Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 451: When Beach Read Meets a System with Lindsay Jill Roth
415 Plays5 days ago
Lindsay Jill Roth was told by a tutor at a young age that she'd become a writer one day. At the time she laughed, but it came to be. Lindsay is the author of the novel What Pretty Girls Are Made Of and her latest is Romances & Practicalities: A Love Story (Maybe Yours) in 250 Questions.
Lindsay talks about the writing of the book, structuring it, and how working in television and radio informed the storytelling mechanics of the book.
Sponsor: The Power of Narrative Conference. Use CNF15 at checkout for a 15% discount.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
Recommended
Transcript
Podcast Launch and Book Pre-order
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, ACNFers, Front Runner, the life of Steve Prefontaine, is available for pre-order wherever you care to pre-order your books. I know every author under the sun. Thanks for pre-orders. It's the name of the game. And we only have so many dollars at our disposal, so I'll just say, consider it. Promotional support for the podcast is also brought to you by Power of Narrative Conference, celebrating its 26th year On the last weekend of March, March 28th and 29th, three to 400 journalists from around the world are coming to Boston. Keynote speakers include Susan Orlean, Connie Schultz, Dan Zach, and Connie Chung. Wow.
00:00:44
Speaker
Listeners to this podcast can get 15% off your enrollment fee by using the code CNF15. To learn more, visit combeyond.bu.edu and use that CNF15 code. I mean, that 15%, that's some good burrito money. Again, it's about killing your darlings when it's right for the future of your book.
00:01:13
Speaker
Oh, you see, after just the creative non-fiction podcast, a show where I talk to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell, I'm the self-proclaimed voice of a generation. It might be annoying. Maybe I should change the article to a voice of a beleaguered, sad, bitter generation.
Lindsay Jill Roth on 'Romances and Practicalities'
00:01:29
Speaker
Oh boy, Lindsay Jill Roth is on the show today. And how fitting. I must be a good producer to run this on the made up holiday Valentine's day to celebrate her latest book.
00:01:41
Speaker
romances and practicalities a love story may be yours and 250 questions it's published by William Morrow and in print of Harper Collins sure it's prescriptive non-fiction but it's not as sterile as a questionnaire would be and there's no score keeping like if you score 101 points you found your soul mate Quite honestly, I think the book is better for self-discovery versus figuring out what someone else thinks. Sure, there's the compatibility thing going on, but if you can answer these questions and plumb the depths of your dreams and desires, you'll have a great sense of self to bring to a partnership.
00:02:23
Speaker
One dude's opinion patreon shout out to Laurie Mortimer. Thank you very much for becoming a CNF for light The tastes great less filling patreon tier if you want time with me one-on-one consider the full-bodied CNFers and the Imperial CNF for tears Okay, listen, I've put out the call on patreon for people to claim their phone call with me I can't be chasing people down for this If you don't want it and you're cool supporting the show monetarily, throw in a few bucks every month into the tip jar, awesome. ah But what I don't want is for someone to cancel their membership and say they didn't get what I promised them. This happened and it still bugs me. I even reached out personally saying, hey, let's get you on a call that you earned and nothing, nothing.
00:03:09
Speaker
The post is pinned to the Patreon page. It's from June 4th, 2024. If you're owed a call, book a slot, patreon dot.com slash CNF pot. Also there are about a dozen of you with expired credit cards and canceled payments dating back in some cases several months to more than a year ago. Perhaps you think you're still supporting the show and you're not.
00:03:36
Speaker
show notes to this episode and more at brendanamare.com. hey There you can read blog posts and sign up for the monthly rage against the Algorithm newsletter. You'll want to be on board for the next one as I break down my my book advance for the Prefontaine book and what it looks like in reality versus what it sounds like. I provide a lot of context to it as well and why it's so important not to compare ourselves to others until you know the full scope of that context.
00:04:04
Speaker
Lindsay Jill Roth is an award-winning television and live events producer working for such networks as NBC, BET, ESPN. ah She's worked the Masters, the Grammys, and more. She's the author of the novel, What Pretty Girls Are Made Of.
00:04:23
Speaker
And her first tango of non-fiction is romances and practicalities. This is a fun one for Lindsay, as she got to talk more about the writing versus many of the topics that more mainstream shows she's been on have been tugging on. I like that I can give that to guests, and by extension, you the listener. So let's get after it. Parting shot on the post-book funk, but right now, here's Lindsay Jill Roth-Riff.
Meeting Joan Rivers: A Mentorship Story
00:05:00
Speaker
would be I would love for you to just elaborate on how you came to meet Joan Rivers, you know, 1998 or so. Aha. So I well, this is a great story and really does play into how and when I'm able to write. So without even knowing it, you led me right there. So when I was 16, it was the summer I was 16 and I decided I was no longer a child and it was time to get a proper job as an adult. And it was before internships were really a thing. And I wrote a letter to someone that I knew's father, who was the host of a radio show. He was part of this Radio Dynasty family and he was in New York City working and I was on Long Island.
00:05:46
Speaker
And I said, hey, can I intern for you this summer? And um I think he didn't really know what to do with it or me, but he admired it. And he gave my letter to his producer, who I'm still friends with to this day. And he said, can you give this girl, she's friends with my kids, can you give this girl a summer job? so She did. And I was interning for a big morning show in New York City. And I would commute to the city every morning with my dad. And I really had the best time. That was my first foot into really working in the entertainment business, the entertainment industry. And I fell in love with radio and talk storytelling. That was, again, my first experience there. and
00:06:30
Speaker
But I was on the morning show and Joan Rivers happened to have a show in the evening, which was um awesome. And she was always someone that I looked up to. you know She wasn't the legend she was over the past 20 years, but this was a while ago. And one morning she was subbing in for another one of the hosts who had a morning show after the morning show I worked on. And I just said to myself, okay, I am going to go in there.
