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Episode 9: Doug Shiplett – Living Your Values Makes all Work Sacred
159 Plays8 years ago
Living out your values is important to most of us. We want to align all we do with our core beliefs. It seems complicated, but it doesn’t have to be.
In this episode of the Uncommon Life Project podcast we talk with Doug Shiplett, an entrepreneur, pastor and church planter who seeks to break down false divides between sacred and secular. With vision and purpose, all of life is sacred.
Doug Shiplett has been involved in the Des Moines business community since 2005. Initially through investment real estate with his company Antioch Investments, and now with his son John and daughter-in-law Hannah at Eden and Gray Design and Build, a custom home remodeling company, plus an exciting network marketing venture.
Doug's faith based work has been extensive as he serves currently as a visionary leader of Coleo Church network, a church planting network based in Ireland, California. Prior to that focus, Doug served as Executive Vice President and Director of International Partnerships at BILD International through 2012. And after serving as a Senior Pastor of Crossroads Bible Church in San Jose for nine years. What you’ll learn about in this episode:
- Living out your values in your career path
- Aligning a faith calling with career, family, finances and everything else in life
- Do you have to choose between “church work” and “business?”
- How to move away from dividing things into “sacred” and “secular” endeavors
- Putting your energy into the things you value most
- How to course-correct when you have not thought very thoroughly about your finances
- Setting passive income goals whatever stage of life you are in
- Why network marketing could be a good secondary source of income
- The low barrier of entry to network marketing has an upside and a downside
- How to plan for the future when there’s no employer providing a “golden parachute” when you retire
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Pursuing an Uncommon Life
00:00:02
Speaker
Everyone dreams about living an uncommon life, but how we define that dream is very different for each of us. And for most, it's a lifelong pursuit. Welcome to the Uncommon Life Project podcast. We're going to introduce you to people who are living that life or enjoying the journey to get there. We're going to also give you some tools, tricks, and tips for starting or accelerating your own efforts to live an uncommon life.
00:00:27
Speaker
A life worth celebrating and savoring.
Introducing Doug Shiplet
00:00:30
Speaker
Please welcome your hosts, Brian Dewhurst and Philip Ramsey. Hello and welcome to the Uncommon Life Project. I'm your host, Philip Ramsey. And I'm Brian Dewhurst. Thank you for that lovely intro, Fiona. That was great. Is that what we're calling it now?
00:00:42
Speaker
That is what we're calling her today. Anyway, you guys, I can't wait for the show. I always say that. Let's just be really honest with each other. We have one of our, I would say, mutual mentors, Doug Shiplet, going to be able to talk to us today. Cannot wait to unpack this, and let's just be really honest. I'm gonna hit it up right front. He is a network marketer, and if you've listened to the podcast before, you kind of know where we stand on that. Isn't that, is it good? It's just what it is.
00:01:09
Speaker
We're going to dive into it. So who is Doug Shiplet?
Doug's Background and Family Life
00:01:13
Speaker
Doug has been involved in the Des Moines business community since 2005, initially investment real estate through his company, Antioch Investments. And now with his son John and daughter-in-law Hannah at Eden and Gray Design and Build.
00:01:26
Speaker
a custom home remodeling company. Doug's faith-based work has been extensive as he serves currently as a visionary leader of Kaleo Church Network, a church planning network based in Iowa and California. Prior to that focus, Doug served as executive vice president and director of international partnerships at BUILD International through 2012, and after serving as a senior pastor of Crossroads Bible Church in San Jose, California for nine years.
00:01:52
Speaker
International faith-based work and partnerships have been at the center of Doug's work as he serves currently on two international missions boards. He has traveled in 28 countries to facilitate training in ministry. Doug has been married to his beautiful wife, Marilyn, for 40 years, and they have three children and 12 grandchildren all living in the Des Moines metro area. Welcome to the show, Doug Shiplet.
00:02:13
Speaker
Thanks, you guys. I'm honored to be here. The bio is always such a double-edged sword. I'm just a regular guy. I'm just a regular guy. So that needs to be said on the back end of that bio. That's awesome. But no, you've done a lot. You've accomplished a lot. And you've got to put you in the front lines. And so it's cool to walk through all that.
00:02:39
Speaker
Not only that, but the fact that you're working with your son and daughter-in-law and you are very intricately in woven in your whole network and your family. I'm so lucky to know most of your family members and your children, but to see the hand of God inside your family and what you do for them, it is remarkable. So thank you for leading in that. And we're excited just to dive in on who you are and how you got there and kind of your story. So let's just jump right in. Thanks, Ben. Let's talk about, you know,
00:03:10
Speaker
You are kind of at one point not where you're at today. So we usually like to take our listeners through, let's just talk about Doug Shipplett and you weren't always here.
Early Career and Mentorship
00:03:18
Speaker
Let's go kind of dive back to where you were when you were just doing the nine to five. Maybe out of college, maybe not. You can go as far back as you'd like to and kind of tell us how you got to where you're at today.
