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Rhoda Fromme and the Rooster of Pazyryk (Part 1) - Ep 39
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This month, Tilly and Ash need to figure out how to archaeologically investigate ancient tattoos, in order to help out the Hamunaptra Revitalisation Society. Luckily, they are joined by archaeological conservator and professional tattoo artist Rhoda Fromme. Listen in to hear the answer to your burning archaeology and tattoo questions: What are the different meanings of tattoos? Is archaeology just jousting and bagpipes? And what’s the big deal with dots and lines?
Books Mentioned
- The Mortal Instruments series - Cassandra Clare
- Katie Bishop series - Luanne Bennett
- ACOTAR series - Sarah J. Maas
- Thud - Terry Pratchett
- Die Insel der Tausend Leuchttürme - Walter Moers
- Avatar the Last Airbender - TV Show
- Harry Potter series - J.K Rowling
- Moana - Disney
Links
Contact
- Email: andmytrowel@gmail.com
- Instagram: @and.my.trowel
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode, go to: https://www.archpodnet.com/trowel/39
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/archaeology-podcast-network?ref_id=5724
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast Theme
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You have my sword. And you have my bow. And my trowel.
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, you're listening to episode 39 of And My Trial, where we look at the fantastic side of archaeology and the archaeological side of fantasy. I'm Tilly.
Hosts' Perspectives on Tattoos
00:00:20
Speaker
And I'm Ash. And before we start, I have a slightly personal question for you, Ash.
00:00:25
Speaker
Okay, where's this going? I mean, not super personal, but kind of personal. Like also, especially for our viewers, our listeners who can't actually see you. But do you have any tattoos? and No, I don't. Mentally, I have tattoos. Financially, like I just don't have them right now, but I will. How about you?
00:00:43
Speaker
i also don't. Mainly because i I've, it's not that I don't want one, but it's more I can't decide on exactly what to get. And I feel like the more tattoos you have, the more, the less worried you are each time about them because it's sort of standard.
00:00:56
Speaker
But for me, at least
Identifying Tattoos for Mummies
00:00:57
Speaker
for the first one, I'm like, I want to be sure of my decision and be sure I know where to have it before, you know, adding something that that's sort of permanent. Yeah, I also feel like I'll just get the itch and I'll just want loads of tattoos. Right, I've heard it's very addictive. Yeah, I have a very addictive personality, so I think that would happen to me.
00:01:15
Speaker
But why you asking me about tattoos? Right, yes. Well, so today we have quite a fun job ahead of us, actually, because we're going to be identifying tattoos. which is exciting.
00:01:26
Speaker
So let me give you the situation. we were approached by the Hamanaptra Revitalization Society, which, as of course you know, is the leading national society that helps recently revive mummies, regain their past personhood, understand how to fit into the modern world, e etc.
00:01:41
Speaker
And they have a new initiative where they want to help their members learn about themselves in a more physical sense, because quite a lot of them have been mummies for a very, very, very long time and they can't actually really remember anymore who they were in their previous life.
00:01:54
Speaker
So one way that they want to do this is by trying to identify the presence of kind of personalized ornamentation, for example, tattoos. But for this, they need our help.
Guest Appearance: Rhoda Frammer
00:02:03
Speaker
Okay, but wait, how can we help them? i I don't know anything about how to analyze or identify tattoos in an archaeological record or standpoint. To be honest, me neither. But luckily, we have someone here who can help us for this particular quest. Okay.
00:02:18
Speaker
I'd like to introduce you to our amazing guest this week, Rhoda Frammer, who is not only a restorer and a conservator of archaeological artifacts, but is also a professional tattoo artist. Amazing! Welcome, Rhoda.
00:02:29
Speaker
Hello. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having
Rhoda's Archaeological Journey
00:02:33
Speaker
me. I'm so excited that we have you on the show. I've been following you on Instagram for so long. and then it's like, let's just ask her. The worst thing I can say is she says no. that you yeah like the Stonehenge tattoo one you did. I was like, was so tempted. i Thank you. and so bad day Really, really cool.
