Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Adventures in the Radio Trade
67 Plays1 year ago
To launch Joe's new book Adventures in the Radio Trade, Mark and Joe talk to two of Joe's former CBC Radio colleagues Trish Thornton and Greg DeClute. Trish worked on Morningside for many years and Greg worked with Joe in Radio Drama and on The Vinyl Cafe.
In this fun, spontaneous and (as you will hear) completely unedited conversation, you'll get a behind-the-scenes glimpse of what it was like working for CBC Radio back in the day.
Adventures in the Radio Trade is available (as of Aug 1st) online in softcover, ebook, and hardcover where ever your favourite books are sold. Signed copies are available straight from Donovan Street Press Inc by emailing joemahoney@donovanstreetpress.com
Re-Creative is a co-production of Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with Mark A. Rayner.
Contact us at: joemahoney@donovanstreetpress.com
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Light-hearted Beginnings
00:00:00
Speaker
Okay, now we're... We're good, we're good. Okay, here we go. Yeah. We're among friends, Joe. Now I'm gonna hit the giggles. Okay. Okay, here, I'll throw in the opening theme and then we can play properly. Hey, Mark.
00:00:26
Speaker
Joe, do you know the God of Irony is?
The God of Irony: From Serious to Fun
00:00:32
Speaker
I just looked it up. It's Momus, the God of Irony who's a figure of fun now but was serious when he was first written about.
00:00:42
Speaker
He's up stables. I guess we should start with an apology then for anyone who tried to tune into the to the water event it despite Hey, I was attacked like 20 years ago, okay So it's not radio technology is you know, you know technology just new fangled media. Yeah Managers thinking they know how tech stuff works. I
00:01:10
Speaker
Oh, snap, snap. Ouch. Shots fired. Okay, we have to introduce everybody.
Celebrating Joe's Book Launch with CDC Guests
00:01:18
Speaker
That'll be the first thing you cut, right? That's the voice of Greg DeClute. Also with us is Trish Thornton, two colleagues from the CDC when Joe was working there. All three started in the 80s.
00:01:34
Speaker
Right. Yes. Yeah. And two of my favorite colleagues as I've as I said, the first time we tried this. I have many favorite colleagues, but these are special favorite colleagues. And they're here to help you celebrate the launch of your book, Adventures in the Radio Trade. Yes. Yeah. And thanks for agreeing to be a part of this.
00:01:53
Speaker
I want to jump right in, guys. We'll get to your backgrounds and all the fun stuff you did together with Joe in a minute, but I have a question for you, which has been bothering me.
Revisiting Stalag CBC's Colorful Past
00:02:05
Speaker
Can one of you describe to me the living conditions in Stalag CBC?
00:02:14
Speaker
the radio building where we all started on Jarvis Street, which is the old Havergal College. And I think he used to be able to find some bloomers in there like the old girl's school, some of their old nasty bloomers there. And I know there was the pool in the basement, but mostly I remember mice. That's what I heard too. I had friends that worked there and they were freaked out by the mice everywhere.
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, there was one epic time when I'm on the fifth floor cuz I'm trying to think if that's where Sunday morning was I don't know anyway one of those floors and I remember we were all sitting that was late at night because we're cutting documentaries and whatnot
00:02:53
Speaker
And this mouse just went by and I don't know who, like it wasn't Michael Finley, actually it was Michael Finley, the dearly departed Michael Finley. He just grabbed, you know, remember what telephone books were? You know, they were really thick and just grabbed a telephone book and dropped it on the mouse and that was that. So that's one of my memories.
00:03:19
Speaker
My memory of the radio building is not really about the mice or the building. It's the fact that it was the community that was there. It was so much fun to work there. It was. When I started, there were 88 technical people just in radio, and we had this lounge in the middle, and it was great. It was like being in high school again. There was all kinds of crazy nonsense going on. Larry Morey playing pranks on people.
00:03:46
Speaker
There were card games and people watching TV and it was always somewhere to go for help and it was like a whole... And smoking. And they were smoking. Yeah. It was just like a whole... You should qualify that. Yeah. It was like a whole gang of people all with similar interests because we all were radio technical people. And it was just... It was some of the best times.
