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Episode 244: Jackie MacMullan on the Fear of Failure, Writing that Teaches You, and the Final Chapter of 'Best American Sports Writing'
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Jackie MacMullan, columnist for ESPN and a long-time writer for The Boston Globe, stops by the show to talk about being the final guest editor for The Best American Sports Writing.
Show notes are at brendanomeara.com.
Care to support the show a little more? Become a member at patreon.com/cnfpod where you'll get exclusive access to the audio magazine, transcripts, and more!
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Transcript
The Art of Source Building in Journalism
00:00:02
Speaker
What I love about talking to the OG reporters is the rigor that goes into developing sources, finding stories, and the time spent on the phone or shooting the breeze, and playing a certain long game. It's something I deeply admire, especially as somebody who identifies as one of the world's worst reporters.
Tribute to Jackie McMullen's Dedication
00:00:27
Speaker
So it was great to hear one of the best reporters, one of the great chroniclers of basketball, Jackie McMullen, talk about the work. When you've talked to 10 people and you think that's enough, talk to 10 more. And you may only use a little snippet of what they told you. It's often not even a quote. It's just a scene or a piece of information, just a little tidbit of something. And it's going to make the story better.
Introduction to Podcast with Jackie McMullen
00:01:01
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's right. Brought to you by Exit 3 Media. This is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories.
00:01:11
Speaker
I'm your host Brendan O'Mara. Today I'm joined by Jackie McMullen, a writer for ESPN, a longtime columnist for the Boston Globe, my hometown paper. Her column headshot was something I grew up seeing in the sports pages of the Globe as my dad cracked that newspaper.
00:01:31
Speaker
folded it back on itself with the precision of a sleight of hand artist. And there was Bob Ryan, Dan Shaughnessy, Mike Barnacle in the city section, whom my dad loved, Peter Gammons, and then, of course, Jackie Mack.
00:01:48
Speaker
She's the author or co-writer of several books, including When the Game Was Ours, with Larry Burden, Irvin Johnson, better known as Magic Johnson, Gino, In Pursuit of Perfection, about Yukon women's basketball head coach, Gino Oriama, and she is the last in a long line of incredible guest judges for the best American sports writing series.
Jackie's Influences and Fear in Writing
00:02:13
Speaker
series editor being the great Glenn Stout. In this episode, we talk about Jackie's early influences, what writers turned the light on for her, writing that teaches you something, how fear drove her and drives her, and of
00:02:30
Speaker
horse. Best American sports writing. I think you'll dig this and we'll get there in a moment. Be sure to head over to BrendanOmero.com for show notes and to subscribe to the monthly newsletter where I give out reading recommendations.
00:02:45
Speaker
cool articles and an exclusive VIP code that gets you a monthly CNF and happy hour. Sometimes you just talk about something that's a theme, other times they have guests, special guests, usually people who have been on the show, essay writers, memoirists, reporters, and we talk shop so you can pick their brains and put a little of that stuff in your cart so when you check out
00:03:11
Speaker
you can get free two-day shipping on some pretty damn good insights. Newsletters where it's at. I've deleted my Facebook accounts, even the personal one which is just there so I could have the CNF pod one, and it just doesn't work. It doesn't work and it's borderline evil, I think. That's not news anymore. So I've deleted those accounts. I might not be too far away from deleting Instagram and Twitter.
Social Media's Impact on Journalism
00:03:39
Speaker
I don't know yet, and that should give you an idea of how insidious social media has become, but I'd like to think it's possible to grow a digital product of this nature without those terrible engines of destruction and manipulation. Stay tuned for my parting shot at the end of the show where I recount the major blunder where I should have lost my job this week
00:03:59
Speaker
and an update on issue two of the audio magazine and also a new patreon tier.
Jackie's Journalism Journey
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Speaker
There might be a few new folks joining this cnf and rodeo so why don't we get right into it with the one and the only Jackie McMullen.
00:04:26
Speaker
As a reader early on in your life, the Globe columnist Ray Fritz Gerald was a big influence for you. When you were reading him, what was it about him that lit a fire and spark with you? Well, I was just a kid, so I think it was his storytelling abilities. We had a rule in our house. You could read the sports pages, but you had to read the rest of the newspaper first. That was my dad's rule.
00:04:55
Speaker
So I learned a lot by doing that, learned a lot about the world and politics and I got very interested in politics because of that. But I
Mentors and Writing Philosophy
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Speaker
feel like I learned about writing from Ray Fitzgerald and reading him and just how he captured my imagination. And you would read something that he wrote and you felt like you were sitting right there. And as I got older and determined that I'd really like to be a writer myself, I thought, how can I do that? And I was fortunate enough
00:05:23
Speaker
to grow up in the New England area. After Ray Fitz, there was Lee Monfield, who, by the way, did the exact same thing, wrote about the human condition, wrote about the human personality. And he's a good, good friend. Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of meeting Ray Fitz. He passed away before I got a chance to meet him. But Monfield's one of my closest friends, and the way he could capture a scene and capture the pulse of what was happening, I thought, wow, how can I do that?
00:05:52
Speaker
I understand Catcher in the Rye was a formative book for you. Isn't it for everyone? It is for everyone because you're just identifying with this character. Because when we're young, we're also a little uncertain and a little eccentric and a little unsure of who we are. We're trying to form our own identity. My son who is not in our business at all.
00:06:14
Speaker
And who actually honestly was a as a young guy
The Necessity of Persistent Inquiry
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Speaker
not much of a reader now all of a sudden is becoming one and He reread catcher in the rye and said mom you're right. That's a spectacular book But I guess it took him till he was 24 to really stop and think about it I think before that it was just an assignment in school
00:06:34
Speaker
Yeah, that was the first book I truly fell in love with. And I just had, Holden just resonated with me and his irreverence and the way he could just needle at Stradladder and call him the secret slob. And then Stradladder just goes over his head because he's a meathead. And I just, I loved it. The best way for me not to read a book in high school is for you to assign it to me.
00:07:01
Speaker
Right. But that one, I devoured it. I'm like, oh, this is... It turned a certain light. I'm like, oh, you can do this with language. Well, that's it. And you know, my dad was someone that I admire greatly.