00:02:48
Speaker
But which and OK, so hang on. We'll get to your tattooing in a second. But you also are a ah rest restorer, restorator. I'm never sure what the I know that we learned. We learned this with Jess, didn't we, Ash? In one of our previous episodes, she taught us the difference in the names.
00:03:02
Speaker
And I can't remember anymore. I'm really sorry, Jess, if you're listening to this because she was also a conservator. But she was an art conservator. You are a conservator of archaeological artifacts. How did you get into that sort of specialism?
00:03:14
Speaker
Well, I was interested in in like like normal history for a while. It started with the teenage years when like Viking metal and medieval folk music was a thing. And you always go to the medieval markets and stuff.
00:03:29
Speaker
While being at these medieval markets with all my friends and my boyfriend at the time, I figured that, oh, there's more than just the medieval times.
Curiosity and Conservation
00:03:37
Speaker
Wow. Yes, there is everybody. yeah' more There's more than Vikings and guys with bagpipes.
00:03:44
Speaker
so What? Historically accurate. yeah and And actually my my boyfriend at the time, he is one or two years older than me. When I was finishing school, he started studying pre-stock archaeology.
00:04:01
Speaker
I was like, Oh my God, this sounds like so much fun. After I finished my normal school, I asked him if I could attend classes and like, just got like a access.
00:04:13
Speaker
ah yeah that certainly gang Because I was so interested in like the topics and to figure out that there's more than Vikings and more than Justing, you know, was saying, so attended classes for like Bronze Age and Iron Age stuff. And i actually asked because I didn't know what to do with my life. And my boyfriend was going to my then boyfriend was going to his first excavation.
00:04:42
Speaker
if I could maybe join for like a week or two. And for whatever reason, the professor said, yeah, sure. Why not? I'm not even a student.
00:04:54
Speaker
went to my- The other team is probably happy for the free labor. Yeah, most likely. and When I was there, I was like, you know all the digging and stuff. And then I had the situation that I found like dirt covered piece of something. oh And I was like, oh, like every archaeologist, is you know, like, oh, what is it? What is it? i want to know what it is.
00:05:13
Speaker
And then the head archaeologist came to me and was like, nope, I have to take this away from you, put it in a box and send it away. what? What? Who's getting the box? Who is the one who's getting to look at this? Who's the one who gets to figure out all secrets and stuff?
00:05:30
Speaker
And he then told me, oh, yeah, those are the resurrected, conservative guys. And like, oh, I want to be the one who gets the box. That is the best origin story have ever heard. That is so cool.
00:05:43
Speaker
You're like, how do I get to that box? Have you ever found the box? There needs to be a film about this where you find that box. I found i found out the the name of the guy who who was the one who got the box. And like funny funnily enough, this guy is the husband of my then later ah chemistry professor in university. Small world. Small world in archaeology. Yeah, it is.
00:06:05
Speaker
That's amazing. So yeah, I wanted to be the one who gets the box and now I am. And now you've got the box.
From Metal Scene to Tattooing
00:06:10
Speaker
I all the boxes. All the boxes with all the hidden treasures. So we know archaeology came first, right? Or did the tattooing also come alongside it? Like, how did you get venture into tattooing as well?
00:06:21
Speaker
It kind of came both at the same time. Okay. Because when you spend so much time with and Viking metal dudes, you will see tattoos eventually, you know. It's an evolution. Yes.
00:06:35
Speaker
and Especially in the in the metal scene, you know, there's just so many tattooed people and it's just like kind of kind of normal. And my sister got tattooed very, my older sister got tattooed very early on. She also did in the first ones like super punk rock style with a needle and a you kind of, nice you know, and but the the archaeology and the tattooing kind of came both at the same time.
00:07:00
Speaker
Like it there was no first, it was like both and kind of kind of evolutionized in the same and the same breath. yes Kind of. And then the excitement for both grew like, like what, how do you say it? Like in the same, yeah. exponent
00:07:23
Speaker
And did you also then always, because you mentioned that you already from the start of archaeology had more of an interest in kind of the prehistoric time periods everything. So was the tattooing also more prehistory inspired from the start or did you sort of. Oh yes. No, actually, yes. I got this asked recently actually, and somebody asked me, how did you switch over to archaeology? And I never did. just started. I was born an archaeologist.