Exploring 'Adventures in the Radio Trade'
00:04:09
Speaker
It was such a great place to be for the culture of it.
00:04:14
Speaker
So that's what Joe's book is really about, right? It's about the fun of working at the CBC during a specific time and place, sorry. Double plot there for you, Joe. Oh, you saw what I did there, oh my God. Yeah, so I think maybe, Joe, you should describe what the book's about so that listeners can maybe become readers. Sure, yeah. Well, my editor,
00:04:43
Speaker
Arlene, Ralph, described it as a prose ode to the CBC. I really like the way she put that because I think that's what it basically is.
00:04:54
Speaker
It's, you know, it's not, uh, uh, you know, it's warts and all basically, but it's describing working at the CBC from my perspective as a, as a technician from a certain time period from 1988 to about 2007. And, um, but it's not really, I realized as I was writing it, it's not really about me. Uh, it's really about the CBC. It's, uh, it's, it's almost, if the CBC itself could write a memoir, this would be it.
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah, that was my take on the memoir. I really enjoyed it. And I recommend that everyone who, if everyone's listening to the podcast, likes the podcast, they'll like the book because it's Joe's sense of humor throughout the book. And it's not really about you. Yeah, it's about the CBC. I know Trish is just reconnecting now, but I know she grew up with the CBC, but in my family, I'm a freak.
00:05:44
Speaker
because I listen to the CBC and my family looks at me like, why do you listen to the CBC? He's like, come on guys, it's awesome. How could you not like it? And for me, that's what I loved about the book is it kind of reminded me of all those programs that I love to listen to. And I'm really excited to talk to you guys because you worked on those programs.
Trish Thornton's Morningside Memories
00:06:05
Speaker
Like, so tell me what it was like to work on morning side, for example, with Peter Zoski.
00:06:10
Speaker
Oh, that was that in a way. And I won't lie about that. That was kind of a dream come true. Like I said, I, as you mentioned, I grew up listening to it, my parents, we moved a lot. So no matter where we went in Canada, we could always get the same shows. And that with that really, that helped my mom who was always moving and me who was moving, at least we had something familiar everywhere we went. And I used to be like,
00:06:38
Speaker
I remember being a little kid and listening to This Country in the Morning and thinking, what is this show all about? And I'm learning about Canada. I'm hearing crazy stories. I'm learning about new music. And there was just something. I always just thought, if I get to CBC, if I get to work at CBC,
00:07:06
Speaker
What show would I want to work on? And it would be This Country in the Morning, which was the precursor to Morningside. And actually Morningside was first started by Don Herron, who took over that morning slot from Peter Zoski when This Country in the Morning left, and then Peter came back to it.
00:07:24
Speaker
And a crazy thing is my dad grew up in Galt, Ontario and Peter Zosky was, they knew each other a little bit when they were kids. So there was that connection as well. So that's how you got that gig.
00:07:39
Speaker
No, he does not remember my dad at all. And that was, he was asking, he used to be Peter Brown actually, that was his name. Anyway, so I just thought if I could, I mean, I'm musical and whatnot, but I didn't have the technique. I don't, you know, I worked with so many people and Greg, you're one of them.
00:08:01
Speaker
that just really had the ear for all the music stuff. And I thought I could do the music, but really what I was, I went to journalism school, so I'm a bit of a more of a current affairs wonk. And just the thought, okay, if I could work on the morning side, I know I can retire after that because I've hit my goal.
00:08:24
Speaker
And it happened. Working with him, it was funny because he's a grumpy guy. He's a bit of a grumpy guy. A lot of people don't like him. I had a great connection with him. And I don't know if it's because we talked about sports. None of the people at Morningside knew much about hockey and baseball and stuff. So before the show would start, we'd be talking about whether it's the NHL strike or the Leafs. Are they ever going to be good?
00:08:54
Speaker
Um, and, and I just told it like it is. I never, I never gave him, I never gave him, Oh, it's Peter Zosky. Oh, it's Peter Zosky. I just treated him like normal. And I think he liked that because I don't think he liked being, it's like, Oh my God, it's Peter Zosky. And sadly, um, a lot of people just think he's grumpy because of that. But my God, he was getting up at three in the morning, you know, to come into work. Yeah.
