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🤦♀️ "Die With Zero": Millionaires Only, Please! 🤷♂️
778 Plays3 days ago
⚠️ In this episode, we break down Die With Zero by Bill Perkins, exploring its bold advice to spend rather than save. Is it a life-changing philosophy or a steamroom chat among the elite? We critique its core concepts, discuss why it might harm the average person’s finances, and suggest practical alternatives for living a meaningful life.
Watch and Subscribe on YouTube
💎 Whether you’re curious about memory dividends, time bucketing, or how Die With Zero contrasts with financial independence principles, this episode offers an honest, fun, and critical analysis.
In this episode, we discuss:
1️⃣ What is Die With Zero? Exploring the premise of spending for experiences over saving and the concept of memory dividends.
2️⃣ Time Bucketing and Peak Health: How to align life experiences with physical and financial milestones.
3️⃣ Who Die With Zero is For: Why it resonates with millionaires but may miss the mark for others.
4️⃣ Critiques and Alternatives: The pitfalls of its spending advice and practical strategies for financial independence.
🔗 Carla’s Links:
🎙️ Guy Lombardo -- Enjoy Yourself, It's Later Than You Think
🔗 David’s Links:
🏖️ The Fun Bucket Strategy: How to Spend Money in Retirement! | Mark Trautman & Kevin Sebesta
📘 Die With Zero: Nope, because it isn’t worth your money (unless you are a millionaire). If you must, go to a library or just listen to podcasts and blogs about it.
🍏 Forget About Money on Apple Podcasts
🎧 Forget About Money on Spotify
#financialindependence #personalfinance #bookreview #diewithzero #billperkins
🎧 Listen & Subscribe: Dive into more episodes where we explore financial independence, frugality, and living meaningfully. Hit subscribe and tap the bell 🔔 to stay updated!
📜 Disclaimer: This podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only and is not financial advice. Always consult a qualified financial advisor before making significant financial decisions.
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Transcript
Introduction: Carla's Financial Philosophy
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Forget About Money podcast. Carla, are you going to die broke or have millions in the bank? You know, I would like to spend my very last dollar on like a stick of gum right before I kick the bucket. That's the goal here. That's what I'm going for. No, that's actually not my real answer. But I am excited to talk about this book, Dive at Zero, because man, it has really been making the rounds in the financial independence community. And I see lots of people talking about it on the internet. So yeah, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts and just have a little interesting discussion about this because I think it's definitely discussion worthy.
Exploring 'Die with Zero' by Bill Perkins
00:00:36
Speaker
Die with Zero is one of those books that, as you mentioned, a lot of our peers have read and embraced at least much of it. And we'll talk about that too. But it took me forever to read the book. I've only got the audio book, listened to it over the last couple of weeks, like one and a half times. I can see where people are drawn to this book, but I can also see where this book might actually be harmful to some as well.
00:01:03
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a good way to kick things off is just to talk about sort of our overall big takeaways. And I think maybe we should start with the positive takeaways from this book. So what are some things that you got out of this book that you thought were actually beneficial to the way you think about your finances and how they will sort of stretch out over the course of
Money, Children, and Longevity
00:01:27
Speaker
your life?
00:01:27
Speaker
For the person who doesn't who hasn't read the book, the basic premise of Die with Zero is you aim to spend your money so that you fully enjoy life's experiences without leaving excess wealth behind when you die. That's the gist. There's a lot that goes into that.
00:01:45
Speaker
ah home For me, before reading this book, I was already thinking about certain things in my own situation, financially independent at age 43. I'm 47 now, so it's been three years plus. And I have a son who is going to be 11 in a month and a daughter who's 21. So in this stage of my life, I'm wondering about things like when to give money to my children.
00:02:10
Speaker
How much do I really need to live on to do whatever makes me happy in my, from now until the time I die, let's assume 90 for planning purposes. So for the next 45 years of my life and then how to tactfully manage all of that as you trudge through this thing called life and then the justifications for or against. So a lot of things come up. I know in society, we generally tend to give, at least as I, as I was growing up and understood it, you saved a bunch of money. And then when you died, your kids got a bunch of money.
00:02:40
Speaker
That's like the very vanilla way I've thought about it growing up because that's just what I heard about. Anytime somebody died, the next question was, how much money did you get? Maybe not really, but you thought it. if yeah you know How much money did they have to leave a lot of debt? Who's responsible for what? You got wills, you got trusts.
00:02:56
Speaker
So as I entered this portion of my life, I'm thinking about all of those things for me. And many of our friends in the financial independence community who I've never over read the book, they're like, Hey, you just need to read this book because it covers some of that.
Memory Dividends and Time Bucketing
00:03:08
Speaker
It'll broaden how you think about those things. One of them was some people that had brought the themes up and the concepts to me were Kevin Sebeista, Mark Troutman. And the biggest thing that they wanted to important on me is this thing about memory dividends.