00:03:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's great, man. There's never sort of been a nine to five, but there's been probably two pretty seminal moments that change the direction of things, change the course of things. And I graduated from Bible College, Columbia International University in
00:03:47
Speaker
way back in the dark ages and Went and was an administrator at a Christian high school and the football coach there for five years and still trying to Sort of sort out exactly where I was gonna land on things, but I did feel very very Deeply that I had a faith call on my life and that that was so that that becomes layered on top of
00:04:15
Speaker
sort of the whole narrative and the story that, frankly, God has written for my life. And so from that, we chose to go back to grad school. I went to Dallas Seminary, Dallas, Texas, was there for five years and put us more on a focused course of church ministry. And
00:04:35
Speaker
I was an intern, was able to intern under my mentor, Dr. Gene Getz, who is an amazing man, author, and internationally known. And he really gave me a vision for the future and for faith-based ministry and church ministry. And so from there I went to
00:04:56
Speaker
took a position in Northern California in the San Francisco Bay Area and pastored a church there, large church there for just about 10 years before we moved into more of an international focus. And along the way, you guys, it's just been a journey of sort of two very different
00:05:23
Speaker
models of how i look at my life one is sort of what is what is my calling and then then the other things that the career recreation family money all of that stuff is a subset to the calling and i've tried that that's been the real that's those two things and keeping those two things in tension the right kind of tension with each other had been the driving force of things and
00:05:49
Speaker
causes me pretty regularly to make a set of assessments and course corrections if they're needed. And so a couple times along the way, we've made some course corrections in that. Came to Iowa in 2001 to be a part of a mission organization called Build
Transition to Iowa and International Work
00:06:10
Speaker
International. It's based out of Ames. Wonderful organization that provides
00:06:17
Speaker
the basic international training for pastors at all different levels and I was leading the international expansion of that organization through 2012 and In there was that was where some shifts began to take place in in around 2005 2006 and led us kind of to the place that we're at today and
00:06:39
Speaker
Nice. Let's go back because you were a pastor of a large church in California. How many people were you pastoring? You know, we would have on any given Sunday a couple thousand folks that were there and probably if everyone showed up at the same time, it'd probably be close to 23 or 25, 2700 cooks. Wow. Yeah.
00:06:59
Speaker
And so what was that transition like? Because California and Iowa, I don't know if you know, are a little different. So how did you stop leading and pastoring that big church and head towards Iowa?
00:07:14
Speaker
Well, the first thing you need to know is that it took me a good solid two to three years before I came that I was from Iowa when I moved here. People would say, where are you from? I go, well, I live in Iowa, but I'm from California. And so it was a big shift. But
00:07:33
Speaker
It was not, it was not as dramatic as it seems. And by the way, I love the Midwest now. I love living here. This is an amazing place to have life and business and family and all those things. But the issue was is that in this sort of
00:07:52
Speaker
separation between what's my calling, why really do I believe I'm on this earth, what do I want to accomplish in maybe the 75, 80, 90 years that I'm given. In that assessment of things, I realized that I really wanted to be about kind of a different context. And I had been connected with this organization Build International.
00:08:17
Speaker
For a few years prior to moving to Iowa at kind of a board at a board level and That led into this opportunity opening up that was more of an international opportunity and it was an opportunity to sort of in some ways Exponentially maybe reproduce myself working with leaders of movements internationally and that sort of thing and that felt right at the time it just was the it was the and I I will say guys I've never
00:08:46
Speaker
had a career path that was listed out that I said, okay, at this age, I want to do this. I just haven't done that. Things have evolved. I will say I love, I'm a connector of people. I love networking with people. And so things happen.
00:09:04
Speaker
you know, when you're engaged with people along that way. But I was very clear about the compelling vision that I wanted for my life and our family. And that led to this move to Iowa and the international work. Gotcha. So Doug, you're pastoring church, now you're helping with the board of another organization.
00:09:28
Speaker
walk our listeners through on a very high level, what were you doing financially?
Real Estate and Integrating Faith with Business
00:09:33
Speaker
You were just kind of getting paid by these positions. Did you have that entrepreneurial spirit? Was it all just totally focused on the mission field and the church?
00:09:42
Speaker
Yeah, so it's interesting. That's a great question that leads into a larger idea that I'm really passionate about, Brian. And that is, when I was 22, I had no idea what I was doing. But I knew I was coaching football, and I was sort of working in this church in Florida at the time, just graduated.
00:10:06
Speaker
And I didn't know anything other than the fact that every sort of successful financial person that I knew was engaged in real estate. OK, that's that's that's all I knew at the time. And so I remember walking in Florida National Bank.
00:10:22
Speaker
which is a bank in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida and saying, hey, I'm going to build some real estate. And will you lend me the money to do that? And, and this, and it was just, this guy just, I don't know what, maybe it was divine. I don't know. But this guy said, Hey, and this was at the time when mortgage, first mortgage money was about 14 and a half to 15% interest.
00:10:45
Speaker
Oh my goodness. And construction money was even a little higher than that until you converted. So I had a little cash. So we built our first duplex, which was a rental property when I was 22. And I loved that. Now, what happened then was that as I became more serious about what my calling was, and I really felt my calling,
00:11:10
Speaker
had a faith-based component to it, that I, simply, guys, I wanted to be someone that breathed life into people, and I felt like that my relationship with God and my relationship with Jesus Christ was how that happened. So I wanted that. That was above everything else. Well, at the time, it was like, okay, well, you can either go into business or you can go into church work. Those were the choices. Those were the choices, right? I go, well, man,
00:11:38
Speaker
This calling seems like the only option I have is going to church work. And so that led down a path where, yes, my financial care for our family was through support from either some sort of organization or the church, salary at a church, or that sort of thing. The problem with that was that I,
00:12:03
Speaker
I really have always loved entrepreneurial things. I've loved business. I've enjoyed that a lot, but it was always cast in this what I call really, really unfortunate bifurcation of secular and sacred. That's that secular work that you would do as opposed to the sacred work that you would do.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yeah, crossover. Those things are two different things, right? And that we, just the last 10 years, that has been utterly obliterated in my mind. And a key thought leader around that is a guy by the name of Tim Keller, who wrote a book, Every Good Endeavor, that talks about all of our work is sacred.
