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BBBC Reads Ward - Arc 12.5 - 12.x - Heavens
64 Plays14 days ago
This story isn’t intended for young or sensitive readers. Readers who are on the lookout for trigger warnings are advised to give Worm a pass. Complete list of potential triggers: here
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The Brockton Bay Book Club discusses J.C. McCrae's Ward live! The gang reads a portion of Ward and comes together to share our thoughts with each other and anyone who want's to participate.
This week we cover Arc 12.5 - 12.x - Heavens
Read along here
Play along with this week's BBBC BINGO while you listen!
Support us and connect with us @brocktonbaybc
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Transcript
Introduction and Format Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
And we're live. Welcome back. Welcome, Mega City. This evening, a titan appearing between worlds. All of this will be brought to you by Portello's. Portello's, the only Italian noodle restaurant left over after the apocalypse. Portello's.
00:00:21
Speaker
And have you had a severe severing and lashing by red whips? You may be entitled to financial compensation. Only on this episode tonight of Brockton Bay Book Club.
00:00:34
Speaker
Very nice. here work Thank you. Came up with those in the last moment. All of these come in the last moment, but do you know what doesn't come in the last moment?
00:00:46
Speaker
Arc 12. The back half. mean it It kind of did. kind of did come in the last moment. Maybe it did. You know...
00:00:59
Speaker
it was something It was something. Some people say that it is certainly one of the most things of all time. Tonight, however, for those of you who have...
00:01:13
Speaker
I've never been here before. We are the Brockton Bay Book Club. ah We are but just a bunch of friends who got together to read Ward by J.C. McRae, a.k.a. Wildbow, a superhero serial online.
00:01:26
Speaker
um I'm sure link is in description if you wanted to read along with us. yeah ah But my name is Alan. I'm one of your hosts. We also have Hannah. Hi. Jacob. Hello. Nick.
00:01:38
Speaker
Hello there. And of course, Michael. Hello. All right. um We will also be playing bingo. The link is in the description. If you want to contribute to the bingo, ah please feel free to do so over on our Patreon where we will take ah you know submissions and we do some extra stuff. There are some things that are only available to our patrons um that we try to push out. but um As for tonight...
Arc 12 Discussion: Pacing and Serialization Challenges
00:02:06
Speaker
ah Let's keep no spoilers in chat as per usual. And let's go over our initial feelings of Arc 12 Nick. Let's start with you on the back half of Arc 12. What are your feelings? Yeah, yeah, yeah. um Overall, I'm kind of of two minds because we say a lot how getting the arcs split up like this may be...
00:02:30
Speaker
causes us to feel certain ways about the first half that the second half then corrects in a sense. And I feel very much that way about arc 12 where I'm like, okay, finally, it feels like things are correcting in a way that I'm enjoying more now in the second half.
00:02:45
Speaker
On the other hand, though, I do recognize that this is a web serial, which means... you know people are going days or weeks between reading the arcs and then being released and the chapters and things. And it does make me think, you know what, maybe there is some merit though, even though we're reading it in pieces, like it's a genuine reaction to what we feel is difficult moment, like enough to where people in the comments are saying, i don't know if I can keep reading after this. Like, I feel like I'm just done at this point.
00:03:14
Speaker
Um, sort of and then with the revelations we get at the end of Arc 12, sort of like, well, is Wild Bo pushing its readers too far?
Ward's Complexity and Character Focus
00:03:22
Speaker
The trust of his audience too far, so to speak. um And I don't know. i I really enjoyed the second half and in a lot of ways. um But it also felt like... ah and I don't know. but it It feels unearned maybe as well in a weird sort of way.
00:03:41
Speaker
And then, of course, there is the classic... we've solved one problem only to now have a much larger one, it seems. um So, you know, which was a pattern in worm, but I felt like we got more breaks in worm than we do in ward.
00:03:57
Speaker
So i don't know that initial thoughts done.
00:04:05
Speaker
Jacob. Yeah, I think that's, I a lot of that. I did enjoy the back half of the arc way more than the front half.
00:04:15
Speaker
lot of lot of really good moments. There's something to be said for building towards a confrontation with an antagonist that feels really earned. Like we've been working towards Cradle for a while ah compared to March, which felt really rushed and just unsatisfying in every way.
00:04:34
Speaker
And then, of course, the end of the you know we come back to March at the end of the arc, and... Again, it was just, it was like, man, it was a cinematic moment. I'm not going to lie. Like the showdown was awesome and it was written really well. and but We'll, we'll get there obviously, but there's still that moment in the back of my head where I was like, but I wasn't really reading for this moment.
00:04:56
Speaker
Like it was good and I liked it a lot and it was, it felt good, but. There's just a lot in in Ward. And I felt like all the big moments in Wyrm, I'm sure someone will correct me here, felt like all of the big moments were still Taylor and was like always Taylor, focused on Taylor.
00:05:12
Speaker
Or maybe another Undercider, you know, to kind of clued in there. But... There's just, I mean, and Wild Boat does ensemble cast very well, maybe better than any
Storytelling Comparisons and Ensemble Casts
00:05:22
Speaker
other author I know, but there's still the limitation of like so many characters and moving pieces. It's really hard to appreciate these smaller moments when they happen or these confrontations or things like that when I can only dedicate so much of my time and emotional like, it ah
00:05:46
Speaker
being to do a single you know group of characters at the time. So yeah, I think i think Nick's kind of right on point. It's ah it's It's it's yeah ho is good good back. there's I like this a lot. There's a lot there's a lot to like. lot to like yeah Hannah, if you'll allow me to bounce in before you.
00:06:04
Speaker
No, please, please, go ahead. go Off of that, um I'd like maybe at the end of the podcast to talk about what we would rewrite in this section to like make March approachable to the story or whatnot, like to integrate it better.
00:06:19
Speaker
um However, going off of just sort of the ensemble cast and how big the world feels. um Because while Wyrm is a large world, it is slowly expanded in terms of our view of it, you know, out little by little.
00:06:42
Speaker
It is Brockton Bay up into a certain point. um And then, you know, it's India and Chicago, and then we're just kind of all over the world and it doesn't even matter. It's just earth.
00:06:55
Speaker
um and And that feels really good. Everything adds a little bit of a layer. You know, the the travelers coming over adds literally the second planet. Even though you've heard about it before, it's not like it's elaborated
Pacing Issues and Editorial Oversight
00:07:12
Speaker
on.
00:07:13
Speaker
And Ward does this thing where you have the opportunity to start small again because of the post-apocalypse, because of we Well, we know planet Earth. It's kind of gone.
00:07:27
Speaker
And you have the opportunity to start in a small town, work your way up. But we start off by having, like, the machine army. Like, that entirely fleshed out almost.
00:07:38
Speaker
We have the giant God Tower. We have all of these other things that are just kind of launched out and then brought back.
00:07:49
Speaker
And there's no steady progression of those interludes. I feel like their scope is so large. We should be getting Machine Army like after this, I feel like an arc 16 is a machine army, you know, interlude um time. I feel like the progress the power scaling of the interludes is also just as like, should be just as important as the actual story, like staying within that level as you move outwards. And it doesn't have that. And it also made me think a lot of our D&D campaign that I didn't think went so well.
00:08:31
Speaker
Big ensemble cast, big universe in which lots of things are going on that aren't the main characters. And I think that's part of why that world that I made didn't work so well, is because there is a lot going on.
00:08:46
Speaker
And it felt like those characters were just kind of lost in it a little bit. um And it makes me think of how, on the flip side, yeah still relating to D&D and this, um critical role, the Mighty Nein, or not the Mighty Nein, the first one, Vox Machina's critical role, is, while big, ah somewhat centered on our people,
00:09:12
Speaker
And we make moves and everything kind of relates to them. But the Mighty Nein starts with a group that I honestly kind of felt was like out of place from the giant goings on.
00:09:26
Speaker
And they spend an entire season kind of working themselves into the politics. If that were the case with Wyrm, which I think it's a it's a little bit tough.
00:09:38
Speaker
It was a little bit of tougher to start at nothing and work our way in with season one of Mighty Nein. In this, i we should have worked ourselves into the world enough that when things happen, they directly affect our
Humor Break: Milk and Meme Culture
00:09:52
Speaker
characters. And instead, we are still in the point of the story where we're in a massive world and sometimes things happen and they don't fucking matter to our characters.
00:10:03
Speaker
um Like, ultimately, March's death doesn't matter to the main breakthrough team. right Right. Like, other than, like, oh, well, thank goodness we don't have to deal with that. that would but all Like, saying, oh, ah oh Contender died. Okay, cool. I'm glad we don't have to have one-on-one showdown with him later. Or Operator Red, you know?
00:10:26
Speaker
If you said, yeah like, you're just, oh oh, yeah, I guess they died. That doesn't matter anymore. Like... That's one less power we have to deal with. That's all March feels like. um But I realize that was a lot.
00:10:37
Speaker
My feelings. It was a lot of feelings, but they're good feelings. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'll echo what Nick and Jacob both said about the two halves of the arc. I definitely liked the second half better than the first half.
00:10:54
Speaker
Yeah. Once again, i i find myself asking myself this on the regular, which is not a fun question to ask yourself. Am I too stupid to enjoy this book? I, again and again, i feel like I'm missing things. And it's so frustrating because i i
Interludes and Story Depth
00:11:14
Speaker
listen to the audiobook and i i find myself, you know, hitting the go back 15 seconds button quite a bit to be like, wait,
00:11:25
Speaker
Did that make sense? And I listened to it again and I go, no maybe. i don't know. i don't think so. i guess we're just going to keep going. Maybe it'll make sense. And there are moments that feel heavy that should feel like I i get it.
00:11:41
Speaker
I don't. And that's really frustrating to feel like I'm too stupid to read this book, which is not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like I had a couple of those moments in Worm, but it was always like it felt like.
00:11:56
Speaker
There was some nuance or like, honestly, my biggest blunder was the cabin thing, but like, whatever. ah But like, ultimately, though, I, I, I didn't never really felt like that was a continual thing. I just was like offshoot moments from Worm. With Ward, I feel like I continually am missing a big picture thing. And it's, it's very frustrating.
00:12:17
Speaker
Yeah, as as an example I thought of with that too, part of it for me, because I get that, like even I read it, but I would like scroll up and be like, wait a second, what just happened? Did I read that right? Did I understand what happened right? Part of it to me is I feel like there's a little bit of information overload. And as ah as a micro example of that, why does Victoria feel the need to name and number every single guard? Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:43
Speaker
And why do we need to know that? Why do we need to fucking know that? Like, yeah, because all it does is it end you know, switching languages and like trying to figure out my whatever, like at a certain point, it's just like this.
00:12:58
Speaker
This is so unnecessary. Ultimately, it doesn't even really matter. Like it it shows her analytical nature, which is cool, but I don't know. It's one of those like.
00:13:10
Speaker
Just as a microcosm example of that information overload where I'm like, I'm trying to... And then you know with Wild Boat, you never know, like is this super important? So you're like, do I need to remember Sieben? Do I need to remember... really hard to know. play home Yeah.
00:13:24
Speaker
you know it's like yeah It's like in an anime. If somebody in the classroom has a weird colored hair, you know that they're important. And it's one of those stupid little subtle things like we can make fun of anime for, but it makes it really easy to know, okay, that person's probably important. Or like everyone in the school has that like kind of blurry blank face. And then this one person has like very detailed eyebrows. You're like, ah, yes, the protagonist. And so ah because of, yeah, because you running into so much detail and so many characters and so many different powers and so many names and how they interact and who's on whose team and who's a mercenary for this person and who, I don't,
00:14:00
Speaker
I don't fucking know. Okay, fine. Already. and and And the problem with that is also, because, like, even the whole naming characters thing, um we can get into the details later. But ultimately, though, I felt frustrated. I i mean, I definitely enjoyed these chapters a lot more. um i have so many thoughts about that final fake-out ending that we need to get to. Because I'm, that actually made me so upset, but we'll get to that. ah
00:14:32
Speaker
We will. Yeah, I mean, I think that this had this had me excited for the next chapter, which I haven't felt for Ward in a while. So that was really nice to feel excited about that, to feel like we're coming to this big culmination. i i i liked some of the choices that were made in terms of the team and Victoria and utilizing people's powers. I really enjoyed some of that.
00:14:57
Speaker
um I thought the interludes were really good.
Character Analysis: Cradle's Sociopathy
00:15:00
Speaker
Ultimately, great second half to the arc. But the story as a whole is bringing me down a bit.
00:15:13
Speaker
So, you know. That's fair. Also, let it be known that Alan made the first TV or movie reference of the night. Thank you. Got him. Wait, what was it? The Mighty Nein? Oh, Vox Machina. Yeah.
00:15:32
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I see. Thank you. all of you here now, we will talk about the outro. When we get to the outro, did I remind Hannah to remind everybody to read it and then read it ah right after I made the introductions to this podcast?
00:15:50
Speaker
Yes, I did. You were reading this stuff. I read it. What do you think? I read it. and then went heyja And then between that and saying, hey, Jacob, that's that's when I read it. let No wonder you missed about how i how I said it was weird. You know, all the milk. I talked about, like, how much milk I had today, and you totally missed that. i yeah Nick, it wasn't that long of a chapter. I know you didn't say that. Damn.
00:16:17
Speaker
I tried. All right. Gaslight, gatekeep, milk. Girlboss. Gaslight, gatekeep, 2%. Let's go.
00:16:30
Speaker
ah Well, on that note, let's get into this. I have not even a full page of notes. so um Yeah, um I will say there are pieces of this that feel like they can go well together. So as an example, 12.5 and 12.6, feel like fit very naturally together.
00:16:54
Speaker
um i feel like fit very naturally together um because then there's an interlude right after. And it's all like the preparation stuff up until Cradle wakes up, basically. So if it's all right, I'm going to put those together.
00:17:06
Speaker
yeah. yeah like i go for it Let's go for it. So 12.5. The team discusses Cradle and his tactics and make battle plans. Chastity is able to pull Rain out of his cluster dream.
00:17:20
Speaker
The team and... Nope, that's bad grammar. The team prepares to boil the egg with Rain's power. 12.6. Victoria and Rain sneak around the outside of the building, using his emotion power to raise the tension. The mooks start infighting, and Cradle wakes up.
00:17:46
Speaker
Wow. I did think it was cool, especially knowing the details we know later um and from Love Lost's interlude. um as well, kind of connecting the threads between those now.
00:17:59
Speaker
We're like, Rain gets yoinked out of the dream, and we find out the effect that had of like, oh, what happened when you were yoinked out? And he's like, I don't know, I think Loveloss threw me her tokens.
00:18:13
Speaker
And they're like oh, that's why you're a pissy little boy right now. like yeah i don't remember if this was now and until later. Yeah, that's why everybody's a little pissy. she And he's like, oh, got it. but I did think I'm grateful that rain is getting to do super useful things with his emotion power now.