00:03:22
Speaker
So in finances, you have an investment. That investment pays dividends. Some percentage, usually pretty low, but still a return, a benefit for that financial investment. Memory dividends result from experiences that you have with loved ones that carry you into your older ages. And you look back on your life thinking that was a life well-lived because very few people die thinking,
00:03:48
Speaker
I should have bought more stuff, but many people do regret not spending more time with loved ones or doing things that they say that they wanted to do during their lifetime. So for me, that is probably the biggest takeaway I got from reading the book. How about you, Carla?
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a great and thoughtful answer. And I really like that message of the book as well, which is to think carefully about the resource that resources that you have, how you're going to use them over the course of your life, and whether there are things that you could do now that would bring you more satisfaction than doing when you're older.
00:04:22
Speaker
Yeah, he talks about this concept of time bucketing, which is to think about your life in stages, which I think a lot of us intuitively do already. But I think he really crystallizes that thought for a lot of people, myself included, which is to think very seriously about what your physical condition may be like when you're 55, 65, 75, 85 and make sure that you don't save a ton of money to do things when you're 85 that you can't physically do anymore, right? well And there is this song that I really like for the most part and think is just absolutely perfect in the way that it encapsulates
00:05:05
Speaker
the concept of Die with Zero. so The song is called Enjoy Yourself. It's later than you think. and It was originally put out by this person named Guy Lombardo. and I'm just going to read the first like stanza of the song. I'm not going to sing it for you guys. I'm going to do you that favor. But here's how it goes. You work and work for years and years. You're always on the go. You never take a minute off to busy making dough.
00:05:29
Speaker
Someday you say you'll have your fun when you're a millionaire. Imagine all the fun you'll have in your old rocking chair. And I think that's basically what Bill Perkins, the author of Die with Zero, is trying to say in his book. Like, yeah, don't put things off until you have a bunch of money when you're just sitting around in your rocking chair and you have no desire to travel to Morocco anymore, or you have no desire to You know maybe go to new york and see a bunch of broadway shows like these things are just too physically taxing for you to do you just wanna stay at home and do something quiet so i really really like that concept and i think more people should focus on that so i think that is a very helpful framing.
Living Life Fully: Experiences vs. Wealth
00:06:14
Speaker
that I took away from the book and that I enjoyed from the book. Warning, the song, Enjoy Yourself It's Later Than You Think, gets a little weird and a little dark towards the end, so keep that in mind as you listen. But I think the whole concept overall is just like a perfect encapsulation of Die With Zero, so it's a fun song that everyone should go listen to and they can just be surprised by the weird turn that it takes.
00:06:37
Speaker
So the idea of the rising wealth with the declining health, if you imagine that being a graphic question, I think there might be one in the book or you can find them online. yeah But that is a very overt planning factor to consider that we really don't, at least I know I did not think about that during my accumulation phase.
00:06:56
Speaker
yeah And I don't think necessarily you should think about that during your accumulation phase, but it is something you absolutely should consider in the book. He related to like peak wealth and then peak health or something like that. So peak wealth ju traditionally would be much later, especially if you remain frugal and in your lifestyle, but your peak health really is between like 45 and 60 or something like that. The age ranges might be a little off, but it's something like that.
00:07:24
Speaker
So if you think about the graph that, you know, one goes up, one goes down for that planning that kind of puts it, especially for the analytical visual learners, all those things, it it puts a, like almost a reality because just what if in the future mentality of like, yeah, one day, one day I know I'm not going to be able to do that thing. One day I know, but when you actually see that graph, you're like, well, that one day might be right there.
00:07:45
Speaker
Yeah. And what am I doing right now? and that And that may not be too far from where you are right now. And then, okay, well, if that if that assumption is true and it it is plus or minus, very likely, then I need to either keep doing what I'm doing or do something different, but I need to be aware of how much my future options may be limited if I wait too long to do those things in life that I say I want to do.
00:08:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think it just sort of puts it into sharp relief. And I i also found it really helpful that he does talk about the specific ages that most people are at their peak health, because I think just seeing it there in black and white, like, Oh, I'm in my peak health between 45 and 60. I mean, probably you're in your peak health when you're in your twenties, but you just like realistically can't afford to do anything when you're in your twenties from the vast majority of people. So yeah, like once you've,
00:08:34
Speaker
had a chance to accumulate some wealth. Where am I in life and how much how many how many good years do I really have left? And then thinking like, oh, I'm already in my 40s. I'm in this moment right now. like I need to be focusing on how to use my resources to do these things I really want to do.
