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Another Vamp Bites the Dust (part 1) - Ep 17
258 Plays9 months ago
In their latest quest, Tilly and Ash have to deal with quite a delicate situation, as construction of the latest housing project by Helsing Homes uncovers the burials of possible vampire hunters, including bags of vampire teeth… Luckily, they can enlist the help of special guest Jessica van Dam - an ex-osteoarchaeologist who researched teeth in particular. Together, they discuss the difference between forensic anthropology and osteoarchaeology, the development of folklores of vampirism, and why women always seem to be so maligned…
Links
- Jessica’s Website
- Jessica’s LinkedIn
- Article on "The Real Vampires of Europe"
- Article on the New England Vampire Panic
Contact
- Email: andmytrowel@gmail.com
- Instagram: @and.my.trowel
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode, go to: https://www.archpodnet.com/trowel/17
ArchPodNet
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Transcript
Introduction and Theme Overview
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You have my sword. And you have my boat. And my trowel. Hello, you're listening to episode 17 of And My Trowel, where we look at the fantastic side of archaeology and the archaeological side of fantasy. My name's Tilly. And I'm Ash. And today, we're delving into the creatures of the night, those that feast on the blood of the living. Oh my god, vampires.
00:00:30
Speaker
Yes, Ash vampires. How hell yes.
Vampires in Archaeology: Challenges and Findings
00:00:35
Speaker
So yes, we're looking at the bloodsuckers of legends, immortal beings who stalk the knights in search of prey, because, well, so Ash, we've been given a bit of a problem to fix. One of the latest excavations by Hellsing Homes has hit a bit of a snag. And of course, as you're aware, Ash, they're one of the biggest sustainable housing companies this side of the fictional world. They provide homes for most of the mythical creatures on this land.
00:00:59
Speaker
It's a bit of a reparative measure since the Hellsings often hunted their ancestors during the Dark Ages. Less said about that the better. But now, Hellsings recent development to house the rapidly growing werewolf population since the big bite of 2019 has hit a massive snag because they found burials.
00:01:18
Speaker
Oh no, that's... I mean, that's not really a problem. I mean, we can get a team together, you know. Unfortunately, that's not all. They found human burials with vampire teeth buried with them.
00:01:34
Speaker
Oh, okay. No, no, hang on. Are we talking about dentures, grave goods here? What are we talking? Grave goods, indeed. So there was a bag placed behind the head during the burial and they're in a number of different burials, by the way. So along with swords, silver bullets, and also a few organic finds that have a remarkable appearance of stakes. Ah, so we're talking hunter burials. Maybe even Van Helsing associated burials.
00:02:03
Speaker
Okay, well that's a bit of a sticky situation, but can I ask, how do we know their vampire teeth? They've been identified by the living vampire who happens to be missing their fangs.
00:02:17
Speaker
Ah, this is a pickle. Exactly. But luckily, I happen to have a specialist on call right now.
Expert Interview: Jessica Van Dom on Teeth and Archaeology
00:02:24
Speaker
Ash, I'd like you to meet Jessica Van Dom, who just so happens to be a forensic anthropologist and osteoarchaeologist, and she knows quite a bit about teeth. Welcome, Jess. Hi. Oh my God. Hi. Lovely to meet you. Thanks so much for joining us. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Jess.
00:02:42
Speaker
Well, first, thanks for having me. Well, and I must say, I said teeth. Is that your specialist? It was. I've gathered a few degrees over the years. So at the moment, I'm actually an art conservator.
00:02:59
Speaker
also useful. We'll keep that in mind. But my archaeology degree, the research focused on aging or estimating age at death in archaeological contexts using peace. Very cool. Very handy. So you're a forensic anthropologist and an osteoarchaeologist. How did that come about? How did you get into that?