00:06:59
Speaker
and meet this woman, now's your chance. So thankfully I had a very cute outfit on that day. because you know She's super fashion conscious and I felt good about myself. And I made up an excuse to walk into the radio studio while she was on a break. I had went and asked for a binder or something and I walked in and I said, excuse me, I just need to grab this from your studio. And she said in her Joan Rivers voice, like, who are you and what are you doing in my studio? and That literally started the conversation between us, and we had a great conversation. and that evening so This is around the time of Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. and That evening, she her producers came to me and said, you know, Joan really liked you. She would love to have you on her show tonight being a young intern in the age of ah intern scandal. I didn't really know what that meant at the time, but I was like, sure. Okay. I get to be on the radio with Joan Rivers.
00:07:54
Speaker
and um She put me on the radio and we had this amazing discussion. And from that moment, she really became a mentor for me. Oh, that's great. Yeah. and she ah and And so how does that inadvertently start pushing you towards ah you know ah being ah being a writer, getting interested in writing?
Writing Anywhere: Lessons from Radio
00:08:14
Speaker
So I'm so glad you asked. so You had said that people always want to find out how you write, when you write your process. And I always credit radio to my being able to sit down and write anywhere. A lot of people need a quiet room. They might have a ritual like lighting a candle, playing some classical music, whatever it is. but
00:08:38
Speaker
When you work in radio and you work at a radio station, there's always radio on in the background. You almost don't hear it anymore. So you're doing your work at your desk, you're on phone calls, and there's radio on in the background. And having that experience taught me that I can focus anywhere. So I mean, if I'm sitting on a train ride or I'm on a bus or in ah in a public place and I get an idea, I can literally sit down anywhere, tune out everything around me. and just make myself focus and write. And I think as a writer who has another career and who is a parent, I have two little kids, being able to write when you get an idea or when the spark comes to you, no matter where you are, is really important.
00:09:22
Speaker
Right. And then even sometimes it's it's hard to then ah synthesize and metabolize and generate ah momentum. So sometimes, you know, you the lightning might strike, but you might be i don't know driving your kids somewhere and you're like, that I want shit. Thank goodness for voice notes. Right. Yeah, so that does' I'm someone who always carries just a pencil and notebook with me at at all times um just because i like I will forget those little things that come. and i so So for you, voice memo, how how are you cataloging things if inspiration strikes but you don't have the luxury to sit down for even 10 minutes? That's exactly what I do. I get out my phone. i
00:10:03
Speaker
send a voice note to myself, or I just go on voice recorder and I record everything that I'm thinking. And as soon as that's done, if I don't have the time, then I won't do it. But as soon as I can, I then send what I've written to transcription service so that I have it in writing. Very nice. And at that point, do you have a ah system of sorts that sort of files your ideas away for you so you know you just have easy access to it?
00:10:31
Speaker
I do have a Google doc now that you can do tabs in actual documents. I do have a doc with lots of tabs that are open. And then when I'm writing books and I'm moving text around, I always have a separate document with all the big texts that I've decided that I've needed to write, but didn't have a place for at that time. And that's the biggest gift. Because when you're trying to put together a manuscript and you suddenly, you hit this point where you're like, God, I really wish I had a story about that. Oh, wait.
00:11:00
Speaker
I actually do and it's written and you can go over to another document and put it in and suddenly you have 500 to a thousand more words. It's like the biggest gift you can give yourself. You must know how that feels.
00:11:12
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and a mentor of mine, ah the Pulitzer Prize winner Madeline Blaise, when she was ah writing her latest biography on um this ah Queen of the Court on Alice Marble, sort of a forgotten tennis legend of ah the 20s and 30s, she would like sometimes write chapters asynchronously. So she had a bunch of material that was like farther down the timeline, and she was more confident to write that.
00:11:38
Speaker
You know, she was kind of noodling on chapter two, but she kind of had an idea it was going to be chapter eight, you know, in that ballpark. You know, she would write that and and she's just like, and then you're done with that and you go kind of back to the start. And by the time you get back up to that chapter eight, you know, you've hit that you've got five, eight thousand words there and it's like this is money in the bank and you're there. It just feels feels so good.
00:12:00
Speaker
I do that too. I really think when the inspiration strikes, do not force yourself to write a book or an article or whatever you're tackling in a linear fashion, because then you're like pounding your head against your desk to just go forward in a straight line. and Write what you're ready to write. Write what you know of a story, if you remember a story from your childhood that you want to put in. Don't make a note to write about that at a later time. If it hits you, write that story because it is you're exactly what you're saying. Oh, it's such a gift.
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, to to that point also, I'm someone who, once I have the, it doesn't matter when in the continuum of the generative process it is, like the sooner I can come to an ending, the better I feel because that becomes kind of a lighthouse in the distance. And I'm like, oh, and now I know what I'm paddling towards or or or something. you know For you, how important are endings? And you know if you feel like you're coming upon it, is that something that you ah you really,
00:13:04
Speaker
you You make a note of that. So that that way you know what you're ah informing and what you're heading towards.
Non-linear Storytelling Approach
00:13:10
Speaker
You know, it's funny with both of my books. So this is my, Romans is in practicality is my second book and it's prescriptive nonfiction. My first novel was a fiction novels, but for both of them, I knew approximately how I wanted to end, but I didn't totally know how I would do the wrap up. And I never focus on first and last lines. I think that and log lines are the hardest thing ever to write, but when it's time, I always feel like, yes, I i hit it. I hit on it. I always have a roadmap as to where I'm getting to, but I don't know.