Literary Influences from Family
00:07:12
Speaker
He's 95, still alive. God bless him. Oh, that's great. All of my parents were big readers, but my dad, whatever he was reading after he was done, I would try to read it. And I remember one of the ones I read was Winds of War by Herman Wook. I think you say Wook. Is that how you pronounce it, Herman Wook? W-O-U-K. Anyway,
00:07:32
Speaker
That was probably not the best book to be reading when you were nine or 10. And I thought, you know, and then he, I think there was a book by Faulkner around our house and I tried to read that. I was like, whoa, I don't know what's going on here. So some of it was a little over my head as a kid.
00:07:49
Speaker
Yeah.
Overcoming Early Career Challenges
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah. And I love that you grew up in Westwood. It must have been pretty darn special given where you grew up to eventually not only cut your teeth at the globe, but the thrive at the globe. Oh, it was. I still tell everybody. I still can't believe it happened. I was a student at the University of New Hampshire.
00:08:12
Speaker
And back then, UNH had a great relationship with the Globe, mostly because of Jack Driscoll, who was the executive editor of the Globe and had a great relationship with one of my professors whose name was... Don Murray was a professor of mine at UNH and had a great relationship with Jack Driscoll. So UNH had an automatic spot with the Boston Globe every summer. So for me, it was not in sports, it was in the news side.
00:08:37
Speaker
but of course I wanted to be in sports.
Strategic Career Moves for Journalism
00:08:39
Speaker
So I would do my shift with the news, but then I'd sort of hang around the sports department. And one of the other interns that summer was a gentleman named Ian Thompson, terrific writer, who worked with me at the Globe for a bunch of years, and then went on to the National, worked for the International Herald Tribune, worked for Sports Illustrated, just a gifted, gifted writer. It was so far ahead of me when we were both
00:09:05
Speaker
doing that at those internships. And he was the sports intern. So that's how I got my foot in the door at the Globe. And of course, you weren't supposed to be a graduate to do that internship program. But because I was playing basketball at the University of New Hampshire, I wasn't able to do these internships during the school year because I had basketball and it covered both semesters. So I was a little behind on my internships. So what I did was I deferred my graduation so I could be eligible for the summer internship.
00:09:34
Speaker
That was another professor of mine, Andy Merton, who thought that up pretty smart. So of course, by halfway through the summer, everybody knew that I actually was graduating because I just never left there. My shift would be up and I would just stay for hours on end, just in case something came up.
00:09:51
Speaker
I love that. And I love that you brought up Andy Martin because that was
Mentorship's Role in Skill Building
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Speaker
a note I made in reading the introduction to Best American Sports Writing. I was wondering if maybe you could take us to that moment when you were a student at UNH studying under Martin and trying to find your voice as a writer. Right. Well, Andy was a great writer in his own right, but an excellent professor as well.
00:10:17
Speaker
I was taking a magazine writing course, so I was a senior by that point. And it was a challenging course because Andy, I think Andy's feeling was, all right, the training wheels are off. Now you're going to graduate soon. You're going to hopefully go work somewhere to write. You have to know how to do this. And I would write these features, and I would pass them in. And you know, read letters, send it back, teach me something. Every time, teach me something, I thought, what the heck?
00:10:45
Speaker
But after a while, I understood what he was saying. The whole point of writing a profile of someone or a feature or a story is you want the reader to finish and say, wow, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wouldn't that be great every time you wrote something that someone would put it down after it was done and said, of course, now we're all online. But back in the day for me, it was newspapers.
00:11:06
Speaker
You'd say, wow, I didn't know that. So I spent my entire senior year trying to get one time where Andy Merton said, yeah, you got it. And it was actually a story about a friend of mine who was an ROTC at University of New Hampshire. I think her name was Mary Brady. She was a wonderful young lady and she was going to jump out of an airplane and she was terrified.
00:11:30
Speaker
And that's what I wrote about. And that's the one that finally got me to pass the test.
Interviewing Techniques for Rich Stories
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Speaker
Andy Merton finally gave me the thumbs up. Oh, that's great. Embedded in that, of course, to get to that moment where you might be teaching someone something that they didn't already know about, someone who might be a fairly prominent figure, it's like what you've harped on in a lot of conversations you've had with other people is that you've got to spend a lot of time and you've got to make the extra phone call.
00:11:59
Speaker
That's right, and actually I'm in the middle of doing a piece on Trey Young right now, the Atlanta Hawks, a very successful young guard who just so talented, but I'm knee deep in this story. I've talked with high school friends, college teammates, old coaches, his parents, and I have learned so much about him, and I'm gonna talk to Trey this weekend. So I feel like now I'm armed and ready for him.
00:12:27
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. I love that kind of legwork of, you know, you talk to someone and you're like, well, can you give me maybe like three, maybe five more people to call? And then you just kind of start building a mosaic. And it's it's really the one of the more fun parts for me. I'm not crazy about cold calling and everything. But once I get going into the interview process and digging into people and really getting them to speak in terms of scenes and what things mean,
00:12:52
Speaker
It really is where the juice is for me. And I wonder maybe where is the juice for you? No, it's 100%. I always tell people when you've talked to 10 people and you think that's enough, talk to 10 more. And you may only use a little snippet of what they told you. It's often not even a quote. It's just a scene or a piece of information. Just a little tidbit of something. And it's going to make the story better. The problem is that sometimes you interview all these people and you may interview them at length.
00:13:20
Speaker
And then when the story comes out, you've only used a little bit of what they told you. And sometimes people get bummed out by that. That's the only drawback.
Balancing Research and Writing
00:13:27
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Cause sometimes they're like, you spent an hour with me, but you only use that one little, you distilled everything I told you into one sentence or something. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I was talking to Pete Croato who just published his first book from hang time to prime time about sort of the eighties NBA when David Stern was taking it to the next level.
00:13:47
Speaker
And he's very much like that of, you know, maybe you read an entire book, but it's, and it takes a little labor to do that. But in that book, there might be just one little thing that you just, you found that little, you were panning for gold and you found that nugget and it's just like, oh, that just made everything so much richer. There you go. That's it. And it doesn't always happen. Sometimes you do a story and you just bang your head against the wall and just never, or someone you call, you can't wait to talk to because you think they're the ones are going to flush it out for you.