00:03:23
Speaker
Well, forensic anthropology, I don't know if you remember the show Bones? That was on, yeah, pretty good. That came out right before I was supposed to go to uni. And I was like, oh, that's a job. I should get that job. So I'll go study that. Imagine if you'd be watching a different show, like, your life would have been so different. Yeah, like cash converters are like,
00:03:51
Speaker
Ghost Adventures. Well, what's funny is that around the same time I was watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which seems less marketable somehow. Well, it's useful today. I mean, it would be hard to get work, I think, but you never know. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's a sort of underpaid profession, vampire hunting. Dangerous. Very dangerous. We'll have to ask the hellsings.
00:04:22
Speaker
paid under the table. But okay. And then I'm not sure if this is a question that we'll be dealing with later on. But in terms of forensic anthropology and osteoarcheology, is there a difference? Sort of yes and sort of no. So forensic anthropology really focuses on more recent deaths that could be related to a criminal case. So like the word forensics,
00:04:47
Speaker
means that it's somehow related to law in some way or other. And so if there's a suspicious death in the woods, like a skeleton is found in the woods and they're like, oh, this could be 200 years old or it could be a hundred or it could be five or a month that can all sort of fall under the forensics category. And then osteoarchaeology is like more distinctly old.
00:05:12
Speaker
burials or archaeologically found human remains. Right. Okay, that makes sense. And so you're not in the kind of field at the moment, but is there anything that you're working on right now
Historical Practices: Mummies and Paint Pigment
00:05:28
Speaker
that's related or has been related, or in your art conservatoire?
00:05:34
Speaker
So two summers ago, I worked on a ancient Egyptian mummy for a small university in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania. You know, there are mummies all over the States and they are in the strangest places. Honestly, this one they kept in a library. Oh yeah. From like the, I think they got it in like the 1880s.
00:06:00
Speaker
And so there was a lot of like stories about like student pranks and like bringing it into dorms. And so what was very interesting specifically is that this this mummy is so heavy, there is no way they carried it into anybody's dorm room. Maybe the skull because it was unwrapped, like just the head was unwrapped, but the rest wasn't. So that was fun to both work on it in a art conservation context, but also in a osteological context because her skull was visible.
00:06:30
Speaker
That's so interesting. That's mad. And there was anything like, I just like, I can't picture it. I mean, another Victorians obviously took a lot of stuff and they used to eat mummies. Did you know that? I found that out recently. It was a delicacy. I mean, you know, they've all done a little wrapped ancient carcass. I mean, we're definitely different people.
00:07:01
Speaker
Or turn it into paint pigment, you know? Yeah. Mummy Brown. Mummy Brown, yeah. Mummy Brown. No, it's actually called that. I know, but it just sounds so horrible.
00:07:12
Speaker
There was a painter that exclusively used Mummy Brown and he did, I don't know if it is, but I saw it online and he didn't know what it was. And then he found out and he cried. He kept crying and tried to destroy all of his work because it was human remains. He was really upset about it. I feel better for him now. I was thinking, oh my gosh, what a horrible person using crushed up mummies for that painting. And then, okay, I didn't realise.
00:07:37
Speaker
He had no clue and it was of the time like he was Victorian. I just can't remember his name now. I'll try and find it. We'll randomly slip it in somewhere in the rest of the episode. There you go. There's your teaser everyone listening in. Listen in to the rest of this episode to
Forensic Anthropology: Skeletal Trauma and Paleopathology
00:07:50
Speaker
hear which painter uses mummy brown.
00:07:55
Speaker
And so obviously you have moved on to something different now, you've gone in a slightly different direction. But if we go back to forensic anthropology, osteoarchaeology, teeth, what sort of did you find enjoyable about that topic? You did it for so long, you did a couple of degrees, as you said, in that topic. So what was for you the most exciting thing about that topic?
00:08:14
Speaker
What I found really interesting is that you can figure out when a skeleton was damaged. So like skeletal trauma is different depending on if you're alive or if you're dead or if you're very, very dead. So in our archaeological context, that's interesting because you could say, oh, is this a trowel that broke this rib or was this rib already broken? You know, like those kind of timeline context clues can be visible.
00:08:48
Speaker
teeth in all honesty, but someone's got to hit the teeth. I just like your definition of very, very dead. It's like, you know, that that skit of if you go out or if you're going out, out. Or you're very pregnant. There are different stages of dead. Did you not know this? I mean, that's what we're going to find out today.
