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The Little Lobster of Atlantis (part 1) - Ep 35
92 Plays12 days ago
This episode, Ash and Tilly have been given a quest by Dr Otalp to write a project proposal for the underwater landscape of Sitnalta, which used to be a land bridge connecting the ancient civilisation of Atlantis with the main continent. To help them write the proposal, they’ve enlisted the help of archaeologist, curator, editor, and all-round superwoman Dr Sasja Van der Vaart-Verschoof. Together, they will tackle those burning questions: What other underwater landscapes have there been? How important is a PhD to a future in freelance archaeological work? And what is the link between a gnome and a helicopter? Tune in to find out!
Books Mentioned
- Deep Waters Series (Emma Hamm)
- The Little Mermaid (Disney)
- The Mermaid (Jan Brett)
- To Kill a Kingdom (Alexandra Christo)
- Crescent City Series (Sarah J Maas)
- Jingo (Terry Pratchett)
- Lord of the Rings (J.R.R.Tolkien)
- Beren and Lúthien (J.R.R.Tolkien)
Links
- Sasja's Website
- The Legend of Atlantis
- Psuedoarchaeology Podcast episode on Atlantis
- You're Dead to Me Podcast episode on Atlantis
- Bronze age exhibition
Contact
- Email: andmytrowel@gmail.com
- Instagram: @and.my.trowel
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode, go to: https://www.archpodnet.com/trowel/35
ArchPodNet
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- Tee Public Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/archaeology-podcast-network?ref_id=5724
Affiliates
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Transcript
Introduction to 'And My Trowel' Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You have my sword. And you have my bow. And my trowel. Hello, you're listening to episode 35 of And My Trowel, where we look at the fantastic side of archaeology and the archaeological side of
The Legend of Atlantis
00:00:18
Speaker
fantasy. I'm Tilly. And I'm Ash. And today, we've been given a very interesting quest. Tell me more. So are you familiar with Atlantis?
00:00:29
Speaker
Uh, you mean that massive civilisation that sank beneath the waves and now has created an amazing basis for even a bigger mermaid civilisation?
Dr. Othalp's Sittnalta Theory
00:00:37
Speaker
Yes, I'm quite familiar. Yes, that's the one, that's the one. But maybe you're less familiar with Sittnalta.
00:00:45
Speaker
Sittnalta? That sounds vaguely familiar. You might recognise it from the name of a paper that was published last year by Dr Othalp.
00:00:56
Speaker
Oh yeah, oh yeah. and That was the study that proposed that there was actually an ancient landscape, even older, right, than Atlantis, that used to connect Atlantis with the rest of the continent. But then that sank, what, 10,000 years ago beneath the waves? Yeah, exactly. So Dr. Ottup actually contacted me this week, which was really exciting, and he's putting together a research team to further investigate his claim, and he would like us to help out with the project proposal.
Research Proposal on Underwater Landscapes
00:01:21
Speaker
Okay. That's amazing. Very exciting indeed. I can't wait to get that on our CV. Exactly. yeah So we're writing a proposal for the project that would investigate an ancient underwater landscape. Exactly. yeah Well, okay. So I know we usually start with a literature review, but actually what would make this really interesting this time is to see other similar projects that have been undertaken.
00:01:48
Speaker
true you know So maybe you learn from our peers and colleagues to see what the best way to develop our research methods would be.
Meet Dr. Sessia van der Weidferschauf
00:01:55
Speaker
Well, it's funny you should mention that, Ash, because I'd like you to meet Dr. Sessia van der Weidferschauf. I think every time I say it, I say it differently. But hey, otherwise known as the Overdressed Archaeologist who is an archaeologist, curator, editor, and so many more things that I don't have the time to list here because it would be a podcast episode all in itself. But most of all, she's been very heavily involved in the Doggerland Project. Oh my goodness. Hello. Thank you so much for joining us. Hello. Thank you very much for having me.
00:02:27
Speaker
OK, so I'm definitely very interested to hear more about Doggerland.
