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The Wyrm That Stole Yule (part 1) - Ep 33
86 Plays9 days ago
In arguably their most important quest yet, Ash and Tilly have to prevent Ragnarok! Yggdrasil, the world tree, is missing, and the Asgard Yuletide Committee needs a replacement to decorate for their upcoming Yule celebrations. Luckily, they are joined by return guest Genoveva Dimova, archaeobotanist and fantasy author. Together, they discuss the symbolism of trees in fantasy fiction and mythology and attempt to answer the ultimate question: which is the greatest tree of all?
Books Mentioned
- The Great Tree of Avalon (T.A Barron)
- Wheel of Time series (Robert Jordan)
- Lord of the Rings (J.R.R Tolkien)
- The Shadow of the Gods (John Gwynne)
- Briar’s Book (Tamora Pierce)
- The Magic Faraway Tree (Enid Blyton)
- The Witch’s Heart (Genevieve Gornichec)
- Can’t Spell Treason Without Tea / A Pirates Life for Tea (Rebecca Thorne)
Links
- Hyndford roundhouses
- Must Farm
- Previous episode with Gen
- Gen's website
- Mythology of world trees
- The Poetic Edda
Contact
- Email: [email protected]
- Instagram: @and.my.trowel
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode, go to: https://www.archpodnet.com/trowel/33
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/archaeology-podcast-network?ref_id=5724
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 33
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You have my sword. And you have my boat. And my trowel.
00:00:11
Speaker
Hi, you're listening to episode 33 of And My Trial, where we look at the fantastic side of archeology and the archeological side of fantasy. I'm Ash. And I'm Tilly, but we don't have
Crisis: The Disappearance of the World Tree
00:00:22
Speaker
time to waste. Something terrible has happened in our world. I haven't even had my morning cauldron brew yet. Well, we're gonna need all the caffeine we can get with this one. We faced all kinds of danger before. Lost chosen ones, the ends of civilizations, dubious commercial contracts, but today is the worst by far. Oh God, what's happened?
00:00:41
Speaker
So, I saw Niedhauk and Jormungandrj, which I know I've completely messed up the pronunciation of those, but it's fine. The world serpent.
00:00:54
Speaker
Oh, we know Norman and Yomunganda, don't worry. But no, have they put in another complaint about Thor? Look, because I've told them before, they can't simply just show up to Thor's fishing trips without an invitation. It's really just not polite. Well, it's most certainly worse than bad manners. No, the World Tree has gone.
00:01:12
Speaker
but Sorry, what? Are you telling me Yagmusil, the giant ash tree that supports the universe and is central to our cosmos, is simply gone? But that means... Exactly! Ragnarok is upon us! but Okay, no, no, no, not happening. I'm not dealing with another apocalypse right now, like not after the last one. Okay, so we simply have to fix this. Yes. What did your manga say when you saw them?
00:01:37
Speaker
Well, I couldn't really hear them. They were chewing on their own tail for some reason, and but I didn't need to ask them anything because the huge empty space where the World Tree should be said enough, in my opinion. Also, it gets worse. We're being flooded with angry talking letters from Asgard's Yuletide Committee because they're extremely angry that they're not going to have a tree to decorate for their upcoming yule celebrations.
00:01:59
Speaker
Sorry, you really have to wonder about their priorities right now. To be fair, they've got other worlds that they can deal with, so I guess they're not too bothered about our one. Yeah, that's fair, that's fair. But first things first, we have to look at the appending apocalypse, okay? So yeah we can worry about tinsel later. Yes, agreed, agreed. But then how can we stop the apocalypse? Do we simply replace the tree, maybe?
00:02:22
Speaker
Tilly, you are a genius. oh epi yeah Thank you, thank you. That's exactly what we should do, though. We should replace the world tree with another world tree. Yeah, but okay, how are we going to do that, though? Because world trees aren't exactly common, unless I guess we have to find like a tree with a similar type or like a similar meaning or something. I i know who to
Insights with Genevieve Ademova: Archaeobotany and Dendrochronology
00:02:44
Speaker
call. Yeah. Archaeobotanist and fantasy fiction writer, Genevieve Ademova.
