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Episode 407: Alex Squadron Respects the Grind
619 Plays1 year ago
Alex Squadron is a sports writer for Slam Magazine and the author of Life in the G: Minor League Basketball and the Relentless Pursuit of the NBA.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Social: @creativenonfiction podcast on IG and Threads
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Podcast Strategy and Support
00:00:00
Speaker
Okay, but listen, C&Fers, I'm not one. For many ads on the show, I don't actively court them. I only do them for usually cross-promotional purposes. Yeah, no taxes involved there, as I am pathologically afraid of the IRS.
00:00:16
Speaker
This show takes a lot of time, as you know, and part of what keeps the lights on is if you maybe, I don't know, consider hiring me to edit your work. My pricing is such that clients often pay me more when it's all said and done. That tells you a lot. A generous editor helps you see what you can't see. Email me and we can start a dialogue, okay? Also, if you want more one-on-one time, I've amended my Patreon tiers, really streamlined them, and it gives you some more of that one-on-one, face-to-face time.
00:00:47
Speaker
New patron and Martin Rosen so just shout out to you and thanks for coming aboard patreon.com slash CNF pod go check it out the tiers the rewards call rewards, I don't know what you get is basically just a structure of Face to FaceTime to talk about whatever you want to talk about about your work and that can be Well, it's up to you
00:01:13
Speaker
You really do have to love the grind because if you're in it for that kind of brief moment of glory, it's pretty fleeting.
Interview with Alex Squadron
00:01:28
Speaker
Oh hey CNF, it's the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to primarily badass writers about the art of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara. Hey listen, if there was a better host, I'd find him. Alex Squadron is here. He's at ASquad510 on Instagram and he's a writer for Slam Magazine and he's the author of Life in the G, Minor League Basketball and the Relentless Pursuit of the NBA.
00:01:58
Speaker
It's published by University of Nebraska Press. There's a rich history of books that chronicle minor league seasons across different sports. It's easy to get access and frankly the relentless pursuit is more interesting than dream fulfilled.
00:02:13
Speaker
Eternal striving is something we can relate to. Striving in the face of not making it is all the more tragic. How many of us have beat our heads against the same fucking wall over and over again, the delusion it takes to believe in yourself utterly?
00:02:30
Speaker
How many times did we quit? Should we quit? I'll never forget getting cut for my division one baseball team and feeling, after some time, grateful. Coach Stone gave me permission to quit after I had reached the limit of my talent. Yes, I regret that I didn't transfer and keep going, but we don't need to open that can of worms. That's better left to the tools of ignorance. My shelved, maybe forever baseball memoir. Anywho,
00:02:59
Speaker
In this conversation, Alex and I talk about access, getting access and respecting the grind of it all. Finding ways to celebrate the success of others as hard as that might be and a whole lot more. In many ways, this was the perfect interview. We've heard of braided essays and this was by its nature, I didn't edit it this way. A braided interview. It just seamlessly moved to
00:03:28
Speaker
Alex's book, and craft stuff, and the book, and writing, and the book, and bullshit. If I could conduct a conversation like this every time I'd be a happy producer, host, or whatever the hell I am, show notes to this episode, and more. All right, bring them to mare.com, hey, where you can also sign up for the monthly rage against the algorithm newsletter, a short riff, four book recommendations, seven links, it literally goes up to 11. A writing prompt, happy hour,
Building an Independent Platform
00:04:04
Speaker
First of the month, no spam. I'm sorry, I'm this way, can't beat it. Okay, but listen, baked into the rager is cultivating a life and platform independent of social media. I know, if I know writers, and I do, we hate promotion and marketing. We just wanna write our books and have them speak for themselves. I shouldn't have to go on a campaign all the time, nor should you. But anyway, we gotta, it's part of the thing, it's part of the job, it's part of being a pro.
00:04:22
Speaker
All you gotta do is give me your email.
00:04:31
Speaker
Anyway, I'm gonna try to make the focus of the newsletter a bit more focused on
00:04:35
Speaker
I don't know, platformy stuff, book marketing stuff. And it would be speaking from experience and what I might dig up in a month. And I'm reaching a new chapter, book pun I know, of this pre-Fontaine biography. And I'm about to shift into a new mode. And that new mode is trying to build interest and momentum once everything is set in type. Deadline is this Monday, depending on when you listen to this, April 15th.
00:05:03
Speaker
So there's going to be a shift in what happens. And so I want to chronicle that as best I can and find things that I think would be helpful to me, but by extension, you. And of course, there is also patreon.com slash cnfpod.
00:05:18
Speaker
And I already teased this a little bit at the top of the show, but depending on your tier, I offer more one-on-one time. Sometimes a lot of one-on-one time. It's a stupid bonkers idea. You'll help keep the podcast lights on, and the upper tiers get more face-to-face time to talk things out.
00:05:34
Speaker
you know patrons have been digging this additive and where the first tier is kind of more of a tip jar with access to the patron threads the other tiers get like a crazy discounted value on actual coaching time with me I think it's pretty cool and the conversations I've had with people seem to have put some juice in the tank and don't we all need the juice
00:05:58
Speaker
All right, parting shot on this being the final podcast before my book deadline. You're really going to dig this conversation with Alex. You know, this was recorded in late December 2020.
00:06:15
Speaker
Breathe, man, it's okay. Breathe, idiot. We recorded this in late December, 2023. So it started off with an end of the year question, and that's where Alex picks up the ball and runs to the other end of the court. Riff.
00:06:47
Speaker
because obviously right around this time is when you start thinking about it, what you're going to do into the new year. Obviously, I'm still trying to promote this book.
00:06:57
Speaker
You know, I want to give it the full attention and, you know, get the most out of this kind of period as I can, but also definitely thinking about book two and kind of capitalizing on, you know, the momentum that this book has and just the experience that I had as well, and now kind of knowing how to navigate that world a little bit better.
00:07:18
Speaker
Uh, I definitely would like to, you know, book one didn't deter me from book two. So I definitely like to pursue another project. And I guess to tease it a little bit, uh, what I've been looking into is something, uh, with international basketball. So, um, a similar lane and a similar story and, you know, kind of a pipeline to the NBA, but obviously a totally different angle than the G league. So, uh, that's kind of what I've been researching and what I've been interested in taking into the new year.
