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BBBC Reads Ward - Arc 17.7 - 17.z - Sundown
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This story isn’t intended for young or sensitive readers. Readers who are on the lookout for trigger warnings are advised to give Worm a pass. Complete list of potential triggers: here
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The Brockton Bay Book Club discusses J.C. McCrae's Ward live! The gang reads a portion of Ward and comes together to share our thoughts with each other and anyone who want's to participate.
This week we cover Arc 17.7 - 17.z - Sundown
Read along here
Play along with this week's BBBC BINGO while you listen!
Support us and connect with us @brocktonbaybc
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Setup
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Brockton Bay Book Club. i am your invisible host, Alan. Yes, and sock puppeting me is my co-host, Nick.
00:00:19
Speaker
your name your neck Nick. Hello! He's locked in. i got I got too deep in the sauce of sock puppeting you. Yeah, I saw that. Jacob.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello. And of course our producer, Michael. Hey guys, welcome. welcome
00:00:38
Speaker
Sadly, Hannah was lost to us during ah a bad trigger event.
Reading and Book Club Games Discussion
00:00:45
Speaker
oh So... you know, shout out to a real one. Yeah.
00:00:51
Speaker
yeah May we see her in shard heaven. o that ah um Yeah. And as we can tell, i have my own technical difficulties because sometime between yesterday and today, my phone stopped working as a webcam.
00:01:09
Speaker
So, you know, that's a good time.
00:01:13
Speaker
Which can anyway. Yeah, yeah. Me, Jacob, and Michael have the visual charisma down. we're go to We're going to really bring it with the facial expressions. yeah and the The visual charisma, the vishisma, if you will.
00:01:26
Speaker
The vishisma, yep. ah Coming in with that hard penimus. yep Yep, exactly. Well, speaking of penimus, it is gone.
00:01:39
Speaker
There's no sane person to react to. Yeah, no person to go, oh God, why? yeah um Welcome to the Brockton Bay Book Club. We, of course, are book club reading through ward by JC
Games and Arc 17 Overview
00:01:56
Speaker
McRae. If you'd like to read along, I'm sure there are the links in the description.
00:02:00
Speaker
ah You could also join us playing some bingo live, ah which I believe the bingo is also in description. If you want to contribute to the bingo or just chat out of ah out of the podcast, you next time.
00:02:15
Speaker
We also have, I've i' have put together a worm game show called Wormnesia um that is totally not ripping off of another YouTube game show that somebody else also rips off of another actual show.
00:02:28
Speaker
um ah But we'll be doing that and that's patron exclusive. ah But I found out it was really easy to make and I could probably churn out like at least one a week.
00:02:39
Speaker
So um and maybe tune in ah pretty soon if you'd like to watch ah these folks see how bad their wormnesia is. that's now youre end It's bad. It's real bad. oh yeah You may be able to churn out one making one a week, but getting you guys all in one video call once a week has proved difficult.
00:03:02
Speaker
yeah We can't even do it once every other
00:03:08
Speaker
That's little caveat there, but I'm very excited. on
00:03:15
Speaker
um But all that to be said, i think we've got all of the that stuff out of the way. ah and Now that Nick's gone, Nick, what were your thoughts about at the opening of and the back half of Arc 17?
00:03:32
Speaker
Nick, you have the floor. Oh, thank you, Alan. All right. You had your chance, to Jacob. Oh, you bitch. Also, what is what is your what is your shirt?
00:03:42
Speaker
Oh, ah yes. So this is actually this is one of my Father's Day gifts um that I picked for myself. i'll sit I'll stand up so you can see it better. but it's I have mastered the art of silly goosery, is what it says. Very nice. so got Pretty good. Pretty good.
00:04:01
Speaker
It's by ah an artist I found online, Wizard of Barge, who does some very fun nerd-themed art. You should go check him out. um Yeah, thoughts thoughts on 17, though. Not a sponsor, just a cool guy. um Thoughts on 17.
00:04:23
Speaker
and I know. I mean, thank
Character Interactions and Development
00:04:27
Speaker
it's there are some really interesting parts and I feel like some very fascinating lore bits.
00:04:34
Speaker
But i don't I don't know. Unlike the other times where I feel like the first half is a bit weak, but it leads into a strong second half. I almost felt like the first half was stronger because of where we ended with like the tension of will she get to go out, will she not, and she doesn't get to go out, and now we're sort of dealing with the fallout of that.
00:04:55
Speaker
um I don't know. There's some great conversational moments, um but this wasn't... for some reason, this just wasn't an arc that like stuck with me. It's like, wow, that was amazing. I want to keep reading. I do want to keep reading. i will say, i'll I'll end by saying the last interlude sucked me back in again, where I'm like, okay, I need to know what happens now.
00:05:16
Speaker
But up until that point, it was very okay, I guess. I don't know. ah Major Malfunctions was great. I did enjoy their part. Yeah.
00:05:30
Speaker
Jacob. Yeah, I think I would probably agree with that overall. I do. There are a couple ah moments, some conversations in.7 through.10 that I did really like.
00:05:45
Speaker
The Tattletail ah Victoria conversation that goes on for like a whole arc was really good. um Bits and pieces like that that I i did i really, really liked. But yeah, it's it's a weird...
00:06:00
Speaker
it's a weird few chapters and we go from like zero to a hundred in the last interlude, which is fun and exciting. And I agree. I am actually pretty excited to keep reading because it's a really interesting event and I'm, I'm really curious how it's going to unfold.
00:06:16
Speaker
Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of just, we, it's a similar problem we run into a lot where I find myself not really caring. i do like the major malfunctions. I like whenever they popped up. So was really nice getting some more background into them only to be like,
00:06:31
Speaker
maybe they're all dead now i do too hard hard to say so uh you know it's like am i supposed to care about them or not i don't know it's a little hard to sort of uh follow everything that's going on but uh yeah not not the weakest arc by any means um but not the strongest for me animal yeah i uh I don't know. I know that this can be boring for a lot of people.
00:07:02
Speaker
I, this was borderline for me for a lot of it. We're like, we're, we're, we're kind of getting into the almost, I don't enjoy this.
00:07:12
Speaker
Um, and of course the interludes i thought were all great. Um, had a blast with those. Um, and they felt like our classic interludes. Um, if that makes sense of like,
00:07:25
Speaker
In classic interlude format, you get somehow a trigger event as a little treat, you know, some behind the scenes on something, and then, ah you know, seeing stuff from a different perspective. And it was nice seeing um seeing, you know, different perspectives and ah getting those, you know, those origin stories back at it again. Yeah.
00:07:51
Speaker
ah Yeah. Overall, that's that's all I got for it. Shall we get into it? Let's do it. Absolutely. well do it seven oh Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. oh i just got a text message. if that You should ask Hannah what she thinks.
00:08:12
Speaker
The answer is Tattletail is the best. ah TB I'm going to guess that was supposed to be TBH ah there are ups and downs loved the malfunctions bic is starting the Victoria is starting to get annoying
00:08:33
Speaker
yeah fair yeah fair enough very fair a message from Hannah all righty message from Hannah from the beyond. You know, from the beyond. She sent it to us from beyond the shard space.
00:08:46
Speaker
Rest in pieces. um Yeah. Yeah, the Kenzie can't have gotten real good. Oh my gosh, that Kenzie can't technology. It's crazy that Kenzie can get literally somebody who is dead to talk to us, but can't get my phone that's physically tethered to my computer to work as a webcam when it has
Victoria's Power and Relationship Dynamics
00:09:06
Speaker
before.
00:09:06
Speaker
So like, I mean, I guess priorities, but... new webcam Whatever. Yeah. we saying
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah. Absolutely. All right. 17.7. Victoria force field braids her hair and she looks in on her teammates via Kinsey cam.
00:09:27
Speaker
Golem and rain talk about their past. Sveta and company supervise the red queen and Kinsey lets Victoria help coordinate.
00:09:39
Speaker
Yeah, so getting to see an expansion of Victoria's power as she is growing closer to her shard is interesting as a point of character development. um Again, I thought they were kind of on a no power lockdown, but I guess they're not in one of the quote-unquote ice fields, so it's not a big issue where they are.
00:10:00
Speaker
um But still, you know, she's playing with it, which is fun. um I always like seeing Gollum. I always like having him.
00:10:11
Speaker
Was he I'm trying to remember. Is this where he was calling ah Scribe slash Rune? like she was like He was like, oh, I hate her. She's the worst. Is that is this this arc where they were talking about that?
00:10:23
Speaker
i feel like Yeah, it's... Yeah. I don't remember calling him the worst, but maybe I'm wrong. I think...
00:10:35
Speaker
Golem maybe it wasn't Golem maybe it was Cuff who said it but one of them was like yes it may have been Cuff because Golem golan was like i don't want to be like rude about it and Cuff's like nah she's a bitch ah yeah that's what it was call a spade a spade yeah yeah Cuff's great yeah yeah yeah we can appreciate that yeah anytime we see that group of characters I always get happy because they're some of my favorites from ah From Wyrm.
00:11:05
Speaker
In the good old days, the Chicago
00:11:17
Speaker
I was just going to say, I feel like this is one of those that were a lot of talky but not much happened. If I remember right. Yeah. in this Yeah, o I know i have glad that Rain and Gollum are bonding to very similar upbringings. so Yeah, right. really enjoy seeing that. Yeah, true.
00:11:35
Speaker
You know, um I also made special notes of, like, we immediately open with Victoria talking about regretting having sex in the future.
00:11:49
Speaker
like automatically, which just makes points out like wild bow is just the king of miserable sex. Like, and then, you know, they had sex and they were all miserable. I was like, geez, you know, if I often say there's like a variety of motions can that be tied to like sex scenes or something or just sex in general.
00:12:14
Speaker
And you have wild bow just writing them as like, bittersweet every time. And then you've got you know stuff like the incredible lightness of being, which is like, what if we experienced every negative emotion tied to sex instead of any good ones?
00:12:35
Speaker
but Yeah, no, i I feel that too. And in with Annalace,
Arc 17 Deep Dive and Emotional Complexity
00:12:39
Speaker
he's like, he he does like the softball pitch of like, if you ever need me again, and she's like, no, no, it's fine.
00:12:48
Speaker
Yeah. it's a It's a very I'll call you kind of vibe. you know Yeah. Yeah. Which is a shame, but you know, he was cool about it, so we we got to give him props for that.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yeah. It definitely means he's dead, right? like like There's no way. There's no way he lives. Yeah. yeah Yeah, probably. Yeah.
00:13:14
Speaker
but also of ah so i was just I was like, make sure I get this right. So Sveta is currently with her ex-boyfriend and his new girlfriend.
00:13:29
Speaker
And Egg? Somebody who fucking yeah hates her Yep. Sveta, what are you doing? And... ah What's the emotion?
00:13:43
Speaker
Engel. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which Engel doesn't hate her, but just ah just another unique person. Yeah.
00:13:53
Speaker
yeah Um, yeah, no, what a group for her to be with. it's It's no wonder that she kind of comes at Amy with some, some stress in some, uh, like some spice with the way she talks to her and on top of everything, you know, the Sveta feels for Victoria as a friend. i was I was going to say, I do love, I do love a bestie just like defending her bestie. Yeah, that's great. yeah.
00:14:18
Speaker
Oh yeah. It's great. Um, Yeah, a couple of comments here. Isn't this the arc where she, meaning Rune Scribe, yeah is harassing Tristan mid-fight?
00:14:29
Speaker
um Yes, it is. That is where it gets ah i gets brought up, I believe, in even 17.7. um and And then also interesting, someone in-universe being very pro-glory girl throwing dumpsters at Nazis.
00:14:45
Speaker
Also very funny, yes. Wait, wait, wait. Was she harassing him mid-fight? I thought she was just... it was her They were like all hanging out and they being shitty beforehand.
