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The Stoic View on Voluntary Suffering (Episode 37)
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Want to become more Stoic? Join us and other Stoics this October: Stoicism Applied by Caleb Ontiveros and Michael Tremblay on Maven
Are you even Stoic if you don't take ice-baths, fast, or regularly underdress?
Michael and I discuss why the Stoics argued for voluntary suffering – but also what they said about how it should be practiced. We then debate whether one should show off and share how we practice voluntary suffering in our own lives.
(03:18) What is Voluntary Suffering?
(07:31) Why You Should Train Your Body
(19:51) Stoic Warnings
(38:59) Summarizing
(41:31) How We Practice Voluntary Suffering
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Transcript
Introduction to Stoic Practices
00:00:00
Speaker
I think the stoic should bring back the cringe. If you find it motivating to post your progress pictures or to, you know, post your, your daily ice bath or, you know, these kind of tasks you've undertaken to, if you find that motivating, there is one sense in which, you know, it is quite stoic to say, I don't care that other people think this is lame. This is holding me to account. This is beneficial.
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome to Stoic Conversations. In this podcast, Michael Trombley and I discuss the theory and practice of stoicism. Each week, we'll share two conversations. One between the two of us, and another will be an in-depth conversation with an expert.
Voluntary Suffering: Benefits and Cautions
00:00:44
Speaker
Can you say that you're a stoic, unless you regularly take ice baths, fast, under dress? Well, that's what Michael and I talk about today.
00:00:55
Speaker
We discuss why the ancient Stoics argued for voluntary suffering, but also why they gave several warnings about it. We debate whether one should show off, and we share how we practice voluntary suffering in our own lives. As always, reach out to us if you ever have any feedback, and share the podcast with a friend if you find it useful. Here is our conversation.
00:01:26
Speaker
And today we're going to be talking about voluntary suffering. Do you want to set the stage, Michael? Yeah, so voluntary suffering brings to mind the ice baths, cold showers, difficult physical things that people do, and that relationship that that has with stoicism. The stoic's view on that, on if that's actually something that's good for becoming better people,
00:01:51
Speaker
and some of our views, but I think what we'll find, I've done some research for this episode, is that the Stoics actually have a pretty nuanced position on this. And voluntary suffering is something that's become recently quite popular, and so it's interesting to see what the ancients have to say on this. In terms of the structure of the episode, we'll be talking about what is voluntary suffering and why it's an interesting thing to talk about in terms of self-improvement.
00:02:17
Speaker
Talk about some of the Stoics arguments in favor of voluntary suffering. So what the ancient Stoics have to say though, you know, why you might want to consider that cold shower in the morning or, you know, sleeping on the floor. What the Stoics have to say, or some examples of voluntary suffering that the Stoics actually endorsed or actually encouraged. And then what the Stoics had to say against voluntary suffering and some of the warnings they had about this kind of behavior or this focus, this focused approach to self-improvement.
Physical Training and Regulation of Desire
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah, I would say voluntary discomfort, voluntary suffering. Sometimes it's called voluntary discomfort, what have you. There's a long tradition of seeing the Stoics as in favor of this, whether it's sleeping on the floor, taking cold showers, or fasting. There are several different examples, both from Stoic models and Stoic writings of people doing
00:03:09
Speaker
this sort of thing. We talked about this a little bit in the Missonius Rufus episode a while back and we'll talk about it some more.
00:03:20
Speaker
So jumping into it, first thing is what is voluntary suffering? I guess voluntary discomfort would just be less intense voluntary suffering. It would be the gentler form of voluntary suffering. Same thing, but my definition here is that it's when we choose to do difficult things related to the body, typically related to the body, I wouldn't consider studying
00:03:40
Speaker
intensely to be voluntary suffering in the same sense. We're talking about the body's relationship to self-improvement, so difficult things of the body for the purpose of self-improvement. Some examples, as you already noted, fasting, so abstaining from food and drink for long periods of time, ice baths or showers, difficult exercise or physical challenges, and abstaining from things you enjoy. Notably, I would say what these have in common is that they don't have long-term physical side effects,
00:04:08
Speaker
So this is not something that's dangerous. It is something that is repeatable because of that and ultimately not harmful. The harm is just the confrontation of an unpleasant experience, right? If I step into a cold shower, the rest of my day is going to be the exact same. It's going to be fine. If you believe some people, you know, I think there's some science, the rest of my day might actually be improved. There might actually be physical benefits to it. There's no real long-term hardship. I'm just confronting what's difficult for my body.
00:04:37
Speaker
And I think this is an interesting question for three main reasons. First, as a potential tool for self-improvement, we want to know if voluntary suffering works or not, or if the Stoics think it works or not. And we
Understanding Values Through Suffering
00:04:50
Speaker
also want to know if the Stoics think it's harmful. As you said, it's really been associated. People really assume the Stoics are pro this. We want to know if the Stoics think it's harmful.
00:04:58
Speaker
The second reason it's worth talking about is that many people, as I say, many people are doing this or actively using this, doing these practices as part of stoicism. So we want to be cautious to not kind of replace other things or be misdirected if this is not actually the right way to focus our stoic practice. And third,
00:05:20
Speaker
It can tell us interesting things about what the Stoics think about training in general and the relationship between virtue and the body. As an athlete, I've always been really interested in this question about what role does the body have to play in becoming a better person? What role does physical exercise, physical training have to play in becoming a better person? And, you know, voluntary suffering is one of, is
00:05:41
Speaker
directly insert the self into that debate and that question. If voluntary suffering is good or for becoming better, then that it says, look, we can use our body as a tool. We can use physical training, physical confrontation as a tool to improve our character. So jumping into the Stoics reasons for being pro voluntary suffering or what the Stoics have to say on these types of exercises.