00:02:49
Speaker
Welcome back to Questing Gen. Oh, thank you for having me again. Oh my god, Jen. Thank you so much for popping on the show again. It's a good thing we have you on our, you know, portal speed dial. So of course, yeah this part usually in the guest episode, this is the part where the guests like tells us a little bit about themselves. But as we discovered when we had Jess on the for her second episode, we've also had Jen on the show before she helped us a little bit with our end problem in episodes six and seven. For those who can't remember, do go and check them out. So yeah, we've already had her on. So we already know all about Jen.
00:03:25
Speaker
Yes, we have had you on, Jen. And they were fab episodes, I assume you say so myself. We really helped out that historical society, Fanghorn Forest, I think. But maybe we can reintroduce you a little bit to our listeners, Jen. So what's your archaeology? Yeah, it was, it was. That was like six and seven. We were babies then. Oh my gosh, episode six and seven. And we're up to episode 32 now.
00:03:45
Speaker
but be lies to fly but know yeah not no time So what is your archaeological specialism gem? And how did you get into it? Well, if you're sure we have time because it sounds like we're having a bit of an emergency. Oh, fine. I mean, if they're worrying about tinsel, we can figure out. Plenty of time to the day Christmas shopping. that's Exactly. What's a bit of shopping with without an apocalypse, you know?
00:04:14
Speaker
stop Okay, so I actually have two specialisms now. I think I had two specialisms the last time we spoke as well. So I do archaeobotany, which is the study of archaeological plants. And I also do dendrochronology and the motorlogged wood, which is the study of wood in archaeology, essentially. So they are kind of connected, but we count them as two separate things.
00:04:36
Speaker
Yeah, because I guess what is the specific dating method, if I remember correctly? and so success Essentially, yeah, a dating method. But we, ah together with the denture, I do like quadrillion wood analysis, I looked at wooden objects, just anything to do with wood. Fair.
00:04:51
Speaker
and has there i mean because As you mentioned, you sort of talked about this a little bit last time. Has there been any developments in your RKO botany work? What are you currently working on or who do you work with or what are you working for at the moment that might have might be a little different from last time? Or is you at the same place? Are you still developing yourself? How's that going?
00:05:09
Speaker
and'm I'm still in professional archaeology and I'm currently working on a really cool site actually. It's a prehistoric wetland settlement that's in Heinfern in Lanarkshire. And we have three roundhouses.
00:05:25
Speaker
So yeah, it's like a little village that's all been preserved. It's a waterlogged material that's been preserved in peat. So we actually have the entire structure. And we have lots of really cool material culture. We have some really cool like wooden platters. We have two wooden wheels. One of them is Roman from a chariot. Nice. Yeah, we're currently doing the post-takes for that, so we'll have more information soon. But yeah, it's a really cool site and a really good opportunity for someone doing both archaeobotany and wood analysis.
00:05:56
Speaker
oh I had, so last month, it would be last month by the time this goes out, ah we had our APN10 celebration where we had like a whole day of live events. And I was interviewing Emma Jones, who works for Ancient Craft UK Prehistoric Jewelry. And they've been doing all this stuff about Must Farm with so of that like waterlogged site and everything. But with them, it was that the site basically caught fire and then like fell into the river, um Must Farm. Is that something similar with this one? How did it get preserved in the peak? Like, is it just that it sort of fizzled out over time or how did it get to where it got?
00:06:28
Speaker
So we think we haven't got exact dates yet, but we think what happened was that it was actually quite a short-lived settlement, we think maybe a generation, which is quite common in Scotland in wetland settlements. So I think that they built the houses and then essentially we're not sure, to be honest, whether they were abandoned for a reason, what exactly happened there. But the reason it's preserved is because it got encased in pits, so it's all waterlogged.
00:06:51
Speaker
Oh, okay, yeah. That's cool. You can almost imagine, like, if you say it's like a generational thing, you know, some dad, like, moving there, being like, all right, come on, no, trust me, this is the perfect place to build our house, and then her kid's going like, had oh my god, oh my god, this is hard, because then after like one generation, the wife's just like, no, I can't, no, I can't do this anymore, and I want to walk through a bug to get to my front door every single day. It's like, finally.
00:07:14
Speaker
I know, oh my god, we were there and we were excavating, it was so weird, like, it's not quite on settlement. yeah The rain was like on a summer day, it was beautiful, and then as soon as it rained, it was so muddy and disgusting. It was like the top of a hill, so it got really windy and cold as well, so I don't know what to think he was there.