00:08:51
Speaker
I also think it encourages people to really think about what kind of adventurous things they would enjoy doing and making some sort of a bucket list or just sort of a general idealist. These are the kinds of things I might want to try. Do I want to climb mountains? Do I want to try skydiving? Do I want to go scuba diving? like These are the sort of active things that are just going to get harder the older you get. So yeah, instead of putting off these trips to maybe amazing tropical destinations where you could learn how to scuba dive and have an amazing time until you're 65, maybe do it when you're in your forties instead. And then you've got more time to enjoy it and you'll be younger and healthier as you start it. So yeah, i I think it encourages you to make that kind of list.
00:09:41
Speaker
which is really an exciting, fun, and healthy thing to do in life, I think. And it also encourages you to get out there and do stuff now. If you can afford it, if you're at that place where you've got the money sitting there to do it now, don't wait until you're much older in the rocking chair, like island part, I would say.
00:10:00
Speaker
Carl, I don't know if you've actually done it as far as like actually written out your time bucket, these five year chunks or 10 year chunks or whatever it is that represents your life. If you were gonna do that, what would that look like for you?
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, I have not gone through this exercise. I do have sort of a general list of things that I want to accomplish in life. I would like to try scuba diving. That's definitely on my list. So yeah, that's something that I would like us to do, you know, roughly in the next 10 years for us, lots and lots of travel. We kick around the idea of maybe doing the Colorado trail. We we do enjoy backpacking and that it is an ongoing conversation in this house of when we will finally pull the plug on all income and start chasing some of those dreams. But it is a balance that we keep in mind. You said pull the plug. I thought that was funny. That's true. What about you? Have you done that mapping exercise and what are some of the things on your list that you want to do sooner rather than later?
00:10:59
Speaker
and And this is another big value that I was listening on to this on the plane coming back from Georgia. And I had just spent a few days with my brother and his kids and Quentin was with me and we had a really, really good time. It was one of the but happier times I've had in recent history. Don't get excited. I'm not like depressed all the time or anything, but it just had a really good time.
00:11:17
Speaker
I love seeing the kids hang out. So it really made me think about how much time do we have with all of them as kids or close to kids? And how do I frame? How can I spend my money and time now to help maximize those interactions between them before they're all adults and dealing with their own lives uniquely?
00:11:35
Speaker
I would say I would divide it between now and the time that my son probably turns 18. So another seven years or so, seven, eight years. That also marks when I can ah plan on leaving California as well. Cause this is where my son is. So there's a, there's a couple of milestones that around that mark that would make this an easy delineation point. But what does that mean practically for the next seven, eight years? Well,
00:11:58
Speaker
if I want him to have those experiences ah alongside me and he'll grow up doing his own life, well, I should prioritize those things now. I'm very fortunate that I'm financially independent, that I don't spend most of my day at work, that I get to pick him up from school and spend the afternoons with him and nights with him and mornings with him. But what else can we do to maximize that benefit and build our own relationship while he also stays connected with the broader family?
00:12:22
Speaker
So I'm thinking through those, I'll figure out what we can do, maybe some trips together. Maybe I invite them. One thing I just asked Stephen was like, Hey, what if we rented a place in Mexico City for a month over the summer? How much of that time do you think the kids could come out and just be together in a new environment and have an experience? So that's kind of like a twofer. They get the experience of new culture, new place. Quentin's Mexican, so he can get engulfed in his own culture, which I love that very much. Yeah. And they get to spend time with each other. So things like that. That's what I'm looking for for like the next seven years.
00:12:51
Speaker
Those are all really amazing goals. so Yeah, I'm sure those kids would remember that forever. If you guys had that experience of living in another country for a whole month, I'm sure that would be extremely memorable, which I think is another important point that the book makes that I did want to highlight of just like those memory dividends that you talked about.
Transferring Wealth and Financial Education
00:13:12
Speaker
I mean, in the end, that's really all we have is our memories, right? Like, I think that is an incredibly important thing to focus on. And just approaching every day with how am I going to make this memorable, I think is a pretty healthy way to live your life. So I like that a lot too.
00:13:27
Speaker
Another concept that they touched on and I've definitely been thinking about was I'm not rich, rich, but assuming compound interest, I'm going to do all right over the next 45 years. And that puts me in a position to either spend a lot more money on me or use that money for someone else. And in my mind, that someone else is primarily my kids. There are some other people in the financial independence space that I respect very much. Doug Nordman, Jill Collins, Paul Merriman, and they all have ideas about generational wealth. So something I'm, a question that I am asking myself is how do I transition that wealth in the smartest, most practical way possible?
00:14:06
Speaker
And Die with Zero, the author proposes that the best time that your kids can use that wealth, I think it was between 26 and 35. So practically what that means for me is in five more years, or my daughter will be around 26. A few more years after that, my son will be up there. So thinking ahead now and trying to do some projections on you know balancing my own living expenses, how much can I and should I or even will I transfer money to them in that way so that it can be of maximum benefit to their lives? I'm okay with dying with zero because I'll be dead. It doesn't matter to me. But I do that you can think through how to use your money because just as we use it right now for our own lifestyles, it's a tool. If you're going to be dead, you're not going to need it. And if you can live your life, if if you're at a point where your net worth provides for your the lifestyle that you want, not skimping a lifestyle that you've designed that brings you joy. And then you want to give money to your family. I think that's just fine.