00:06:07
Speaker
I guess one thing I want to know before jumping into this also is that there is a type of asceticism. So this this idea of, you know, not only is physical suffering good for self improvement, but physical suffering things like, you know, whipping yourself or these kind of extreme physical acts. I know there's, you know, somebody in
00:06:26
Speaker
I've seen this before, somebody in India who's kept their arm up for 50 years and it's been kind of preserved in that position now, it can't come down. On that far end of the spectrum, those people believe not only is physical suffering good for your progress, it's kind of necessary for your progress.
00:06:43
Speaker
And then on the other end of the spectrum, you might have this kind of view where it's like, well, we just need to read books. We just need to think about stoicism more. And we're trying to figure out where the stoics kind of fall on that spectrum and where kind of which side they fall on. Sorry, what's the spectrum? The spectrum is how much suffering is required to be virtuous. Is that right? Or is it slightly different?
00:07:05
Speaker
It's yeah, how much suffering is required to be virtuous? I guess there's two things there. There's kind of the, is it necessary to be virtuous? Is it, is it a necessary condition? And then the other question would be, you know, if it's not necessary, you know, how beneficial is it, or is it really just a distraction? It is really just, uh, you know, at its worst, actively harmful. Right. Right.
00:07:31
Speaker
And so jumping into what the Stoics have to say about voluntary suffering, when I go through it, and I was reading up on this, there's actually a number of passages which show that the Stoics are pro-voluntary suffering, or are pro-enduring difficult things.
00:07:50
Speaker
For
Balance in Stoic Practices: Moderation and Humility
00:07:51
Speaker
one specific reason is the one that I found, or one main reason. And the first reason is that it teaches us about what should be valued and what should be avoided. So when we look at Epictetus's writing, Epictetus writes about the discipline of desire. And that main discipline is that main, that's the first stage of becoming a better Stoic.
00:08:10
Speaker
And it's the idea of regulating what you think is good and what you think is bad only to the appropriate things. So the only thing you should think is good is becoming a better person. The only thing you should think is bad is bad action. And it's most extreme that the corollary to that is the only thing you should desire is virtue, becoming a good person, acting well. And the only thing you should be fearful of.
00:08:33
Speaker
The only thing you should be afraid of or averse to is acting poorly. That's that first discipline. And when I go through the stoics, you really see this identification that, hey, physical training is really helpful in this first discipline. So one quote I have from Epictetus here is that, quote, all practices that are applied to the body by those who are giving it exercise may also be useful here if they're directed in some way towards desire and aversion.
00:08:58
Speaker
And this is really, I've read the discourses multiple times. This is really where you get Epictetus's, I think his stance on training the body, which is to say, look, training the body can be helpful if you train the body for the purpose of regulating your desire and regulating your aversion. And what is meant by that, I'll go into some more detail, but what is meant by that is this idea that
00:09:22
Speaker
And this I think is the reason why many people do voluntary suffering or cold showers. You'd say, look, I'm afraid of being really cold or I'm averse to being really cold.
00:09:32
Speaker
But there's this stomach truth, which is that it's not actually harmful. Maybe it's a disperferred indifferent, but it's not, it's not totally harmful. This kind of pain is something that you can encounter if you approach it properly. You know, Epictetus also talks about this, about, you know, if pain was, was always harmful, athletes would not want to exercise, but athletes want to exercise. They contextualize pain as being good because they recognize it's making them better.
00:09:55
Speaker
So there's this idea that I can train my aversion to not be afraid of things I was afraid of, not be afraid of things that I'm naturally averse to in some regard, like physical suffering. I can train that, I can master that, and I can control that if I do that intentionally. And that's really the first, I think the first key piece of why the Stokes were pro voluntary suffering.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say Seneca has another example of this where his letter on festivals and fasting, this letter 18, he says, set aside a certain number of days during which you shall be content with the scantiest and cheapest fare with coarse and rough dress, saying to yourself the while, is this the condition that I feared?
00:10:38
Speaker
So that's the idea that naturally people would fear looking silly. They would find fasting uncomfortable. They would find it bad. And one way to overcome those false judgments is to expose yourself to them. I see that as the same kind of reasoning that your read of Epictetus has. Yeah, that's exactly right. So like what Seneca is saying there is
00:11:02
Speaker
Go and live in some uncomfortable way. Eat very little food and be like, this is the thing that I spent my entire life being afraid of. I got this difficult job. I am doing all this work so that I can have this wealth so that I can avoid this situation. As you said, people kind of looking at you thinking you're looking strange. But then once you live it, you go, this is not as bad as I thought it would be. Not only is it not, and so there's a kind of knowledge gained there.
00:11:30
Speaker
And really that's what it is. It's kind of knowledge about the kinds of things that are actually harmful or if they're as bad as you think they would be. Yesenica says another thing about how we suffer more in imagination than in reality. And so the idea is like sometimes we can think physical pain is worse than it is. I know I feel that way when I go to get a needle, for example, or I'm going to the dentist.