00:07:33
Speaker
hashtag u k archaeology yeah absolutely it is the way archeology hey Yeah, you'll probably have to sit on your feature in the winter to warm it up so you can dig it. I remember for those days. them better than because when I was digging the arctic, we had we hit the permafrost at some point and it was so frustrating because you could literally see the objects, like ah you couldn't get them out because they were literally on top of them.
00:08:05
Speaker
yeah at some point we got we were getting to the end of the season and basically it was like well okay we're gonna have to cover this all up anyway so if we don't dig them out now they're never going to be dug up so you know let's just try our best to get them out so we were pouring boiling water over it we at some point put like a stove in the test pit because if you just left it in the sun for the day a it's the Arctic Sun so it wasn't like yeah burning hot but also yeah it just it would burn like it would maybe melt like half a centimeter so you'd get like a little bit more of that harpoon head out than you but oh so so also also fun anyway sorry
00:08:46
Speaker
No, it is, it's bad. Especially in Scotland, the weather is not great. I mean, all year round as well, it's always raining. So yeah, wetland site, not fun. But a lot of fun, organic stuff, great. Yes. Like, you can't get enough of the finds. So what do you enjoy about your work, Jen? What's your favourite bit?
00:09:06
Speaker
Oh, that's such a difficult question. I enjoy a lot of it. I think the thing that brought me to archaeology to begin with was the fact that I'm really interested in like the lives of ordinary people. So I did history, the way the Scottish system works is that you pick three different subjects to do for your first two years. I did history and I did archaeology. I very quickly realized that I prefer the archaeology because I'm not all that into like the sort of people that history books are written about. You have more about like just the lives of, yeah, working class people just trying to live their lives, get by. So I think what really attracted to my specialism is the fact that you can learn so much from plant remains, like you can learn about people are eating. And I think that really he helps you learn about their culture. You can learn about things like medicine, and you can also learn about things like trade and contact, which I think when we study culture separately, we kind of tend to forget about sometimes.
00:10:01
Speaker
like the fact that they're not living in this isolation, they're, you know, contact with each. When you find some plant material, something like figs, for example, or grapes in Scotland, which they don't grow here, you think, oh, where did that come from? Yeah. It's not a tropical environment. You can't grow grapes on a tropical, but like, whatever the environment is. I'll have you know, I get grapes and figs all the time and from the supermarket. Actually, to be fair, no, I had grapes when I lived in Scotland in my little, like, greenhouse-y conservatory thing that was built out of the house.
00:10:31
Speaker
Right, so we should need to go back in time and tell prehistoric people to get a conservatory. Yeah, just make glasses. It's not that hard. We have it everywhere here. Oh my god, I get a grip.
00:10:45
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, that that makes sense to me. I think that's something I mean, tell you talk about quite a lot. And it's sort of why we started this podcast is that you can actually tell stories through, through archaeology, you can understand people much more. And it kind of gives you a very unique perspective on human history. And we see that there's so many connections, and it's kind of cyclical, but connections, especially in the past, and there's a different way of living, I think, that we expose ourselves to, which I think is really important. And so we know, Jen, that you're a fantasy fiction writer as well. yeah So do you think this is why as well? Yeah, we do. We've read those. Well, and what's hilarious is the last time we had you on, yeah you were just about to release your first book, and then now you've released the second one.
00:11:33
Speaker
Which, you're like... ah Yeah, monstrous knights.
00:11:41
Speaker
She's in Waterstones, guys. Like, you can find her book. Recommend it. The first one is Fowl Days and the second one, which has just come out, it's called Monstrous Knights. And they're part of the witches' compendium of monsters duology. So can you tell us a little bit about that, Jen, and kind of update us on where you are as a writer?
Genevieve's Fantasy Duology: Themes of Escape and Survival
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, so my duology, it's based on Bulgarian folklore. And I always find it difficult if people tell me, oh, can you tell us about like, Monster's Nice, the second book, because I don't want to give people spoilers. Spoilers? Spoilers, don't you like it? No, no, don't. And sometimes, let's check it out. But you're a witch somewhere there. Hello. Yeah, the first book is about a witch and she lives in this city overrun with monsters and she trades her magic away to escape it through a magical barrier that's kind of like an equivalent of the Berlin Wall. Then she finds herself on the other side and she goes, oh no, firstly, she was trying to escape her ex-partner who was a terrible, abusive man, also known as the Tar of Monsters, and she discovers once she's on the other side that he's still hunting her, he's not quite as easy to escape from.