00:14:55
Speaker
It wasn't mid-fight. It was more like Scribe was basically saying like saying rude things about Tristan and everybody else was like, whoa, chill. like This is water under the bridge. like We don't need to...
00:15:09
Speaker
go there he's like well i don't care if i give him crap or not like he he almost killed his brother and everybody's like whoa scribe listen but you know how you know kettle moment here scribe like come on you were a nazi you're going up so you can shut the fuck up and yeah yeah which not to bring in too much from the future but in that future scene when scribe is like I don't need to apologize for my actions.
00:15:38
Speaker
It's like, okay. Yeah. That tells me everything I need to know about you as a person. Which, which I'm not going to lie. I have had one of those like, and, and I've read a couple of characters like that where it's like,
00:15:51
Speaker
the moment of like, why should I apologize? There's nothing to be done. Like at the time it was my right decision. And obviously I've changed from that. So like, I will simply choose to not do that again.
00:16:07
Speaker
Yeah. Very, um, I don't think I know enough about stoicism to say stoic, but, uh,
00:16:20
Speaker
yeah there's there's that There's another like meaner philosophical term, I'm sure. um It's almost cynical in a way, in the in the regular definition, not in the ah philosophical definition.
00:16:32
Speaker
Yeah. But almost in the sense of like, or, don't know, it's a very, to me, it's a very surface level understanding of behavior because it's like, why do I need to apologize if I just show them that I'm different, then they'll believe me that when I say I'm different,
00:16:49
Speaker
The issue, i think, with that is while while we shouldn't take people just at their word, when you're dealing with somebody who has openly held or been with a group that openly holds certain beliefs, everybody also knows it's really easy to mask those beliefs, right? Like, you can still be...
00:17:13
Speaker
you can still believe horrible, racist, homophobic things, but mask it well enough that nobody knows. So I think... it's It's flawed in the sense of like, she does need to openly recant because if she doesn't, then everybody's just assuming, well, you must still believe those things. You're just playing nice now.
00:17:32
Speaker
Right? Like, does that make sense? Which is what everybody else in our crew is kind of doing as far as we Right. Which it's it's so it's very different from the opposite of like Tristan and Byron, even where it's like Tristan tried to kill his brother, basically, essentially, you know, wipe him from existence.
00:17:49
Speaker
the way he overcomes that is by his actions, right? He can't just say, oh I'm nicer to Byron now. He has to be like, no, let me show you and let Byron out and talk and do things. Like, he he can get away with just showing it by his actions in a sense.
00:18:03
Speaker
um Whereas for something like what RuneScribe went through, you have to verbalize it because otherwise people would just assume the worst, right? I i don't know if that makes sense as a distinction, but yeah in my head that makes sense.
00:18:18
Speaker
I'm tracking. Yeah. yeah
00:18:24
Speaker
Which, to bring it... Oh, go ahead. i was just going to say, to bring it to our main villain, Amy, um that is... She is failing in both the words and the action side of things, of course, but um mostly in the words, I would say. Like, I think...
00:18:43
Speaker
What she's doing is pretty terrifying because of her powers, of course, but if it weren't accompanied by all the megalomaniacal things that she's saying and doing, like, you know, it would be a bit more understandable, almost. Almost. Like, almost.
00:18:59
Speaker
She would have to say a lot to get over it, but... Yeah, we've talked about that before, how, like, you know, even in the last, or the first part of this arc where, ah you know, she would...
00:19:10
Speaker
walk around and just cure people of cancer and and things like that where you know action wise a lot of what she does could be justified or even praised celebrated etc but we see the though monster but behind the curtain you know yeah exactly so
00:19:36
Speaker
yeah yeah I didn't have much from an more yeah and this in this opening chapter kinsey Kinsey helping Victoria coordinate through the computer was super fun ah anytime Kinsey's using her computer as is fun yeah especially to you know subvert everybody else telling her not to Yeah. i I do love how often been really just Victoria now, but it'll be just kind of like...
00:20:07
Speaker
Oh, and just randomly, it's almost like a reminder to the audience that Wild Bill throws in to remind us that Kenzie's around. Because Victoria would be just like, oh, Kenzie, by the way don't listen to this part. And you're like, wait, that's right. She's listening to everything. It's like when you used have to do that with Imp all the time. Like, Imp, get yeah out of here. And the way that she would give herself up is being like, but how? It's like, just say it now. I just walk into rooms and I say, impmp get out of here.
00:20:37
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And there's still no way to know if they're actually listening or not. So it's very similar in that way too. Yeah. Does anyone think for a moment that Kenzie is actually not listening when asked?
00:20:52
Speaker
ah Okay. I can tell you exactly how Kenzie gets around this. Kenzie does not listen in. She has a file that records it and turns it into like a transcript for her to look at later right so she's like well i wasn't listening but i did have it backed up just in case you wanted me to read it later which i i did i did just in case you were gonna ask me to yeah i wasn't listening my computer is that whole thing we talked about last time with defiant where he's like
00:21:27
Speaker
Where Victoria's like, you need to ask her specific questions about about what what systems she's running and how to turn them off. So, yeah, very similar. it' like, well, i I didn't listen. My computer did. And then, you know, I had Claude summarize for me your conversation. So I really didn't even get the whole conversation. I just got a bit of it. Oh,
00:21:51
Speaker
oh man. ah Bernard asked if Hannah has stopped her if it's temporary. um Hannah has been temporarily banished to the Shadow Realm, but we're hoping to have her back next time.
00:22:02
Speaker
um No, she's she's okay. She had a... yeah but It's a dentist appointment. Took a lot out of her before this,
Character Conflicts and Resolutions
00:22:09
Speaker
so... Yeah. She's not feeling good. yeah She's not feeling good at all.
00:22:18
Speaker
point ah Point eight. Point eight. Point eight.
00:22:24
Speaker
17.8. come to a head at Shin. Amy almost starts a war, but is talked down by Sveta with Victoria and Tattletail providing help. this This was probably one of the peaks for me, um was this three-way conversation between Victoria, Tattletail, and Sveta, like trying to talk down Amy.
00:22:47
Speaker
That was... I really enjoyed that, of course, because it's Tattletail. She's great. Victoria is providing insight. Tattletail is giving the words, communicating them directly to Sveta eventually after the middleman's taken out.
00:23:00
Speaker
Um, and Sveta interpreting it in her own Sveta way, but it still works with Amy. Um, that That whole moment, plus the tension of like there's like skirmishes starting, like the villains are getting restless, they're wanting to fight the heroes, ah you know the titans that she has are starting to move and attack and almost kill Sveta.
00:23:23
Speaker
This whole bit was really... i enjoyed this bit, this little bit here.
00:23:30
Speaker
Yeah, this this was this was good. um It's funny, Nick, you were saying this reminded me during these whole chapters, I was also thinking it's hilarious to me that all the characters still categorize themselves as heroes and villains just for the sake of like the shard conflict, I guess, that's still subtly controlling them all. yeah Because at this point in the story, like guys, put aside your differences.
00:23:54
Speaker
yeah Reality is fracturing and there's multidimensional titans that about like I think I think we're past cops and robbers little bit yeah yeah yeah but it's still funny yeah well even like the the PRT group has like still has the labels of like these are mercenaries that we've hired these are mercenaries that are basically villains because they're bad it's like kind of like you said it's like yeah we're still Still playing the cops and robbers game. what are Are the villains robbing banks?
00:24:28
Speaker
Like, what are they doing? Like, are they just... Possibly. think they're just like... Honestly, it sounds like they're mostly just taking food and, like, scamming, like, food delivery supply deliveries. Like, that's mostly what it sounds like.
00:24:44
Speaker
yeah or Or they're working for Amy, which is what, you know, right is right the bigger issue, right?
00:24:52
Speaker
Hey, there's some names thrown out here, though. I think... i don't know if it's here or in one of the interludes, actually. I think it's this one. I think it's this one. Faultline's crew gets name-dropped. Harlequin?
00:25:03
Speaker
Harlequin. Is it... Yeah, but... Wait, what'd you say? Palanquin. Palanquin. God. Palanquin. thought you said Harlequin. Did you say Harlequin? I did say Harlequin and immediately was like, that's not right. i was like, as i you said it and I was like, it is a Quinn, but Palanquin? Palanquin? Who said that? Somebody said that. get Michael, get on that and find out who said that. Yeah. is the stock puppet all um Yeah, Palanquin gets mentioned. um i feel like there was another name I recognized, but most of them are just
00:25:34
Speaker
no-name groups that we haven't met before.
00:25:40
Speaker
Yeah. Who's left in Palanque? Everybody survived Gold Morning, right? Or no?
00:25:47
Speaker
I think it's... It felt like it was almost everybody. Is everybody but Neuter survived, I think? Or did Neuter survive? I really don't remember. I don't remember either. I yeah think they all survived.
00:25:59
Speaker
I'm not going to search it. but Yeah. yes Probably for the best, but you know yeah. You just Google, did Neuter die in Gold Morning? No, but he does die in... Yeah, was exactly. like so when Neuter chooses to do Gold Morning 2...
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah Unexpected morning. Neutered morning. Fran, ah I don't know what the aura theory is.
00:26:30
Speaker
You're going to have to explain that one. Is it that Victoria has no aura anymore? Damn, wow. Lost it all. All the auras are connected. It's just people getting involved by Eric.
00:26:44
Speaker
yeah
00:26:46
Speaker
and That's just how Eric enter enters a room every time. Just mogging. Victoria. Yep. ah victoria yeah ah Victoria. hey Why are we calling the things Red ah Queen Encrypted create Titans?
00:27:05
Speaker
ah That is correct. Titans are the like fractured trigger things. True. What are were we calling them? Giants? The Giants are the things that yeah Red Queen Encrypted are creating. yes Which are are like dwarfed in size compared to the Titans. like the tiny Yes, because the Titans... yes Well, they vary in size, but yes, like...
00:27:28
Speaker
The Kronos Titan is literally a skyscraper. Yeah. Yeah. You know, dimension spanning skyscraper.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah. Multi-dimensional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess confusing terminology, uh, big thing and bigger thing. Um, there yeah you go.
00:27:53
Speaker
Yeah. So, yeah. So I don't know. It's, uh, um, Yeah, Amy does almost start the war, though. Gets talked down. Which, this is such a funny point to finally be like, okay, I'll go to therapy. like The world's on the verge of ending a second time, and she's like, okay, I'll go to therapy in the middle of the world ending.
00:28:12
Speaker
Fine. Fine. Yeah. hey yeah at least It's one of those things where, like,
00:28:20
Speaker
You know, we have so many, if you don't do it now, we'll never will never get her to do it. And this is like, okay, we survived this, but she will not go to therapy afterwards. And she becomes the new problem.
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah. right yeah
00:28:35
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um Well. so Yeah, we are we already said Citrine's alive. That's nice. Streen is alive, yeah which we knew.
00:28:49
Speaker
we knew she was alive, but we hadn't seen her yet. Yeah. She does confirm Kurt is dead verbally. Right. And the manner. it wasn't as heroic as we envisioned.
00:29:03
Speaker
He was just a gentleman. He was just holding the door for her. which well now he He did throw himself in the way, ah she said. Calculated.
00:29:14
Speaker
Calculated. What a save. I guess chivalry is dead.
00:29:23
Speaker
Chivalry though is a great hero name. Yeah. Oh my God. What ah what a great hero. thats I love
00:29:35
Speaker
i had to look up proxemics. That was a fun word. um when a Tattletail says, ah like, ah basically calls Kenzie out for being too close, Aiden.