00:13:51
Speaker
Until I'm sitting there and writing it, sometimes I don't know what that's going to look like, but I really let myself play on the keys and write and then come back to it and see if it's crap and throw it away or if it's workable.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah I love that idea of you know playing on the keys and there are things that you don't you don't know where the potholes on the road are until you just start laying down roads start and in a sense you have to write before you're ready and then sometimes.
00:14:25
Speaker
because you're never ultimately ready. And then at times you're like, oh, you see where there are pitfalls ah along the way that ah that only expose themselves once you kind of had the courage to sit down and start doing it in ah in not the perfect setting. So is that something that you um that that you adopt too? Sometimes you just gotta be okay with those shitty first drafts and just start laying down road because you know you can fix it later.
00:14:48
Speaker
ah hundred percent I mean, you're never going to get to 80, 100, 120, 150,000 words. If each word is precious, you're just not going to make it. You're going to stop yourself. You're going to get frustrated. you You're just going to leave that project on the table. I mean, so my first book, I've gone back and I've read it a few times and since it it came out and there are times when I've read it and I'm like, wow.
00:15:14
Speaker
That was great, that bit. I love that bit. I forgot that I had had that bit in there. That's some great writing. And then I've also looked at it and thought, oh, god, what was I thinking there? i really If I could, I would go back and edit that bit. So I think this writing is always a work in progress thing. I think it's really true. I think there comes a point where you're ready to publish, and it's the right draft at the right time. Look, my book's been out for a week. you know You and I are talking. It's been a week.
00:15:41
Speaker
that it's been out. So I've not had a chance to reflect on it years down the line, but I'm so curious as to know where I'll think those thoughts in the future. But as of now, it seems really complete to me. Where do you you know labor over the most when you're generating pages?
00:16:01
Speaker
Definitely the beginning I I've been lucky in that for for this past book I knew where I wanted the story to start So I think when you have a clear idea of where the story begins Then you can toil over it. I remember with my last book I I had a prologue and I really thought that was the way in. And I had this prologue. I thought I really liked how it was written. And I ended up killing my darlings, ended up throwing away the prologue. I'm sure I could find it on my computer somewhere because there was a better way into the story. So two very different experiences in the start of my books, but it ended up feeling right for both of them. And we really hated it. killing that ah that prologue. And listen, on one of my books, I changed the title once I got a publishing deal. And on the other, I did not change the publishing the title. Excuse me. So again, it's about killing your darlings when it's right for the future of your book.
00:17:05
Speaker
When did the switch go on in your head where you were just like you know a fan of reading, a fan of books to the moment you were like, oh, i want to I want to actually kind of contribute to you know to to books and to to writing in that capacity?
Transition from TV Producing to Writing
00:17:21
Speaker
So after my radio career, I moved on as a producer to the TV world. So I've been a TV producer for quite a while. And look, I say that I'm a storyteller. I mean, if I tell you my resume, it's right. It's like TV producer and author. But what I really am is a storyteller. And I've learned over the years that there are different mediums for telling stories in some suit.
00:17:48
Speaker
some better than others. And I really realized a bunch of years ago for my first book that there was a story I wanted to tell and could I probably have put it on TV first? Yes. But something in me was saying, Lindsay, you need to write this story. You need to own this story. And that began my journey. And to be honest with you, I didn't put any pressure on myself for the publishing house, whether I was going to publish it, self publish it or really go forward with a big publisher. You know, Simon & Schuster ended up publishing that, so it worked out really nicely, but that began my journey as an author and not just a writer. And then, you know, my relationship, my romantic relationship with my now husband is the backbone of this current book, Romances and Practicalities. I went to HarperCollins for this one and shout out, I had an incredible,
00:18:46
Speaker
Editing team. I know that you're a Harper Collins author as well yeah You know, and i've I've found the best home there but um in the same way it's funny I was a bunch of years ago i was in l LA and someone asked what I was working on and I said what this idea was it's a story all about love it's my transatlantic love story meets a system that I created to help people have a healthy, romantic, long-term relationships. And I interviewed a ton of people and subject matter experts. So that's where it becomes both beach read meets system. And I was telling someone about it. And this this guy was an agent at one of the big agencies.
00:19:28
Speaker
in the world, and he said, oh my god, you have to start with TV for that. You must. It's so ripe for that. And I yes-ed him. And I said, yes, you're right. And I thought about it. And I started writing up the TV pitch. And then I took a step back and said, no, I really, really want to author this story as a book. So I just went with my gut. And now that I have this as a beautiful book, who knows what can happen since? But it all, for me, goes back to storytelling. I'll tell you one other one other story.
00:20:01
Speaker
um and When I was growing up, I was in high school in law on Long Island, New York, and I had a tutor for a bunch of subjects. as i was I learned quite differently, and I was finding that I needed just different skills for taking notes, and he really helped me out based on how I learned, which is certainly more visual ah than others.
00:20:24
Speaker
And um I don't know, I said to him one day when I was leaving his office, my mom was there to pick me up. I couldn't drive at the time. And so she heard this conversation and I said to him, what do you think I'm gonna be when I grow up? And he just looked at me, smiled and said, you're gonna be a writer. And I laughed and I walked out the door and my mom and I just kind of giggled the whole way home. And I put that aside and I thought, ah, that's funny.