00:12:46
Speaker
And also once she trade her magic, she realizes that which is without magic don't survive for very long. So she needs to get it back. And that's kind of the idea behind the first book. And then in the second book without too many spoilers, it's more monsters, more murder, horrible. Obvious effects partners back and he's more horrible than ever. Oh, man. Thought we did the last of him.
00:13:07
Speaker
ah The Zimmi, he's right? Yeah. Yeah. What's your favourite fact about the Zimmi? Because I love this when you tell this story. Why do you like him so much as a monster? so Yeah, the Zimmi is my favourite monster. his So he has two forms. One of his forms is of a dragon with golden skills. And his second form is of a very handsome young man with golden hair and blue eyes.
00:13:31
Speaker
And what he does is he takes his second form and he goes to the well or to the village square. He uses a young woman and then he kidnaps her and takes her to his underground kingdom where he kind of sucks out her energy and her will to live until she dies within 40 days. so And like he's thought to be an equivalent of depression, because like if you have a woman has depression, if she does want to go out, if she's not feeling very well, we say that she must be in love with this May. So this terrible horrendous creature, the way to recognize him, if you have any sort of doubts that your handsome, golden-haired, blue-eyed lover might be a May, what you need to do is check his armpits, and if he has tiny little wings under his armpits, then he's a May.
00:14:14
Speaker
good to know i'll be checking that later yeah i just thought that it's like these tiny little links to wing So cute. Imagine if someone did have that, though, and then you worried that they were that there's a May, and then you're like, oh, no, wait. Good That would be quite scary. And remind me again, because I'm sure we talked about this to know. before, but what was your favorite fantasy book slash series? We did talk about this before. I'll be checking that later. I just thought it's like these tiny little wings. I think I went for Nightwatch by Terry Pratchett the last time. Oh, oh, look at that. I knew that was a reason we had you on again, Jen.
00:14:54
Speaker
And I still stand by choice. Yeah, you woke Jen straight into that. Not a leading question. No. So yeah, I think it's becoming a penguin classic, actually. So obviously, I'm not the only one. There we go. See, I was going to ask, like do you like do you not have one? And that's why you wrote one. So this is like, your own book is your favorite fancy book now. No. I still feel for myself, imagine, yeah, my my books are actually the best.
00:15:22
Speaker
ah so yeah I think, yeah, you write books because youre like you write what you want to read. That's a thing. But I think I also have taken so much inspiration from other books and other series. Yeah. Which makes sense. You kind of do though, don't you? I think in fantasy as well. that There's kind of archetypes and then you sort of have to build on them and then make it your own. And also you're kind of adding to that folklore element as well. You're adding to to the mystery.
00:15:51
Speaker
Oh, no, is that someone at the door? Let me see who it is. Oh, no, no, no, no. It's the As God You Child committee. I am not going down to that door. Everyone hide. OK, let's just remain quiet and for the next few minutes. OK, because then they'll go away. Right, guys, we'll be right back.
00:16:11
Speaker
Phew, there gone. Thank Odin. I was not about to to waste time arguing with those Asgardian Karens. I couldn't agree more. Okay, so now that we've got Jen here, maybe we can already start our literature review and sort of pull together our existing knowledge in order to get a preliminary idea of what we might be dealing with.
World Trees in Fantasy Novels and Mythologies
00:16:31
Speaker
Because yeah, I'd like to say I know about world trees but I don't really know much about trees so then it's great we have an archaeobotanist here. So what fantasy books have you both read that feature world trees? I have a few actually. Okay well obviously there's Lord of the Rings.
00:16:48
Speaker
Right. Yes. the Yes. ah The Valinor. Yes. Two trees of Valinor. Telferon and Lorelin, I think. Is that the moon and the sun ones? That's the moon and the sun. Yeah. And then you have the descendants of Telenfor, which is the white trees of Numenor and Gondor. The one. Yes. The one that needs to flower. And that shows that the kings have returned.
00:17:08
Speaker
yes the gonor Yes. And that happens to Aragon. When Aragon becomes king, the sapling of the white tree of Gondor is like discovered and then replanted and then I think it shows the rebirth of the line of kings and things like that. yes yeah And also those two trees symbolise divine connections between Numenor and the Valar.
