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The Conservation of Gorian Dray (part 1) - Ep 29
268 Plays2 months ago
Ash and Tilly have discovered an old and dilapidated painting in the corner of their office, although arguably the most dilapidated part is the man pictured in it - a Mr Gorian Dray. Could it be a soul-bound object? And if so, how can they possibly go about conserving it? Luckily, they are joined by professional art conservator Jessica van Dam, and together they look at the world of fantasy and back in time through archaeology to see just what they are dealing with!
Books Mentioned
- Prince Caspian films
- Lord of the Rings (J.R.R.Tolkien)
- Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell (Susanna Clarke)
- Harry Potter (J.K.Rowling)
- Witches Abroad (Terry Pratchett)
Links
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode, go to: https://www.archpodnet.com/trowel/29
Contact
- Email: [email protected]
- Instagram: @and.my.trowel
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
Introduction to Episode 29
00:00:04
Speaker
You have my sword. And you have my bow. And my trowel. Hi, you're listening to episode 29 of An My Trowel, where we look at the fantastic side of archaeology and the archaeological side of fantasy. My name's Ash. And I'm Tilly. And today we're sorting out the absolute mess that Tilly has created. Me? What about you? You didn't know it was there either. This place is a state anyway. We have so much junk
The Mysterious Soulbound Painting
00:00:31
Speaker
here. How am I meant to take account of one tiny soulbound painting?
00:00:35
Speaker
Oh, you wanted to be the archivist. No, no, no, no. I said I would do some of the archiving until the wizards sent an apprentice to help us out. Oh, ah okay. Yeah, I see our issue. Oh, why is it always bloody wizards? Honestly, they're never punctual, never on time. No. Okay. Well, hang on. Maybe we should catch up our listeners on our little predicament here.
00:01:00
Speaker
OK, that's a good idea, Tilly. OK, so at the end of our last quest, we stumbled across a painting that neither of us had seen before, but maybe Tilly had. I don't know. Maybe she has. I don't know. On closer inspection, though, it's an oil painting and it's an extremely old, perhaps mummified old man on it. Spindly white hair clinks to his desiccated scalp. His paper skin is peeling away, exposing the ivory of his skull beneath.
00:01:27
Speaker
He seems to be wearing a Victorian outfit, but we can't really tell because it's torn and festering, even though it's a wooden frame. It's extremely dilapidated and crumbling and splintering. And the middle of that frame, though, sits an oxidized bronze plaque with the name carved into it. Tilly, I'm going to need you to roll a perception check. Oh, OK.
00:01:53
Speaker
It's a three. but You failed. Oh no, I can barely see the name. am So dirty. I think though, maybe it says Dorian Gray? Um, no, apparently this one's Gorian Tree. Oh right. Oh, maybe it's his cousin or something.
00:02:15
Speaker
Well, maybe. Well, now we've figured out something else about the painting. Apparently it's cursed as well. Soulbound. Which means that there's a living soul inside of it, taking all the sin and ill deeds from the person bound to it, making it age and wither. Oh jeez, well, what should we do with it? Honestly, I have no idea. But don't worry, I've already called someone in who might. Jess, are you there?
Enter Jess Van Damme: Art Conservation Insights
00:02:40
Speaker
Hi! Oh my god Jess! Hi Jess! It's amazing to have you back. I can't believe it. Vampire teeth and now a cursed painting. Is there anything you can't do?
00:02:52
Speaker
No, she's back. She's back. She's back. She's back like the Terminator ready to solve everything for us. And because you may have remembered Jess Van Damme is a multi-skilled. Okay. So not only is she a forensic archaeologist and anthropologist, she's also an arch conservator. True.
00:03:12
Speaker
So Jess, can you tell us a little bit about what art conservators do? Basically, we fix old things. So whether that be paintings, objects, old clothing, so pretty much anything you find in a museum, probably an art conservator worked on it at some point, hopefully.
00:03:30
Speaker
Interesting. And like when you say we fixing, so our conservator or like your background in specific things, like ah have you, is it art in terms of like paintings? Is it art in terms of like objects? Is it, can it be anything?