00:11:50
Speaker
I always like hype it up. And then in the moment it happens and oh, that was just a little prick on my arm. You know, not to downplay people that are afraid of those kinds of things, but there's this kind of the reality of the situation of being confronted with the reality of the situation can actually be really empowering because it can be like, this is not as bad as I thought it was. And to formulate my life in avoidance of these things would actually be a mistake because they're not that bad.
00:12:15
Speaker
And that's the, that's the aversion part. That's the don't fear things that shouldn't be feared. And then there's this kind of second part about desire, about moderating your desires, getting your desires in under control. And so a quote here from Epictetus, he says, you should practice at one time to live like one who is ill, so as to be able one day to live like one who is healthy. And this is the healthy, there is a metaphor for, you know, being, being virtuous.
00:12:42
Speaker
Take no food, drink water alone, abstain from every desire at one time, so as to be able one day to exercise your desires in a reasonable way. And so this is a kind of voluntary suffering. I don't know if it would be fasting in kind of the extreme sense, but it would certainly be a kind of minimalism, a kind of, I'm going to not, I'm going to not indulge in the pleasures that I like.
00:13:04
Speaker
And what that is going to teach me again is that, you know, these things weren't really, weren't really necessary for me to have a good life. It's not so bad without them. And then that's going to kind of reframe your desire, right? If you don't, if you don't fear minimalistic conditions, if you don't fear not having much, well, then you won't desire having a lot in the same way.
00:13:29
Speaker
So that's the kind of modulation of aversion and desire that can come from these kinds of practices. Right, right, absolutely. Another good quote here, because again, I think it's important when we're saying what the Stoics think to actually show what the Stoics said here, not just to have our commentary. Missonius Rufus talks about the value of training our body and our soul, right? So not just learning stoicism, but actually training our body.
00:13:57
Speaker
because he says, we will train both body and soul when we accustom ourselves to cold, heat, thirst, hunger, scarcity of food, hardness of bed, abstaining from pleasures, and enduring pains. Through these methods and others like them, the body is strengthened, and the soul is strengthened as it is trained for courage by enduring hardships and trained for self-control by abstaining from pleasures. So really, I was talking about that pleasure in aversion and desire part, and Massanis Rufus does a really good job of framing this here.
00:14:26
Speaker
courage to face what you fear and self-control, moderation, temperance to not fall into these desires. That's what you gain when you train your body. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. I think later on in the letter 18 I quoted from Seneca, he mentions that as an analogy, what a soldier will do is appear themselves for war during times of peace. And essentially you want to be
00:14:55
Speaker
doing that when you are living the life of ease or comfort relative and there's the motivation of training desire that we're talking about that's one argument for doing this another argument is sort of the preparation type argument so that like the soldier when war comes you're prepared if you need to take a meeting and skip lunch then you might perform better had you fasted practice fasten before that yeah i agree i mean i have a quote here
00:15:23
Speaker
from Seneca, which might be the one you're referencing, which was the other point I was going to bring up, where Seneca says, one who's serious about philosophy as a way of life should choose settings that are conducive to sobriety and clean living. Too much comfort makes the spirit unmanly, and even more location undoubtedly has some power to ruins one's soul.
00:15:42
Speaker
The soldier who has been posted in steep places becomes ever stronger. The urbanite is a lazy fellow. Hands that go directly from the plow handle to the sword hilt can handle any kind of work, while those that gleam from manicure and massage give up the minute they have to get dirty.
00:15:58
Speaker
So I think that's, I think that's the same, if that's not the exact quote, that's the same kind of idea from Seneca. Yeah. So there's this idea of preparedness. I think that's compelling as well. I think ultimately it kind of comes down, it's kind of a sub point to the previous one. Look, there's courage and there's self-control. You get certain courage and self-control from training these things. But the issue is that when you live a very comfortable life, you don't notice when your courage and self-control start to fall apart. When your courage and self-control weaken.
00:16:28
Speaker
And so when you try to go from the plow handle to the sword hilt, it's not going to happen. You know, whatever that, whatever modern metaphor you want for that. And it doesn't have to be so dramatic. You don't have to be a soldier, but the idea is that like, there's kind of chance, there's kind of luck. No matter how good things are going now, you know, people, people that you care about will get sick. You might have problem at work. You're going to find some sort of conflict. Bad things are going to happen.
00:16:55
Speaker
And, you know, what we can do is we can prepare for them mentally, but we also want to be the kind of people that can handle them well. So we don't just want them to be expected, but we also want to be strong enough to handle them well. And that's what this kind of intentional hardship, personal suffering provides is it, it, it puts us ideally, if it's done well, it puts us in a position to be used to confronting difficult things and be used to going without things we might, we might've thought were nice to have.
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think the primary motivation for voluntary suffering is that it brings about knowledge. It's a way to really come to the judgment about what is good or bad. This other line about preparation is important, but it's not limited to voluntary suffering because it's
00:17:46
Speaker
sort of stressing the general view that it's important to be prepared for adversity, for whatever comes your way. And voluntary suffering is an excellent way to prepare yourself for something that might go awry. But,
Physical Achievements versus Mental Development
00:17:59
Speaker
you know, depending on where you're at, maybe your time would be better spent learning a new skill or doing something that's not so much related to suffering.
00:18:06
Speaker
I think that's a great point, which is that we want to be prepared for what's to come, but there's plenty of ways to prepare for what's to come. I don't understand you correctly, Caleb. And it's not like, you know, if I take a bunch of ice baths, I'll be ready for no matter what happens. There has to be some nuance there. Part of being ready for what happens is means, you know, yeah, you're okay to confront physical discomfort. You're okay to do things you don't want to do, but there's other ways to be prepared too. As you said, a different skill, you know, there's different types of preparation that's solely the physical one.
