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🔥 FATFIRE, Smart, and Happy: Leif Dahleen's Financial Independence Journey 😊
857 Plays6 months ago
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🎙️ David Baughier sits down with Dr. Leif Dahleen, the renowned Physician on FIRE, to discuss achieving financial independence through prudent financial management.
Dr. Leif Dahleen, a retired anesthesiologist, shares his journey from a high-earning medical professional to financial independence and early retirement.
He provides insights on transitioning from a demanding career, the importance of financial planning, and the benefits of a frugal yet fulfilling lifestyle. 🌟📈
🔑 Key Topics Discussed:
⇨ Leif’s journey to financial independence and early retirement
⇨ The challenges and rewards of a high-paying medical career
⇨ The role of frugality and prudent financial management
⇨ Transitioning from a medical career to retirement
⇨ Advice for those seeking financial independence
🔗 Leif Dahleen’s Links:
🔗 David's Links:
🍏 Forget About Money on Apple Podcast
🎧 Forget About Money on Spotify
🕒 Timestamps/Chapters:
0:00 - 🚀 Introduction to Financial Independence Journey
1:17 - 💡 Discovering Financial Independence
2:25 - ⚖️ Immediate Changes After Epiphany
3:05 - 📅 Crafting a Five-Year Plan
5:11 - 📚 Transitioning to Financial Independence Knowledge
10:45 - 💭 Shifting Mindset and Desires
14:12 - 🏥 Unique Challenges in Medical Profession
16:09 - 👤 Identity and Transitioning from Career
16:35 - 🧠 Challenges of Ego and Identity in Retirement
17:16 - 🌅 Transition to Full Retirement
19:40 - 👪 Coping with Retirement and Relationships
21:17 - 🌍 Enjoying Family Adventures
24:34 - 🏡 Building and Finalizing a New Home
28:02 - 🩺 Missed Aspects of Being an Anesthesiologist
30:03 - ⏱️ Transition to New Job as a Timer
38:18 - 💻 Inception of Physician on FIRE Blog
40:11 - 🌟 Rewards of Building FI Community
43:36 - ⚖️ Balancing Work and Family Priorities
46:43 - 🔄 Reflections on Career Path if Not Anesthesiologist
47:45 - 💸 Managing Debt During Medical School
51:50 - 📝 Advice for Starting Financial Independence Journey
#️⃣ Hashtags:
#FinancialIndependence #EarlyRetirement #PhysicianOnFIRE #MedicalProfession #Frugality #FinancialPlanning #FIJourney #FamilyTravel #PersonalFinance #RetirementPlanning #FICommunity #MoneyManagement
🎧 Listen & Subscribe: Don’t forget to subscribe to "Forget About Money" for more insightful episodes featuring experts who guide you on safeguarding your finances and making informed decisions. Hit the bell icon 🔔 to get notified of new episodes!
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Transcript
Introduction to Financial Independence and 'Fat FIRE'
00:00:00
Speaker
Today, Dr. Leith Dalene shares insights from his financial independence journey, the principles of fat fire, and what his life is like after official retirement. Here we go. Welcome to the Forget About Money podcast, where we encourage you to take action today so that you can focus on what matters most to you. On this episode, we have Leif Dalin, also known as the physician on fire. Leif retired from his anesthesiology profession five years ago and has been living the phi life ever since. Today we cover his journey to financial independence through his challenging career, his transition into the retired life, and the advice he would provide a young adult contemplating a career in the medical profession.
Leif's Anesthesiology Career and Financial Discovery
00:00:40
Speaker
Welcome, Leif. Good to see you again. Good to see you, David. And thank you for inviting me. I'm honored to be among the the early guests in your podcast.
00:00:48
Speaker
yeah No thank you very much for taking the time it's been a while since we've been we've spoken and we've always had good conversations whether it's campfire even over email or or telephone. ah so it's Thank you for being a friend over the years and we've seen each other transition. ah through different aspects of this journey. So it's nice to share that experience with somebody else along the way. and For sure, yeah. like our Our friendship goes back to the very first campfire in Gainesville, Florida, some, I don't know, six, seven years ago, probably. Well, today we're going to talk about like how you discovered financial independence and we'll get right into it.
00:01:26
Speaker
How far along in your career as an anesthesiologist were you when you discovered the idea that you could save aggressively and buy back your time leading to financial independence? I had been working as an anesthesiologist out of residency from 2006 until this was about late 2014, early 2015 when I i discovered yeah the Mr. Money Mustache website and then branched out from there and read a lot about this whole concept of financial independence. and So I guess eight, nine years in is where I was at.
00:02:04
Speaker
and I had already been saving aggressively i wasn't necessarily quite sure what i was saving for but i was spending what i wanted ah raising a family not. priing ourselves in any way but probably saving as much or more than I was spending on an anesthesiologist's
Family Lifestyle Changes and Planning for Early Retirement
00:02:26
Speaker
salary. When you had this epiphany about early retirement, what immediate changes, if any, did you make in your lifestyle and finances? And how did your family feel about that or your wife? Yes, I mean, that that's probably the first thing i I did once I really truly ran the numbers and read you know numerous different resources to make sure this was a ah real thing.
00:02:48
Speaker
ah But once I was confident about our financial independence and our ability to kind of do whatever we wanted, because like I said, I was saving all along the way, ah close to 10 years into my career, I really had achieved financial independence about the time that I discovered it. And so, you know, I had a talk with my wife and I said, If i didn't have a job you know what how could life look differently and at the time um we've got two boys and they were maybe four and six years old something like that this is ah almost ten years ago and so we found it.