00:07:49
Speaker
Sometimes as writers, and especially when books come out, like the grind of writing the book, reporting the book, and writing the book, it can be really daunting and exhausting, and it can be hard to even try to sit back and actually just kind of enjoy what, and kind of give yourself credit for what happened, because the promotion of it is pretty quick in the window to, quote, sell it.
00:08:14
Speaker
is pretty tight compared to the titanic amount of research and reporting and writing and rewriting and editing that goes into it. So in what ways have you allowed yourself to kind of maybe revel in the accomplishment of having completed such a thing?
Navigating Book Promotion
00:08:28
Speaker
You know, it's funny, I've done a bunch of book events and you hear a lot of the same questions. And the only other person who's asked me that question is Mirren. And we did an event together, Mirren Fader. We did an event together in LA, which was awesome. She's one of my favorite writers. So that was like a dream for me.
00:08:44
Speaker
Wow, are we already gonna do a punch in? Yeah, we're gonna punch in right here. Yes, Mirren Fader, past guest on the show, friend of the pod, fan of the pod, I believe. She put Alex and I in touch, and that's the beauty of this network. She had been on the show to talk about her, Janas Ante de Cumpo, the Greek freak, biography, which became New York Times bestseller, and Mirren is a brilliant feature writer for The Ringer. And she put me in touch with Alex, because Alex has this wonderful new book out, and it is a wonderful book.
00:09:14
Speaker
And isn't that kind of cool? And here it is. He brings up Mirren as someone else who knows what it means to be in the mud, in the grind of it all.
00:09:26
Speaker
And yeah, I think writers understand that it's especially how quickly it moves. Once the book comes out, you're constantly promoting it. If you're not promoting it, you're trying to figure out ways that you can promote it. And it is kind of moving so quickly that it's hard to take a step back and kind of just appreciate
00:09:46
Speaker
what you've accomplished and how far you've come since it was just an idea in your head. I would say just the support that I've gotten from family and friends and yourself and Mirren and all that stuff, I really am doing my best to just take in just how amazing it is and how lucky I am to have that support. Yeah, I've gotten to do a bunch of events and stuff like that.
00:10:15
Speaker
You know having people there who have read it and hearing their feedback all that stuff it really does mean the world to me and I am kind of constantly reminding myself to just take it all in and try to slow the whole process down as much as I can but You're right. It is hard because I don't think people know unless you've written a book
00:10:37
Speaker
just how quickly everything moves once it comes out. And, you know, you don't have many moments to just kind of take a deep breath and be like, this is this is all really cool. So I appreciate that question. Yeah, because even even with, you know, authors of the stature of Jeff Perlman, who's got, you know, 11 or so books written and several bestsellers, even with his Bo Jackson book, I think
00:11:02
Speaker
I think maybe he had like a month in the sun with it and that's like as in terms of in sports writing circles I mean he's as big as it gets and it's just like wow even even a Jeff doing his tour like he's he got like a month after like the years of work and
The Writing Process
00:11:19
Speaker
it's like cool boy you know you really do have to learn how to sit with it and actually really celebrate it because when it's gone it goes quiet and then you're left with just your thoughts again and trying to ramp up a new project
00:11:31
Speaker
It's true. You really do have to love the grind because if you're in it for that kind of brief moment of glory, it's pretty fleeting. So that stuff is great. Don't get me wrong. And it's amazing to just to hear feedback and to know people are reading it. That stuff does feel amazing and it is really rewarding. But if you don't love kind of just that process of actually working on the book because that's, you know, years and
00:12:01
Speaker
hours and hours and late nights and not sleeping and all that kind of stuff. If you don't love that, it's hard to kind of just revel in that month. You really got to be obsessed with the grind as well. To write a book of this nature, you really have to have a love of basketball, just a love of the game itself. Where does your love for basketball stem from? Oh, man. Since I was a kid, I've always
00:12:31
Speaker
love basketball. I've always loved sports. My dad worked in sports pretty much his whole career, a bunch of different jobs and I have two brothers and we were just always huge sports guys. I mean basketball really for me by the time I got to high school was and I played and we grew up huge Knicks fans and I was a
00:12:52
Speaker
you know, similar to the guys in the book that I wrote. As a kid, I was like dreaming of going to the NBA and then you get to, you know, I couldn't have been that old when I realized it was never gonna happen for me. But you know, then it kind of transitions to how can I like maintain this passion and continue to pursue this passion in another way. And I got into writing in high school as well. And
00:13:16
Speaker
It was just like the perfect marriage. If I can write about sports, if I can write about basketball specifically, you know, that was my dream. That became my dream. So I played all my life. I have been a fan all my life and I'm lucky enough now that, you know, it's my job to cover it and write about it.
00:13:33
Speaker
With respect to this book and how you lobbied for access, how did that start? How did you get that ball rolling so you could have a front row seat to an incredible season and experience there?
00:13:47
Speaker
You know, it's crazy because especially when you cover basketball and, you know, mainly if you cover basketball, you're probably focused on the NBA. Access can be very hard. And, you know, I work for SLAM Magazine, which covers really all basketball, but the NBA is, you know, the main thing. And I got used to 10 minutes here, a couple of minutes in the locker room before the game, a couple of minutes after. Even when we had kind of organized sit downs, it was, I would say,
00:14:16
Speaker
It was timed and it was also very much, you know, I sometimes you submit your questions or they're giving you the answers that you'd expect to hear and not really being able to dig deep. And I kind of knew that for this book, I needed to be able to do that and I needed to have full access. And which is why part of the reason I chose the G league in the first place, like it's just not covered extensively. And my experience was that the players and coaches and kind of everybody at that level.
00:14:45
Speaker
like they're all eager to share their stories because they don't really get the opportunity to. You know, I think the fact that I was even willing to move from New York to Birmingham and be with them for the full season. I think that they were pleased that I was down there and they were happy to give me the access. So the process was as simple as like I emailed the
00:15:06
Speaker
uh, head of PR for the team, the Birmingham squadron. And, you know, they did want me to submit kind of a list of like a wish list of everything I wanted to be a part of. I sent it in and heard back not long after that everything had been approved. And then as I'm going through the season, you know, I'm getting even more access than I anticipated because they're opening up to me a little bit. And, you know, you just kind of become a part of the team. So.