00:09:21
Speaker
I would be more than grumpy. I make it clear in the book that I would be grumpy. Yeah, exactly. And it's true, like, Joe, I remember when I was leaving, I remember I asked you, like, what? Do you want to do Morningside? And you said you weren't ready yet, as I recall. I was intimidated by Morningside. I mean, I had done it, I think, three times, and I'd done the summer version.
00:09:48
Speaker
summer side. But I was because I was kind of like, like you Trish, like I never like I looked at Greg as the truly technician, the true engineer. And it wasn't until I started working in the drama department that I started to believe in that part of myself. Well, that's funny because I've been reading your book. And when you talked about how, you know,
00:10:12
Speaker
And I'm sorry, I don't mean this for you, Joe and me, but, but the real technicians, like they, they read the manuals and they knew all about the mics and they knew this, you know, let's put the mics there. And they could do a Facebook live properly. Yeah, the articles are on their way. And I was the same as you, like I just, you know, it's like, let's just get the show on the air and I'll figure stuff out afterwards.
00:10:42
Speaker
So I want to hear from Greg a little bit. So I'll ask you about one of my other favorite shows, The Vinyl Cafe, because I know you were really involved with that. And your background is in recording music. So that must have been, for you, a wonderful job.
Greg DeClute's Vinyl Cafe Highlights
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah. Let me just say something about what Joe and Trish just said, though. Yeah, of course. That whole idea of the real technician.
00:11:04
Speaker
I understand what you're saying. I did spend a lot of time, a lot of my own time learning all that kind of stuff, but I also had a real respect for the people that did the kind of things that you did.
00:11:18
Speaker
I did not ever want to do a morning side or Sunday morning or those kind of live morning shows that were like you're going from a three-way to a two-way and then back to a couple of clips and then back to some other thing. That was not my thing. You're saying that the thing that I did was not your thing.
00:11:40
Speaker
Morningside would not have been my thing. I think that would have been a disaster to put me into that kind of thing. And I always had respect for people like you who could do those kinds of shows. Because I know how hard that was and that's why I did not want to do it. Well, they're both complicated in different ways, right? Yeah, they're different skill sets. Yeah. Oh, they were intimidating as hell. Like the first time that you were asked to do them.
00:12:06
Speaker
Yeah, you know, yeah, it's live like ship their flagship shows, right? Yeah, everyone is listening to those shows and whoever is listening to the CBC, not my family. Obviously. Yeah, there was not one morning there was not one morning where just before it was like 801 or 8001 that my stomach didn't flip
00:12:27
Speaker
when I pressed the starting theme song. Not one morning that my stomach didn't flip. Seriously. The thing with those shows, they were high profile. They were super busy. You were often doing three or four things at the same time. And if you made a mistake, everybody in the country knew. Well, not in the country because you could remake it. But if you made a mistake, it was a big deal. And it was really, really hard not to make a mistake when you had that many balls in the air. Oh, yeah.
00:12:55
Speaker
So back to that point about not everyone heard it. So my understanding is the CBC has got a really strong listenership in Atlantic Canada.
00:13:05
Speaker
Which is who hears all the mistakes, right? Yeah, they have a good sense of humor. So is there a connection there that they like that? Well, you know what? You know, these posters, you know, how many F bombs and S bombs were dropped in the first hour? And it's like, oh, we got to fix it. We got to fix it. But you know, Atlantic Canada heard all the words.
00:13:26
Speaker
And I think they probably had a better experience than the rest of them. If it were me, I'd rather hear the first version than hear version number five that goes to Vancouver. Because by that time, it's been done to death. There's no life in it at all. It's just like, oh yeah, we're going to read the same stories we read four times already. I'd rather hear the spontaneous one. Yeah.
00:13:51
Speaker
That's exactly right. That's why we started with a different question the second time around. It's like, it's not going to be as fun. Yeah. Second time around. It was always funny when, like there was one, am I allowed to swear here? A little bit. Yeah, of course. Yeah. God damn it. We encourage, we encourage prevention. There was one, what was her name? She was this, like, she, this, she's a linguist and she was on the show and, and she said the word shit.
