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🌿 Practical Stoicism: Turning Adversity Into Strength With Jonas Salzgeber! ✍️
696 Plays6 days ago
🧘 Practical Stoicism helps us navigate life's challenges with clarity, acceptance, and emotional resilience. In this episode, Jonas Salzgeber shares how Stoic philosophy can guide us in managing anxiety, aligning our values, and flourishing through virtue and mindfulness.
Watch and Subscribe on YouTube
In this episode, we discuss:
1️⃣ Misconceptions About Stoicism: Why Stoicism is not about suppressing emotions but fostering awareness and regulation.
2️⃣ Key Themes in Stoicism: Virtue, control, and personal responsibility as pathways to flourishing.
3️⃣ Stoicism and Anxiety: How Stoic practices combat the stresses of modern life, including social media and consumerism.
4️⃣ Self-Reflection: Discovering your best self through introspection and mindfulness.
5️⃣ Gratitude and Perspective: Reframing challenges and embracing life’s inherent complexity.
6️⃣ Cultural Perspectives: How Stoicism resonates differently across societies and lifestyles.
7️⃣ Practical Meditations: Techniques inspired by Stoicism to regulate emotions and find inner peace.
🔗 Jonas Salzgeber’s Links:
📘 The Little Book of Stoicism: Timeless Wisdom to Gain Resilience, Confidence, and Calmness
🧘♂️ Mastering Flow: Perform Better, Experience More Joy, and Live a Happier Life
📝 Notable Quotes
🧘 "Be well, despite all the luxury." – Jonas Salzgeber
🤔 "You don't really know whether something is good or bad because you don't know the future. Life is more complex than we know or will ever understand." – Jonas Salzgeber
✍️ "If you didn't learn these things in order to demonstrate them in practice, what did you learn them for?" – Jonas Salzgeber
🌱 "You can always at least see something as a challenge for you to grow, even if it's really difficult." – Jonas Salzgeber
🛡️ "Take responsibility. For the Stoics, you are responsible for your own flourishing in life." – Jonas Salzgeber
🧠 "If it’s not right, do not do it. If it’s not true, do not say it." – Marcus Aurelius
🌊 "Seek not for events to happen as you wish, but rather wish for them to happen as they do, and your life will go smoothly." – Epictetus
🎁 "Don’t take life for granted; treat it as a gift and use it well." – Ancient Stoic Philosophy
🎯 "Focus on what’s within your control and accept the rest." – Core Stoic Teaching
🔗 David’s Links:
✍️ Stoicism: The Philosophy of Financial Independence
🍏 Forget About Money on Apple Podcasts
🎧 Forget About Money on Spotify
#mindfulness #personalgrowth #stoicism #practicalstoicism
🎧 Listen & Subscribe: Join us for more episodes exploring Stoic philosophy and its practical applications for modern life. Hit subscribe and tap the bell 🔔 to stay updated!
📜 Disclaimer: This podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only and is not financial advice. Always consult a qualified financial advisor before making major financial decisions.
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Transcript
Introduction to Practical Stoicism
00:00:00
Speaker
We've all failed at reaching a particular goal. We've all experienced rejection, and we've all had things we wanted or desired not go our way. Normally, we hold on to those emotions, and we allow those emotions to keep us from becoming the best version of ourselves. Today, Jonas Salzgeber will explain the practical stoic philosophy that helps us reframe our experiences and thoughts so that we may embody confidence and calmness, even in the face of the toughest of times. Welcome, Jonas.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello, David and Carlin. Thanks for having me. but Thank you very much for being here. Yes. We're very excited about this conversation. I have been interested in Stoicism for a few years now and I think it's just fascinating. So yeah, it's a really good approach to life in my book and I'm really excited to hear you sort of expound a little bit and tell us your thoughts on Stoicism. so Great.
00:00:53
Speaker
Jonas, I think a big misconception when you think about stoicism or stoic, especially for people who who have not heard of or looked into the stoicism philosophy, is that stoics suppress or reject all emotions, striving to be an unfeeling or indifferent human being. Is that true or is there another truth?