00:03:28
Speaker
Maybe we make a five year plan and when they're kind of through grade school, going into those middle school, junior high years, which can be awkward for everybody. And, you know, they're old enough to maybe appreciate a little bit of culture and history. Like that's, you could travel, right? And, you know, there are no remote jobs for anesthesiology. Uh, realistically, you can't intubate or place epidurals or do nerve blocks from a distance. ah So I really knew the only way to do that would would be to move on from that career. And financially, I knew we could afford it. So did I make any changes? I paid more attention, I guess, to you know where the money was at and made damn sure we would be more than okay. you know so That was about Fi when I discovered it, worked another almost five years. And by then we were more like double Fi, if you will.
00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah, so your habits ahead of time were already locked in. You just didn't know exactly like where the goalpost was until you saw the Mr. Money Mustache article. I'm assuming it's the shockingly simple math article. That's a great article. Yeah, shockingly simple math behind early retirement. and it is i I discovered it more through mainstream media, right? Because I wasn't going to blogs um until I found an article on, might've been like, money magazine or or one of those types of things um that was featuring him. And then that led me to his blog where I found that article and others. And then other are people like Mad Fientist and Root of Good and a you know a handful of others that were around at the time, Retired by 40 was another one. These were all around back in
00:05:09
Speaker
you know I found it in 2014, 2015, a lot of them started 2011, 2012, about that timeframe. For me, whenever I was like, I kind of knew a lot of this stuff, like basic financial management, i'm like I'm sure you did. But once I, you know you hear the traditional advice of save 10 to 15% of your money until you're 65 and then you can golf until you're dead or whatever it is. yeah But that still never really, that's really the only guidelines that I ever found in books, i like that I read from like in the 90s to the early
Critique of Traditional Retirement Advice and Personal Finance Insights
00:05:43
Speaker
2000s. And then I was like, okay, but I'm like objective. I think about the objective and backwards plan. And that's like no strategy to backwards plans. So what I loved about the financial independence space, particularly that article by Mr. Money Mustache was that,
00:06:00
Speaker
Here's the goal post here's the logic behind it. And now you have an actual objective to work to towards so in your case your habits already got you to that objective and then some without you even necessarily. ah consciously recognizing it. You just ran the numbers kind of after the fact like, oh, yeah, well, we've met that objective. And then some gives us some more options to plan. And you said ah this was about 10 years ago, you and your wife put in the five year plan. And then you've been retired for five years. So it seems like everything is going pretty good to plan. Yeah, yeah, things did go according according to plan. And I like what you said about, you know, it's just logical. um
00:06:40
Speaker
most of the retirement calculators at least five to 10 years ago and before that said that you needed to replace a percentage of your salary of your income, you know, 70, 80% of the common numbers they throw out there. And, you know, when you're making a physician's salary, yeah Most of us aren't spending 70% of it, at least I'd like to hope I'm reaching enough people to to help them realize that they shouldn't be spending 70% or 80% of the $300,000 or $400,000 they might be making per year. And so you know the whole f FI math math is based on what you spend. That's logical, right?
00:07:20
Speaker
um basing it on your actual salary is only logical if you assume you're living pretty close to paycheck to paycheck and maybe saving five to 15% of it ah for retirement, which when you know you're a physician with with good income and also a very late start and usually a lot of debt. And I think we may talk more about some of those challenges later, but you know you you really need to be saving Quite a bit more than 5% to 15% if you want to hope to ever retire and maintain your lifestyle.
Family Travel and Lifestyle Reflections
00:07:53
Speaker
So after you made the decision that you're going to become financially independent, whatever that meant for you and your family, because that's the definition of that is one thing, but what that actually means in each person's life is completely unique to them. when What kind of feedback did you get back from your wife?
00:08:11
Speaker
Was she on board? did Did she kind of like take the reins of this journey with you? Or was she, did she seemingly, was she content just being a bystander? And as long as you were doing what you say you were supposed to be doing, ah she was good with it. Yeah, good questions. And you know she's primarily a homemaker. um She does have a master's in nutrition and ended did a tiny bit of teaching ah back in the day. But as far as income, it was one income. So ah you know me saying that I might be done making income was like, let's make sure this really makes sense. And I i shared some articles with her and we talked about it. and
00:08:49
Speaker
She understood the concepts but she also trusted me i think there is definitely a a very yeah a good foundation of trust and you know she knew i was good with money because we had a mast you know at that point a couple million dollars when we discovered the concept and. So yeah, and and she was excited about what it could mean for us. So what it ended up meaning was that for um the better part of four years from retirement until about a year ago, we were traveling not full time, but
00:09:22
Speaker
ah six to eight months a year, minus some COVID lockdown time that kept us domestic in our little bubble in Michigan here. But ah we did a lot of family travel all over the world and she was super excited to do that. And now our kids are in the school, in person, ah in seventh and ninth grade, finishing that up now. yeah But they still have another three and five years to go before they'll be done with high school. So we're locked into a school schedule and we can't travel nearly as much. so We're glad we took advantage of the opportunity that we had um to you know take the kids out of school for four years, I guess, and and do do the things we did. Yeah, it's one thing that I don't think necessarily gets promoted enough is that we think we have our kids until they're 18. And so we think, okay, well, I could just work a few more years, then you know they're going to be 14 or 15. And then we can bond a little bit more before they're adults.