00:07:52
Speaker
I never
Tattoo Art and Cultural Heritage
00:07:53
Speaker
did these kind of infinity signs or stuff like that. Oh my gosh, the infinity signs. Yes, birds flying away from the... Ritual! Ritual! For the infinity side, I feel we need a ritual buzzer.
00:08:11
Speaker
No, but actually now looking back, I know my that my first ever tattoo that I did was on said boyfriend at the time. And it's, you know, these, I don't know the English word for it, but in German it's Kreisauge.
00:08:25
Speaker
It's this, it's the circle with the dot in the middle. Yeah. The evil eye, right? Is it? Yeah, but it's an evil eye. Well, it's lucky, but it's called, I think we still call it the evil eye or do we call it something else? The evil eye wards away evil.
00:08:38
Speaker
Yeah. It's evil in itself. Yeah, but it's not the blue one from this. Oh, it's not the blue one. No, no, no, no. It's just a circle, random circle and the dot in the middle. It's a... Like a cup and ring mark.
00:08:50
Speaker
Ring mark? It's like a cup and ring mark. Yeah, like the carvings in Scotland and they're all basically, yeah, that's basically what they are. they' It's a circle of the covenant. You need to chat with rock art specialists in Scotland because you've discovered the cup and ring mark without even knowing about the cup and ring mark.
00:09:12
Speaker
but Yeah, so no, Kreis Argo. I've just looked it up for for those listening because I was curious. So yeah, it's literally just it's the circle with a dot in the middle, which funnily enough, I have a set of replica dice here right in front of me and they have exactly the same.
00:09:24
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And that's that kind of they kind of symbol or like that kind of kind of motif is like so old. Yeah. In several different cultures and throughout the ages.
00:09:35
Speaker
That was the first tattoo that I ever did. on said boyfriend and then the second tattoo that I ever did was like a you know these bronze age little reindeer from Denmark.
00:09:49
Speaker
I love them. They're so cute. And I was on my myself so it just started with prehistoric designs. And is that the, I'm trying to remember now, your like logo I guess you could call it.
00:10:01
Speaker
Was that one of the little reindeer or was that? It's inspired by those little rangers. I think it's very cute as well. Yes, by the way, if anyone doesn't already follow Rhoda and wants to see these amazing... What I really love about your tattoos is that they're sort of minimalist tattoos almost. like they're kind of very yeah They look very simple, but they're so clever. like They're just so well designed. I really love that. Yeah, thank you.
00:10:25
Speaker
and So do you find that a lot of your kind of customers are already interested in archaeology or the context of your tattoos? Or is it the other way around? Like you're kind of telling people about the archaeology and then they're coming to you or and they get something and they go, oh, actually, this is, you know, reindeer from Denmark.
00:10:41
Speaker
Like, how does it how does it go for you and the interactions with your customers? it's It's it varies. Most of them are not most of them, but many of them are already in the archaeology field.
00:10:54
Speaker
Like archaeology friends, restoration friends, you or just basic archaeology nerds that are like yeah and caretakers in their everyday life. And then when they are home, they do bone carvings. Undercover life. yeah no Yeah. I have amazing many, many of of those who and then come to me and say, oh man, this cave painting is so cool. Or have you seen this artifact? like that.
00:11:21
Speaker
stuff like that But then i and i don't only do cave paintings and I'm i'm not only doing artifacts. I do a variety of things that are mainly inspired by prehistoric artifacts. Because when i when I see, for example, a piece of pottery or like, a I don't know, something that has designs on it sometimes i mean i immediately think, oh, that would look nice as hand tattoo.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, because you take the motif, don't you, from that and then place it on the plate on the on the body. like I particularly like there the one on the foot, of the the boat from... Yeah. yeah The Tannum Bronze Age boat. Yeah, I love that one.
00:12:08
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And with these more... simple designs that I, that are not like figurative, but just lines and dots, lines and dots, which I love, like, like lights and dots forever and always my personal precious.