00:14:20
Speaker
And Peter's like, oh my God, and Patsy Peale and the executive producer came running it. Oh my God, remake. And there, Margaret Visser, that was the name. Margaret Visser, she said, oh, Peter, shit is a good Anglo-Saxon world. That's something I'll never forget. That's a lot of radio, eh? Yeah.
00:14:44
Speaker
Okay, so switching gears back to Joe here. This is supposed to be about Joe or at least his book But I never did it. I never I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah, you never answer my What are you hiding Greg? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I didn't want to say anything bad about the vinyl
00:15:03
Speaker
No, I have to say, other than the one show that Joe and I did together, the Final Cafe was the thing that was the highlight of my career, I feel. I feel like that was the best work that I did in that kind of a vein. It was a great show. The work with the people were great. The audience loved it.
00:15:25
Speaker
It just was the perfect place for me and I think the group just worked so well together. It was the pinnacle of my career at the CBC, I think. Luckily, I got to do it for a long, long time. And you traveled with the show, right?
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah, so they would the way it would work is we do three each month. Obviously, there's four shows, right? It was on once a week. So we do three studio shows. And then there was a live show. And so so the shows would tour, sometimes it would be a long tour, like the Christmas tour would have 2628 dates. And we would record one, you know, sort of, was that called a tour? The bookstore? Yeah, for the turkey.
00:16:12
Speaker
Wasn't that the turkeys' name? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, true. So partway through the tour, the show would get recorded. Once it was all worked in, it was all set, it was all tweaked, but not to the point where it got stale. And so I wouldn't show it within the entire time, but I'd meet up with them a lot of times partway through the tour.
00:16:37
Speaker
And it was great because we have the three of us me Jess and Stewart would have a great time in the studio shows and then we were on the when we're on the road it was even more fun.
Vinyl Cafe: Behind the Scenes
00:16:46
Speaker
And it was just working at a really high level working really hard but really loving what you're doing and really doing a great show and it was great that the audience really really liked it too so it just had everything for me.
00:17:00
Speaker
That's great. You were the perfect guy, Greg, for that. Yeah, I can believe you were. Because there's a lot of music. We should probably explain this for people who've never heard the vinyl cafe. Are there archived versions they can hear on the CBC? Yeah, you can get it. Yeah, the CBC podcasts. Yeah, you can just do it. Check them out because they really are wonderful. Stuart McLean was the host and he's...
00:17:21
Speaker
He won the Leacock Award, I don't know, more times than I'll ever put together to send it in. Okay, maybe. But anyway, he was a wonderful host. He had sort of like our Garrison Keeler in Canada. For American listeners, that maybe will connect for them. It was a wonderful show and I really loved it. It was the kind of radio that if you were in your car listening to it, you couldn't get out of your car until it was done. Yeah, a lot of people said that, yeah.
00:17:49
Speaker
He would tell these stories, these Dave and Morley stories. He had this fictional world and he would tell these Dave and Morley stories about the situations that Dave would get himself into, these comical situations.
00:18:03
Speaker
But he had the power to be really funny, but also be very, like really pull at your heartstrings at the same time. Like he could do both and he was really good at both. And I always say he was one of those rare people where he was a very, very good writing. And as you say, he won the Stephen Leacott Award three times for his writing.
00:18:25
Speaker
but he was also a great performer. You get people who are good writers or good performers, but you don't often get somebody who's both. And he was really, really good at both.
00:18:35
Speaker
And he started at Morningside too, right? Yeah. That's where he sort of gained popularity. That wasn't the first thing, but I feel like he got popular. I feel like Trish was trying to get in there. It was like a half hour of the summer replacement show and it was just a half hour. And it was David Amer, one of the music producers at Morningside, he and
00:19:01
Speaker
Stuart. And of course, Stuart used to do those little talk tapes with Peter that were just, you know, they're golden. They're golden. So it just made so much sense for him to peel off and do that. And to this day, I haven't worked at CBC Radio for years. And to this day, I would say
00:19:22
Speaker
you know, five out of eight people that I know, they, Oh, did you work with Stuart McLean? Did you do vinyl cafe? It's like, Oh yeah. Like even, even now people are saying, where can I get it? Why didn't, why don't they just play the reruns and whatnot. So yeah, it was, it was a real treasure.