00:10:17
Speaker
But that's not really how things pan out because by the when the kids are 13, 14, they start distancing naturally. ah We just might not be aware of it as parents. They start to distance themselves from us a little bit to try to find who they are on their own. and you know venture around the world as their own being instead of like as your children. And they're not wanting necessarily to be around you all the time. They need that, right? So yeah, we we figured that those middle school years were a ah perfect time to to take that leap. So when we started traveling, I guess they were nine, maybe eight and 10, nine and 11, somewhere in there. And that was that was a really good age. yeah Has your mind set?
00:10:59
Speaker
or desires or wants shifted over time once you made all these changes. Actually, it wasn't all these changes because you were already well on your way. ah But once you began your financial independence journey, and whether through knowledge, education, your confidence built up that you know this is going to work for you and your family, and maybe if whatever anxiety, if any, waned over time. I mean, one thing I can speak to, I think that that sort of answers the question. As that back when I was younger, like teens and 20s, I used to look at you know luxury cars and mansions and you know these things that like aspirational things that, and well oh, if I had the money, you know I would drive this car or I would you know live in this abode. And then once you had the money, like like, okay, I have the option of buying those things.
00:11:53
Speaker
And we do live in a nice home. When we built a nice home recently, that's always been kind of important to me. But I still don't drive a luxury automobile. um And I could afford a a small fleet of them, right? So I think you know it's the things you can't have are things that you want. And then once you can have them, it's like, hmm, yeah, I'm okay. I'm i'm happy without, right? you And I think that goes you know beyond just a money discussion. forget about money ah But yeah, so as far as, you know, once we reach Fi and beyond and all that, I mean, well, one thing that I did
00:12:35
Speaker
that really kind of supercharged our finances was start to write about the topics of financial independence, right? So you mentioned physician on fire in the intro, um which is now run primarily by a couple of other physicians who um purchased the assets from me, but I still contribute a bit and advise on the website. but I did make money from doing that. So I had a little bit of a cheat code there that I entered ah that maybe made this from, at the time I retired, I i said I was about double five. Maybe it only would have been 1.6 or 1.85. But then I sold the business. Now we're and getting an even better position. So i just I guess I should throw that out as a disclaimer as much as anything.
00:13:26
Speaker
say that I understand that my my um history was a little bit different, but even without ever thinking of a website, if all I had done was consume websites and podcasts and work my anesthesia job, we we would have ended up in ah and in a very good place without any of the additional side income. So I don't want to give people the impression that they need, especially if there are physicians or other high income professionals listening to this, that they need some other ah sort of side gig to make it happen, you know,
00:13:58
Speaker
ah Dr. Jobs pay pretty well on their own. You say Dr. Jobs pay pretty well. However, there's also a trade-off for that. For most jobs that pay pretty well, the trade-off is either stress, other challenges. ah What are some of the unique challenges that you experienced in your medical profession as an anesthesiologist that shaped how you thought about your career and maybe impacted financial planning? Yeah, specifically in anesthesia, it it can be stressful. you know We have a lot of responsibility and you're also kind of at the beck and and call of a lot of different people. you know when a When a surgeon wants to get a surgery done, you need to be there. When a pregnant woman is having a lot of pain and wants her epidural, doesn't matter what time of day it is, you need to be there. ah When the you know nurse on the surgical floor ah says this patient's having
00:14:53
Speaker
you know, whatever issue it may be post surgical and it might be anesthesia related, you know, they're calling you day or night. And so I think, you know, that's sort of a bit of a lack of autonomy. And I mentioned earlier, it's not a job you can do remotely. So it it really does tie you down. ah and keep you keep you very close to the hospital, both physically and mentally. you know You're still thinking about on the case you did
Transition to Retirement and Maintaining Professional Skills
00:15:20
Speaker
earlier. You're thinking about, I'm on call so I can sleep, but will I sleep? And odds are you won't sleep through the night. And that's once or twice a week for you know decades for most people. and for me it was ah
00:15:32
Speaker
well i mean If you go back to like my education and training and career, it was about 25 years, only about half of that was the actual post residency career, but it's a long time you know to be invested in in one thing. and You know, it was a good job, a solid career for sure, but it never was my identity. And so I felt comfortable enough moving on from it. And five years after the fact now, I i can say that, yeah, I think I made the right choice for me. Yeah, there are some similarities in that same mindset. You mentioned that being an an anesthesiologist wasn't your identity. And me, I'm a retired Naval officer.
00:16:20
Speaker
And I see a lot of people either decide to stay in the military beyond 20 years when the trade-offs become less favorable than just retiring at 20 and moving on and maybe focusing on other passions in your life. because I think it's become their identity so that they're hesitant or they're anxious to get out and move on. And I imagine you see the same thing in the medical profession, is that true? Oh, for sure. And some people fail retirement because they are so their ego is wrapped up in what they do. And seeing patients is
00:16:54
Speaker
what they do and being a doctor is who they are. And without that, they feel a little bit lost. And so yeah, it absolutely happens. So you've been financially independent by your definition for, well, I guess we could just say retired because you have not taken on any other major roles for money ah for five years now. Can you talk about that transition from like a year before to now, like what was going on and how do you feel about it? Yeah, and so it's been five years in August that I worked my last shift in the hospital as ah as an anesthesiologist. It's been a little over a year since I ah sold physician on fire. And so I considered myself semi-retired for those first four years or so, um because I did have, I would say i put in 20 to 30 hours, you know what it's like to create content, right? It's ah what the people see is just a ah fraction of what you actually spend your time doing. And it was something where we were able to do our travels. And I really didn't alter our itinerary based on, oh, I need to write this blog post. I just squeezed it in. you know I wrote um on planes and you know at night when the kids were in bed or first thing in the morning while our kids were doing schoolwork and sort of that sort of thing. and So ah it was a very flexible kind of position. But really, I think I've only been like truly retired for the last
00:18:21
Speaker
a year or so um So the transition was very gradual for me, but there was a definitely a weight off my shoulders when I left anesthesia and felt okay about it. I definitely for the first two years maintained licensure board certification, like CPR and advanced life support, all these different like certifications. so I got as much of that kind of like re-upped before I left so that it would be very easy to return in the first year or two. um After a couple of years, you're kind of at the point of no return, especially in a procedural specialty like anesthesia or surgery or, you know, interventional like radiology, cardiology, anything where you're doing a lot with your hands throughout the day.