Dr. Sessia's Career Journey
00:02:31
Speaker
I thought you would be. Yeah, I am. But first, we want to get to know you. So what is your archaeological specialism and how did you get into it?
00:02:41
Speaker
So my archaeological specialism is actually on primarily the Middle Ages in Northwestern Europe. So I wrote my PhD on a series of really, really rich and fantastical Iron Age elite burials with o five yeah so it's all these guys who were buried with fabulous swords and horse tack for wagons and that were completely decorated with bronze and just sort of amazing.
00:03:09
Speaker
Sounds very cool. So that was my PhD, and I've sort of, yeah, broadened my interest into lots of different things. And one of the things I indeed work on now also is Cumberland. But and so, I mean, you mentioned you did that for your for your PhD research. But since then, and yeah, I kind of alluded to it in your introduction, you you're a woman of many talents, many different areas, many different tasks. So what kinds of other things have you been working on since you graduated with a degree um in archaeology?
00:03:39
Speaker
Okay, so since I finished my PhD in 2017, and after that, I started working as a freelancer, just to sort of initially it started just a way to make ends meet until I thought I was going to do a postdoc, but that never really materialized into anything.
00:03:55
Speaker
Which actually worked out really well because it turned out I loved being a freelancer because you get to do really diverse things and use all the skills you have available. So I use the fact that I'm a native speaker, English and Dutch, because I have an American mom and had a Dutch dad, she do a lot of do editing and translating, which people need all the time.
00:04:15
Speaker
I did a lot of graphic design work for Sidestone Press, where they taught me how to make books, and then I used my social media skills to help them with their marketing strategy. All the skills and interests I had wielded for archaeology and basically affording the bills. Which is useful. Which is very useful, yes, we like this.
00:04:41
Speaker
And then I also have a background in museum work, starting during my degree with some internships. And so in the last couple of years, I've been curator of archeology at the Delance Museum, as well as assistant curator of prehistory at the National Museum of Antiquities um ah for a couple of years. So I also do a lot of ah exhibition work and design. So it's just it's just, it's very diverse. It's true. I forget half the things I do.
00:05:11
Speaker
I mean, I wasn't joking. i so Honestly, I started writing the list and was like, I don't have time for this. I'm just going to put some bullet points and we'll get to this later. yeah um Honestly, so one of my contracts at the museum ended about a month ago. So I had to update my resume.
00:05:26
Speaker
And even I lost track of what I was doing. We call that transferable skills. Exactly. And I have a slightly random question. because So you did repeat a PhD, as you mentioned, in these elite burials, which by the way, if anyone wants to hear more about that, there's another show on the APN. Stop plugging your own time travel. It's because I keep stealing the guests from all my different shows and just like using them all the time.
00:05:53
Speaker
So anyway, Sasha talks all about her PhD research in that. So if you're interested in hearing more, do come along and hear about that. It's a very good episode. It's a fun one. It's a good fun one. But because, so you did your PhD, but would you say, because like you say, you did the PhD with a view to sort of continuing in academia and continuing that to climb that ladder, which indeed for that, you need a PhD, right? Like to sort of start and go, but would you say you needed to have done a PhD in order to have gotten a lot of the jobs that you get now? Like, would you say it's something that has been very beneficial to your future, the freelancing work that you're doing.
00:06:26
Speaker
I would say it might not be required, but it certainly helped primarily because the pre-HD research had me traveling to a lot of different museums and a lot of different depots and working with scholars from different universities, both in the Netherlands and abroad. So my network got really big. So that leads to a lot of people going, oh, I wish I had somebody to translate this book for me. And then me being around going, hello, I can do that for you. So there's that. And because I specialize, I do pretty much all kinds of archaeological translating, but I specialize in particularly in academic archaeological texts. And the fact that I have a doctorate sort of boosts the confidence of the clients that, for example, I recently helped someone with their grants application, sort of rewriting it and correcting it.
00:07:19
Speaker
And the fact that I have a doctorate and experience writing grant proposals and getting grants means they feel more confident that I know what I'm talking about. right fair enough And the same for like the curator jobs, having a doctorate is not required, but it certainly helps.