00:19:46
Speaker
And it's funny too because I worked with Dave Amer and Stewart on it in the very early days before Jess came. And I know that they did the pilot and the CBC was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. And then they sat it on a shelf for five years.
00:20:02
Speaker
I met David Amer. I worked at CBC for like 20 seconds and I don't know why he was there, but he was at the station at Parliament Street where I did my internship and then I did some relief there as an associate producer.
00:20:21
Speaker
And yeah, there's this guy up in the record archive we had there. I was sent up to get comedy albums, which I got in trouble for. But anyway, I met this guy, David Abert. He had all these really cool records he was collecting. I'm like, what are you doing? He said, well, it's for the show called Final Cafe. And we had this kind of cool idea about a record shop. And I'm like, that sounds really nice.
00:20:44
Speaker
So that would have been 92. When did the show start? The show started... Go ahead, Trish. Yeah, no, like it was 92, 93 when we would do the summer version. So that's probably what it was then. Who's getting ready for that first? Okay, cool.
00:21:03
Speaker
So Joe, I feel like you haven't said much. Is there a show in the book? Yeah, I know. But you know, it's podcast is a different medium. So is there a show that you would want to talk about in terms of like, really blew your mind or was a great experience or inspiring to work on or
00:21:24
Speaker
Well, I mean, I enjoyed working on all of them. Like, I was a huge fan of quirks and quirks, actually, you know, before I started working for the CBC and when I was in Ryerson.
00:21:35
Speaker
I needed to interview somebody for a project. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to go for the gusto and I'm going to try to ring up Jay Ingram, who is the original, or not the original. I think David Stup who started. Yeah. But the one that I knew was Jay Ingram. So I phoned the CBC and I said, yeah, I'd like to get a hold of Jay Ingram. And I wound up
00:22:01
Speaker
Talking to him like and I couldn't believe it was like so he was so accessible and immediately agreed to the interview and I interviewed him for like 45 minutes and I think I got a reasonably good mark on the on the project and then fast-forward a couple of years and I'm working for the CBC and I'm working with this guy recording, you know two ways and interviews and whatnot and And then just just for fun when he left quirks and quirks and
00:22:29
Speaker
To be replaced by Bob McDonald. I had the cassette of our interview and I gave it to him and I'm sure he's like, yeah, I'm never gonna listen to this but Yeah, but I don't know I just I don't I don't know why I thought it was important to give it to him. I was probably 25 or something and I don't know. But yeah, anyway, so that was that was a really cool experience for me working for quirks and court
00:22:57
Speaker
Okay, so I guess I'm the guy who still says the next question. Okay, so I did have a question that I started asking Greg, and then he rudely interrupted me because I didn't let him finish the earlier answer. No, I'm joking. So, okay, who coined the phrase Wing Commander Joe?
00:23:18
Speaker
I don't know the answer to that. Do you know the answer to that? No. Do you remember that nickname? No. I was reading Joe's book and he's holding out on me. He had a nickname that he didn't share, Wing Commander Joe. So apparently he was being called Wing Commander Joe. I guess Joe, you'll have to explain that story.
00:23:34
Speaker
Well, okay. So in an earlier podcast, one of the questions, Mark always likes to start a podcast by asking me a question. And one of them was, you know, what did you ever have any nicknames? And so I threw some out and I didn't mention Wing Commander Joe, which is a nickname that I mentioned in the book that I had done. Remember when Greg remembers this, I spent forever trying to get the science fiction show by the name of Faster Than Light off the ground. Oh, yeah. I do remember that. Yeah.
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah and we only ever got one episode on the air but we made several pilots and then somebody at one point said man you got somebody pilots underneath here that we should start calling a wing commander. That sounds like something that Tim would say. Yeah I don't know who said it but yeah somebody definitely I thought maybe it was you Greg but
00:24:24
Speaker
No, it wasn't me. That's it. Are you kidding? That's a science fiction joke. I wouldn't make the science fiction joke. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Maybe it was Tim Lohrmer. And we thought we should, you know, give it a nod to our, to poor Tim, who we lost this summer at the age of 65. Yeah. I'm sorry, guys. That's, that's, yeah, that's hard.