00:19:09
Speaker
couple of years after not doing those procedures, you're not going to be as good. ah It's as simple as that. you know um Not to mention the ah you know the what you need to know. um But that's that's a little bit easier to keep up on and you know whether or not you're practicing it. so And I've also heard that malpractice insurance can be very difficult to obtain if you've been ah out for more than a couple of years. So I kind of knew I had reached that point of no return after two years and I had no qualms at that point. So I said, no, I'm good. This is going well. Finances are fine. They're going to be fine.
00:19:47
Speaker
ah You hear stories about people retiring and then being in the house together, like driving each other crazy. How did the transition from working all those many hours to being at home affect your relationships inside the house? Well, we got out of the house, right? So um pa hello it may have put us even closer than if we had stayed in in you know the house we had in Minnesota, which is where my last job was. um But rather than maybe both being in a 3,600 square foot house, well, we were traveling and spending a couple months in Mexico in a 1,200 square foot apartment and in Spain and 800 square feet with our kids and doing things together throughout the day. So we were more together than ever. ah Thankfully for us, that was not a problem. We we get along really well.
00:20:38
Speaker
I feel like we've raised our kids in a way that they are respectful and know to get their work done and to be reasonably responsible for for themselves and their actions. So I know what you're describing. It didn't didn't happen to us, though. But to that point, I should say, it is important to have your own hobbies, your own friends, things that you do during the day that that take you like to go outside or hey you know you're not just sitting in ah in a room all day. Of course, no one's going to spend their retirement fruitfully if if that's all they're doing and sitting on the couch. I know that's not what you do. That's not what I do. You're very grateful for the time that you were able to travel with your family. Can you describe part of your adventure with your family that
00:21:26
Speaker
you will never forget or that you really, really enjoyed. Yeah, all of it. but And i'm I'm kind of an amateur photographer, so I actually carry a real camera around and take pictures, so I ah have all the proof and all the photos to look back on. ah Most of our travels are slow travel, um so we go somewhere for... ah two to four weeks at a time initially. We thought we had lots and lots of time, right? So um the first trip was the fall of 2019 and we went to three different cities in Mexico for a total of two months. And then we went to Spain and we spent time in each of the three largest cities over the course of of two months, Valencia, Madrid, Barcelona. And then COVID happened, right? And so we were kind of locked down. And then when we get got back to international travel,
00:22:16
Speaker
in it was early 2021. So there was basically about 10 months before the vaccine was actually made and approved and available um that we didn't do much at least international travel and not that much domestic travel. um But then we felt like, well, our time has been cut short a bit. Now we're down to two two and a half years. And so our trips were a little quicker. um I think the first trip in 2021, and of course it was at the peak of Omicron. But as long as we had our vaccine cards and our N95 masks, we were not afraid to go anywhere. And we're allowed to go pretty much everywhere. um We spent more like a week in each place. I know we went to
00:22:59
Speaker
ah Malta and Sicily and Athens in Rome in that trip. And then, ah well, my son had braces, so we had to be back every eight weeks or so. ah So that's another reason our our trips were not quite as lengthy. um Probably the most impressive place that we saw in terms of just natural beauty was New Zealand. We spent about six weeks there on our last a big trip, mostly in the South Island and a week or so in the North Island as well. It's just green and lush and you've got
00:23:37
Speaker
waterfalls everywhere and fjords.
Building a Home and Community Engagement Post-Retirement
00:23:40
Speaker
It was just and was pretty great. But I love the history in Europe. and One regret I have is that we didn't get to spend much time in Asia. That was on our list. um Pre-pandemic, a big seven-month trip. We had two cruises, one going over there, one coming back, and like five and a half months in between to do as we please and that whole trip just got the kibosh so it didn't happen but all of it was great and yeah I'll always have the memories always have the pictures and our kids I think will really benefit you know now and going forward just having a more kind of global awareness you know knowing that there's there's life beyond the borders of our county and our state and our nation
00:24:29
Speaker
ah So you've experienced in your family's experience life beyond the borders and across the pond. yeah But your most recent project is you just finalized your the building of your own home. And that is a stressful but rewarding adventure again, I imagine. ah dealing with contractors. and We had done this once before um when I got my first like permanent doctor job. I did Locum Tenen's work, which was travel work for two years, um and we decided to come back to one of the places that we had worked at temporarily.