00:03:45
Speaker
It can be anything. I'm not trained in painting, so this is a little outside of my purview, but it's all the same, right? That's right. So yeah, so it can be anything. So things that I've worked on are like a Japanese dollhouse, an ancient Egyptian mummy coffin, model ships. Cool. Sorry, I'm just going to stop you there. You just like,
00:04:12
Speaker
pass by going, an ancient Egyptian mummy coffin? Like, when you say an ancient Egyptian mummy coffin, is it like a wooden thing that it's enclosed in? What is that?
00:04:25
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, it was wooden. So it was the the like the case that the mummy like sat in, because usually there's like multiple layers of coffin, so sarcophagi. And so there's a whole bunch of layers, depending on how much money the deceased individual had. But this one was the one that like went directly around the mummy, which was very cool. But it had some old repairs on it that were truly terrible. I'm talking brown, horrible colored paint just covering this thing, covering original decorations, terrible infills. oh It was awful. So that was an exciting. When was that repair from? What time period was that repair? I think the 80s, I think is what we figured out. There was only like typical slides, like old slides. Our Gen Z crowds are not going to know what these are, but we know these are slides.
00:05:19
Speaker
ah We had to sit through slide shows following every single holiday while our parents brought out the projector. Oh yes, exactly. and Oh my God, you had a projector. We had a projector. Oh yeah, we got fancy. Very fancy. We just got really horrible, like, photos back, you know, from the camera guy. Oh yeah, when you had to send it off. I mean... A dad's finger over the lens and, like... And you realise there was a massive smudge on the lens that you didn't actually know about, and so every single picture is ruined. Yeah, butt lens, like, you know, 1995 has just gone forever, without memory.
00:05:53
Speaker
but so When you're conserving, you're not just conserving like the degradation or whatever of an old object. you're also having How often is it that you actually have to conserve ah previous attempts at conservation in comparison to actual degradation? It kind of depends on the object. I've come across a lot that have not been repaired ever, so then you have a fresh slate, which is kind of nice, because then you don't have to curse the conservator that came before you. But then there's so many that have had multiple conservation efforts, and at different times they use different materials. and
00:06:24
Speaker
some were effective and some were not. So it's it's definitely a mixed bag. and And this mummy case, I'm just curious. about this now yeah Like you said, there was like the brown paint all over the thing, all of these repairs, all these horrible stuff. So like, how do you actually go about repairing that? Like, do you just cover it with a different kind of paint? Do you use a different kind of material? Like, what's the what's the process?
00:06:47
Speaker
but Luckily, the brown paint that the conservator used was acrylic and so a pretty standard solvent acetyl took it off without damaging the underlying surface. So that was really convenient. And then the there was cracks in the coffin lid and so this conservator had filled them with like styrofoam and some sort of glue. And so I literally cut it out, like cut out all these fills and then use styrofoam. This is 80s. Plastic, plastic, plastic.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And like, to be fair, there are some plastics that are very useful, and they're very stable, they they don't degrade over time, but you can never be sure with old repairs, whether this is going to hold up or going to do something else to the object. So I went in and used more archival materials and didn't paint over the original decorations and try to integrate the new fills with like appropriate paint, basically. oh hi So is this the type of material that yeah that is your favorite? Yeah, I typically like organic material, I find it a lot more forgiving than say like metals or glass or ceramic, which are very difficult. And I mean, they're just more solid. So they just don't
00:08:17
Speaker
bend and work with you, whereas organic materials like wood or plant material or textiles, they have a lot more give. And so when you're trying to repair or stabilize or increase their longevity, they, they work with you a lot more consistently. That's so interesting. Cause I thought organic would be more difficult. because it so war Yeah. yeah Well, sometimes that means that the like, if you're using an adhesive or a glue, it will adhere better because there's more pores for the adhesive to like go into. Whereas ceramic what's odd about ceramic and glass as well, but when they break, there is a weird
00:09:04
Speaker
tiny bit of deformity that happens when they break. And so they will never line up precisely how it broke. So you're always going to be struggling with trying to arrange this thing back into some sort of shape, but it's never going to fit precisely. What's that thing with the with the gold? Is it Japanese? I think like method of fixing broken cups and stuff with the gold paint. Oh, yeah, what is that called? I'm talking about
00:09:33
Speaker
no Oh, but now who gets to be like, oh, I know what it is. I know what it is. It's Kintsugi. I happen to It's Kintsugi. Just look it up. No, we totally do. We totally do that off the top of our heads. Not Google adults.