00:15:28
Speaker
That's also a huge credit to the organization and the people I was with, but it really was as simple as I asked. I asked for the access and they were willing to give it to me.
00:15:40
Speaker
I had a similar experience with my first book, Six Weeks in Saratoga, about the Saratoga Springs horse racing meet and I followed a cast of characters and it was like getting access to one gave me some credibility to go to the next guy and then I had my sort of core people to follow and
00:16:01
Speaker
and quickly like these people that are kind of used to. Like flying zip ins about reporters you know they you start to kind of blend into the background because you're there every day you just shadowing. You know often time you're even interviewing me do eventually but something you just in the background scribbling away or recording if you're close enough to someone in.
00:16:22
Speaker
And eventually there's like, okay, yeah, if I say something, like it's not going to get blown out of context. Even if I say anything to this guy, it's not going to be published for like a year and a half or two years. It's not going to. So, you know, you just being there every day has so much, so much value. And they're like, okay, this guy's isn't a hit job or hit and run. He's really here to sink in and really experience this with us.
00:16:46
Speaker
Totally. I think that that was, that made a huge difference for me. Just the fact that I was there every day. You know, I was in every film session and I went on most road trips and I went to pretty much every practice.
00:16:59
Speaker
I think once they one get used to you being there and you know you have a lot of conversations off the record and you get to know these guys before you really dig deep you know before you get into the heart of the story you're there for a full season like you said the books not coming out for
00:17:16
Speaker
Uh, at that point I didn't even have a book deal. So I didn't know when it went or if it was going to come out I think just being there, you know, I think that there was a respect for the fact that I was you know willing to kind of go through that grind with them and and then yeah, like just that I was a part of the team and uh I was there every day and going through everything that they were going through so I had a deeper understanding for it and then You know by the time I moved down there in September and then by the time you get to like
00:17:47
Speaker
January, February, you know these guys pretty well. And then I had four main characters I could really start to get into the core of the story and dig deep and ask the harder questions that you maybe wait at the beginning to introduce. So yeah, I had the exact same experience where it was like blending into the background for a little bit, showing up every day. And then the longer you're there, the more comfortable they become with you.
00:18:16
Speaker
asking those questions and, you know, wanting to tell their stories. Yeah. And what can be tricky to navigate also is when you're there all the time, you it's impossible not to become, you know, friendly and even friends with these people you're covering. And, you know, you did you did say a moment ago about, you know, sort of toggling between those like on and off the record conversations. And those can be all the more sort of tricky to navigate when you're there all the time and you're like, all right, are we just talking as like
00:18:46
Speaker
or are we into the journalist source territory? Was that something that was hard for you to navigate or how did you navigate that?
00:18:57
Speaker
Definitely. I think that that was one of the biggest challenges throughout the season because I think when you're around these guys, and I was fortunate, it was just a great group of guys seeing everything they're going through and what that pursuit of the NBA looks like, it's impossible not to root for these guys to make it. But you also, like you said, you got to kind of be careful because while I was getting friendly with these guys and kind of inside maybe rooting for them to make it a little bit,
00:19:24
Speaker
my job was obviously to document exactly what happened and not be impartial and to capture really what the experience was and not allow those relationships or you know any of that stuff to kind of detract from the story. So I think it's just understanding that your number one responsibility is to tell the story as it is and to capture exactly what happens and I think that
00:19:53
Speaker
a lot of times, especially if they're people who are familiar with the media world, the athletes can be kind of understanding of that and that that's your role and that you need to stay true to the story. And so that was hard to navigate for sure. But one, I think I got lucky with just the people that were there. And luckily, I didn't experience anything that I thought was bad and had to be included in the book. And then two, I think,
00:20:20
Speaker
Yeah, there just was just constantly reminding myself and getting close with these guys, but also as an author and not really as a friend, at least throughout the season.
00:20:32
Speaker
How did you go about selecting a core crew of central figures out of the pool that you had access to? I kind of went in with an idea of a few guys that I thought could be good central characters.
Character Selection in 'Life in the G'
00:20:50
Speaker
And I had gotten advice from a mentor of mine, Ben Osborne.
00:20:56
Speaker
editor at SLAM and he was the one who hired me at SLAM and he had written a book about minor league baseball and he had told me before you gotta kind of zero in on you know a handful of characters so that was amazing advice because I feel like I was this is my first book and there was a chance that I'd go down there and just kind of pursue every you're kind of intrigued by all these different stories and you want to pursue all of them so I knew that
00:21:22
Speaker
that was the direction I should go. And it really was and I had an idea, but I went down and I started by interviewing everybody. So I requested kind of a different player every day after practice and would sit on the sideline with each of them and talk for maybe
00:21:37
Speaker
you know, 20 minutes or in some cases longer, some cases a little shorter, uh, and just kind of get a feel for their personality, their journey, you know, their background and their goals and stuff like that. And, uh, it wasn't until I would say a month into the season when I knew for sure that it was that the four that I eventually focused on Jared Harper, Malcolm Hill, Joe Young and Zallin Cheetham, that those were the four.
00:22:05
Speaker
You know, that would make for kind of the best book. And that was obviously before like any of this stuff starts happening throughout the season, which, you know, I don't know how much I want to spoil, but like.
00:22:15
Speaker
those guys really turned into kind of the core of the team. And I had to kind of make that decision before any of that stuff happened. So I also got lucky. And I think really what what eventually sold me on those four is that they all have such different and unique stories. You know, Jared Harper being this incredibly talented but undersized guard who's over always been overlooked.
00:22:39
Speaker
And certainly has the talent to play in the NBA, but, you know, sometimes just when you're that small, it's hard to get noticed and get an opportunity. Malcolm Hill was this kind of unknown prospect who had gone overseas and was kind of off the radar of NBA teams. And now he's back trying to prove himself and his personality is like, he'll do kind of whatever it takes and have adopted this.