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah. out And finding the right way to like get people to start, you know, using guilt to either not do things or to do things, you know, that, I don't know. It's a,
00:18:41
Speaker
I appreciate it. um I just really appreciate it. I mean, I imagine Rain would be really cool as like a hostage negotiat negotiator or something. imagine that he like, it's like, hey man, you really don't want to do this. And then just is like slowly leaking guilt. He's like, hey man, let's just talk. We're just, we get a week. as And the longer he can sit there, the longer that guy just cooks in guilt.
00:19:05
Speaker
yeah's cool Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Guilt juices. Yeah. yeah delicious um yeah Yeah. Yeah. I will say the the two things from 12-6 is Victoria says to Rain, well, we don't want to hurt him. And I'm just like, come on. just Why not?
00:19:27
Speaker
Let's hurt them, please. Taylor would have hurted them two times already. So hard. yeah would have hurted them so hard. so hurt then Capsaicin bees right in the groin every time.
00:19:43
Speaker
ye Right in the eyeballs. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's it's so cool, though, how Rain does get to be useful and gets to use his power in a fun, manipulative way. um yeah i really liked the cape. I didn't write down her actual name. Victoria just calls her Red.
00:20:02
Speaker
Yes. The one who's like... ah kind of got like lava Kaiser powers. like Like industrial power. like it's Oh, um, Aetna? and No, not Aetna. Aetna tosses the globules.
00:20:17
Speaker
glass of yeah Magma glass glass balls. Yeah, magma glass balls. This is... ah Yeah, she like summons industrial pieces out of the ground. Yes, the giant saw blades and stuff. Yeah, the giant saw blades and stuff, which is super cool. I'm just like, oh, wow, they that's okay. Like, get it in industry summoning. I'm like, I don't know.
00:20:39
Speaker
I don't know. But it's all like molten and hot and she can turn it on. and well She summons like a wrecking ball at one point later. i'm like, geez. Yeah, she's badass.
00:20:52
Speaker
Scary. ah made She's got like a Russian sounding name, I think, but I don't remember what it is. Are we talking about Mayoshka? Yes, I was going to say it's Matryoshka, but it's not Matryoshka. Yeah, Matryoshka.
00:21:04
Speaker
Yeah. Hell yeah. yeah yes Good old babushka.
00:21:10
Speaker
Yeah. um The only thing I have for 12.5 is Nancy and Theo. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:21:21
Speaker
For those of you who don't, well, but you should remember it because our the most important lady of all time brings it up as well later on. Oh, yeah. Narwhal brings it up later. Yes. yeah But, ah you know, of course, Nancy, I'm like, okay, who's Nancy?
00:21:36
Speaker
You know, who in the Chicago, who in the Chicago wards is Nancy? And was like, oh, it's gonna be one or two people. It is Cuff. Cuff is Nancy. Oh, yay. Oh, that makes me really happy. I had no idea who that was. She is also a metal kinetic person.
00:21:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. last yeahp Nick. So, you know, somebody you can stand. It's true. It's true. I'm all about that metal.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yep. She's the like the monk metal bender, isn't she? personally Yeah, she's the one with like... No, I'm pretty sure that was her. Cuff was the one with sort of the martial art prowess.
00:22:12
Speaker
If I recall correctly. Yeah, because she had like bands on her hands and stuff. yeah Not bands on her hands! Yep. Oh lord, oh lord. Not bands on bands.
00:22:25
Speaker
Um, yeah. So, uh, there's the a fun, fun little pair. Um, this is, and we'll get to it in six and seven. Uh, I don't feel like there's a lot of need for these chapters.
00:22:43
Speaker
Um, if, you know, just a small bit of me thinking about writing styles and getting rid of stuff because that's something I'm more aware of. ah For every chapter in this arc, there needed to be one last chapter. So you could have 50% of this arc and it would have, like, honest to God, you could have gotten rid of 12.5, 12.6. You probably could have kept 12.7.
00:23:12
Speaker
You could skip 12.8. And if you just kept 12.7, 12.9, nothing would change the story. and if you just kept twelve point seven twelve point nine nothing would change in the story right Basically, yeah. Well, there's one thing that happens in 12.8 that I feel like will come back later. There's one thing, yes. but like But like you said earlier, Nick, it is just information overload for just...
00:23:36
Speaker
it halts momentum for me. And while it is very accurate, it does not do well for painting the, the picture is painted in my mind, which I get kind of isn't how, like we've talked about ah that wild bow does not have mine's eye. I forget what it is already, but.
00:23:59
Speaker
Fantasia. Fantasia. Aphantasia, yeah. ah So it makes sense that he has to spell all of this out. However, I think I'll always forget that. It is incredibly detrimental to ah the the momentum of the story when this should have been two chapters for two fights and...
00:24:23
Speaker
the in-between kind of, maybe one in-between, but it's a lot of words to say. They went in they beat the mooks, they got into a fight with Cradle.
00:24:36
Speaker
Like... Yeah, they cook cradle inside. I don't really care what you labeled them. We know that she has an analytical mind and we don't have to spend an entire three paragraphs labeling people to say that she categorized them in German and some in Chinese so that she could separate them into groups but no to the total order.
00:24:56
Speaker
That's really easy to say just the way I
Shards and Character Connections
00:24:59
Speaker
said it. like Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's certainly a bit of bit of bloat. What did you say, Jacob? No, we've said it before. like i mean if you give if you If you gave Wildbo like a trusted, competent editor that they could that he could work with, he'd be unstoppable.
00:25:14
Speaker
I believe. His stories would be incredible. like They're already incredible, but like yeah man, yeah what he could do with a proper novel and and editing team would be amazing. Can you imagine, though?
00:25:29
Speaker
I'm just imagining. i don't remember how many million words Ward is. but it's like first draft ward. my God. 5 million draft two of ward 500,000.
00:25:39
Speaker
five hundred thousand Instead of mean like having to break it down into like five volumes for one book, you could actually put it in one book. It'd be amazing.
00:25:53
Speaker
i I would, I would say worm needs it less ward for sure. i think could be like, maybe a million words less and still get the same exact story across with the same amount of detail because there is, i would, I would argue almost every other paragraph doesn't need to exist. And that's, and I think too, that's the hard part of doing a web serial. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. We've talked about this. We've talked about that before is I think it's it's probably very natural to bloat your story out to try to expand it for the purpose of a web serial.
00:26:30
Speaker
It's just part of the format. I imagine it's... common I mean, it's why, like, even if you read old web serials, like books that were written as web serials, I think Tale of Two Cities is one.
00:26:41
Speaker
um i want to say there's a few others. Basically everything by Fyodor Dovdievsky. Yeah, everything by Dostoevsky. you're like, why in the middle of Anna Karenina are there like three chapters dedicated to Russian farming techniques?
00:26:56
Speaker
And you're like, well, because, you know, it was a serial and he was getting paid by the word and not by. Yeah. but yeah Not to not by novel. So to there were also a lot of books.
00:27:08
Speaker
There was a lot of novels at the time that were published as a set Of books rather than as a singular book. Like Jane Austen's Emma was published as I think five in a five volume set, which is ridiculous.
00:27:25
Speaker
But, you know, that's also kind of part of the times. But but yeah, yeah. Exactly. Because part of it, I imagine, is with a web serial, you want to keep people interested. You're trying to sort of the Goosebumps problem where like every chapter in Goosebumps books, if you haven't noticed, ends in a cliffhanger, even if it's totally unnecessary cliffhanger. Yeah, absolutely. And not the Wild Boat does that at all. It was his mom with grilled cheese. And you're like, oh, okay. And not the Wild Boat does that by any means, but I think it lends itself to a bit of expanding what is absolute necessary. At the same time, though, i don't know. it's It is what it is. i take it as is.
00:28:02
Speaker
um And then we had highlights like the interludes where I feel like the interludes are often longer, I think, than regular chapters. And yet I feel like they're worth so much more. And they are 12F is an example of that.
00:28:17
Speaker
So if we're ready to move on this one, the 12 point none was 10,000 words. ah But most the like the average for this arc um was about seven and a half thousand probably. average were 100,000 or not 100,000, 10,000. they were a little bit longer. Yeah.
00:28:41
Speaker
or not a hundred thousand ah ten thousand and my men yeah so they were they were a little bit longer yeah Yeah. But I feel like they're worth more in a way in terms of story development and interest. Oh, yeah. There was one, two. There were six in this chapter and they were spread beginning, middle and end. Yeah.
00:29:00
Speaker
It was Z. It was March, Love Lost, the Shards. And then and now we're going to get Dauntless and everyone. Yeah. yeah Yeah. Well, should we get into Cradle, perhaps?
00:29:13
Speaker
but Yeah, let's do it. This was great interesting. We've been waiting for so long. We've been waiting for this one, yeah. 12.F, Interlude, Cradle. Flashback to Cradle's sociopathic childhood.
00:29:27
Speaker
His shards view of its connection, his trigger event, night six in the dream room, and getting a power boost in the present. um Alan, are you the one who said that Cradle is based off of Caillou?
00:29:41
Speaker
A chat told us that, and I think it relayed that. But it makes sense. It makes more sense now. I see that. One of you, one of you i'm going to say Michael sent me the ah meme, which is the guy being like, all right, we're going to try and not crash out seeing Caillou do his thing. Let's see how long we can go. Caillou like immediately it's that e does the intro. Caillou walks in and said like, all right, we're going to make like peanut butter and jelly. He's like, i don't want peanut butter and jelly. And he's like, I can't do it. It's getting worse. I am fixing my camera, so I'm still here.
00:30:23
Speaker
okay And we know you're upset at Caillou. Just the mention of him. He's upset because he's the one who sent the meme probably too. fixing his camera while he weeps openly. yeah just Tearing, gnashing of teeth. No, no. Sack cloth and ashes.
00:30:37
Speaker
That was funny. Yeah, no I believe that is true. And ah even if it isn't spiritually, it is. It feels like it for sure. I mean like his opening thing is like... Just because you have cancer doesn't mean you can bully your family. Right?
00:30:53
Speaker
No. No. If only he had cancer. He didn't have cancer. I know. Well, we unconfirmed. We don't know that. Don't connect a spoiled rotten child with leukemia child. No, I know. All I know is I went on a cabin trip one time. Let me tell you, by far the most annoying person there was the person who had cancer. Okay. No, we don't need that.
00:31:21
Speaker
yeah real life never what are you dying nick what I don't think those were related. Those were not related. listened those just happens There was a line.
00:31:32
Speaker
i like tease in the line, right? I like to give the line a little tease. Alan is just like, sure, a little tickle. And Alan busted right now. Classic. ds I'm like, ha ha, you had cancer. Alan's like, I hate people with cancer.
00:31:46
Speaker
Whoa, whoa. To be clear. I didn't say that. is how Alan feels. Nick, it was probably because he was British, first off. right You know, thought he was Canadian.
00:31:59
Speaker
i know, you know. Are you? Yeah. was't he kid oh Are you not British? He's Canadian. So British, yeah you know, it might be British Columbia. fuck. Is that a cat on screen?
00:32:12
Speaker
Little nose with a cat? You see the little I got it. Anything. Just a little ear. Just a little ear. ah All right.
00:32:23
Speaker
Well, okay. Let's talk about psychopaths. Yes. Psycho killer. Yeah. so but Yeah. Cradle has issues. issues. Still does.
00:32:37
Speaker
still does i so we kind of I was going to say we kind of suspected this, right? we're like oh after Especially after Love Lost's intro or interlude, we're like, okay, Cradle, was it just him being a bad person who happened to trigger?
00:32:53
Speaker
And he he doesn't have the tragic story that Love Lost and Snag had, or even Rain had. And we find out, oh yeah, no, that is absolutely what it is. And the reason why Love Lost and Snag stopped caring so much about why they hated Rain was because of the bleed through from Cradle being a sociopath and not caring about anyone.
00:33:16
Speaker
So cool. and We should have known. Yeah. I'm actually annoyed at myself that I didn't pick up on that because as soon as he was like, yeah, I don't fucking care. Like I pretended everything. I was like, ah damn it. I watch so much Criminal Minds. I should have seen this coming and I did it and I'm upset at myself for it.
00:33:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. i was I was reading some comments on the interlude because i've I've started reading more comments because I find it interesting. But um one of the comments was talking about how they
Fight Sequences and Thematic Elements
00:33:49
Speaker
did know somebody who was a diagnosed sociopath.
00:33:53
Speaker
And really what it was is kind of like it was for Cradle as they described it as it's far too inconvenient for me to do bad things to people. Hmm. And it's like, i don't really care whether or not I do. It's just more convenient for me to be a person most of the time.
00:34:12
Speaker
But I don't, I'm not a decent person because I want to be, which is just such a weird disconnect. And that's exactly what Cradle was, is he's like, just inconvenient to be a bad person. I'll be a good person. yeah which Which, to be fair, is the ideal politic.
00:34:28
Speaker
Like, you want to essentially establish rules that incentivize your selfishness for public good. So, like, in terms of lawmaking, Cradle is who we should be making laws around.
00:34:44
Speaker
Like, oh yeah, good things. You make it inconvenient to be a bad person. Right. And it's convenient to be a good person. Therefore, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just I I can't imagine dealing with a child like Cradle.
00:35:03
Speaker
Oh, I i don't. Yeah. oh Oh, my God. Because it's always right. Like, as as a parent, ah you're told. Your child is going to cry and throw tantrums, but you need to understand that their emotions aren't as developed. They're not trying to manipulate you. That's just they don't know how to express themselves yet.
00:35:25
Speaker
And yet with Cradle, it feels like that advice would be the worst advice you could give because he literally is. No, I'm going to to yell to see how long and how loud I can yell and whether or not I get what I want at the end of the day doesn't really matter. Like. Oh, oh no. That's crazy.
00:35:44
Speaker
It's like my worst nightmare as a parent. And it's been like, what are you going to do? It's your kid. Like there's, you know, I read you know, a couple of Reddit horror stories about parents having, you know, raised sociopath children and, know,
00:36:08
Speaker
You know, a lot of them end up leaving home early because it's the situation in the house is so untenable. Like the parents essentially have to lock themselves in to stay safe.
00:36:20
Speaker
And. Like, it's just. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously. Yeah. And obviously there are.
00:36:32
Speaker
There are sociopaths and psychopaths who operate perfectly fine in society because they just, you know, they've realized, okay, it's better for me to just behave.
00:36:45
Speaker
And this gets me adverse reactions, so I'm not going to do that. Or they understand that, like, okay, this is an acceptable society, so I'm not going to do that. So there are plenty of psychopaths and sociopaths who exist in our society, and we don't know because they've learned to function within society. Not every sociopath or psychopath is bad.
00:37:06
Speaker
Like, this is such a good showing of the line between, like, I will do everything in my power...
00:37:17
Speaker
To do whatever I want to do. And if that means I have to live a whole life. Pretending to be somebody else. To get what I want. I'll do it. And like that's what he that's what he did. He lived this like. Oh i'm I'm totally fine. He makes friends at the new school. And you know.