00:12:29
Speaker
mean, isn't the precious just circle anyway. Right. Really? It's just a continuous line. We've all got a bit of Gollum inside of us. Exactly.
00:12:43
Speaker
ah With these lines and dots, there are also other people coming to me and say, oh, and this is so minimalistic. And I love how expression it is, is even if it's not saying a lot, because I don't write texts or I don't, you know, do birds or actually I did a bird recently, but it's the bird on a stone-age bird.
00:13:01
Speaker
little yeah Yeah. Well, the bird on the stick. Yeah. i so that way Recently I tattooed the little bone, I don't know if if it is actually bone, but this little stone figurine of a tiny bird from the like stone. Don't count me on it. it It's paleolithicum or you But this little figurative water bird that was found in in yeah southern Germany in at the cave of Vogelherd.
00:13:32
Speaker
Vogelherd, yes. i I know the one you're talking about now. I remember seeing ah picture of it somewhere. Where did I see that? I can't remember now. But yes, and it was so cute. It's a little like... Yes. that titles are very So yeah, I do birds apparently. There you Prehistoric Paleolithic birds. Yes.
00:13:49
Speaker
Not sort of a pair of swallows. But like my my main focus, I can do cave paintings all day, every day. But my main focus or where i want to go to is to take what we have in our central European past, like from artifacts, from cave paintings, from whatever we find in the ground or on walls, kind of kind of use this knowledge and reinterpret them into something that could have been
Cultural Sensitivity in Tattooing
00:14:20
Speaker
tattooing culture.
00:14:23
Speaker
Which I like that you're indeed taking them from sort of, in quotes, local sort of history in that respect as well. Because I think a lot of people also assume that if you're getting tattoos, you have to get something that's more, don't know, I hate using the word, but sort of exotic. Or, you know, you have to get like the stereotypical tattoos from from this place or that place. But actually, there's so much indeed that's kind of...
00:14:47
Speaker
not, you know, yeah, it's local, basically. Sort of historic, prehistoric, local symbols that still can be relevant and then not then taking off another culture's symbols. Yes, yes, yes. I try to be...
00:15:03
Speaker
super aware of the fact that and we have indigenous cultures yeah that have tattooing practices as of and they're growing. And I love that. I wish I was indigenous and could just cover myself in those. day object from my culture you know ah I would look so bad as and then all the knowledge that comes with it. And I admire them so much. And since we don't have that in central Europe because of evolution and you know, yeah the way we kind of forgot about it, but we do have tattooed people yeah in Europe and has been around for so long. And ah since I've been studying and working with indigenous cultures so much, I have the, I feel the urge to have something for our own like local and knowledge.
00:15:51
Speaker
And since we don't have anything that's like so old and is still around other than archeological finds. yeah I use those because while studying the other cultures, I realized that the material culture is very, very often extremely close to the tattooing culture.
00:16:12
Speaker
What you see on textiles? What you see on pottery? or What do you see on whatever? Yeah. Whatever patterns you see on the material culture? Yeah. Used to be also tattooing culture in many, many cultures.
00:16:25
Speaker
So why not? Why not do this for our culture as well? so um And like you say, it's nice because it's taking something from our region. It's acknowledging the fact that we don't have that ongoing tradition that they do in yeah a lot of other cultures. and yes And it's plausible since it's proven that other cultures do this yeah we for many, many, many centuries and years and still are doing it.
00:16:50
Speaker
yeah So why not use this with our own stuff as well? Well,
Break and Refreshment
00:16:55
Speaker
it sounds like we've definitely found the right person help us with this particular has the quest. We're going to have to dive also a little bit into the literature review soon. But first of all, I'm feeling a little bit like a revitalised mummy myself. Does anyone want a cup of something?
00:17:08
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that sounds lovely. Okay, great. Then we'll be right back, Okay, I'm feeling a little bit more awake after that. Yeah, me too. Thank God. Rhoda, actually, I forgot to ask you about something. I'm thinking about your own tattoos. Oh gosh, true. yeah yeah and no you I don't have any. No tattoos. I don't don't stand out and don't have any.
00:17:37
Speaker
But since it's an audio format, our listeners can't actually see you. So but tell us about a bit about your tattoos. What was your first tattoo? Oh, actually, my first tattoo is also a cave painting. Excellent.