00:09:50
Speaker
But yeah, anyway, that just reminds me of that, because yeah, I guess then that's the whole point is that you know it's been conserved. So I mean, when you're when you are conserving something, are you trying to basically make it look as much as possible, like
Conservation Philosophy: Obvious or Seamless?
00:10:02
Speaker
the original? Or are you trying to sort of, I don't know, like, update, not update it or upgrade it? But do you know what I mean? Like, also, it's like when people do buildings and restore buildings, and they try to almost show that it's a restoration. So it's clear that it is a restoration. Is that the point with conservation? Or is the point to make it look like there hasn't been any conservation work?
00:10:20
Speaker
It's weirdly dependent on who you're working for, what the object is, what the object's being used for. There's been a number of curators that I've worked for that want the repairs to be like fully integrated. so From like about six inches, you can see that it was altered in some way, but from six feet, you can't. and so that's generally the rule of thumb in the US, at least in museums, at least the museums I've worked for. This might not be the case in like, I don't know, California, but in the UK, I've met a lot of conservators who like to really highlight that things have been altered or repaired. And I know that there's some conservators who like to repair chairs with like,
00:11:00
Speaker
like if they're missing a leg they'll replace it with like a clear like fiberglass leg that's the same shape as the others but it's just clearly a different it's just new actually i've seen i've seen stuff like that yeah yeah so i mean it it really depends on the object and what what they want. I don't know. I felt um follow what people want rather than what I think they should be doing, typically. But do you also then in the background just be like, oh, that's an interesting choice. See, see I would have maybe done it this way. Like try to subconsciously.
00:11:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I there's one curator specifically that I worked for, who we were working on this ship's figurehead that had layers and layers and layers of paint, most of it lead. Lovely. Oh, and the original paint colors we had like cross sections of and so we knew what they were at the time, like one specific iteration of this woman with a dress and what color hair she had and stuff like that.
00:12:02
Speaker
But there wasn't enough original paint left to go down that far. And this thing had been worked on for 11 years. It was going out on display in like nine months. So we did not have time to like just cut off all of this paint. So me and my colleague decided rather than get to this original layer that the curator wanted, we would just paint her to look like the original layer that he wanted. And we kind of had to lie a little bit. And hopefully he'll never listen to this. I was about to say, if you're listening to this podcast, we're totally talking about a different figure. Yeah, this is yeah not the same. We're done many. No, no. Although this is Jessica. Damn. Yeah, yeah.
00:12:48
Speaker
Definitely not Claude. Claude Van Damme did that, I think, didn't he? But what was funny is so like he thought that we had gone down to this original layer. He came down to the lab and saw like all this like new paint and like how lovely it looked. And he was like, oh, this is exactly what I wanted. You did guys did such a great job. I'm so impressed that you got down that far. And we're like, yes, we absolutely did. This is not new paint. It hides paint palette behind back. What do you mean you're new paint? Would he not smell the paint?
00:13:18
Speaker
ah I mean, like I mean, it's just acrylic, so it's not, it doesn't smell particularly. It doesn't smell too bad. And you know, and curators are in their own little world. They're a special breed. Okay.
Ethical Considerations in Conservation
00:13:30
Speaker
And I suppose as well, so when you're talking about the mummy, especially, you're working with human remains, right? So how, how do you give them back? Can you get them back to that state? Why do you do it to get it back to that original?