00:37:35
Speaker
Acts like he's normal. Because it gets him what he wants. Yeah. And even then though. While he's still acting normal. He's still. manipulating people to behave and the way he wants. He's viewing every relationship transactionally in the sense of I do this for you. I'm investing in you to, so that way one day if I need to call on a favor, I can call on you and you can help me.
00:38:01
Speaker
It's all very like give and take is his mindset. Very calculated. Like the little, I love the little detail with his friend Amanda, Manny, who introduces herself as Manny and then years later goes by Amanda. Why? Because he eventually convinced her, like not like literally convinced her she should go by Amanda, but just over time wore her down to where she would rather just be Amanda than Manny. Yeah. Whatever that means for her, you know? And I'm like, oh, that's.
00:38:28
Speaker
Like that little hint of manipulation. I love that little detail of his character. Yeah. um I also like, i is it obviously it's a facade, not intentionally on his part, but he believes that, oh yeah, I had a system that essentially kept me good um or at least pretending to be good, which, you know, was the easiest for me. But then when I, because of this whole thing and powers, now I can't be because of you and all that.
00:39:03
Speaker
And obviously he was, it anything could have set him off at it that would have all backslid in a second. yeah However, ah like I feel compelled at wait you know at one point in time when we get to the point where he's like telling them about the horrible act he's going to do to these cats. I'm like, okay.
00:39:23
Speaker
In a weird sense, he's gotten to some place where he feels comfortable letting that out to these two people that he considers...
00:39:35
Speaker
like It is so close to like almost friends because he even says like, they're people's yeah come friends. And that like, even though he manipulates them and so, you know, to some degree, he enjoys their company. That's why he kind of manipulates them. The way he does is he likes being around these people. And it's given that they hang out like that.
00:39:59
Speaker
It's enough that, you know, when this happens, obviously they kind of fall out of touch and whatnot, but like he was on some weird, you know, steps to get to some point.
00:40:13
Speaker
Um, you know, he had friends. He felt comfortable them telling them this. ah Obviously, it did not go well. um And ultimately, fine, you know, we realized through him getting powers that he did not break that cycle of being a super shitty person.
00:40:34
Speaker
um But there was, like, hope there. Like, that's the success story. Like, I was a shitty kid. i learned that these are the rules of the world. And, like,
00:40:45
Speaker
how things try to be better learn to function within them. And while I can't feel the way you feel, I can do my best to, you know, do things like be honest about stuff and do these things because that's what like a deeper friendship requires.
00:41:04
Speaker
And that level of vulnerability blew up in his face because ah maybe start off with like, hey guys, I have sociopathic tendencies, I'm trying to work through that. And then you work up to telling them maybe you one time tried to strangle or drown some cats.
00:41:23
Speaker
Yeah. kind of i also think I also think that there's there's a sense of like, even though even and even though you don't you know want to Even though you have sociopathic tendencies, like that doesn't stop you from wanting to be part of something or stop you from wanting to feel accepted or loved, you know, in a way by other people, whatever that means for Cradle specifically. But like the idea of I think also by telling them about the cat thing, being vulnerable, but also kind of like
00:41:58
Speaker
looking to see what the response is and kind of like, okay, well, if I told you my deepest, darkest secret, which this isn't it, obviously, ah because he didn't actually do any of the cat killing.
00:42:11
Speaker
he's He's literally, this is a softball pitch. It doesn't feel like it, but this is his softball pitch. Of, yeah, I thought about drowning cats. I didn't, but I thought about it.
00:42:22
Speaker
To see what the reaction's gonna be. Because you wanna know if you're... wanna know how far I can push this. yeah Almost like... Not to like...
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah, to like try the boundaries. Because we've seen that we see that with Cradle talking about how he grew up. like He pushes the boundaries because he can, because he wants to, because he wants to see how far people will go before they break. Very scientific, in a way.
00:42:48
Speaker
yeah and I think there's another one of those tests, just to see, like, well, what are you going to do? are going to do about it? And that can be a pattern with abusive and manipulative people. Can be, where it's I'm going to draw you in with the positive and then I'll slowly reveal bits of my real self to you. But by that point, you'll be bonded to me enough that you won't want. You'll be invested enough. You'll be invested enough. um Cradle kind of jumps the gun and maybe goes too far, but that is a pattern that can be seen um in some relationships like that, where it's that slow revealing of who you really are while still trying to maintain those connections. But I do agree. On the other hand, um it seems like he was maybe trying to do better.
00:43:37
Speaker
um Seems like maybe his relationship. I mean, the fact that Amanda and the other guy survived the end of the world. Lloyd. but Lloyd. Lloyd survived the end of the world and that he was still somewhat connected to them enough to text them and check in on them.
00:43:54
Speaker
ah You know, I think there's something there was changing. Maybe I wonder, too, you know, we've talked about the emotional bleed through from Cradle because he was such a giver. Right. He gave away his power a lot.
00:44:05
Speaker
um And that was part of how he learned. He learned about the emotional bleed early. But I do wonder was if he ever did receive bits from Love Lost in particular,
00:44:16
Speaker
Was there, did that exaggerate the grief at all of losing his system, right? um Or did the grief from Snag exaggerate that losing? Because it feels kind of irrational that he's like, you broke my system. and I was doing fine.
00:44:30
Speaker
And then you messed it all up. And he, like, Love Lost and Snag were upset about people and things that they lost that mattered a lot. He's upset that his facade fell apart. you know You know, like, it doesn't feel equal. And I wonder if maybe there are some bleed through from the others.
00:44:46
Speaker
That, man, if only they'd gotten a little bit of Reign's power and some of that guilt, maybe they wouldn't have turned into the villains they did. But because they hated him so much, they never would have taken it. so Yeah.
00:44:58
Speaker
yeah I love the Shard names, too. The Shard names in this were really cool. can't remember them. Yeah, very interesting. um But just interesting how they are... What's interesting about the Shards for them is it makes me wonder...
00:45:13
Speaker
are they a typical cluster trigger in that oftentimes cluster triggers seem to be or um one shard broken into multiple pieces? Whereas in this case, it feels almost like these are separate shards coming together to form one unit, if that makes sense. yeah And that might mean that might be why they're unique as compared to other clusters. I don't know.
00:45:39
Speaker
Well, I mean, it sounds like every cluster is unique. And just from the set of powers, I assume that every cluster is shards that essentially all come online together in a pattern. Yeah.
00:45:51
Speaker
Part of yeah greater whole. But those are like, same way that you have a night sky full of stars, but some make constellations. um Sure, sure. And in this case, we even talk about how some of them are...
00:46:03
Speaker
different in like how long they've been around. Cause we've seen some that like shards coming down, finding a moment in time where this person is distressed and like essentially latching on right then and there.
00:46:17
Speaker
Some that are, you know, split off from a parent to a child and essentially sit on that child until, you know, a time is right to activate the power.
00:46:30
Speaker
um Yeah. You know, AKA Victoria. And then in this case, we have one, want to say it's on snag that has been a snag or maybe even a love loss. I forget which one that has been apparently sitting there for a while.
00:46:44
Speaker
Like said, you know, this, this passenger, you know, or shard has been hanging around on this person, just waiting. And the others have kind of shown up more recently or in the moment.
00:46:56
Speaker
So ah the idea that, you know, some people are, have shard powers that are waiting and might not ever activate.
00:47:08
Speaker
um Or potentially, you know, there's a thought that like, what if the shard is trying to lead them into situations that get them?
00:47:19
Speaker
I think it was a cradle shard because it says grasping self is the one that's waiting. It's grasping self. Yeah, that's him. So it's it's cradle shard that's waiting. And that's why his is so much stronger in the sense of knowing about the emotional bleed through and stuff like that and how the dream room works basically. Because from the descriptions, Grasping Self, it seems like it's the one that is sort of creating the connections.
00:47:47
Speaker
ah Because Cradle is Grasping Self, then Anguished Heart would definitely be Love Loss. um Anguished Heart has also written... Wait, no, let me see.
00:48:00
Speaker
ah Yeah, Anguished Heart also has ridden a toast for some time, it says. So I think both of them were kind of in waiting. Yeah. Lurching Intruder, which would be um new, young, and existent, more accident.
00:48:15
Speaker
ah It too reaches out to connect. That would, I would assume, be Snag. And then a Cloven Stranger answers, which I assume would be Rain.
Closing Thoughts and Light-hearted Banter
00:48:26
Speaker
Rain. yeah ah Bernard, to answer your question, i think this is an up-in-the-air thing um because of you know the idea that Dany had a shard potentially. you know Maybe some shards lead people into situations. Maybe some just hang around. It seems like each shard, you know according to their power, has somewhat of a personality in terms of how they operate. So this could be a by the shard. Each shard does do different things, just like every cluster has a different way the powers are distributed. You know, um I wonder if each cluster, though,
00:49:04
Speaker
perhaps more than just some sort of mass incident happening, require a shard that is connection-based
00:49:19
Speaker
to form connections. ah Yeah, that would make sense. I don't know what that would be for, like, the goddess cluster or... or other things like that.
00:49:34
Speaker
But, um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, Francis. Yeah. It was, there was one writing Danny and essentially it went to Taylor instead.
00:49:44
Speaker
Um, because he had friends in a support group that kept him stable. Um, bless yeah, why you need good sample with you close by We often, we know they like to ride DNA.
00:49:55
Speaker
and they, you know, are okay. Jumping DNA strands. Um, So like, it makes sense to just kind of hang around a family and perhaps one person in the family, you know, has it. And then it just jumps to another person.
00:50:09
Speaker
um Yeah. You know, what it's yeah to say like, love lost daughter could have been the one that was like the carrier. And then eventually, you know, jumped over to love lost because she was in more dangerous situations or something like that.
00:50:26
Speaker
yeah Um, and then, Fran also points out, um, was like, perhaps cause it's post gold morning. That's why there's is a little more unique or something possible. Like said, each one has its own weird thing. Um, you know, cause part of it, yeah.
00:50:42
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it's all it's all very unique. Part of it to do with this one may be that um with the connection, like like we've talked about, sort of the network hub has been lost. It makes me think, you know, grasping self was a a connection-based shard, it sounds.
00:51:00
Speaker
And so it's grasping for that network system, kind of like what we talked about before. yeah um It wanting to have that network. So it makes sense that a shard like that would create a ah create a group cluster. Sort of like how he made the egg around him.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. exactly a question with that in mind too, are Colton Love Lost dead? Are they dead? They sounded dead-ish, but not quite totally dead.
00:51:32
Speaker
don't believe they are. be Okay. they're in They're in cluster heaven. Well, not even there. well no not even there But the reason I ask is because when Cradle wakes up and he's like screaming, um it describes the, you know, he's been draining blood from, he's covered in the blood of Lovelost Colt. He's been draining blood from them this entire time without them really, like while they were unconscious, he set it up so that would happen. yeah And he's been doing it for a while, it sounds like.
00:52:07
Speaker
um So he gets this big power boost, but it sounds like, They're diminished but not quite dead. But then later, because ah later there's a line where they say we've captured all the members of your cluster. Like you're the last one who's free, basically.
00:52:22
Speaker
So it makes it sound like there's more than one. Like, I don't think they'd say we've captured everybody if they they make cradle. You know, I'm pretty sure they were just slightly drained. I don't think they were dead yet. They weren't dead yet. Okay.
00:52:34
Speaker
Just mostly dead. Mostly dead. Yeah. Not all dead. Just mostly dead. That's mostly dead. and Yeah, Francis is not dead yet.
00:52:47
Speaker
Yet? Come on, man. I'm not dead yet. Not yet. One more question before we move on. from Bernard.
00:53:00
Speaker
um did Paris and the other villains get the so so sociopathy from Cradle or is this an excuse? ah Excuse.
00:53:13
Speaker
Mostly excuse. I think it think it's an excuse. Yeah, I don't think. Like, ah i mean, maybe. Like, if you had if you have emotion powers, why wouldn't you use them?
00:53:24
Speaker
But. Yeah. ah But I just, it just doesn't.
00:53:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's the. paris Paris deserved everything that he had coming to him. This is a bad head man. Well, what I will say too, right? Is it's, um, to compare it to another situation, there may be a lot of social pressure to do certain things that does not ultimately, morally, or I would say legally excuse you from being the one responsible. Right.
00:54:01
Speaker
Um, yeah Sort of the following orders is not a good excuse for committing a crime. or You know, you can be under great duress. You can be under great stress. And in this case with Cradle, I think there is definitely a possibility that the better parts of these characters maybe were dampened by his sociopathic emotion power.
00:54:22
Speaker
However, they still chose to associate with Cradle in the first place. yeah And, um you know... I don't give them as much of the benefit of the doubt in that case, I would say.
00:54:35
Speaker
Also, because it does show like they managed to get through to Blue Stock and others, and they're like, yeah, you're right. We yeah like we don't like you guys, and we so we're still villains, but we don't want to work for Cradle anymore. like This is messed up.
00:54:47
Speaker
So, yeah. No excuse for those who suck with Cradle, I'd say. yeah Got it. Do you want to move on to 12.6? sorry, eatand Do we throw 7, 8, 9 together? feel like we almost could. We could do 7 and 8 and then end with 9. I have a lot for 9 and I have basically nothing for 7 and 8.
00:55:10
Speaker
yeah Let's throw 7 and 8 together and then we'll do 9. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds good. and all right Alright. 12.7. Cradle ambushes the team and the fight continues. Victoria takes charge and shapes up her teammates, but Cradle hacks the portal lock.
00:55:29
Speaker
12.8. The battle continues on all sides. The team bickers amongst themselves. Cradle confronts Rain. Victoria struggles against the Mega Karpus mech. Cretan traps everyone in his maze.
00:55:41
Speaker
Brandish is injured.
00:55:48
Speaker
My one note for 12.8 is Cradle is a motherfucker. because That's one of my notes, at least. um Yeah, so... It was a good fight. i Yeah, I liked it.
00:56:00
Speaker
yeah My 12.7 note is Victoria getting pissed off at everybody because of the love lost effect. And it just summed up by shut the fuck up and lock the fuck in. yeah yeah Literally though. Yeah. yeah I'm glad she did that. That is Rain. I don't need Mitch Boy McGee giving me shit. so You can shut the fuck up.
00:56:24
Speaker
yeah And both of you, Damsel, Swan Song, you can both shut the fuck up. And Mom, you can double shut the fuck up. Get it. Tell him. Sveta, I don't need this from you now.
00:56:36
Speaker
And then it was like, yeah but what about me? You're fine. Yeah. so like You're doing great. You've done never done anything wrong. Keep at it. Everybody else lock in. Byron, yeah how are you doing?