00:09:20
Speaker
So if that's the most interesting bit, what's the most frustrating that you've had in your specialism frustrating thing? I think one thing, well, one, it's, it's a very repetitive field, especially osteoarchaeology, because if you're excavating it like an entire cemetery, and you have say 100 skeletons, you're running a lot of the same tests. So you're taking the same measurements, and you're, you know, looking at different
00:09:46
Speaker
like data points. And so you're just collecting data about these skeletons. And so the skeletal trauma and the paleopathology, so like any sort of illness that could affect bones is not necessarily studied immediately. And so it's like, it's just a lot of data collection, which I find rather boring.
00:10:08
Speaker
I like the more like, Oh, look at this oddity. And what can I find out about this oddity? But the other problem is that going back to paleopathology is that a lot of illnesses can present similarly. So like, you know, like if you have lesions on the ribs, so like there's some sort of like
00:10:29
Speaker
weirdly molded bone on the inside of the ribs that could be a sign of like tuberculosis if they had it long enough, but it could also be a sign of some sort of cancer. It could be a sign of some other respiratory disease. It could be, I don't know, assist. It could be, there's so many things that these things can be.
Fantasy Literature and Cultural Myths Discussion
00:10:49
Speaker
say, oh, they likely had these things, or they may have had this problem, or they could have died from this, but there's no real certainty. And so that's a little frustrating.
00:10:59
Speaker
I feel like that's the main thing with archaeology in general. Everything you say is like, but this is just purely based on my own interpretation of this particular sign. It's certainly ritualistic. I'm going to make a little audio going ritual with like echoing and Rachel can just add it in whenever we say ritual.
00:11:26
Speaker
It makes me think of the klaxon on QI. Oh my gosh, you should definitely do that. Fantastic, brilliant. So since we're in a fantasy world and a fantasy context, the next question we have here is do you actually enjoy reading fantasy? I love fantasy.
00:11:58
Speaker
I don't think it would have been on this podcast if that had been a no answer. So what's your favorite fantasy book or even series? Oh, that is a really challenging question. One that I read recently, because you probably have this problem where, you know, you read a ton of books, but some of them don't grab your attention as much. But this one I could not put down. So like read it in one sitting. It was Girl Who Fell Beneath the Sea by Axio.
00:12:17
Speaker
one of my top genres. Oh my goodness, I've been terrible otherwise.
00:12:27
Speaker
So it's a Korean mythology retelling of the sea gods bride. So it's just, it's really well written, lovely, like the, like the images that you conjure up
00:12:42
Speaker
That's sitting on my shelf next to my bed, coming closer and closer to the top of the Tubi red pile. I feel like a certain American I know gave that to me. Weird. Weird coincidence, right? I'm afraid I haven't read it yet, but it is on my pile and I'm working my way through it gradually. That's totally fine. Terry Pratchett's. The Terry Pratchett's have been read, they're fine.
00:13:10
Speaker
Oh, I did finally read the Terry Pratchett. I've also sent ones to Ash. We had sisters. Oh, see, I started with the audio books and I did going postal first. So I know it's out of order.
00:13:32
Speaker
I did that because it's later, you get like a better, I don't know. It's a better overview. This is the problem with those ones. Well, that's like actually Rachel, our lovely editor, who's currently probably listening to this right now going out for God's sake, Matilda, stop talking about her magic. During our meeting the other day, she said, Matilda, I downloaded Color of Magic, which is good. But at the same time, I did tell her, oh, you might be disappointed if you start with that one, because it's not the best.
00:13:59
Speaker
But anyway, sorry, I apologize. I'm really sorry. I genuinely did not mean to you brought it up this time. No, I did. I thought you needed it. Don't worry. There are plenty of vampires. We're gonna get so Oh, but for a vampire series, I highly recommend strange practice by Vivian Shaw. Oh, it's about Greta Van Helsing. And she's a doctor for monsters.
00:14:25
Speaker
I've read that one. It's cute. Yeah. And there's mummies in it and trolls and yeah, very fun. So highly recommend. Okay. That was a good one. I'm going to get it. So Jess, do you think that you will be able to help us with our problem that we're having here? I do hope so.