00:29:52
Speaker
Like, proxemics. Come on. um Which is the study of how humans use space in terms of social interactions, whether it be, like, interpersonal directly or, like, propaganda, like, through loudspeakers. It's how the space and communication is related.
00:30:15
Speaker
Curious. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Is that in 17-8? The little tiff between Kinsey and the chicken? Yeah. um Because then we have one of them call Tattletail Tats and I thought that was the best nickname ever. Yep. Yep.
00:30:35
Speaker
yep um Yeah, and then and then after that is ah Amy being on her shit.
00:30:46
Speaker
Because at one point I just have, Oh, so now it's Victoria's fault in the first place. Cause she literally says the thing about, oh is this what you're talking about? The aura thing now ah that I'm going to go look. Yes.
00:31:01
Speaker
Yes, okay. Okay, this is... Here here it goes. So, as Franz expands, aura theory was an explanation in fandom for Amy's feelings and the mind-raping of Victoria, which we did finally get an explicit. It wasn't just mind, it was also body.
00:31:17
Speaker
ah Saying that being so close to her... affected to her... ah with the aura power that kind of soft mind controlled her into loving her in the first place.
00:31:28
Speaker
Um, so basically it's Victoria's fault. Uh, you know, that whole, like she was asking for it. theory um okay and this is i guess a direct refutation of that uh because we have the confrontation and amy says like you were doing this to me you're that victoria was probably doing this to me and then the person's like bitch no it ain't you yeah um because it was ah
00:32:01
Speaker
Basically, right, Victoria explains people who are around me enough gained immunity to it, basically. yeah And I didn't even use it around you that much. I used it around other people more, and it didn't have that effect. So this is just you, only you.
00:32:21
Speaker
Yep, yep. Okay, yeah, I do remember that now. That makes sense. Apparently, you know, existed since the original Worm. ah Amy Interlude and Wildboe even commented on it then, but it was a point of debate and controversy. Thank you, Fran.
00:32:34
Speaker
um Interesting. i I am very glad that that did get debunked because there's yeah nothing worse than having villain created by the hero's own hand trope, but with this particular scenario. Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah right. Very... Way to take a common trope, a great trope, and just... water it down.
00:33:01
Speaker
yeah yeah I'm trying to think of another villain that...
00:33:10
Speaker
that is pathetic.
00:33:13
Speaker
Like... What's a good pathetic villain? Cause in my mind, like the super pathetic characters who have been villainous, like, uh, what's the dad from Rick and Morty?
00:33:30
Speaker
ah Jerry, Jerry, gar Jerry, like Jerry is a, is an, ah is literally Amy, you know, the pathetic character where nothing's ever my fault. Um, yeah, you know, and that is their, like, that's their superpowers that they can just blame everybody else for the fact that they're pathetic.
00:33:48
Speaker
Um, And it also helps them slide under everybody's radar because they're so sad, which is like the sinister part of it. But if they do do something evil, it's like, well, how could they do it? And it like disqualifies it because they're so not aggressive.
00:34:05
Speaker
um Which you kind of see that in Rick and Morty, but I'd be interested if there's another character that almost gets infantilized for how yeah like I said, just pathetic they are yeah so their their actions get diminished even though they are the villain. Interesting.
00:34:29
Speaker
Dr. Doofushmirtz.
00:34:33
Speaker
Right, right. my silly Is he a bad guy though? He's not even a villain. He's not even a villain. um Yeah, i the one when you were talking about pathetic villains or like the the villain who believes they're the product of the heroes, but in reality they aren't.
00:34:53
Speaker
um The one that comes to mind is Mysterio from the second Spider-Man movie, I want to say, email more recently where he's like, far from home Tony Stark, yeah, from Far From Home, yeahow where he's like, Tony Stark made fun of me and ruined my life, and it's like, you look back and it's like, no, he...
00:35:11
Speaker
He literally didn't. That was just your interpretation of events. Nothing he did ruined your life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so it' Which is already a Tony Stark character from Iron Man 3. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. so So Tony has made some villains, but there are a couple who blame him for no reason. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, ah Lord Farquaad from Shrek. Lord Farquaad. That's good, yeah. See, specific I feel like that's more comedic. i mean, maybe. 100%. Because he's just, he's so blatantly aggressive. Yeah.
00:35:53
Speaker
Yeah. That like... He's looking up a list of good villains. Yeah. I'm sure there's The culture genocide does go pretty far, I guess.
Pathetic Villains and Character Comparisons
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah. I'm sure there is a a DC villain probably that
00:36:13
Speaker
there's always a DC villain that is like yeah like a DC villain that's it's um so small time um and i yeah yeah I'm sure there's some comic run that has that you know who else kind of fits it is Squidward from Squidward and Plankton, but in different ways.
00:36:37
Speaker
Oh, wait, if you're talking about what do like d Plankton actually is a pretty good example. Yeah. I would say. Blatantly evil, but because he's small of stature, it's taken as comedic effect. When he is, in fact, bad.
00:36:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. a Comedic is probably... Like, anything comedic is probably doesn't count for a lot of that. Right, right. Because it's meant to be funny.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah. um and what You know who else? ah Oh, you know. His actions, I don't know that I would say they get downplayed. We're going off on a real tangent here. But um in terms of pathetic villains, one of the best pathetic villains, I think, because it's so well executed is Commodus from the Gladiator movie.
00:37:23
Speaker
Because he is very And now granted, you you could argue that his villainy is his father's fault, right? um Not the hero's fault, but the father's his father's fault.
00:37:35
Speaker
yeah um I think there's a pretty clear connection there. um But he he blames Maximus so much for...
00:37:46
Speaker
his father rejecting him when it's not even Maximus's fault. Right. No. um Right. So I, and plus he is so pathetic. He does so many evil things, but because he's so pathetic, he, um, it's like a lot of those things he does. It's like, Oh, well, you know, it didn't really matter because he's such a loser.
00:38:09
Speaker
ah But yeah he did some pretty bad things, including killing his dad. Yeah. No, you're you're you're right. He does have a level of patheticness that like, especially midway through the movie, even though he is responsible for so much already, you're just kind of like, what a, you know, what a sniveling bitch. And he, I can definitely see you're just like, oh he's a little baby boy, bitch.
00:38:34
Speaker
Mm-hmm. But he is really terrible. like Yeah, exactly. yeah that that yeah He is a very good, pathetic villain. What about um ah King Joffrey?
00:38:51
Speaker
I haven't seen Game Thrones. He's just so evil. but Like, outright yeah so pathetic. He is pathetic, for sure. He's very pathetic. That's part of his character. the they he He lacks...
00:39:05
Speaker
I don't know. the there's I don't feel like there's enough empathy feel sorry for him. yeah No, definitely not. like like The patheticness comes from the empathetic. like like You feel bad for him, and I don't think anybody feels bad for Joffrey ever.
00:39:26
Speaker
No. um yeah Do we feel bad for Amy, though, at any point? now? I mean, maybe in the past we did, but do we now have any no any bad feelings? No, absolutely not. To bring it back to everything. Like, you could you could really...
00:39:47
Speaker
you could really make... I don't know. I still think there is some level of, like, in-universe, the patheticness level.
00:39:57
Speaker
And, you know, even even extra, like, us reading it, metatextually, like, She is a girl who is smaller of stature, weaker of frame, like not outgoing. Like she is but she is like on just a base level.
00:40:19
Speaker
She, she, she's Victoria's rapist. And yeah, like it's one of those, it's I'll go back holes. The movie holes.
00:40:32
Speaker
If you remember one the big differences in the book, ah Stanley is a huge guy. ah He's a huge, he's a little overweight when he starts. And he is bullied by this really small kid at the school.
00:40:46
Speaker
And it's kind of like, even though people see it and acknowledge it, they don't believe like accept it because the kid's so tiny compared to Stanley himself. How can... You know... You can't be bullied by him. He's like a 30-year size.
00:41:03
Speaker
um Yeah. And this feels like one of those... like She's just... Yeah. it's it's She gets a pass. Not a pass, but...
00:41:15
Speaker
there's some weird, like, yeah, she is more pathetic. And yeah. i just Yeah. well and from, from other people, right? Not Victoria and those who are close to Victoria, but from other people, Amy does almost get a pass sometimes.
00:41:30
Speaker
where like we saw with Eric, that was part of why it was so frustrating is Eric's like, well, maybe I'd like to see things from her point of view, you know? And we're like, no, why? No, you don't need to see things from her point of view to understand she's a terrible person.
00:41:42
Speaker
um Yes. Hannah, Hannah on the delay wrote and said, Joffrey. um as well. so Rand had a good one in chat as well with Gollum.
00:41:53
Speaker
I thought as a great example of a... Gollum's a great example. You do feel some empathy for Gollum as you're meant to. you know You just gotta forget that in the book version he may have eaten babies.
00:42:07
Speaker
Right. Totally did. Maybe we'll find out in the new Gollum movie. Generally agreed upon bad thing to do eating babies.
00:42:19
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, pity is like literally a whole plot point with Solomon. Yeah. allloman yeah yeah it's that's I don't know why I didn't think about that earlier. Classic example. Great example.
00:42:30
Speaker
Um... Mad Hatter. Uh... I don't know. don't know enough about Alice for to know. Well, I was going to say, I know from books. No, but they is that a DC character too? Cause that could be a comic book character.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yes. I was going to say like, I didn't think the Mad Hatter was a villain. i know fran You're absolutely right. Cause the Mad Hatter is sort of a, a short, um, you know, the shorter guy, ginger hair,
00:43:03
Speaker
ah you know, no yeah yeah kind of none of batman boldkin but yeah not I don't know. Right. They had something against gingers there, um but ah you know, kind unattractive. And his thing is he puts the hats on people and mind controls them.
00:43:20
Speaker
It's like the band with the mind control thing. And it's ultimately to, you know, make this one girl, his Alice, which is very creepy. And, but you know, he is just a little guy.
00:43:35
Speaker
And... Just a little guy. I don't think Batman ever treats him like that, at least not in the later ones. Maybe maybe in some early, like, you know, Silver Age of comics.
00:43:47
Speaker
ah Yeah. I mean, there's there's lots of moments like that. I feel like Batman, through different eras, has done that well, right? Like, you've got the Riddler, who has that moment where he realizes he can't not turn things into a riddle and give himself away. It's like, there's that part of him that doesn't want to do crime.
00:44:04
Speaker
ah and so he, he always gives himself away and he realizes like there's a famous, I think it's a comic strip or a scene from the animated show. One of the two where he's like, I actually didn't even mean to make that a riddle. Maybe I, maybe I do have a problem. Maybe I do need help. Like when he finally admits, he's like, Oh, I'm, I might be crazy.
00:44:25
Speaker
You know, like you have those moments with a lot of Batman characters, I feel like in particular. um Yeah. Um, well, Yeah. yes But Amy does agree to go to therapy. So the question is, which therapist does Victoria want to set Amy up with?
00:44:46
Speaker
it's it it's it dark Is it Darnell? It's gotta be Darnell. Darnell? Dr. D? Yeah. yeah Big D? Because I feel like Jessica's out of it, right? She she would not be with Amy. you know yeah it's It's like watching Ronaldo play. It's like, yeah. like yeah ah i knew I knew the World Cup reference would get in there somewhere.
00:45:11
Speaker
yeah That's funny. I can't go a whole podcast without without a World Cup reference. It's true. It's true. Apparently, Ronaldo is my son's favorite player. I didn't even know he knew who Ronaldo was. we You really got to wean him off of that. I've been trying to encourage him.
00:45:28
Speaker
You really got to wean him off all the players. The most problematic one. A real Amy-type situation. ifrefore it's really It's really only because apparently, and this is what he told me recently, is that one of his friends at school went to a camp with Ronaldo.