00:18:36
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So that I think is, and then the other point you raised there, which I think is a really important point is that.
00:18:46
Speaker
So I think it's safe to say that the Stoics did endorse voluntary suffering in some capacity. And so people who both use that in their own practice and are positive about it, I don't think they're wrong. So I think that's something that the Stoics clearly did say, yes, this is valuable. This is a good thing to do. But it's that knowledge point which we really have to always keep in mind. We have to always keep in mind that virtue for the Stoics is a knowledge. It's an understanding about what should be avoided and what should be pursued.
00:19:16
Speaker
And so all voluntary suffering does or its main moral value is it reminds you, reminds you, hey, this pain is not as bad as I think it is. I am the kind of person that can endure pain and still have a good life.
00:19:28
Speaker
Or, Hey, these things that I are not as these things that I desire are not as necessary as I thought that where I can go without them and still be okay. And so it's this kind of knowledge that you gain through practice, through experience, not in any sort of, again, not, not training in any sort of way that teaching yourself about the way the world is and teaching yourself about your capacity to handle the world.
00:19:51
Speaker
Moving on, I want to now contrast this with what the Stoics have to say against voluntary suffering, and they're kind of cautioned about it. So it's not just pro endorsements all the way down. It's not just a hundred percent thumbs up. They have some things to say against it, and they have some words of caution, especially for people like us who are progressing, who are working on our Stoic practice. So the first is that Seneca warns that a focus on the body can be a distraction from the mind.
00:20:19
Speaker
So he says quote in, in letter 15 of his letters on ethics, there are ways of exercising that are easy and quick. They give the body a workout without taking up too much time. Choose whichever you like and make it easy by practice. But whatever you do, return quickly from the body to the mind and exercise that exercise the mind night and day. So the point here is that look, you know,
00:20:44
Speaker
I know he's just talking about physical exercise here, but he's talking about the tendency or the fear of us to think about self-improvement as a physical process, as an embodied kind of a physical training process, a rocky montage. Saying, look, you got to be in good shape. You got to be fit. But figure out as little time as possible that it takes to do that effectively and just do that. And don't let it take up any more time than
00:21:11
Speaker
the then away from your stoic practice. And no, I don't think, I don't think like, you know, there's nothing wrong if you're a serious hobbyist or you seriously pursue this, but the point in plain language is, you know, if you become a bodybuilder and you think, wow, look at how great of a person I am because I'm a, because I spend six hours a day, eight hours a day working on my diet and my body, the stoic is going to say, look, that's not, you're missing the point here. You're missing, you're missing what it really means to develop yourself.
00:21:36
Speaker
And Epictetus says something similar, and this is in Caridian 41. He says, it's a sign of a lack of natural aptitude for stoicism to spend much time on things relating to the body by taking a large amount of exercise, for instance, and eating too much. No, these things should be done in passing and you should devote undivided attention to your mind.
00:21:57
Speaker
So again, same kind of thing. Don't be a, don't be a jock, I guess is the idea, or don't really, don't confuse yourself. I think that physical improvement means, means necessarily moral improvement.
00:22:10
Speaker
Yep. I think there's a line I mentioned a while back, which is a Spartan lost a wrestling match. And someone says to that Spartan, your opponent proved himself the better man. And the Spartan replies, no, a better wrestler. And that's the line here is that.
00:22:28
Speaker
The goal is to be a better person, not be a better wrestler, better runner, better, faster, whatever it may be. That shouldn't be lost. One shouldn't lose sight of that goal.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, I love that quote. That quote, that quote pumps me up. I think I said the same thing last time, but it gets me, gets me excited. Yeah. That, that constant focus on being a good person and not taking, not taking these things as proxies of being a good person, being a good athlete, you know, as, as a proxy or anything else we, we focus on, uh, you know, having bigger muscles or, you know, booking a certain way because you train or eat a certain way.
00:23:07
Speaker
These are all good things and they can, they can represent self-control courage. They can represent other virtues, but if it's only applied to the body, you know, then you're just, you know, you're just a bad person with a six pack, you know, or as you said, who can, who can fast longer or can, you know, sit in the icy waters the longest.
00:23:30
Speaker
And so that's the first point is like, don't get distracted, don't get a twisted, don't miss, don't misrepresent the priority here. When you start training your body, the other danger, which I think is a real temptation in this area is one of that the Stoics hit on is one of pride.
00:23:49
Speaker
and one of not just confusing what's important, but actually beginning to take pride in the thing that you got confused about, which is say, wow, I'm so impressive because I can do these difficult things. And so the quote here from Epictetus and Caridian 47, he says, when you've become adapted to a simple way of life and bodily matters, again, that minimalism we were talking about,
00:24:14
Speaker
Don't pride yourself on that. And likewise, if you drink nothing but water, don't proclaim at every opportunity that you drink nothing but water. And if at any time you want to train yourself to endure hardship, do it for your own sake and not for others.
00:24:29
Speaker
And so this, I mean, this really resonates with me, right? You, you see, and sometimes we do this, right? Sometimes if we start putting ourselves in challenges, we say, well, I'm going to do, you know, I'm going to do this challenging thing for 30 days. We can post it on social media as a way to hold ourselves accountable.