00:17:50
Speaker
Irish form. Yeah. The Irish elk, the big stag from Chauvet. Oh, yeah. With the beautiful antlers. though Yeah, that was my very first. So started with archaeology and never stopped.
00:18:04
Speaker
Perfect. So is it one of those things, like we were asking at the beginning, is it like slightly addictive? Like, do you are you now just covered with cave paintings, basically? or Are you a cave? I am the cave. Yeah.
00:18:18
Speaker
Well, my bag, my bag is for sure. Cool. and have Five cave paintings on my back, but the rest is mainly, like I said, dots and lines for life. it's Yeah. man Fascinating. You basically, you have context, like, is it all the same cave? Like that's so cool. No, it's not the same cave.
00:18:41
Speaker
But it's the Rhoda cave. It's, you know, the story of Rhoda. There you go. But that's an archaeological record in itself. Like, if those cave paintings everything ever happened to them, we'd be like, Rhoda, hi. Rhoda, can we Can we still have your back? Yeah, I hope you did this accurately.
00:19:00
Speaker
Damn, and one one of them is red in the original, but it's black on my back. Oh, no. I'll never get the documentation right. God. Oh, but then that's just showing, you know, the new styles, right? New fashion changes, the changes from colour to black white. And then, yeah, it's all... And then we go to, like, Danny Totemic Tattoo on social media, his tattoos, which are just riot of colour. So, you know, we've got the full... Oh, his work is so amazing. that It's very cool. Very cool. Which, okay, so we know a little bit more about you. We can picture you in our minds, a back full of cave paintings.
00:19:33
Speaker
And God's minds. We know more about the your background. Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha. That was terrible. I love it. love Maybe I do need to another coffee. um and We've talked a little bit about kind of tattooing and sort of different tattooing traditions and things. We'll get more into that later, I think. But so maybe we need to start thinking then about how to actually tackle this problem.
Fantasy vs. Sci-Fi: Definitions and Tropes
00:19:55
Speaker
Perhaps we should look at the existing cases of tattoos in fantasy worlds. That is a good idea. And of course, Rhoda, as you are likely aware when I sent you the video,
00:20:07
Speaker
pitch for this podcast are coming on the episode. We are archaeologists, we look at archaeology, but we also look at fantasy and fantasy fiction. So of course, I do have to ask you, do you enjoy reading fantasy?
00:20:19
Speaker
Actually, I don't read. Do you want to read? I know. I get tired so quickly. That's fair. That's i more more of an audiobook and... Well, that's What's reading when you watch your...
00:20:36
Speaker
I feel like audio books are reading. We've had this discussion many times in our book club about whether audio books count as reading. And I say they do because traditional... Oh, then I read, yeah. Oh, excellent. Well, yeah, good, I'll ask again then. Do you enjoy reading fantasy?
00:20:54
Speaker
I do. Yay! Yay!
00:20:58
Speaker
What kind of sort of fantasy books or series are you were into? We have talked about this before, like what counts for fantasy? What is fantasy? That was to give a little background. The only question that Rhoda came to me when I sent her this sort of overview was like, quick question, what's the definition of fantasy? And I was thinking, oh no.
00:21:18
Speaker
I have no idea. I think it can vary. Fantasy can be urban fantasy. can be anything that's basically not in our own reality. But then it can be in our own reality, but then adjacent to our reality with like a magical system.
00:21:31
Speaker
So it totally depends. I think fantasy is really... Actually, if you think about it, Mission Impossible and things like that are fantasy. because Yes, isn't everything a fantasy? Tom Cruise's own fantasy. Pretty existential here, right?
00:21:46
Speaker
But also like, so because there's always fantasy sci-fi, which, how would you define the difference between fantasy and sci-fi? Aliens. Aliens, robot space. Sci-fi. But they do, they bridge the gap. but they They cross over into each other.
00:22:03
Speaker
Because you have like Jules Verne, right? He's like the the king of sci-fi. and It's also fantasy. ah But it's also fantasy. But that was all very... i feel like it's more a technological thing, sci-fi, to me.