00:24:46
Speaker
Uh, maybe we'll switch gears there. So in terms of like, you're all, you spent your time basically being radio engineers. Is that, is that the right sort of term or do you prefer sound engineer tech technician? Like, yeah, I guess that's a question that each one would in the book. Yeah. Yeah. Like we start as technicians, like that's what we're called. Yeah. Yeah. It's asking us to give me a credit as recording engineer. Right. That's he just used to call me that, but I was already technician. I was never.
00:25:16
Speaker
I was never a group six. I never got that group six, even though I was live three hours a day. You never got the group six. But are you bitter? No, no, you know what? If I thought it, I probably would have stayed longer. But it didn't look like it was happening. So but it was good. I had a I had a great career, 10 year career there. Yeah, that's pretty good. I mean, 10 years anywhere. It's some people argue 10 years is time to move on.
00:25:44
Speaker
Yeah. Well, in the new world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you did start out as technicians, which I always thought was weird because to me, technician is the guy like under the hood of your car who like fixes it, which is not what it was. Like maintenance technicians. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Except they're not even called technicians. They're called technologists at the CDC. Yeah. Yeah. So I was, I'm going to sheepishly say I was a recording engineer.
00:26:10
Speaker
And it really only was that it was just a different type of work which really gave you that title. It was more like the music recording kind of thing was more like a recording engineer position. Well, and the actual official names that they gave us were often misleading or inaccurate because for many years while we were recording engineers, we were actually called technician associate producers.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yes, that's true, which was absolutely wrong at the time. Yeah. So this is the heartbreak of the CBC, which I've heard people talk about it. It's a large human institution. So, you know, organization, there's always gonna be problems. Well, that's the thing. Yeah, you know, and I should probably take that opportunity to, you know, to mention that to me, the book is a very, it's pro CBC, because I'm a huge CBC fan. I loved working there. And, you know, and feel like I had a, you know, a really good
00:27:06
Speaker
career. And, but as I think I mentioned earlier, you know, I don't leave out some of the words because it is it's like you said, it's a human institution. It's not 100% perfect. There's always things that could be improved upon, like calling people what they actually do what they do and respecting the work they do. Yeah. Okay, so it's a very it's a creative place, right? So there are egos and there are divas and there's insecurity and there's
00:27:34
Speaker
all of that stuff going on in every role, from copy clerks to managers. We all were behind the same creative force, but from different angles.
00:27:51
Speaker
But at the same time, yeah, sorry, Greg, I'll just say very quickly that but at the same time, I've never, I think, been spent so much time with such a group of like minded people, you know, like, I mean, I stayed there 35 years and it's because I mostly because I love the people. Well, I was gonna say something similar to that, which is like, what you're talking about about the people.
00:28:13
Speaker
is that everybody that was there was there because they loved it. You didn't go there to get rich, you didn't go there to get famous, you went there because you loved to do the work and you really wanted to be there and you really respected the institution and you wanted everything that you did to be of that level that deserved
00:28:37
Speaker
to, you know, you wanted to be of the quality that that the CBC expected. And so that also adds an element of another element of like, when Trish was talking about ego and stuff, that that love of it too, is as a whole different dynamic. Yeah, it cuts both ways. I mean, yeah, it's hard, you can't, you can't love something and care about it a lot. And then not sometimes have an edge to you.
00:29:07
Speaker
I found, as Joe well knows, I got put on a show
CBC vs BBC: A Content Comparison
00:29:12
Speaker
and immediately started having a problem with the other person who was sort of the lead on the show until I came to realize, and we butted heads for a while, until I came to realize the reason we're butting heads is we both want this thing to be as good as possible.
00:29:26
Speaker
And once I realized that, then it stopped. But that sometimes does happen. Like, everybody just loved being there so much, it added this other dynamic. And sometimes that clash is a positive thing.