00:15:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think that can be a great use of your funds. And the approach of giving money to people while you are still alive to watch them enjoy it just makes so much sense, right? As long as you know that you're going to be comfortable, that your needs are met, like why would you hoard it like a dragon instead of giving it to someone who will get so much more use out of it? And also, you know, giving children money when they are no longer really children, when they're like in their mid 20s,
00:15:38
Speaker
It's just gonna have so much more leverage for their life right that can help them avoid going into major debt to do things like going to school or buying a house helping them out at that critical stage of life where they're just starting to accumulate where they're just starting to work.
00:15:55
Speaker
I think is so invaluable and just so much for more rewarding to you as the giver too. And, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with prioritizing the enjoyment that you get out of your donations too. But it's just a win-win-win, like no one is no one is losing out here. So yeah, I really think that makes a lot of sense. We don't have kids, but we do have nieces and nephews that we really love. and That's something that we may think about as they get older, they're all quite young right now, but as they get into their older years, we may think about whether it makes sense to give them some money to help with things like school and just, you know, see how we're doing at that point and whether it makes sense. But that to me feels so much more rewarding and better for the kids. So yeah, just as a good thing to do all around.
00:16:43
Speaker
We've all heard stories about people dying of wealth and then their kids either blowing it or in fighting or whatever reason. It's just, you they didn't, maybe they didn't know their parent was wealthy and it was just a surprise lump sum dropped somewhere and somebody's lapped and then they, two years later it's gone because they didn't know how to manage it. I think this is another way to mitigate the downside risk of that happening. For for example, say you start, you have one child and you start giving them $20,000 a year. It's probably not assuming you you're in the million dollar range, I guess.
00:17:11
Speaker
It's not going to derail your lifestyle. Well, it may not. Likely it won't. I think it's much better to have child from, when I say child, I mean, 26, I was probably a child until I was about 28. And then I just became less immature after that. yeah That's a whole other conversation.
00:17:27
Speaker
But yeah, that's a really good point. this Yeah, it gives you some control over how they think about that money. And it also sort of acclimates them to having a little bit more so that it's not one giant windfall all at the end there when you're not around to help them figure out how to ask to use it anymore. And hopefully they remember all the things you told them about how to invest money over the years. But when you're not actually there, but the money is, it's just harder to keep that stuff in mind, I think, for a lot of people. Think of the wisdom of somebody, the practical wisdom of somebody who actually thinks through all this and then starts to execute it. ah fell How can that person not look up and like respect that person for their financial acumen? I mean, if they've got half a sense, right? So if I'm 26 and I get $20,000 a year for 10 years versus I get $300,000 15 years from an now or 20 years from now when my parent dies or whoever dies, well, that's us just, it's ah it's a shock to the system if you if you wait. And you're right, the mitiging I say mitigating downside risk of mismanagement.
00:18:23
Speaker
Right. Maybe they're already farther in debt or they've made poor financial decisions or maybe it made good financial decisions, but it still makes more sense to go ahead and get that amount on their side of the ledger so they can grow better for them. And then they could do the same thing for their next generation when the time comes. But I think that's a very smart way to and just transfer not just transfer money, but transfer knowledge about money.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah, I also think it might help the family dynamic a little bit because I've certainly seen and heard of situations where, you know, you have like this wealthy, wealthy, older patriarch and they sort of just allured their money for it the younger generations. and so power yeah Yeah, you better be nice to me. You better do what I want or you won't get a penny. I think it decreases that a little bit. It probably doesn't totally take it away, but I think it helps mitigate that dynamic a bit. so You just made me think about the movie. I think it was an Amazon Prime movie called Knives Out. Did you watch it? I haven't, but I actually did want to see that. It looks good. Pretty good. Yeah, I'll check it out. okay so All this is super positive. We're singing the praises of the book. Are there things that you do not like about Die with Zero? and If so, what are they?
00:19:32
Speaker
I did not know the author was a hundred millionaire. Is that a, is that the right word for? So yeah, I'm so out of that circle that I don't know what it's called. I don't know. He's got a lot of cash sitting around. and Let's put it that way. Yeah. He is a very, very wealthy gentleman. I think the very first line, the very first line of this book should have been unless you are a millionaire, don't buy this book because it's really pretty much a waste of your time.
Audience and Criticism of 'Die with Zero'
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah, I feel that way for sure. And you know, when I think about people who are just starting in their financial journey or who are maybe trying to turn their life around and make changes to get themselves on a path to better financial success, this is 1000% not the book you give those people that it's just not helpful. It's not helpful at all. In fact, I think If anything, it might just make people angry like, well, I'm never going to be this guy. So why do I bother? So yeah, I do think that is a major strike against the book is that it's written for, I'm going to say probably about 4 million people in the United States would get a lot of benefit out of this book. And what are we at now? 330 million people in the United States. That's my guess as to how many humans would actually get real value out of this book.