00:07:36
Speaker
yeah cool now because I've had a lot of people ask me, like is it worth doing a PhD? And so I'm always curious to hear what other people who are not in academia but have done a PhD think about that. like well Even aside from what it means for your future, I think doing my doctorate was both the hardest and the funnest thing one of the funnest things I've ever done.
Value of a PhD in Archaeology
00:07:54
Speaker
because you just get You get to go nuts on something you're really, really interested in for a year. Not to minimize how hard and stressful it is, but I really enjoyed doing my doctorate.
00:08:07
Speaker
So you've mentioned you do, you know, translations and things like that too, but what is your and most exciting job? The one that you find that you enjoy the most out of all the jobs you do? Probably being a curator. I'm really, um I love, first of all, just the materiality of artifacts. I love, yeah. You're in the right place.
00:08:31
Speaker
ah reason we're friends. on things I love sort of the the luxury of having the key to the depot and just going to, you know, getting to go inside and then ogle all the swords and study all the things. I love that. And I really, really enjoy sort of the challenge of connecting archaeological science to the public. So there's a lot of great scientists in archaeology, not all of them are very good, just have the same level of ability when it comes to translating that to the general public. Oh, yeah, it's definitely a skill. lot Yeah. And I really enjoy that, that a lot. So and exhibitions, making exhibition exhibitions is just so cool. I mean, we just opened one on the Bronze Age. I've seen that. Yeah, so cool. And, you know, you can just like, I walked around when I was just before it opened going, I touched that I touched that. I love that. And it's like bragging rights to my archaeology friends. Like I touched that golden necklace over there. Aren't you jealous? And it's just amazing. I love it. That's fantastic. I love that. So there is something nice about having the the key, you know, yeah to all of it. And you're like, it's mine really. It's my treasure. Yeah. Plus every time
00:09:49
Speaker
and even with it, I'm not a field archaeologist, for example, but even within the depots, I end up making discoveries, things that just have sort of been forgotten or not recognized in the time that we bought it as what it was. So every time I go through the collections, I find quote unquote, new things, new insights, new materials. So there's also a lot of that sort of treasure hunter.
00:10:14
Speaker
aspects to it. So they do exist in archaeology, but they do exist in a very controlled environment. Exactly. It's because someone's bought something at one point or brought something in and then there's not enough records and then you're like, what is this? Wait, who did that belong to? Why is that labelled here? And you're like, yeah, we'll just put it in the box, it's fine. I'll just put it in that box for 50 years and you're like, what? Well, I mean, I remember the National Museum of Antiquities has been around for 200 years.
00:10:40
Speaker
Yeah, so a lot of things that were bought or brought into the collection, you know, over 100 years ago, archaeology wasn't that advanced yet. So they just log it as broad the artifact, probably freeze board. And now you look at it and and you're like, Oh, actually, that is a key component of a middle Irish chariot. Yeah.
00:11:01
Speaker
yeah Also, you have the other way. I just remember at some point during my my beauty and I was looking at museum collections and I was looking up alls to do microwave analysis on them. And so I had asked the curator, the lovely lady working at the Cambridge Museum of Anthropology and Archaeology, if she could pull up like all of the objects that had been labeled as all so that I could have a look at them and analyze them and like Hardly any of them, I would say, were an actual all. like They were basically just pointing things and then someone obviously looked at them in the 1950s and being like, yeah, that's an all, that's fine. I jumped into the box and it was like... ru I do always wonder, as a field archaeologist, right that if we get something wrong on that bag on the site, does that just continue on over and over and over again? I don't think so. I don't know, but Well, maybe, but like also at like our company, I'm involved with like the fines office, you know, ah cataloging and everything. And I mean, even me, I'll be looking at it in like one stage of the process, you know, and I'll be like, I think that might be this, but maybe it's this. ah I'll just leave it as this for now. And I'm going to have to look at it again in like a month when it's thing and then it'll be fresh in my mind and it's fine. Maybe I'll think of something else then. like that That's a future of me problem. To be fair, I've had a few bags in PostEx where you' it's like, this is a pottery shard decorated and I'm like, what? And then you open it and it just crumbles and you're like, that was mud. That was a footprint. That's what that was.