00:25:06
Speaker
and while we were still traveling we we're building a home and that was a little bit tricky because we were a couple states away ah for a lot of it and then i worked out a deal where i would come back and work one week a month in that town while the house is being built so i got to know the contractor then in the subcontractors and. It turns out we were able to hire the same builder who uses the same subcontractors. ah Even though we're about 80 miles away from where we built the first house, they live in between. In northern Michigan, people are used to traveling 40, 50 miles you know just to go to a job. and so
00:25:44
Speaker
ah yeah So we we were familiar with the people involved in building this house and they did a great job. It took a little bit longer because we built kind of on the back end of the COVID pandemic and there were some supply chain issues still being resolved. And and people were who had been sidelined mostly for work now had, you know, everyone had their stimulus money, the stimmies, whatever it was. the The workers are in short supply as well. So it took 16 months to build, as opposed to about nine months, the first time we built. But the house turned out great. um and We're on a lake near Alpena, Michigan. And it's very close to a lot of my wife's family. And it's a good-sized house, but not not ginormous, not the McMansion. Good size for the four of us. We'll have plenty of space when the kids move out. But you know someday, maybe, you know
00:26:45
Speaker
They'll come back, grandkids, whatever it may be. I wonder how many what percentage of people can actually say if they're building a house that we didn't really have that many issues. No, the delays were a little bit frustrating and getting a well drilled took a long time. But ah no, i yeah know twice now we've had a good experience and it helps to know the people that you work with. And my wife's family, ah they worked in building homes and remodeling homes. And so they knew these people as well.
00:27:15
Speaker
um And with the first house, they were directly involved. So that's a lot of lot of things. It's about relationships and people, right? you know And we have good people and a good relationship with them. I know you didn't tie your identity to your work, but what do you miss about working at and as an anesthesiologist, if anything? I'd say the primary thing would be the people I worked with made a lot of friends at different places that I that i did work and and that I did train and get my education. and
00:27:49
Speaker
and you know it's I'm not the most extroverted person, but I do like hanging out with people. and and You get that at work and you don't necessarily get as much of that when you're not working. um So the people would be number one. and i think it doesn't mean I'd say I don't miss it as much as most people probably would, but um there is some respect that physicians still get. I think a lot less than they did 20, 30, 40 years ago. ah But I suppose ah in in some ways I miss people like looking to me to do this important job for them or for their loved ones. And you know I don't really get that my day to day these days.
00:28:32
Speaker
Yeah, there's a lot of things that you're saying that basically mirrors what I experienced. Yeah. Yeah. And they didn't again, like to me, it's not that big of a deal. Like I don't, I don't need that respect. I don't need that validation in in my life, but I suspect you're a similar kind of of a similar mindset. Yeah. but But after, but it is something you notice like after even you could be, you know, and You could analyze it, you can sort of be objective to it and understand where that fits in your personality or or the experience side of it all, but at the same time, and you and you can believe that you're going to be completely okay outside of that, which you are and which I am, but it's still something you notice. Like, oh, I mean, I know and I'm probably going to sound like pompous or whatever, but like,
00:29:16
Speaker
so people saying sir to you at your work, like for me as an officer or salute or standing in front of a large group of people giving a speech or giving training or just being in that role of a of authority and respect. And you just don't have that outside. because and And that's okay, but it is something that I do notice. And luckily for me, while I'm very proud of my work, it also doesn't define me as a person either, but it is something I noticed. yeah And then I was like kind of surprised I felt that way a little bit too, because
00:29:50
Speaker
I mean, if anybody can distance themselves or like be stoic or compartmentalize, I'm probably like a pro at it, probably to a detriment. But it's still something I noticed going through. I'm like, oh, I kind of do miss that a little bit. i'm um i Maybe I'm a little ashamed to to admit it, but yeah, I do miss it a little bit. Well, sure. And like i have I have a new job. I'm a and a ah the timer for the track events at the high school and middle school. So I've worked at four afternoons and I'm done for the year. I'll probably do it again for the next year but this good chat coach saw me taking pictures at one of the meets is like.
00:30:24
Speaker
and And my wife is already a volunteer coach for the middle school. And he's like, hey, do you think you can come hang out with me next time? And I'll show you how to run this computer and camera system. And it's pretty neat, actually, the way ah it works, where people cross the finish line and you capture each one, then you assign a time and make sure it gets ah published to the website and and out in real time and all that. And it's actually really intricate. and you're like the rate limiting reaction in keeping the meat going because it can't continue until you've assigned these times and make sure you can. Excuse these runners and get the next ones lined up and so but you know some working that job now. um and did it Yesterday and you know these kids are just like walking right to me hey can I scratch it and I'm right in the middle of like you know focus on this computer just just like hey hey you i'm like I talk talk to someone else I can't I don't know that right so people don't.
00:31:17
Speaker
It's not like, oh, excuse me, Dr. Darlene, could I please? Hey, this kid said, I don't know. It's not me, not my problem. Talk to somebody else. I'm not the authority anymore. My next question would have been, even though you just answered it, would you ever see yourself returning to the workforce in some capacity? But now that I know that you're employed, that's the highest goal. I'm going to make dozens of dollars for a year doing that, right? So I don't think that really counts. um Yeah, so as far as in min medicine, I think I've already answered that too, that that that ship has sailed, um which is fine by me. Although we do need good doctors, so I don't want to convince too many of them to follow in my footsteps. But I do think it's important to get your finances right. And um I love the freedom and flexibility I have, you know.