00:20:46
Speaker
I was introduced to a concept that I did not know before, and that is the concept of consumption smoothing. Have you heard about this? I have not actually explained it to me. It's the idea that your lifestyle so lifestyle spending should remain constant almost no matter your income.
00:21:04
Speaker
Oh, he did talk about this in the book. Yes. I apologize. It's been like a year since I read it, or give or take, but... He actually promotes young people spending... I don't i don't want to put words in the author's mouth, but it it it came off to me that spend whatever money you have while you're young, it's fine. That's kind of how I interpreted. And then the inner financial independence guy in me was like, what? No, what are what are we doing here? Yeah. He tells a story about when you, I don't know if it was his first job or one of his first jobs, but he worked on the floor of a, on a trading floor, sort of like the runner on a trading floor. And the story he tells is he's living in this apartment. He's making a little bit of money, but not a lot, but he saved some money. And I think he says he saved a thousand dollars. Then he went to his boss and got a thousand dollars saved or something like that, thinking it'd be a proud moment. And the boss would be happy.
00:21:51
Speaker
And then the boss basically tells him he's an idiot for not spending the money. That's something I just could not wrap my hand around my head around. And it threw me off. And I think it seemed disingenuous, especially now that I found out he's a hundred millionaire, like $400 million dollars a guy's worth.
00:22:06
Speaker
okay And we it just seems like the trajectory of life havevis life is not the masses. So when it comes to messaging this financial literacy to the masses, as in writing a book that shows up on Amazon or on a shelf in a bookstore, that doesn't say if you're not a millionaire, don't buy this book. I think it's disingenuous to think that your experience is going to be equally valuable to the masses or even practically useful because yeah in his case, it just isn't.
00:22:32
Speaker
Well, I think he's also not thinking about, about it from a fire perspective either. Right. So he, I think his thought process, if I'm remembering this correctly, which I think I am is look, when you start out, you're not making a lot of money, but as you advance in your career, you'll make a lot more. So when you're younger, just go ahead and spend basically all of it. And then you can just sort of, you know, gradually increase your spending as you go so that it's,
00:22:58
Speaker
Yeah, like more of a ah smooth upward curve, but that obviously just flies in the face of everything we think about in the financial independence community, which is take advantage of the power of compound interest when you're really young, save as much as you can then, and then quit your job at some point. So you're not on this like constant upward trajectory where your income just keeps going up and up and up at some point, you cut that off and you go enjoy your life and say, I'm good, I got enough. So yeah, I am for sure not a fan of that concept as well.
00:23:27
Speaker
I will let just one teeny tiny little caveat to that. When I graduated from law school, I had lawyers tell me people had been practicing for a while. They said, go travel a lot this summer between graduating and starting work, which actually seems kind of silly. I think maybe it was more like in your early summers, although you're doing your like summer internship, Jefferson, I don't actually remember when they wanted me to travel, but at some point they wanted me to like take some time off.
00:23:56
Speaker
before starting my big law job and put it on a credit card. Don't worry about money. You're going to be making a lot of money. Go enjoy that time right now because you won't have that time again for a really long time. and I thought, I'm not putting money on a credit card. You guys are crazy. I would never do that. I'm way too financially conservative. and In hindsight, I actually think in that limited circumstance, they were right. like I was about to be making a big paycheck and I was about to have zero time. and I kind of wish I had traveled and taken advantage of that time back then.
00:24:25
Speaker
So if you're in an unusual situation like that, maybe do take advantage of that time. And this gets back to time book getting that he talked about, like you'll never be that young again, you can go have these experiences that you just really can't have when you're older. So maybe that's my one caveat that I do agree with that. But in general, no, man, when you're young, these are your years to save, like you should be accumulating like crazy, then that's my general take.
00:24:49
Speaker
Yeah, my issue is that people aren't people aren't making a ton of money right now. So how how can you justify can you justpoint not saving? yeah We're already not saving. As as a society, we're already not saving. i i totallyflation not Out of control inflation. You've got housing that's at all-time highs across the board pretty much or darn near close to all-time highs. You've got wages that have not kept up with inflation. You've got credit card debt at an all-time high.