00:13:47
Speaker
casket or sarcophagus or sarcophagi. Why do that? so Well, with the coffin specifically, I mean, this thing was covered in so much, I mean, truly the worst shade of brown I've ever seen, paint. Love it brown. Actually, not not far off. but But like in like, it covered her like the on the coffin, there was like a face, right? Because they're generally humanoid sort of shaped. And you couldn't see the eyes because they were covered in this brown paint. So that felt like that wasn't what the deceased would have wanted. Because, you know, the the the image that is presented on their coffins and on all of their funerary equipment is
00:14:33
Speaker
to you know lead them into the afterlife with this like golden image you know to make them attractive and pretty. and wealthy and godlike. So the fact that you couldn't see any of that meant that this deceased individual wasn't attaining that afterlife that they had planned for. So returning it back to not quite original, like you can still tell that it has gone through time and space because obviously it was in a college in Pennsylvania, not in Egypt. So not 2000 years ago.
00:15:04
Speaker
So, bringing it back to sort of what they would have wanted it to be, but also having gone through time just felt more respectful and more, you know, aligning with their intentions. And it's the same thing with working with human remains. I always think about what would the deceased have wanted from me to do. So, sometimes it's not do anything. And then there's other times where it's like, oh, I could fix this and make it nicer. And then that's maybe what they would have wanted. And then sometimes you're dealing with still living cultures. We come up a lot with this in the United States with Native Americans and indigenous Alaskans where we don't want to make any changes to their art unless they have told us to. So it's a ah collaborative process. So yeah, it kind of just depends.
00:15:57
Speaker
Well, it sounds like you'll definitely be able to help us with this quest then.
Dorian Gray and Gothic Themes in Art
00:16:02
Speaker
hey Hopefully. See, Ash, we'll get this mess sorted in no time at all. And maybe we might be able to find the owner of this cursed painting as well? Yeah, I mean, how did we even pick up a cursed painting like that? No idea. Oh, wait, hang on. I think the postie's at the door. I might have my order from the Amazons. We'll be right back.
00:16:26
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back. Did you get your delivery from the Amazons, Jess? I did. It was a bit more bloodier than I thought it would be, but hey, that's okay. You know, I support female-owned businesses. True, very true, very true. And, you know, during the break, when you were away at the door, I started to think we really should ah start this quest with the tale of Dorian Gray. You mean orrianre Dorian Dorian, Shmorian, fine, whatever. You tell us his tale then.
00:16:54
Speaker
OK, so the portrait of Dorian Gray. Do you mean Dorian Gray? Well, this one we're talking about is cousin first, because I'm assuming Dorian came before Gory.
00:17:05
Speaker
You know, he's the original. But it's a classic tale of a gothic tale, actually, of beauty, hedonism, and sensual Victorian reality, written by Irish author Oscar Wilde in 1890. So it tells the story of a young man named Dorian Gray, who gets his portrait painted by the enigmatic painter called Basil Howard, which I never think is a very enigmatic name. bail Basil.
00:17:32
Speaker
Makes me think of Basil Brown. I think of Basil Brown, like the archaeologist from Sunhoo. You're just too much of an archaeologist to do. Yes, I'm too frivolous. But Basil is, she's very frivolous. But Basil is infatuated by Dorian's beauty. And Dorian, after getting his portrait, realises that his beauty will fade one day. So he tells of his desire to sell his soul in order for the painting to fade rather than himself.
00:18:01
Speaker
hu So his wish is granted and Dorian embarks on a life of a libertine. ah All the while his portrait records every wrinkle and every perceived sin he rots. So basically, the portrait is a reflection of Dorian's misdeeds and a curse upon his very soul. Ooh, spooky. Excellent. So it's a cursed object. Excellent. That's fine. We're fine with objects, right?
00:18:26
Speaker
Yes, we are. that That's good. But it's a cursed object with a living soul trapped inside. Oh, and how do we go about conserving a living object? Jess, any ideas? Oh, I certainly have my work cut out for me.
00:18:42
Speaker
It's something new to add to your CV. Yeah, it's like mummy, Dorian Gray, cursed subject. Yeah, exactly. yeah Well, okay, we're going to be in the archives, so maybe we'll start there. at What other like cursed or soulbound objects could we find in the fantastical or the archaeological record? Well, I can think of one. Yes. The one ring.