00:32:05
Speaker
um Every morning I do some body weight exercises I've been running consistently. ah i mean not well This year, all all year, and and most years for a good part of the year, just you know you have the time to you know get a little bit of fitness in and work on fun projects and ah things that you want to get done. I just installed a garage door opener on a You know, our house across the street, which is the one we had while we were building the house. And now it's rental, but it had a manual garage door on the attached. And, you know, I don't want people have to lift that garage door up manually and close it themselves. and Now they can push a button.
00:32:49
Speaker
ah you know, to have time to figure that stuff out. I added a couple outlets in there too, because it was, I needed one on the ceiling and kind of needed one on another wall too. Anyway, just to have the time to do those kind of things, I don't want to be tied down to a nine to five or a six to midnight, which was the anesthesia job quite often. ah But, you know, there there are always little little opportunities that may come along, whether it's, ah you know, something that that I choose to do, like,
00:33:20
Speaker
mean Here I'm doing a podcast, not a paid thing. but um yeah yeah you know you you find You find things to fill your time that are but fun to do. and so I wouldn't want to take 40 plus hours of my week and you know direct that towards ah something that's going to make money that we don't necessarily need if it's going to take away from the things that I enjoy doing for myself and for my family. when i first founded out about the financial independence community and going to different blogs, trying to read up, trying to get smart on certain things.
Understanding 'Fat FIRE' and Leif's Blogging Journey
00:33:53
Speaker
you know I stumbled on like the different types of fire and your site and you kept coming up as an advocate for fat fire. i don't know if that was
00:34:05
Speaker
how you originally intended or you're just reflecting your own journey and then how that fits into the framework of the different types of PHY. But can you describe what PHY is and how it differs from other forms of financial independence? Oh, yeah, for sure. And I think that is what I was going for when I started writing about it because ah as a physician, we you know enjoy a ah good salary and I also and knew that I spent more than the average household, even as a quote unquote frugal physician, you know compared to peers. I was spendthrift compared to you know the average average family. And so fatfire was a term that I wasn't familiar with when I started the site. I discovered it via a Reddit, I think it's a Reddit group, fatfire. And I was like, oh yeah, that that does fit perfectly with what I've been
00:34:58
Speaker
kind of talking about And essentially what it is, ah you can look at it a couple of different ways, but it's fire for higher spending people, more or less, higher for typically higher income people as well. And some people look at it as like, well, it's a maybe spending twice as much as as the, I shouldn't say twice as much, just just a higher level of spending compared to, you when I first started reading about fire, it was mostly be frugal, be really frugal, save money. And I focus more on the earning side and be reasonable with your spending. That fat fire for a family might be spending $100,000 plus per year, therefore having at least 25 times that
00:35:47
Speaker
meaning 2.5 million plus as your nest egg. Or I can mean to some people like having a lot more than you need to be five. So maybe you're not spending quite six figures, but you have 5 million plus in the bank. And so you have 50 plus years of spending. And some people look at that as being fat fire. But ultimately, it's just a just a bigger number, whether it's the nest egg number, the spending number, both. ah It's just the financial independence piece without an emphasis on frugality, on absolute frugality. Hmm. You mentioned a frugal physician. I was wondering, i was as soon as you said that, I was like, I wonder, if did he debate that as a...
00:36:27
Speaker
as a URL or a blog name when he was going through position off grid. I did and now there is a gal dr viha sp who like ah took that moniker, made it her own. And I've told her before I did consider that. And I didn't use it because I think a pigeonholed things in love too much. um Because that wasn't really what I was about. It was more about the financial financial independence piece and having options you know in life and frugality plays a role there, but it's not frugality for frugality's sake. And yeah most people with higher incomes don't want to be you know preached on on the topics of frugality and that sort of thing. They think they're beyond that or above that. I don't necessarily agree, but I i was worried the name might turn off a large portion of my intended audience.
00:37:22
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think when we hear the word frugal, the very next word that comes into mind is cheap. And that's just the way things have been framed. I don't i don't personally believe that either, but I do understand that that's the logical next interpretation of that word from a majority of probably people who are using search engines to find information. Right. And, you know, the my audience doesn't really have a need to be overly frugal. right? Yeah, the coupons might might feel good to those of us who enjoy getting a good deal, but it's not gonna make a big dent in your path defy when you're making multiple six figures a year. We talked about your fat fire and we talked about your profession and so it's a logical overlap of the Venn diagram of like if you're going to start a blog, this is the kind of blog that you would start.
00:38:10
Speaker
But what did persuade you to start Physician on Fire and has it met or exceeded your expectations or did that change over time as well? I didn't find a Fire blog speaking to really what I was looking at and thinking about. So again, now I started the blog in early 2016. And at the time, there were only three or four other physicians writing the about personal finance ah of any kind. and And none of them were talking about financial independence much at all. The white coat investor um who became a mentor and friend of mine, ah Jim Dolly, he had one article that said 14 reasons not to retire early, something like that. and
00:38:54
Speaker
um Outside of the physician blogosphere, which was very small, there was the fire blogs, and they were primarily frugality-based. Mr. Money Mustache at the time was spending $25,000 a year for a family of three. and you know The others were really in that $40,000 and under spending range when they would talk about it. And I was like, oh, we're spending at least one and a half, two times ah that. And that's having after having all of our debts paid off and everything else. No mortgage, no student loans. And so, like, yeah, no one's really talking about fire for me. you know Normal to high normal kind of spending range. And that's what I wanted to create. so
00:39:36
Speaker
ah it It was a success very early on and just a lot of people I think it resonated with. It was a message that wasn't out there so much. And yeah, it was one of those things where I told my wife, I said, yeah, I think I want to do this. And she said, go for it. And I said, well, you tell me when I'm spending too much time on it, you know, because I know it. I know how I am. I kind of dive in, you know, the deep end head first. She's like, well, I already know you're going to spend too much time on it. Just do it. and just you know Give it a shot. If it pans out, great. If no one ever finds it, at least you tried. What's been the most rewarding aspect of of building and maintaining the online community focused on financial independence?