00:25:16
Speaker
So even if you had, you're really going to say if you've got an extra thousand bucks, your life is going to be better if you go below it. That's what he's saying. And I'm like, but I don't know. I don't get it. Yeah. I'm not really sure how a smart person can even say that without being disgusted at themselves. I totally agree. And yeah, if I had done that traveling, which i I didn't do before I started work, I mean, I think we would have been talking like a few thousand dollars. I could have,
00:25:40
Speaker
Covered it after my first paycheck certainly after my second paycheck like it all would have been fine But that yeah, that's a very like small limited exception. I would make in general I think it's just terrible advice so the other point that I know we wanted to both hit cuz I think we both agree with this is that he talks in the book about how money unspent is life unlived and that message to me is just made me crazy. I thought I could not disagree with that more. And if you're putting ah advice out for the masses, that is not the advice that I want people to be getting. The more they spend, the more they'll enjoy their life. And I actually wanted to make a recommendation for another book that is just the total antithesis of that advice. It's called The Art of Frugal Heathenism. It's by Annie Roser Rowland.
00:26:30
Speaker
and Adam grub. They're a married couple, they wrote it together. And it is just this delightful book that talks about how to really maximize your enjoyment in life while not spending a lot of money. And yeah, the fact that Bill Perkins has hundreds of millions of dollars and is talking about, you know, the example that really stood out to me was he threw this huge party Someone like the caribbean and he flew his whole family there and he had some huge artist who i forgot know who it was but some huge musical artist common like perform any had this amazing time you know ah great party like multi day long party.
00:27:07
Speaker
Like what the heck man i think that's great for you were all excited that you got to do that that sounds super fun but that is not the level of wealth that virtually anybody else in. The world is either striving for is ever going to have so yeah i think from his perspective maybe money and spent his life and lived in some weird twist away but i don't see it that way at all.
00:27:30
Speaker
I think there are so many ways to enjoy your life. Have it be fulfilling, rewarding, full of wonderful people, wonderful experiences, fun challenges. like There are so many ways to enjoy yourself and not spend any money at all or certainly not a lot of money. Certainly not the kind of money you drop on a multi-day party in the Caribbean with all everyone you've ever met when, I don't know, Beyonce, whoever comes to perform.
00:27:54
Speaker
So, yeah, what are your thoughts on that phrase, money unspent is life unlived? I dislike it because I believe it prioritizes money. and equate It equates money and life. Money, if you just take out unspent, money equals, and and I think that's a really sloppy way of putting it. Not that money is not important. We know money is very important. That's why we're doing this. That's why we're having this podcast. and Yeah.
00:28:18
Speaker
That's why we've made the decisions we've made in our own lives. But to equate it, life is irresponsible. And it doesn't have to be, you can live a good life and not be wealthy. absolutely so I think that's just a, it's just a wrong, it's a wrong statement to make.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yeah. So I would certainly encourage people to use their funds wisely and do the things that they really do enjoy at a time of life that they can't really enjoy them. But I think he just takes that concept a little bit too far in some ways, like to the point of equating money with happiness.
00:28:50
Speaker
and money with life even more fundamentally. And yeah, I think I don't remember there ever being an acknowledgement in the book where he says, this is not the level of wealth that most people are going to have. So let's bring it down to most people's experience. I think he kind of just talks about his own life. And yeah, I think more acknowledgement of what, what a more typical experience is like would have been helpful to you. But maybe that just means you and I need to write a book, David, and write a die with zero. That's not about throwing lavish parties in the Caribbean.
00:29:20
Speaker
instead of Die with Zero, we'll name it Live with Abundance. I love that. I love that concept. There are times in the book that he flirts with it like saying, this may not be for, this may not be for, but it still has an overall package. I think it's just irresponsible because this is a book that many people have bought. And I think knowing that that's going to be, and I'm sure that's the goal whenever that's everybody's goal when they write a book.
00:29:44
Speaker
to him. Great. You wrote a book, got it published. Awesome. And it's a very popular book, but knowing that it should have been written with more care and perspective. Yeah, I agree. And some more caveats. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like we said, I think, so we talked about that number, about 4 million people in the United States will probably get value out of this because there are 8.8 million millionaires and the, no, no, no. Percent of the population is millionaires today, right? Something like that. Of course, I've seen 8.8 Okay. So yeah, we were thinking like roughly, roughly half of those people actually have access to more than a million dollars, like in investable assets. And yeah, like those are the kinds of people who are actually going to get some value out of this book. So we're talking about a very, very small percentage of the population. So 4% of the population, give or take not 4 million people, 4% of the population. I think I misspoke earlier, but yeah, I think that's,
00:30:39
Speaker
Is it worth writing a book for 4% of the population? I don't know. It's an interesting question. As someone who thinks about messaging financial literacy, which both of us do, we have a podcast, I've got a website, your circles of people are very influential. And so it's something that's always kind of on our minds. And so we also have to be very aware of being, not misleading or maybe disingenuous, but reading the room. I think that's just what he didn't do. He didn't read the room before he wrote this book, but it's important to do that.
00:31:10
Speaker
There are books that I've read though before that I would say are great books and only in hindsight, if I were to read them again, that wouldn't be as impactful being Rich Dad Poor Dad. Robert Kiyosaki has all but become some conspiracy theorist, the loon, money grabber, promotion guy. I didn't know that. That's interesting. I just haven't seen his stuff. I knew he wrote Rich Dad Poor Dad and that is the full extent of my knowledge of him.