00:14:16
Speaker
It turns out that's not the case at all. And then some people that you maybe weren't even sure was worth calling, they turn out to be the one. You just never know. Right.
00:14:26
Speaker
Have you ever found over the course of making these dozens and dozens of calls sometimes that it can be easy to productively procrastinate by just saying, all right, I'll get to the writing, but I need to make another call? Oh, gosh, yes. I'm guilty of that. Ask my editors. They'll always say, are you done? I'm like, well, there's a few more people I need to call. And they're like, no, no, no. We need you to start writing. So guilty is charged on that.
00:14:51
Speaker
Right. I love that you wrote that exceptional writing transports us on journeys we never imagined, immersing us so thoroughly that we actually taste the dust. When you're reading something or when you're doing the reporting, how are you getting to that moment as a reporter to really put us there? We are smacking our lips because there's dirt in our mouths. Right.
00:15:22
Speaker
I used to be a little more subtle about it. Now when I interview people, I just ask them so many questions. And I can tell sometimes, they'll tell me a story and I'll say, well, I want to go back to that story for a minute. Where were you? What were you wearing? And then I say to them, forgive me, I'm a details person. And then they tell me some more and I'll say, okay, thank you, but I've got to ask you some more. As I mentioned, I'm a crazy details person. And then they kind of laugh and they go along.
00:15:48
Speaker
because details, and I learned that from Susan Canavan, who was the editor of my book, When the Game Was Ours, the book that was about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and their relationship. She was just a terrific book editor. She's the one that said to me, details, give me more details. And it was, I learned a
The Power of Details in Storytelling
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Speaker
lot from Susan.
00:16:06
Speaker
Those details are so telling and so beautifully illustrative of character. And watching some of the football games last weekend, I heard Drew Brees, when he was hurt, when he was on the sidelines, he was still licking his fingers, like he was going to get in the middle. Still playing. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the muscle memory. Even though he was hurt, he was just doing it instinctively. And it's just like, what a telling detail of an obsessive person.
00:16:34
Speaker
That's a great, that's a great detail. Did somebody write that or did you just hear him say it? I heard him say it. Like he just was like, you know, he was still so in it, even though he wasn't even suited up on the field. It was, he was still like, okay, well, I'm getting ready for the next play. I'm dropping down underneath, you know, ready, go. And he's still licking his fingers and he's on the sideline. It's crazy.
00:16:55
Speaker
I bet every writer that covers your breeze is sorry they didn't get that themselves. No kidding, right? Oh, that's like the perfect little detail. It is. And I also read that, you know, a big part of what motivated you, especially early on, and I suspect probably your entire career even to this day was sort of a terror of failing. So how has failing been a fuel that maybe burned clean for you and drove you to where you are today?
Fear as a Drive for Success
00:17:22
Speaker
Well, I was so
00:17:24
Speaker
I felt inexperienced coming in because, as I had said earlier, I didn't have the occasion to do all the internships that most, you know, journalists did do when they were in college to get themselves ready for the experience. And, you know, when I got done with my internship at the Globe, I walked into Vince Doria's office. He was the sports editor at the Globe at the time.
00:17:44
Speaker
And I said, look, I'm young, I'm cheap, I'm a girl, give me a shot. And to my surprise, he actually did. And I just, I didn't feel I was prepared. I was looking at around at the people in the newsroom that I was working alongside. You're talking about Bob Ryan, Peter Gamitz, Will McDonough, Lee Monfield, Dan Shaughnessy, Bob Duffy, Kevin Dupont, these people, legends of our business. So I just thought, I got a lot of work to do.
00:18:14
Speaker
So I remember the first, you know, I was not a beat writer for very long, but the year I did it, the Celtics practiced twice a day at the old Hellenic College and you'd go in the morning and all the journalists would go in the morning and you'd interview all the players. And that was fine, I did that. But when I left, you know, I got back and I was, you know, I didn't have a tape recorder back then, it's all longhand. I'm transcribing what I had and I just had additional questions.
00:18:41
Speaker
And I thought, you know what? I should go back to that second practice. Suppose these other journalists go back to the second practice and something happens. Suppose Larry Bird breaks his leg and I got myself all worked up. So I went back to the second practice. I was the only one there. And Chris Ford, who was an assistant coach, was making fun of me. He's like, hey, Rook.
00:19:00
Speaker
You only come to the one practice, but I was allowed in back then. It was all different. Of course, now we never watch practice. You're not allowed in. This is the good old days. We're talking the 80s. The only other person in the gym was Jan Volk, the general manager of the team. I was sitting there by myself just watching practice, and I had an additional question I wanted to ask Larry Bird after practice.
00:19:23
Speaker
I was sitting there and Jan Voll came over and sat down with me and we, you know, he started telling me about the team and talking with me and whatever, just the two of us in the gym. So the practice ended and they were all running off and Larry Bird was walking off and I stopped and I said, Larry, I'm, you know, I introduced myself. I'd been around him a bit. I hoped maybe he knew I was, but I wasn't sure. I had, you know, covered the team some before that, obviously. And I said, Hey, I have a question, you know, do you mind if you have a second?
00:19:50
Speaker
Well, what had happened between the first practice and the second practice was Bird was unhappy about his contract and he had arrived late to the team. And Jan Volk at one point said, I don't know where he is. Now, Larry didn't know that when he met the media in the morning. So he's like, oh, I was delayed, whatever, but I'm here now. I'm ready to go. Well, then he found out what Jan had said and he was furious. So here's this, I forget how old I was, 26, maybe 27 year old.
00:20:20
Speaker
Standing there asking him a question about you know, I just want to make sure if you said this about why he would like and he went off Now I'm the only one there and he just went off on Jim Volk or Jim Volk was a very wonderful man and a very good general manager and someone I consider a friend to this day and But he went off on him at very unusual for this to happen, but it did Well now I got a drive home. No cell phones, of course back then. I
00:20:44
Speaker
And Jan Vo, thankfully that night we were sitting together had given me his phone number. So I had to go home and call Jan and Jan picked up and said, didn't we just talk together for about two hours? I said, yes, but I got to ask you about this. And I mean, it was a huge story. Now, the only reason I got it was because I was scared to death. That is the only reason that, and because I couldn't read my own handwriting. So there you go.