00:12:29
Speaker
um yeah they deal well So we've established you are a woman of many talents, many talents, many pies and many fingers. But one important question that we have for you for this particular podcast, do you enjoy reading? And more specifically, do you enjoy reading fantasy?
00:12:48
Speaker
I do enjoy reading and I wouldn't say I'm a well-versed fantasy reader, but I do have
The Comfort of Rereading Books
00:12:55
Speaker
a number of theories and books that in the genre that I love. Okay. That's, that's good. That's fine. That's okay. And that will change because now you'll be on this podcast and then you'll love fantasy. And then all the books we recommend. you'll become official Yeah. they
00:13:10
Speaker
And true to some extent, except that I, personally struggle to read new books for fun. my fire i I generally prefer to either read really long series where you've gotten to know the characters in one book and then can just sort of stay with them or rereading books a lot. this Is that like a comfort thing rereading? Yeah it is. yeah is it so It's like, personally, when I'm meeting new people, you know, it takes energy and effort to get to know someone. And then, you know, meeting up with friends that you've known for years is much less effort, mentally and emotionally. And I, of course, read and write a ton for my work. I don't want to have to think too hard when I'm reading for fun and leisure. So I'm a big book re-reader.
00:14:02
Speaker
To be fair, I really and like re-reading books as well. I quite often did that. It's only actually because of the Archaeo Book Club, but which Ash and I are also a part of, that has sort of forced me to read new books because and that's almost why one of the other reasons I started it yeah was just to give myself accountability to like trying and reading books behind the same. I definitely love, especially audiobooks. I definitely re-listen to a lot of audiobooks.
00:14:23
Speaker
Oh, that's interesting. See, I chase dopamine, so I need new things all the time. Constant. Like I will be downloading books upon books and I'll be like, right, this one is what I feel right now. I will read this. Follow the dopamine trail.
00:14:39
Speaker
So yeah, I have so many books on my TBR and when I exactly, when you read it, then
Fantasy Book Series Discussion
00:14:43
Speaker
you're like, Oh yeah, this is great. Oh my God. This is amazing. Why didn't I start this earlier? Yeah. But that, I understand what you mean. thatha It's that first push to be like, it's like when you're going out and you're like, Oh, I know I'm going to have fun when I'm there. But like now I have to like get dressed and have a shower and like leave the house and oh, like it's that whole thing. So yeah. Plus, my leisure read. I mean, when I'm on holiday, I like to read new things because I actually sit and read as an activity. yeah Most days it's just like before you fall asleep, a little reading to relax and then it's just too much effort to usually to read a new book. so yeah Which actually is probably also why I re listened to audiobooks because I also quite often listen to them before I fall asleep and then I fall asleep and I miss like half an hour.
00:15:24
Speaker
of the book So if it's a new one, then I'm screwed, because I don't know what happened. But if it's one I know, then I can listen in again the next day. And I'm like, oh, yeah, this bit. Yeah, cool. If you're rereading the em Amelia Peabody series, like, or listening to it, how are you listening to it? Because the narrator is so bombastic. like She's like she was so great. Oh, oh my goodness. el yeah no Well, of it there's some audio books that you can't listen to before bed, indeed. It's just a bit too intense. but And Sasha, do you have a favourite fantasy book or a favourite series that you have read that you would go back to maybe as a fantasy book? Oh, let's see if you can, I'm not sure you can call it. Can you call it fantasy, the Diana Gebaldon book? Yes, absolutely.
00:16:07
Speaker
I have read those until they fall apart. Sing me a song. yeah yeah although this i mean The TV series is is or the Netflix series is okay, but they're they're not the book. No, I love rereading the books. Still haven't read that one.
00:16:22
Speaker
Oh my god, oh my god. I know, I know. I want to, but... If you want to save our friendship and keep asking me to be on a random podcast, I really need your help. That's emotional blackmail, possibly. You know, that's fine. So you try and convince everyone to read Terry Pratchett every single episode? I don't know.