00:24:46
Speaker
But Epictetus is warning against this and saying like, it becomes really tempting to take pride in your ability to navigate these bodily matters well and to want to proclaim it, to want to show off. And you should do it only ever for your sake and never for the opinions of others. Kind of a, not necessarily an obvious point, but like a clearly a stoic point, but something that I think people are particularly at risk at falling into when they start doing intentionally vocal things.
00:25:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's an interesting case because suppose one of your roles involves, say, being a good athlete and what it is to be a good athlete these days involves being able to play well on the field and so on, but it also involves being someone who other people are entertained by. People enjoy watching the good athlete
00:25:44
Speaker
That means that a lot of people, maybe they have some reason to cultivate some charisma that many other people aren't obligated to because of their job. So given that you're in this role, should that kind of person
00:25:59
Speaker
at least take into account how they're perceived by others and maybe they would take on different challenges and put things on their Instagram, you know, watch me do this impressive technique or watch me go through this routine of suffering just to keep people engaged with what they're up to, keep people involved in this sport. I think that would be a positive case for
00:26:23
Speaker
taking into account how others perceive your suffering given the fact that someone has this
Social Media's Role in Stoic Practices
00:26:28
Speaker
role. Now, that's not going to pertain to everyone, but perhaps there are other cases that are less extreme that might be more relatable.
00:26:39
Speaker
Yeah. And I guess the build on your point, Kilip, there's even this idea that, you know, there could be a moral reason to do this. You might be inspiring other people, or you might be motivating other people when you kind of share this content or show off, you know, look, I stuck to this goal and said, well, if they can do it, I can do it too.
00:26:56
Speaker
And you've got to have this, this benefit. I think like anything else in stoicism, in my opinion, happy for you to disagree. My opinion is like anything else in stoicism, it just depends on why, but why are you doing it? And if you're, if you're posting your 60 day challenge on Instagram, because, you know, you recognize that this content is like beneficial for other people or you recognize that it's part of your job.
00:27:18
Speaker
I don't think there's any reason. I don't think there's any problem with that. The problem is that if you're doing it, if you think that's the goal, the goal is to impress other people. The goal, I mean, it might even be the goal in the context of your job, but then we're not talking about voluntary suffering for self-improvement anymore, right? And if you're doing it for self-improvement, it has to be sufficient to improve yourself. You know, there's the kind of, we all know the stereotype of the kind of person who, you know,
00:27:48
Speaker
goes to the gym and takes pictures of themselves at the gym, and they're only there to take the pictures, right? And it's kind of, there has to be this, there's this ideal of, you know, I'm going to do this thing that's very noteworthy and very impressive, and I'm not going to tell anybody that I did it. And if you're able to do that, not to say you're necessarily doing it wrong if you show off to other people, but you're certainly doing it right if you don't show off to other people. You're certainly doing it for the right reasons, I would say.
00:28:18
Speaker
And another point about this is just that because it's a thing that other people aren't willing to do, that other people find impressive, it's just a particularly vulnerable situation for this kind of pride, right? We can be prideful about everything. We can get our priorities twisted about everything. We're just particularly vulnerable when we're doing the kinds of things that are hard that other people find impressive, because it's just really tempting to be like, look at me, you know? And you need to really do the soul searching about why you're doing it.
00:28:46
Speaker
You know, there's other things, there's other memes like this, like about like, you know, how do you find out who at the party is doing CrossFit? This is like, I think people do this for all different examples. You'd be like, don't worry. Like they'll tell you, there's this, there's this constant meme about people, you know, bragging or showing off about these habits, about their diets, things like this. And everything is just saying here.
00:29:06
Speaker
Just default to not doing that, right? Your counter example of like, you know, it serves some sort of purpose. That's fine, but default to not doing that. I would say. Yeah, that's interesting. I think I don't agree with that. Let's try to hash this out. So I think that.
00:29:24
Speaker
You're right that for many roles, like the athlete type example, the reason you might undergo some trial of what, you know, watch me do 100 pull-ups or watch me sit in this cold tub for 10 minutes, whatever. The reason you might do that becomes a little bit more of a promotional activity or you're expressing particular values. You're saying, watch me do this cool thing. And it's not so much about voluntary suffering anymore than
00:29:52
Speaker
anyone else performing their job is an act of voluntary suffering. So I generally agree with that. And one thing that you sort of bring to mind or one thing that you hammered correctly is that it always matters what's going on internally. And is someone taking the cold shower to come to better views about what is good or are they merely going along with the most recent trend or something of that sort?