00:23:04
Speaker
incredibly rigorous routine to get him to the NBA. Joe Young was the former, you know, NBA second round pick. He played over 100 games in the NBA. And, you know, a handful of mistakes kind of contributed to his fall out of the NBA. And now he was in the G League trying to get back and kind of rewrite his narrative.
00:23:27
Speaker
And Zylin Cheatham was this guy who I just thought had kind of faced every obstacle imaginable, sort of a quintessential minor league sports story in that like he, every time he was so close to making it, something else popped up or, you know, more adversity was thrown his way. So I know that was a really, really long answer. But that was that was kind of how I eventually landed on those four.
00:23:52
Speaker
Well, it's great because what embedded in everything you said, they really embody and even the coach, Coach Pannon, they embody sort of the archetypical profile of the minor league player.
00:24:09
Speaker
trying to either get to the NBA or get back to the NBA or they have strikes against them, be it their histories or reputation or their size. And I feel like you could plug, you could overlay those moles or those filters over just about every player in the G-League and it represents everyone's ambition in some capacity.
00:24:36
Speaker
It's so true, yeah. I do think that if I had focused on four of the other players on the team, it would be just as compelling a story. It would be a very different story. But it is true. Everybody in the G League has this kind of very unique background. And obviously, they all share that same goal of getting to the NBA. Yeah, that's really what made it difficult. I mean, a lot of people say, too,
00:25:05
Speaker
you know, what I've had the same book if I followed another team or, you know, it seems like you got really lucky with the four that you had and how different and kind of compelling their stories were. And I do think that's true in a way, but I also think that if I was with another team and focused on four different players, there would be something incredible about their stories and something just as compelling in that narrative.
00:25:34
Speaker
I think the guys I covered were great and I'm happy that I chose to focus on those four and pick that team, but any kind of G-League story, any G-League team, I think is worthy of having that story or that platform to tell their stories. One of the central tensions of the book and certainly just of minor leagues in general is that
00:26:00
Speaker
No one really wants to be there and that's and that is such a hard as an athlete or a coach I mean you try to do some Jedi mind tricks on yourself be like, you know be you know We're here now be grateful for being here. But like everyone wants to be somewhere else I think you know and elsewhere and I love that central tension of like of the minor league sport ethic It is like it's
00:26:26
Speaker
The thing they say about the G League is it's the people, the place that nobody wants to be because nobody's ambition is, you know, to get to the G League. No one's like content to be there. They all have goals of going somewhere else. I think what was kind of stood out to me about that is you would think that that, you know, that mentality or that overarching theme of the league would breed a lot of like
00:26:51
Speaker
competition, a lot of tension. I kind of think of it as like a cutthroat environment because everybody has the same goal, everybody wants out, and they're all competing with each other to get out. But there was a weird almost like camaraderie in just sharing that same goal. When everybody wants to get to the same place, you kind of root for each other to get there, even though it means that if one guy gets there, that means that you didn't.
00:27:21
Speaker
And that's a spot that you could add. So, you know, it kind of makes sense when you step back and consider it like that. But I definitely expected when I got there that there would be a lot of tension that I would see a lot of kind of sparks flying in the locker room. And, you know, a lot of guys within the team really kind of.
00:27:38
Speaker
bumping heads because they're they have that same goal. It's the place nobody wants to be. Instead, I saw kind of the opposite, like really a unified group. And, you know, you'll see when guys get called up, like all these G League players on Instagram or Twitter, they share it, they congratulate them and
00:27:59
Speaker
Of course, they trade places in a second, but there is kind of that like, you know, if you make it, we all make it feeling because everybody's kind of in it together.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah, there's a moment in the book, too, where I think someone was talking about Cheatham, and it might have been a former teammate or something, and he just said, everybody's path is different. I'll know he'll find his way back. And that ethos is really important to embrace that, because even as writers and journalists, we're always kind of looking
Supporting Others' Success
00:28:35
Speaker
a little bit over our shoulder and wondering what opportunities other people are getting that we feel like maybe we deserve. And certainly the players in the league might be doing the same exact thing. So in what ways did you see players embrace maybe their own paths? And you can even extrapolate that to your own work and having to embrace your own path as a writer. Yeah, it's a great question. I feel like what I took away from
00:29:01
Speaker
kind of their approach to it in the G-League. And I think it applies to my approach and, you know, to kind of anybody in their own world. You know, one that if you spend time focusing on somebody else's path or somebody else's
00:29:17
Speaker
you know, triumphs or opportunities, one that distracts you from your own. So if you're looking over your shoulder or, you know, so upset about somebody else getting an opportunity or landing a story that you wanted to land or
00:29:34
Speaker
writing a book that you were planning to write or something like that. Well, then that's just, you know, at that point it's just a distraction. So that's one. And then I think too, just the idea of like celebrating other people's successes. You know, I think that you're just a lot happier when you do that. And, uh, it does, you know, I think that stuff can come around. Like, you know, if you're, if you're celebrating others and rooting for others to make it and in an environment as cutthroat as the G league or.
00:30:03
Speaker
in writing is another cutthroat in its own way. There's a lot more joy in that. It can be easy to look at somebody else and measure your success based on somebody else or to compete against them quietly in your own way or be mad when they have success. But it's a lot better when you look at them as
00:30:28
Speaker
people going through the ground with you and just trying to make it or succeed in their own way and rooting for them to have the success that you also want for yourself.
00:30:38
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Similarly, be it in print or anything, there are only those finite spots in a book, in a magazine. Some are going to go to staffers and regulars. And then there might be just one feature that might be able to get to a freelancer. And is it going to go to a new freelancer or someone they've worked with in the past? And it's just the competition for all that, such a tiny amount of real estate.
00:31:07
Speaker
It can be brutal and sometimes it's really hard not to let your resentments shine through. It's sometimes hard to celebrate people's successes and that, but you've got to think that if you do celebrate those wins for other people and see it as a
00:31:26
Speaker
They, in essence, are opening doors, too, by publishing the work that they're publishing. It's like, okay, this is opportunity for me eventually. It might not be my time at the moment, but seeing so-and-so land here, it's like, okay, that's opportunity. The tide is rising. Right. And I definitely feel like that camaraderie, I'm sure you feel it as well. Like I said, I'm a huge listener of your pod.