00:21:12
Speaker
I love that. Of course, these days it's hard. I think it's probably always been hard to build relationships, especially today, but I think it's always been a challenge. It's just different hurdles to get over. To have those conversations that don't end up in the paper, but they build a certain measure of trust.
00:21:34
Speaker
Um, you know, how hard is that or how is it, how do you navigate that? So you're building the trust, having those conversations, but still maintaining that critical distance that you will ultimately have to have right. Well, it was so much easier in the, you know, I guess we'll call them the old days in the eighties and the nineties because the teams were flying commercially. We were flying commercially often on their same flight. I mean, almost always you were on their flight, which meant the flight was delayed. You were in the airport with them.
00:22:04
Speaker
And so you could sit in the airport and talk with them a little bit about something. You know, you were usually staying at the same team hotel. So you'd go down and have breakfast in the morning. There was only one place to have breakfast. So chances are you'd run into one of the players having breakfast or whatever. Of course, none of that's true anymore because the team solved like private charters, no journalists on the plane as it should be. I understand that. And they leave the night after the game. You know, they often leave within two hours after the game is completed.
00:22:32
Speaker
The journalists, we often have to go out the next morning because we obviously don't have a private charter. And then the other big difference is when I was young in the 80s and even somewhat in the 90s, you could show up two hours early to practice and players would be coming in and players like McHale were in there already putting in time. A lot of the guys were, Reggie Lewis, those guys, they were putting in their time. It gave you a chance to maybe have a conversation with them.
00:22:58
Speaker
Practices were open and then post practices are open. So we just had a lot more opportunity To develop these relationships you're speaking of But it's not impossible today. It's just you just have to be a little smarter about it. What I what I always remind everybody is And of course with the pandemic it's very different now because we're not we have no access but but on a normal year when there is still access I always tell everybody you've got a locker room full of people you've got 14 players and
00:23:28
Speaker
The 14th player knows everything that's going on with that team just as much as the first play. So the best player on the team, yes, you have to keep track of him because everything he says is news, right? But if there was something you wanted to know about, if there was something that happened that you wanted more details about, the 14th player, even though he may never play, was still there. And so I always tell people, don't make the mistake of going into a locker room and focusing on the same four or five people all the time.
00:23:57
Speaker
One of the reasons I have such a great relationship with Rajam Rondo is his rookie year when he wasn't playing. I used to talk to him all the time. I thought he was super interesting. He was different. He was frustrated because he wasn't playing. And oftentimes when I sat and talked with him, I didn't use any of it. It just enabled me to get to know him. And when he became Rondo of 2008 who helped the Celtics win a championship, I already had a relationship with him.
00:24:26
Speaker
I think that's for young writers. Just remember, there's 14 guys in there. They're all part of the team. And just because they don't play, you should still be developing a relationship with them because they may never play, but someday they may be one
Building Relationships with Athletes
00:24:40
Speaker
of the stars. Reggie Lewis, another great example. Of course, I already knew Reggie from college.
00:24:45
Speaker
Exactly right. Yeah, you don't know who they might end up being when they become a star and then they're going to remember like, Oh yeah, I remember when Jackie, you know, took the time to talk to me for 15 minutes when the huddle was around, you know, Kevin Garnett and, or, you know, or whatever. And they, people remember these things because
00:25:02
Speaker
I mean, they feel, especially at such an elite level, they start to feel like just avatars, but they are people. So when you remember that, it's like, oh, yeah. And then people will remember that a few years later. It's like playing that long game with them. And, you know, you're going to be able to tell a beautiful story and spin a great yarn.
00:25:23
Speaker
Right. And you know, sometimes like Ennis Cantor last year was not the most prominent player on the Celtics, but he was so fun to talk to. He loved the media. So everybody enjoyed him. That was easy. But some of these other guys who were quiet and, you know, a little more self, maybe, I don't know, controlled or what have you, and some of the best stars, they don't like to share much either. And so sometimes that's a long game. I think I spent three years getting Patrick Ewing
00:25:51
Speaker
Actually, trust me. I think it honest to God took three years I would go into the Knicks locker room and It would be pregame because back then pregame was allowed and he would immediately see me. I go. No, no interviews I'm like, no, no, no I'm not here to talk to you and I'd go and I'd sit with Alan Houston or someone else and you know Shoot the breeze with them and I did that honest to God I think almost for three years before he finally when I walked in he'd smile and say hello We'd shoot the breeze, you know, and then finally after three years I said, hey, come on. Let let's do this and you know, it was one of my
00:26:21
Speaker
One of the ones that I appreciated the most because I know how private Patrick is and his story With as it relates to Boston is not an easy one He went through a lot here in Boston, you know people when he did not choose to go to Boston College people You know did horrible things held up signs at his games and Patrick can't read and just horrible racial things and you know He went through a lot and so I can understand why anyone from Boston made him a little nervous But I would count Patrick
00:26:49
Speaker
Among all the players I've ever covered is someone that I have a great relationship with to this day. And when you're, you know, developing these relationships too, and then you, you know, sort of spin off and, uh, you know, say co-write books with say like Shaquille O'Neal or, you know, Larry and magic, like what is, um, how did you navigate, navigate that terrain?
Co-Writing Books with Integrity Challenges
00:27:16
Speaker
Well, it's not easy. And, you know, I was fortunate.
00:27:19
Speaker
with the game with ours, with Larry and Irvin, they were retired. So I wasn't covering them anymore. It made a huge difference because it's difficult to do otherwise. And, you know, I have probably, I mean, I don't think I wrote anything horrible about Larry, but, you know, in the past I had to write things that maybe were difficult. That was true with Shaq as well. In fact, Shaq mentioned it when we ended up doing the book we did together. It was his final season in Boston.
00:27:46
Speaker
And we didn't know that at the time. He was planning on playing longer, but I don't know if you remember, he had a horrible Achilles injury that ended up having, he had to have major surgery on, you know, I kept saying to Shaq, like we're doing this book, but it has to be separate from.
00:28:00
Speaker
how I would talk about you or write about you as a member of the Celtics. And so what we decided was I just wasn't gonna cover the Celtics. It just made sense. And so I didn't. That year I really did not write about them and didn't write about Shaq at all because I was in a business relationship with him. It's tricky, very, very tricky.