00:17:28
Speaker
Yeah. I also love saying numenor. It's one of my favorite words. I just feel like an elf when I say it. like's just The language in general is just amazing. Yeah. but to
00:17:44
Speaker
yeah Okay. Yeah. there's I mean, I wouldn't say they were, yeah, true because the trees, the original trees, the two trees of Alinara are actually like life giving trees, right? Like they're, you could say they're world's trees.
00:17:56
Speaker
Yeah, they're not exactly world trees. I mean, I think because world trees, the idea of like a Yagresil is kind of very Norse, but world trees do like appear, and we'll talk about that in a little bit. but So I was also thinking, I've not read it, but Shadow of the Gods by John Yeah, so that's... Yeah, I was actually, when you asked the question, I was thinking like, what Norse mythology books have read, so yeah, Shadow of the Gods was really good. It was kind of written almost in the stuff in Norse Saga. It was really, really well done. I can't actually remember what role the world plays in there, but it's definitely there because it's Norse. Yeah, I think it's meant to be like reminiscent of Jagrasil, but I don't even know if it has a name. I think it's just a giant ash tree.
00:18:40
Speaker
Maybe. i yeah My problem is that I never remember like details of books, which is completely useless. You're an author. um Doesn't very well then. What happens in your book, Jen? I don't know.
00:18:57
Speaker
so ah That's why you're saying, oh, I don't like to give spoilers. It's not that you don't like to give spoilers, you just can't remember what happened.
00:19:06
Speaker
I asked by a few people, like, why don't you write a little and introduction for the ah in the second book, like a summary of what happened in the first book? And I was like, well, two books came very close to each other. So I think people just have to remember. But secretly, I was like, a contact tomo I if I can give it.
00:19:25
Speaker
You heard it here, folks. Jen doesn't know what she wrote. Wait, I've read a book? Wow. Oh, it's really good. That's nice, because then you can read it like a reader. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, you're like, oh, my God, I'm so clever. Look at She really ties together the Slavic folklore. To be fair though, when I've been reading your books, I'm like, wow. And then I'm like, this is Jen. Jen wrote this. I know Jen. What? That's that. mad. She was so good at what she did. Oh, Jen's brilliant at everything. But back to the trees. Yeah, so the Shadow of the Gods highly recommend, can't remember, what about the guys in there. Same with the, I don't know if you've read The Witch's Heart by Genevieve Gorinchek.
00:20:14
Speaker
No. It seems like another nose-retarding. It's about the witch Angra Boda, who is like... I've got it. Oh, have you? Yeah. It's really, really good. It's so good. And again, I think that World Tree plays a part in the plot because it's a really Norse-inspired plot, but I honestly can't remember what exactly happens there.
00:20:34
Speaker
But it kind of follows the story of Agrippo there, doesn't it? I think. Yeah, it does. It doesn't. Like, she births our friend, the is serpent whose name I can't remember just now. This is really interesting.
00:20:48
Speaker
young my ball go why can i say it
00:21:07
Speaker
I just put my Geordie accent on and I think it does the job. It's nothin'. Yeah. You're Mungunda? Like, there you go. That sounds like you're insulting someone. Hey, you're Mungunda! I mean, fair enough, we see Duolam, and that is a big insult. ah Yeah, here you go. If someone calls you Duolam and you're in Newcastle, it's not a good thing. ah But yeah, yeah you're Manganda, they also have Hel, the goddess of Helheim. Oh, yeah. And there's another baby. am Oh, my God.
00:21:43
Speaker
It's not Salif in there because that's Loki when he's a mare but yeah they have three kind of hellish children. They have three like monster children yeah. There's also I was thinking with the great trees there's actually a book called by T. Baron the great tree of Avalon which is like one of the classic kind of fantasy series and that's set in that actually yeah yeah set in Avalon you know the mythical kind of plain layer or goes off to. One of the many places he goes off to. I think he dies and goes there and he's meant to come back some days like Jesus. And then that explores like the magical great tree that connects all the realms and supports like the balance of life and each branching route kind of houses different realms so it's very similar to like the world tree in Norse. That's like the world tree right yeah yeah yeah oh maybe inspired by what might uh think this kind of thing. I think it is. And you get quite a lot of them in different mythology as well. And a quick one to mention as well, obviously, is the Wheel of Time. I was about to say, I've just started reading Wheel of Time and then put it away because I got overwhelmed by the size of the book. The series is huge. They mention the Avand... I can't even remember what it's called. Avandisora. Avandisora, that's the one. The legendary tree. The legendary tree, indeed.