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, there's definitely another truth in historic philosophy. I mean, just thinking about this, I wonder if people really believe you know that this philosophy that they really aimed at being an unfeeling being and not having emotions at all, because if you think about this, that you don't feel anything, it's terrible and life, it wouldn't be worth living.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah, a feeling sad and not feeling anything wouldn't be something you'd aim at. And it's not something the Stoics would have aimed at, from my perspective. And if you read, for example, Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, it's all about how to deal with them with these emotions, of how how to tame, you know rather than suppress them, how to to deal with them in a way that's you know, more supportive when when you can remain true to yourself despite feeling these emotions. So I'd say it's much more about taming this inner wolf I write in the book. So we want to be feeling. We don't want to let the feeling take over. So we do or say things that we'd rather not do or say, you know, that we couldn't speak of with honor that aren't true to ourselves. So the Stoics, it's true that they
00:02:38
Speaker
They said that strong negative emotions the passions they they sometimes get in the way and they put reason a bit on the throne for me a little bit too much so they put reason up really high and the emotions much lower but maybe test to do with with how they live back then and.
00:02:56
Speaker
They might be lived with, you know, tyrannical emperors who had people killed because they felt like it. So that's probably why they put reason up so high. But generally, it's about still being able to live true to yourself, to your values, despite feeling these emotions. It's about emotional regulation, basically. So you don't want to have a heart of stone or not be feeling anything because this life would suck and wouldn't be worth living at all.
00:03:28
Speaker
Yeah, I certainly agree with that. So I wonder if you can just add a little bit of context for us before you get into more of the the basics of what stoicism really means and how to incorporate it into your life. Can you talk about how you first were introduced to the concept of stoicism and what was it about this philosophy that really grabbed you and just made you want to spend so much of your life dedicated to this these concepts and ideas?
00:03:56
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So it was in the face when I was reading loads of books and I stumbled upon stoic philosophy first through Jonathan Haidt's The Happiness Hypothesis, but I didn't really, you know, I get hooked. I didn't get hooked on this philosophy because he's written only a little bit about it, a couple of ideas.
Discovery of Stoicism through Literature
00:04:18
Speaker
And then it was Ryan Holiday's book,
00:04:21
Speaker
The obstacle is the way, which is based on an idea from Marcus Aurelius that what stands in the way becomes the way that basically your challenges are here for you. They become your way and you you need them in order to to learn and grow and all these things. So it was Ryan Holiday's book.
00:04:39
Speaker
the obstacle is the way that they introduced this philosophy to me. And it was a couple of ideas that that really fascinated me. For me, I had this understanding that you can be really calm and you know present despite the storm you see around you. you know Many things going on and there's stressful events and challenges in life, but you can stay with yourself clear-headed and moved maybe internally, but not so much externally. So
Stoicism: A Modern Practical Philosophy
00:05:10
Speaker
this is the image ah that I had that I found um intriguing. but And then i as I was reading so much and I'm a reader, I don't listen to podcasts so often. So I read a lot of books and yeah, it just resonated heavily with me. It's like,
00:05:31
Speaker
you know That's what I hear from many people that you know I have been a Stoic all my life, but I just didn't know about it. so And maybe in a way, I was similar that I i had already a couple of ideas you know in my life that maybe originated in Stoic philosophy. So it really resonated with me and still does today.
00:05:54
Speaker
and the people that you have conversations with about this practical Stoic philosophy, and I keep saying practical because I can't think. I'm sure there are other philosophies out there that people use modern society, but I'm most familiar with Stoicism, and to me, it's a very practical way of looking at yourself and the world around you.
00:06:15
Speaker
So that's why I keep saying practical because it's so useful. In your conversations with people about stoicism, do you sense that they were looking for something or is it that they just found it and it became interesting? The reason why I ask that is There's so much so much frustration, angst, anger. Think of road rage. You think of the person at the counter at the Starbucks being rude or whatever it is. There's a lot of emotions running high and stoicism as a way to reframe some of those things or at least how you respond to those things. Are people do people see stoicism almost like as a way out or is it just more of like an academic pursuit for them? You know, the way life works sometimes is
00:06:59
Speaker
bit mystical to me. you know I find that books or ideas get brought to you in some mysterious ways sometimes. So I find that many people, they they find my book or they find other books about stoic philosophy or they they somewhere read a quote or something from stoicism and it speaks to them. So I find that it happens you could say by chance or by life giving you maybe something that you can find ah valuable. That's a bit how I see it because I like it this way. So I'm not sure if people are really looking for new things and or how to deal with emotions and they will stumble upon this philosophy. Maybe it happens more natural. I find it gets brought to you by life
00:07:49
Speaker
in a way or by a friend or that you find it somewhere and then yeah you start reading and it resonates and then you dive deeper into the topic and find it really valuable.