00:56:46
Speaker
I can't switch because, you know I think he's in pain, but otherwise we are good. It's like, keep it up. Byron, great job. Everybody else lock in. Lock in, damn it. So you're doing great. Oh, thanks. she's like And she's like, and Sveta and Sveta's like, are going to yell at me now? And she's like,
00:57:07
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. When I tell you to move, move. There was a lot in this chapter. Speaking of Sveta, there's a lot. And I don't know if it was just recently or if she said it before and i just never really realized, but she called Sveta her best friend like several times in this arc.
00:57:24
Speaker
And it felt like... make you nervous, Jacob? A little bit. Because that made me nervous. It still makes me nervous. Yeah. But i was like, Here's my best friend who's about to retire. No! My best friend and her longtime super committed boyfriend. Yeah.
00:57:43
Speaker
That made me so nervous. But in that, this is where the fight was... Fight for me up until 9. I forget, Nick, you didn't read 9, did you? I didn't do 9, no. Okay.
00:57:56
Speaker
Up until here feels like fluff fighting to me. like We had our fight to get into the portal. We had our sneaking around. i really didn't need this. Like, this just...
00:58:08
Speaker
Eyes glaze over when I read this. And then we get to finally one of the best fight openers slash, like, it's not even the dynamics of the fight. It's the visual, like, scene.
00:58:25
Speaker
um It comes in nine, but the rest of this I'm just ah unimpressed with the fight. Yeah. I mean, I was grateful... go ahead and Go ahead, Jacob.
00:58:35
Speaker
I was was going to say, it was it was cool. i did like seeing ah Brandish and um what's... Moose? Oh, never mind. What's his cape name? I'm drawing a blank. Flashbang. Flashbang. It was cool seeing them work well and like in action.
00:58:55
Speaker
Because you know that they just had years of of fighting together. So that was I kind of liked seeing them. i like cominging up and Not this time around, but the time before where he has like three real flash bangs and a fake one that he like gives her and she like one, two, three when she like lands and then goes back in the ball and like the the fourth one like lands at some guy and he just like, ah, and it does like, just doesn' it doesn't go off.
00:59:19
Speaker
Yeah. Great power. Bam, bam, dud. They're like, okay. Yeah. Little things like that are cool. um I feel like thud has a really neat power, sort of the s kinetic for like I've been watching Avatar so kinetics bending basically like where he's just like I can move my body exactly as hard or like precisely as I need to it's a very yeah unique yeah yeah power I just thought it was like there was a lot of really cool fight moments with that specifically of them trying to figure out how to overcome that um Creighton of course is also still one of my favorites I love the maze thing really cool so fucking cool um
00:59:58
Speaker
um And then, yeah, Brandish gets injured in 12-8. That was where we see Victoria. somebody Somebody said it better, maybe, but something to the effect of, you see, Victoria, this is why it's important that you explain your force field's boundaries are different than they used to be.
01:00:19
Speaker
Yeah. Because otherwise you might grab your mom. is why we need to communicate.
01:00:26
Speaker
I mean, I, I, yes. And also it it, I think the end of that with her mom getting hurt and the beginning of the next one is like the peak of a couple arcs now.
01:00:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, I will agree going into 12, nine with Brandish having been injured. And then we'll get into 12, nine in a second the way that starts. I'm just like, that felt like unlike the,
01:00:54
Speaker
March thing we'll get to later. This felt like the good kind of the rug pulled out of me in the sense of like, yeah, God, are they going to lose a again? Like they so far and so close and they're just going to lose again. Again, freaking again.
01:01:10
Speaker
So, yeah, yeah. So that was good. But I can kind of agree that a bit of fluff fighting, but it's fun. Like, I don't mind the fluff fighting because I like seeing the different powers being used. I know. Fluff fights are what got me had in the first place.
01:01:24
Speaker
yeah If it hadn't been broken up with um the pep talks in between and the like just creativeness. Because anytime you have a fight where it feels creative or we're utilizing powers in new ways or we're combining two capes to like work together. Like Moose and ah fucking Flashbang working together on a couple things here and there. I enjoy that. Oh my god. i Okay, look, I i know, i know, my voice cracked a little bit. I know that Moose is a villain.
01:01:56
Speaker
I think, I think that he got along pretty well with Victoria's parents, which is always a really fun one. Is that a positive or a negative? Well, okay. He got along with her dad. That's a positive. And saved her mom. Didn't have to get along with her. I like how this is going. Building goodwill. You know. I just think.
01:02:24
Speaker
building goodwill you know um just think like Okay, yes. i There's nothing. Okay, listen, y'all know. i love a good smut book. ah We love a good enemies to lovers. Did we already give a name for them? Did we already say Aunt Laurie's already? Aunt Laurie's. That was one, yeah. Aunt Laurie's.
01:02:46
Speaker
But i I just, I love the idea of like she mauls his face and she's like, I'm really sorry. And he's like, my mom cried. And she's like, no. And then brings up later. yeah Yeah, like, that's such good banter. Like, i i don't don i don't know, man. He's so nice.
01:03:05
Speaker
feel like we can do something with this. I love the dad, like he like, here, you know, throws him the grenade, and he's like, ugh. Like, ugh! just think it's fun. i i know that He's very Cronk-coded, I feel like, as a character. where He's horrible. He's a bad guy. coded you But he knows it. like He's not that dumb, though. he's like He knows exactly how intelligent or lack of intelligence he has.
01:03:30
Speaker
Yeah. and ah Also, shout out to his powers. that he like I didn't realize he had the extra bit of kinetic or like a shockwave thing. So it almost has the Leviathan like a water shadow, but with like kinetic force where he like, wah, and then also some force comes out from it.
01:03:49
Speaker
You know? Yeah. He's got that strong, like, I punch so hard into the air that like the concussive wave from my fist you know caused the the air to push you backwards kind of vibe from anime and shit.
01:04:04
Speaker
Yeah. Ugh. Yeah. I just, i i know, I know Boe.
01:04:11
Speaker
doesn't really do a lot of that. You know, but he could, but he could, but he could anyways. It's fine
01:04:23
Speaker
it's not a big deal. right. I'll just hold out hope for forever. 12.9. Anything else? Yeah, let's do it. We need to. Yeah. All right. If I might set the C out, Nick, Nick, you read it. Go ahead. but Okay. If I might just set the scene,
01:04:40
Speaker
We've just whipped out the wretch to fight off against the mega carpus two. huh In doing so, her mother gets mauled by her power, but she uses her weird aura that is just essentially a bunch of grasping hands to fight off a giant hand and grasping hands.
01:05:10
Speaker
Like she's got like has the fingers and stuff. And it's this like her on the ground, like trying to take step by step to like move her aura forward as like all the hands are fighting each other. And he's like up there doing his teleport, you know, upside down around to the different parts of the hand.
01:05:29
Speaker
It's the wretch versus the cradle, the great handoff. you know, the the battle of the century. And it is this is like thematically should be the fight.
01:05:43
Speaker
Like it doesn't, it it lasts for a decent bit, but like this is the fight. It's hand versus hand combat.
01:05:55
Speaker
Like, I don't, ah, it's so, it's so good because it really is just, them doing the like I'm to move a step forward I'm you know pushing back and forth and that's all it kind of is but it's so intense I love this fight um or this I'm not even going to call it a fight this contest of will almost um And I think that like this image of them going off against each other like that should be what more of the fights are.
01:06:29
Speaker
It's kind of, like and granted it's a little bit samesy, but like thematically, this is what makes the second March foil fight interesting is we finally know kind of what March is about and we know what foil is about and we're having them butt heads finally.
01:06:48
Speaker
And unfortunately, i don't feel like we get that for a lot of the fights. And so they hit flat. And, you know, it is an added depth more than the worm fights were.
01:07:03
Speaker
like it's the worm fights weren't really thematically all that important. They were just, you know, or they were to Taylor exclusively, but these feel like a clash of ideologies and, you know, Taylor, who's constantly trying to grasp out to people to get help, which is why she succeeds. And him who's constantly grasping people to use people, which is why he fails. Like, know, This is the ideological battle. It is the most important battle we've had so far. And the rest kind of, I feel, fall flat compared to this.
01:07:35
Speaker
Even though it's not the coolest, I think it is. Yeah, no, its it's a great fight. I do think, too, this is one of the rare times where having it be hero versus villain feels right.
01:07:48
Speaker
Whereas with Taylor, it's villain versus villain most of the time, right? It's mostly about... Like, Taylor versus Coyle is one of the biggest fights, and I feel like it does work thematically. But you never quite feel it as, this is the good guy trying to finally defeat the great big bad.
01:08:06
Speaker
But you do get that in Ward because you are on the good guy side, right? You're with Victoria, you're with Rain, you're with the heroes, and you're thinking, finally, we're going to get some of these bad guys. Like, even going back to 12.8, we kind of skipped over it, but Paris getting the shit kicked out of him is so satisfying.
01:08:24
Speaker
Yes. Because it is like, it's it's that righteous indignation of like, finally this asshole gets what's coming to him. Yeah. You know. Finally. um Yeah. and And it does fit here well with Cradle too.
01:08:37
Speaker
um It being Victoria versus Cradle is a good climax. So let's get into 12 point line. And I can i can read. yes please. the Please read it. Go for 12.9. Rain is almost forced to give himself up.
01:08:54
Speaker
A last minute plan ends the battle with Cradle and his army. The cavalry arrives and Cradle is forced to give up the fix for his maimed victims.
01:09:06
Speaker
Sheesh. Oh, man. this may Yeah. So this is the rug pull moment that I loved where it was like, she's like, he's like, all I want is rain. Give me rain and I'll leave you alone. Like I won't kill everybody here.
01:09:20
Speaker
Victoria's like, all right. Rain. Even Rain's like, what the fuck? Wait, wait a minute. Wait, really? bless But then is it's Sveta, right? She's like the rug pull moment where she's like, get him. And Sveta just like whips Cradle off of his mech.
01:09:40
Speaker
Oh, she's like it's a b she does double pull, too. She like... like thing Yeah, they do the thing. she She grabs him, pulls him out while whipping herself into the like mech area.
01:09:54
Speaker
And because instead of getting, you know, G-forces rocked out of him, he can just who stop and drop. like nothing because of his momentum ability. And then to tie it all together, she uses her grab everything ability.
01:10:09
Speaker
Because yeah what do you do with the person who's all over the place and you can't predict where they're gonna go? You just grab every place they can go all at once, which we know we she can do because all the way back at the capture the flag thing, it all comes back, which is once again, why this is the greatest fight scene we've had so far. Because we haven't had that cool ability. Like, oh yeah, we learned this and now we can do that. Like special attack moment. And this feels like that.
01:10:34
Speaker
Like it's the, like you said, it's the rug pull of like the, oh, we tricked him and we did this. And when then we used our abilities and then he escapes and like, and and does the like, oh, I'll let my buddy get healed.
01:10:50
Speaker
so that I can escape, use the maze to like throw them off so that I can escape. But that doesn't matter because when you did that, you opened the portal, which let Lookout track the the the signal so that we know how to turn it all off so that you go through the portal and you land and you're like, oh, and then, you know, the cops are there. They're like, oh, I'm the mayor. and You've been a very bad boy. They're like, no. You got me.
01:11:15
Speaker
Like it is the most end of mission impossible movie. It was. Moment. The switcheroo, the fake out, the reveal, like the reveal. Oh, we recorded you the whole time. Like the walls fall away. Yeah.
01:11:34
Speaker
I'll go. Like I said, not outright what you think is the coolest. This is the best all around fight scene because of everything. It was really fun. God damn.
01:11:46
Speaker
It was a good fight. All right. I didn't think this was going to be the best fight scene. Take a breath. Take a breath a moment. I'm going to take a walk. I'm going to take walk. You go. Okay. No, don't take a No, no, no. All right. Okay.
01:11:59
Speaker
I can't hear you. Now that Alan said everything. This fight sucked. Yeah. terrible We all hated it we just wanted allen it. We just wanted Alan to get it out of his system.
01:12:12
Speaker
I thought was fun. I really enjoyed that. Yeah. right yeah Okay, what did what were ya y'all's thoughts on the cops showing up? Citrine showing up at the end for the final arrest.
01:12:27
Speaker
I like Citrine. Yeah. It's always fun to see her. It was kind of i felt a little out of place, but I also kind of chalked it up to maybe me just kind of missing something a little bit with the buildup to that.
01:12:41
Speaker
but maybe not. i think that's soluble I think this is where maybe the break hurts us a little bit because it it does make sense. Victoria had been calling for help and I think the Harbingers had been requesting more backup.
01:12:55
Speaker
And then 12-7, off portal cradle shuts off the portal So what it it, if we had gotten a glimpse of outside the portal, I think it would have helped of the sense of like, Hey, we've Citrine is here with like three other Harbinger clones. We're about to come in Victoria. And then, you know, portal shuts off, you know, cradle does the whole you're stuck in here with me now kind of thing. Yeah.
01:13:21
Speaker
Um, And so i think I think if we'd seen that, but they were coming, so it makes sense that when the portal opens back up, yeah they're like, we've been waiting the whole time. yeah yeah i like because they make the call, we kind of forget about it in the heat of the moment, and then they're there, and we're like, that's right, they called for help.
01:13:42
Speaker
ah yeah It felt... It did feel a bit out of place, though. Like, of all of the people we've been calling to get help, Citrine feels so... outside of the normal group of people that would have showed up to help. ah Just because, like, she's the mayor now She's got mayor shit to do. And she's been helping, but she's been helping in the sense of, like, sending the harbingers and giving the go-ahead for murdering people and giving the okay and the numbers and the info. But she's... It feels like a very...
01:14:17
Speaker
All right, go, angels. Hack the whatever, you know, as opposed to, like, yeah helping and being there. So that felt a little off for me. Like, i i love Satrine. I think she's great. Anytime she's in the field, hell yeah.
01:14:31
Speaker
And more Harbingers? to Fuck yeah, I love the Harbingers. I think they're fantastic. Bring them on in. It did feel a little, like, of all the extra people to have shown up, that didn't feel like the people I expected. i kind of expected, um...
01:14:48
Speaker
Fuck, what's her cousin's name? Laser Dream. Yeah, I kind of expected like maybe Laser Dream and yeah some other people of that caliber ah category even and less like Citrine because that's kind of a big big jump but I mean i guess not but it just felt a little off to me.
01:15:14
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of like it, though, because Citrine is the mayor. It does feel more like those the cops are here here a moment. Whereas if it had been another hero group, it would have just been like, oh, more of the same. ways Yeah, exactly. Citrine is the like, it's like, oh, no, you you made the president mad.