00:28:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I imagine that's it's got to be tough because then once that sort of the the partnership is over, like, how do you then go back to being the, you know, the reporter who can be critical of in that in that way? Yeah, but it's interesting because, you know, I've done a bunch of books now, I guess, and some of the people you can't, it's difficult, but some of the others
00:28:46
Speaker
You know, like Gino Ariema, I did a book with Gino Ariema. I don't really cover women's basketball a lot, although I love it and I follow it closely. But we don't, I wouldn't say we have much of a relationship. I don't mean that in a bad way. The relationship didn't continue so much. You know, it did in the beginning afterwards, but then, you know, over time I'm covering the NBA. He's doing what he's doing. And so we kind of went on our way to some degree.
00:29:10
Speaker
So, you know, it doesn't always carry over, I guess. Ervin, you know, Ervin was great when we did the book. And, but, you know, he's used on a lot of projects since. And when I see him, it's fantastic. And, you know, he, I did an event with Ervin and Larry before the pandemic, probably about a year and a half ago. They did a private event and I was the MC, you know. And that was a lot of fun and he was thrilled to see me, but I don't talk to him regularly, you know. So, it doesn't always turn out that way.
00:29:39
Speaker
There's the NBA writer Ben Cohen for Wall Street Journal. When I had him on the show and his book, The Hot Hand came out, he told me this great anecdote of catching Klay Thompson coming out of the locker room and walking to the bus, and it was about a 10-minute conversation. It ended up being one of his better
00:30:00
Speaker
pieces. And he, you know, got on a plane, you know, goes to, you know, Oakland, and only for this, he knew he'd probably have about a 10 minute window to catch him at this one particular moment. And when you were talking about just kind of beating the pavement, and trying to find the ways where you can actually catch them when other people can't, that reminded me of it. And it's like, okay, that's the hustle. That's like the 21st century hustle, right? Yeah, and it's difficult. You know, it's funny, you mentioned the Warriors, because
00:30:28
Speaker
They, for the most part, Clay, Steph, Draymond, they were pretty good. And Durant, too, for that matter. And I did a story, was it last year? I think it was the year before. And it was all about closing out games and what your mindset is when you're trying to take the big shot, the last shot. And I wanted to get Curry and I wanted to get Durant. And they were in Washington, D.C.
00:30:55
Speaker
But there were just too many media there. So then they went to play Boston, and they were practicing at Harvard. And it was a Sunday. And so there were just a lot less media there that day. And I remember because my husband was running. He was meeting me there. I forget where we were. We used to have been staying in the state every time. He was running to meet us. And so he came in and Kevin Durant's like, who's that? I go, that's my husband. So he's like, did he run here? I'm like, yeah. And so that, for whatever reason, was the icebreaker. And Durant gave me a great interview.
00:31:24
Speaker
That Curry interview at Harvard was the best interview of the whole story. And it was him talking about how when Kyrie hits that big shot in the finals, when it's Cleveland versus Golden State, that Curry's like, as much as I shouldn't have done this in my head, I'm like, I gotta come back, I gotta make this. And he took me through the blow by blow of what he was thinking and why he did what he did. And of course he missed it as people will probably remember. So that day was just,
00:31:52
Speaker
The right atmosphere, you know, it was a Sunday that they were done. They they were at Harvard, not a place they normally are. It wasn't they weren't in their home gym so they could sneak off. You know what I mean? It was just sometimes you just got to get the right feel. Now, there are times I've flown to a city to interview someone and I'm there for four days and I don't get what I need. Happens happens all the time, actually.
00:32:17
Speaker
Who are some of the writers, you know, coming out maybe mid-career or even the ones coming up, you know, coming up to mid-career that are, you're reading their work and you're like, oh, wow, this is some good stuff. And this is, this makes me optimistic about the future of, you know, sports and sports journalism. Oh, there's a lot out there. I mean, I mean, Kevin Arnvins, I guess, isn't super young. But I just think everything he writes is terrific. And, you know, I actually
00:32:46
Speaker
chose one of his stories
Admired Contemporary Sports Writers
00:32:47
Speaker
for the best American sports writer. And he wrote a story about the King's executive, Jeff David, who stole just millions from the Sacramento Kings. It was just an incredible story. And so he's someone, you know, I see it. I like Ben Cohen mentioned Ben Cohen. I like I like reading Ben's stuff. There's a young guy, Logan Murdoch, who just went to the ringer who I think has a really good eye and has some really interesting thoughts and mixes music and and sports. And I mean, I could name a
00:33:15
Speaker
time I'll leave somebody out. But there's a lot of great writers out there. And speaking of best American sports writing, you know, when you were given, you know, the pile that has been curated by by Glenn, and that's in your lap, you know, what, you know, take us to that, that moment of having to okay, you know, you're making the starting lineup and you know, you and you guys, you guys aren't so like, you know, what was that the calculus you were going through as you were reading those pieces?
00:33:42
Speaker
Well, the big thing everyone should know is when you get the stories, there's no byline. So you have no idea who wrote them. I don't know if people know that. So when I get the stack of the articles, I don't know which publication they're in, and I don't know who wrote them. Now, obviously, in the case of Kevin Artivits, because that story was so spectacular, that was when I had flagged, I mean, I knew a year ahead of time I was gonna do this. So I flagged that story over the course of the year. So I knew exactly who wrote that story,
00:34:12
Speaker
Glenn loved it as much as I did. So that was a slam dunk, right? Another case of that was Elizabeth Merrill, another colleague of mine from ESPN, wrote this amazing story about Shelly Pennefeather, who was a great basketball player at Villanova and ended up becoming a cloistered nun. And how her mother would only come to see her once every 10 years. And she writes this incredibly poignant story about Shelly Pennefeather and the choices she made in her family. And the fact that at this 10 year visit,
00:34:39
Speaker
her mom, who was, I think in her 70s or 80s, knew that this was probably the last time she might ever see her. And so that story, when I read it in real time, I'm like, well, this is amazing. And then there was another story on Venus Williams in the New York Times Magazine. And I didn't remember who the woman was that wrote it. It's Elizabeth Weil. I hope I'm saying her name properly, W-E-I-L.