Stoicism's Role in Managing Anxiety
00:07:59
Speaker
yeah So one thing that I am curious about is whether you have found, but either in your own life or with people around you, that stoicism is helpful in alleviating issues like anxiety, right? I think, at least in the United States, the prevalence of anxiety has absolutely skyrocketed. People are on medication for it, they need therapy for it, and you know it's a very real problem that people face in their lives. and ah
00:08:29
Speaker
It certainly seems to me that it's become more of an issue in our modern society where we are constantly just bombarded with advertisements and social media and just moving pictures of every kind. I think the pace of life has become much more frenetic. So I'm just curious if you have seen stoicism help with that, if you've seen it help people maybe break some of their addictions to social media. Yeah, any thoughts on this topic?
00:08:58
Speaker
Yeah, so I would say it definitely can help you we with ah these things and you know stop you from spending so much time on social media, for example, because at its core, I find that it's about conscious behavior, the stoic philosophy, because you It makes you think about what you do and it makes you think about your values and whether you know there's is some consistency between the two you know between what you do and between who you'd like to be or the things that you believe to be important.
00:09:34
Speaker
And then you will find or many people will find that spending time on Instagram or social media isn't something they really value highly. It's just something that happens because it's just the easiest thing to to do. And if if you're not so deliberate, if you're not so conscious with your behavior, that's just the easiest thing you will keep on doing and watching you know ton of series and you will just be a little bit mindless with your time spending, I'd say. And with stoic philosophy, you are more conscious with without how you spend your time and what you do. And so I think this definitely will help because it makes you think and it makes you self reflect about your values and how how you want to live and what's important to you and what not so much.
00:10:25
Speaker
and you want to really you want to express your your best self right in every moment and so it makes you a little bit more conscious of what you do and if you think about trying to express your best self you probably not going to spend three hours doing certain things that you're not really proud of you'd rather read a book or.
00:10:46
Speaker
talk to people or I definitely think stoic philosophy can help you, you know, spend your time more consciously and it will certainly alleviate certain problems that come from, you know, behavior patterns that might not be healthy and might not be so consciously chosen.
Core Themes of Stoicism: Control and Responsibility
00:11:05
Speaker
So there's definitely a value in this philosophy when it comes to changing behavior.
00:11:11
Speaker
If you were to characterize three main themes that you think is the most valuable in stoicism that we can apply to our everyday lives, what would they be? So what comes to mind is the stoic happiness triangle from the book, obviously, which is so my visualization of of you know are giving an overview of this philosophy. and The goal of the philosophy is basically to flourish. The the Stoics used the word eudaimonia, which basically means you're good. Daimonia is your highest self or your soul. So you want to live in harmony with your highest self. You want to flourish in life. That's the goal of this philosophy. And then the triangle comes with three corners, obviously. And the first one would be living with Arete, which is, for me, the absolutely most important one. it's
00:12:00
Speaker
Arete means virtue. So you want to live with virtue, but it's much more, you want to express your highest self in every moment. So that that's basic, right? Trying to express your best self moment to moment to moment. And the Zoics have the core principle that's really helpful getting there. And the core principle is that there are things that are within your control and things that are without your control or beyond your control.
00:12:27
Speaker
and you want to focus on what's within your control and try to make the best given the circumstances of the story. It doesn't matter so much what happens but what you do the given circumstances which brings us to the third and final corner.
00:12:43
Speaker
take responsibility for the Stoics, you are responsible for your own flourishing in life because living without it, expressing your best self in every moment, that's within your control and this makes you responsible for flourishing in life and ah thank this I think this concept of resp responsibility is actually really empowering because it gives the power back to the people and I think it's one of the aspects that That's ah or one of the reasons why people enjoy this philosophy because they feel, hey, I can be responsible for how I feel and how I am basically. So that's the three things I would go with is express your best self in every moment, focus on the things you can control and accept the rest as it happens. Acceptance, big part there. And finally, you want to take responsibility for yourself. yeah
00:13:37
Speaker
And all three of those things combined too. Let me see if I can say this correctly. Daimonia, eudaimonia. Eudaimonia. Eudaimonia, exactly. so So again, that's the goal, right? you You want to flourish in life. It's flourishing. You are supremely well. I'm matching, you know, like a flower.