00:45:52
Speaker
And so like because one of his friends at school likes Ronaldo a lot, now he likes him. but I've been trying to push him, though. like Even today, I was like, you know, Charlie, Messi just scored a goal and broke a record. He was like, oh, cool.
00:46:07
Speaker
where's Ronaldo? Yeah. Ronaldo. I was like, oh, you know, Mbappe is pretty good in the French team. And he's like, oh, look at that. Mbappe scored, you know, oh we don't need to, we don't need to give them to the French. That's fine.
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah. I can carry it away. Yeah. Yeah. Um, i get carried who away are yeah um
00:46:27
Speaker
There you go. i'll be I'll try to introduce him to to Holland later. Yeah, I mean, if it comes down to it, you just show him the news clippings and be like, look, Ronaldo should be maybe in prison. Who knows?
00:46:40
Speaker
i i don't I don't follow. Apparently, I i i mean, who know who knows what kids at school say? I'm i'm hearing this secondhand from elementary students, and I know what I told my friends in elementary school. Yeah.
00:46:58
Speaker
yeah exactly yeah yeah
00:47:03
Speaker
exactly exactly all right the end of chapter 17.8 i have a good question for us to ask all right how has ah how have you seen victoria change since she's become in sync with the wretch and when do you think that like started happening what was the process Because we know what it looks like power-wise, kind of. Yeah.
00:47:31
Speaker
Yeah, she's cutting a much more aggressive vibe, I feel like, in the past couple of arcs. um Since, pretty much since the crystal incursion, where she broke Teacher's Crystal, um it's felt a bit more aggressive and impulsive.
00:47:47
Speaker
A bit more like...
00:47:51
Speaker
It's... Here's the vibe I get is, um speaking of like other characters, you know, the character and I can't think of a specific one, but there are so many examples of this, I'm sure, where they appear under control on the surface, but then underneath, like they're, they're moments away from snapping. Right.
00:48:10
Speaker
um It's like a good yeah considers herself a lot of the time. Yes. A good example might be ah Kingpin from the Daredevil Netflix series, where it's like he has that demeanor of calm, but the moment something goes wrong, he flips a switch and he's you know smashing somebody's head with a car door.
00:48:29
Speaker
you know It's like a very... very under the surface anger and impulsivity and I feel like that's where Victoria is now. It's not quite that bad but it's it's close, right? Where it's like, okay, you you have this calm demeanor but I feel like people are starting to see through it. It's starting to crack, especially with Eric.
00:48:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. If we had more time left, I would, i would almost expect a crash out of some kind. So we'd have time for like some recovery at the end, but I know we're getting close and that's kind of the weird meta knowledge we have are getting close to the end.
00:49:06
Speaker
Like I don't, I don't see her losing control. Not, not maybe a little bit, but not like a whole character moment this late into the story. It feels rushed.
00:49:18
Speaker
I'm not quite quite sure i I still expect a crash out. um I still expect... i'm I'm still riding the train of, like...
00:49:29
Speaker
ah Victoria's gonna be a problem by the end of the story. I'm not sure if she will or not, but I'm riding the train of that, right? um So, yeah.
00:49:43
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah, I've been seeing, like...
00:49:48
Speaker
the the concept of like, uh, you know, you were talking about, you have all these rules or like the, the demeanor that you put on. Um, and I think that's more than just a demeanor for Victoria.
00:50:03
Speaker
I think she has started, ah she's always lived according to sets of rules. Um, um, and And that's been who she is. And we see that in the different names that she like gives herself that are very categorical.
00:50:20
Speaker
um She loves the structured, ah the, you know, I'm not going to say by the book, but she, she, it is, you know, structured, I guess is the word I would use.
00:50:36
Speaker
And as we've gone from what th thought out planned some sort of methodology to how she does stuff. We are now getting into something that she's not ever done in her life, really, which is be instinctual
00:50:56
Speaker
to like, not just say, Oh, I have a gut feeling and I've got to do the math on that before I can, you know, add that up. So we get the correct number and maybe I'll do my gut feeling.
00:51:08
Speaker
Now she's just kind of, the gut feeling says something and then she does it, which, you know, the gut in this case might be the shard.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, the constant question is now the question of, are these thoughts mine? Are they the shard? You know?
00:51:35
Speaker
Yeah. and And Bernard says she's less aggressive than glory girl days. when I say aggressive, I don't necessarily mean in action. I mean more in attitude. Um, and of course we didn't have, we did not have internal dialogue for Victoria and worm.
00:51:54
Speaker
Um, but I'm talking even more just from ward where like, I feel like the internal dialogue has gotten more aggressive, uh, over time. Obviously situations have gotten more tense too. So there's that, but, perfect yeah you know,
00:52:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird. I don't... i'm I'm unsure where her character arc is going, and I'm curious how Wildbo plans to wrap it up.
00:52:20
Speaker
taylor Taylor's arc felt a lot more predetermined, even though I couldn't have guessed the ending coming from a mile away. Like, it still felt very natural as it unfolded. Yeah, yeah.
00:52:36
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I'm interested to see where it goes. For sure. Well, on 17.9, perhaps. Oh, wait, I gotta i forgot. I've got to give Hannah's spiel before about... um about tattletail Tattletail is the best. Tattletail carries everybody on her shoulders. ah Let's see.
00:52:57
Speaker
um Tattletail has literally her own team, a child daycare center that she's running, um joint task operation with breakthroughs. So she's basically running, you know, that. And then also working with the wards bullshit on top of trying to coordinate, you know, between every other group that she's like associated with.
00:53:20
Speaker
um And like we said, while trying to raise one child and run daycare for the rest of them, um all of which are essentially like the worst of Juvie. So she she is a saint.
00:53:35
Speaker
Her patience knows no end. And she is the best.
00:53:42
Speaker
i know Hannah wanted to say that. um and And she's right. Saint Cattletail all the way. In shard heaven, Saint Tattletail will be at the doors.
00:53:56
Speaker
Got it, son. All right, now 17.9. problem Problem with Tattletail being the the gatekeeper to heaven is she'll know everything that we did, so. I mean...
00:54:10
Speaker
You know... The boys walk up, just don't even try. Don't even try. Yeah. It's like, I love all the memes that are like, me and the boys outside the gate gates to heaven while our group chat plays on the big screen. yeah yeah And Hannah catching up with this is Victoria is so aggressive, ah so sure of her rightness, kind of feeling that she's the only one that can solve things. Like she's the glue or the linchpin.
00:54:38
Speaker
Like she is so sure of herself to be that cocky. Hannah does not like it. I personally think that all of those things would be true if she was Tattletail, but she's not. um Also, my thoughts are that Victoria will not have a major blow up, but a small ones. Nothing kept resized.
00:54:55
Speaker
Also, the way ah Hannah describes Victoria there sounds an awful lot like Amy. They are. Yeah. Some pretty similar perspectives right now.
00:55:07
Speaker
They are siblings. And again, it's it's that funny moment where with Taylor, Taylor believes she was right, but it never quite came across as cocky because she usually was like 99% the time. if you're If you are right, it's fine. You can get away with it.
00:55:26
Speaker
I feel like with with Victoria, the issue that we run into is it's a lot less certainty on her part and a lot less common that she is actually right. With Victoria, with Taylor, it's more like this is right. And she can point to a specific thing. With Victoria, she's more like something weird's going on, guys. And everybody's like, you're just vibe like these are just vibes, of Victoria. We need more than vibes. And she's like, no, no.
00:55:51
Speaker
Listen to me. I've got something I've got a theory, you know. and So, yeah. Not that it's bad writing necessarily. or It's just different different characters, which is interesting.
00:56:03
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. and All right. 17.9, shall we? 1F.
Influence of Contessa and Strategic Insights
00:56:10
Speaker
Victoria takes some time to calm down, gets a call from her dad, and then gets a call from Tattletail.
00:56:17
Speaker
The two of them discuss the various threats and suspect Contessa of manipulating things. Well, well, well. The conversation with Mark.
00:56:29
Speaker
I don't know how I feel about the conversation with Mark. Like, I sympathize with Victoria so much, but man, I did not like her here.
00:56:43
Speaker
was like, you, listen, Victoria, if you want Amy dead, do it yourself. I'm trying to guilt trip the one man whose mind has probably been shattered by Amy at this point.
00:56:55
Speaker
Like, God, it just it just felt so slimy. I was just not a fan of the language. Yeah. Yeah. i I get it.
00:57:08
Speaker
And I get wanting to have someone close to Amy you can trust to do what needs to be done. it just...
00:57:17
Speaker
She doesn't explain it well. And I know she's at the point, this is what I mean where she's like, I have no fucks left to give, or I have like three left to give and Mark doesn't get one. Amy doesn't get one. So she's not, you know, couching her language in cushy terms to make it more palatable.
00:57:35
Speaker
um
00:57:39
Speaker
Yeah. And it's like, man, cause I, yeah, I don't know. I, I feel like I say this every time this family comes up and I'm like, as a parent, um, as a parent though, the idea of being faced with the concept of needing to end the life of one of my children is, ah is so out there that I can't even comprehend what that would feel like to have to truly contemplate, you know? Um,
00:58:15
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm i'm just like, i I just can't even imagine. Like, I get it. We dislike Amy. oh man. Victoria, though. that i I do think this this lends a lot of ammo to the idea that this, I think, ward will probably end with Victoria killing Amy.
00:58:37
Speaker
I don't see another way. Or maybe some... Maybe some like death adjacent, you know, locking her in a dimension that she'll never escape from or something like that, you know, but you think she, uh, shoot. What's the, what's the Superman comic where he like snaps.
00:58:58
Speaker
The one dude's neck. I think you're thinking of Manistee. Oh yeah, that's the movie. Manistee. Victoria flying up behind Amy and just... Yeah. Just going for her.
00:59:10
Speaker
yeah just going yeah yeah Or just, you know, with her vector arms from ah freaking Elfin lead just, you know, lobotomizing Amy real quick. yeah just Yeah. I will say, though, I will say, though, I do think to bring in a little bit from future arcs in the bit in the interlude where we see Mark talking to Amy about how important this is.
00:59:33
Speaker
Although Victoria maybe took too aggressive attack with Mark, I do wonder if that made Mark realize, oh, Victoria is very serious about this. And I'm not going to be the one to kill Amy, but Victoria will be. And I need to make sure that doesn't happen.
00:59:50
Speaker
um And so he does take it seriously enough to say, hey Amy, this isn't just one thing. you know This isn't just one therapy session. You promise to go to the next one, which is a promise to go to the next one, which is a promise to go to the next one. like You need help and you have to promise ah promise that too. Oh, man. Yeah. um u So I wonder, though, if if that was effective in that sense, right? like I don't know if it was the right way to take it, but it did work.
01:00:24
Speaker
Question mark? Yeah, right. yeah Yeah, I mean, i mean in comparison, like we have another set of siblings that have problems um with Tristan and Byron.
01:00:39
Speaker
At face value, because of not only did ah they you know they're yeah really get into a fight before, but then Tristan straight up fakes his brother's death you know for a while.
01:00:53
Speaker
um and then that comes out. ah his family's not on great terms with him. And, you know, he didn't kill him, but he did was pretty bad.
01:01:09
Speaker
But Amy raped Victoria and everybody's just kind of, mid about it and that that's like I don't feel like there's really a level here that Victoria can't yell at Mark and be like if she if my my demands are that she goes to therapy or you shoot her I feel like is pretty acceptable um Like, I think shooting a her should be, it should be, uh, shoot her unless, of course, she goes to therapy as, like, the sub to that.
01:01:44
Speaker
Um, I'm always pro, you know, like, we need to take out Amy, but.
01:01:53
Speaker
It's hard to see a ah Well, for me, it's impossible to see a path where forgiveness is on the table of any kind. And then it's hard for me to even see a path where like acceptance is on the table.