00:31:35
Speaker
But I credit that book for getting me into the mindset of thinking about all of this. So while we've critiqued mostly positive, some negative about the divers Die with Zero book, I do not want to take away from the message. my My problem is how it was messaged and not knowing, not being clear on who the audience is. But I did learn from the book and I will use some of it as we discussed to hopefully improve and my life between now and the time that I i would zero or almost
Balancing Saving and Spending
00:32:06
Speaker
zero. Yeah, I think there are some good takeaways and I think for the right person it can be a very helpful book. One example from my own life of a time when I probably should have prioritized my life experience instead of just saving, saving for the future is we recently flew to visit family for Thanksgiving and
00:32:28
Speaker
We booked basically the cheapest flights possible, one of which was on Frontier Airlines to come home. It was a 10 PM flight, which meant that by the time we actually got home, it was about two in the morning. Very unpleasant. I am not someone who can normally just about it two in the morning. And yeah, we had to like pay for our carry-on, which meant that we packed fewer clothes than we otherwise would have. I was actually quite cold when we got back home to Colorado because we'd been in a really warm climate. I primarily packed for that. and yeah like When we got home, but it was in the like high 20s, I think, and you know we're like waiting for the shuttle outside. and
00:33:08
Speaker
there's There's just a lot of ways that I could have prioritized my comfort and happiness and my sleep over money, but we just couldn't resist. Like it was, I think, at least half as expensive as all the other flights because it's a around Thanksgiving, everything's more expensive. So yeah, that is my frontier airline story in my own confession as to how I could spend more now to prioritize my life's happiness instead of just saving it all for some later date.
00:33:35
Speaker
But I'm curious, I don't know, have you ever flown Frontier Airlines? Do you have any thoughts on them or just flights in general? and I have. And it's usually, I've flown to, usually use Frontier if I'm flying from San Diego to Denver. Because I think that's the Denver, the hub. It is. So it's pretty quick flight short. But if I was going to check luggage or do anything other than just throw a backpack over my shoulder and and walk on the plane and then get my little,
00:34:04
Speaker
with no leg room and pray that the person in front of me doesn't need to move back for three hours. Yeah, I mean, I would fly frontier again, but you get what you pay for, you really do. I just flew to Georgia over the Thanksgiving holiday and it was through Alaska Airlines and I was liking it. I bought the tickets, regular tickets, and I was like, eh, I must have, somebody, there's probably something about a memory dividend. I upgraded to premiere. I'll tell you what, six foot two, you're just about this much space between my knee, if any, between my knee and what's above in front of me. And I don't know how many times I've like the scene from it when they try to go back. I can't stand it when they don't even turn around and ask at least, give me a heads up for you ran my knees. Yeah. I'm that guy. Anyway, there was this much space between my knees and the seat in front of me and premiere. And that would be good enough. But when they came and did the drinks, I was like, I'm not sure how this works. Can I just get a Coke? They're like, all alcoholic beverages are free. I was like, yes, please. So had a couple drinks. So I will always, if I fly Alaska Airlines, do the premiere if I can. It is very worth it. It wasn't that much more money.
00:35:15
Speaker
Interesting. I will keep an eye on that and think about it for future flights. It's hard, man, when you're sitting there looking at those numbers and it's like $700 for one seat and like $200 for the other. it's i can't I can't turn that Frugality button off very easily. I really want the $200 ticket. ah Don't put it behind the Frugality button. Put it behind a different button and and click away. Redefine that in your life.
00:35:38
Speaker
I will work on that, David. I'll work on that. Okay. So you're up in the air. You're like up there close to the clouds. So as I'm flying on frontier airlines and trying to distract myself with how close my knees are, even at five eight, my knees are still very close to the person in front of me on frontier. My mind wanders to the subject of alien life. So I'm really curious. Talk to me about aliens. Are they out there? Are they among us? What do you think?
00:36:06
Speaker
When you were thinking about aliens, was the window open? You were looking out or were you looking in the cabin at the other people? that were A little bit of both, a little
UFOs and Extraterrestrial Life
00:36:15
Speaker
bit of both. Yeah. Well, actually we had a weird thing happen on the flight yesterday where some guy was in the exit row seat and he had his headphones on when they're doing the thing where they have to ask you if you're okay, you know, doing all the things you have to be able to do, send the exit row seat. And the flight attendant tapped him on the shoulder and said, I need you to take your headphones off and you know talk to me. This is the part where you have to talk to me.
00:36:36
Speaker
And he like blew up at her and told her not to touch him. And so she just asked him to move to another seat. She was like, all right, you're up. You don't get to sit in the emergency exit row. But you're dodging my question about alien life. What do you think? I honestly don't give it that much thought to it because it's fair of influence and all that. But I do think it's a little naive to think and very self-centric or earth-centric to think that we are the only living life's forms in a universe that we don't even know that much about.