00:31:54
Speaker
Just with other writers in general, one, to go through the grind and two, it's hard for other people to relate to that grind and that stress, that struggle. Understanding that when somebody else gets that opportunity or finds or gets that story or
00:32:17
Speaker
finds an outlet that'll accept whatever it is and fills that spot. Having an appreciation for, well, respect because that's a grind. I know how difficult that is and I know that probably your friends who are writers probably don't understand all that it took to just get that spot.
00:32:37
Speaker
You know, I definitely increasingly have felt it, uh, especially with the book coming out and all the support I've gotten from other writers. Um, just that kinship with, with other writers, because I think it's hard for other people to understand what the world as an author or writer just in this world kind of looks like. So I definitely feel that camaraderie.
00:32:59
Speaker
Exactly. I think that's a really important point to underscore this idea of community and lifting other people up. I didn't know that you had a book coming out until Mirren, who's been on the show, emailed me and was just like, Alex has got this great new book coming out. You had reached out beforehand and I just hadn't opened it yet. It was just kind of in my pile of pitches. But then when Mirren, she reaches out and she's
00:33:26
Speaker
She's a node on in the network and that just that helped be like, okay, let me let me zip to this Zip to this pitch and let's try to get Alex on quicker than normal and it's and it's just you know that's just part of the the community nature of this and You know network sounds a little too businessy, but it is part of the whole you know building a network is important I like kind of like community better and I think that's just
00:33:52
Speaker
It's a more sort of a nourishing term versus networking, but it does take a community to make a career. Totally. Yeah, and like I have to shout out Mirin. I mean, we've kind of known of each other and she had written for SLAM before and I've reached out to her just about her stories and her books and stuff like that. She's just like, I've always looked up to her writing and I think she's just one of the best and she's been so supportive.
00:34:18
Speaker
helping me, like I said, grow that community and meet more people and, you know, get into some doors. So huge shout out to her. But yeah, it is crazy how that community just grows and, you know, people want to let you in and want to support you. And, you know, she's the one that stands out, but it's been
00:34:40
Speaker
there's been so many writers, you know, even people like I reached out to Jeff Parleman to do a blurb and he's like, to me, you know, the guy I love his books, love his writing, his career is like exactly what I would want to do. And reached out to him cold, just was like, I wrote this book, and I'd be honored if you would do a blurb for it. And the fact that he even responded to me was like, Oh, my God, this is the coolest thing ever. And then the fact that he wrote such a nice blurb for the book,
00:35:10
Speaker
It was incredible. So, you know, I think that that also kind of feeds, you know, now if a young writer were to reach out to me or, you know, I'd be happy to help and kind of welcome them into this community because that's kind of the, you know, that's what I've known and what people have done for me.
00:35:30
Speaker
Yeah, there's a moment in the book also where Coach Pannon, he says, being a G-League head coach is a phenomenal way to break in, but there's no guarantee. There is no pathway. And if you're a G-League head coach and you don't have a lot of relationships at the NBA level, because my career has been different and unique, it's like, what are you being evaluated on and how do you break in?
00:35:50
Speaker
And it's just kind of like exactly what we're talking about. Like even with the G league coaches, it's like, or even the players, it's about, you know, relationships in a network. And if you can get FaceTime or if you can just be familiar with someone, that might be the tiebreaker between a yes and a no, or a call up or staying where you are. For sure. Yeah, that's a great, like I never really thought about that too deep, but yeah, that, that definitely carries over into the writing world. And
00:36:19
Speaker
I feel like too, like there isn't, and I'm curious if you feel the same, like there isn't really a, you know, a formula. Certainly there are certain things that, you know, work better than others in terms of if you're pitching a story on LeBron James, that probably has a better chance of sticking than a guy, you know, some guy in the G League. But I do feel like, you know, I've pitched so many stories. I've, this was my first book, but I've,
00:36:45
Speaker
written and attempted to write other books before. And, you know, I kind of feel like, not that it's random, but there is no formula. And you kind of just have to keep grinding and kind of believing that, like, Pannon does, that your break will come. That if you do the right things, if you work hard, if you treat others well and cheer for others to make it, that eventually, you know, your opportunity or your break will arrive. So,
00:37:15
Speaker
I never thought about that and how that relates to the writing world, but now that you said that, definitely. I think that that for sure applies. I got to say with what you said earlier that you were allowed into the film sessions and everything and talk about, for someone who's a fan of basketball and loved basketball growing up and still loves it, how did being able to
00:37:40
Speaker
It's like reading as a writer. You know, you're a writer now. Now reading is different for you. And now being a basketball fan, then watching a film session and watching professionals break down, how did that fundamentally change your relationship to basketball, being able to be in those sessions? Yeah, I would say I thought I knew basketball until they let me in. It is wild. I mean, I think
00:38:06
Speaker
Again, having played and been a fan my whole life, I feel like I have a really good understanding for the game and, you know, a lot of kind of the stuff that certainly my friends who are, you know, fans, but not as into it and not writing about it have. And then you're standing in the locker room and they're breaking down film and it's like a different language. I mean, truly it's, it's eyeopening to see the attention to detail, how much goes into it, how
00:38:36
Speaker
difficult it is to kind of process everything and to get everything correct. I would say that it changed my perception in that I can now spot things that I couldn't spot before, but I think more so it changed my appreciation for just everything that players have to do on the court and how much they're
00:38:59
Speaker
being judged on because, you know, they, they find stuff on film. It's a tiny little detail that I'm sure in every single basketball game I ever played, I never even thought about once.
00:39:11
Speaker
Uh, and these guys are constantly being judged on all of those little things. So, uh, it certainly, you know, leaves you with more respect for, uh, just how difficult it is to be a professional basketball player and, uh, how much goes into it that fans, even writers and reporters who cover the game have little kind of grasp on. So, uh, that was the biggest change, I think.