00:13:57
Speaker
that flowers, so you can flower. I believe that we human beings can flower in our own ways. you know if If you are really well, David, if you are shining bright with joy and the happiness, you're full of love, and you walk down the streets, you know people that are going to see your flower, basically. You're flowering, and that's when you are really well. And of course, that's one side, and as the flower, nor will you always flower, but there's also you know, winter season of rest, right? And you can also be well in this or in the seasons when you don't flower. But generally, that's what I imagine, you know, when you're really well, you you shine so bright with with your joy and love and that it's just overflowing and it's sharing naturally with everybody around. So that's that's
00:14:50
Speaker
my ideal goal, you know, that at least in the flowering season, I'd like to to shine so bright that I'm a gift to the to world around me. I know we're just looking at each other through a webcam, but as as soon as you signed on, you had this great smile and and so it's causing me to smile. And Carla is usually happy all the time, but she's smiling extra flowery today. think So we thank you for that.
00:15:15
Speaker
yeah And that's your point exactly, I believe. Yeah, I think you, I was going to ask a question and I think you just spoke to it in a way, but I'm i'm curious if you have any other thoughts on this. So when you use the phrase best self, I would imagine that some people that they're listening to that are thinking, how do I know what my best self is? Is it just something that's unique to me? How do I figure that out? What's the best way to express the highest way of being me? Yeah. Any thoughts on that?
00:15:44
Speaker
that It can be challenging, I would say, to to figure this out because we we don't happen to spend a lot of time with ourselves and asking these questions like who do I want to be and what's truly important to me and what are my values.
00:16:00
Speaker
But with stoic philosophy, that's where are you're going to go to use self-reflection as a tool really to to get to know yourself for one thing and asking yourself these questions and so you will get to know or you will get there over time. you know You can ask yourself what you find admirable in others. So for so when I'm spending time with you, I will say, i like you I like your humor, for example, I like what your directness, I like the way you are, you know, in a way you're so considerate when you speak of challenging things. And so you, you can go there, like what to admire in, in, in certain other people. And maybe I would admire this in me as well, but it's within each of us, you know, it's, there's no, it's the the secret is I would say, if anything,
00:16:55
Speaker
It's spending time with yourself and trying to listen to yourself and really try to connect because the connection is there, but really try to connect to yourself and you will know. And obviously it takes time. If you are haven't been connected much with yourself, then it's going to be much harder. And that's why it's also important to go offline really and spend maybe time in solitude or with writing and but just trying to feel yourself. So feeling is really important because that's how your soul or your best self or your highest self is going to show itself. And yeah, I hope this makes sense, but it's really about getting to know yourself and and also asking these questions. And it might not be easy because you will need to be true with yourself, but you you want to be true with yourself and and say,
00:17:54
Speaker
and You know, I did all these things that I might not be proud of and it's okay. So you you use kindness on yourself, but then you can also honestly say, I would like to change a little bit. And it's not that we always, that we don't always need to change. You're obviously, you're good at as you are, but but maybe you want to because how you live is not so consistent with who you really are. And that's where lots of, I would say, problems come from that we aren't living true to ourselves. It's a fantastic answer.
00:18:28
Speaker
You're currently in Switzerland and you've done a lot of traveling in your life.
Cultural Acceptance of Stoicism
00:18:32
Speaker
Do you see specific differences in cultures where more certain cultures may be more likely to accept that kind this kind of stoicism mindset than others? And if so, can you can you just share what that what's your perception of that is like?
00:18:52
Speaker
I find there are people that are naturally living in ah in this way and there are probably certain places in the world where there's more people who are more natural stoics, if you want to call them like that, that are people who are accepting what is and are happy ah with life no matter if it's raining or the sun is shining and no matter if they have if they have something to eat or not even. So I would say, yes, there are cultural differences.