00:37:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's how I think about it. And if they want to hang out and fly over and do some weird stuff in the clouds, get some good granny footage or do stuff for military cameras to pick up all the better. I think they actually didn't just like admit that there are UFOs.
00:37:20
Speaker
I wouldn't say it went quite that far, but I think basically Congress like did what declassifies some documents and some footage and we're basically like, we don't know, guys. We don't know. There's some weird stuff with this guy. We don't know what it is. I'm of the same opinion as you are. so One of my all-time favorite movies is called Contact, who came out in late the 90s, Jodie Foster, Matthew McConaughey.
00:37:43
Speaker
And it's based on a book that Carl Sagan wrote. And what I think one of the best lines in that movie is, if it's just us, it feels like an awful waste of space. And I just, I love that line and I love the idea that, yeah, there's so, so much room out there. Hopefully there's lots of other life out there thriving. It'd be pretty sad if it really was just us, but I am not one of those people who thinks they are among us. I mean, who knows? I do fully acknowledge that Congress has said, we don't really know what some of these things are, but I also think There's a lot of weird unexplained phenomena in the world. Like, why does somebody get upset about being tapped on the shoulder when they're sitting in an exerow and they have to talk to the airline stewardess? Another great mystery in life. So there's lots of mysteries in life. Maybe this is one of them, but I don't know the answer to it. I don't know if they're here. But man, I really, I really hope they're out there. That would make me happy. I also hope if they're friendly because then it gets scary. But yeah, I think the idea of there being more life out there is kind of exciting.
00:38:40
Speaker
If you could add a few tweaks to the E.T. story, particularly how E.T. acted or looked, what changes would you make? Oh, what a fun question. So when I was a kid, I thought E.T. was absolutely terrifying. The way his, do you remember how his neck kind of grows? And scream, right? Yeah, I thought that was the scariest thing ever when I was very young. Now I think E.T. is adorable, but I maybe would have made him a little less scary looking because I feel like it was geared towards kids, and kids thought he was quite scary. You were like, Exorcist is my favorite movie, but I just can't. E.T. is too scary. he Can't do it. Yeah, I'm not a horror person. The Exorcist has scarred me for life. I saw that way too young as well. Maybe Elliot should have gone with him at the end of the movie instead of staying back here on Earth. That would have been a fun one. Yeah, then they'd have a sequel when it came back. Heck yeah. I don't know. What changes would you make? Wait, why isn't there a sequel? They've had sequels about every other movie. That's so true. Not E.T. 2. It's because it's perfect all on its own. You can't improve on it or make it any better.
00:39:37
Speaker
Except for the scariness, right? You make them more cuddly. Do you remember they had plush animals? Oh yeah. But I do remember they had, it was a marketing thing. Yeah, we had one. It was a skittle or an M&M. There you go. So next time we're going to talk about a simulation hypothesis. How do you feel about that?
00:39:56
Speaker
Oh, I don't know. I do you think there is a decent chance we are living in a simulation. But i want the more I think about that, the more I think, okay, what how does that affect my life? like I can't do anything about it. It feels real to me. So if it's true, I guess it doesn't really have any implications on my life. I don't know. I think it's an interesting concept and we certainly can't rule it out. like I don't think we're that terribly far away from creating these kinds of simulations and our reality.
00:40:25
Speaker
So we obviously can't rule it out. I don't know. What are your thoughts? I'm not smart enough really to think about it. That's not true. I know that's not true. I generally don't think I am like it gets so different levels of awareness and i don't evolution and science and computer programming languages. And as soon as I start to see that kind of stuff, I'm like, I'm backing out. I'll just be, I'll just be a player. What is it called? Non something character, non player character or something like nbc the NPC I just roll around in a little world.
00:40:55
Speaker
Yeah i like that approach to yeah we can do anything about it it's not like you can break free of it so okay it's my reality what do i care how it's generated i guess i mean it's fascinating like i would love to know if i could know but i pretty sure i can't know so.
00:41:12
Speaker
not going to waste my life fretting over it. I guess even if it is a simulation, we still have to play the game that we're in. And for me, one of the best ways to win this game of life that we're all stuck in is to get your finances under control. So I think, yeah, thinking ah about the way you want to spend your life and the way your money ties into that is incredibly powerful. And Die With Zero is a good kickstart, I think, to have some of those conversations.
00:41:42
Speaker
That's a good closing, Carla. And I would like to say to everybody listening that both Carla and I do believe that no matter how much money you have in your bank account, that you should aim to live a life of abundance. So thank you very much for listening and watching. Like, smash, subscribe, comment, notification bell. I don't think I've ever actually said the word notification bell. There you go. Carla, thanks for hanging out again. Yeah, it's my pleasure. I'll catch you guys next time.