00:16:40
Speaker
I'm not saying that it's a bad series. I'm not saying I don't want to read it. I definitely want to read it. It's just there's a lot of other things I want to read too. And they are chunky priorities. There's just so many of them. This is why. I'm worried that I'll start reading it and then I'll just have to buy like 20 more books because I won't. Yeah. I don't know how many are in the series. but Yeah. yeah and My partner, and he is from the Isle of Skye and he has garlic and he read them when he was younger and he actually really liked the garlic translation. So there you go. Very, very impressed with that. Even though they weren't entirely correct, he was impressed with her knowledge of garlic at that point. Oh, nice. There you go. So they're factually correct as well. Time travel also exists. Well, all this talking has made me a little bit thirsty. So I might just pop the cauldron on and make some tea and we will be right back.
00:17:27
Speaker
Thanks for the cup, I tell you. So now that we've got ah Sasha here, maybe we can start with the literature review and pull together our existing knowledge to get an initial idea of what we might be dealing with. So which fantasy books have you guys read or feature underwater landscape slash
Books with Underwater Settings
00:17:47
Speaker
civilizations? Because I have a wreck.
00:17:49
Speaker
Oh yeah, go, go, go. do Start us off. Okay. So mine's actually a romanticy because of course I mean, there's no podcast without me talking about romance. So Emma Hamm does a series and called, well, it starts with the whispers of the deep and then it goes into the song of the abyss. And then there's another one and it's essentially an underwater human civilization, very kind of steampunk esque where they're all welders and they live in this kind of like domed shape.
00:18:18
Speaker
like underground city, and the humans have basically wrecked the the world above, so they have to live under the sea. And there's an opposite tribe of undines, which are basically mermaids, but they're kind of the Irish undines. And so the love stories between humans and mermaids, and merman. How does that work in terms of like,
00:18:44
Speaker
god
00:18:47
Speaker
No, no, no, I'm not talking about large, I'm talking about like breathing, because like people can't breathe in the water. So like, how does that work with the relationship between them? Because surely also a mermaid can't breathe out of water? Or can they? Or they can, they can sit up on rocks and go, part of your world? So yeah, that must be fair.
00:19:03
Speaker
skin That was brilliant. and So the underwater stuff, they actually do, they have air pumps and things like that. So the first book, she's an engineer and a welder. So she has to make sure that like all the locks are sealed, everything's airtight and they're able to kind of, and it's like a military base. It seems like there's like a few different cities underneath the sea and the the humans have encroached on the underwater world and of the Undines.
00:19:30
Speaker
And then they have like little rebreathers almost. And if you've ever worn a rebreather, that's not exactly, it's a sci-fi rebreather because they're absolutely awful rebreathers. Horrible. I would never, ever do that underwater training again.
00:19:47
Speaker
Horrible. When you're circulating your own air. You're like, it's fine. I love being underwater. I'm like, I'm underwater. Do we fail to use one once? And it was for a very short period and it was at a pool, so.
00:20:03
Speaker
Yeah, I did helicopter training, so you had to get in and out of the helicopter. That's just terrifying, that idea. It was horrifying. I think I've been triggered and traumatized by it, even though I wasn't real. Because they basically just crashed the helicopter into the water, right? You have to get out. You have to get out, yeah. No, no. That's like the horror film waiting to happen. It was awful. And I also was really...
00:20:23
Speaker
so you get i po the helicopter out again going we out seriously so They were like, I told the guy at the beginning, like, I'm quite i am claustrophobic. I do not like to speak in like small spaces. And he was like, you'll be fine. And he just told us that basically.
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah, and the instructor had just told us and basically that three out of four of you will die in this scenario, so don't worry about it. But I was like, okay, that's not comforting at all. How is that supposed to be a, it'll be fine? Those two sentences don't go together. It'll be fine. Three out of four of you will die. yeah So there was like four archaeologists, the other three of my colleagues were extremely brave. I was not. I cried and had a panic attack. While everyone else was a marine or an oil rig worker, so they had done it like several times beforehand. and But essentially, yeah, I got demoted because I can swim, but because I floated to the top and got stuck because I didn't react He was like, I'm going to give you the red hat and that means you're not allowed to swim in the pool. I have to drag you around. So I was just being dragged around by this really, but like, built man. I think I see what happened here. Oh no, I'm so bad at this. Oh, not the red hat.