00:12:47
Speaker
All of our work is work that is under our purpose. That is a great book, by the way. It is a great book, now on my list.
00:12:58
Speaker
So tell me this, so you get to that point, right, and you have this itch of the real estate, it sounds like, and you loved it, and then you've got this, maybe pressure is the right word from other people, like it's either you go into business, you meet an entrepreneur, or you go follow your passion and lead after God, you pastor people, and you chose the go pastor people. Did you let the real estate go? Did you sell it? What did you do there?
00:13:23
Speaker
Yeah, so when I went to grad school, by that time, we had built a couple more properties and we liquidated everything because I was going to be then long distance and I didn't want to be managing properties long distance. Frankly, I still was so naive about how to
00:13:43
Speaker
to make real estate a business, you know, how to really make money at it. So we liquidate all the properties and that was set aside basically for a good solid 15, 20 years. Wow. So then you fast forward. You're in Iowa. Yeah. You're older now. You've had a lot more experience. Yeah. And walk us through. How'd you get back into it?
00:14:05
Speaker
How'd you get back into it? What was, I think, before you go on, Doug, one of the things I want to talk about is like, we talk a lot about, I think God puts something inside all of us that we just can't turn off and we can't ignore. And we reached this point that it kind of was like, I just got to do that. It's too loud. It's too loud and life is too short. So can you walk us through kind of how you then brought the bifurification of secular and sacred converging to converge and what that looked like in your life?
00:14:33
Speaker
So it's become really, really clear to me more and more as I've gotten older, why I'm here, why I'm on the earth and the legacy that I want to leave with people, my wife, my family, my grandchildren. So to do that, you have to sustain yourself and you have to be able to give your time and your energies to the things that are of value to you. In around 2005, just the financial
00:15:01
Speaker
Landscape of things with the organization that was with and that sort of thing was such that I needed to sort of be thinking about a longer term financial plan and and I had not thought about that really, really well.
Financial Crisis and Network Marketing Discovery
00:15:20
Speaker
along the way. I loved business. I loved that part of it. I didn't instinctively believe that there was a separation between secular and sacred, but it was always like we had to make one choice or the other. And so we just set out on a course of investing and saying, look, we've got to maintain a stability financially.
00:15:45
Speaker
to continue to do the things that we believe that we're called to do. And what's that going to look like in 10 years, 15 or 20 years? And that set us on a course of going after and spending time in areas of business and investing.
00:16:04
Speaker
where we could build a legacy of passive income, reoccurring income, at where now that's become really, really some specific goals, thanks to you guys, frankly. And I mean that, on commonwealth partners, helping me put some reality to that, to where we've got some really, really specific goals by the time we're 70, I'm 62 right now, by the time we're 70, that is largely based on passive income, that we can give ourselves
00:16:33
Speaker
to doing the things and giving ourselves to the time that we want to really leave the legacy kind of that we want to leave. So that I think 2005 there became some kind of a crisis moment in our thinking around that. You know I think like if you're not of the faith there is always you're probably not listening by now let's just be really honest but if you're not
00:16:55
Speaker
There is always this poll, which I love, Doug, that's not on you, but there is this poll of like, should I do a career or should I go entrepreneurship, right? And it doesn't seem like those can cross, kind of like you're talking about. So it's somewhat similar there. And I think a lot of people wrestle with that, but I do appreciate that you would just talk about that and how hard it is and how that's complete old school thinking. And you can pursue being an entrepreneur and a business owner as well as following your passions in Jesus and all that.
00:17:25
Speaker
Kudos to you. Just one little addition to that, Philip, as you're saying that, whether you're a person of faith or you're not a person of faith and your calling or your purpose is connected to what you believe a relationship with God or not, it really doesn't matter. Frankly, there's got to be a compelling vision in your life
00:17:48
Speaker
That drives you money and money isn't it money? It's just a commodity, you know in that in that scenario It's just a it's just a it's just a thing that that begins to help you accomplish Who you are as a person and that so I'd say Yeah, I mean my head is connected very very deeply to my faith But you gotta have some reason man. You gotta have some purpose. That's a way bigger than just how you spend eight hours a day and
00:18:16
Speaker
You know, and we always say like, what is your why? Why are you doing what you're doing? And the reason why we try to always fall back on that for every client that we work with is because things are going to get real tough and they're not always going to go how you want them. And then if you don't have that why or that why isn't loud enough, chances are then when it gets really tough, you're out, you know, like it wasn't. But if you can focus, if it's like money, like let's say I'm doing it because of the money. Okay.
00:18:41
Speaker
Not the why that I think I would push into, but there's some people like that. I think at some point when that path gets hard and weedy, it seems like people will stop if they don't know their why. And if they're passionate enough about their why, I'm thinking of a person that I know that has a foundation. He's trying to start a foundation for people who have lost their child due to miscarriage.