01:15:32
Speaker
that's a big deal. You made the president mad enough to come visit you in person. Yeah. yeah And as Jamie points out, it's like a culmination of all the connections that Vicky has been trying to form. Yes. Finally paid off like this whole network. I mean, the Harbingers being there, which, you know, small shout out to them being like, can we like, you know, keep doing, can we do it? Can we do the thing? And she's like,
01:15:58
Speaker
You can, no hurting people, except for Barfbat. He heals from bullets, so go fucking nuts. Yeah. yeah So I love that, what is that, this is a side note, but the little interaction they have with one of the um the heartbroken, and they're like, you can't kill them. And they're like,
01:16:15
Speaker
Got it. And then one of the heartbroken is like, not 99% Yeah. able to feel from a in a like and they're like Yeah. yeah they were like One point in time, they were like, you shot out his eyes. like Like, it's fine. He's not dead. like yeah you He's not dead. He's not even really that hurt. like He's just missing his eyes. We just you know? He'll be fine. Keep He birded him? There
Pacing Differences: Worm vs Ward
01:16:46
Speaker
we go. See, if they tailored him, they would have rotted off his junk. But, you know yeah yeah see taylor Taylor would have had no qualms.
01:16:56
Speaker
But over so quick. Yeah. ah ah That's the other thing. I'm constantly surprised at how long everything takes. Like it feels, it doesn't feel like it took that long last time. Why why did this whole thing after Cradle feel like three times as long as Taylor trying to like the Slaughterhouse Nine?
01:17:21
Speaker
Back when we were reading Worm, we were like, oh my gosh, she's so so overpowered. what How is she taking out dragons and shit by herself? And now we're like, they're not taking out anything.
01:17:33
Speaker
Like it's, yeah, it's very different. It is also, will never be satisfy which to be fair, to be fair to our past selves, we did often talk in worm about how fast it felt like everything happened.
01:17:46
Speaker
That's what I'm saying. why yeah True. Like, you know what? 2020 though. I want more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh
01:17:58
Speaker
yeah yeah oh boy. I'm just funny though. tell me All right. Yeah. Good times. Well, all's well that ends well, which brings us back to 12.9.
01:18:11
Speaker
ah twelve point nine ah point nine 12.9. 12.9, which I do just want to say in the table of contents, Wildbow has subtitled Best Dad.
01:18:24
Speaker
Is what the interlude is subtitled as. That's really cute. i mean, yes. So, 12.9 Interlude Dauntless.
Dauntless Interlude and Power Accumulation
01:18:35
Speaker
Sean triggers and saves a life. Shows his life in the PRT in the preparation for Leviathan. It reveals Dauntless' time in the bubble.
01:18:47
Speaker
The Harbingers explicate to break through and explain everything. Meanwhile, Sean meets his son and the Simmer sings him a lullaby. Oh.
01:18:58
Speaker
Oh. Just as as a quick what as a quick timeline thing. What? i'm pulling a I'm pulling a Hannah here.
01:19:10
Speaker
ah Did he get time bubbled during the Leviathan fight? And if so, okay. Wasn't it? no it yeah It was during the Leviathan fight. But then who was... One of the bombs. The bombs. That's what it was. yeah the but one of bau okay They were trying to use them on Leviathan. Leviathan saw the attack coming and knocked Dauntless and the other two characters. That's what it was. it was i mean to be a wck them I was trying to remember. I was like, where did that happen? Taylor sees, but I'm not 100% sure if she did or not. Either her or Tattletail from the helicopter.
01:19:46
Speaker
Yeah, one of the two saw it. I think it was Taylor, but, i you know, let's not trust Hannah's memory. ah Also, Fran, for the record, Pact is not faster.
01:19:58
Speaker
I don't know if we're talking about chronologically, but in terms of how fast it moves, boy howdy is it slow. um Anyways. And Bernard, yes, this is where the Titan gets revealed a couple times in the last two arcs.
01:20:15
Speaker
Yeah. oh yeah again So but we now have Titan daunting Dauntless. Titan Dauntless. Yeah. Yeah. so man. See, again, i feel like interludes are just where Wild Boat shines so much in a way.
01:20:32
Speaker
Because it explains why there's this explosion of power. Because it literally is every day Dauntless had to decide what to do with his excess power.
01:20:44
Speaker
He's in a time bubble for, you know, Lord knows how long, just power, power, power, power but nothing really happening. And then it all comes due all at all at once when the time bubble breaks.
01:20:55
Speaker
yeah
Nostalgia for Epic Endbringer Fights
01:20:56
Speaker
Yeah. Man, that's crazy. it's It's, yeah, no, it's, it's very well written. I love, I love the interludes. oh I'm sorry, Fran. I've been reading pale, pale moves really slow. Pact did move faster to the point where it was really stupid, but we'll get to that one day when we read that. Oh my God. You're right. He does. The main character does not know a single moment of peace. You are correct.
01:21:24
Speaker
I can't wait. Good gravy. How exciting. How exciting for us. um Yeah, no, he he knows how to write an emotional backstory, that's for sure.
01:21:36
Speaker
yeah Wow, I felt it so hard. I loved it. ah So nostalgic being back at an Endbringer fight. Like, I don't think I realized how much I missed the Endbringer fights.
01:21:50
Speaker
so cool And Endbringers as a whole. And Brockton Bay as a whole. And just how things used to be until reading this and being like, oh, fuck, man. I remember when it used to be like this and the wards and they're going out and it's Brockton Bay and Miss Militia and Arms Master before he was Arm Master. And like, just, oh, what a time. And then it's, oh, man. I gotta say, ah i really miss...
01:22:19
Speaker
having endbringers in the world yeah there was something about yeah the early reading i remember reading a worm for the first time and just kind of knowing in the back of your mind that there was always that larger threat because they kept hinting towards it hinting towards it and of course you get the leviathan fight pretty early on comparably And it's like, okay, they are just, none of this matters. Like, they're all just at the mercy of whatever these creatures are doing. And it's something that I felt Ward has been lacking, which is why I feel like I've clung so hard to these, like, other threats. Like, oh, where's the machine army? Yes! Oh my gosh, yes. What, you know, what is what's going on, are you know, what's... some
01:23:07
Speaker
ah Valkyrie you know fighting against that kind of stuff. I like i need that that and that just monstrosity that's looming in the background. so
Dauntless' Backstory and Motivations
01:23:18
Speaker
yeah it's It's an interesting comparison.
01:23:21
Speaker
Yeah, like Alan was saying earlier about the whole in Worm things are like getting bigger and like we're going to the next layer and going to the next layer and going to the next layer. We're in Brockton Bay and then all of a sudden it's Brockton Bay and the rest of you know, the world as it slowly grows and grows and c grows. and And until now, it's multi-universes. And like, I just, i love that that's it's so cool. It feels like we're growing so big.
01:23:48
Speaker
And then Ward is, we're back small again. And it doesn't feel like it matters now that we've seen the whole world. Like, how can I care about a fucking neighborhood watch program when when we know that giant worlds exist and when we've been teased about the robot army and, like, you you're going to show us that and then you're going like, okay, back to this now. It's like, I don't care about this, to be honest. like i'm It's a struggle for me to feel engaged with this and care about any of it. When i when you, like...
01:24:26
Speaker
Not three years ago. it was the whole universe. And now it's we're back to neighborhood watch again. I'm like, I don't want to. What what is this? Tearing out my heart. We've got a new Endbringer now. So maybe.
01:24:40
Speaker
you know some no, no, no, no. We've got a new Summit now. Don't put that out there. I don't need that. I will say, though, on the other hand, on the other hand i think I think kind of like Alan alluded to, it's not so much even...
01:24:55
Speaker
that we've lost those big threats in the background is that we don't know how they touch our heroes. and yeah like They don't feel relevant. um you know The Machine Army is interesting in concept, but i mean as far as I can feel in the story, it doesn't exist. What would feel what I think would have felt better maybe would be more focus on like moving powers within Earth Shiite. Moving...
01:25:23
Speaker
you know, what's going on there? Like, who are the movers and shakers there? Maybe getting a peek at Goddess's world before she arrived so we could see, like, oh, why is it so scary that Goddess is here? Oh, this is why. Like, we saw her already.
01:25:37
Speaker
um And all that to say, though, this is a great interlude, getting back into the into that same mindset and seeing, again, the Leviathan fight from another angle.
01:25:47
Speaker
His whole thing of, like, his son being like, well, what if you just held off on this one and, you know, built up more power for the next one? And he's like, yeah, say that for every Endbringer fight.
01:25:59
Speaker
But this is the one and there's no place I'd rather defend more than than you in my home. And I'm just like, oh, my heart. Oh, that hook me up. Yeah. I mean, even the I'm just oh, I'm just so glad his son is alive. Like, that's all I needed. Oh, me just my God. I'm so relieved. Yeah. Oh, really? Happy family. Like, oh.
01:26:20
Speaker
Got a wife and a baby on the way Connecting with, you know, Kelly's old mom and stuff like that, whatnot.
01:26:32
Speaker
Was understanding that he was getting like just omniscient with knowledge? Yes. Yes, he was putting it into his ah helmet to like be able able to sense outside the bubble.
01:26:45
Speaker
Yeah. And like, because otherwise he's really trapped there. Um, you know Unlike other
Power Development and Media Depictions
01:26:51
Speaker
people who probably just have stuff move by really, really fast, he's, or you know I'm not exactly sure, it seems like he's him putting po you know power into it allows him to process what's going on. um Yeah, because he seems to be seeing every day as every day, not it passing by in a blur, which it does at first.
01:27:14
Speaker
Right. ah like he's and that's why it feels like it's taking forever because it is it's four fucking years or longer isn't it yeah technically about four years i think ish four years i mean from when he gets hit yeah because there's at least two years and then another two years between worm and ward yeah yeah so um no uh watches the world be destroyed from his little bubble you know it's crazy i'm sure yeah um and And to potentially not even know why necessarily because we don't know how much, you know, just the world ended and you're like, oh, but then people are back and you're like, oh, thank God, you know. um Not for very long.
01:27:54
Speaker
Just starting out because took me a second. i didn't I don't think I realized that he triggered while he was giving an emergency C-section. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
01:28:05
Speaker
I thought for some reason he already had that power, but then I was like, oh, wait. No, no, that was him. Like, yeah, that's, that's crazy that that's where you get that power from.
01:28:18
Speaker
Like we have other people doing other things to get powers and his is from giving an emergency C-section in a mudslid van. Oh boy. That is certainly one of the most unexpected ones of all time.
01:28:31
Speaker
um yeah Yeah. That's the story. Damn. Yeah, because he has that moment where he she's like talking to him and then he zones out and we kind of get a bit of like the typical trigger thing and then she's like, are you okay? And he's like, yeah. i i mean yeah He kind of zones back in. It did feel like maybe he was just zoning out for a second, but then you realize, oh no, that was when yeah iking he got that power to and invest power into objects. Yep.
01:28:57
Speaker
He saw the worms. Yeah. But, you know, and it's one of those weird things where like the way his power works, you would assume because of like, I don't know, the more combat with putting it into armor and swords and stuff like that, you expect it to be Chevalier who was like a vigilante kid making weapons. Right. Like but ah more more like that, more combat focused. And in fact, his was more like the tool he needed.
01:29:28
Speaker
um and And his whole life is about investing in things, investing in people and in the city and in his position. Like he like once again, just a fantastic job of marrying the power to the to the mindset that the person has.
01:29:47
Speaker
in the world like nobody does a marriage of characters and actions that characters do like as well as wild but it's just my gosh it's so good um
01:30:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, a couple notes from Bernard. Um, I, I couldn't find anything to conclude this. I'd love to hear more or a link, but, uh, Bernard suggests, uh, did wild bow, wild bow planned the Dauntless story since the beginning.
01:30:21
Speaker
Um,
01:30:24
Speaker
I mean, maybe that seems like a very wild bow thing to do. However, that also seems like something you could very easily pull post like, okay, I've got to come up with something. Well, I've got sleeper.
01:30:36
Speaker
I've got like mentions of,
Character Relationships and Dynamics
01:30:38
Speaker
you know, five other things that I can play with essentially. What am I going to do? And maybe he did have it because I'm sure he had mapped out exactly how the powers work in terms of shards. So that would make sense, but it would also be, sounds like it would be pretty easy to come up with whatever you need the next big thing of. yeah Given we have, I mean, you could have done an entire thing where the big bad is goddess and a mega mega cluster coming in um and you having to defeat essentially a Yongbon situation, but it's just goddess. Yeah.
01:31:14
Speaker
um And then Bernard also asked, when we were talking on the Dissecting Worm podcast at one point in time, we were talking about how worm could be adapt adapted into a play and asked, how could you imagine the Dauntless Titan being depicted in a play? Oh my gosh.
01:31:35
Speaker
Well, if you've seen clips of how they did the King Kong musical from a couple of years ago, Some crazy puppetry. Whoa. i'm saying That's cool. of youa yeah Mine would be puppetry.
01:31:49
Speaker
yeah They just lift him up and they slide in a giant foot yeah offstage. basic And that's that's all you can see is like the background is just a foot. It's just...
01:32:01
Speaker
Or everyone's seen the Nutcracker, right? When she gets smaller and the trees and everything gets bigger. When the tree grows? it's so cool! That is pretty great. that's It's a fantastic trick of the eye thing.
01:32:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's great. Really well done. Yeah. I did not realize that that was the Simmer just hanging out on his shoulder singing hit to him.
01:32:27
Speaker
I did not. Sweet lullabies. I did not make that. in his ear And I'm sure they're not. Oh boy. I'm sure they're not enough nothing. See, i i like, I ended this and I was like, Oh, what are we going to do about him now? Like, there he is. He's so big. And he's also like in multiple worlds now. So like yeah he's across dimensions here. Like, okay.
Victoria's Relationship with the Wretch
01:32:50
Speaker
That's, that's, that's certainly interesting. What are we going to do about that? And, and then, and I didn't, I was not feeling, was feeling a sense of foreboding at all and then now I'm like oh no this is gonna be bad oh I've been rereading the uh Watchmen uh graphic novel hell yes and uh there's some like there's some thematic comparisons I feel that you could draw between
01:33:20
Speaker
Dauntless Titan, whatever we're calling him now, and ah and Dr. Manhattan, and just some of the, like, the the incapability of the finite mind to comprehend infinite and kind of what that does. So I'm really curious to see where this goes.
01:33:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
01:33:47
Speaker
ah Uh, Fran just wanted to point out wild bow has a bunch of triggers for characters that don't show up in the story that end up in weaver dice that he randomly drops in potentially on the word of God. I know there's a collection for the word of God, which is wild bows extra, you know, lore stuff that he drops. Um, somebody has put together,
01:34:07
Speaker
I need to go find it in my tabs, but I used to control F if I was interested in any subject, you know, to look up. ah But um I know in that, and mentioned here, that we have Sophia and jack Jack's trigger. Because Jack's is, I believe, he triggered in a bunker with, like, potentially a doomsday prepper, like his dad keeping him down there and trying to escape out.
01:34:29
Speaker
um Wow. Plastic. Yeah. ah ah Jax does get retconned later because, of course, it gets turned more to him getting potentially like locked up by King or something like that.