00:30:21
Speaker
And a corollary of that is that you can't always, you can't leap to judgment about other people's actions, whether they choose to take a cold shower or not. It's not so much, you know, are you taking a cold shower? No. Yes. Therefore I can come to a judgment. So that's a little bit of an aside, but I think that's always an upshot of stoicism. And it's a good thing to remember that one reason why stoics are not so
00:30:47
Speaker
keen on judging others is that the worth of people's actions depends on why they're making the choices they are. The disagreement comes, I think, when you say that the default should be
00:31:04
Speaker
not to share. So the CrossFit example is interesting. I think I would take the Nietzschean line on these jokes. These jokes like, you know, why does someone, you know, how do you know whether someone goes to CrossFit? They'll tell you. How do you know someone does BJJ? They'll tell you. How do you know they're a vegan? What have you? There's a whole different
00:31:25
Speaker
so many different forms of these kinds of jokes. I think that people say that sort of thing because they resent people who go to CrossFit and people who go to VJJ, people who are vegan as either being physically better, morally better than others. And it's sort of the morality of resentment. You're trying to put yourself above me. Don't do that. I want to put you down and
00:31:50
Speaker
share this joke with other people who also don't like that these people doing this thing that's at least on some lines might make them better. And now we're going to have a meme that pulls down people who do things that are generally related to self-improvement or generally related to being better. So it's not too clear to me that I would set the default
00:32:11
Speaker
on action or not, it's sort of hard to say. So that's where I disagree and that's my general sort of psychologizing of the set at the default to silence is that people just don't like people appearing better than them in any way. And that's because most of us aren't very good and we resent people who are either good or appearing to be good. Yeah, I mean, I find like a belly like
00:32:38
Speaker
In non Nietzschean terms, it's this view that, you know, they're just haters, right? They're just, they're just haters and nobody's going to be a hater unless they're worse than you. So don't listen to the haters and keep posting, keep telling, or, you know, keep bragging or sharing your story. I think I've been involved in the fitness community for a long time, not necessarily the kind of wellness community or the kind of greater voluntary suffering.
00:33:06
Speaker
ideas, but I've certainly been involved in the fitness community for a long time. And a lot of people socially motivate their transformation. A lot of people socially motivate their progress and socially motivate their reputation. And they view this as kind of a hierarchy game and a hierarchy battle. And a lot of those people tend to burn out or, or you just come back to the original dichotomy of control of the stoics, which is that.
00:33:35
Speaker
They, they get a lot of attention when they start because they're seeing great results to their training. And then they hit a wall very quickly. I'm kind of sidestepping your CrossFit comment. I think there's something true to that. I think there's something true about that, about people just being haters. But to interpret it more charitably, it's this view that these people will burn out because they, they develop their motivation from things outside of their control. And so I guess developmentally, when you're starting, don't do that.
00:34:01
Speaker
And then when you end up becoming kind of good, be very careful that it doesn't drift into that and you don't, you don't lose sight of the original path. That would be, I think the most charitable way that I would take what Epictetus is saying. Right.
00:34:16
Speaker
Yeah, but I guess the question is maybe you want to make an action easier initially and you might take advantage of some of that social, some of that social benefits. You know, you're, sign up with some of your buddies to do a 30 day challenge or something like that. And now that gets your foot in the door and it's after those 30 days, are you going to become someone who
00:34:40
Speaker
gets fully invested for the right reasons or the wrong reasons or what's the next play. I think there's something to be said for maybe even initially being open about what you're doing, doing things other people might think is cringe. I think that's what the kids say these days or something of that sort. Cringe is in, I think, unless I'm out of date with the kids. I think cringe is still in.
00:35:07
Speaker
So that's where I put my question mark around Epictetus's or this general idea that maybe one shouldn't show off. There is something to that, but I think if you come back to this view of Stoic non-judgment, as it were, you can't really say whether the other person is showing off or not. So then when it comes to your own action, you might put
00:35:32
Speaker
you know, really inquire, am I doing this because I think it is going to make me a better person or not? And I don't think that means, I don't think you should necessarily just default to silence.
Community Perspectives and Modern Practices
00:35:47
Speaker
I think that's a very moderate, reasonable position. And there is something you said to this. It is very stoic to embrace cringe, I think. The stoic should bring back the cringe. It is stoic to not... You know, if you find it motivating...
00:36:04
Speaker
to post your progress pictures or to post your daily ice bath or these kind of tasks you've undertaken. If you find that motivating, there is one sense in which it is quite stoic to say, I don't care that other people think this is lame. This is holding me to account. This is beneficial.
00:36:26
Speaker
I think, I think I'm sold on that and I'm persuaded on that. And I'm saying, yeah, get rid of the haters, but that internal state or don't listen to the haters, but that internal state is something to return to. So yeah, in terms of what that looks like externally can look different. But I, as long as we keep this, I'm standing by this idea that I think Epictetus gets it right that there, there is a temptation to go off course here and you need to kind of keep a finger on your internal state while you're doing that.
00:36:54
Speaker
Yeah, there is always this interesting question of, as a community, do you want to promote things like voluntary suffering as a way to positively express the value that suffering is not bad, or should you
00:37:10
Speaker
be more ambivalent about it because you're worried that as people start posting their pictures about voluntary suffering that the thing is going to take on a logic of itself and no longer be focused on knowledge but focused on these social facts and so on.
00:37:30
Speaker
I always just go back to Epictetus's quote here, which I had earlier, which is that all practices that are applied to the body by those who are giving it exercise may also be useful if they're directed in some way towards desire and aversion. Whatever you do, it can be helpful as long as it's coming back and focusing on that. In terms of the community question,
00:37:54
Speaker
I think we should promote and support anybody who is doing intentionally challenging things for the purpose of self-improvement. It can go wrong, but everything can go wrong, or you can do all those other examples. You can end up like Epictetus is an example of those people who show off their ability to recite Chrysippus, who show up how many books they've read. This issue happens no matter what you do. So it's coming to keep a finger on, but I'm generally supportive of people that
00:38:24
Speaker
are taking on challenges as long as they're doing it for the right reasons. Right. Yeah, I think so. I agree with that. I think people should take on in general more challenges and celebrate those who do. Of course, there's always these questions about what people's internal states are, but in a way you can only make judgments about what you're given. And a part of many roles is doing challenging things, doing great things so you can applaud people when they do that.