00:22:16
Speaker
Like if there's sort of... very specific technology like but then fantasy can also have that but sci-fi is more based on the science or the technology of it something for for example my my my boyfriend listening to this i don't know if it's sci-fi or fantasy or something it's like magic but with powder i forgot the author i don't know but it's like oh you're powder mage kind of thing and like what How does the word mage that is 100%
Tattoos in Fantasy Literature
00:22:47
Speaker
fantasy? i was about to say mage says to me fantasy but then techno.
00:22:51
Speaker
But this is like some kind of black powder. I don't know. Like what is this? Genres are only relevant to publishers really if you think true. yeah Yeah. Because that's their marketing right? So actually fantasy sci-fi romanticy everything can kind of bridge the gap in between each other yeah there are sometimes stricter kind of tropes through fantasy like you know we've talked about a few of those in the podcast previously like the chosen one and the dark lord and things like that i love doing the dark lord the dark lord that was such a good episode that was a fun one yeah it was
00:23:25
Speaker
you stuff like that they have these kind of strict tropes but they can but you can still have a dark lord in sci-fi like that's star wars that's you know Darth Vader so like it's also Harry Potter come on yeah so yeah it bridges the gap so if you're reading something that is sci-fi fantasy romanticy anything and that's still fantasy to us I think yeah yeah so yeah When it comes to fantasy, like the broad sci-fi fantasy and stuff, I'm a very basic, basic girl.
00:23:56
Speaker
love Harry Potter. Ah, you're a part of the Harry Potter troupe. Even though I've only started reading books like three years ago. Oh, really? Okay. Nice. It was the movies first and then i wanted to read them when I was the kid, but I never could get past the Dursleys. I was like, this is so annoying. i know what's coming after. i have seen the movies, but this first chapter is so annoying. I'm not reading this.
00:24:23
Speaker
But I'm curious how you found that because I remember when I went back and tried to read them later because the first one, like you sort of were growing up with them like when they came out. So they definitely get a lot more like adults and the language gets potentially more sophisticated. Like the first ones feel more to me like children's books. But did you still find you were able to get into them and then...
00:24:40
Speaker
you just didn't notice it changing while reading them as an adult? I noticed it changing. But I also remember when I was ah kid, we for some reason, I only had the third book as a cassette audio book, but not the first or the second and neither of the later ones.
00:24:59
Speaker
yeah yeah We had to do the third one over and over and over again. so then reading the first one and like oh this is actually a children's book yeah yeah yeah but then yeah it progresses yeah it definitely gets a lot darker the further along you go yeah but do they have magical tattoos in harry potter oh but yes it's been a while since i read them the death eaters the death eaters have the death eater symbol on their lower arm on the inside and when they touch it or something they have like a
00:25:33
Speaker
Bad signal for Voldemort. Right. Yes. You know, the Scowl. Just put it into the... Yeah. Voldemort, come to us. This is a proper crossover of different fantasy genres.
Tattoos in Films and Series
00:25:46
Speaker
Bad
00:25:48
Speaker
super bag comes the if So yeah, they do have tattoos. Yeah. No, that's fair. I'm trying to think of other, I mean, of course, you know, one series which has some magical tattoos. and Hey, come on. It's been a while actually since I've mentioned.
00:26:05
Speaker
don't think so. You don't understand the live i should have last episode. Okay, nevermind. I thought that I didn't mention it in the last... Anyway, whatever. I think you mention it every... Why are you referring to?
00:26:16
Speaker
I'm referring to. No wonder that is that this world preached. No, no, no, no, no. I need to make a new button that's like... oh every time i want to talk about Discworld.
00:26:28
Speaker
No, but it is very cool, actually. So there's one, there's actually, and it's similar to what we were talking about before the break, actually, Rhoda, with the fact that tattoos are then related to other parts of material culture and everything, because it's the dwarvish mind signs in Discworld, and they sort of mean different things. And you've got these different ones. So there's the following dark, the summoning dark, the all these different kinds of dark, and they all mean different things depending on the context and all this kind of thing. And so they're usually drawn on the side of a cave, or they're usually...