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah, and I believe it was Joe Young that he had been in the NBA for a bit and had developed, unfairly or not, a reputation that stuck to him for years and he had a hard time. His goal is to get back, but he had to rewrite his narrative, so to speak, and that can be
00:39:55
Speaker
Very hard to do. So in what sense did you get a sense of the challenge it is to to rewrite someone's narrative so they might take another chance on you, given a past reputation? Yeah, I think that that was certainly one of the biggest takeaways. It's hard once just get into the NBA, but when you've been there, you've made mistakes, you've now have this reputation and you kind of carry this label.
00:40:25
Speaker
It's twice as hard to get back in, um, and kind of rewrite that narrative because, you know, there's so many guys competing for those spots. And especially when you're a fringe player, you know, G league player and overseas player who was very close to making it, you know, since there's such a little kind of difference between those guys and obviously they have unique games, but in terms of their talent and their fit, you know, there are multiple guys who can fill the same spot. The way that NBA teams look at it is basically.
00:40:53
Speaker
Why take the guy who's made any mistakes? You know, we can find somebody who is close to Joe's talent level, you know, what he brings to the game. And he doesn't have this, you know, negative reputation attached to his name. Now, I think that the kind of the difficulty there and what's kind of sad to see up close is that, you know, having been around Joe and obviously I wasn't with him before,
00:41:23
Speaker
that that was not the person that I saw at all um and that the coaches saw it all either and you know he was a changed person he had gone overseas and played three years in China and his perspective as he got older you know he just maturity he became a different person which I think everybody uh in their early 20s is could stand to mature a little bit you know to learn some lessons so he comes back and
00:41:49
Speaker
you know, he's really trying to make it back in and has completely transformed as both a person and a player. But it's just too late. And, you know, without spoiling too much, like, I just think
00:42:05
Speaker
especially in the NBA, you know, where there's 500 positions. It's like one of the more exclusive jobs you can possibly hope to obtain. You know, they just look at it as like, why take any chance? We know this guy from X amount of years ago, and that's enough to kind of cross him off the list and just move on to another guy. So it's tough. It's really hard to rewrite that narrative once it's already been formed.
00:42:33
Speaker
Yeah, you write a couple times about the, you know, there's an NBA player and a player in the NBA and one of those passages, you know, you write the distinction between an NBA player and a player in the NBA exists for a reason. Only around 500 spots are available in the NBA each year and more than 500 players are capable of filling those spots. And such a small number of those spots, just 11 in the 21, 22 season go to players under six feet tall. And it's just like,
00:43:03
Speaker
when the talent pool is so deep and there's someone who's under six feet and there's a guy five inches taller who's got the same skill set. Scouts are gonna be like, can't go wrong with going bigger. You just can't. Right, right. That's the thing, that passage was about Jared Harper. I knew of Jared Harper and he had led Auburn to the Final Four and I was familiar with his name but certainly did not know how talented he was until I went
00:43:32
Speaker
you know, down to Birmingham and was with the team. There's no question, everybody who's been around this guy, the coaches, myself, having watched him and all that he did in the G-League, there's no question that he's an NBA caliber player. I mean, just his talent, in the few times he's gotten opportunities in the NBA, he's played well. And so that's really the, like,
00:43:53
Speaker
the hardest thing to kind of process for guys like Jared or players on the fringe who are of that level, they're capable of playing in the NBA. They're constantly hearing that they're NBA players, but yet they can't get into the NBA and it's kind of impossible for them to break in. So that's why there's that distinction. There's an NBA player and there's a player in the NBA because there's a lot more NBA players than there are players in the NBA. So his story really drove that home.
00:44:23
Speaker
Over the course of your just being so close to the squadron and just being up close to that caliber of player, did you have a greater appreciation for even the most fringe player in the NBA when you were so up close to just how good these guys are in the minors? A hundred percent. A lot of times my friends will say, you know, because I play in high school and I'll play pickup with them or whatever.
00:44:51
Speaker
Did you ever get out there with them? You were there every day. Did you ever go shoot? I'm like, you really don't get it, do you? I would get killed. I mean, of course, for the talent level, I think the deeper appreciation is for just the role players in that all that they do, all that they're sacrificing, I'll say, to get to where they're at. Because one of the biggest things in the G League is you have all these guys who have been stars their entire lives.
00:45:21
Speaker
best player in high school you know a lot of times they were averaging 30 plus points and they have this history of just being the star and all of a sudden they're in the G League and they're being told like hey if you want to get to the NBA just so you know you're never going to be a star like it's over.
00:45:37
Speaker
You better get rid of your ego and buy into being the guy who stands in the corner and just shoots threes when the ball comes to him or the guy who picks up 94 feet and plays really hard defense or even the guy who's just on the bench celebrating and rooting for his teammates. It is a joy to be around in the locker room. That could be your way to get a million dollar contract. It's just be a good guy and be somebody that everybody wants to be around.
00:46:06
Speaker
You know, I think that there's a tendency for fans to watch some of those role players and be like, what is this guy doing? What's his value? How is he in the NBA? Uh, now I'm able to look at them and say he's doing X, Y, and Z. And, you know, he could be doing all these other things, but he's willing to sacrifice, uh, to get to the NBA and to get those massive contracts and, you know, support his family and kind of earn a living. Like that's what he's doing to.
00:46:35
Speaker
to kind of stick and to realize his dream. So it is a totally different perspective once you're around it. I know. Like, can you imagine just say, I don't know, like, you know, we're just in the station we are as writers and like someone, you know, Dave Remnick of The New Yorker just comes up, you're like, you know, you're never going to be a New Yorker writer, but do you want to be a researcher for David Grant?