00:35:03
Speaker
And I read that over the course of the year and I thought, wow, that's a great story. So when I read that again without the byline or the name, I already was familiar with that. But in most cases, even if I had read them before, I wasn't exactly sure where I read it, who wrote them. So that made, I always makes my conscience feel a little easier, if you will. But I will tell you a quick story. So Bill Plasky from The LA Times, who I think is
00:35:27
Speaker
greatest columnist in the country right now. Just terrific. And he's a good friend of mine. We run around the horn together. I adore him. There was a story that he had submitted, or it had been chosen by Glenn. I knew it was his, and I loved it. It was great. But in the end, it's so
Selecting Stories for Best American Sports Writing
00:35:44
Speaker
hard. You're trying to pare it down to a certain amount. And Bill's story that I knew was Bill's story, even though his name wasn't on it. I just had read it before.
00:35:52
Speaker
It wasn't gonna make the cut and I was tearing myself up because this is someone who's writing, I appreciate. It's not because I like the guy, it's because he's terrific. And I was feeling terrible about it. But you know what happened? When we finally picked the final, I forget how many stories it is, didn't you know there was a story by Bill Plaschke in it anyway? And I didn't know it was his. So that's how sometimes things work out. He wrote this incredible column about people with Alzheimer's getting together
00:36:21
Speaker
and holding baseball mitts and just reliving some of their memories through baseball. I mean, it was such an incredible story. I should have known it was his, but I was so pleased. I was so pleased when I, you know, later found out. So the trick of it is that you don't know who's writing them or where they come from. And, you know, it was such an amazing collection and so, so difficult to pare it down. And, you know, I was trying, you know, a lot of the stories are tragic and you want to make sure you're not giving
00:36:51
Speaker
people just one story after the nets of tragedy. There has to be some upbeat stories. You know, you try to balance it in that way. At least I did. And, you know, sometimes there were stories that were writing about the same thing. And that was kind of interesting. So you had to, you know, let's say three people made the finals of, like, there were three stories about mountain climbing and, you know, the tragedy that can happen when you're, you know, climbing to the top of these world class mountains.
00:37:19
Speaker
And so then my charge became, and again, didn't know who any of them were. And in the end, I ended up picking Joshua Ham's story, chaos at the top of the world, which was in GQ. And it just, the other two were fantastic. But this just, you know, you had to pick, you couldn't have all three of them in, right? So that's, those are some of the things that I wrestled with.
00:37:41
Speaker
Would you say that when you were reading these, like your barometer in a sense took you back to what Andy Merton told you about teaching me something? Yeah, the problem was all of them taught me something because they were all terrific and they were all so well written and the subject matter just would blow you away. Like one of the stories I just could not believe was it was called The Bicycle Thief.
00:38:08
Speaker
It was by Steven Leckert, and it was from Chicago Magazine. And I think we were worried that we couldn't include it because there might have been even some.
00:38:15
Speaker
you know, proprietary issues. But this story, like, you couldn't make this story up, what this guy did. He was stealing money from banks on a bicycle, but he wasn't the first bank he stole the money from. He threw the money away. I mean, it was just the craziest story. So the thing that I realized as I started going through these pieces was, you know, most of them were not
00:38:41
Speaker
profile of LeBron James or a story about Aaron Rodgers or a story about you know Gordie Howe or you know it wasn't like that I mean the the two stories that really just still haven't left me one was about a prison the Angola prison in Louisiana it was just the most brutal story and that was a story when you reference talking about tasting the dirt
00:39:06
Speaker
John Griswold wrote that and it was, oh my goodness, it was unbelievable. And it's about a prison rodeo and it just like haunting. And I still think about that story a lot because he really brought it to life and just the darkness of the whole thing. And then the other one was, it was about shooting a tiger. And it was by Brian Burrow, it was in Vanity Fair and it was about this village and this tiger who had been pushed out of its habitat by all the, you know, the development in its area.
00:39:36
Speaker
and had killed some people. And so I'm reading this piece, and I'm like, oh, yeah. Well, they got to kill this tiger. And then I'm like, oh, no, no. They got to save this tiger. And I went through this piece, and I changed my mind about five times about what should happen to this tiger. I mean, if that's not good writing, I don't know what is. Yeah, that's very much like Orwell's shooting an elephant, too, the echoes of that. Right. Yeah.
00:40:02
Speaker
And what I've found of late, I think a lot of people, especially maybe younger reporters and writers who want to do this kind of thing, I think there's a
00:40:15
Speaker
Maybe a lack of rigor when it comes to reading, and some people just don't know, like, how do you come up with a good story? And the fact of the matter is, it's like, when you read a collection of this nature, it starts tuning your intent at different frequencies. And you realize, okay, oh, these magazines are publishing this kind of story. It's not just like The New Yorker.
00:40:34
Speaker
or outside magazine, there are these other little things, and you start like, okay, I can look there, I can look there, I gotta read these things, and then you're starting to see that there's stories everywhere. You just gotta be willing to pound the pavement, as I've heard you say. Yeah, and I think, too, sometimes you have a story and you think, well, this might be okay, and it turns out to be more magnificent than you could ever imagine, and sometimes you say, ah, I wanna do this story, and you know,
00:41:02
Speaker
It just turns out to be another story about another athlete and that's always disappointing when that happens. But when you can sink your teeth into something different and look at it differently and try to get inside the mind of he or she who are performing.
00:41:20
Speaker
One of the other stories, my goodness, was about a woman who was gonna end her life, because she had this terrible affliction that was, and it was, oh my gosh, takes your breath away. Now who would ever think about that? And I've never written about mountain climbers. I've never written about people who track tigers. I've never written about rodeos. I've never written about a significant amount of things that were in this collection.
00:41:49
Speaker
And you wrote too that exceptional reporters will continue to generate captivating stories and superb writing will live on. And I loved hearing you, Elle, reading that.