01:02:06
Speaker
Where Victoria's like, I've grown and matured and I've moved beyond it and i'll never just I'll just never speak to Amy again. like i don't even like That doesn't even feel... viable at this point. Because that's what she wanted. She wanted to never speak to Amy again. yeah Yeah. And truthfully, she could probably find a way to do that, but it also involves cutting out, like, all of her family and ah all this other stuff that's Amy adjacent.
01:02:33
Speaker
Yeah, i I feel like forgiveness and reconciliation is the lie that Victoria and Mark are using to convince Amy to do the right thing at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
01:02:46
Speaker
i don't I don't care how it happens, but Amy's got to be dealt with. Yeah. yeah because Because I think ultimately the goal would basically be... um The ultimate goal would be Amy realizing she doesn't deserve reconciliation. Yeah.
01:03:06
Speaker
For real. Coming to that realization on her own. right but the The real answer is that Amy like on the flow says amy goes, i I did a really bad thing.
01:03:19
Speaker
And it is something for which I cannot make up.
01:03:26
Speaker
and And that is really the the like and don't know the accepting part of it. ah if she'd had that a long time ago, then her character might end up being a sympathetic character, but she just will never.
01:03:47
Speaker
Yep. Pretty much. Yep.
01:03:53
Speaker
Yeah. Some, well, aside from that conversation, we have the conversation with Tattletail about potential threats. um which they land eventually on Contessa and the anti-parahumans because those are the things that nobody's paying attention to. And Victoria has this gut feeling the real threat will come from something nobody's paying attention to, right? It's not Amy. It's not the obvious things.
01:04:17
Speaker
and It's something else. Coiled sniper. Coiled sniper. I mean, every time. a in if we're thinking about the last end of the world, how we try to, uh, how we tried to stop the end of the world from happening before with Jack slash the secret was yet, get a non pair human to do it.
01:04:40
Speaker
Yeah. yeah And in this case, uh, same rule kinds of ah kind of applies, but for fucking everything up.
01:04:50
Speaker
Yep. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. so ah interesting. Yeah, so there're the other threats, right? They mentioned the Machine Army, of course. That's a constant potential.
01:05:03
Speaker
um We've got, though, ah Fran pointed out there's some cool three blasphemies lore where we find out that the three blasphemies could have been, like, the ten blasphemies.
01:05:16
Speaker
um And a very unique trigger where you have... People in different countries around the world building the exact same thing with no connection to the other people. I did like that. Thank you for calling that out. And that the blasphemies are tinkers.
01:05:34
Speaker
Yes, and they're all tinkers. um But then they build something almost perfectly identical, Tattletail says, which is an interesting ah thing. They are a threat, but... ah
01:05:50
Speaker
we don't know much about them. Uh, other than that, a sleeper also has been, ah not put down, but quelled. We hear, um, legend fucking blast the shit out of them.
01:06:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah love Yeah, it's like, i love this line. Sleeper, restless, but still around. Earth, Zayin in the palm of his hand.
01:06:14
Speaker
He started to emerge. Legend faced him down. How leveled about 30 square kilometers of city. but I feel like Legend's entire existence is just repeated moments where he just goes, please, sensei.
01:06:28
Speaker
Let me go out loud just this once. Just this once. That's his whole lore. And then he does. Yeah. yeah something Which I love the idea that this still fits in with the idea that Sleeper, his power is just convincing others he's super scary. And and so they hear he's moving.
01:06:48
Speaker
he like yeah he like opens the hatch to a secret underground bunker, sees Legend. Legend just destroys the city. He just closes the hatch and like, well, going back to sleep. Yeah.
01:06:59
Speaker
no nope nope nope I do love that theory I do it's true probably not true but but if he never appears again then I say i say the theory holds yeah you know and nothing to contradict it yeah Alright.
01:07:17
Speaker
Contessa, is she a problem? Let me get to Contessa. The answer is yes. I i like how they finally... I think we mentioned this last time, and we kind of just got off of it, but I like that they kind of bring it up here subtly again, but like...
01:07:30
Speaker
I like that they finally asked themselves, wait a minute, was Contessa just bullshitting us when she was giving us those prophecies? Or like, like here's your possible scenario. It's the only way out. And Tattletail was like, probably. I mean, she just says whatever she needs to to make sure she survives to the next day. and like You know, as master her bullshitter. Yeah. Exactly.
01:07:50
Speaker
I was like, yeah. As a fellow thinker myself. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, oof. Yeah. Yeah. and Tessa being the threat. And we get we can get into 710 too now, I think, because this is where we find you know more perspectives where Tattletail explains how her power works.
01:08:09
Speaker
Citrine explains, which again makes a lot of sense. But let me read 1710 and then I think we can wrap up the pre-interlude portion with this. Um, 1710 says, Tattletail explains Contessa's power as hot lava you need to work around.
01:08:26
Speaker
Citrine explains Contessa is a child that never got to grow up. Victoria stands up to Eric with Citrine's help and asks about the anti-parahumans.
01:08:38
Speaker
Um, yeah, i I feel like, um, That explanation from Citrine makes a ton of sense. if If since the time you were 11, you could simply ask the question, how do I get what I want today?
01:08:57
Speaker
And always get what you want perfectly every time. What kind of a person would you grow up to be? Yeah. Obviously, Contessa and Dr. Mother saved the world, you could say.
01:09:11
Speaker
um but Yeah, I don't know. It's um very interesting. I mean, the fact that her whole her whole like dream is just like being on a beach with no powers.
01:09:25
Speaker
she yes Yeah. It's so simple and just honestly... pathetic if you really want to go there. no i tell me Tell me that isn't also like but Tattletail's dream.
01:09:41
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think, I feel like especially with thinker powers, that's got to be their dream, right? It's like, yeah I really just want brain silence and not to think for a day, you know? Yeah. Yeah. um But, you it yeah.
01:09:59
Speaker
Man, you know what? what Who was it? um originally who became Hatchetface, who was the who is the power ah absorber?
01:10:10
Speaker
um Oh, no, it it was a
01:10:15
Speaker
Leatherface or something like that. It's, you know, thenout yeah already a stalker, already a like a villain dude with... dude dude um with No, Hatchetface was the original. or was Oh, was Hatchetface the original? and then Yeah, you were he was the original, where he okay just kept walking people. Hackjob, I think, is the... Oh, Hackjob, you're right. Because it was Hatchetface with um the the teleport-y guy strapped to his back.
01:10:43
Speaker
ah Yeah. The Ash teleporter. What was his name? Oni? Oni. Oni Lee. Oni Lee. That's it. You're right. yeah Hack job. So Hatchetface really could have just opened up like a spa resort for thinkers.
01:10:59
Speaker
It's been like could made it could have made a killing. Come get a massage in the sauna or be in my you'll be in my range. power We have another guy like that. We have Contender.
01:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, Contender. It could have been I forgot about him. Placid. Placid. So yeah. stop yeah So, yes. yeah Welcome. Welcome to Placid's Parlor.
01:11:24
Speaker
yeah you know, he just high-end
01:11:28
Speaker
you know, for those who need to get away from themselves. Right, because it's only one at a time, right? So he has to be like, yeah all right you you have to book me for a day. is Exactly. And like the real top-end thinkers, like Accord, would like, you know, I just need to get away from myself and my powers for a little bit. So you go into the room and he essentially activates his little deprivation chamber.
01:11:52
Speaker
Yeah. like Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Mm-mm. It's great idea. It's great idea. Yeah. yeah Yeah. Yeah. So they eventually land on the anti-parahumans as being the potential problem because that's where nobody's looking.
01:12:12
Speaker
And Victoria's had this sense of that's where we need to look.
01:12:18
Speaker
Yeah. Clever girl. yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's on to something. hmm. A little too late. And of course, that coincides with where Contessa because Contessa was getting tea was a arresting teacher from Earth shit, with the and you know which is where the anti-perihemons are.
01:12:39
Speaker
yeah Is this the chapter where we find out how eric ah that Eric got into university? Or is that in the next one? We found out he...
01:12:52
Speaker
That may be this one, because this is where, you know, no, I think that was the last one where, um because Kinsey's like, I can dig up some dirt on him if you want. And Victoria's like, no, don't tell me. And she's like, no, don't do that. And Kinsey's like, oh, too late. Already did.
01:13:07
Speaker
and Victoria's like, don't tell me. Tattletail tells her anyway. yeah Which is a great moment. I forgot about that. Yeah, we do find out he got into university.
01:13:19
Speaker
Literally took her spot. That bitch. I like that Eric is just written to be hated from every angle. Oh my God. It's he that like he was, he doesn't even have the advantage of like, uh, uh, uh, what's the Mr. Nieves character. Yeah. Gary.
01:13:44
Speaker
Yeah. He, Eric just lucks out by being on the good guy's side. And somehow is still a bitch throwing through. I hope he becomes, ah I hope he actually, hope he lives and he becomes the the president at the end.
01:14:00
Speaker
When all the dust settles, Eric's just in charge. No, they, they, they don't need that. Not, not after the end of the world.
01:14:12
Speaker
um Yeah. ah Anything else for that?
01:14:20
Speaker
no a good Good conversation. i did I did like this conversation a lot. Tattletail's great. I like her getting into the weeds of how other people's power works. It's always fun. Even though we've kind of known Contessa's powers in and out, still hearing it explained is always fun.
01:14:37
Speaker
Yeah. I will say, i just a brief observation, I don't know if this is just me, but I feel like chat is a few minutes behind. They're like two minutes behind. Okay. Okay.
01:14:48
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know if that's normal, how far behind they are, but... It's not. Hannah said that it's jumping. Like, it's like stopping and jumping. Oh, no.
Major Malfunctions Interlude and Power Dynamics
01:14:58
Speaker
Oh, it's unfortunate.
01:15:00
Speaker
A night of technical difficulties. Alas, what can you do? I only noticed because we were talking about something and then somebody said Oni Lee. and i was like, oh, they must be answering something we said a couple minutes ago. Yeah, yeah.
01:15:14
Speaker
different people went guess just Different amounts of time behind as well. But it was buffering a good amount in the beginning. it's It's solid now. Okay. okay There's a pretty good storm above us at the moment. So yeah. yeah What's going on?
01:15:32
Speaker
up Into the Outerludes. Mm-hmm.
01:15:40
Speaker
Indubitably. Um, 17.X, Interlude, The Major Malfunctions, Part 1. The malfunctions try to keep the peace at the portal to shit.
01:15:52
Speaker
Flashback to withdrawal and finale's triggers into the forming of the team. Shit's doors open when Contessa comes through.
01:16:04
Speaker
Alright. Um, I do like the malfunctions. Uh, I mean, in terms of like very rapid sympathy moments, this is fascinating. I will say, though, something I caught, and I i think this was purposeful, I hope, was The way that these interludes are set up seems to mimic the memories that the shards might take, right? So the shards focus on conflict or critical moments. So what are we getting? We're getting the current time, which is a shard moment, obviously.
01:16:39
Speaker
Their trigger, which is a shard moment. And then it's labeled a critical moment, right? Which could easily be like... this is a turning point for this character, but that is the type of thing the shards might hold on to in terms of what shards take as the data.
01:16:56
Speaker
So, yeah, yeah, I thought that was kind of a fascinating way of looking at it as if we're looking at the characters through their shard experience in a way.
01:17:07
Speaker
Like this is what would be left if they got cloned by um Valkyrie.
01:17:14
Speaker
Very interesting. Yeah. I like that.
01:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, um great triggers. Classic. Classic triggers at this point, but always fun to read.