00:19:06
Speaker
And his experience was that he and his wife had a child and then they had a second and then that ended up being a miscarriage. And his bill was bigger than the one that was when his son actually that's living. And so he starts a foundation because he wants to help other people that have a miscarriage not have to have that big bill.
00:19:29
Speaker
Like that's a powerful why that's big and that's a bigger why that so it's a bigger than okay the money or this that the other like he can fight through that stuff because he knows his why and he's super passionate about it so Totally echo what you're saying. So Doug because we know your story a little bit things did get tough
00:19:46
Speaker
After 2005, can you walk our listeners through that valley and then how God brought you out of that? Yeah. We made some initial investments in real estate and then 2008 hit, which further exacerbated the financial crunch. We just found ourselves just
00:20:09
Speaker
Buried in debt and really really buried in debt and loving what we were doing this the work that we were doing and the international work and and all the what I call like friendships and the Covenant friendships that we we had with with people around the globe We wanted to keep keep at that until we feel like that, you know, we were being pulled in a different direction or whatever We didn't want money to be the thing that stopped it. So we just were scrambling to try to find someone that's when
00:20:37
Speaker
Someone introduced us to network marketing and I had never been around it before. I kind of understood it a little bit. I didn't have Philip's response to it quite the same way, but I had similar feelings about it. I go like, yeah, I don't want to, that's not something I want to do.
00:20:58
Speaker
Um, until I understood it and realize, um, you know, what, what really is at the heart of the business model of network marketing and why it's so powerful. And some people very, very great, good, successful people have gone before us to lay a foundation to the industry now, which is quite different than it was 30 or 40 years ago. Yeah. So that, that, that turned things around. That started the turnaround. That was around 2008, 2009.
00:21:26
Speaker
What's the heart of the business model? Let's just go there. The heart of the business model is you have a really, really quality product that you're passionate about that you are choosing to market that model through a word of mouth, person to person, belly to belly, marketing,
00:21:53
Speaker
strategy as opposed to more sort of formal or what we might call traditional marketing strategies that's the heart of it is just bringing a product to market and you are incentivizing.
00:22:08
Speaker
and commissioning people to do that. And the more that you become a professional in it, or you can market and brand yourself and your authenticity and your integrity in it, the more successful that you are. Those that believe that network marketing is a
00:22:31
Speaker
A fast, easy way to success that they're going to make millions of dollars. They're not going to work that hard and they're going to do it on the backs of other people. Frankly, are just really, really naive and completely misunderstand what network marketing is all about.
The Philosophy of Network Marketing
00:22:48
Speaker
But there is a history of some bad stories out of network marketing, as well as there's a history of bad stories around a lot of industries. But we don't abandon those industries. So it has to do with the timing, the right product, the passion for the product, and that sort of thing. Yeah, I think that it goes back to your why, right? Like, why are you doing what you're doing? And if it's a passion,
00:23:15
Speaker
I totally get that that could be a good thing if it is truly a why. And what I think I've experienced is with probably those bad eggs and they're probably 11 out of the 12.
00:23:28
Speaker
are doing it for the money and doing it because of a business or their drive by their why, which is money. And then it's just not genuine or authentic like you talked about. And so that's where it muddies the waters a little bit for me. And so that's why I've met
00:23:49
Speaker
Six or seven network marketers that were just really off-putting to me and that's not like everybody But if you're passionate about the product, I totally understand that you would talk about it It breaks down for me a little bit when then okay wait you're getting paid on this now like that's where I think it breaks down But then here's what Brian's side of it like you're pretty passionate about your job, man, and you get paid for that Okay
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah you know what you're saying is so good let me tell you part of the part of the barrier in network marketing is this that you become and for a lot of people this is new territory for them but you become your own brand and you're an entrepreneur.
00:24:34
Speaker
That's the only way if you don't treat it as a business and with all the professionalism of a business and the long-term view the ability to To sort of you know, you know hold off on gratification until you know later and all of the things that you have to do and building the business if you're not capable of doing that then it comes off very disingenuous and it does come off very sort of usury and
00:25:03
Speaker
That's a real problem. I'd say it's the same thing in any number of sectors, in financial planning, in real estate, in lawyering, in banking.
00:25:19
Speaker
I mean, any number of sectors we can give you really abusive examples of abusive sort of use of that platform. What I love about network marketing is that when you find a product that you are passionate about,
00:25:36
Speaker
Um that again, that's just a subset, you know, my calling is is sits on top of this on top of network marketing This helps fund your this helps fund it and you and i've got to be i've got to be really really passionate about The the thing that i'm promoting and the brand that i'm creating around that that it's actually see I I my my
00:26:02
Speaker
Sit down with anyone or my presentation with someone is all about bringing value to their lives because my product does that so if you don't if you don't have that as a basis money as a motivator really what runs thin very very quickly and frankly that's not that's not an approach that will will bring you long-term success in network marketing.
00:26:25
Speaker
So Doug, you were at a pretty tough point with you and Marilyn in your life, you know, with the downturn in real estate and just overall economy. And this is one of the main reasons I do like network marketing is because God has called you to so much in the sacred realm or kind of what we're talking about, just on the mission field, you didn't have a lot of capital to go start a traditional business. Yeah, that's right.