00:19:25
Speaker
And it probably has also to do with but a certain wealth because if you are just living to survive, you know if you need to survive because you don't have a lot of food, you don't have lots lots of money or money at all, like in so many countries in the world, you have different problems. theyre You won't find depressed people. there even though they don't have much because they don't get there to think like what should I do with my life because maybe they don't have all these choices and so which doesn't mean you know we should be impoverished and we will be natural stoics I just think
00:20:07
Speaker
This is the natural way for for it to come by that if you don't have a lot, or at least power that's what I've observed in Latin American countries, but also southeastern Southeast Asia and Asian countries that people don't have a lot, but they seem to be good. you know They drive to work, take four buses, takes two hours or three hours, they go to the city and they work all day and then they drive with these four buses back home and do this six times a day, as six times a week. And Sunday, they drink a couple of beers and you know enjoy their free time with friends and they really well and they don't complain and and yeah they they are well. you know and But life, it's there's probably reasons why this is so and so they don't get even more problems because they they need to survive. and And you can also observe lots of injustice you know and in this and the system we're living in that you know you and me, we're really privileged. ah We are
00:21:11
Speaker
Fortunately, we we have so many choices and we can you know the money we earn here has so much more worth than than the money they earn in in other countries. So they can never ever earn so much money where where they live. So I would say I've observed this, but to make the point,
00:21:29
Speaker
I'd like to say that still we need to to be at some place where it's not only about survival, like in many Western countries where we have the luxury of a fire movement to retire early or where we can work and have a free time because We earn enough money in less hours so we can have more free time. In these cultures, we want to to find ways to to be well, despite all the luxury, because that's the the the paradox here.
00:22:05
Speaker
that people in poorer countries sometimes seem to be better off when it comes to their well-being. That's not the solution, right? Because we we want to be freer without time. So we want to find ways and make ways to be really well despite having this luxury because it has, there's like Yeah, there's some connection there that we we have too many choices and we can think too much about, I want to be happy and what should I do? And how do I spend my days? we can So we can get depressed or have anxiety issues or or other problems here.
00:22:45
Speaker
but we want to to move beyond that. So we want to be free and we want to be really well and and happy and flourishing. And that's a long answer to say that yes, i've observed I've observed this that some people are more natural stoics and in some cultures it's more natural, but it's probably also survival skill actually to not be bothered about too many things because they have the real problems basically. And they won't be bothered him about waiting two hours somewhere or if it's raining or if they have dirty shoes or if the boss is screaming at them. so Because they they need their energy for other things, for survival.
00:23:29
Speaker
Yeah, i I think all of that is so spot on. And so David and I are American. I'm guessing most of our listeners are American and we do just have an unbelievable level of abundance here. And I don't, American grocery stores, right? You walk in and just the cereal aisle alone is an entire aisle and you have hundreds of choices of what kind of cereal to take home with you.
00:23:54
Speaker
I mean, the the level of just choices and luxury that we have available to us here, very, very high.
Stress Reduction through Perspective and Gratitude
00:24:03
Speaker
And as you're pointing out, Jonas, I think it can paradoxically lead to feeling overwhelmed and feeling unhappy and feeling like we have to keep up with this intense pace of just constant consumption and impressing others with our level of consumption. I'm curious if you can offer any words of wisdom to those of us who are embedded in that culture of how to lower that level of stress that we have being surrounded by some of that social pressure and how to maybe feel more grateful for what we have and instead of feeling pressure to keep up with the Joneses or pressure to live a certain way.
00:24:46
Speaker
I mean, you you can count your blessings. So rather than, you know, looking for more and more, you can ask yourself, what's the things I have and how much would I desire these things if if I didn't have them already? So that you basically you turn it around rather than, you know, desiring something else. You ask how much would I desire the things that I already have? And these can be material things that I'm grateful to have this black mark here.
00:25:17
Speaker
Or you know the thing that you have some favorite things material things maybe or favorite jumper or shoes or or cushion or whatever or laptop computer all these things that we use on a daily basis but you can take it even further and say that okay i'm grateful actually for my health.
00:25:35
Speaker
I have two healthy legs that I can walk, you know? So you can probably couldn't buy this and you would never ever give it away if if you can choose. So it makes you more grateful. And the Stoics, they would say, you know, don't take life for granted.