00:14:47
Speaker
Oh, wait, hang on a sec. Sorry, my books are starting to fly around the room again. Hang on, they must need to tell me something. Let me just quickly talk to them and we will be right back.
00:14:58
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back. Okay, so it turns out the books did actually want to tell us a few things specifically about vampires. They were incredibly informative. But books aside, I want to know first and foremost, Tilly, Jess, what do you guys know about vampires? Well, I know about vampires from what I've read in a series, which I don't know if I've told you guys about this series of books that I've read and how do you... Twilight, I knew it.
00:15:29
Speaker
Twihard, had to be. Had to be, Tilly's favourite book series. Please sparkle, right? Yeah, sparkle. So weirdly enough, there are vampires in this world. But unfortunately, I knew about vampires before from various things in terms of the good old, you know, they drink blood, they've got pointy teeth. And
00:15:51
Speaker
But then, yeah, the problem is now I think I've read the Discworld books so many times that that's kind of been great off my mind now, the physical vampires from there, which they basically play into the stereotype. So they always dress in evening wear and they always have like slicked hair and all this kind of stuff. And the Arthur cape. Yeah, right. Exactly. There's even one of my favorite characters is called Otto Schrieg, who's a vampire and he he's a photographer, but he had so he has like a photographer's vest, but it has tails and a bow tie as well. Like it's
00:16:23
Speaker
So I don't know, like, I feel like, yeah, that's sort of a nighttime, they can't go out in the sun. But that's sort of as much as I know, but I feel like Jess is probably a little more aware vampire, kind of in popular fiction and mythology and things, because she's the one that introduced me to quite a lot of vampire related fiction. I mean, there is a lot and I like what's interesting is that
00:16:47
Speaker
the vampire myth has evolved so drastically. I feel like, especially in recent media, there's different
00:16:56
Speaker
like lore about them, like, you know, in the Buffy universe, there's they like, you know, if you stake them, they turn into dust. And if you and oh, in Discworld, you know, his photographer's flashbulb turns him into dust. And then he has a little while of blood. So that it splashes on it and it blossoms him up again, because otherwise people keep having to find blood everywhere to get him back to life.
00:17:23
Speaker
profession to choose. That's what they keep saying to him. And he's like, but light is my passion.
Vampire Depictions: History and Evolution
00:17:31
Speaker
And then there's like, there's the vampire diaries where they like hire a witch so that they can go out in the sunlight. But then they like
00:17:41
Speaker
they desiccate. Oh. Yeah, they have the ring. It's a good segue because we've talked about like popular fiction, but the kind of traditional definition of a vampire, I'll tell you what it is, right?
00:18:01
Speaker
So a vampire is a mythical creature that survives by feeding on the essence of the living. This is often framed as blood, but it can be more ephemeral, like a life essence or even emotions. So if you've ever seen what we do in the shadows, there's the kind of vampiric kind of guy who's in the office and he's an energy vampire. It's like that.
00:18:22
Speaker
And then in European vocal vampires are undead creatures that often visit loved ones from beyond the grave and cause mischief or death in areas they've inhabited when they were alive. Which I guess makes sense that idea of it being like it's not always blood because if you say like oh they're a bit of a vampire that it's like isn't that a saying like oh they're a bit of a vampire they kind of suck the life out of you like yeah they sort of yeah take during your energy.
00:18:49
Speaker
I think the term energy vampire is still used as like to refer to like really extroverted people who like always claim the spotlight, but you feel exhausted being around them. Yeah, they just like somehow suck your energy. If you're like, how are you so energetic? Completely, you haven't had your coffee in the morning, you're like, please stop singing. I think I live with two little vampires right now.
00:19:15
Speaker
I was going to say children. I think children are a little energy over. Do you still have so much energy?
00:19:21
Speaker
And I think where the kind of blood comes into it is it becomes, especially when Bram Stoker writes Dracula, it becomes an idea of sex. So the fangs and penetration and then blood is all that sort of stuff. But there's actually the notion of vampirism has existed in many forms and for many different cultures, for centuries, even millennia.