Optimism for the Future of Sports Journalism
00:42:01
Speaker
And so for someone who's been doing this for so long and is still doing it at a high level and reading the amazing stuff that's coming out, coming up the pipeline, where does your optimism lie in terms of what we see, what we're hearing and what we're reading? Well, because
00:42:18
Speaker
You know, this collection proves it. There's just so many talented people who are curious. I wonder why that happened. I wonder what that's about. And the curiosity and combined with their own imagination will take you places that you would never consider. And those are the stories that most of us like to read. I mean, that is one of the remarkable things I think about this collection. Other than Venus Williams, I'm trying to think if there was anybody
00:42:47
Speaker
in this collection that people have heard of. Seriously, I'm going through it. Let me go through it right now. I mean, I don't think so. I mean, if you if you've heard of Shelly Pennefeather, God bless you. I've heard of her because I'm a college women's college basketball fan, but I'm going through this. I don't believe there was any, you know, major, you know, we were writing about Grandmaster Chess people, writing about people with Alzheimer's, writing about
00:43:16
Speaker
I mean, just go through an Olympian that didn't even come close to meddling. And that to me, I like that. I like that. It works for me. And what's encouraging about that, too, is those are the people you can get really good access to. Right. Oh, yes. That's the truth. That's the truth. I mean, the one thing, the big challenge for young people today is the really, the truly 1% athletes in each sport, they've realized, well, I'm going to control my brand.
Challenges of Accessing Athletes
00:43:46
Speaker
and I'm going to market my own brand, I'm going to create my own production company, you're not going to be able to just talk to me anymore. Tom Brady is someone I think of, LeBron. Although LeBron still makes himself available, and Tom does too, on the regular media days, it's not like they are stiff-arming. You're not seeing as many long-form pieces about either of those guys because they
00:44:09
Speaker
In fairness, they've got their own image. They've created their own image. They've created their own production companies. We got Tom versus Time. We got The Shop. And Kevin Durant's got his own production company now. He's got his own podcast. So it's going to make access to the top 1% even more difficult. And yet, I have this discussion with these guys all the time.
00:44:34
Speaker
as good as some of this stuff is. And I think LeBron and LeBron is the best at it. I mean, I think they've done just an amazing job. We could still tell their story better. I believe that. I do. I really do. And with the, you know, with a few excited, I mean, Tom versus time, that was pretty interesting too. The last dance with Jordan, that was amazing. You know, those projects are incredible, but for the most part, pro athletes who want to control their own narrative
00:45:00
Speaker
It's a mistake because I don't think it always plays out the way they want.
00:45:06
Speaker
Yeah, it was going to bring up the last dance, too, because Jordan, of course, his production company was involved in it. I'm not sure how heavily involved or how heavy handed the editorial content was through filtered through that. But it's one of those things where you got to read the credits at the end and be like, oh, as authentic as I felt that was like it still had he was still involved in it. And that creates a filter and a conflict of interest to the story that, you know, at least as a viewer, as a reader, you just have to be aware of.
00:45:36
Speaker
I guess so, but I think they covered a lot of the main issues when he wouldn't denounce Jesse Helms, the Republicans wear sneakers too. I feel like they hit on all the points that may be more controversial points. Certainly they hit on the wild rumors about Jordan stepping away from the NBA because of his gambling connections. They hit that pretty hard, actually.
00:46:00
Speaker
Yeah, and that's a credit to – I guess when you've been so far removed from it, maybe there's – I don't know. Maybe nothing to lose. Maybe that's the wrong way to say it, but at this point, it's just like, oh, I've controlled the narrative for so long. Maybe it's time to put it in the hands of the true storytellers. Right. Yeah, I liked it. I mean, I covered Jordan during all those years. I know Jordan pretty well.
00:46:23
Speaker
You know, again, teach me something. I learned a lot. I learned a lot about that. And you know what? I forgot. You forget how insane the Bulls were. I mean, Dennis Rodman is like going to Vegas in the middle of a championship run. I mean, it's insane. Just crazy. I forgot about that. I lived it, but I forgot about it. No kidding. I know. It's amazing what the time dilation will do to these kinds of things. Like when you're 20 years removed from it, you're like, oh my God, that happened?
00:46:51
Speaker
I loved the last dance, though. For me, it was just, you know, for me, a literal walk down memory lane. Yeah, I really enjoyed the insights from everybody. And I understand the frustration of Pippin and Robin and some of those other guys who felt like their story wasn't told completely. I think especially Pippin, you know, he got treated a little harshly in that. But but Jordan loves Pippin. So it's not like, you know, Jordan
00:47:19
Speaker
His truths are pretty unvarnished most of the time. Speaking of stories, we were talking about where people can find them. How do you go about curating a story idea and then keeping track of it and then pursuing it?
Future Storytelling and Pandemic Challenges
00:47:34
Speaker
It's just more difficult now. I try to talk to people a lot. I call people.
00:47:42
Speaker
GMs and coaches, especially now, it's more difficult now because my normal mode of operandists, if you would, would be, there's a game at the Bard, the Boston Garden, the TD Garden. I show up three hours early, and the opposing team is always out there working out their players, and the assistant coaches, some of whom are ex-players that I covered, whomever. You go there, you sit down, you start talking to them, you start just shooting the breeze, really, and that often leads to something that you didn't expect.
00:48:10
Speaker
I mean, that's how I ended up with this mental health series. Houston was in town, John Lucas, who I had covered for many, many years. He was a player, and then he was in charge of an addiction center, and then he was a coach, and we started talking about something. And I pointed to a player and said, what's going on with him? And he said, ah, it's the same old story. It's mental health. It's this, it's that. And I said, so how big of a deal that? He said, it's the biggest deal. I said, really? And we started talking about it. And that's what was the genesis of me
00:48:39
Speaker
what ended up being a four-part series. It took me almost a year to report and write. And I always make sure I thank John Lucas for that because he's the one that really opened my eyes to like, this is right in front of you. How come nobody's talking about this?
00:48:53
Speaker
And I love to, you know, you've said, I just love a good story. There's so many good ones. Every time I think about retiring, I'm like, ah, but I haven't done that one yet. You know, there's always a good story, another story to tell. And so, you know, that being said, you know, what are, you know, what are those stories you're looking to tell in this next sort of, you know, this next phase of your career?
00:49:17
Speaker
Well, I don't know. That's the beauty of it. I might not have even met the story yet. I will say it's just really difficult to operate during this pandemic because you're talking to people over the phone or over Zoom. And I've always found the best way to get people to really talk to you and really open up to you is to sit with them and to have a conversation and to look at each other and to see someone's reaction. So I found this a little more challenging.