00:25:52
Speaker
Maybe you take it as granted, you know, as a gift really here, you have this gift of life and use it well and appreciate it, appreciate it every day. And and I would say, so count your blessings here would be one stoic practice you can apply if you think you you need to keep up with the chances and need to buy new things that you count your own blessings.
00:26:18
Speaker
And if you make it to the way that you are grateful to have, you have your, ah your hand, the healthy hand that you can use and grab things, it's amazing, right? You would never give this away. If you could choose not for any money in the world, then this can change everything. This just.
00:26:35
Speaker
a tiny change in perspective, and then you are you're happy to have a healthy hand, right? Or eyes, or you have a nose and a tongue that you can speak. And yeah, it's it's amazing. And so, yeah. And there are, I would say, many possible ways that you can look at situations in a different way to change perspective and find a way that's more valuable and more supportive of certain values so you don't go and buy things that you just buy to impress others and doesn't a it's not really worthwhile for you.
00:27:11
Speaker
jonas aye know that you meditations you hear about meditations in stoic philosophy and you just sort of i think Going through a list of things that you're grateful for is a sort of a meditation. it's It's probably more auditory, more base level. But how does, how can somebody listening to this or me, once I get done with this call and I say, okay, I'm inspired now, Jonas has inspired me. I want to meditate. What is a basic meditation that anybody can do to, to take those first few steps to getting control of of their emotions as well as shift that perspective that you were just mentioning?
Stoic Meditation and Self-reflection
00:27:47
Speaker
Well, you want to make time for yourself, right? So a classic meditation would be a seated meditation. its I find it's not something the Stoics did, just sitting still and observing their thoughts. The Stoics, they used self-reflection. They would write, they would sit down and write and you know, ask these questions. What but do I value? What am I grateful for? You know, who am I really? And why do I want to live and what's important in my life and these questions? And then you can you can ask yourself a lot of questions that would come from the Stoics. So you know, one idea that comes to mind is that the idea of acceptance, basically. So the Stoics say there's these things that are beyond your control and you want to focus on what's within your control.
00:28:39
Speaker
And they say you want to accept these external situations and that's obviously not always easy because sometimes terrible things happen and really sad things happen.
00:28:53
Speaker
And so there's acceptance versus resistance, maybe a rejection. And this story I have really close to my heart. It's not exactly from the Stoics, but it's so it's a story of the ah Chinese farmer. And I'm just going to tell you the story. Maybe you've heard it before. So once upon a time, there was a Chinese farmer and he lost a horse.
00:29:18
Speaker
it ran away. So all the neighbours came to the farm and said, oh, that's terrible. Isn't it? And the farmer said, maybe the next day the farmer's horse came back and brought seven wild horses with it. So all the neighbours came to the farm and said, that's excellent. Isn't it wonderful? And he said, maybe the next day the farmer's son tried to tame one of the wild horses and he fell off the horse and broke a leg. Again, all the neighbors came to the farm and said, oh, that's terrible, isn't it? And he said, maybe the next day, conscription officers of the Chinese army came looking to recruit young men for the army and they rejected the farmer's son.
00:29:59
Speaker
Because you had the broken leg now again all the neighbors came to the farm and said oh that's wonderful isn't it and he said maybe and so I really like this story because it also shifts your perspective for you know because you don't really know whether something is good or bad.
00:30:16
Speaker
because you don't know the future. Life is more complex than then then we know or we i see will ever understand. So I like this perspective that shifts that something's good, something's bad, this is terrible, this is great. We much more go into this attitude of of maybe you know it it's okay. I can accept it. Of course, I didn't choose it. It's a little bit annoying, but it's going to be fine. And maybe even it's gonna turn out to be something valuable so this story is and really close to my heart and it's not the the way the story is told it but it's a very stoic idea in my perspective that that life happens and it's good that it happens and it will give you you know the challenges that you need in order to grow because
00:31:08
Speaker
You know, like the trees outside that will will grow strong, they they need all the challenges and they will embrace all the seasons in order to grow strong and beautiful so they can bear fruit and and be a gift to the the ecosystem around them. And we too, we can let life happen as it happens. you know And sometimes it's more pleasurable than other times. and Sometimes it's really annoying and we don't really see how this should be fun, but I find that if we really want, we will always ah find a silver lining somewhere and we can always at least see something as a challenge for you to grow, even if it's really difficult. So yeah, there's this much to learn from the stories and I would say we each have it within us, you know, this the potential to to find
00:32:02
Speaker
opportunity in difficulty and in challenge. You just ask yourself, sit with yourself and and if you breathe calmly and maybe have a pen and paper ready, ask yourself some questions and I'm sure you will find some answers.