00:40:20
Speaker
I would say it's definitely the the people, ah that the community, the people that you find and meet and and get to know and become lifelong friends. you know and ah yeah we've We've definitely visited folks when we've been out traveling and had meetups with other people that we've met through the FI community in different places in different parts of the world. and ah you know People have come and visited and stayed with us and we've stayed with them. and I know I've invited to you and talk and talked to you about having you and and your family come out and see us in Michigan. So yeah we can make that happen.
00:40:54
Speaker
Me too. At this point in your life, you've had your career, you've met your financial objectives, goals. What's next for you? like Is it just sit back, relax? Do you have other things that you want to do? I believe at one point you had invested in a brewery. Is that still a thing? And like what entrepreneurial endeavors do you think that you might want to get involved with going forward, even if it's not for money specifically? Right. um The answer to the brewery question, me yes. invested as a as an equity shareholder in one that actually changed hands right around ah February 2020, I think right before the pandemic, um which at the time I didn't realize it, but that was good timing on their part. um And I loaned money to another brewery that just changed hands. And so ill I'll get a little money back on that. So that's pretty much done, although I got more than my share of free beer out of those deals. And and that was fun.
00:41:50
Speaker
um As far as what's next, I don't have any big plans in terms of businesses or any anything of that sort. i
00:42:02
Speaker
You know you'd listen to, what's the podcast, How I Built This? um with Guy Roz. I don't know if you know that one, but yeah, it's good. But he talks to founders and CEOs of ah usually like name brands that you probably have heard of, or if you haven't, you probably will at some point. um But really just about you know where this idea came from and how they enacted it. and you know He always asks if it was luck or skill that and led them to where where they are today. um But I don't have any grand plans of anything like that. I'm going to run my second marathon this fall, Twin Cities Marathon. And we've got these kids that keep us pretty busy. Like today I made Rice Krispie treats for their fall or for their end of the year banquets, both of which are this evening. I'll have to jump from one to the other, um one junior high, one high school.
00:42:53
Speaker
um you know And just just keeping up with them. We've got a trip to Peru and Machu Picchu right when they get out of school in June. And we're going to August with them and and some family. in we're going I'm sorry, we're going to Alaska in August. So little trips while we can in the summertime. And then just just getting these boys through school. And then I think the next chapter, next big phase of Now, our lives, my wife and me will be when and we have that empty nest and have the freedom again to travel for longer stretches of time, which will be exciting. I think, I mean, we're we're two males. We're probably roughly the same age. I'm not sure how old
Parenting Benefits of Financial Independence
00:43:37
Speaker
you are. I'm 46 and my son is 10. So um I think about what, you know, Wi-Fi, like for if anybody's listening to this and particularly from,
00:43:49
Speaker
the father standpoint, like I don't know how many times a week it crosses my mind. Like I'm so glad I'm not working because I can do this with him, for him or around him. And I would not be able to do that if I had to go to a nine to five or you know or longer. Or it'd be much more difficult. you know well yeah My wife and I are juggling you know these school schedules and you know she sometimes does some childcare for a toddler in the family. and
00:44:20
Speaker
and neither one of our kids is driving and they go to two different schools. And their school starts super early, like 720. And we said, no, we're not doing first period because that's ridiculous. The but the bus picks up at 5.55 a.m. in our neighborhood. And no, the kids need sleep, right? So we said, okay, they'll start a second period. We drive them in, right? um To their two different schools and pick them up after practices. So there's a lot that goes into raising kids just from the
00:44:52
Speaker
coordination, chauffeuring, making yeah rice crispy bars, whatever, ah yeah you know besides all the love and attention and and everything else. Yesterday, my younger son had ah um oral kind of an oral surgery procedure, tongue-tie thing. and And I was there holding his hand in the in the dental office while it went out. And that was 9 a.m., 10 a.m. when I'm sure people can get, you know, a half day off work, but you don't get unlimited half days off, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and that's, and I'm, of course, he appreciates that you're being there for that.
00:45:31
Speaker
seemingly or probably a somewhat traumatic experience, at least definitely different and stressful experience for him and that you're there to comfort him, yeah where many dads may not be able to. In my case, just over the last few months, I've been able to coach my son's little league. And that's for anybody who's ever been a coach, I thought I was just going to be like, okay, practice and show up for games. Now it's like a 20 hour a week investment of time, not to mention like mental time. So if I was dealing with parents as well as kids, right? Oh yeah, oh yeah, why isn't so-and-so playing? Well, because they're not that good. and So yeah, it's a, but I couldn't imagine doing that on top of like the mental bandwidth that would be so much more limited if I had a job that, you know, required me to put my energy and effort towards that. So I'm grateful for my son that he's got me there. I'm grateful that, you know, that I'm able to experience that while he's growing up. So ah but for anybody out there who's like wondering,
00:46:24
Speaker
for people who are extremely competent and good at their jobs. And they they wonder if they should step away from that to focus on family. I'm a huge advocate for that. And it appears that you are too. And so do not hesitate. ah You can always, if you really miss work that bad, you can always go back after they turn 14 or 15 and no longer want to hang out with you anyway. yeah If you're still competent. If you weren't going to be an anesthesiologist, in retrospect, what would you have
Alternate Career Paths and Advice for Medical Professionals
00:46:48
Speaker
done? Oh, okay, that's a that's a that's a good question, but one that I hadn't thought too much about because it's just what I did. It turns out I like writing, you know, and so maybe I could have been an author of some kind, but it's not really something that you you fall into, you know, you don't you don't go to school to become an author. I guess journalism is one route to that. but
00:47:11
Speaker
I don't know if that was ever me. I was always a math and science-brained person. And so I think it would have been something in that realm, maybe engineering. I do like to kind of optimize things and make them as good as they can be and improve things all the time. And so I think I often think like an engineer, even though I don't know that much about the field. And there are many different types of engineers, obviously. um Yeah, but I think that might be a route that would have made sense for me had I not taken the long, long route of going to medical school and residency and all of that. When you were going through medical school, school did you take on debt and how did that look for you? I i did, yeah. look The average nowadays, of course, I finished medical school in 2002, so that was more than 20 years ago.