01:17:31
Speaker
i think it's hard. It's just like, i want these chapters, i want these triggers in these chapters like way earlier. So I can... care about these guys a bit more. Yeah. And I do. Yeah. They popped up. They popped up from time to time and they've always been fun and and we like them and everything. So it's still like a sad couple chapters. But like I keep thinking back to we got a couple interludes with the wards before ah Leviathan.
01:18:02
Speaker
We got an entire arc for the Travelers before, you know, they're really all of their stuff went down. So like Comparatively, it was like it was so much easier to ah empathize with those characters when shit hit the fan.
01:18:19
Speaker
So it's just kind of hard to be like, oh, here's the background for these characters that were kind of cool. I like them, they're gone. so okay Or mostly gone. I don't know yeah exactly who's looking it out here. but It seemed like three of the four got out.
01:18:36
Speaker
Yeah.
01:18:38
Speaker
Fumehood. Yeah, I guess. where Well, yeah, Fumehood's a goner. um it's The rest may have made it out. It's hard to it's hard to tell exactly. It's hard to tell. if they did yeah i mean Because it's from Fumehood's perspective and her perspective shifts ah very yeah very suddenly, of course.
01:18:58
Speaker
um Yeah. but I guess we'll we'll see on them. But either way, it's just, yeah, it's, they're good chapters. I do, I liked, I like reading about characters in general and kind of their triggers and how they came to be and how they got their specific powers and all that kind of stuff is always, is always really fun, but just not enough time with them. Yeah. ready to really care Yeah. yeah Finale's trigger kind of reminds me of Victoria's in the sense that,
01:19:24
Speaker
oh lash Yeah, well, it's very Whiplash-coated, which is hilarious. It's so funny. Yeah. it's great Except it's it's so similar in the sense of on its surface, right, you think about like what what other people's triggers have been. It's like, oh, my abusive dad was raping my mom in front of me and I i killed him with my powers. Or, you know i i watched you know, I watched as my whole family was killed in front of me.
01:19:53
Speaker
And finales is like, I got tricked into doing a drum solo at a fancy concert and got ashamed so badly. I triggered. Everybody hated myself.
01:20:05
Speaker
Yeah. Everybody hated my drum solo. So I triggered. yeah Which is like Victoria's it again, not that it's not serious, but Victoria's being like, I was playing a basketball game and my parents didn't love me enough.
01:20:19
Speaker
yeah And I, and a girl pushed Yeah. yeah it's like It's funny. I completely agree. But I do think it's it's a fun it's a fun way.
01:20:31
Speaker
not a fun way. a yeah A way of um kind of illustrating that fact that like, ah you know, everybody's worst day is their worst day regardless. Like you can't compare promas, you know?
01:20:47
Speaker
So like somebody's worst day is going to be their worst moment regardless of what anybody else went through. Right. So... it all it all could make sense that way exactly but i agree on the outside uh i did like i did like finale's uh backstory was i was laughing yeah yeah compared it to um karyatid getting like paralyzed by her by her foster pair or her mom i couldn't was it her mom okay
01:21:21
Speaker
like I was getting lost if there was like a foster house or something like that. so no So the idea is her mom has a new boyfriend and he hates kids. So she literally drugs the two of them and leaves them in the room so that they don't come out and bother anybody. yeah And yes, stupid, like trap house friends come over and like also hang out.
01:21:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And are weird. And are weird. Yeah, a little little weird. um Yeah. Fran said this is used as ammo for criticism against how Wildbow writes drug addicts.
01:21:59
Speaker
I will say, there's no like... And obviously, you know, drugs do ruin lives. Not saying there isn't. But yeah, there aren't many um like mostly functional drug addicts in Wildbow stories. It's always like...
01:22:13
Speaker
if you're a regular drug user, you're like withdrawal or like period its parents or like the merchants where it's like very, very extreme. Right. Of that. Um, don't know.
01:22:27
Speaker
It is also kind of loose and company. Moose and company, true, true. We knew they do the Mary J mostly. Yeah, yeah, I suppose. I mean, Prancer was terrible beforehand, but Moose is, you know, uh, like, yeah, fine.
01:22:45
Speaker
like yeah fine um yeah, it is it it is very, very funny that Withdrawal was a drug addict and named, that's his hero name, is Withdrawal.
01:22:59
Speaker
And he has syringe powers. like let's ah a a Really tackling the the addiction head-on, you know? what is it Yeah, yeah. empire require Right. yeah um Fabulous.
01:23:15
Speaker
I mean, all I can think of is we have a friend who ah you know, was a recovering alcoholic and has a, got a cat named it Mimosa. yeah There you go.
01:23:29
Speaker
You know? I get it. I get it. um Yeah, we can get on to 17Y as well, since it's a continuation of the major malfunctions. Yeah. um Contessa takes Teacher.
01:23:43
Speaker
Flashback to Karyatid and Hume Hood's Triggers. Fume Hood is shot, and her second trigger cracks the world and creates more Titans like Kronos.
01:23:56
Speaker
So we get... um This might be in 17Z, but we get a bit more of a picture of what's happening with the Titans, right? It's this idea that the the captain of the ship has died, but the programming is still moving forward to try to complete the cycle of the entities, right? To try to bring all the shards back together to one big ultimate conflict.
01:24:21
Speaker
It's just happening more quickly and more haphazardly because the captain is no longer there. um
01:24:30
Speaker
I wonder if it's even more of like a... um um Yeah, it's very interesting because like Scion was the... But the shards are all individually sentient.
01:24:44
Speaker
So like... yeah So is is it the kind of thing where like a new captain could be chosen, right? and the And the entity can live on and this is like all part of that process, right? Wrap up the current objective, appoint a new captain onto the next...
01:25:05
Speaker
world reality it does kind of feel like if they could all gather up again it would become a new entity right right like like the consciousness of the entity would develop from all the shards coming together but um
01:25:27
Speaker
yeah it's it's interesting to think about how that would work and you almost wonder if like Could a particular shard, like Taylor's shard or Valkyrie's shard, which seemed to function in a small way the same way that the entities did, right, with the administration and the gathering of things, if one of them got turned into one of these titans, could they could they become a new entity in a way?
01:25:55
Speaker
Right. um I don't know. I mean, yeah. yeah Very interesting. So, yeah, we do see, i do love that Fumehood gets this one moment where she's like, I'm going to do something bad one last time.
01:26:11
Speaker
Because she's like summoned this ball of poison gas and realizes she's like, oh, this is black. I haven't made this. And a lot like, this kills people. And then she shoots it at the anti-parahumans and they just all like get
01:26:27
Speaker
What's that? There's a spell from D&D that does that. It's like a really high-level spell where it's just like... It's like Cloud Kill. Cloud Kill, that's what it is. Yeah, Cloud Kill is the one I was thinking of. Yeah.
01:26:38
Speaker
Where it's just like, who dead. Yeah,
01:26:42
Speaker
yeah crazy. yeah i was I was having trouble... envisioning i'm usually pretty good at like mentally envisioning this the scene itself and i was having trouble with this one because i was like why are why are our why are our boys struggling here why is why is the crew unable to handle one guy with a gun i couldn't quite i don't know i just couldn't i couldn't quite wrap my head around the the scene itself i guess
01:27:16
Speaker
it It is hard to... This is one of those moments where I'm like, this is cool lore, and I feel like there's so much I'm probably missing reading it just because it's confusingly written. because the guy it sounded like the guy basically had read up on like all the heroes he might encounter here. So very specifically, like when they started coming after him, me he was like, I know what you do.
01:27:40
Speaker
you know yeah Yeah, exactly. And as we've established, yeah I have a gun. like You can beat most most of the powered people with a gun. What's that? just read Just rewrite that old classic, ah oh, I forget who it was who did the sketch.
01:27:55
Speaker
but you know And it's the the the the martial arts defense against everything. And the answer is just, and then you pull out your gun. Oh, it's, a yeah, it's ah ah Donald, yeah, the Donald Glover crew, I forget what their name, the name of the sketch. Oh, Derek Comedy? It was a Derek Comedy? Derek Comedy, yes. First you establish risk control, see, and then once I have that, then I pull out my gun.
01:28:14
Speaker
He's in his house. He is in his house asleep and he is robbing you for crack. Yeah. Exactly. The anti, anti, parahuman messaging.
01:28:27
Speaker
There you go. Yeah.
Titan Transformations and Power Speculations
01:28:30
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, hey, At the day, none of them are bulletproof. What are they going to do? But hey, if you have a super trigger, I guess.
01:28:43
Speaker
yeah ah you You shot me, eh? I guess I'll turn into a gob then. Here I go triggering again. Yeah, so did we even like, Fume Hood second triggered And it was, i guess, i that was just enough. Let's call it a mega trigger. Yeah. Yeah.
01:29:01
Speaker
Yeah. I think they said at the, or maybe this was someone in the in the comments at the end of the chapter, trying to remember, but it was basically like a combination of a second trigger and a broken trigger at the same time. Yes. and This is the ice that everybody keeps referring to, that we are like, the shard space is like, fragile-y, like,
01:29:23
Speaker
it's in its spot, but it is ready to break at any point in time. Right. And this is that breaking where it is coming through and fully like kind of realizing in this world.
01:29:40
Speaker
Um, it, I imagine that like, if this had happened to cradle cradle would become, ah the Hecaton carries or whatever.
01:29:53
Speaker
Like, just right there, all of a sudden you have a fourth dimensional creature in our third dimension and, you know, the bazillion hands coming out of nowhere just killing people.
01:30:06
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, sort of like somebody getting turned inside out with their power. Right. And it felt like part of what happened is Because it was the... um Because it was the... She deeply concentrated her power so much without realizing it.
01:30:32
Speaker
That was what they were afraid was going to break the ice, was like the usage of a super strong power. And Humehood did that, basically. like She put all of her power into that one black shot. And that kind of snapped it, yeah.
01:30:46
Speaker
And then my understanding of what happens next is basically she falls in, she is kind of given a choice by Shard Space in a way to let Shard Space run rampant or to sort of pull it towards her in a gravitational way.
01:31:02
Speaker
And because she cares about the malfunctions and wants them to escape, she pulls Shard Space gravitationally towards her. So only her and Contessa get caught in it in the end.
01:31:16
Speaker
um is what it sounds like based on that 17 and Z. It sounds like only and Contessa get titanized. Everybody else manages to escape somehow. Yeah, because nobody else has the... Everybody else that was caught up in that didn't have a shard. Yeah.
01:31:37
Speaker
So, yeah. Her yeah and Contessa get... turned inside out with their shards and it manifests in them rather than just a continual broken shard.
01:31:49
Speaker
Like, ah but i I imagine if they didn't essentially localize it to themselves and turn into the Titans, that we would have a break on like a portal level, like just happening right out in the open.
01:32:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Because that's, that's what they talk about is this like, there's a moment where somebody gets like the, uh, in 17 Z they talk about the power and how it, it makes them want to like be sucked into the power. Like there's that temptation to be sucked in.
01:32:24
Speaker
Um, so you're sort of able to control that in a small way. It seems like in in those last moments of consciousness, just depending on how you react to it.
01:32:36
Speaker
Um, yeah. Yeah. So they were able to sort of contain it. Her own can, Mostly Fumehood, it sounds like. We don't get Contessa's perspective. um But it sounds like Fumehood, at least, was able to contain it to herself to a certain extent. You get the sense, too, that Contessa's Titan is also... The way it's worded implies some level of thought or control. It's like... I forget how it's worded. Something about how attempting to communicate via
01:33:07
Speaker
ah via lines or however i I'm butchering the the wording there. But yeah, it's implied there's there's some little bit of thought there. How much? um Honestly, kind of ah ah eerily similar to ah the description we get from Taylor's point of view as Kepri.