00:26:50
Speaker
I mean, talk about what it costs you in Maryland to get into this. And on the average, what does it cost to get into a network marketing opportunity? And then could you just share like super high level, I mean, you're making significant amount of money from this now. Can you talk about that?
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, sure. This is one of the upsides and the downsides of network marketing. The very, very low barrier of entry for someone that gives them access to enormous opportunity.
00:27:25
Speaker
Now the upside of that is low barrier of entry. The downside of it is low barrier of entry, which means you don't take it super seriously. And it's kind of like, wow, you know, how could this, you know, this small investment really turn into something that they're saying is a potential. So, I mean, frankly, if, you know, if it, if it took you,
00:27:51
Speaker
If it took you a six figure investment, I just looked at a piece of real estate this morning and it's a seven figure piece of commercial real estate. It's got a great tenant. It's a five, five and a half percent cap rate, which is not super high, but it's solid as a rock.
00:28:09
Speaker
But it's, you know, it's gonna be, it's five or $600,000 to get into that, which is, that's outreach for most people. So you just, you look at that and you go like, man, this is such a low barrier of entry. And that's what I love about it. The problem is, is that it breeds a sort of hobby kind of approach. And if you treat this like a hobby,
00:28:35
Speaker
Then it becomes um getting hobby results you're getting hobby results and it's the kind of you get the kind of approach to it philip that you've resisted that you've had the bad experiences with Whereas if you if it's a business and you you've got a longer term view with it and you understand that and and and brian just to your point we were In very significant six-figure debt and we were drowning. Wow, and I
00:29:02
Speaker
But we made a commitment. Um, I frankly put it on a credit card that I didn't fully disclose to my wife right off the bat that I've done this because we You know the the it was less than let much less than a thousand dollars, but still it was money we just did not have and um, I
00:29:22
Speaker
We made the commitment. I went to every training because I was at least smart enough to know that I didn't know anything about what I was doing. So I went to every training and you had to pay for that and there was travel costs, engage with that and that sort of thing. Um, and we came to a point about six months into it where I remember my, my, my dear wife who was managing sort of our household income
00:29:46
Speaker
said, sweetheart, you got to stop spending money on this until we start making money. And it was this moment of like,
00:29:53
Speaker
Listen, we got to trust this process. We have to trust what's happening here and keep at it. And that just a few months after that, things really, really began to turn around. And, and that's any business is that way. You got to be right at the break. You're at the branch and you're all in. There's moments along the way where you are all in and you go like, I have no plan B on this. This is it. Plan B is also a thing.
00:30:20
Speaker
Plan B is plan A, man. And that's what we did. And so it just, and it's been an enormous blessing for us and it's residual income. And that's what I'm, that's what I'm after. Yeah. Many of these companies will pay you legitimately every week if you're doing the work, you know, to generate that type of money. The cashflow is very consistent once you get it off the ground.
00:30:40
Speaker
That's right. That's right. And the residual piece of it is very consistent also, which, you know, in a lot of sales positions, and I love, you know, I enjoy, I love the concept of sales, but a lot of sales positions are only as good as your last sale that you're commissioned on that sale. That's it. It's over. It's done.
00:30:55
Speaker
And that work marketing is not that way. Yeah, it's actually the opposite. And Philip and I both know several, I would call them professional salespeople. They're working for a company though. They don't own anything. And they go out and they kill it every day and they sell and they make hundreds of thousands of dollars. And as they build that up, the companies are actually taking away their residual. They hit higher and higher and higher first year benchmarks.
00:31:24
Speaker
and they're taking away the trail for their profit. That's right. In network marketing, it's actually the reverse. You're getting very little upfront. That's right. And as it builds over time and you build that success, you're getting paid more for your expertise. That's right. I want to spin this back to the sacred side because I think this is to me why network marketing is so compelling from a biblical standpoint.
00:31:48
Speaker
And tell me if I'm off base on this, please. Yes, tell him if he's off base. Let's get a counselor in on this. But when you look at the path of Jesus, I mean, the guy's out walking around. He's obviously led by the Holy Spirit, but he's talking to people. He's belly to belly with people, healing people, moving around.
00:32:15
Speaker
And he's leading people, right? And I think the reason you've had so much success is because you had several decades of leading people and sitting belly to belly and entering into the junk. And I think to Philip's point, like so many people do do this wrong. And I think a small subset, it is the money, the success, the fame. But I think most of it's just the inexperience and not only leading people, but leading themselves.
00:32:40
Speaker
And so when you look at it from more of a sacred standpoint, we're called to be in people's life and have intentional relationship. You just mentioned that with your friends covenant friendships. I think network marketing is the business model that puts you in that seat more than any other business because it's ugly and Phillips says this all the time, it's, it's ugly because it's really all people and we're broken and we're sinful and we're inexperienced as we develop.
00:33:09
Speaker
And so do you have any thoughts kind of on that of just like the business model in relation to just getting belly to belly with people and entering into life with them through this avenue?
Network Marketing and Faith
00:33:18
Speaker
So many thoughts on this. Um, but I'll, I'll, I'll link two thoughts to it initially. One is, um, uh, Rabbi Lappan has done a book called thou shalt prosper, which talks about this sort of the, the wisdom principles of the world and how that is connected with,
00:33:36
Speaker
Financial prosperity and and that sort of thing and one of the things he says in there is that that prosperity and success and business is Embedded into people I mean business business isn't created in a vacuum you it's it's people and it's providing a service and he talks about
00:33:55
Speaker
You know even you know in in in certain cultures that the the construct is even if you're working for someone your your own brand your your own entrepreneur and you're bringing value to that to your brand. Which leads into the second piece of it brian and that is part of what i think is it makes.