00:23:02
Speaker
so Yeah, which is sort of soothing, right? Like sort of renewal and being like, yes, I feel better again and that kind of thing, right? Yeah. It's sort of vibe I'm getting. Yeah. And there's like, it's like a chakra, chakra tree, which is like the last surviving tree of its kind. So it's kind of similar. You've got this sort of same sort of vein as like Tolkien in that aspect. Like there's only these certain trees and different ones left. Yeah. There's different ones left and stuff there too. I didn't really know that many books with like world trees because I knew the only one I could think of was, has anyone read The Magic Faraway Tree by Enid Blyton? No, I haven't. Oh, it's like one of the best. I had them. It's a whole series because she is, of course, the author who wrote like Famous Five and all of that kind of stuff, which if you kind of grew up in the UK and were into that kind of stuff, it was like the classic, you know, young kids go off on an adventure and basically save the world.
00:23:54
Speaker
And so you had the magic faraway tree was this tree where every time you went up to the top of the tree, it was a different world at the top of the tree. So the kids would like climb the tree and go on all these adventures. And there was a little person that lived in the tree, I think. And so he would be there like guide ah to the trees. And yeah, so it's called the magic faraway tree. yeah is very cute And that it's always worlds. They always these yeah these trees seem to connect worlds. yeah So, but it was says that one. But yeah, I have, I've read like a lot of ones where there's been trees in terms of people who have been able to commune with trees or like to to kind of have magic that's associated with plants. So like the first one I thought of was by Tamora Pierce, who again was one of my favourite authors when I was fantasy authors when I was younger. And she wrote
00:24:41
Speaker
a couple of different quartets called the Circle of Magic, Circle Opens, and the Circle Reforged, which were basically about these four mages, and each of the mages has different powers, and one of them, Briar, has like plant magic. So he can basically kind of talk with plants and make plants do stuff and all of this kind of thing. and Yeah. So, and which is kind of similar to, I've been recently reading, can't spell trees without tea and the pirate's life for tea, which is my wreck-a-thorn, which are sort of series. It's a nice cozy fantasy series. And that's similar. There's like an elemental mage in there. So she can make parts grow well. Yeah. They're really good. I would recommend they're good fun. But, uh, yeah. So, I mean, I know those ones, but those aren't really like about a tree. They're about people who can like commune with trees, but I guess we're looking for a specific tree.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah, a so a specific fantasy tree that can replace our missing tree. I feel like that's kind of like more old-fashioned fantasy, like the sort of like token and we have time fantasy that comes with the mythology tends to have more like world tree sort of symbolism or like ones that are inspired by Norse mythology specifically.
00:25:49
Speaker
Well, I guess it probably also comes from that sort of hate of industrialization, right? Like the sort of, we want to go back to our roots. haha literally Because it's like the tree that sustains us and its nature sustains us. So it's sort of, I don't know, which would make sense then with the sort of classic fantasy, because that's when it was all starting, like a around industrialization and stuff. So it Yeah and you had the kind of rise of pastoralism and trying to find those kind of walkways again and the paths and nature and folklore and stuff and I mean it does connect greatly with mythology and I was looking into it a little bit about the world trees and what because we obviously we know Yagrassil I think everyone knows that the world tree is like
00:26:28
Speaker
I can't say it because I know it.
00:26:32
Speaker
just and But that's like a classic you know the classic Norse mythology and you know we see that in video games now there's been like Assassin's Creed and things like that that have come out recently and I think people are much more aware of even like Norse mythology just because of like the Vikings TV show and stuff.
00:26:50
Speaker
But then actually that there's world trees and other mythologies too. So I have like a huge list. I think it's nearly every mythology has a world tree in it. Which again makes sense because it's that idea of it's the tree that you get your life from, you know, I mean, I can see how that would happen. Like if you would need something that would be representative and symbolic of like the start of light or, you know, the the development of life and like the world, a tree is not a bad project, it's not.