01:33:25
Speaker
um at the end where it's just sort of like can't distinguish faces can't speak to anybody can't recognize whether or not it's angry or happy applause like you know yeah it's just sort of blind to the world kind of losing it's you know herself but still still there you know so it's yeah very weird i will say I'm not the well well we'll see where it goes obviously but if if this is Contessa's end A little underwhelming.
01:33:56
Speaker
but i was I was hoping for a little bit more of a showdown with her. ah Well, we know we know that the Titans aren't dead. They're just... yeah they reserve a ah I'm happy to reserve further judgment until the whole thing is resolved, but I'm curious.
01:34:16
Speaker
Yeah. yeah yeah ah To Bernard's question, do you think Fume Hood is still in the Titan or is the Shard controlling her? From the bit we got from the Dauntless Titan from Kronos, it seems like there is a piece of consciousness still in there, but it's so smothered by the impossibility of the existence, it's hard to know how much control they would have.
01:34:42
Speaker
um So there might be, she may be in there, but more as an unwilling passenger rather than as an active participant would be my guess.
01:34:54
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, going back to the Kepri thing, like a combination of the draw of the shard doing its thing and you being so alien from humanity at that point that like you just kind of don't recognize what's going on or what you're doing. Yeah, exactly. But we'll see Don't forget the Simurg is still ah still up there.
01:35:23
Speaker
Yeah. and As was asked, who do you think, we I mean, we talked about this in earlier senses, who do you think we would would become the new entity, essentially? The new pilot, as it were?
01:35:37
Speaker
Bernard asked that. Oh, like the a new, yeah, Captain. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:35:45
Speaker
Good question. I mean, of of what we know, Contessa makes the most sense, I think. Contessa does make the most sense. I mean, we talked about before, just like, of all the people, Valkyrie seemed like, even way back in Worm, like, could resurrect the dead Eden.
01:36:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah, right, right, right. Or become the dead Eden by collecting enough shards, basically. Right. Yeah, yeah. Also, ah just random thought. But Valkyrie was totally present when Eidolon ate And so definitely has Eidolon.
01:36:21
Speaker
Yes, we have seen... She's mentioned that. Okay, she has... like It's Vormnesia, right? Have we seen an Eidolon shadow or clone or anything? I don't think we have.
01:36:33
Speaker
No clone. I think she mentions him at one point in time and basically says... um He's still too much of a bitch.
01:36:45
Speaker
I think actually basically, yeah, she's like, I recovered him, but he's still upset about what happened and he doesn't want to come out basically. I feel like she says something to that effect.
01:36:57
Speaker
I believe it. yeah or Or it's like, it's a combination of that or she's like, plus I know his power is quite dangerous. um Then so we're not going to risk it at this point in time.
01:37:13
Speaker
Makes sense. Yeah. All right. On to 17 Z to wrap us up. yeah Yeah, let's wrap this up. All righty. Interlude various.
01:37:25
Speaker
Eric watches the Titans form. Scribe talks to Victor and Moonsong before Victor turns. Marquis defends Amy from a turned hunter.
01:37:38
Speaker
Moose tries to stop Prancer and gets absorbed. And Eric learns that Scenarial has turned as well. Scenarial. um o Yeah.
01:37:54
Speaker
Oof. Yeah, yeah lots of little vignettes here. I did want to say J-Man made a funny point. Eric thinking Scenarial as his partner is hilarious. Yes, it is.
01:38:07
Speaker
that gives that that that gives big I'm the favorite intern. It gives big ah Dwight from the office energy where it's like, I'm assistant to the regional manager.
01:38:19
Speaker
It's like, all right, dude. Relax. yeah Look here, coffee boy. Yeah. yeah You were not given any decision-making power.
01:38:33
Speaker
Assistants through Y died in Gold Morning. Don't think you're you're that great just because assistant dead survived. What that really bad? ah ah oh god the movie about like the 26th person in line ah the the designated survivor yeah with oh yeah yeah like everybody else who could possibly president died in whatever explosion it was you're all that's left yeah yeah exactly that's eric up In reference to Valkyrie as well, J-Man said she says she doesn't want to use him because she only wants to use good people.
01:39:10
Speaker
um And Valkyrie says that Eidolon's battery is a bit used up as well. So it makes sense. Right, she didn't say that, yeah. Yeah, okay. now Yeah, yeah. Anyways, um so the Titans we end up with that we know about, we have Fumehood, Contessa, Victor, Hunter,
01:39:30
Speaker
And combo moose prancer. Yeah. And scenario. Mooser. Mooser. Yeah. Prince Seuss. as of first Prince. princes Prince. Prince. We don't have that one. I will be honest.
01:39:50
Speaker
That one hurts the most. Yeah. Because.
01:39:56
Speaker
Prancer grew on me by the end. I don't really like him that much, though. I care more about Moose. And Moose, being such a good guy, he's like, Prancer, you can fight it. Like, resist it.
01:40:07
Speaker
And Prancer's like, i don't know, man. i don't think I can. And then Moose is like, all right, well, if you can't fight it, then I'm gonna join up with What a what a guy, Moose.
01:40:19
Speaker
Never leaves a bro behind, literally. ah I don't think he actually wanted to, but you know what i mean. He certainly didn't end for leave him. Yeah. yeah yeah um Certainly, I'm just more sad for Moose because ah this means the fantasy of Moose and Victoria getting together and smashing is not going to happen.
01:40:38
Speaker
Pretty not looking great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not impossible. the odds Not impossible. nothing The odds are... through shit First off, through shards, all things are possible. right then Now, the answer is involved. I don't know if we need that.
01:40:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's a threesome nobody wants. Yeah.
01:41:02
Speaker
Well, I'm sure somebody wants it, but we don't... Hannah is so sad about moose. All capital letters. was waiting for that. Ask her if she's crying. Ask her if she's crying. myself just have poor moose down.
01:41:18
Speaker
Poor moose. Well, as long as we're... To get us off the sad moose train and back to Eric, who is a bitch. um Yeah. Just the way he talks about her.
01:41:30
Speaker
Well, she's probably absorbed a bunch of stuff through osmosis. I mean, she slept with a ward. You mean her boyfriend?
01:41:40
Speaker
Like, just the way he says it makes it sound like a one-off thing. And I had to second guess, like, does he know about the Annalise thing? I was like, no, he's talking about her very long-time boyfriend. Yeah.
01:41:55
Speaker
As if that was just like a nothing to him. Yeah. um And God, I just have what a sexist piece of shit.
01:42:09
Speaker
Like, yeah, he really has the like any. And I i realized that this time around. Anybody that isn't... Any woman that isn't Scenarial, this guy clearly fucking hates. Like... Yeah. And unfortunately for him, that is like most of the people in the room he's dealing with.
01:42:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It reminds me the way he talks. um in In my job, I have to deal with people who don't know what they're talking about, but it's always funny to me when they think they do.
01:42:43
Speaker
And... and in that regard, I've had multiple people say the phrase to the effect of, I don't know how it works where you're from, but in the real world, this is how things work. And I'm like, that's funny.
01:42:57
Speaker
and No, that's not how that works. Actually, you were totally mistaken. And I feel like that's the energy Eric gives is the, he would be the kind of person to say that he's like, I don't know how it works in your world, Victoria, but in the real PRT. And I'm like, okay, dude, you've been with a PRT for like a month. Like chill. Like, you don't know what you're talking about.
01:43:17
Speaker
Like, God, if if only I could hate him more. I yeah only have so much hate in my heart, but, um you know, he he gets a lot of it right now.
01:43:31
Speaker
It's the, it's the very, um you know what it is? Is this the, ah the Umbridge-Voldemort problem right now, where it's like yeah eric and Eric and Amy. It's like, clearly Amy is the worst villain.
01:43:44
Speaker
But in this moment, I hate Eric more. Yes. It is the Umbridge-Voldemort thing, where it's like, clearly Voldemort's the worst villain, but Umbridge, you just hate her so much. On a personal level. yeah and we yeah we all We all hate Amy because she's the worst.
01:44:02
Speaker
We all hate Eric because we all know an Eric. Exactly. It's hard to find an Amy in your life, like somebody that bad. But you know an Eric. You're right. And
01:44:16
Speaker
ah and if you don't know an Eric, are an Eric. oh oh Oh, no. Got him. It's true. Yeah. Nick, it's one of the... If you've ever... at the light you've ever this is the way that the, you know, the I don't know how yeah you think this works, but in the real world, it works like this is often said by somebody who gets away with whatever they're talking about, despite it not being the way that it should work.
Character Criticism and Theoretical Entities
01:44:40
Speaker
Like they are running on, they are the exception that proves the rule to being like, well, yeah, if you like do this, then you'll get what you want. And it's like,
01:44:52
Speaker
that only, that takes an insane amount of like Karen-ness to get away with. And sure, that works for you because people don't want to deal with you. But for real people, they don't have the ah the lunacy to to to ask something so audacious.
01:45:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. um Now it's... ah Yeah, it's it it that's that's part of what makes him so frustrating is exactly that. is it's you know The person who has gotten off enough on being just right enough enough times that he thinks he's always right um or that he always knows best and nobody's really challenged him on it because either they don't care enough or he is more important than they are. um Yeah.
01:45:44
Speaker
Screw Eric. um Speaking of people who always do things right, though, ah poor Victor. um You know, a he was trying to reach out to Scribe and be like, hey, Scribe, you want to catch up? you want to You want to chat like old times? We can be buds.
01:46:03
Speaker
and
01:46:06
Speaker
And then in my wrong time. Yeah, wrong place, wrong time. Scribe bitch.
01:46:13
Speaker
<unk> is is a bitch
01:46:16
Speaker
I think that's that's all it it comes down to. as a Yeah. i that this
01:46:24
Speaker
That sums it up. I did think ah for a moment that Marky Mark was a goner. well Yeah. The one to stay behind, of course, was Mark. And i was like, ah, damn it. Here he goes.
01:46:39
Speaker
Yeah, both both Marks even. We almost lost lost both Marks. Marquis and Mark Mark. we all Yeah, we did almost lose both. ah ah Yeah. that would ah i think I think that what we that's would have been Amy's end.
01:46:55
Speaker
Both her father figures dying. Yeah. Like technically her creations. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oof. Rough.
01:47:07
Speaker
Yeah. But he did get that cool ah ah cool double bounce, the cool ah double double grenade bounce with his orbs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Mark's power a lot.
01:47:19
Speaker
It's great. i I do too, yeah. Yeah, flashbang. what a great What a great power. Him and Marquis. Amy really did luck out with the father figures. Not great people, but cool powers.
01:47:31
Speaker
Very
01:47:37
Speaker
Marquis with the bone stuff and Flashbang with the like bombs of light. to i love i love that they're both like, yeah, we're not really going to fight over Amy. We both recognize that we're both important in her life, so we're just going to be the bigger men and work with her it's like guys i wish you both were heroes because i wish you were on our side yeah yeah but you're not yep
01:48:06
Speaker
um and fran to answer your question after so long we did not get flashbacks yet so uh round to that eventually
01:48:19
Speaker
Yeah, J-Man says they really liked Scribe and Moonsong's interactions. I did like that, too. Not that it redeemed Moonsong, of course, but just that little moment where she's like, no, Scribe.
01:48:32
Speaker
Frick, like, we gotta be better. Like, I'm trying to be better. You gotta be better, too. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's one of those where, like, I've never thought that Moonsong was inherently a bad person.
01:48:50
Speaker
yeah We've talked about the difference between bad people and doing bad things. Obviously does bad things, but Moonsong has always tried to be a good person.
01:49:01
Speaker
And Scribe has started off as a bad person and it's just kind of like... I don't know. Yeah.