00:21:46
Speaker
I feel like you're undervaluing my trauma right now. You just said a built man dragged you around in a pool. I was about to say, the emphasis was not on the helping space. But I did look like a gnome. I looked like a gnome. I had a horrible... You better be dying in an underwater scenario. You want to look like a gnome. Yeah, and also the suits didn't fit women. This is a total tangent, but they didn't fit women, so they meant they carried more air. So immediately you would just rise to the top if you didn't get out of the helicopter.
00:22:15
Speaker
Needless to say, it was a very traumatising experience, and anyway, the book. Okay, but so maybe maybe we need to, lose we'll come back to this later, but like maybe we need to work out a system which doesn't require actual underwater archaeology like diving in order to do this project, so we'll come back to that afterwards. Yeah, yeah. yeah But they are able to breathe once in the book. They kind of accept the bond with the undine as well. So it's all magical in sci-fi. That reminds me a little bit of one which I haven't actually read, but it was a book for another book club I'm in um called To Kill a Kingdom.
00:22:52
Speaker
by Alexandra Christo and it's basically about sirens like the siren princess and they have to get the heart of the prince and like basically kill him in order to so it's a bit dark and that's sort of how they can become queen and do all this stuff but like I say I haven't read it so but yeah that was all about the kind of mermaid kingdoms or the siren kingdoms under the water which I feel indeed is most underwater so that's why I'm curious that you mentioned this book that has like an actual human civilization living on the and actually living on the bottom of the seabed. Yeah, the civilisation's quite interesting but it's sort of I wish she'd sort of kind of got into it a bit more and I haven't read the second book so I'm hoping that this one will because the first book it just took the human out of the civilisation and popped her into kind of an isolated
00:23:42
Speaker
story with the Undine. So it would be good to know more about the the civilization, but they do live in domed kind of steampunk-esque. Think of like 1920s.
00:23:54
Speaker
yeah yeah It's kind of like an art nouveau cover and everything like that. So that's what it's meant to look like. Very cool. Random side tangent, I saw a really cool theme today that was talking about the difference between Art Deco and Art Nouveau. and yeah I can't remember now which way round it is, but Art Deco is as if it was designed by elves and one of them is as if it was designed by dwarves.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yep, Art Deco is dwarves, Art Nouveau is elves. Art Nouveau is elves. See the problem? And I was thinking, that's such a great way of doing it, but then of course I can't remember which way round it, so it's not very great way of doing it. Anyway, sorry, that was a really... No, but Sasha's told you now. I know, I know. I've literally just forgotten again. Art Nouveau is elves. You can remember Deco and dwarves. They both start with me. Oh, there
Underwater Civilizations in Fantasy
00:24:35
Speaker
we go. That's great. Oh, fantastic. See, this is why you do what you do, Sasha. Woven and many talents, like I say. Do you know of any books that feature kind of underwater?
00:24:47
Speaker
landscapes or civilizations or anything like that, Sasha? I know some. Obviously, I read my ah eight-year-old daughter, the Little Mermaid book. right oh nice Another one I was thinking of is the Crescent sear what is it called c christmascent City series by Sarah Moss. And I have a talent for reading books, really liking them, and then promptly forgetting everything about them. But in this there's a number of different kinds of magical creatures. Like there's Fay, there's vampires, and there's, I think they actually just call them merpeople. I don't think they have a fancy name, but and they live primarily under the water, both in rivers and oceans. Like there's different tribes of them, I think. And I believe they have to like shift form in order to either breathe underwater or but it look pretty I think they look pretty much human
00:25:44
Speaker
out of the water i think they shift into a ah human-ish shape. More like I love selkies. But selkies turn into seal seals, right? We share the sealskin, yeah. So it's kind of like that. Okay, okay. In the Crescent City series, they're connected to Akatar, aren't they? They're all can interconnected. Vaguely. Yeah.