00:32:19
Speaker
So many nuggets of gold in there. That was just a powerful story. Yeah, I love that, Jonas. That's great.
Mindfulness and Stoic Quotes
00:32:25
Speaker
Jonas, you don't get very far Googling stuff about Sostoicism before you start seeing some really awesome quotes. And you've got a number of quotes listed in your book, of which you gifted me a number of years ago. I think you wrote it published it in 2019, I think. Yes.
00:32:41
Speaker
And I got one of these in the mail shortly after because you helped me with phyology, one of the less the stoicism lesson in phyology. So I'm very grateful for that. And it's funny how we're finally meeting face to face after all these years. And I have one of your quotes now that is not now going to be one of my favorite quotes is be well despite all the luxury. That's something I wrote down and put in quotes because that just caught me when you said it. There's so much behind it, especially in a modern modern society. But what are some of your favorite quotes?
00:33:11
Speaker
Well, most basic one that teaches philosophy really well is from Marcus Aurelius that goes, let me think, if it's not right, do not do it. If it's not true, do not say it. So yeah, that's just, it's very simple, but there's a lot in it. and Obviously, it requires a lot of mindfulness in the present moment to not do or say things that we don't really want to do or say. So that's one quote I like. And the very next level would be, and if it's true, sometimes you probably still shouldn't say it. who's like Yes. You can get a lot of trouble sometimes speaking the truth. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. You want to be considerate with speaking the truth and that that's the art there. Yeah. It's something i'm i I'm still learning. no
00:34:01
Speaker
but it What would be another quote that you enjoy? So one that I find important is that if you didn't learn these things in order to demonstrate them in practice, what did you learn learn them for? That's from the Stoic teacher Epictetus and it's always a good reminder because And I fell into this trap too when I was reading loads of books that you know so you you feel like I'm learning a lot, but if I failed to put it into practice, I didn't really learn it. you know it's I find that's true with almost everything. There's some things we can learn in theory and apply it maybe later on automatically, but
00:34:41
Speaker
With many things, we really need to apply it to truly learn it and understand it because oftentimes things in practice look so much different than in theory, right? Because it's a whole other story. and
00:34:57
Speaker
That's the challenge always. So that's one of the quotes I like a lot. And one, yeah, I'm not sure I'm going to pull it off right off out of the heart, but seek not for events to happen as you wish, but rather wish for them to happen as they do. And your life will go smoothly. Something among these lines that, yeah, go with life, you know, as it comes, you know, maybe it's good, it's bad, but I wish for the things that happen, it's it's good as they happen that you will work.
00:35:26
Speaker
with these things rather than always wishing life to be different. know I find that people will, even in really beautiful moments, they will always say, this would be perfect if such and such would also, if the sun would be shining or something else. So I really tried to to not fight or not search for anything that would make the situation better because we it will never be perfect if we keep on you know searching for things that will make a situation perfect or better. So I try to say this is perfect and I want to be here and breathe calmly and be present and that's perfect. There's no better moment than than this one and it's not going to be better if the sun were shining or if it would be raining or whatever.
00:36:11
Speaker
I was thinking as you were talking about the quote about, you know, why did you learn these things if not to put them into action? And it reminds me of a quote I heard a long time ago about the man who chooses not to read has no advantage over the man who does not know how. And it I think is maybe a helpful call to action to, you know, use the gifts that you have. Yeah, again, not get sucked into this sort of frenetically paced world of shiny new objects that are constantly dangling in our faces all day every day, certainly in our culture here. So yeah, I just, I love those thoughts so a lot. I think that's great. Thank you.
00:36:49
Speaker
Jonas, in your own journey, you have not done this alone.
A Personal Journey in Stoicism with Nils
00:36:52
Speaker
I have an identical twin brother, and I don't know what it feels like to not have an identical twin brother and have gone through my life with him, but you have Niles. Can you just talk for a few minutes on what that relationship is like, what you've been through together, and what that means to you? Sure. So Niles actually is his name, Niles.