00:34:15
Speaker
network marketers successful and provides a platform for success is that you really do believe in the value you bring into someone's life. It is not about me. I don't have an issue talking with anyone about what I'm passionate about.
00:34:32
Speaker
In my with the product that i that i promote in network marketing because it brings value to the lives i say yes i say no it's fine doesn't matter yeah but i that that is at the heart that is the heart of this which. Ultimately places me in a position of saying that i care for people in and that when you when you talk about. Sort of the role of network marketing is sort of the secular sacred.
00:35:00
Speaker
There's nothing different about the moment that I had as an 18-year-old when I said, man, I really kind of want to give myself to faith-based work because I really care for people, and I want them to experience what I have.
00:35:18
Speaker
that it's no different. If I had something of value that I think can be of value to someone's life on the product side or on the opportunity side, then how would you not share that? Guys, if we came up with, I just heard this the other day as someone was talking about Reverend Billy Graham and the legacy that he left and why he was so passionate and he just never got a focus of this single clear message that he believed he was on the earth to deliver.
00:35:48
Speaker
The issue that they said was, if I had a cure for cancer, who wouldn't I share that with? How could I get into a mindset any different than
00:36:02
Speaker
And I just got to tell whoever, it doesn't matter. And I may not even know people, but I want, who knows what's in their life. So the same thing, the same thing with what we're talking about here. If it's, if, if I really care for people and I have something of value to bring to that equation and that's that how, how much more sacred can it be?
00:36:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good point. You know, it's funny, it goes back to, I'm a huge fan. I don't know fan, but I like to watch Penn and Teller, you know, the guy that talks, I think it's Penn, maybe it's Teller, I don't know. But the guy who's like very articulate, so smart, he's a huge, well-known atheist.
00:36:41
Speaker
He said exactly what you just said and he's like, I'm okay with people and Christians who believe in Jesus to come up to me and tell them about Jesus. In fact, if you're a Christian and you don't do that and you really believe in what you're talking about and you don't do that,
00:36:57
Speaker
Your hypocrite in my in my book now, I might not believe it But you have to be passionate enough to at least bring it up because that in your eyes is gonna save my life So it's a very articulate way. He says it way better than I do But let me move back because I just want to mention someone so special to your life and
00:37:17
Speaker
Marilyn, your wife, she is amazing. And the way that she's stuck by you and supported you through this, I just wanted to shout out. I felt like we kind of kept glazing over her and I kept wanting to get my shot in. Like, Marilyn is amazing. So we should probably have her on the show, too. Yeah. Oh, listen, man, if you want to, like, blow your podcast up, you need to have her on the show.
00:37:39
Speaker
I am so stinking regular about all this, but we just celebrated 40 years of marriage and she is the wind in my sails. I say that not in a perfunctory way. It's the real deal that she has given herself to
00:37:58
Speaker
service of really, in some ways, the calling that I that I've had. She's the hub of our family, too. We've got we've got three kids here. They're all married in the Des Moines area. We have 12 grandchildren here. And she holds that clan together. And it's amazing. She's amazing. I always tell my wife and I tell other people that if my wife is with me, I can be against the world like I can tackle the world. Now, if my wife's against me, it doesn't matter if the whole world's on my side. I'm upside down.
00:38:28
Speaker
You know, it's like you have that same relationship so the same way and when she came up that day from the basement after doing sort of our personal finances and says, hey, man, you got to either start making money with this this thing or you got to stop. That was one of those moments like, come on, baby, you got to be with me. Yes. That dog needs to hunt real quick. That's great. You're not kidding. So let's if we can just stay on maybe the vein, we'll pivot a little bit because we do know your children.
00:38:56
Speaker
And again, Philip touched on it before, kind of as we're getting going, God is just working through your family. And, you know, the term that I apply to is generational faithfulness, where you have your kids, grandkids, you know,
00:39:10
Speaker
Not only from a character standpoint, but from a spiritual standpoint, they're walking with the Lord over several generations. And your family has been one that I've been exposed to that embodies that. And obviously, that's to God's glory as well. But can you just talk about maybe some of the things you and Marilyn have done that's encouraged that or that you would attribute to that and just speak to that for our listeners?
00:39:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, our first of all, I want to make sure that we know that our kids married good, good people, too. And they have then there's families on the on that side also that have built into the lives of.
00:39:49
Speaker
of our kids and their spouses. And so I don't want to leave that out either. But the idea of a compelling vision for the future is bigger than just mom and dad, bigger than Papa and Gaga, which grandkids call us. It had to do with I wanted to be
00:40:15
Speaker
There's a term in the Bible that's—it's a term that's
00:40:21
Speaker
The translation of the Greek, original Greek, is authentic or real. And the etymology of that term is without wax. In other words, that they used to make these pottery, and they would sometimes, if they cracked, they'd put wax in it. And they couldn't see that it had been waxed, but it was damaged. Yeah, it was cracked.
00:40:47
Speaker
And this idea of authentic is without wax. And we wanted to be the same in the church and in our business as we were in our home. And we wanted that to be really authentic.