00:20:51
Speaker
And to this day, he and I still talk about that conversation that we had because it came true. That's wonderful. ah When that one particular agent was saying, like oh, you got to go to TV with this, and you're like, you followed your gut, like how did you learn to trust your instincts? That's such a good question. I think because my career my first career is a producer,
00:21:21
Speaker
I think there is less pressure on my author career, if that makes sense, so that I could really write these stories for myself first and foremost. I'm so proud of them. I'm so proud that they're mainstream. And um I'm so excited for the world to read this new book. but You know, my my rent was not predicated on this particular project, so I could really do it the way I saw fit. And look, I've worked in the entertainment industry for a really long time, and I've learned to trust my gut there in terms of what I produce, what projects I choose,
00:22:03
Speaker
I'm confident in business. Listen, I'm a lot confident. I was a lot more confident in my career than I was in my love life, ah which was the impetus for writing this book. But um I really have gone with my gut. Again, go back to the Joan Rivers story, right? My gut said, get in there, put your fears aside and find a way to meet this woman who you admire. Just go for it. So that's sort of how I lead my life.
00:22:28
Speaker
And how does being a producer, be it in radio or television, inform your taste and your practice as a writer?
Producer Insights into Writing
00:22:37
Speaker
I feel like I've studied story structure in all different forms. So a bit more of long form storytelling versus short term storytelling. I did a bunch of press in the past week. ah I was on a ah some morning shows and that's a whole different beast, right? You're, you have to talk about what your book is and what your product is in very short sentences. And then there's podcasts like this one where we can just riff and we can have a great dialogue though. I'm dying to ask you questions too, of course, but you are featuring me.
00:23:08
Speaker
um So I've understood storytelling structure. I've had to plan for different acts and different beats and and and sell different projects to the TV world, right? So I've had to learn how to handle myself in that realm. I also think, you know, as an author, and i I know you can speak to this.
00:23:31
Speaker
Writing your book is only a small portion of what goes into putting a book out there, right? So like, I had two years to write my book, so I haven't really written for a while because then there's the editing process and then there's the reediting process and the reediting process. But then there are things like.
00:23:51
Speaker
cover design and marketing and publicity and strategy. And you know nobody is their best advocate like the author of the book that's coming out. So I understand how to hustle in the entertainment world. And I know that that's helped me when I've had to put together social strategy and things like getting my book out there, just understanding how that world works because that's a beast as well. and Sadly, we can't just write and hope the book will do well on its own. As the author, you really have to stand behind it and get it out there yourself too.
00:24:29
Speaker
And ah you a moment ago, you just alluded to the this idea of you know having having written the thing and then it goes through the rewrites and you're rereading and rereading and rereading your stuff over and over again. And um I just put my book that's coming out in a few months to bed. And I've read the thing cover to cover probably a dozen times in the last eight months in those rewrites. Are you skipping words as you read? Because I can't read those words ah again. i can And it makes me nauseous to look at like anytime, anytime it came across my desk again, Lindsay, I was just like, I can't do it. I would put it off for like three or four days. Sometimes like I can't open the file. a guy I cannot look at my own words again. Yes, correct. And then you skip words because you've seen them so many times. So thank God for those copy editors who are catching all the things that
00:25:18
Speaker
that you and I don't, but I so know how it feels. Did you find that each re-edit deadline got shorter and shorter and shorter? It was, yeah, it was like in the neighborhood of like six days or so. Like it was getting to like five or six days where I had to, you know, read the thing cover to cover. And I, i this the final round, like I was even talking to my editor, I was like, I can't, I can't look at this again. Like I hate, like i ah guy I love the book, but I'm like, I hate it. I cannot look at this again. yeah he You're like, I love this work. I cannot look at it again. Save me from my own work.
00:25:53
Speaker
but But I was glad I did, because even still at this point, like I caught a fairly significant math error, just in terms of like the time difference of something, and then a couple other little things that still needed to be changed. I'm like, oh my god, I'm still catching little errors here and there. I'm like, um I don't know, what ah there's got to be something still wrong in there. But at some point, you just got to let go of it. And I'm happy to not see it for four months. like Just go away from me, man.
00:26:20
Speaker
I totally understand what you're saying viscerally. Cause I just went through that, but yeah, I also find it's really interesting when you get your copy edited draft back and your copy editor is asking you questions about the meaning of something and you're thinking, Oh my God, I meant it differently, but it's interesting to see how you read that. Um, and to really get that fresh outside perspective on.
00:26:44
Speaker
Maybe it should be this word versus this word or this word doesn't mean that, but this is a better word for that. Or did you mean this? Because I think you said this. So it's such a fascinating process getting a book to market.
00:26:57
Speaker
Yeah, and I loved how you said a while ago that it wasn't just about – and I think a lot of people have this vision of it is just the – let's just say the research of the reporting and the writing of the thing. But then there is this whole other machine that starts to come to life and once you kind of put it to bed. You're like, all right, you've got to try to build buzz, build momentum.
00:27:17
Speaker
You're doing dozens and dozens of these conversations, ah different in tonality, but you're still having to get up in the morning or in the afternoon, turn on your mic and and be you know the you' the champion ah of the work. So just in terms of the how you started thinking about the machine in the so and the messaging around,
00:27:37
Speaker
your book, be it your novel or your latest book. like ah how How do you start thinking about that and making it so you can have as good a time with it as possible? I mean, I'm having a blast with it, to be honest. And it's finally like, and I don't know if you feel this way, but you have however much time you have, three, six months, nine months a year, two years, right, to write your book, but it really does live under a rock, right? And nobody sees it except those intimate to you and the work product. So then suddenly it's released in the world and you can finally talk about it in this
00:28:13
Speaker
comprehensive way. And it's just, I just feel unleashed being able to really talk about it, which has been so exciting and great. Now, so this book for me is a nonfiction book. So I sold this book based off of a 50 page proposal, right, that I created to sell this book. And that's actually when my marketing hat went on, because as part of this proposal,
00:28:41
Speaker
I had to think about marketing strategies and contacts of mine and who I would reach out to. Would I do podcasts? Would I do events? What's the ideal framework around getting this out there? so And that was cool because it got my mind thinking from the beginning. However, I had to put that on hold because then you actually have to write the book. So that was interesting. And then I didn't realize how integral certain things would be when it came time. So like my book's title is romances and practicalities, but then there's a tagline, a love story, maybe yours in 250 questions. I didn't even think about at the beginning, oh gosh, we're gonna probably want or have a tagline here. Let's come together and create that. So things like that were, I definitely felt pressure there to come up with something as as much as I loved the title and my team.