00:46:58
Speaker
or something like, ugh. Well, I guess in a way it's making it to the show, but it's also, I wonder, that hits home for us to think of it like that, and I wonder how hard it must be for these players, like you were saying a moment ago, you were a star in high school, probably a star in college, and then suddenly you're told, you gotta check that ego now, because you're not gonna be LeBron, you're gonna be,
00:47:25
Speaker
you know, the guy who maybe plays five minutes, but those five minutes you better make count. Or you just, you're maybe the star player just really likes you. You know, you really, you're his pipe guy and that, you know, that works. I don't know. It's so easy, I think, to look at that and be like, well, it's easy. Like you can, you know, you can get paid millions to do less, essentially. You know, you're not shouldering as big a load. Like you're being asked to do
00:47:54
Speaker
you know, it's less of a burden on your shoulders. Why can't you just stand there? Why can't you just, you know, just crash the boards or pick up 94 feet and play hard defense? And I think that it's easy to say that when you haven't been that guy. And it's so hard to just to wrap your head around, you know, taking a step back and
00:48:17
Speaker
Especially when, you know, it's that kind of confidence that in sometimes irrational confidence that's gotten you that far, like the fact that you're in the G league and you're on the doorstep of the NBA is because you've always been, I'm the best player on the floor. Like nobody can guard me. Nobody can do what I can do. And all of a sudden you get to the G league and it's like, you won't be the best player on the floor. I promise you. And you got to change your mindset completely. So.
00:48:43
Speaker
That's a good example of the writing because it's hard to kind of figure out how to compare it. But yeah, it'd be like, you know, writing all these books and then being told that, you know, writing all these bestsellers and being told that your next book for sure, you know, if you're going to keep writing books, it's not going to be
00:49:03
Speaker
you're gonna go way down the totem pole and it's not gonna be the same reception. Would you keep doing it? That's kinda the comparison.
00:49:14
Speaker
Yeah, this is kind of a weird, perhaps even abstract question. But what do you suppose that the G League, as a community, as a pool of talent, as a pool of ambition, what do you think it says, maybe even, this is kind of a lofty, maybe even a stupid question, but what do you think it says about America?
00:49:42
Speaker
man.
00:49:47
Speaker
about america uh... i guess maybe maybe more specifically maybe more like just the american uh... the it just let the american dream you know that there's a better shirt as uh... as abstract in you know i am non-existent as that is but i think that actually is a great question because uh... you know one of the like central themes of the book is this tension between if you're a fringe guy you can
00:50:15
Speaker
make really, really good money playing overseas. The four guys that I follow, they can definitely make six figures playing in leagues in Europe, in Asia. Joe Young, he was making over, I think he was making 3 million in China before he accepted less than 40,000 in the G-League. As it pertains to basketball, that dream, the dream is the NBA. That dream is so intoxicating for players and
00:50:46
Speaker
You know, really the only dream that they're willing to make those sacrifices in the pursuit of it. I mean, it kind of seems like a no brainer, like, you know, here, here are your two options you can.
00:50:59
Speaker
Go into the G League, make less than 40,000, fly commercial, stay in not the nicest hotels. You're living in not the biggest city and traveling to places that you don't necessarily want to travel to. Or you can go to Italy and play for 500k.
00:51:20
Speaker
it's beautiful and you're living in this incredible city and playing amazing competition. And by the way, like you could probably be a star there as opposed to what we were just talking about with the G League.
Ambition in Basketball
00:51:33
Speaker
And so many of these guys choose the G League and it seems unfathomable. But I think that what it says about that dream is that, you know, everybody, one, everybody shares it. It's that one,
00:51:47
Speaker
in basketball American dream, that one American dream. And it's that powerful and that gripping that they're willing to basically say, I'd rather pursue this, you know, this American dream than have this incredible life overseas and get to experience all these other cultures. And, you know, I'd rather never basically say woulda, coulda, shoulda, and I'd rather stick it out and see if I can get there than
00:52:17
Speaker
than have this kind of incredible experience in these countries overseas. So it says a lot about just how powerful it is when those dreams are kind of baked in since childhood. It's the only thing you've ever wanted and known.
00:52:34
Speaker
And speaking of ambition, just for you as a magazine writer and an author of your first book here too, what's your relationship to ambition and where do you see yourself hopefully taking, to use the LeBron term, taking your talents and so forth? Matt, I've always loved writing and my dream was to write a book.
00:52:58
Speaker
am lucky that I have gotten this far and now I think like for me it's just can I keep it rolling and kind of carve out a career as an author. You know I still want to do obviously a bunch of freelance writing and I'll always be writing for whoever will let me write for them as we talked about but definitely my biggest dream is to
00:53:23
Speaker
you know, have a career like Jeff Parleman's where I've gotten to kind of pursue all these stories that I love and, you know, make a living writing books and telling stories because that's I feel like that's always been my calling and going through this process as it's kind of agonizing as it can be at times to write a book. And I know you're, you know, coming up to your deadline to and I know that that can how stressful that can be. But at the end of the day, I just love it. And
00:53:52
Speaker
you know, getting to do it this one time only kind of made me more ambitious and want to do it even more. So hopefully off of this book, I can get book number two and then it's book number three and kind of keep it rolling. But that would be the major goal.
00:54:10
Speaker
Yeah, and given that it's a calling for you and I think it has to be on some level to endure the rejection in the lonely days and not getting any kind of feedback or positive feedback sometimes where it's so fleeting and far between that it's just like you have to love the work, love the grind. So in the face of all those just indomitable rejections and negative things bludgeoning you all the time,
00:54:38
Speaker
You know, how have you kind of stayed the course and kept your vision alive? Man, it's tough. I won't lie. I mean, like I said, I've had other book opportunities and I want to say opportunities, ideas and things I've pitched and really pursue that never made it. I really relate to just kind of how lonely that the experience of writing a book can be because, you know, going to Birmingham,
00:55:05
Speaker
My friends and family are in New York. I, again, just trying to not become too close with the team as I was writing the book. I really didn't hang out with the guys outside of all of the team stuff and didn't know a single person in Birmingham. So I spent kind of seven months completely alone just working on the book. And that was...
00:55:25
Speaker
That makes you think about how bad you really want this, just how lowly that can be. You know, for me, I think it's just kind of zooming out and remembering sort of the bigger picture here. I mean, the fact that I was able to have that experience, that they let me follow a team and I get to write about basketball and be around basketball every day.
00:55:48
Speaker
you know, tell these stories that I've read all my life. And now I get to actually be the writer who's sharing them with others. When you keep that perspective, you realize like, all right, like all this stuff that you go through now, all those kinds of obstacles, all those lonely nights or rejections, you know, it's worth it. Like you have kind of the coolest job in the world. You're so lucky to have this. So.