00:19:08
Speaker
It to be, right? Of course. Yeah, it's like the ultimate first object. In a way, I mean, it embodies and amplifies corruption of Sauron. And also, if you've watched the Rings of Power, why did they make him hot? It's so conflicting. I just can't deal with it. Like that hair, oh God. like it shouldn the show I know he has to be beautiful as the gift, Lord of Gifts, but like, come on.
00:19:39
Speaker
Don't do that to me. Are you saying you would also have made the rings for him? Oh my god, absolutely. when glad When he was like, be my queen, Gladriel, I'd be like, absolutely, not a problem. Let's just get rid of all the middle earth. No, that's fine. Wouldn't mind. Okay, so the one ring. I grew up on Labyrinth and David Bowie, like, it's the same.
00:20:00
Speaker
But it's the one ring, yes. So it doesn't really physically change an appearance necessarily like Dorian Gray or Goryundre's portrait, but it represents the bearer's moral degradation. Yeah, fair, fair. Do you have any ideas just for soulbound objects in fantasy literature or otherwise? Well, there are the Horcruxes from the Harry Potter series. I always forget about them. Yeah, me too. yeah Yeah, because they literally contain a fragment of his soul, right?
00:20:29
Speaker
Well, yeah, well, specifically Voldemort's in those in that series, but presumably any wizard could try to do that, I guess. I don't know. Seems silly just like really magic, isn't it? Yeah, is you have to I think it remember you have to kill to be able to have it. So that's proper. That's proper. I mean, that's not being a liberty.
00:20:52
Speaker
plum proper dark yeah that yeah but proper dark man saron would do it though wouldn't he say would not yeah he'd be like nothing on you Voldemort who would win in a fight Oh, no, no. Competition, I think. No competition, there has to be Sauron. No way. He can introduce, like, come back whenever he wants, you know. Well, technically, so can Voldemort. Yeah, but only, well, if you destroy all the Horcruxes, no. Yeah, no, but if you destroy the ring, also no. And technically, Voldemort has, like, multiple Horcruxes, whereas Sauron just has one ring. and making It's making me think now.
00:21:31
Speaker
We're still going with Sauron. Okay. I mean, we have to. We are, then, my trial podcast, aren't we? Yeah. We are literally based off. It's educational, you know? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I don't know. Leave a comment on our next Instagram post. Yeah, exactly. What do you think? Yeah, we're going to make an Instagram post about this. Who would win? Who would win? Battle to the death of some of our subjects. One of those poles. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. One of those pole malarkeys. What do the kids do? I don't know.
00:22:01
Speaker
Oh, who knows? her ah I don't know anymore. But I was trying to think, so of course I was trying to think of Terry Pratchett, right? Obviously. What that would be. And I couldn't actually think of one, and it was Ash actually who suggested one to me, and then I was thinking about it. So yeah, in Witches Abroad, there's like mirrors, mirror magic is used, and that kind of it shows kind of the true reflection. So for example, there's like a of a frog who gets turned into the prince, but when you look at it in this special mirror, you see him as a frog, not as a prince. But that's, I don't know if that's like, I guess it's sort of similar because Dorian Gray's picture actually reveals his true self, rather than his sort of outward appearance to the world. Yeah, that makes sense to me.
00:22:51
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense to me. ah I managed to get too fractured in again. I knew you would. Do my best. I also thought of, I've not read this one, but it's the Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell books by Susanna Clarke and it's the portraits of it. So there's like magic infused portraits, which are created by the magician, Mr. Norrell, and they kind of serve as like a channel, but then the sort of revealing hidden truths and affected by the the magic of the person they represent and things like that. So that's very kind of similar in a way. It's not necessarily soul bound, but it's a portrait in fiction. It makes me think of the paintings in ah Harry Potter as well. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We're just gonna do a Harry Potter episode.