00:26:57
Speaker
carved into a door. And there's one called the following dark or The Summoning Dark, which is kind of very dangerous. And that's almost like a curse one that you use to sort of show that it's danger and people shouldn't enter it.
00:27:07
Speaker
And Vimes, one of the main characters, has a little bit of, I don't want to do a spoiler, but yes, has a little bit of interaction with this in the form of a kind of tattoo in the book Thud.
00:27:18
Speaker
So yes, that's, you know, there you go. Ha! Got it in.
00:27:24
Speaker
like that would fire fire Fun side story on this. I wanted to listen to an audio book of the the squirrel kind of realm, but then the audio book starts with the most hideous bagpipes for the longest time.
00:27:36
Speaker
Really? Yes. don't know. It's in German. It's like 10 minutes of hideous bagpipes. I can't. Oh, yeah, that's not good. I'm not listening to this.
00:27:50
Speaker
That's fair. I accept. That's okay. but But I have to be honest, I couldn't really think of many other books that were featuring sort of fantasy books that featured tattoos. I had to look some up. I don't know if you are aware of any, Ash, of ah from your own reading? but my Immediately, i I thought of more urban fantasy with the tattoos. So you've got like...
00:28:17
Speaker
Well, first of all, I thought of the the Kate Bishop series. Now, this is ah as a small press, so I'm not sure if people know, but this starts with the Crossroad of Bones, and it's by Luanne Bennett.
00:28:31
Speaker
That's her name. Luanne Bennett. And she basically has a huge dragon tattoo on her back. Oh, dragon tattoos. yeah i think everyone has a dragon tattoo. But there's the girl with the dragon tattoo. but the girl with a dragon tattoo isn't fantasy, right? That's to.
00:28:42
Speaker
No, it's not a fantasy. Actually, she's a tattoo artist, the main character. yay. And she has a truck called Magic Ink. So I wonder what they do when make magical tattoos and stuff like that. So basically, she is called the dragon because she has this dragon tattoo, but it's actually a birthmark. So I didn't know if it classified, but she is a tattoo artist.
00:29:04
Speaker
And then I thought of the Shadowhunter series by Cassandra Clare. Mm-hmm. That was like a YA fantasy, like urban fantasy from years ago. and like And basically they have, that I think most tattoos in fantasy relate to fairies or the fae a lot of the time too.
00:29:24
Speaker
so they're connected to the fae and these like shadow hunters that kill like, you know, evil entities have, they have tattoos on them and they give them magical like powers and things like that too. Okay.
00:29:36
Speaker
And they're also, i think quite a lot of the time, almost like identifying marks in fantasy. Like I'm trying to, the ones that I knew, it was more sort of people had a mark and then that showed that they were part of a particular clan or a particular, i don't know, yeah a particular magical group or, you know, something like that. So it was sort of... Oh, you have it in like, especially romance, fantasy, romanticy, where they have mate marks essentially. So like, I think Sarah J Maas does this in her ACOTAR series where like,
00:30:06
Speaker
this like Freya has a tattoo when she gets married to this fae guy with a bat boy kind you know my reason it was Rysand, Rysand, whatever and well and like in like they have like these kind of marriage marks and stuff like that so that's quite a common trope you find in fantasy especially relating to the fae it seems like some sort of bargain or something is made so that they they're branded and in a kind of tattoo okay yeah yeah no But yeah, because and i don't know if you know any other books, Rhoda, that you've read, which also feature, apart from Harry Potter, of course. but feature Other series or other other books that feature tattoos. ah Books, I can only think of one that I've been reading for the past year because I only read one page a month.
00:30:57
Speaker
it's It's a German author. and His name is Walter Mörs and he has this fantasy book series called They play in a certain certain realm.
00:31:09
Speaker
And the book that has recently come out is takes place on an island, and like a super rough, more like ah not not a super beautiful, warm palm tree island, but more more rough. and okay No, hard.
00:31:26
Speaker
Like
Episode Wrap-up and Teaser
00:31:27
Speaker
dystopian island. Yeah. yeah it's Not dystopian. It's more like, it's you can you could say it's like the typical Northern German landscape. Right. Yes. I feel like it's sort of Northern UK beach where you're like, have fun this summer and you're there like... Yes, exactly that. And local fishermen all have like this optical illusion tattoos on their skin where they...