00:56:13
Speaker
I think it's just keeping that perspective. Like I really do feel like I can't believe that this is like a job that I can do. And I feel very lucky that I've gotten the opportunity to do it and all the opportunities I've had. And I know there'll be more rejections and stuff like that down the road. So understanding that this is a luxury to be able to do this. And I'm very lucky.
00:56:39
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, Alex, as I bring these conversations down for a landing, I'm sure you know that. I like to ask the guests for a recommendation of some kind or just anything that excites you that you want to share with the listeners. So I'd extend that to you. Obviously, like I said, I listen to all the episodes. I was really trying to think of a good one.
00:56:58
Speaker
I came up with a book, so I really didn't do a great job, but I would just recommend I did a book event with Ross Bankston, who also was kind of a
00:57:13
Speaker
inspiration to me because he was came before me at SLAM and he wrote a fantastic book about it's the history of basketball told through 15 sneakers he's like a sneaker guy awesome book a really great guy too and yeah I just wanted to to use this platform to hype that up because uh
00:57:35
Speaker
Yeah, he's one, just been a great friend and kind of mentored of me and just following his career. And then two, I love the book. So, uh, Russ Bexton history of basketball and 15 sneakers, I guess is, is the big recommendation I came up with.
00:57:51
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, Alex, awesome. This is so great to have this conversation. I really love the book. And it was so alive and vibrant because the reporting was in real time, really. And that was, I think, part of the allure and why it was so charged and just alive. And so just an awesome book, awesome job. And yeah, I can't wait till we can have another one of these conversations down the road when more of your work comes out.
00:58:16
Speaker
For sure, man. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you saying that. And like I said, I'm a huge fan of the pod. So this is awesome for me. So thank you for having me.
00:58:27
Speaker
Sweet, thanks to Alex, and thank you kind CNF and listener. If you don't already subscribe to the show, do it. It's free, doesn't hurt you. Makes me feel good. Oh yeah, so anyway, parting shot time. And yeah, so yeah, I cut 50,000 words from the prefontaine book.
00:58:51
Speaker
title of which, for some of you who don't know, so far is titled The Gift, Steve Prefontaine, and the Dawn of the Modern Athlete. Some very hard things to see go. I added in my prologue finally, which I'm still tweaking just a little bit. It's almost done.
00:59:09
Speaker
modeling it beat for beat after the American Prometheus prologue which takes place at Oppenheimer's funeral and I was like I got a funeral so I started at a funeral so you already know something right off the bat if you already didn't
00:59:25
Speaker
It's the only thing I actually – the only writing I actually shared with my partner, wife, whatever, this prologue, and she actually had nice things to say about it, which says something. I'm more or less against sharing drafts with spouses. It's unfair to them. I'll talk about that another day. I think that's a riff worth riffing.
00:59:48
Speaker
I want to talk about how you don't know where to begin until you've reached the end. Now that's a trippy phrase to toss around in your brain. I'm mainly talking about the prologue. Those first thousand or so words should be the last thousand you write.
01:00:08
Speaker
Now, this isn't any tremendous insight. I'm sure the more seasoned authors out there might be listening this far and be like, well, no shit, asshole. Well, in essence, the prologue is essentially your subtitle in an essay form.
The Role of a Prologue
01:00:23
Speaker
And if it's done correctly, it teases what's coming, of course. It's illustrative of the greater themes and tone of the book.
01:00:31
Speaker
and it orients a set of GPS coordinates for the reader whereby everything that follows passes through this filter so that it rhymes with the prologue. Maybe without the prologue's gentle nudge to cue the reader on some of the book's more important themes, it might not seem as overt what those themes are.
01:00:58
Speaker
And my hope is, you know, whatever, you know, themes that are apparent through the thing or just are felt and seep into the bloodstream through osmosis. Not because I hit you over the head with it, you know. And these themes don't emerge or crystallize until you've kind of reached the end of your drafting process. You know, I've now read this book four full times through this big old fat motherfucker.
01:01:26
Speaker
from 55, 55, 555 pages down to about 415, 410. I can no longer tell if it's boring or if I'm just merely bored with it. Yeah, my big book editor will get this on Monday. He runs the Boston Marathon every year, so I'm gonna time the delivery of this manuscript so when he's running up Heartbreak Hill,
01:01:51
Speaker
That'll be good. He probably won't want to work with me anymore after this book. Did I talk to everyone I had to? No. Did I comb through every newspaper archive? No. Did I make every call? Sadly, no. Making phone calls is very difficult for me. Talking to people is very difficult for me.
01:02:15
Speaker
Sometimes you wouldn't know it by the way I interact with people, but it's very hard for me. It's just it just is Cold calling fills me with such paralyzing anxiety and dread that I sometimes will literally lay on the floor and stare at the ceiling before making a phone call I need to make or I'll go into the kitchen and just mainline chucky peanut butter or like draw stupid cartoons and
01:02:41
Speaker
I've learned how my bad habits are. I've learned, let's say, what many of my bad habits are, and I've learned how to make them better if I'm granted another book of the scope.
01:02:58
Speaker
Throughout the whole process of this book, it's been a real struggle on point of view and how I as the author get to put my scale, put my thumb on the scale of this history. I still feel like I missed the mark. My instincts have been askew, have been called into question the entire process from the book proposal right through the drafting.
01:03:22
Speaker
You know, nothing is, oh man, I'm even bored with myself. It's not even, you know, it's not gonna be set in stone come April 15th. There's probably still six to eight weeks of wiggle room and hopefully it's somewhat seamless. Hopefully it's...
01:03:42
Speaker
I mean, there might be pain involved, but hopefully it's not the kind of pain where it's like, oh my God. I hope at the end, everyone involved feels good and not be like, well, we had to put something out because a contract said it was going to happen. Here you go, everyone. Have fun with it. If I have downtime, I'm gonna get started on some heavy research, heavy.
01:04:09
Speaker
research for another sports biography and lean into the uncertainty of that. And maybe next week I'll elaborate on what exactly I mean by that and how not leaning into the uncertainty of this prefontaine book probably cost me six months of time. That'll be a fun one. Stay wild, see you in efforts. And remember, if you can't do interview, see ya.
01:04:53
Speaker
you