00:23:46
Speaker
I mean, it's a pretty big fantasy ah universe, I guess, it was sort of hopeful that at some point we would have to deal with it. But um so but yeah, but to be honest, I couldn't think too much. I don't know, I was just thinking, and I can't actually think of that many examples of kind of objects similar to Dorian Gray's picture, like this kind of object, sort of a soulbound so Yeah, the only one that I could really, really think about was in D and
Soulbound Objects in Fiction and Fantasy
00:24:10
Speaker
&D. And obviously it's not fantasy. It is fiction, but it's not maybe, you know, it's in the the annals and like all those kind of the handbooks and stuff, but it's not necessarily a written series or something, which is the soul coins you get in D and&D. adam So they're an actual coin and there are currency in the Nine Hills, which is a vernus.
00:24:29
Speaker
And they're infused with like the tormented or despairing souls. And they're made of like infernal iron. So literally it is a person's soul who's like given up their soul to a devil. That's the only thing, one I could really, really think of, but also I play too much Baldur's Gate, so. I mean, actually I've just, well, although it's not like a cursed soul, but it kind of is, it depends on your perspective. The genie, like technically,
00:24:55
Speaker
But that's like a fate or like a magic. Right? Would the lamp then be like a soulbound object? Like the genie is intrinsically like mixed up with the lamp. That's true. Yeah, I would say that the genie soul is bound to the object unless it's freed. Right. Aladdin. Yeah. Which you should. Can you free yourself from Dorian Gray's picture though?
00:25:18
Speaker
I don't think so. How too dicks isn't there I don't actually how spoiler alert it's been out for a while. If you haven't read it yet, skip ahead a little bit. How does the book end? Like, how does it does? Does it get this? Does the painting get destroyed? And that destroys him destroys it. So again, spoiler alerts at the end of the picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde, Dorian Gray kills Basil. And then with the same knife, he stabs the portrait, thereby killing himself.
00:25:48
Speaker
okay yeah And do they say what happens to the portrait out of curiosity? Does it then become his young self again? I think it does. The portrait returns to its original state and then his body is found with all the disfigurements and wrinkled and you know gnarly on the floor. Oh, try and explain that to the police. Right. we And happens in in the the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which is an excellent fantasy film.
00:26:17
Speaker
It also has Dorian Gray in it. Featuring Sean Connery, exactly. And featuring Dorian Gray as one of the characters. I can't remember the actor who plays him. And yeah, the same thing happens. his The picture is a horrible thing, and they destroy the picture. And that's what then, like, makes him die, basically. Yeah, because there's also the the movie that came out, oh god, like 15 years ago or something with sam Ben Barnes. With Ben Barnes? Speaking of good looking gentlemen.
00:26:45
Speaker
Yeah, definitely my central awakening as a child while watching Prince Caspian. Yes! Well, which is it because of Aslan or... He's Prince Caspian! I know he is, I know he is. I always got annoyed at that because they don't end up together. really just I just couldn't deal with it. You were a romance person even then. Yeah, I know. I was like, why wouldn't you come back?
00:27:09
Speaker
ah i'm with him. Yeah, right. Like he's got a capsule for good. but Anyway. I feel like this episode is getting slightly off track because all of us keep going. We should really get onto the archaeology.
Archaeological Parallels to Fantasy Artifacts
00:27:22
Speaker
That's true. Are there any archaeological artifacts that are similar to Dorian Grace's picture? Well, I had a little look and I was thinking funerary masks.
00:27:35
Speaker
okay So the it ancient Egyptian death masks, okay. oh So I've kind of got an Egyptian theme going on this episode. yeah yeah So like the famous mask of Tutankhamun and they're kind of created as to ah to preserve that sort of idolized shape or image of the deceased. And they sort of reflect the belief in immortality instead of conduits between the physical and the spiritual. So maybe that's kind of how Dorian's portrait is capturing his true self and passage of time, but these masks are eternal and like unchanging of the person that they depict, you know? Oh, yeah. And so yeah, they're forever, forever young in that respect, almost, even though they're dead. but Yeah, exactly.