00:29:34
Speaker
over at HarperCollins really did help with that. We threw a lot of things back and forth, and then suddenly we came on that one. and it just came together and I was like, yes, that's it. It's something that I always think about again, I think being in the media world, figuring out how I'm gonna position the book was always on my mind. And actually you're reminding me, when I create something for TV or film or content or video, my first question always without fail is who's my audience?
00:30:08
Speaker
And that is something that has stuck with me through book writing as well. Who's my audience? Let's be really realistic about who I'm targeting, who those readers are, who's going to spend money on this. And that also really guides me through both the writing and marketing process.
00:30:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's especially astute. I think Seth Godin talks about, you know if you try to you know appeal to everybody, you're really appealing to nobody. And and it's and it's better to be a meaningful specific to a group or a subgroup than, and he quotes Zig Ziglar, um like than a wandering generality. So I think you know having that in mind is very, very smart at
Target Audience Identification
00:30:47
Speaker
the outset. And it'll probably lead to less frustration too. For sure. and Again, I interviewed ah about 100 people for this book to be case studies in terms of people who are single, people are dating, people going through relationships, people have been married a long time. Really well-known figures in different fields to be my subject matter experts. But part of my research was to figure out who my audience is not.
00:31:15
Speaker
So there were people that I interviewed. I thought maybe they might be a little young for this or maybe this category might not be right for this. And that was just as valuable. It's like taking a job in an industry that you're curious about and you want to know if you can either thrive in it or need to not go into it because knowing who it's not right for is just as valuable as knowing who it's right for.
00:31:37
Speaker
Yeah, and you structure the book by not going through like every single question in every single category. You know, you you take about 220 something pages to yeah take out kind of like the it kind of big swaths, but not everything kind of braided together with some personal story. So ah when you were thinking about the structure and the organization of the book, what was the thinking behind that?
00:32:01
Speaker
So that was a massive puzzle that I definitely made harder for myself as I kept on interviewing more people. I was having such a blast getting my relationship system out there.
00:32:13
Speaker
And I found that I loved talking to singles and couples about their romantic lives and their experiences and then experts on top of that. And it was so funny because to your point of writing when you're ready to write a story, I wrote my personal story in different bits and I wove it through the book. And when I wasn't sure what else to write of other stories, I would always come back to mine. So I'd have that to come back to.
00:32:40
Speaker
Then I'd interview someone great and I would think oh my gosh they fit into the weddings chapter that they're perfect for that and so I would in my head and on a spreadsheet put them it a little tick for sort of the weddings chapter and then I would interview. someone else and they would be perfect for the wedding's chapter but then I really liked the person I interviewed before that so I would move them to the routines and rituals chapter and then I'd have to put this person in the money chapter so it really was an ever-evolving
00:33:13
Speaker
puzzle that I definitely definitely had to spreadsheet and put move blocks of text around so I couldn't do everything at once and I couldn't write all these chapters too early because I had to get my data in first and then again I put it together slowly and I would move bits of pieces around I would make outlines for who I thought could go where and then I went from there and In the author's notes, right at the start, you know you write, the the more people I spoke with, however, the more I came to believe that our wants, needs, hopes, dreams, insecurities, patterns, and practices, and attempts and struggle to connect in the context of safe, nonviolent, romantic pairings are universal. And I just scribbled in the margin. I was just like, you know, so, and you know, as as things change, you know, everything's changing around us, you know, what did you find through your research, things that remain the same?
Universal Desires and Healthy Communication
00:34:05
Speaker
People want love and people love partnership, healthy partnership. And at the end of the day on our tombstone, it doesn't list our job title or maybe for some people it does, but I haven't really seen that, right? People say who Families are, people say who their spouse was, people say who their kids are. This is not a book that tells you to get married. This is just a book about learning how to effectively communicate so that you can feel the beauty of loving, being loved,
00:34:43
Speaker
giving love, receiving love, whether that's romantic love or family love, whatever love means to you, that is what I mean is universal.
00:34:57
Speaker
And the book ah explores a lot of a lot of couples as well, but I i think, and you speak to some ah some single people or non-couple people, and I feel like this this book in a lot of ways could lead to a lot of clarity if you're just possibly seeking a partnership, and that you it might be a good cue for self-discovery. So in what ways can someone who is maybe not in a relationship or hasn't been one in a while, use a lot of these questions just for better clarity of the self. So that's why I wrote this book because I needed better clarity. I didn't write this book from a position of strength. I wrote a per this why I came up with the system from a place of being single and knowing that I needed
00:35:43
Speaker
to answer questions for myself about my future wants and needs and desires, the reasonable ones, right? Like we're not talking about, so I'm heterosexual, right? So I was looking for a man and I, we're not talking about, I will only aspire to be with someone who is six feet to six foot four, right? I'm five two. That's a ridiculous deal breaker.