00:41:00
Speaker
And so we just lived, I think in a way that we were not perfect. We were out there with our faults. I've had things that I've really needed to confess that I feel like we're generational things that we brought into the family that we've confessed and we've worked on overcoming those things and canceling out the generational element of that so that they could become better. And then taken seriously this,
00:41:26
Speaker
this sort of generational mentoring that is very much a part of other cultures.
Legacy and Future Generations
00:41:35
Speaker
where the older, sort of wiser, been around longer generation is honored in a way that they're listened to. And we don't think that we are owed that, but we do believe that there's a role of passing on wisdom to the second and third generation and passing on
00:41:58
Speaker
belief and passing on heritage. So we've taken that pretty seriously in things that we've done. We do some things as a family. We're talking about a family foundation now in ways how we give and how we support those kinds of things. And so I think that's, and just God's grace, man. I mean, we're really, really imperfect people.
00:42:21
Speaker
But God's grace, man. Just as a personal testimony to you, you came and left California, and you didn't come alone. You went with the family, your whole family, and then you gained one. Michael Sanchez, everyone. Welcome to the family. Yeah, exactly. Kind of to your point, the person that you were mentoring at your church ended up coming to Iowa
00:42:47
Speaker
caveat, he did marry your daughter. But I do think that's a personal testimony of what you're talking about is how you have groomed and discipled basically Michael and Michael now is in throws of your family and so intertwined with this belief of focusing on the next generation and the generation after that. So that's a cool testimony I think just for our listeners that kind of happened between the California, we know this because we're close friends with you guys.
00:43:15
Speaker
Okay, it's crazy. Yeah, it's good. It's good. Okay, let's talk about I'm gonna Brian ask a Philip question I'm gonna ask a Brian question so it could be get a little awkward But let's talk about how you tie in all these residual incomes because what right now you've talked about your real estate Portfolio your network marketing
00:43:32
Speaker
You have investments, just stocks, bonds, those kind of things. And we know that you have a life insurance policy. So I would like even you to talk through how those are all intertwined and Brian could even talk through that stuff too. Is there any other one I missed on residual income they have? Not that I know of, good. Yeah, like I said, we have a goal at the pathway that I've taken.
00:44:02
Speaker
with some of the faith-based work and that sort of thing. There's no, there's no pension to that. There's no, you know, there's no, there's no, you know, golden umbrella or parachute or whatever they call those things. I know that's going to happen. And I have no particular faith in social security. There's a little bit of that. So, so we've just, we've just said, Hey, we have to take seriously and really got started late, you guys really late. And this is where, um,
00:44:32
Speaker
I mean, you guys know the story, but I can tell your listeners that when the two of you sat down with my wife and I, I mean, my wife started, got very emotional about it because it was like, wait a minute, we have a chance to still pull this together.
00:44:51
Speaker
It was it was really it was really cathartic, you know in some ways and so for me Philip to answer your question all these things fit the things that I'm giving myself to Timewise that are income generation have got some residual passive income component to it and and that's
00:45:12
Speaker
That's just super important to me. The issue of the most important commodity to me right now is time. It's not money, but most transactional relationships around money are
00:45:29
Speaker
about time and you exchange time for money. You can increase that with skill level and that sort of thing, but there's a finite amount of that. You've only got so much time and you're going to reach a point where this is what I exchange for money. The only way to fix that is some multiplier and the multiplier is passive income. I'm a student of Robert Kiyosaki.
00:45:53
Speaker
I, he, you know, if you're familiar with that, the right side of the cashflow quadrant, big business, which is, you know, passive income or investments, passive residual income, that's where the wealth is. That's where, that's where you want to get to. And so that's what we're doing. Everything that we're pointing toward, you guys have given us a strategy that we didn't know was available to us. That's in the,
00:46:18
Speaker
infinite banking world and that has been very encouraging to all of my family and as you guys know, so that's how all those things tie together. They are means to an end and the end is that we can continue to build a legacy around our family, we can continue to bring value to people's lives, we can continue to be about the thing that we believe they're put on this earth to accomplish which is very much tied in with our faith.
00:46:45
Speaker
You know, we're running out of time, but I want quickly. I know, I know. I feel like this is every time. It might be a good podcast when we just want to ask more. I would love to hear your thoughts on retirement.
00:46:57
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think retirement is really an evil concept. So do you want to know more? That's what we want to know. The reason is this, the idea that you at a certain age,
00:47:16
Speaker
transition into something else that you're doing, that's okay, that's a great idea. But the concept of retirement, as you guys know, I pastor a large church. There were a lot of people in that church that were in the Silicon Valley to get their money. It was dot com mania, it was. And so they were there to get their money, and it was like, once I retire,
00:47:43
Speaker
it's going to be different. I'm going to play golf or, you know, or I'm going to get my RV and travel. No, nothing's wrong with those things. It's just, those are just not life compelling. They're, they're not sustainable long-term. The things that are sustainable long-term are purpose and calling that's way bigger than ourselves. And, and so I just, so I look at that, the concept of retirement,
00:48:11
Speaker
has contained within us this idea that I don't have to do this anymore because I could just do what I want. Well, that's great. As long as what you want, or as you said, your why is a compelling big why that keeps you in the game. So I, the, the retirement idea and the way that this was set up in the industrial, you know, when the industrial, the industrial age happened and the retirement pension, um, it can be used for something really, really powerful or it can,
00:48:41
Speaker
Guys can die on the back. They retire, they have no purpose. That's where the statistics come in seven years after you retire, you die. Yeah, it's really, that's why I say it's evil. The concept itself is evil and we have to rethink that entirely and obliterate the idea of that. Sure. Love it.