00:38:54
Speaker
while very in line the risks that we've discussed.
00:38:59
Speaker
So summarizing or wrapping this all up, we've talked a bit about why the stoics are pro suffering. We've talked about what some of those examples are pro voluntary suffering, voluntary discomfort, what some of those examples look like, some of the cautions, but I'm going to take a run at a summary here and then see maybe if that leads you to any other questions or if you think I'm, you know, there's the question of what the stoics think and then the question of if we disagree. So that, that Epictetus discussion we were having, you know, this question of what Epictetus thinks and then if he's getting it wrong.
00:39:27
Speaker
So I think the overall point I would summarize something like this, which is that, you know, physical training and suffering, voluntary physical discomfort can be helpful, especially as it relates to training, desire and aversion towards indifference and cultivating discipline or an ability to do difficult things. And that idea also of being prepared to do difficult things.
00:39:46
Speaker
So the Stoics are two thumbs up on that. But there's two important caveats. First, we have to be careful not to focus on the body too much and allow that focus to distract from the mind. We can do difficult things in our life that do not require physical suffering, such as being brave in social situations, limiting unnecessary pleasures, or studying Stoic texts. So we don't have to focus too much on the body and treat it as some kind of cheat code or shortcut. It's not the only way to prepare ourselves or to do difficult things.
00:40:15
Speaker
And second, there's a real temptation to be prideful about voluntary suffering, to want to show it off. And this can be actively harmful. So when we do practice voluntary discomfort, I think the stoics at least think we should do what Epictetus recommends here, which is, quote, if you ever find yourself extremely thirsty, take some cold water into your mouth and then spit it out again without telling a soul.
00:40:38
Speaker
And this is an example of voluntary discomfort done for the sake of improvement, not for the sake of our egos. You've done this difficult thing and there's been nobody to tell. And so that's kind of, that's, that's my opinion on the stoics on this. What do you think?
00:40:52
Speaker
I think, yeah, I think that's well put. That's both of those, the case for voluntary suffering is as you stated it. I suppose with the supplement of the argument from preparation, as we put it earlier, where I think Stokes think it's important to be prepared for a variety of different circumstances. And one way to be more prepared is to do some amount of voluntary suffering, but that's not the core, that's not the core motivation as you stated.
00:41:19
Speaker
So yeah, and then we have maybe we're in slight disagreement around where you should default to, but I think we, we both recognize the different benefits and risks. I think it would be useful to talk about some ways people can practice voluntary suffering today and any aches or ways you do or don't practice it in your own life.
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think for me, the two, like I do sport and lifting weights, like running Brazilian jiu-jitsu. These for me are voluntary. I'm doing it voluntarily and it's incredibly discomfortable or discomfort. Like it's, it's not fun in the physical sense, in the moment to moment. So that for me is that, is that, is that moment where I, I'm kind of facing my fears.
00:42:09
Speaker
So any sort of sport, any sort of physical challenge, there's, there's another, there's another idea here. Also, you know, referring to stoa in meditation. I don't know if that's so much in, in, we're getting this, this, this question about if voluntary discomfort has to be physical or not.
00:42:25
Speaker
versus mental, but there's something very uncomfortable about sitting and meditating, especially as, as you're cultivating that skill for the first time, where it's like, I don't want to be doing this or my mind wants to be doing something else. Or, you know, I want to be looking at my phone or I want to be distracted. So I think that's another, I think that's another way of doing it.
00:42:46
Speaker
Certainly cultivating temperance and self-control in that kind of sense. I would say sport for me is a bit more, I guess it's also about self-control totally. And then also a bit about courage. Like I'm going to do this difficult thing. I'm going to have fun doing it because sometimes difficult things are fun or beneficial. So that, that's in my own practice. What about you Caleb?
00:43:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. I would say so. I run a lot. Running is one form in which I do voluntary suffering. Of course, I also in many moments find it enjoyable. I like to run in different beautiful places or listen to an audiobook while running. But other points while I'm running, I really don't. And I think that
00:43:30
Speaker
One lesson from running, if you will, is that pain often comes in waves and you can have the courage to endure a given wave and keep on persisting. And that's something that I think I've practiced through running. So that's one of my examples. Meditation, of course, I think if you see voluntary suffering or voluntary discomfort as
00:43:59
Speaker
enduring pain or forgoing pleasure. And I think many, many times when I meditate, it feels like I am forgoing pleasure because I would rather either do something else or particular distracting thoughts might emerge that are, you know, screaming to be satisfied by some quick form of near term gratification, checking my phone or what have you.
00:44:23
Speaker
So those are the main ways. I think this idea of living on less, not living as luxurious as one could, and there are a number of different reasons to do this, but I think one is related to voluntary suffering because
00:44:41
Speaker
It's just a way of realizing the value of indifference. They are indifference. You don't need more stuff. Perhaps given one's position, you ought to donate more of your wealth and so on. I think it's another thought we hadn't touched on as much, but it's worth mentioning. Yeah, again, I keep going back to some of these Rufus' comments about self-control and courage.