00:36:08
Speaker
to have, right that says nothing about a person. So for those of you who are single, who are still looking, this is a book to understand yourself and to have clarity on what you're looking for. i mean For example, I found someone who's a different religion from me. And I can safely say that I learned so much but more about my religion and my feelings about spirituality and how I practice being with someone who's a different religion because I started questioning myself. And I started trying to understand why I believe in certain rituals. And I find that you're gonna be a better partner if you understand things about yourself. So look, I talked to Dr. Nicola Paris significantly about our childhoods and how they impact us, right? If you're single and you take a moment to understand
00:37:00
Speaker
the figures in your life who had an impact on how you argue or how you repair, it's going to make you a more present partner because then you can have more productive discussions with someone you're in a couple with. so And listen, a lot of times when people are starting to date, they read this book and they think, gosh, I never thought to talk about that. So if you're single,
00:37:24
Speaker
Have a look at these questions and really answer them for yourself to see where you stand. It doesn't mean you can't change your opinion, but it just means that you can have a perspective. Yeah, I like this particular sense where you write, but our best and bravest work is to look at the pair of glasses that we wear, the lens through which we experience relationships. And and then being able to kind of bounce that off other people, I think you can I mean in in an optimized sense you kind of can save time be like is this person really worth my time are we better as friends are we better shake hands and parting ways at this point could you really do need to get on the same page because it could say it'll save you a lot of pain down the road if you're not seeing eye to eye and very core issues.
00:38:07
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot easier to discuss something at the beginning and revisit it in the future if you're aligned. It's a lot harder if you've been with someone for a matter of months or years to start talking about something that you've never broached before. That's pretty scary. So the goal here is to address things early because if you get to the practical, then you can have a really sexy romance. And by the way, answering these questions with a partner once you've looked through them yourself, super sexy. I mean, the data here is crazy about when you look someone in the eye and you're intimate with them and you share intimate conversations. It doesn't have to be questions like, you know, where do you want to be buried when you die? It can be something like, do you prefer laundry or dishes, right? That can have a significant impact on your intimacy level.
00:39:02
Speaker
I especially like the when you were talking to Dr. Lapara and she was talking about like just introversion and solitude and of her partner, Lolly, who has to recede into herself or is okay being alone to kind of recharge. and like I think those are those are especially great conversations to have in terms of just an energy level, energy compatibility and having that that conversation that way you know like if someone has to recede and take time away it's not because they don't want to be with someone it's because like my battery charges at a different ah frequency than other people's or something.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, if you don't have the conversation, you don't know and then you in turn can feel hurt. So like if you're dating someone and on Sunday mornings, they want to go get bagels and an iced coffee and maybe, you know, get a bunch and bring them back so you can have breakfast together.
00:39:58
Speaker
And you offer to go with them to walk to the bagel store, drive to the bagel store, and they say, no, thanks. I'll go do it. If you don't have a conversation, you as the person offering may feel hurt and left out.
00:40:13
Speaker
And the person going to get the bagels may feel stifled because they just need that alone time for clarity. And if you just had a conversation, they could say to you, God, I love you so much, but I really do just need this time to listen to music on the way and have that moment of alone time.
00:40:32
Speaker
And then we can eat these bagels together. It says nothing about how I feel about you. It's just something I need for myself. Then you can be on the same page and there's no resentment about the situation. And that can be something that you do that recharges both of you. You both get a little alone time, but not if one of you is wondering why you're not allowed on this journey.
00:40:52
Speaker
A moment ago, you brought up the word scary. And ah when you were crafting these questions, asking them of yourself and to other people, like what are the the scariest questions that you come across? And maybe even give you, but or at one point or another, gave you like ah some of that that
Discussing Challenging Topics Early
00:41:09
Speaker
fear response. like got I don't know if I want to answer this, and I don't know if I want to hear the answer across the table.
00:41:14
Speaker
Totally. So that's why there are 250 questions in the book, because the questions that are scary to me are might not be the ones that are scary to you, right? And this is a system, but you can use this system as it works for you. And there are so many on-ramps.
00:41:32
Speaker
In this book for how to use it as well as i' I'm told this is my goal But I am told that people feel really comforted reading this book like they're on this journey But they feel safe because they're reading about other people's journeys who tackled the same issues so You know, for us, for my now husband and me, we'll go back to the religion questions. We were different religions. And I was really scared to talk about some of this stuff. Now, I wrote this book, but I didn't do everything right.
00:42:05
Speaker
on my journey and I write about that I write about not I wasn't perfect we weren't always perfect but there were so many learning experiences going through it so for us listen I would be I was so nervous to talk about these things because I didn't know if that would break us up but if you start talking early and often these don't have to be You know, when you were a kid and your parents or parental figure would say to you, you know, we have to talk. These don't have to be, we have to talk conversations. You can be taking a walk and go through some of these questions. You can spring some of these questions on a partner and they might not even know you're throwing them out there.
00:42:43
Speaker
That way when you get to the things that are particularly hard to talk about, you have a base layer of communication and you already feel safe. So when you say, Hey, can we just talk about a few of these things? You know, I'm a little nervous about it, but I i know that we can have a productive conversation here. You feel safe in saying that. So that's the goal.
00:43:04
Speaker
And this kind of piggybacks, I think, on hobbies and routines. And it's like ah um so a lot of people I talk to, like say aspiring writers, they they might not know how to thread it into their day or to even or they feel guilty if they take even a Sunday morning by themselves to try to scribble down whatever they want to scribble down. because they there's a There's an itch in there. There's a burning in there that wants to come out but it can be maybe difficult to have that conversation like because if ah you're doing this then someone else is saddled with various various chores and chores and just the the machine of keeping a house up and running so you know just but for just because we're talking about writing and art in that sense you know ah how can someone broach that topic that they need to they might need that that time ah you know for themselves but it and not feel guilty about it
00:44:01
Speaker
So everybody needs time for themselves. I really do believe that. And what you do with your own time is up to you. So whether it's going to the gym, going for a walk, taking an art class, reading a book, writing a book,
00:44:16
Speaker
That's a conversation that you need to have with your partner. And you need to say, look, can can we give each other this gift of time? And what what can I do to give you this? Because here's what I'm thinking you can do for me. And if that's juggling kids in a certain way, or putting your kids in an activity, or splitting up some chore responsibilities to make this happen, it's only going to enhance your relationship if you have that conversation and you each feel self satisfied by doing something else. And ideally this book will help people find a partner that they can go to with these things of I really need 30 minutes every Saturday morning. Do you think we can make that work for both of us?