00:49:46
Speaker
I'm looking forward to the pandemic ending so that we can get back to business. And I hope, you know, the big fear all of us have, all the journalists have is that, you know, the players and the coaches and everyone have gotten used to this post game zoom, no access to the locker room, you know, what's going to happen when this ends and they've, everyone's assured us, no, no, no, we'll go back to the way it was. I just hope that that's true.
00:50:09
Speaker
Right. And to have that in-person conversation where your hands are just like in your pockets and your notebooks in your back pocket, you know, those kinds of things where, you know, we're just shooting the breeze here. You know, it might lead to something down the road, but yeah, it's hard to do that without in-person because, you know, who knows what you're recording or, you know, you have to be much more forthcoming or forthright. Yeah. It's just different. It's different. And it's, you know, everybody's facing it. It's not unique to me or to you. Everybody in the business has had to deal with
Resilience and Creativity in Journalism
00:50:38
Speaker
it.
00:50:38
Speaker
And yet, great stuff coming out still. So that's what I go back to my faith and all the journalists and our brethren here.
00:50:50
Speaker
Of course, yeah, and no more illustrative than that than best American sports writing and what you were able to curate and put in front of us. And so we could enjoy that and be inspired by what's out there, what's being done, and what will still come down the line. So great work. And what a thrill. What a thrill to talk to you and talk shop, Jackie. I enjoy it, Brendan. And just so excited for everybody that was in this, what I hope is not the final
00:51:19
Speaker
You know version of the best American sports running, but I was just in awe of everybody that made the book and Believe me in awe of many who didn't and you just wish you could put everybody
00:51:44
Speaker
That was a long time coming, that conversation with Jackie. And I had a big, big testament to her endurance and the willingness to do it when it seemed like it wouldn't happen. So that it's great. Someone of Jackie's stature, she could have definitely said, you know what? Can't do it, but she did. So very nice when people like Jackie come by seeing F-Pod HQ. She's the type of person who headlines the festival. So a big thanks to Jackie and to you, of course, for listening.
00:52:14
Speaker
never forget you man. The show is a production of exit 3 media and everything by me that's production and editing you know you name it this guy you're gonna want to get on that newsletter list because as I flirt with phasing out social media all together it's gonna be the only way to stay plugged into the CNF and community
00:52:38
Speaker
And that and also the other way to plug in is through the Patreon page and those that just goes out to people who are in who are members and they get some pretty darn good goodies. Let me tell you I started a new tier $2 a month tier that is audio magazine only.
00:52:55
Speaker
$24 a year gets you access to the two issues that will come out in 2021. From there it goes up to tier 2 now which is the $4 a month tier and that gets you transcripts and other random things I post to that page and of course the
00:53:14
Speaker
access to the audio magazines and so forth shop around there's a five five total now go for it connect four shop around and support your cnf and writers also oh i forgot to forgot to mention this i didn't even type it up into my little script here but i'm still doing up till up to the time we hit a hundred ten written reviews of the podcast on apple podcast
00:53:40
Speaker
write a review, take a screenshot of that review once it has been published, and then email that to the show, creativenonfictionpodcast.gmail.com, and I will edit and coach up a piece of your work of up to 2,000 words, and I will start a dialogue and go from there. I believe we're at 103, so there's seven slots. If you've got something you're looking to workshop, looking to level up and see what the whole CNF experience is to have me
00:54:09
Speaker
and you're dug out, leave a nice review and we'll get it done. Sound good? Good, I'm glad.
00:54:18
Speaker
Submissions are starting to come in for the summer issue, man. Very excited. I'm not gonna read them yet, but it's encouraging, and I know there's a few more that people are honing that I've spoken to. I'm gonna have a poet, too, working on three summer poems that are gonna be interspersed throughout the whole thing, so it's gonna come together pretty well, man. Pretty excited. Remember, the deadline is March 21st. Guidelines are glued.
00:54:47
Speaker
to the top of BrendanOmero.com.
Impact of Fact-Checking Mistakes
00:54:50
Speaker
So at the top of the show I teased that major blunder and it was a fact checking blunder on my part. I didn't do a good enough job of fact checking a column I ran from a writer.
00:55:04
Speaker
I didn't dig deep enough into the sources the writer provided and fully vet out everything and get really into the weeds. Since I lost my helper back in May, I don't have the bandwidth I used to have, the fact check, the columns that come in like I used to.
00:55:21
Speaker
because now I have to fact check the letters to the editor and everything and people sure as hell like to use questionable sources and have questionable facts and formulate very strong opinions based on questionable sourcing.
00:55:43
Speaker
And it takes a lot of bam with a lot of energy. And naturally some things slip through the cracks and some big things slip through some pretty massive cracks in a column. Let's just say lawyers were notified. I fully expected to get fired. I mean I'm only part-time anyway and Gannett papers don't have much use for opinion pages. So I figured there was, if there was ever an excuse to cut costs, this was the opportunity.
00:56:14
Speaker
But my boss was all things considered pretty chill about the situation and we settled on this being a teaching moment. So I've been pretty obsessed with figuring out how to fact check better and develop that skill because it is a skill.
00:56:30
Speaker
And I really let the writer down. I let my boss down and I let myself down too. Really shook my confidence for a few days. I mean I'm 40 and I've been in this mess for 16 years and I've been fired before. But that was because I called my publisher cheap and he didn't like that very much.
00:56:50
Speaker
So I started thinking I'm like one of those losers that is unemployable and entitled and kind of pathetic. And if I'm being honest, I still think I'm pretty pathetic. But I'm taking this moment to get better. A failure that'll help level up the enterprise.
00:57:09
Speaker
You know we're often not allowed to make mistakes and more often the only way we grow is through mistakes. So I'm happy that this mistake wasn't a trip to the gallows which would only further make me just feel like crap and probably would
00:57:28
Speaker
Paralyze any further developments so it was nice to Be able to make a mistake and not have it cost me anything Aside from a little bit of pride a lot of pride Maybe that's my issue too. Anyway, so that happened and here we are I have some thoughts about social media and like in a reading
00:57:51
Speaker
Jaron Lanier's book on the thing and watching the social dilemma But I'm gonna save them for another time as this is dragging on and I'm sure your your kid is getting back in the car From practice and you'll probably want to put on something else So I'll just end with this stay cool. See you naffers stay cool forever. See ya
00:58:44
Speaker
you