00:48:00
Speaker
um And I had about 60,000 in school debts, but I got through undergrad with ah full tuition scholarship and some other scholarships, the Bird Scholarship. Anyway, I got through without debt from undergrad, thankfully, going to the University of Minnesota, got my gopher's towel back there, um stayed there. in-state tuition for medical school as well. um It costs some money, but as compared to most people, I definitely had less debt then, and certainly a lot less than people come out with now, which is about $200,000 in debt. That's the average indebted medical student is what they have, a name and even that number is probably a few years old. so
00:48:48
Speaker
I carried that for a while, it was very low interest, and when I took a signing bonus for a job in South Dakota, I just paid it off with one fell who one big check. I said, okay, I'm done. And you don't regret that because I know a lot of people try to like, you know, ah this percentage, I can get this here, interest rates might be low here. Let me game it. It's kind of like the paying off the mortgage question, you know, if you have 2.75%, you know, 3.5% mortgage, ah you could probably make more money in the stock market.
00:49:19
Speaker
ah or investing in real estate or any other number of things. But I have enjoyed being debt free. That's something that even in building this house um kind of happened while we were selling the position of fire business. So I was able to pay a cash for the build. um I know that financially there are It's pretty easy to run the numbers and see how you could come out ahead and doing things differently, but I kind of like living debt-free as well. If you were advising high school students or young adults considering pursuing a medical profession, how would you shape that work-life balance and financial planning conversation?
00:50:02
Speaker
Well one thing that i think is changed as you know the millennial generation has come into their own and with different priorities than like jen x is which which is what you and i are. um I'm forty eight by the way so i just have two years on you. um they They definitely have different priorities and cherish their free time more and want that work-life balance more than maybe our generation and the Baby Boomers did. And so they've already helped change the landscape a bit and made ah the training conditions a little more humane, I would say.
00:50:41
Speaker
um And so but whereas 20, 30 years ago, employers would not have expected any pushback from doctors on how much they're going to work and what kind of hours they would keep. and you know how residency would would be for them as far as having a day off after call and and other things that we maybe didn't enjoy so much. um It's gotten better, so I'd say it's gotten better. um Not still it' work very hard, but ah the the ah job maybe isn't quite as onerous as it is it may have been when I was coming out.
00:51:17
Speaker
And even then, like they had started to change some duty hours things in residency back in the 2000s. So I think it's only gotten to be a little more of a known entity and physician burnout is something that everybody is aware of in the medical field. And they're at least on the surface level trying to, or at least saying they're trying to do things to alleviate that. Yeah. taking a big step back away from the medical profession, just as an individual who has gone through this journey, what ah what is one piece of advice that you would give to someone who's just starting on their financial independence journey, ah let's say in their 20s, and then maybe one piece of advice for somebody who's starting their financial independence journey at the age that we are right now?
00:52:06
Speaker
Well, for both of them, it's really, yeah you know, I borrow the phrase from the London tube, it's mind the gap, right? Mind the gap between your earning and your spending specifically because what determines how long it's going to take. And it goes back to that Mr. Money Mustache article right that that you mentioned, the shockingly simple math behind early retirement. um it's It's your savings rate. It's the difference between how much you earn and how much you spend. And you can impact that by either earning more or spending less. And some smaller things like you know knowing how taxes are paid and levied and and and doing things to ah improve your tax situation if you can.
00:52:46
Speaker
But mind the gap. So in your 20s, well, if you want to be financially independent in about 15 years, that means living on about half of your take-home pay after taxes, right? And if you're in your mid to late 40s as we are, well, um you may want, you know, you're probably kind of established in in some ways in your spending habits and they may be hard to make drastic changes there. People do it, but most people would not be able to. um So I would focus more on the earnings side, especially as a 40-something year old who might be more established in their ways. And you know if that means changing jobs, even changing locations, if that's an option, which it is, it just it's going to come with some downsides probably that you may or may not want to live with. but
00:53:39
Speaker
um you know if you want to retire early and you're in your late forties. After about ten years you know you're not really retiring all that much early right so yeah so you gotta make up for lost time and and that's probably going to mean earning more and potentially maybe moving to a lower cost of living area if ah if that is feasible. Holy, if you are one of the ah brilliant minds and cool personalities in the space, ah having seen you and and visited with you at some different events, I appreciate your friendship and I appreciate you taking the time ah to talk to me today. And thank you all for watching and listening.