00:31:54
Speaker
and look like they're moving but they're not and it's all the motives of the fishing culture okay okay yes i translate the book to the island of a thousand light lighthouses okay the island of a thousand lighthouses wow that's tricky That's a proper tongue twister. We don't know if it's actually translated into that, but the German title is Die Insel der Tausend Licht... Okay. Was? Nee, warte.
00:32:23
Speaker
Die Insel der Tausend Leuchttürme. There we go. See, it's a tongue twister in every language. Oh, yeah. And then other books, I don't know if it's in The Hobbit, but in the movies, one of the...
00:32:35
Speaker
Dwarfs also has tattoos covered all over him, which are also in the same design as they have on night there the They're very very similar. I don't know if it's in the books as well, but in the in the movies they adapted it. I don't think it is mentioned in the books that they have tattoos. I mean, to be fair, I could imagine being a dwarf, you have tattoos.
00:33:00
Speaker
and In the books, the descriptions are very minimal, I would say. yeah yeah wos It's very much, he had a blue hood. sort of it ah Yeah, the clothing is much more.
00:33:11
Speaker
yeah two thousand to Yeah, the natural appearance. Yeah. Yeah. When thinking about other realms that are not books, because it's also my childhood, it's Avatar The Last Airbender.
00:33:24
Speaker
yes. Yeah. You know, yeah the the air nomads. Yeah. The air banners get there. I think it's an initiation tattoo when they get the arrows on the head and the arm and as soon as they finish their education, I think.
00:33:39
Speaker
I don't remember correctly, but but not all air nomads that have it. Yeah. No, I don't think so. I think all of them who finished their proper air bending training get the arrows.
00:33:55
Speaker
Yeah. That's like a blue arrow that goes across the top of the head and then onto their forehead. And back on their spine, onto their arms and hands, and then down the legs onto their feet. That's a one hell of a tattoo. Yes.
00:34:08
Speaker
super sit Must be such a pain. And then another one, I have a few written down when to come because I love watching movies.
00:34:20
Speaker
isn' it and You also have the and Maui, the half of god of Viana. He's covered it in his tattoos that also move. Yeah, the little mini Maui. Yes, the mini Maui. And I...
00:34:33
Speaker
and If I remember correctly, those tattoos also ah ah only appear when a story has been told. Yes, true. yeah Every time he completes like a quest the sort of thing, he gets a new… So it's a storytelling tattoo.
00:34:47
Speaker
And they move and then they appear and you know and I find them super fun. Yeah, no, those are really cool. I do like those. those sort one So yeah, there's a couple of different sorts then, I think, that we've sort of managed to identify, like storytelling ones, ones for marking, ones for ah particular iconographies, sort of cultural associations, power things. And yeah, I think.
00:35:08
Speaker
And there are so many more. You have tattoos in Dune, you have tattoos in Avatar from Pandora. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I've just remembered. All of this talk of tattooing has reminded me that I forgot to sort the needle and haystack exhibit for the new magical agricultural museum that's opening next week. Ash, do you mind quickly helping me out with that?
00:35:27
Speaker
like what? You didn't tell me about this exhibition. No, I'm sure I... Okay, well, hang on. I'll tell you on the way to the depot. Right. So sorry, everyone. We need to cut short this episode of At My Trial, but don't worry. We'll be continuing next episode with part two, where we will be discussing the archaeology of tattoos with Rhoda in more detail.
00:35:45
Speaker
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00:35:58
Speaker
As always, if you have any episode ideas or if you just want to get in touch, you can find all of our information as well as links and further information on what we discussed today in the show notes.
00:36:11
Speaker
The Archaeology Podcast Network is 10 years old this year. Our executive producer is Ashley Airy. Our social media coordinator is Matilda Sebrecht. And our chief editor is Rachel Roden. The Archaeology Podcast Network was co-founded by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle in 2014 and is part of Cultural Media and DigTech LLC. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:36:31
Speaker
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