00:28:21
Speaker
Do you have any any other insights after having of course worked on one of these you know coffins or the the mummy cases or however we want to call it? Can you attest to that? It did make me think of the Schwabties or Ushuaftis or however you want to pronounce this very strange Egyptian word. Schwabties is usually what I hear. They're they're these tiny little they're these tiny little figures either they're sort of like pharaonic shape or humanoid shape and royal tombs would be like filled with but hundreds of these and they would be the servants in the afterlife so they aren't really like souls per se but then they they act as people in the next life and so they're sort of like a
00:29:09
Speaker
one for one kind of. Okay. And were they representatives of real life servants? Like were real servants sacrificed in order to create the Schwabdie or? I don't believe so. Don't quote me on that though. I mean, if we can believe the 1999 classic, starring Brendan Fraser. a moment Sorry, Brendan Fraser. yeah yeah They loved a sacrifice. yeah They loved a sacrifice. so You know, I, you know, ask my Egyptology friends. But I suppose they're very similar almost like as effigies of people, the terracotta army as well. True. Also, because they are also individualized, right? Yeah. Like each one is unique. Yeah, unique. And they're kind of that kind of form of immortality and power, you know, as well. So kind of the same as the eternal youth sort of theme you get in and Dorian Gray.
00:30:06
Speaker
Which technically you could argue that all sorts of like the Greek statues, all of the old depictions of like kings throughout the year throughout history, like ah kind of similar in terms of they're always an idealized version of the person they represent. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, like how they used to send ah portraits to like perspective spouses in the royal family. brother yeah The ultimate kind of fishing.
00:30:37
Speaker
No, no, I swear she's this pretty. Look, look at the picture of her. I thought she was, and Henry was just an... big old poo, you know? I had some choice words, but I wasn't going to say them. And actually, we've already talked about an object that is kind of similar, which is our Mesoamerican mirrors, which we talked about. Obsidian mirrors, which I'm obsessed about because I got that wrong in our quiz. And so I always remember it now. Episode 20, in case anyone's interested. the which is kind of a window into another realm in a person's soul. So it's kind of analogous. Similar to Dorian's portrait.
00:31:21
Speaker
Yeah, true. then And that's almost like the word Oh gosh, that's getting proper deep metaphorical there like if you know with the mirror, and because indeed you see your true self. So it's similar to what we were saying in the fantasy fiction with the mirrors that you see, you don't see what the rest of the world sees you see what you yourself see, you always see your own flaws in a mirror, right?
00:31:41
Speaker
Yeah, so it's like all of these objects we've talked about seem to embody a cultural or ritual kind of significance that reflects the concepts of what? Transformation, immortality, and the hidden like nature of human behaviour. So there's not power. So there's no really direct archaeological equivalent to a magical soulbound portrait that reveals a person's, like, corruption. Weird that. Weird that there's no cursed soulbound objects in the archaeological record.
Symbolism of Immortality and Power in History
00:32:12
Speaker
It just shows you how amazing Oscar Wilde was and how creative he was. yeah But, you know, they set these kind of objects do kind of serve as symbols of hidden truth, immortality and power. Oh, Ash, did you close the archive door?
00:32:25
Speaker
Oh no, did the books escape again? Yes, they did. Sorry Jess and sorry everyone for listening. We're gonna have to just quickly go and catch them before they find their way outside again. It took forever to round them all up last time. So we need to cut short this episode of At My Trial but don't worry, we're going to be continuing our chat with Jess all about soulbound cursed objects and art conservation in next episode with part two.
Episode Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:32:50
Speaker
In the meantime, as always, we're always looking for new episode ideas, new guest speakers to come join us. So if you have any suggestions, do get in contact via email or social media. All of our contact info can be found in the show notes. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe, download all of those kind of things wherever you get your podcasts and do make sure to check out and the rest of the wonderful shows on the Archaeology Podcast Network. In particular, we have some new shows who have joined us in the last couple of months, including one who, if you're a fan of this spooky episode you might enjoy called the Pass macabre, which also deals with Egyptology. So go check that out, our lovely Stephanie Rice. So ah yeah, and until then, bye, see you next time. Bye.
00:33:34
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.