00:19:48
Speaker
So there's some cool archaeological and mythological vampire examples you can talk about. So I don't know if you've heard of the Mesopotamian blood-drinking demon, Lamashu. I mean, that sounds, yeah, pretty blood-drinking. Sounds pretty vampiristic to me.
00:20:05
Speaker
It does, doesn't it? So they all kind of interconnect all these kind of mythological features and creatures and things. But so there's Lemashu, she's the daughter of the sky god Anu. There's depictions of pottery, like actual pieces of pottery, of blood-drinking demons that relate to her and her children. So this then interconnects with the kind of Jewish mythological figure of Lilith.
00:20:29
Speaker
who in the early medieval period becomes known as the first wife of Adam, who doesn't want to marry Adam, which is fair. And then decides that she's going to actually become the mother of demons. That sounds like much more fun. Yeah, I mean, either marry boring old Adam and become part of his rib or something and then become the queen of demons. Like, sounds better. I like the power concept there. That just sounds nice.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah, right. I feel like in Greek mythology there was something vampiritic that I had seen somewhere. Because I remember being surprised when I saw it and I was like, here? Like, really? They have vampires in ancient Greece? Because that just seems so out of place for me. Yeah, there's Lamia.
00:21:15
Speaker
who is like a sneak, well, she's a woman whose children are killed because they are Zeus' children by Hera, because she loves doing that. I mean, they love something that I've put up with, to be fair.
00:21:31
Speaker
You might have also heard of the poem Lemaire as well and it's kind of like she's like a snake entity and then she swears vengeance and basically preys on the blood of mothers and babies which is somewhat counterintuitive actually if you think about it because her children were slaughtered. But most of these early vampiric figures are women who target other mothers and babies.
00:21:54
Speaker
I mean, we've spoken before in this podcast how, like, people who did mythology in the early days of folklore just didn't seem to like women for some reason. What? That's crazy. That's so weird. It's like we live in a patriarchal society. What? Women maligned?
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah, we have the title of our podcast. Yes, women the light of the podcast. Ridiculous. Because it's just such a visual. I mean, is that visual of the kind of, because all of these mythologies and all of these folklaws are definitely a lot more
00:22:39
Speaker
removed, I suppose, visually from what we would think of when we depict a vampire. I mean, I guess when you depict a vampire, you think of someone more kind of European, I guess, or like more, you know, it's like the pale skin and the dark hair and the evening dress and, you know, all of that kind of thing. So is that, did that also start early on? Or is that something that's just happened because of Bram Stoker's novel?
00:23:02
Speaker
Well, weirdly enough actually, vampires were a major source of anxiety in medieval and early modern Europe, like actually documented that people were worried about vampires at the time. So you have chroniclers like the 12th century chronicler William of Newberg who basically records these rise in vampire
00:23:26
Speaker
like sightings called revenants, which are different. So they rise from the grave and do the same thing kind of thing. They go about their day or they'll go and terrorize their, their loved ones. So they'll like knock on the door and they'll come in and they won't know. It's, they'll be like, oh my God, wow, you're alive. Amazing. And then they'll go, oh, but they're dripping blood from their mouth and their hair's grown longer and their nails are really long. Classic Bob, really.
00:23:56
Speaker
Let's play those games. Really let himself go. He really did. Like, what's with the rotting flesh, boss? But you also have, even into the 17th century as well, you've got a monk called Antonine Augustine Chamet who records reports of literally interred dead, noisily feeding on their own flesh within their graves. Ooh. Oh, man.
00:24:22
Speaker
So they were just so hungry and needing blood that they would just gnaw on themselves essentially. And then you get even in the 18th century, you get vampire attacks happening as well. So they become extremely frequent in East Prussia and the Habsburg. There's two major incidents from the 1720s to the 1730s where literally they are seeing the walking dead.
00:24:52
Speaker
come along and consuming the blood of the living. Is it blood? Which I mean, I guess that's sort of still quite Europe based. I mean, Jess, you're based across the pond, as we say. We've already spoken about surprising amount of mummies being in the US. But what about vampires? Was that also a thing in the US?