01:34:43
Speaker
get Yeah. Gets moved over to other things. um And then Truett just said... ah maybe it's just because I've been reading X-Men Claremont comics, but I don't mind all the loose threads. Maybe because I'm not used to it. Just think, oh, this will be brought up later. That is a very comics approach to storytelling. Least things hanging because you never know when you're going need a We'll come back to it in a few issues. helps if you have so many things going on.
01:35:15
Speaker
That makes sense. It makes it lot easier to tie into things if you leave them open.
01:35:23
Speaker
Beefaroni popped in a while ago, but we were in the middle of talking. He said, 12.8, Victoria refers to the wretch as her instead of it.
01:35:36
Speaker
I feel like we should talk about that. noticed Good call out. Hey, that Vic? It is. so interesting What up, Vic? Welcome. Welcome. but Yeah, that's true.
01:35:50
Speaker
That's very interesting. Yeah, maybe i more perhaps we're on the road to a better relationship with. I mean, you have to see somewhere by the end of the story, her reconciling with her wretch in some form.
01:36:06
Speaker
So yeah did do you think the wretch lashing out at her mother was because she's becoming more in touch with the wretch? Yeah, right. Literally lashing out, you might say.
01:36:21
Speaker
Yeah, oh because she's my marrying the two, you know, finally in her mind that she is that wretch. You know, it is also influenced by her emotional state more than just the inanimate, amorphous blob that it was. Yeah.
01:36:40
Speaker
Yeah, maybe. It's interesting. i Which only makes the battle even better. a thread to pull at. Again. they ought to pull that red and yet another thread all right do we well i mean we'll ask more questions about theories later on but um do we want to continue on galex yeah yes yeah well last thing on dauntless i'll say um there was one line in there speaking of evil foreboding One line in there where you know he meets with his he sees they're okay, they spend a couple hours together, and it just says, satisfied, it asks that colonel of Dauntless.
01:37:25
Speaker
I'm like, oh, oh he's he's moving more shard now than man.
01:37:32
Speaker
and because of that storage of power we've talked about needing that network hub, I wonder... is this shard going to try to make Dauntless into some kind of new Scion-type character?
01:37:49
Speaker
No. It does feel, little bit we've had gotten from the shards, and the little bit we've gotten from other interludes, and Valkyrie, and Tattletail, and all these... like It does feel like the shards are attempting to...
01:38:08
Speaker
you know make sense of, of their purpose again. Cause they are, they're still sentient, but they lack, ah they lack an entity. So like they're, they're trying to, yeah, whatever reconstructed or, or reform. Yeah.
01:38:25
Speaker
Interesting. yeah They're a hive mind without the mind. They're just the hive. They're just the hive. It's trying to reconstitute this body into the ultimate saddy. Yeah. what Exactly.
01:38:40
Speaker
Well, on that note, 12.x, shall we? Yeah. Please. The 12.x interlude, Various. Presley tries to calm her parents after the Dauntless Titan appears.
12.x Interlude Events and Implications
01:38:55
Speaker
The kids make themselves alright. Narwhal ruminates on people, places, and events. Damsel of Distress parts ways with Swansong in Breakthrough.
01:39:05
Speaker
March takes time out of her day to kill Foyle, maybe?
01:39:13
Speaker
Now, thank goodness some people told us to read on last week. Otherwise, I wouldn't even thought about this despite me still not reading it till the last moment. Even after I reminded other people to read it.
01:39:26
Speaker
because Because Hannah reminded me. But you did read listened past. i But I did read I was listening. i will tell you guys, I completely forgot about the whole extra thing. And I'm listening to it and the music's going. And I'm like waiting.
01:39:40
Speaker
and waiting, and I'm like, wait, Raina's supposed to jump in here and be like, thanks for listening to the podcast, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah But he doesn't, and the music just keeps going, and I was like, what is happening? And then the music cuts abruptly, and then it keeps going with the reading, and I was like, oh, shit, this is it! This is that fake-out section! And then Al and I went to go get Taco Bell, and we had a whole conversation, and he was like, oh, no, I definitely didn't read that. Okay, I'm gonna text him to make sure everybody knows. Yeah, I only saw it because...
01:40:11
Speaker
I was going to scroll down to read the comments and i was like, oh my God, I can't believe this happened. I got to read the comments on this one. And then I keep scrolling. by oh Oh, wait, there's more. yeah Nice. And it it was because it was put out on April 1st, I believe. So it was the the April. It was supposedly it it was supposed I think it was supposed to be in April Fool's and then it wasn't. But it was. But it wasn't. And while they wanted to but didn't but did it kind of that's at least that's what the comments say. so I'm like, all right. It was like right before April 1st. It's a bit of a bit of a meta joke, too, with like.
01:40:49
Speaker
Oh, moving it out of place. aha yeah um yeah I will say, um before we get, well, i just one more thing on that fake out too. It feels like, whereas the cradle fight was earned, and the rug pull the rugpo moment of like the revelation that letting rain go is part of the plan, this felt more like like like a cheap, you know, like at the beginning of a horror movie, they always have the fake jump scare.
01:41:20
Speaker
like It's just the mom opens the door really fast or, you know, whatever it is. It kind of felt more like that where I'm like, I don't know, it felt a little cheap. And then they woke up from a dream?
01:41:32
Speaker
Yeah, or like, yeah you you know, the character at the beginning of the horror movie has a bad dream and right before they die, they wake up, you know. Oh, you mean when ah when when ah Danny was coil yeah exactly Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right, when Daniel's low.
01:41:49
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. ah I mean, at least that's a bit better. Okay, let's talk about Let's talk about the other stuff first because I feel like we're going to spend a lot of time this. We got to see Presley again. I totally forgot who Presley was. Who the fuck is Presley? Who the hell is Presley? Our best girl.
01:42:08
Speaker
Our best girl. Number one fan. have many best girls. She's breakthrough's biggest fan. Every so one song fan is, except for one is dead, she is the last one.
01:42:20
Speaker
Okay, what did you see, Nick? She's the girl they met on the train who was a big fan of Antares and Swan Song. Yes. yeah Ends up dying her hair to look like Swan Song.
01:42:30
Speaker
Yeah. Bless. See, this is the problem with the ensemble casts. Like, that's such a great little callback. I love it. but She's literally one of the main characters. I was confused because I thought Presley was Bonesaw's real name. And I was like, who the what the hell is Bonesaw doing with the family? oh my god. I didn't look up who Presley was. didn't look up who Presley was because I was so confused. i was like, she feels familiar. I don't think she's Bonesaw, but isn't that Bonesaw's real name? Bonesaw's real name is Riley, I remembered later.
01:43:03
Speaker
I was so confused. um man um i okay Sorry. Chat's saying some interesting stuff real quick before you jump in.
01:43:15
Speaker
wait hold on Hold on. I also saw chat. it's talking They're talking about the last bit. We we we got we need to do the other three parts and then we'll get to the really annoying weird thing at the end with Vista.
Innovations in Portal Technology
01:43:26
Speaker
Okay.
01:43:26
Speaker
Yeah. um So yay for Lookout being decoding. i i love that the slicer was advanced portal technology.
01:43:39
Speaker
like It's all portals. It's all all portals. it's worlds all the world Oh my God. I love I did really like that. I was like, that makes so much sense.
01:43:49
Speaker
I'm so glad that's what it ended up being. It feels a little deus ex machina that it just instantly fixes everybody. But you know what? At this point, we've been dealing with it for so long. I don't care anymore. It's done. It's fine. Whatever. At least everyone's back together.
01:44:03
Speaker
Quite literally. Yeah, exactly. Literally. Yeah. Except Lookout might be joining another team. mom bla No. oh it's Listen, nothing happens until it's happened. That's what i'm I'm convinced. Nothing's happened until I've seen it happen. Apparently, even then, it might not be real. so what you want You don't want the little goon squad?
01:44:23
Speaker
I'd love the goon squad. Don't even get me started. i'm I'm very well aware that the healthy choice is not the heartbroken plus her. Bad. Not good. Not healthy. Not good for any of them. More like doing her squad if you know what I mean. No.
01:44:41
Speaker
No, ah but I want them together anyways. I like their just their brand of dysfunction. I think it's really fun. And I like how well they get along. And I really do think she needs, Kenzie needs some more people that are her age. They of get along. They kind of get along.
01:45:01
Speaker
they kind of get along I feel like the lookout lookout is going to look at chicken little the wrong way and get her nose sliced off or something like oh for sure yes absolutely but but it is a fun it is a fun dynamic I love them all together i think they're great together ah yeah anything else well what's it what happens after that after that is narwhal which I really like yeah
01:45:31
Speaker
Narwhal kind of goes therapist mode in a bit. A little bit. I think she does a very good job, to be honest. It's like a judgy therapist. It's what your therapist thinks but doesn't ever say to you.
01:45:42
Speaker
Kind of, She's like, yeah, that's not going to go well. like And
Narwhal's Role as Therapist
01:45:47
Speaker
she's right, probably, but like yeah obviously she's not going to say that. You've got to come to your own conclusions. She's like, I don't know about that.
01:45:55
Speaker
I know we're all horny for Narwhal. So I just have to point out the one line she has that's not said in a sexual way at all, but is only read that way when she's talking to Foyle.
01:46:08
Speaker
And i want to read it. she's She says, Foyle says, I might stay for a while just to be safe after my assistance if anyone needs it. Narwhal, I could order you.
01:46:19
Speaker
You're not my boss, Foil said, but I could order you. I bet you'd listen. just like Oh my god. I didn't think about that at the time, but you know when you say it like that, I'd listen. him Yes, man! I forgot. You tell me where you want me to stand, too.
01:46:39
Speaker
And has a giant horn. Yeah, yeah. Bless the lord. ah We do like Narwhal. Yep. we do like Lord have mercy, we love Adami mommy.
01:46:50
Speaker
but Yeah, I mean, the only the only negative thing we can say about Narwhal is that she's not team Weld Sveta. Yeah, fuck that shit. She's like mean too, I don't like it. Why is Weld dating that fucking creature? I don't think that was it. I think it was more like when when she calls her a mess, I think she's referring to her issues.
01:47:14
Speaker
like i think I think she's referring to the issues and the fact that she knows that Weld still has a lot of issues that he's just pushed down. Which is what she specifically goes off on as well. She's like, he's got a lot of things that he's working on, but he's too busy working on her stuff instead of his stuff.
01:47:31
Speaker
And they need to be working on their stuff. I do like that she can
Weld and Sveta's Relationship Challenges
01:47:35
Speaker
sort of, she i don't know if it's exactly her power or just the way she perceives things, but like she can see cracks in things, and including like relationships and stuff like that. mean, she has the Shatterpoint specialty from that Mace Windu had.
01:47:51
Speaker
You know, we're going to see the cracks, not just in physical objects that allows them to break them, but also in patterns and in people and what breaks them and in time. Like what moments, if you did something here, would break a situation up.
01:48:07
Speaker
Yeah. um But yet, I mean, Narwhal looks over and is like, yeah, they've got stuff to work out. I see the way Weld looks at others. Obviously, he turned that one girl down. Good for him.
01:48:19
Speaker
But still, there's a lot of issues to work out. He's a loyal... He's a loyal boy. I don't... i will say this this made me upset. So, okay. Obviously, team Sveta and Weld. Obviously.
01:48:33
Speaker
But she's right. Like... And Weld has already talked about how like this isn't like the this maybe isn't what he wants ah in terms of a sexual relationship. And like the whole idea of the reason people get divorced is because they realize that they're not compatible together. And like there are plenty of people who get divorced. They still love each other, but they realize that like this is not going to work for us and what we want out of life. And like...
01:49:04
Speaker
You know, they get divorced and they stay friends, but they find new partners and they find new paths in life. Like, that's normal. What I hate to see is a couple that stays together because they feel like they have to or they've trauma bonded too much to ever leave. And, like, that's not healthy.
01:49:22
Speaker
Obviously, Team Weld, Team Spetta, I think they can figure it out. But if Weld is just staying because... He feels like if he left, then Sveta would be like completely devastated and might do something not good for herself. Like that is no reason to stay in a relationship. Like obviously a relationship goes through hard times where you have to hang on and go through the shit stuff together. But like when your whole relationship is based off of the shit stuff that can get really tough.
01:49:56
Speaker
Yeah. We didn't have a Lala Land moment. kind of realized. A La La Land moment. The end of La La Land. Yeah. yeah yeah you realize Svetal Land, I guess. Yeah. Svetal Land. and Well, i mean I will say though, to Weld's credit, he is still such a good man because Narwhal notices she's like,
01:50:17
Speaker
There is a girl who I think would be good for him. She even approached him, but he said no. He said no, because he's loyal and I love him. He's a sweet boy And also he knows Victoria would kill him. Which good? She should. an ocean Oh, in the Marianas Trench, as she should.
01:50:39
Speaker
Yeah, i yeah it's it's tough. Because, like, Sveta's so sweet. And she's so... Well, obviously, the idea of, like, leaving somebody because they can't meet your physical needs is oh, that's the worst fucking low blow you could do to a person.
01:50:54
Speaker
But at the same time, that's kind of a key part of a relationship. And if you can't come to terms with that... a It sucks!
01:51:08
Speaker
It sucks! And I hate it, and I hate it. I just want them to be able to work it out and be happy, and I just want Sveta to have a body. we just get Sveta a body?
01:51:19
Speaker
It is one of those things that really sucks, but like, and, and, you know, you always talk about what's, what's, uh, feels shallow in a relationship is like, i don't know the fact that you are attracted to somebody's looks often feels shallow, but that's like a component of the relationship and often a very important one. Like that's usually how relationships start is because you're attracted to that person. Like,
01:51:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, but the problem is in this case, you know, them breaking up over it feels shallow. Of course. Yeah. However, it's a very real part of the relationship that they need to yeah work out and maybe it doesn't work out. Maybe it does like, yeah, yeah it is what we might you be small. It still holds up a pillar of the relationship. Yeah.
01:52:09
Speaker
We've had tinkers with so many specialties from plants to bombs to metal. Where is our silicone tinker?
01:52:21
Speaker
For real. For real. i mean To make a body, Alan. Make a body, of course. Yeah, to make a body, of course. Alan, what do you mean? I believe that Shatterbird was a silicone.
01:52:37
Speaker
Silica. very different. That's a mineral. you Yeah. We could, you know, last because i you don't want that. We could do some splitting hairs. Maybe a second trigger there.
01:52:52
Speaker
What? Yeah. And she's very dead. Yeah. what Yeah. well Was Valkyrie around? yeah valkyrie cannot be you're telling me out of valkyrie's whole whole posse you can't find how how does a how does a a a fucking grade s cape with a posse of people not have three super powered individuals that can make a fucking body around here well here's the thing right she's been bitty she's been busy
01:53:24
Speaker
fighting god machines and other planets like sveta needs this though yeah this is more important listen yeah and as bernard points out do you think for a second that sveta is about to let bone saw or red queen make her a body no yeah sveta would not let anybody touch her like that's a no-no where's mannequin when we need well To do, like, I mean, and this yeah this would become the great debate of, like, ah is is her relationship with, a sexual relationship with Weld worth sacrificing that bodily autonomy, you know, even for a little bit, just to have, like, surgery read
Sveta's Physical Body Dilemma
01:54:06
Speaker
done or something. I think she would.