00:26:07
Speaker
Akatabi. Oh, that's the Court of Thorns and Roses. Yeah. So you have to kind of read that in order to know Crescent City.
Terry Pratchett's 'Jingo' and Real-World Parallels
00:26:15
Speaker
This is what I've heard about the Sarah J Maas ones that like you can't just really dive in anywhere. You have to like actually read all of them. Is that the case? I don't think so. I mean, they are interconnected. Like I think in the in the Crescent series book at some point, I think like in the last book at some point, she does something travels through another world. And if you read the ACOTAR books, you recognize it as being the ACOTAR world. So they're connected, but you can read the Sarah J Maas series independently. Like, I don't think you have to read ACOTAR in order to read Crescent City. But if you have read them all, you sort of recognize the different worlds being connected, in a sense.
00:27:02
Speaker
Speaking of a series that you don't necessarily have to read in order, but if you have, you'll be able to recognize different sessions. Did you lead us into that? i maybe I had nothing to do with Sasha and picking Sarah J Maas. That was fate. um her Well, because, no, but this one actually is a really good reference because in Jingo, Terry Pratchett's disclaimer book, you've got an island called the island of Leschp, which rises from the sea and comes to the surface and then basically causes a war like between
00:27:34
Speaker
two different city-states. Fun little extra side facts. When I was just looking this up, because I was checking to see if there was any you know extra information or anything, so that book and that story, so this island like rising to the surface, is actually based on a real island in our world, or in you know Earth, called Graham Island or Izolofur de Nandia, which is an island near Sicily.
00:27:57
Speaker
And it rises to the surface during volcanic activity and then sinks back below again. And it's happened four times since 300 BC. So the last recorded time was in July 1831. But then by January 1832, it had gone again. so like Wow. It's so cool, right? like So yeah, these you know fantasy is real, these little things. and But anyway.
00:28:17
Speaker
Speaking of fantasy, I think you're forgetting one of the major key players in fantasy. I mean, that's true. Now that you say it. You're thinking it was nominal.
00:28:29
Speaker
Númenor, of
The Myth of Atlantis in Culture
00:28:30
Speaker
course. Númenor. Lord of the Rings. Which, actually, also interestingly enough, when I was looking up stuff about Atlantis, I found a random reference which Tolkien used to refer to Númenor in his letters as Atlantis Númenor. So, like, there's no question that he wasn't using it as an analogy, like, for Númenor, which, yeah, I think... It's interesting how much he revised as well. yeah I'm currently reading Baron and Lucian. Oh, cool.
00:28:56
Speaker
and unreal how much he revises stuff and changes them and that's why they have just several names and like even he doesn't know which is like the whole part of the mythology and like Christopher Tolkien his son that he's like I don't know what dad wanted but I'm gonna call it this like he calls Baron who is a man a gnome but he's not a gnome as we would know it but maybe he just failed the helicopter training and so funny my trauma is a laughful to you
00:29:32
Speaker
You get your comedic timing from me. Right, I got it. I'm gonna go now. Have fun for the rest of the party. Yeah, I'll do that. So no, gnome is a type of elf. So Baron was originally an elf and then he means just like he's very wise. He was like, I'll change this later and then never got around to it. And then he just keeps referring to You're a gnome so funny. My trauma and it is laughable to you. really changes the whole dynamic of the love story. It sounds like one of your loves are, you know, the romantic ones. I've never read the Numen one actually. You never know. Well, actually the name of Numen or following destruction was also Atalante apparently. So, you know, yet again, another, which indeed we haven't talked about the most famous story about an underwater civilization, which is of course the myth of Atlantis, which is a myth.