00:37:11
Speaker
Nils is one of my brothers. So we are four brothers actually, a tremendous gift and to our mother, four brothers. And so Nils is one of my brothers and we're the two middle ones. And almost 10 years ago, we decided, yeah, we tried to build our own business and try to be self-employed and and yeah we We shared lots of interests, I would say. Both of us had been reading a lot of books and were always interested in learning you know about many things. First, it was nutrition and you know biohacking, you know eat, move, sleep, breathe, all these things we were really interested in. and we We shared this interest and we we talked a lot about these things. and When we decided to try to
00:38:02
Speaker
you know, build a business, we we move together. And so we were able to cook together and have our nutrition. So we tried to do ketogenic diet for a long time, for example, and lots of fasting and, and also, you know, yeah, just reading books. And interestingly, I find that we we haven't read the same books. There's only a few books we've both read, but usually I read you know I just chose different books than he did. He's more you know into science books and I'm more into other books. and But i would ah we would always teach it to other about the things that we learned in the book. So I don't draw, for example, once many years ago, he learned about barefoot shoes. That's why it's a good idea to to wear barefoot shoes. and So he read two or three books about barefoot shoes.
00:38:55
Speaker
And he was really fascinated and he bought a pair of barefoot shoes and I just asked him, Hey, so what's it with these barefoot shoes? And he told me, you know, it's really healthy for your feet and it's good for these and these reasons. And before, you know, you if you start wearing barefoot shoes, you must be careful for these and these reasons. And maybe you want to do this and that. And then I said, Oh, great. I'm going to get the pair of barefoot shoes and It was, you know, it was with many things. It was that we, so I learned something from, from a couple of books and I just taught him the the things that I put into practice or most important things. And he did the same with me. So we were always able to, to almost learn double about a couple of things. But again, as I said before, it's, if you I failed with many things, putting them into practice and forgot loads of stuff, but that's fine.
00:39:51
Speaker
so yeah so That's one of my brother's nails. He recently published his book, Mastering Flow, in your book and I'm really happy for him because um it was a really long, tough project.
00:40:03
Speaker
so and yeah it's you know you or We have been supporting each other and reading each other's stuff and you know been trying to be here for each other. but Also, we we live together, we work together and we often spend our free time together. ah it was There were also certain challenges, I would say. but yeah when know Because we haven't been working very closely lately, because we haven't been living together and we've each had our own projects.
00:40:32
Speaker
When I look back at the time, we we were so close living together and working together and spending so much time with each other. I'm really happy actually because it was a beautiful time and you know I'm tremendously grateful to have him as a brother and as a friend and also my other brothers.
00:40:52
Speaker
you know It was always the Aunt Chase and Nielsen Jonas. I thought maybe it could have been challenging for the other brothers, but I think it wasn't. a We were always good, the four of us, and we loved spending time with with each other. We recently went there playing to an escape room and playing puddle. I don't know if you you know this, so playing puddle is... Oh my gosh, you're obsessed with escape rooms. Really? Yeah.
00:41:21
Speaker
So yeah, that was lots of fun and we're fortunate to have really good relationships. And I think because it's important to each one of us that so we take care of each other and are considered of each other's needs and also desires and everything. so Yeah, it it's wonderful. It's been a wonderful experience working with him and hopefully also in the future. And I don't have an identical twin brother and Niels and I certainly are different, you know, but I also think it's beautiful to be different and appreciate each other's uniqueness and but it would be boring if we were all the same, right? so
00:42:01
Speaker
Yeah, beautiful. I'm really grateful to have a wonderful family. Jonas, thank you so much for giving us that general overview of Stoicism as a philosophy. I feel like it's been a a part of my life for a number of years, but yet I still rarely find anybody that's even heard of it. But it's so useful as just a baseline way to frame things in your mind that helps you get through tough times. Thank you for always being supportive. Thank you very much for being here on this episode. And thanks for coming back next time where we are discussing stoic money lessons. Perfect. I'm looking forward to coming back.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that conversation as well. So everybody make sure to check out the next episode with Jonas here. But I think you've just dropped pearls of wisdom all over the place today, Jonas. So thank you so very much. I've loved this conversation and got so much out of it. Thank you. Thank you. See you next episode.