01:54:08
Speaker
You think she would? i think she would because I think she's that desperate for a body. Because, obviously, Amy's the fucking worst. dedoy But obviously much like why Harrell is going to see Amy is that sometimes you need you need a fucking healer.
01:54:25
Speaker
And while we don't trust Amy any farther than we can throw her into a deep dark lake. We can throw pretty far. Into a deep dark lake. ah that it It's still, there is a time where it's like,
01:54:37
Speaker
do you put that aside in order to have what you've, yeah all of your remembered life that you've wanted and to have a renewed new relationship? Like, yeah, we've seen from, she doesn't remember. I think it was right.
01:54:54
Speaker
Who I said, remember? yeah She doesn't remember. Oh yeah. But we've, uh, we've seen from, i think it was Sprite, right? He's the Cape who can borrow powers from people. He's nearby.
01:55:05
Speaker
um So we've seen even what it would look like for her to have a body but retain her powers. So it's not even like out of the theoretical question. It's not like she'd be giving up her abilities theoretically.
01:55:17
Speaker
It would just be figuring out a way to form what she has into a cohesive body. Yeah. um and And the shard would work its way around that. We saw that with Falfor where like it used to be had to make eye contact. Now you just have to hear him because he got his eyes popped out and the shard accommodated that.
01:55:33
Speaker
um yeah ah i I mean, do you think she would still do it? Like Riley, maybe. Bonesaw tough. I think better than a chance than her going to Amy, especially when she is best friends with Victoria. Like not only is that a decision of her doing that for herself, um you know, against her trauma of like Cauldron, but also a slap in the face to her best friend.
01:56:03
Speaker
Okay, well, here's a better question then. Do you think Victoria would hold it, not be mad, because understandably she could be mad, but would hold it against Sveta if Sveta was like, your sister has found a way to give me a body, and we know that this is going to work, and I'm going to take it.
01:56:21
Speaker
Do you think that Victoria would hold a grudge against Sveta for making that decision? Because I don't think she would. I think she don't know that she would hold a grudge. I think that she would question Amy's motives and the body that came out of it.
01:56:36
Speaker
yeah And I think that that could cause a big enough rift in their friendship. yeah i think there was is that like I think it would be a big enough argument that they would dissolve the friendship process.
01:56:48
Speaker
like 90% of the way before she even got the body and then her having the body, they would kind of be standoffish to each other. yeah So like they would nominally be friends and that's about it.
01:57:01
Speaker
Maybe I think better Victoria. yeah i don I feel like she knows her enough to know that like Sveta desperately wants a body. And like, would maybe even go to the stupid extremes in order to get one. I i would say, though, i don't know that I see the breakup more on Victoria's side. I think I see it more on Sveta's side, where Victoria's like, I just can't trust that Amy and or Lab Rat aren't going to do something to you that'll ruin you. Like, I just can't trust they're not going to put a sleeper cell in your body that, yeah you know, does something in the future. Yeah.
01:57:37
Speaker
And she's like, well, yeah, but I think that's worth the risk. And I think Sveta would get more upset than Victoria. I think Victoria could get over it. But I think Victoria would imply something that Sveta then don't... I don't know. Sveta, I think we've seen, is a lot more emotional than she lets on.
01:57:52
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I would see the break happening from Sveta's side, not Victoria's, to clarify that. See, I would see Victoria just because she gets... both rightfully and almost unreasonably angry when it comes to subjects of Amy. like Also true.
01:58:09
Speaker
ah Unreasonable in the moment, very reasonable for what happened. For the trauma, absolutely, 100%. Like, yeah. um But if you're talking to her about Amy, it's one of those, like, she instantly is like, nope, it's bad.
01:58:22
Speaker
Like, we know it's bad. And it's like, well, we don't know that. And she's like, it's got to involve Amy, so it's obviously bad. She's right 90% of the time. However, you know,
01:58:34
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah. Yeah. ah yeah know It's a good, good great question. Yeah. Let's.
01:58:45
Speaker
Talk about March. Let's talk about some bullshit. Let's talk about fucking bullshit. Oh, March. Positives,
March's Storyline Conclusion and Vista's Role
01:58:55
Speaker
ah I think, from Tory's perspective, interesting.
01:59:01
Speaker
Yeah. I think the fight on its own, just the fight, I think, is the fight we were looking for before. It is the 1v1. is almost even.
01:59:15
Speaker
they're you know They're having their little verbal battle. Tori even tries to do a little like... that Yeah, it was quick. Thank God. That is the correct amount of time a battle should be taking. um Tori tries to pull her in at one point in time and like...
01:59:31
Speaker
you know, March is basically like, no, no, no, no. Like this is essentially our fight. I'm not going to stab her on, you know, the account that you stepped in So allows her to get up and you know get the sword. And then they go back to their little duel.
01:59:43
Speaker
um However, I was at the end, you know, we'll ah we we'll just leave it at that that. That is, that is the good part. I thought the fight was good. I thought that was what the fight that we needed from them, how it ended and then how it ended again,
02:00:00
Speaker
leave up to hear y'all's thoughts.
02:00:05
Speaker
Well, i I got got the fake out got me because I was mad. i was like, God damn it. And then I kept reading and then I was like, OK. Like, I don't know if I'm happy with the way the fight concluded, but the fact that foil and imp are fine.
02:00:25
Speaker
and Vista is also fine. Apparently good surprise. I I'm grateful that these characters I like are around.
02:00:40
Speaker
it's It's hard, though, because I'm like on one. I'm i'm glad they're around. Their victory.
02:00:50
Speaker
Feels unearned in a weird way, in the sense that. March felt so OP. In her interlude. To have her done in.
02:01:04
Speaker
By a trick that she should have been aware could happen. Though I guess she assumed Vista was dead like we did.
02:01:17
Speaker
i don't know. Like it feels like. This fight should have happened after she popped the bubble. Like she gets, she pops the bubble and then it's just like, well, I already did one thing, but my real reason for coming here was you and me. And then this fight happens.
02:01:34
Speaker
also on yeah On the high rise. I think a couple small changes, again, we go back to to if you had an editor, because I think a couple small changes really change all of this. I think if Vista's death is way more ambiguous, right? You, you know, quote unquote, don't show the body, right?
02:01:53
Speaker
um Instead of writing that, or she exploded. And now you're like, okay, well, but what actually happened because I still have a lot of questions about how she survived that by the way yeah um yeah but you you play that more ambiguously you can pop up later you we see that all the time you can do that also if at the end ah like I get how Vista's power works but to me the the shortening a distance between a blade and a body is such an extreme reach of what we've seen her power do that That it would have made, for me, it would have been way better if instead of that it was it was something really simple like foil from far away stabs, March laughs at how far away they are until she realizes that, oh, they've been brought really close together, blade through March's heart, something like that. That's just more in line with the way we've seen Vista's power work.
02:02:50
Speaker
um I don't know, just little things like that that I think could have just could have just touched the fight up a bit for me to make it more satisfying. I still really like the fight. Or a preview of Vista being able to have that level of fine control. Maybe even in March's interlude.
02:03:08
Speaker
where it's like, March is surprised, like, I don't think we saw anything like this, but where March would be surprised of like, wow, I didn't, like, I knew she could move this whole city, I didn't know that she could deflect a bullet by moving the space around her, you know, that kind of, like, something that yeah yeah out of a night she has, she has confined control, because you are right that I'm like, oh, that,
02:03:28
Speaker
I didn't know she could do that. Like, that sounds like that. would yeah If you fire a bullet at her and all of a sudden the bullet gets to like right here and then falls. And what happened was the bullet had to travel for so long to get to her that it lost loses the momentum and drops eventually because of gravity. Like, and it looks like the bullets are just falling on at her, but she's just warping the space, you know, here to be a thousand plus feet.
02:03:51
Speaker
um Once again, the best example of this, the only other example I can think of this is Jujutsu Kaisen's like mentor character has that ability where he can create infinite space between himself and others.
02:04:04
Speaker
Interesting. yeah And the the other thing too, I guess that doesn't, in terms of a trio of characters that don't make sense to be working together, Foil and Imp make sense.
02:04:16
Speaker
Obviously, they're both undersiders. is doesn't narwhal even think that vista's dead like how does foil find out that vista's alive and then and and then convinces her come get revenge well i guess convincing her to get revenge on march march probably wouldn't be hard but like and like because i'm pretty sure didn't narwhal say that this it was like yeah know they're gonna give me a lot of crap about vista and then it's like oh wait no she's alive like i don't know i felt like it right of a trio to be working together it was a bit odd that we ended up with foil imp and vista yeah i don't know an odd yeah i mean guess vista and foil because they work together all the way back in the day foil because they work together now that part i i don't have much of a problem with i and and
02:05:05
Speaker
So we're going to back how she survived versus ah now. um I realized i kind of, I guess I did give spoilers because I didn't remember how she's from. I knew that she did live. I assumed that she lived because like Valkyrie was nearby or some bullshit and that she really didn't live. She just,
02:05:24
Speaker
go yeah you know got grabbed or something. um yeah So I thought there was like, oh yeah, we'll do that and we'll see her like, I don't know, near the end of the story where it turned out she lived. You know in an opposite b Brian situation.
02:05:37
Speaker
um I did not realize she just makes it, like she doesn't even, she's not even gone for half an arc. yeah yeah Yeah. That's fucking bonkers. It's the, ah you know what it is? It's the Chewie getting blown up in a ship and you think like he's dead in episode 8 of Star Wars and then like literally like the next scene is then revealing that he's fine he just got taken prisoner so like immediately undercuts the emotional power of the scene yeah where it's like Chewie's dead oh no he's fine yeah yeah you know or or also in episode 8 where you're like ah Leia's dead and the no no no she's not
02:06:22
Speaker
yeah Even though that would have been the perfect time to do it. Yep. God damn it. Like, but in that she gets stabbed and then ah it, you know, she does the thing where the infinite ah thing. And, but it does explode because it, in that point, but she just continues to move the explosion away from her. Also, it blows up.
02:06:49
Speaker
Light thing blew up. Yeah, the chest plate blows up, but she just separates her chest plate, which, you know, man, it's an effect. We can talk about how that works, how close that chest plate would have to be and all that. So already questionable.
02:07:02
Speaker
But I was like, if that's the way I was going to do powers, I would do that. Didn't realize that's actually probably what she did, because yeah that would be crazy if she did that. um And then to have her revealed almost immediately to be alive,
02:07:18
Speaker
Love how they they do the thing of like stretching and shrinking the space so that she can, you know, avoid getting stabbed for, you know, foil and stuff. But like i said, you said before, like it'd be better if we showed that and just didn't do the fake out death or.
02:07:33
Speaker
Also, I think they should have just had that all in the same scene. Wrap her up. She did her thing. She has her like final battle. They get the better her. And it's crazy because Wild Bo has done this in Wyrm. He did it perfectly with Foil's fake-out death against Jack at the very end, where you'd think she's bubbled, but she's just faking it to get right behind behind the bubble. Oh, cool.
02:07:56
Speaker
yeah Which was so good. Yeah. Which probably had to do with some of her timing ability, that she was able to figure out the timing of like how to move like she was in the bubble and whatnot. Like... ah i Okay, can I... okay my My question is,
02:08:12
Speaker
So I obviously i read I read this bit and I just was like, well, I'm confused. And that was weird. And OK, I don't understand what happened, but all right.
02:08:24
Speaker
And then I scrolled and I looked at some of the comments and all the comments were like, Vista, Vista, Vista, Vista. And i was like. The fuck are we talking about? And fits and like I it just it OK, this is one of this is one of those things that makes me feel stupid is that like.
02:08:43
Speaker
If it just, it there's no, there's no, no, there's no Vista at all anywhere in here. But we have this like one weird thing that happens with the sword and the sword is like, oh, and also like, oh, and now, oh, like, and then that's it.
02:08:59
Speaker
And, and me having read one, And Reading Ward, with a cast of 18 billion fucking people, with a million powers that I can't fucking remember, I'm supposed to just be like, oh yes, clearly it's Vista.
02:09:16
Speaker
um
Community Reading Experience and Complexity
02:09:17
Speaker
i agree him I didn't catch that it was Vista until I read the comments. And I only didn't, I didn't believe the comments until it was what I think all the comments are basing it off of but was wild bows comment towards the top where someone was like, why would you, why would you put a break there? And he was like, Oh, almost like it was warped.
02:09:37
Speaker
And it was like, Oh, Almost like it was warped. Yes. Oh my gosh. I think that's where everyone, because I agree. I don't think even some of the comments early on in the chapter were not convinced it was Vista. Yeah, that's what chat was saying earlier. They're like, the formatting is warped to also give you a hint, apparently, on the on the thing if you're reading it online. not But no, i don't I don't think that's a you thing. No, no. I'm not saying it's good. yeah I'm just saying. Yeah, no. I was also confused. Yeah.
02:10:03
Speaker
The problem is is that when you consistently have moments like this, instantly, that make me feel stupid, i don't want to fucking read your book if I'm gonna feel stupid the whole goddamn time. yeah I'm gonna go read some something else and like, listen, I will be the first to admit, I do read a lot of fucking smut, but I also read a lot of other shit too, thank you very much, and I don't have trouble reading that, so why is it that I just stumble my way through a ward?
02:10:31
Speaker
I didn't feel like I had this yeah problem in Worm, but apparently, i don't know. the same thing. It's the same thing. It's an inconsistency in what matters.
02:10:46
Speaker
You have people who write books that are just obtuse, and at at least the book is consistently obtuse. You have books that are easy to digest. Yeah, I get it.
02:10:58
Speaker
you know, that's what they are. But Wildbo has this thing where it is both accessible to read a lot of the portions of the book and yet incredibly obtuse for, you know, the other portion of it. portion of it And it's just back and forth all the time. It can be paragraph to paragraph. It can be within the same paragraph, how confusing he's deciding to write. And there's no consistency that.
02:11:28
Speaker
what's going to be where, which is why you can skip an entire ah ah chapter and none of it matter. Or you could miss one line in a paragraph in that chapter. And that'd be the thing that mattered for that entire chapter. yeah Like, Oh wait, I missed literally a sentence.
02:11:47
Speaker
It was the only sentence that mattered, but it did matter. So like,
02:11:55
Speaker
I think that's part of why this, yeah I mean, the whole book is a community read if you think of it that way. It really is Oh my God. And I think that's part of what makes it unique and what a lot of people like about it. It also makes it like But we need each other to i even like understand it. That's why you guys got the comments and all that stuff. It makes a good podcast. It makes a great podcast. It's a strength and a weakness, and I can see both sides for sure. I don't know exactly. Yeah, for sure.