00:45:04
Speaker
And yeah when you're writing a ah ah book, there's invariably you know the the doubt that creeps in all the time. I ill often have a two to three a.m. voice. I'll just wake up over the last two years. yeah I was just like, oh no, that's so brutal. Yeah, waking up, you're like, did I make the right phone call? Am I going to be able to talk to this person, or is this person going to block somebody else from me? like Our book experiences were different, but i the anxieties are kind of the same.
00:45:31
Speaker
And so for you, how does how does your book stress and book anxiety manifest itself? That's such a good question.
00:45:43
Speaker
I am so passionate about what I've created, and I've really believed in this story from the get-go. I think most of my book anxiety came at the beginning before this was a thing in terms of, will this book sell? Will it go to the right place? Will I then be able to execute on this mountain that I have set out for myself to climb? But once I have gotten my head around what the plan is and how I'm going to achieve the goal, I kind of put my anxieties
00:46:23
Speaker
aside, if that makes sense, not to say that I don't have them, but I find when I'm so passionate about a project and I'm really doing it initially for myself because I believe in it, then um then i the only thing that's waking me up at 2 a.m. is my kids.
00:46:43
Speaker
And it's it's it's great to note that ah anxiety in there. ah Did you come to see it as it means that you're you're confronting you're confronting something that's very important to you? Like it it wouldn't be there if this wasn't important and you knew you had to kind of push into that discomfort?
Passion Overcoming Anxiety
00:47:01
Speaker
A hundred percent. i I loved this project and I knew I was going to make it happen in whatever form.
00:47:10
Speaker
It was, I was not going to stop until I made it happen. And you you interview a ah ah lot of people, a lot of experts, um some some very famous experts. and And what comes with that turf is sometimes a degree of interview or performance anxiety, you know, a lot of research, like how much do you prepare and how much do you leave yourself open to the the casual back and forth and to the flow of a conversation. So what was your your interview prep like if you were, you know, approaching, say a doctor or a parallel or Susie Orman or some some somebody of the that stature?
00:47:48
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, there was always the fear that when you hold people like this on a pedestal, that you were going to meet them in this interview setting and then they were not going to live up to whatever you had built them up to be in your mind. So I always found that that was.
00:48:04
Speaker
interesting for me going in and where I held these people and their esteem in my mind. um I'm a researcher, I'm a preparer. I would get a bit nervous before these conversations because I was, I would always feel like, oh gosh, I hope they're going to like my concept as much as they've said they would over email, but now that I'm in front of them, oh, dear God, what is this gonna look like? But again, I'm a researcher. I would always have questions laid out, not a ton, because I didn't wanna ask too much of these people's time. And then, yes, we would riff. I was confident in what I wanted to speak with them about. And look, Suzy Ormond was great, and I knew she was going primarily in the money chapter, so I was able to have focus
00:48:52
Speaker
on her in different ways from like a Dr. Lori Gottlieb or Dr. Nicole Lapera, who are these incredible psychologists who have such vast knowledge. I mean, I could have talked to them for hours and hours and hours and hours, you know, and and then figured out where they needed to go in the book. So I always had pretty targeted questions for them. And then also left us time to riff. And that's when they shared some really beautiful things. I mean, I did not expect to talk to Lori Gottlieb about money at all, but she brought it up and she brought up how money affects all areas of your life. And she told a story about herself, which I put in the book. And that was not something that was planned at all, but it happened naturally. So I went there and it was so good that I used it in the book.
00:49:41
Speaker
Invariably, when we sit down to write, be it a novel or or prescriptive nonfiction in your latest book's case, not every day is sunny at
Strategies for Bad Writing Days
00:49:50
Speaker
the ledger. So how did you weather, particularly by your definition, a bad day at the computer?
00:50:00
Speaker
I would just keep going. I would put my blinders on and I would just keep going or I would stop, meaning mentally I would keep going and I would really try not to let it derail me. But physically, if it wasn't there, I would not force myself to sit at my computer And right, I mean, there are times where I'd go take a really long shower. I love to think in the shower. And I would just let myself stand under the water and think about stuff. Or I'd think about something totally different, but get into the shower and just kind of chill out. Or I would go for a walk. Or I would call a friend. Or I would have a snack. And I wouldn't put the pressure on myself.
00:50:40
Speaker
at that time to just hammer out words. There's a difference, again, to go back to what we were talking about at the beginning, there's a difference in just letting your fingers riff on the keyboard than making yourself hammer out shit. Just to say you hit a thousand words that day. Do you know what I mean?
00:50:58
Speaker
Well, even at the start of our conversation, you talked about not being precious about certain things. And I think that's especially key because people get very – they hold – we all hold our – the people we revere yeah on pedestals to some degree and we read their stuff and like, wow, this stuff is just like – my work does not measure up to fill in the blank. Yeah, totally.
00:51:21
Speaker
but they invariably they know how to write through bad stuff to get the good stuff but oftentimes we're not told how bad the stuff is to get to that good stuff so we have to get comfortable with it ourselves so for you just how have you gotten comfortable. You know writing enough bad words because you you know the good ones are coming you just need to wrestle through that mud.