00:27:16
Speaker
Yeah, because you mean you have the tree of life, which is Christianity is Judaism, it's also Persian myth mythology. And they're kind of the, well, especially in the Persian mythology, that's Gancorina, which it provides like an elixir of mortality central to it this huge battle between good and evil. And Christianity and Judaism, it's basically represents eternal life, like trees last longer than humans. So they're we're always going to think that like these great,
00:27:44
Speaker
beings you know yeah and that kind of hold our cosmos but then you've also got stuff like the cebia tree which is my and mythology and that connects the heavens the earth and the underworld because they do they reach up to the sky and then they grow in the soil and where's the underworld iss usually below us isn't it so But you have the Bayan tree as well, which is Southeast Asian and Polynesian and that's sacred and that symbolizes you know shelter and fertility and divine connection again. And then I thought about Celtic mythology generally, oak trees are seen as representing kind of with wisdom and strength and again, cosmic connection. So it just depends what tree you're around, but they seem to have these these same so of themes coming through that they're sacred.
00:28:27
Speaker
that they interconnected in some way and that they can transport us through their branches and things to different worlds and and represent that kind of strength forever. So it's really interesting. Which I guess because if you think about it now like we have you know planes and we can go up high easily and all this kind of stuff but I guess originally, it would have been, you know, climbing up a high tree or climbing up a mountain or, you know, something like that. And then seeing that view and seeing that, you know, it almost is like you're transported to another world in a way.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, it's reaching up and in reaching down at the same time, you know, it's kind of it's is connecting two different worlds entirely.
Debate: The Ideal World Tree Species
00:29:07
Speaker
So you can see why people would look at them and go, wow. And also, that's like your great great grandmother would have seen the same tree that you've seen. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe your great, great, great, greatat great, great, great, great, great grandmother planted that tree. Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah. So I I'm curious, if you guys had to pick a tree to be your like world tree, like you would build a fantasy world and it would be based around a tree, what species of tree would it be?
00:29:37
Speaker
I think you know the answer for my tree. It would be the ash tree, obviously. but It's also the symbol of my candles. because the ice tree yeah What about you, Jen? I don't know. I feel like I need to go oak just because it feels like really sturdy. I quite like my world tree to be quite impressive and tone sturdy. Although I do like ash.
00:30:07
Speaker
Oh, thank you very much. I like you too. Oh, I'm such a bad. But yeah, I know. I think, well, actually, it also symbolizes, and like, it burns really quickly, which is not great for a tree. But you know, it's meant to symbolize. You can make really nice balls out of ash.
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, you can. It's quite sturdy, but flexible as well. And it burns for a really long time as well. Wasn't it those? Those were made of ash as well. That's what Jen just said. Oh, I thought you said bowls. Sorry. Cut that. Now I'm leaving it. I can get in here. That's fine. The experimental oncologist here.
00:30:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's very springy. for yeah keep If you could see me now, I'm actually doing like a bow, like as if I'm doing a bow and arrow. Excellent fall, Bash. Thank you. Thank you very much. I think my one would have to be a fig, fig tree, like a good old fig. Because they're just so, the roots are so cool. Like the big, like tall, thick roots that you get and stuff like that come out. They're basically like little walls and then yeah, they're really solid and they're all twisty and you get delicious fruit from them. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually quite clever. Because the one we went for, kids don't give you anything useful to make. I'm thinking forward.
00:31:31
Speaker
She's like, if I'm stuck in a lying island... I'm stuck in a tree. I want a big spot. I want there to be food on there. I don't want to have to eat ash tree, ash leaves. No, excuse you. Nothing wrong with my ash tree leaves. Oh no, the committee is back. Okay, Ash, you know what? Get up. We can't keep hiding. Let's just go and chat to them.
00:31:54
Speaker
No, I think I prefer to hide. No, come on. I'm sorry about this, Jen. We're going to have to cut short this episode of Am I Trial? But don't worry, we'll be continuing the next episode with part two. In the meantime, as always, if anyone has any suggestions for future episodes, maybe you are a specialist in a particular archaeological method or theory or time period or object and you think it would be really fun to explore it through fantasy. Or maybe there's something in a book that you want to find out more about from an archaeological perspective. Do get in contact via email or social media.
Conclusion and Credits
00:32:24
Speaker
All contact info for us and for Jen, as well as booklists and the references to other points that we've talked about today, can be found in the show notes.
00:32:36
Speaker
The Archaeology Podcast Network is 10 years old this year. Our executive producer is Ashley Airy, our social media coordinator is Matilda Seabreck, and our chief editor is Rachel Rodin. The Archaeology Podcast Network was co-founded by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle in 2014 and is part of Culturo Media and DigTech LLC. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.