02:12:24
Speaker
There are other shows that do this, like TV shows. ah Twin Peaks is the peak example of bullshit all over the place that has weird meanings or doesn't, but it's up to the audience to spend their time. Or doesn't.
02:12:40
Speaker
figuring it out. um That's the oldest I can think of ah that had that kind of following that required the audience to brainstorm, to figure out all the crazy stuff.
02:12:53
Speaker
um Lost, obviously. And Westworld, at least season one, maybe season two. um Definitely season one, for sure.
02:13:05
Speaker
Those...
02:13:08
Speaker
demanded audience participation as you watched them. um You could watch them on your own. ah you i could see you feeling ah very confused as you went along, but by the end you could get it.
02:13:26
Speaker
But the maximum of enjoyment of those came with week to week trying to figure out ahead of time. And those were built like that. Other shows, at best, you maybe have one mystery. Like you're trying to figure who the big bad guy at the end of the murder mystery show is. Stuff like that.
02:13:46
Speaker
This isn't all over the place. What's the thing you're trying to figure out? Once again, it's it's not consistent with... what is in secret, what's not, what you're trying to figure out, what's not, what's explained and what is not.
02:14:02
Speaker
um It's just all over the place. Yeah.
02:14:08
Speaker
I will say that the... But that's why you the community. Exactly. The trope of, like, the final confrontation between hero and rival, you know, is oh not unique to this.
02:14:23
Speaker
But... The only thing I could compare it to in the moment was that way better than it had any right to be Minecraft video from like six months ago with a thousand players on the two
Speculation on Dauntless Titan's Future
02:14:36
Speaker
maps.
02:14:37
Speaker
If you guys end up finishing that. yeah yeah But it boils down to two people fighting at the end. Slight spoilers. But it's so well done because they they edited like a movie. And it's just like, it was it's crazy to me reading this by...
02:14:52
Speaker
an author that I respect the hell out of who I think is punching far above his weight class in terms of what, what he writes every single day. And just, you even the best of them can just miss the landing, you know, worse than some Minecraft YouTubers. Shout out. Just ish. That's right.
02:15:13
Speaker
Ish. Yeah. Yeah. um it's hard writing is hard and i i feel like because there's a lot in the a lot in the scene that i thought worked really really well it just didn't quite stick it and it's yeah it's uh yeah it's crazy yeah yeah and i am relieved like i'm relieved to know that we have that this is alive i guess and that March is no longer a problem.
02:15:40
Speaker
That's one relief because March was horn between our pinky toes. And I am glad to have her out of here. Yeah. Better not be any bullshit.
02:15:51
Speaker
Oh, she's coming back. Nonsense. Cause I know. yeah that I will say in that, if that becomes a fake out, I, that one's not going to be easy. Why the really, he doesn't really fake out deaths. Like this is really the only one usually. Yeah. Right. Or like when coil faked out his death or no, stop I don't need to think about it too much.
02:16:15
Speaker
I'm just looking forward to having a Vista okay and lost all moving on with our lives because this arc is wrapped up. Now we've got fucking what's-his-name, we got Cradle, March is dead, everyone's got their limbs back, what's going to be the next big problem? And I don't, i want to believe, want to believe that it's not going to be Titan. Because I want to believe that he's just going to be the the human skyscraper in the sky. And it's going to be fine. And he's not going to become a problem. It's going to be fine. And... What if, just hear me out.
02:16:52
Speaker
We get to the end of We get to the end of Ward. The last scene happens. And then it all just dissolves. And Coil just pops up. Well, that was a waste of time.
02:17:04
Speaker
Start over. Oh, no. Redo the whole thing. Yeah. Thank God.
02:17:12
Speaker
ah redo the whole thing yeah god That's how Wild Bo ends his career. When he finally decides to retire, is goingnna that's what his last line's going to be.
02:17:26
Speaker
Everything has been a coil dream. Everything was a was a coil dream. Oh, Lord. oh I got shot and everything. Jesus, fuck.
02:17:41
Speaker
Can't play that skitter, girl. Damn. Damn. yeah The old Taylor in a coma theory from Vic. Yeah. Exactly. That's it. Yeah. J-Man points out when quick March dies.
02:17:54
Speaker
Part of me wonders, did Wild Boat change it or speed up the March arc after the heavy negative reception? You know, i thought kind of that I was wondering, I hope so, because I think part of one of the great things about doing web serials and getting immediate fucking feedback from your people is that you can pivot and shift when you realize maybe I shouldn't have made that choice. That was maybe a bad call. And I think that that's one of the pros of doing a web serial is you are getting that immediate feedback and you can pivot fairly quickly and decide. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to I'm going to agree. That was a bad call. We're going to retcon. We're going to fix it.
02:18:36
Speaker
And if if i I like I would like to think that that's what happened is that he went, oh, okay, um we're going to pivot and did. Yeah, smart.
02:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah no i could I could absolutely see that. I could see the Vista thing being planned and having a bigger lead-up to the March fight, but kind of scrapping that concept as he realized, oh, I think I i lost some some credibility with the way I handled March. um And like you said, it's a benefit to a web serial where you can ah you can immediately pivot.
02:19:12
Speaker
Because it it really doesn't make sense that narwhal's like you're gonna take a break foil and she's like no i gotta to go do something i'm like are you sure for you just went through a lot like take a nap first maybe sorry real before i forget who was the or what was the dog was that any sort of was that supposed to be significant no no no was just they they rode one of rachel's dogs over there rode the dog Oh, okay. Gotcha. Oh, and the dog. Okay.
02:19:40
Speaker
That makes more sense. Gotcha. Gotcha. Again, probably see, that's another thing. We're like, okay, there's a dog here. Does that allude to anything? Yeah. No, there's just a dog. They just wrote there on a dog. Like, okay.
02:19:53
Speaker
Yeah. I will say on the on my list of like top 10 things in Ward and Worm that sound the most painful, there's a lot up there. Having a knife fused to my finger, which is then stuck in a wall, sounds pretty rough.
02:20:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it's not not fun. like It's not like high on the list because obviously there's a lot more extreme examples. But you know how like sometimes like a big cut doesn't hurt in the moment, but like you stub your toe and it's the worst pain you felt in your life. you feel like It's like that kind of thing where I'm like, you know, Brian getting his organs spread out, that's pretty rough. Getting cut in half with...
02:20:30
Speaker
cradles thing that's pretty rough man having a knife you know if you see your bone though that sounds real bad yeah it's like the the worst paper cut you've ever had and she got imped yeah yeah yeah and then she got imped so you know yeah it's fine thank god for him oh man what a peach yeah uh Last thing, just before we go, where do you think we're going next?
02:21:00
Speaker
What do you think the people are going to be doing?
02:21:05
Speaker
What's the next big problem? Are they tackling that immediately?
02:21:10
Speaker
i mean,
Upcoming Threats and New Team Dynamics
02:21:11
Speaker
it feels... Robot, robot, robot. Army, army, army. It feels like Dauntless, the Dauntless Titan is yeah next on the list, but... i don't want it to be.
02:21:24
Speaker
I don't really know how much time he can really spend there. Like, does he attack and then we have an Inbringer fight with... um I've got a guess. I've got a guess.
02:21:35
Speaker
Please. A thought. I think the Dauntless Titan is going to come in first as a good thing. It's because it's connected to the multiverse, they can use him.
02:21:48
Speaker
and Dauntless is still in there. He's still a good guy. Maybe he finds a way to manipulate things so that way he can start fixing things. But doing so draws the attention of bigger threats like Sleeper, like the Machine Army, like, you know, now it's gone now, but things like the got the the world hammer. That's good.
02:22:13
Speaker
good. And then somehow that starts to twist it into it becoming a bad thing. Like it becomes a magnet for all of the highly powered and terrible beings in the universe and maybe even perhaps other entities yeah so i'll throw that out i would love another entity to show up i don't think one ever will i think i was thinking about it too i was thinking it would be really cool to have what was the other one agam abaddon abaddon that's who it was it wasn't agamemnon that bad one
02:22:48
Speaker
Yeah. i'm badden yeah Like, that would be really cool to have to suddenly deal with, and that would be interesting. I'd love to see it. Any other theories? Like, Nyx was pretty good. i I think you're right, though. Like, I think that this is going to be a problem. I mean, and the Simurgh doing Smurgy things, so... Is this the first time we've seen the Simurgh active, other than Dormant?
02:23:15
Speaker
In Ward, I think. In war in Ward. Which, once again, she was meant am I stupid? but this is ah This is another Hannah's stupid moment. did they They didn't say it was the Simmer. They just said that there was a winged creature up by his head. Again, i read the comments and like, oh, it's the Simmer. I was like, oh, yeah, that does sound like the Simmer. Okay, so i don't read the comments because to me they feel like spoilers. And I want to be able to like be able to talk about it with you guys or read it. And apparently i need to start reading the comments now.
02:23:47
Speaker
i I like what kind of seeing the reaction. What's nice about it, they do get kind of mean sometimes. What's nice about it, though, is the comments are in the moment, so there's literally no way they can spoil anything, which, you know. Not necessarily. the top comments, well, not necessarily, but the top comments are typically the most, like it's ordered by recency. Order?
02:24:07
Speaker
Okay, okay. They're ordered from like when they were posted. not but And there's really... right WordPress is actually kind of a terrible website because there's no way to like sort comments or like minimize comment chains as far as I know at least.
02:24:19
Speaker
And so it's just literally like whoever posted first goes first. and it yeah And I just read like the top three or something. i don't read I don't like read the whole page. i mean, that's why you have us, Hannah. You don't have to if you don't watch. This is why you guys are here. Exactly. yeah that's so who you I need to make myself a little dunce cap apparently. No, no. This is like, like I said, it's a community, ah weird a community experiments experience, this whole thing.
02:24:45
Speaker
She's not listening. ah Last question while Hannah puts on her dunce cap. There we go. That's a perfect dunce cap. It's cute though, so it's good. Very cute. Last question before we go. Kenzie and Aiden discussed creating their own group.
02:25:02
Speaker
What ah should the name for their group be?
02:25:09
Speaker
Little Rascals obviously is already out. Little Rascals is cute. They would be... Birdseye.
02:25:17
Speaker
Birdseye? I like Birdseye. Like Birdseye View? birds like that. I mean, you gotta take in that you're probably gonna include the little heartbroken too. The younger ones.
02:25:29
Speaker
m um Like...
02:25:35
Speaker
the Chicken coop. Chicken coop's cute. I was going to say, like, big trouble and little chicken. That's adorable. I actually really like that. That's fun.
02:25:50
Speaker
That's good. For those of you who don't know, Big Trouble and Little China was a very fun... a B movie. A weird movie. Starring Kurt Russell. movie but Very weird.
02:26:02
Speaker
Basically the plot of Ranma 1.5, if you ever saw that old anime film. For those of you who don't know this obscure film, it's very much the plot of this other more obscure film. I don't know. Reference within a reference. with a You would know Ranma 1.5 because the trailer for it would play at the beginning of the Pokemon movie.
02:26:20
Speaker
If you had it on VHS. Oh, Definitely didn't play on my VHS. I'll tell you that much. don't even know the words, but I know the song they're kidnapping the girl in the trailer. that's great, Alex. Good job. Well, it's gotten late and we've diverged. Yeah. Yep.
02:26:38
Speaker
ah job well it's gotten late and we've diverged far we have i think yeah yep All right. Yeah. i think it's time. Bernard pointed it. Birdbrain's already a character, so they can't do that. Oh, Birdbrain would have been fun. You need to do something like Birdheart, personally, because you got to have something. Something with flock.
02:27:00
Speaker
Like, yeah, the airy or something. Ooh, the airy. The aviary. Ooh. The aviary could be really fun. Yeah, those are good. yeah Yeah. ah Although...
02:27:13
Speaker
like the rookery or rook would be good because it's, you've got like the whole bird thing, but also like the tower and seeing from there. Ooh, that's really good. I can't work in the like emotion into that.
02:27:28
Speaker
So figure something else. Very nice. Very fun. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate all of you. Oh, it was a very small bingo. It was a lot, a whole lot. I've got relationship problems, milk, Nick, ghostful teacher, Hannah cries, cat on screen, Alan, the go past 10 PM. Michael wrangles them in. Someone missed the April fool's chapter. ah There were two others and I can't remember what they were. Cause I had to move it to a three by three. Cause we really didn't have a lot going on this. Wow. wow
02:28:01
Speaker
Weak sauce. Aren't our patrons the ones who supposed to help you come up with? I prompted them at the last minute. They
Final Thoughts and Community Engagement
02:28:07
Speaker
did not come up with anything this week. But to be fair, like I said, there wasn't that much going on in this chapter. You give them better notice. Apologize. I do need to give, you know what, that's on me. However, next time should be chock full of stuff.
02:28:19
Speaker
to talk about. So I need those of you in the page to come up with bingos now, if you wouldn't mind. That's exciting. mean You've had a good look over. We'll be reading 13.1 to 13.7, I think is a good spot.
02:28:34
Speaker
All right. awesome I do feel bad that we have to cut so many of these arcs in half, just because I feel like it would make more sense if we read them all in one go. I mean, we don't have to.
02:28:45
Speaker
oh So much reading. It's only 100,000 words. yeah We could read it in two weeks, I guess. But I always do my reading Mondays and Tuesdays. That would die.
02:28:58
Speaker
I mean, we'll talk about it off. Because have other books I'm reading, you know? yeah Yeah. And our next time would be when? michael Nick needs us to do it on a Monday again. So you're welcome, Alan. Happy Monday surprise for you. i i called it. Happy Monday surprise. thing you got to know, I'm never wrong.
02:29:16
Speaker
Tell me it's not going to be on a Monday. I knew it was on a Monday. Yeah. after On the 9th. the 9th. He got shit on me. um So in two weeks, on the 9th, instead of Tuesday the 10th, we're doing the 9th because Nick has stuff to do.
02:29:37
Speaker
best Whatever. mean He's got a life. Probably dad stuff. Probably dad stuff. Family or something. Anyways. um So we'll see you on Monday. put your, ah you know, I will have the YouTube reminders, but put it in your calendars just in case.
02:29:56
Speaker
And we will not be switching it unless something crazy happens. So Monday the 9th. I know we're, you know, we're the beginning of the year. So it's kind of crazy.
02:30:08
Speaker
yeah You never know. It's weird getting back into the swing of things. We're like, when is it? Is it today? Is it Monday? when is So annoying. day But yes, just keep your eyes on the YouTube for the schedule, guys.
02:30:22
Speaker
um Other than that, yeah, exciting. Stuff's happening. Big things. Big things. All right. You want a little outro song?
02:30:36
Speaker
Always. Hell yeah. and Oh, heck yeah.
02:31:02
Speaker
Sometimes just for fun, I'll cancel my Patreon subscription just so I can have the pleasure of signing up once again.
02:31:15
Speaker
Yeah. All right, guys. We'll see you on the 9th. Thank you so much.
02:31:27
Speaker
Bye.