00:51:41
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes out of the bad really does come the good. I mean, I like to get it down because often, so often I'm right. If that makes sense in the beginning, what I'm writing is correct. It's just a bit of crap writing, right? So like,
00:51:57
Speaker
I know what I'm trying to say. I know sort of how I'm going to get there. And once that is put down on the page, then I can take a step back, maybe take an hour or two, and then go back to read it to really see the global picture of what I'm trying to do. So it's just kind of like knowing where I want to get to, but having that first draft is not always the the best way to get there. But if you don't get that first stuff down,
00:52:28
Speaker
then you have nothing to work off of. Right. I love that. Well, Lindsay, as I bring these conversations down for landing, I always love asking ah the guests, you in this case, for a recommendation of some kind for the listeners out there. And that can just be anything you're excited about. ah It doesn't have to be a book, though a lot of people recommend books. But i'd I'd love to just see what you might anything that's kind of bringing you joy that you want to share with the listeners that extend that to you.
00:52:53
Speaker
Gosh, what's bringing me joy right now? So it's funny because I listen to books. I don't have time actually to sit and read.
00:53:04
Speaker
um So, for me, listening to books is just the biggest gift. um There is a book coming out, and i'm I'm actually looking it up as I talk to you right now because I can't remember the name. Yes, here it is. So, um I have read this book. I happen to know the author, so I'm sure A lot of your listeners have heard of the Nanny Diaries, and the Nanny Diaries was written by Emma McLaughlin and Nicola Krauss. They wrote a ton of books together, and Nicola Krauss, who's a good friend, is coming out with her first solo book. It's coming out this spring, and it's called The Best We Could Hope For, and I can't wait to read that in book form. I've read the initial manuscript.
00:53:48
Speaker
it is incredible. It's incredible. And um actually, she'd be a great person for you to talk to having gone from a popular writing duo to now writing her first solo book, that's probably a great conversation. That's something I'm looking for in the literary world that's coming out that I know is going to be pretty epic. So that's that. And then um what else am I looking forward to? Looking forward to spring. I like warm weather. I'm done with the winter. How's that?
00:54:16
Speaker
I love it. I love it, Lindsay. So awesome. Well, thank you so much for carving out some time to talk a little shopping about your your latest book, which is ah you know a really valuable resource for for people of self-discovery and conjoined discovery, if you will. So yeah, thank you so much for carving out the time and coming on the show, Lindsay. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
00:54:42
Speaker
toe tappping good one they all are to some extent that's my gift right I'm sorry I'm like this. Thanks very much to Lindsay for her time and insights. Thanks also to the Power of Narrative Conference for promotional support. I'm supposed to be a presenter.
00:55:00
Speaker
ah But I'm sort of scared to fly while Musk keeps gutting the government instead of, you know, maybe taking a few bucks out of the military budget. But no, he can't have that. Or hey, maybe tax the billionaires appropriately. But yeah I can't have that either. But let's keep ruining the lives of the working middle class. Should have been an oligarch. Where was I? Oh, yes, the funk, the book funk, the post book funk.
00:55:26
Speaker
Hard to believe that just over two years ago to the day it was announced that I'd be working on a biography about Steve Prefontaine and it consumed my every waking and at times non-waking thoughts. For a while now it's been a challenge to drum up motivation to proceed with the next project.
00:55:46
Speaker
My agent likes my next project and she's like, get something together, get to make some inroads, prove you've got some momentum, that you've got some sources, and we'll make a pitch. No need to do anything as expansive as a book proposal because the prefontaine book is, for now, like proof that I can do the job.
00:56:05
Speaker
You think that would be motivation enough for ye olde podcast host? I have the time. It's not like I have to thread it around a day job right now. I can't say I'm burned out. I'm just kind of floating along in a funk. I obsessively tidy the house, clean the floors, the bathrooms, make the bed, put the clean dishes away. You could say I'm procrastinating and you wouldn't be wrong, but you wouldn't be correct either.
00:56:37
Speaker
It's a bit like having completed a marathon. The last thing you want to do is start training for another one. But since I turned in my final, final, final draft a couple weeks ago, I'm slowly starting to get into the groove. Like, okay.
00:56:52
Speaker
The idea is solid. Now we need to start making the calls, writing some soft email intros, finding the names, going to whitepages.com, going to fast people search, finding the numbers, finding the emails. You start in the outermost orbit, not so far that there's no gravity.
00:57:12
Speaker
But then you get a little bit closer, a little bit closer, and then you've amassed maybe a couple dozen calls, and the tape is filling up, and the spreadsheet is expanding, and you've got enough proof of concept to write the movie trailer.
00:57:26
Speaker
There's no new concept, but it's Newtonian in that a creative project in motion wants to stay in motion and a creative project that has no movement is very hard to get moving. I'm in this latter phase while also trying to come up with creative ways to expand the CNF pod universe into compelling and entertaining and fulfilling YouTube content like it won't just be like clips and po the podcast the podcast is up on YouTube But it's just the audio What I have in mind is more akin to what the gamers do, but I'm not I'm not entirely sure how to pull it off. I'm still thinking it through as far as I'm concerned YouTube is kind of the next frontier in the expansion of
00:58:14
Speaker
of taking my taste and sensibility and making something that is like a neighboring city in the same county. Thing is, I have a hard enough time having to listen to my own stupid voice, and the idea of having to then look and edit my even more stupid face gives me the heebie-jeebies. No matter, this is all part and parcel of the funk. How will we emerge from the funk? Tune in next week on the creative nonfiction podcast.
00:58:44
Speaker
Stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interviews, see