00:45:03
Speaker
As long as it's hitting one of those two things, I think it's the example. And so when you're giving up some of your possessions, you're living more minimalistically, you're cultivating that self-control. You're saying, I don't need to have everything I could have. I don't need to have every indifferent that I'm capable of possessing. I can actively choose to forego them.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah, great examples. And I love the way you frame that lesson from running as a lesson, right? Like it connects with this, this, this ebb and flow of pain to, it connects with the stoic idea that virtuous knowledge is that, you know, you've learned something, right? You've, you've learned, you haven't trained your body, but you've learned something about the way the world is through the act of engaging and running. And I think that's really cool.
00:45:48
Speaker
There's, there's a lot of discussion of kind of the stereotype is this ice baths or cold showers. I personally don't do them at all. I tried a cold shower once and I was like, this is terrible. So maybe I'm just too weak. I was like, this is. Showers are one of my, one of my greatest pleasures. Like I don't, I don't drink coffee. So like I shower in the morning is like the way that I wake up. So, but I think the benefit to those is that they're very, they're very non-committal, right? Like it's.
00:46:17
Speaker
It's easy for us to say, like, you know, you already have a habit of running. I already have a habit of doing jitsu. It's not like, yeah, just add like, you know, six to 10 hours into your week of doing a sport. That'll be a great way to ease kind of difficult to do. Right. And that's where something like a cold shower.
00:46:32
Speaker
I think can come in where it's this idea of like you always have that option to you. You always have that option to do this very uncomfortable thing that it has no harmful, like has no long-term harm to you. It's like it's there, that choice is there. And I think that's something that's appealing about it. It's very kind of a universal piece of advice, but not something I've put into my own practice at all. And maybe some people listening love it, but I haven't been sold on it. Yeah. I do cold showers on occasion, but I haven't made it into a habit lately.
00:47:01
Speaker
I received an awesome email about Stoa the other day asking whether, so we just launched a routines feature on Stoa, which means you can go through different steps, a lesson or a meditation. Those are two different steps. And when we first launched them, they didn't have autoplay. So if you had, you couldn't autoplay the lesson and then do the meditation.
00:47:22
Speaker
And I got an email that said, can you insert autoplay? I like to listen to the meditations while I'm doing my ice bath. And I don't want to, I want to go back to my phone after I finished the lesson to play the rest of the meditation. So that was a, that was a classic Stoic feature request, I'd say.
00:47:41
Speaker
Yeah, they're stronger, stronger than me. More discipline, more, more courage, I would say, than I have certainly. But yeah, that's where you can start doubling up. That's, that's a secret too. That'll be helpful. But no, that's great. That's great to hear. I guess, I guess in the takeaway, it's one of these things where it's like you, you.
00:48:00
Speaker
You hear this a lot because I think people that are in the kind of self-improvement movements are attracted to stoicism. And there's always kind of this risk of kind of a conceptual breeding together, which is to say, you know, people think the stoics are into this stuff, but the stoics didn't really have anything to say about it or the stoics disagreed. So it's fun to go back to the text and see, no, the stoics identified this.
00:48:23
Speaker
They thought there was real benefits available, but they did, but it was a nuanced view and they thought we had to be careful. And that's kind of, it's cool to see, you know, them talking about this 2000 years ago as these kind of, you know, staking a claim and a position on that. And when we, when I presented this spectrum at the start of the conversation on one side of the spectrum, it's that physical training is necessary for self-improvement. On the other side, it's that it's actively harmful or at best a distraction. And I would say the stoics are somewhere in the middle.
00:48:52
Speaker
Which is like, it's a, it's a tool in your toolbox. It's a valuable one. Use it if it's, if it's helping you, but if the tool starts being unhelpful, you know, discard the tool and it's not the only tool
Feedback and Continuous Learning
00:49:04
Speaker
you have. Don't think you need to use it. If there's, there's other ways we can challenge ourselves. Like I said, if we want to build courage, we can like do something nice to somebody that's a bit embarrassing. That's a way to build courage. Doesn't need to be, you know, doesn't need to be a physical training. That's not the only way to develop courage to self-control.
00:49:23
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, that's well put. I think my last few words will just be shouting out a ancient Stoic model, Cato the Younger, who used to practice this both in a private and public way. So a passage from the book, Rome's Last Citizen by Jimmy Sony goes as follows. Cato chose to wear the simple outmoded clothing of Rome's mythical founders and to go barefoot in sun and cold.
00:49:52
Speaker
powerful men gifted themselves villas and vineyards, Cato preferred a life of monkish regality. Roman politics was well-oiled with bribes, strategic marriages, and under-the-table favors. Cato's vote famously had no price. And that's a picture of
00:50:10
Speaker
how someone's ability to endure ordinary pain is sort of connected up with this moral view about resisting bribery and being generally upright. And I think that's an inspiring picture. Yeah, that's great. What I like about that Caleb is it shows the what for and the so what of it.
00:50:37
Speaker
The idea, as you said of, of, you know, today it's, it's, it's taking a cold shower tomorrow. It's resisting a bribe. And one of those seems kind of maybe inconsequential, but the other one is really important. And if it's preparation for that, you know, just a small preparation for that. Well, that's great. That's worthwhile. Absolutely. Excellent. Well, I think I'm going to go shopping and then maybe I'll take a cold shower. I will not. Awesome. Great conversation. All right. This is fun.
00:51:08
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Store Conversations. If you found this conversation useful, please give us a rating on Apple, Spotify, or whatever podcast platform you use, and share it with a friend. We are just starting this podcast, so every bit of help goes a long way.
00:51:24
Speaker
And I'd like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. Do check out his work at ancientliar.com and please get in touch with us at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback or questions. Until next time.