00:49:00
Speaker
I want to go back to two things because they tie into points we're trying to make. I think that you made a great point about leveraging your time and then leveraging, you know, in a traditional business, you're leveraging people. You know, if you're self-employed, you don't really have as many employees, like you're doing all the work. You're not leveraging other people's time. And that's one of the major powers of network marketing is you're leveraging other people's time.
00:49:27
Speaker
Yes, so and then the other thing I want to say just because I think you have such a great You know part of this or piece of this is part of your overall vision is and we talked to people about this The the US tax code is set up for business owners and running a network marketing business the way you do You can take advantage of the tax code not in an illegal way or an unethical way but a moral legal and ethical way to deduct expenses in your life and in in
00:49:56
Speaker
in your, you know, sixties, you seem to be going stronger and like you're, you're charging at, I don't even want to put the finish line out there, but you're just charging in the race probably harder than you ever have. And so it wanted to just see if you could touch on those two points of just continuing.
00:50:14
Speaker
you know, this in your 60s and what that's looked like to other people in their 50s and 60s to get, because I think a lot of people have that corporate experience or you had it more on the church side, but you get this, you get this experience in corporate America, whatever, and you're winning and then you get out of that and you're, I think people still have a taste for that. And I think there's just a lot of different advantages that network marketing could bring to people like that.
00:50:39
Speaker
That's so true. I want to create a context around this term that you use leveraging people, leveraging the time of other people. Zig Ziglar talks about this concept and frankly was embedded to me with my mentor in Dallas.
00:50:55
Speaker
where if you help people, if you really help other people get what they want to get to a place that they want to, you don't have to worry about where you're at. And that's the leverage that I'm talking about. You don't want to leverage it like network marketers leverage people. Yeah, exactly. The whole concept of the leveraging people, if it's
00:51:17
Speaker
It can feel very self serving if that's what that's what so you know and for some reason we don't for some reason we don't attach it similarly to other. To other sort of ideas in other words if i'm a broker of a real estate agency i've got i've got sales agents in my in my firm i'm leveraging their time.
00:51:37
Speaker
but somehow that's more responsible than network marketing? No, it's the same exact thing. The reality is you're providing a value and a service and you're helping people get what they want and you really, really, truly want them to be successful. That being said, if you've got a large goal out there, if you've got something that's worth giving your life to,
00:52:04
Speaker
Um, whether it's a legacy that you want to, and you guys know, we have some, we have some financial goals in our family, the larger family about some real estate things and that sort of thing. And those are big, those are great things. Those are, those are legacy generational kinds of things. Well, what it does, it just, you just go harder at it. I feel really, really energized by it. That's your first.
00:52:27
Speaker
Focus there's i'm energized there's there's reversal and you have to be resilient and you have to be emotionally resilient and you cuz you know the same issues are there but that there's focus around accomplishing those things and then
00:52:42
Speaker
The beauty again of network marketing, not only the low barrier of entry, but you're right, you're in business for yourself. And so much of the tax laws and so much of the tax code is written for business owners. And my accountant that I have, we don't run it close to the edge, but we don't leave anything on the table. And so that's really, really a powerful tool.
00:53:09
Speaker
also within this whole financial planning world.
00:53:13
Speaker
You know, I feel like this is the time of the show where we ask you to give our listeners some advice, but I feel like you should just rewind it from the first minute of this whole podcast and go through it again. Get out of here. It's a whole, it's a great episode. So I just want to just, I missed one of the seven sources of residual income and that was business. So you have five of the seven that we would say. And so it's been great to talk to you. How would people get ahold of you if they liked what you, what they heard and just want to reach out to you?
00:53:42
Speaker
So, I've got a LinkedIn, connect through LinkedIn, Facebook. There's a website, Eden and Gray. I actually don't know. We just changed the website. EdenandGray.com. That's a business website that we have.
00:54:02
Speaker
They can get in contact with me through you guys. And I love sitting down with, I'm really passionate about sitting out with younger guys at this point too. I love to see younger guys sort of recapture a little bit of what it is to be a guy in this culture that has kind of muddy the waters a little bit on that.
00:54:29
Speaker
So anyway, yeah, so the people can contact me in those ways. Awesome. Great. Well, wow. This has been an amazing hour. Thank you for your time. It was only supposed to go 40 minutes, which never happens.
00:54:44
Speaker
And so if you liked what you heard, this has been the Uncommon Life Project, and I've been your host, Phillip, and this is Brian. Please remember to like us and subscribe to us, give us a good rating, and we will come back with another interview and possibly another dual cast. So thanks for listening. Thanks for listening, everybody. Thank you, Doug. It's been an honor to be with you guys. Thanks.
00:55:06
Speaker
That's all for this episode of The Uncommon Life Project, brought to you by Uncommon Wealth Partners. Be sure to visit uncommonwealth.com to learn more about our services. Don't miss an episode as we introduce you to inspiring people who are actively pursuing an uncommon life.