00:25:20
Speaker
It was. So in New England specifically, which is where I'm from, there was a vampire panic, quote unquote, in the 18th and early 19th centuries. And so it really stemmed from tuberculosis, which was rampant at the time. And so the first member of the family to die, they would have no connection between their death and then the future deaths of family members, because of course,
00:25:43
Speaker
you know, the person with tuberculosis is like sick in bed and everybody's crowded around and like breathing in the same air, delightful. And they're like, Oh, no, they've died. And it's not that we've been past this disease or this bacterium. It's that they are coming back from the grave and sucking the life out of us because the, the typical signs of consumption are
00:26:06
Speaker
being super pale and, you know, you're wasting away. And so it's just it's consuming you from the inside, which is why they call the consumption. And so there's like specific records in Rhode Island, I think, where people would dig up the first family member to die and check if there is fresh blood in their body. And if they were, they would burn the heart and then give the ashes of the burned heart to the dying family members as like a great.
00:26:36
Speaker
great, lovely sounding cure, which obviously did nothing. So that really helped with the infection? Yeah, no, I don't think Charred Heart is really going to be the thing, but that was their theory. There's also archaeological records
00:26:57
Speaker
or if they were already skeletonized by the time they figured out who the first person who died was, they would rearrange the skeleton. So like the leg bone, like the femurs would be crossed on the chest with a skull on top, like a skull and crossbones.
00:27:13
Speaker
Or the skull would be placed in between the feet, basically anything that would keep them from coming back from the grave. It just makes me wonder, like, how did they know what the vampire looked like? So it would, it would be because of the pale skin and the consumption looking esk-ness. How would they figure that out? I mean, other than I have no idea, because I don't, there's no records of like them seeing the previously deceased person.
00:27:43
Speaker
So they're just like, oh, they must be coming back from the grave and sucking the life force out of these people. And so, like, there's a rumor that Bram Stoker got some of his inspiration from the New England vampire panic because he was on tour with some theater company at the time. Other people think the timelines don't quite line up because he wrote it for seven years. But I think it's Mina Harker, right, who starts like wasting away when Dracula comes and visits her. And so it's like a similar
00:28:13
Speaker
concept. So rather than having this image of a vampire, I think they had more of a concept of energy being stolen, if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So I don't know how we discovered what vampires should look like, but it sounds like some people think that they should be bloated and dead and
00:28:37
Speaker
very different from like my image of a vampire. Yeah, you already said Tilly, they look European with long hair.
Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episode
00:28:46
Speaker
So for me, a vampire now, I mean, a historical vampire is literally a corpse, isn't it really? But then now, if you look at the modern media and fantasy media around vampires, they're hot.
00:29:02
Speaker
like the good looking people. Yeah. And even if they're not before they become a vampire, they miraculously become good looking like after. Yeah, like Bella Swan.
00:29:16
Speaker
Which I also like that they're like, oh, look, now she's good looking. And you're like, oh, great. Yeah, because before she was a complete troll. Yeah, look, glasses. Oh, my God. Right. Oh, she's kind of fresh. She's taking her hair and she's taking her glasses off. Oh, my God. To be fair, though, and someone who has to constantly wear glasses, I would definitely turn into a vampire just for good eyesight. Oh, for sure. Same here. Oh, there's books flying around again.
00:29:46
Speaker
Oh God, is there? Oh God, they're so active today. What have you been feeding them, Tilly? I don't know, just some bookworms. One of them just tried to eat my hair. Hang on a sec. Okay, I'm really sorry, everyone. We're going to have to cut short this episode of And My Trial, but don't you worry, we haven't finished. We're going to be continuing our chat with Jess in our next episode with part two.
00:30:06
Speaker
In the meantime, don't forget, we're always looking for new episode ideas, so if you do have any suggestions, please get in contact via email or social media. All contact info plus anything that we have referenced during our chat with Jess today can be found in the show notes. Bye everyone! Bye! Bye!
00:30:26
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.