01:49:18
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
01:49:21
Speaker
yeah didn't have I didn't have ah ah too much more in these in these interludes, really. um Only to kind of reiterate what you were saying, Nick, would just ah despite what I would consider a ah not as engaging section of chapters, um was a great ending. Very exciting.
01:49:42
Speaker
And i am quite curious to see where it goes from here. Just time yeah how fractured reality really is at this point. Exactly.
01:49:57
Speaker
Exactly. And where the hell is the machine army? yeah they're They're being held off by a giant flesh mommy. They're being freaking, they're being white walkered.
01:50:11
Speaker
Build them up. We're going to get them here at the end. They're going to be defeated for hive mind style with a knife to the back. And, uh,
01:50:24
Speaker
That's going to be it.
01:50:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah i yeah i did Bernard asked, did titanization mean that the characters failed or does it mean they've rejected humanity?
01:50:38
Speaker
As far as I'm aware at this point in the story, neither. Yeah. yeah They are just, I mean, I guess closer to maybe the characters. Yeah.
01:50:54
Speaker
Here's the thing. When you're a vessel for a piece of God, essentially, and then that piece of God decides it wants more than just a piece of you, i don't feel like that's a failure per se. like This is kind of like, oh, here we go. Yeah.
01:51:13
Speaker
<unk>ll get That was a bar, Nick. that is true Thank you. Thank you, Jacob. Fran asks, who else should get turned into a Titan? Your mom.
01:51:24
Speaker
Damn. No hesitation. Narwhal. Who else should be? Narwhal's already a Titan. All right. ah Listen. she She does not need to get hotter.
01:51:38
Speaker
theres ah She's too hot already. now um there's You know what this opened up as a memory for me? Because I knew that oh the jokes about like go on big female Titans come up.
01:51:51
Speaker
it It unlocked this memory from my adolescence. I watched the movie Too Young. The movie Dude, Where's My Car? I don't know if any of you guys have seen that. I know thatly i remember but um my i don't remember it very well.
01:52:06
Speaker
It's the reason that Ashton Kutcher exists. basically So it came out in the year 2000, and it was one of those um goofy comedies that goes off the rail very quickly. Very simple premise, but ends in a very weird place.
01:52:23
Speaker
It's a sonar comedy. Yeah, yeah. um Premise is they had a party. These two guys have a party. They wake up, and the guy can't find his car. He doesn't know what happens. Ends with ah giant alien women trying to take over Earth.
01:52:38
Speaker
so Yep. That's right. A dude movie. yeah Yeah, exactly. um And there's a joke in there.
01:52:49
Speaker
Yeah, there's a joke in there where when the alien woman, who is very attractive, becomes giant, there's a and it's at a carnival scene, there's a joke in there where a little boy is like, Dad, I want to ride that ride! And the dad just goes, Oh, me too, son. Yeah.
01:53:08
Speaker
and Such a long story for that joke, Nick. God That's what this chapter unlocked for me. You know what? A wild boat would have been proud of the length it took to get there. A lot of setup for that. yeah at least At least two arcs.
01:53:34
Speaker
at least at least well Let me describe where I was when I watched the movie first. In the Smasher past here, ah Patreon content, Contessa was my number one, so I had to do Narval as well. That's why i said that.
01:53:48
Speaker
There you go. That's fair. We should definitely do it. Did we do a smash down? I think we did a smash down.
01:53:57
Speaker
what's um yeah ah Bernard asks, what do you think the trigger for Titanification is? I feel like it's... Probably a combination of, from what we've seen, a combination of the same sort of things that would activate a trigger, like the stressing situations.
01:54:23
Speaker
But what it's doing is it's taking your ego in terms of like, you know, yeah, your identity and psyche and whittling that down. So it's, you're at a point where it's very thin and the shard is just sitting on the other side of a thin pane of glass.
01:54:40
Speaker
And eventually you're in a situation where you use your powers and because it's heating up on the other side, it can break through and essentially subsume your person.
01:54:55
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
01:54:57
Speaker
um So the trigger for it, I think, is a combination of factors. um As we've seen, it's happened to ah Fume Hood.
01:55:09
Speaker
It's happened to, what did we have? Victor, Cinarol, um Contessa. under yeah and Hunter. Hunter.
01:55:22
Speaker
Kronos, all people who were, I'll just say, in probably in situations and under a lot of stress like stress and um you know their power being just right under the surface, ready to burst out at any time.
01:55:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think of think part of it is a wrong place, wrong time too. like if you're using If you were using your power when the shattering happened with Fumehood,
01:55:52
Speaker
Because I feel like Moose and Prancer were not in a stressful situation. um Right? They were just in a position of, oh, we're just hanging out. Like, Moose even says we're in a good place.
01:56:05
Speaker
My guess is Prancer started using his power for some reason, and it kind of caught up in the shattering of that one moment. um Not 100% sure, though, but that's a guess.
01:56:16
Speaker
I think, too, yeah, like you said, it's... um
01:56:21
Speaker
What is it? ah
01:56:24
Speaker
It's the same things that lead to triggers, right? But they've talked about how the controlling mechanism of the entities is no longer in place. So that's that's why we get the broken triggers, and that's why now we're getting these titanification triggers, where it seems like this maybe was the end goal of the entities all along, was to...
01:56:44
Speaker
accelerate the conflict using something like broken triggers, using something like the Titans, whatever it might be. But now that the controlling mechanism isn't there, it's just all kind of going haywire.
01:56:55
Speaker
So anytime there would be a second trigger or a potential for something big like that, it manifests in this broken, absurd way. It's kind of the way I'm taking it. Yeah, because you could imagine a world where...
01:57:09
Speaker
the powers, if, if we were more conflict oriented, which is hard to believe for humans since we're literally the most conflict oriented creature on the planet, um, that we would,
01:57:25
Speaker
ah just have like lots of fights with powers and con you know concentrated areas which we kind of did but that that would ramp up to a level of like just how people's powers evolve with them over time that like the siege like the the shard seeds and whatnot would also ramp up. So by the time you got to a third generation of powers, you were supposed to have people who are essentially gods, and they're ripping hope open holes in reality, and everything's falling apart into shard space, and
01:58:04
Speaker
you know and then the planet dissolves. But... and Instead, people tried to organize and be like, whoa, it's some people even were like, i don't want to do that. and and I forget if somebody mentioned this last time or it's just something.
01:58:19
Speaker
I know. I think somebody mentioned this in the discord that like. Even. ah People who were conflict averse like Canary, her power literally.
01:58:33
Speaker
Like made her. get into conflict, like by it wanted to lash out at the most inopportune time. So like you have people that get dragged in, even if they don't, the idea that like their power has a will of its own. So it will drag you into conflict, which is what happened with Canary.
01:58:54
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, cause it does push conflict, right? We do know that to be true. Yeah. That is what they're seeking. Hmm. ah Data through conflict.
01:59:07
Speaker
yeah Where's the cool chill entity that seeks data through cooperation? You know what i mean? tell it that's my That was my ah my theory for Abaddon. He's the reverse entity.
01:59:21
Speaker
He just conquers the lives with love and and chill. and iss All of his shards are all about peace. He creates utopias everywhere he goes.
01:59:33
Speaker
Yeah. I like it. yeah I'll come by and pick up those shards later. Don't even worry, dog. You can just enjoy them while you got them. Tell me about your sweet stories when I come back.
01:59:46
Speaker
Alright, let's see what we have for the docket in two weeks. What's in two weeks? That'll be... The sixth. Let me just make sure there's no World Cup finals or anything.
02:00:02
Speaker
Yeah, right.
02:00:08
Speaker
What is happening on the 6th? Nothing. Probably nothing because I think it's later.
02:00:22
Speaker
All right. In that case, can do arc 18.1 through 18.6? eighteen point one through eighteen point six
02:00:35
Speaker
I like it. think that sounds pretty good. I need to look up. I know there's a shorter arc coming up. actually holding livess Actually, it is this upcoming arc. So we've all been operating at about ah anywhere from like 13, almost to like eleven hundred or not 1100, 114 or 111,000. And this upcoming one will be a drastic drop for us. It's only going to be 85,000 words.
02:01:07
Speaker
Oh, just a small book. Oh, it is. The last time we had something this small was arc eight. All of those were in the 82,000. Gotcha. Yeah.
02:01:18
Speaker
But
02:01:21
Speaker
but yeah, it's lazy. It's going to be a real easy one for us. No problem. 18.1 to 18.6. Let's go. Let's go.
02:01:33
Speaker
And that means we've only got three arcs left.
02:01:40
Speaker
That is crazy. Pretty crazy. well We're closing in here. Also, Fran, the answer you're looking for is I believe they're wrong. They're saying the name that they're thinking of, and it they're thinking of Apollyon, which is actually the helpful entity, and Abaddon was the third one that he wrote about if it came in and ate them all up.
02:02:03
Speaker
ah Abaddon, I believe, Abaddon was the one in... and where I might be mistaken, but I know there's a ah confusion between the two.
02:02:16
Speaker
Abaddon was the one that ah shared shards with Eden. yeah It is Abaddon? Yeah, 100%. Apollyon is the the theorized one. I've never heard about Apollyon.
02:02:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's the apex predator one. Never mind. Okay. I got this confused then. The large universe of worm.
02:02:43
Speaker
what a big universe it is, but thank you so much for watching. Uh, really appreciate all of you out there. Thanks to our patrons. Um, we will be doing that game show soon. And it will be back to do it live. Who knows? Uh, Hannah will come back. We'll pull her out of the shard realm somehow, which means there's hope for moose. You know, if we can pull Hannah out of the shard realm, maybe we can pull moose out too. Um, never know.
02:03:11
Speaker
but Yeah. And hopefully by then I'll get my ah camera situation actually fixed. So, you know, lots and lots of things that could be done. um Yeah. ah and And then we'll see y'all on We say again, the six, the six, those you playing bingo. I got a bingo. I got Jacob as a cinephile. Eric is a bitch pro shoot shooting shooting.
02:03:35
Speaker
Pro-shooting shoot Amy. ah that would I must have had a stroke while I was typing that. Because I know what I put before then and then I changed it to something smaller.
02:03:46
Speaker
ah But yeah, pro-shooting shoot Amy. And Tattletail is best girl. ah We also got Victoria's a bitch. Someone had to look up Proxemics. Amy's a bitch. Someone misunderstands what's happening and Nick goes full teacher-parent.
02:03:58
Speaker
ah But what we missed was someone calling it early. Some theory that we went and got early. Sympathy for Victor, which no one had apparently. Alan Rance.
02:04:09
Speaker
I thought I was pretty, I thought I was pretty self-controlled. considered you Cat on screen. Couldn't do because no camera. Goes past 1030, which we didn't. ah Michael has to reel them in which he did not have to.
02:04:23
Speaker
And the podcast is interrupted for a World Cup update, which we did not do. almost did. Despite crazy game that was going on. No spoilers.
02:04:35
Speaker
Yeah. i like The only reason I didn't is for no spoilers. ah Did I have it pulled up the whole time? Absolutely. Yeah, I was... Pretty sure you would with your camera off.
02:04:47
Speaker
Why wouldn't you? yeah I would have done it with my camera on. I'll tell you that right now. Yeah. i'll give it yeah If it gives anybody a bingo, I did say that I felt bad for Victor. So if that if that gives anyone in the audience a bingo.
02:05:04
Speaker
There you go. There's your chance. All I'm saying is Nick's got to type. Hey, listen.
02:05:14
Speaker
All right, let me play this song, boys. All right.
02:05:40
Speaker
Sometimes, just for fun, I'll cancel my Patreon subscription just so I can have the pleasure of signing up once again.
02:05:54
Speaker
Yeah. Alright, guys. Thanks so much. We will see you on the 6th for the first part of um Arc 18, 1...
02:06:09
Speaker
through six. Thanks again. Bye. by by