00:30:23
Speaker
in some world, and it's reality in other worlds, of course. So yes, interestingly enough, Myth of Atlantis, first mentioned by Plato around 360 BC. And it was actually mentioned in his dialogue Timaeus and Cretaeus, where it's referred to as a huge island to the west of the Strait of Gibraltar. So that's basically just off like the western edge of the current Mediterranean. And it existed for about It existed 9,000 years before Plato's time, according to, like, these dialogues. So this is like everyone who's sort of like, yes, Plato's writing about a current city. It's like, no, no, no, he's writing about something that apparently happened 9,000 years before. So it would be like us
00:31:05
Speaker
writing about, I don't know, an early Neolithic, like, settlement or something. So it's not really, like, primary source. It's not exactly primary source. Let's, let's, yeah, that's a good way to put it. So, yes, but anyway, and yeah, most people probably know the tale. It's a great civilization, but then it became morally corrupt. It tried to do too many things. One of them was attacking the city-state of Athens, and so the gods decided to punish them and sunk them beneath the
Episode Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:31:33
Speaker
sea. Which, if anyone, by the way, talking about other shows on the Archaeology Podcast Network, if anyone wants to hear more about Atlantis, there's a really great episode of the pseudo-archaeology podcast that talks all about it, Dr. Andrew Kincala. So do go and check that out. And also, there's a whole episode of You're Dead to Me, which looks at it and looks at the history, but also like the problematic politics that surround the whole Atlantis kind of mythology, like, you know, the racism and all of that kind of stuff. So, yeah. Definitely. the The one thing when Atlantis always pops into my head is obviously the film, Atlantis. The animated film. The animated film. Is it DreamWorks? DreamWorks, yeah. So it always pops into my head. But also, doesn't Lara Croft go to Atlantis?
00:32:14
Speaker
Does she at some point? Oh, I don't know about that one. I'm sure she does. Or there's like, rule that's like the the crest of civilization, the mother culture. Is it like Atlantis in the Lara Croft lore? And then there's like rulers. There's like three rulers of Atlantis, like centuries and centuries ago. I'm sure that's one of the the, yeah, as long as you know, with the Knights Templar, because obviously they were there. Oh yeah. I mean, the Knights Templar go everywhere and then the Illuminati and yeah, all of that stuff.
00:32:41
Speaker
but yeah And yeah, and obviously you also have the Marvel films with Ackerman, who's basically the king of Atlantis, which, speaking of well-built men who can definitely drag me through the water anytime they want, Jason Momoa. I can tell you Gary didn't look like that. Gary from the helicopter training did not look like that.
00:33:03
Speaker
Which may be a good thing because you don't really want to meet Jason Momoa wearing a gnome hat. And also I got choked out by one of my colleagues because we had to get into a raft as well. And she kept pulling on my really big suit. And so I couldn't get into the raft and I was like, why am I slowly suffocating? And it was because of her, she was panicking. She also had a gnome hat. So there you go. Oh dear. Yeah, it was just a great time. were No murders in the boat.
00:33:30
Speaker
The Gnome Murders of Clyde's Back. Sounds like a book that I would read. It sounds great. Cozy fantasy. like With over a romance in it, obviously. yeah yeah It's going to be set on Atlantis. Brilliant. Look at that. Perfect.
00:33:42
Speaker
excellent Telly, do you see, speaking of water, do you see the water flowing up the street? Does that concern you? Oh no. Okay. Uh, maybe we need to do and like a quick sacrifice to make sure that the gods realise that we're not trying to like rebuild Atlantis. We're just trying to like research it. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's a good idea. I'll go and grab the sacrificial roast chicken out of the ice box. Don't worry Sasha, you're off the hook. Okay.
00:34:11
Speaker
Perfect. So, well, in that case, I'm very sorry listeners, we need to cut short this episode of An My Trowel. But don't worry, we will be continuing next episode with part two of our discussion with Sasha. In the meantime, as always, if you have any suggestions for podcast episode ideas, do feel free to get in touch with us. Also, if you want to find out more about anything that we've spoken about in today's episode, you can find all contact information as well as links to further reading in the show notes.
00:34:39
Speaker
The Archaeology Podcast Network is 10 years old this year. Our executive producer is Ashley Airy. Our social media coordinator is Matilda Seabreck and our chief editor is Rachel Rodin. The Archaeology Podcast Network was co-founded by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle in 2014 and is part of CulturoMedia and DigTech LLC. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.