00:29:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's a creative clash, not a destructive one. Yeah, and it was at that time too. I just didn't recognize it at first. I think one of the things that our listeners that don't listen to the CBC might want, hopefully they're going to check out the CBC as well as Joe's book after this.
00:30:00
Speaker
because I really do think that it's wonderful. I've listened to a lot of BBC and I don't know, maybe I'm just being a jingoist here, but I kind of prefer the CBC to the BBC, but maybe it's because I don't like cricket.
00:30:15
Speaker
When I listened to the BBC, it was like, okay, it's the top of the hour. Here's some cricket coming at me. Because apparently there's cricket all the time, every all year. I don't know. Another test match, whatever that means. And it also does take for it does take forever too. So they got a lot to talk about.
00:30:36
Speaker
It's one match they're recording on the whole week. I had some titles that you maybe might want to use, Joe, and maybe you guys could just explain what some of these terms mean to people. One of the things that I found really interesting about the book was just…
00:30:55
Speaker
Some of the concepts were interesting to me because there's, there's like the mathematics and poetry to doing audio that exists in film. And I think people understand it in film, but I don't know that they understand it in audio as much. And so that's one of the things I really liked about the book was you kind of got into those. I thought the term threshold shift was a great title and I might use it in another book, but explain what that means.
00:31:25
Speaker
Nope. Sorry, Trish. I wasn't trying to put... Joe, you've written the book, so you have to answer, but maybe Greg can answer. Well, I think that's a Joe term. I can't answer that because I don't really... I know there's a couple of things in the book where Joe has terms for things that are slightly different, so I'm not 100% sure what he meant by that.
00:31:52
Speaker
But if he reminds me... Okay, so, Joe, you have to explain it, because I literally like... I love this idea, because there's like... Embedded in this threshold shift is like this idea that actually is kind of a universal idea, but maybe... Well, first, let me explain that... I just made up everything in the book. It's like... No, no, no. Alright, so... No, no, no. No, it's really a thing. It's... And in the context of the book and how I was talking about it, it's...
00:32:20
Speaker
It's a threshold shift with your ears where there's like ear fatigue. And so, when you're working on a show, you know, editing it, mixing it, whatever, your ears registered at a certain level at the beginning, but at the end, with ear fatigue, there's a threshold shift where, you know, if you're not careful, you're turning things up and then you're having difficulty with the levels.
00:32:46
Speaker
And the example that I use to illustrate that is if you're driving in your car and as you increase the speed of the car, you're turning up the volume of the radio. Do you know to hear the radio or the music or whatever? And then you get out of the car at the grocery store and then go to your groceries, get back in the car, turn on the car and the music is blasting.
00:33:07
Speaker
And you can't believe how loud it is because, and you've been a victim of- My idiot broke into my car and turned up and sound. Yeah. But you've been gradually turning it up to accommodate, you know, and that's, that's what I meant by a threshold shift. And I think that's kind of a universal, I mean, maybe it's not universal, but in terms of writing, that's totally true. Cause if you're working on a text and you've been working on it for a long time and it's almost impossible to see the mistakes in it after a while because you're just so used to it. And even if,
00:33:38
Speaker
Even if it's wrong, you can't see this wrong because your brain is filling in the pieces that are maybe missing or editing out the pieces that are wrong. And it's exactly like that. I'm sure there's other fields where that happens. I just, I just love that term. I thought that was really cool. Well, I'm glad. So, uh, okay. So, uh, maybe this is one that Trish, you can tell me what is reference tone. I guess that's the, is that the tone that we send to master control to line up our board?
00:34:08
Speaker
Like this is old fashioned. This is like a VU meter. I know now every, I don't even know if they use VU meters anymore. I have no idea. This is all magic to me. First of all, the main thing is just to make sure you know that in 10 minutes you're going to go on air. So, or you're going to record something or something, but it's mostly for live stuff. I think I know you put tone on the top of a tape. I think that was going to go out, but, but it was like you would send a tone.
00:34:37
Speaker
and make sure that what's going out of your board is exactly what's going out to the world. Because you never know. Everybody used every board. Yes, I did Morningside, and I was in one studio, but then the rest of the day, I might be somewhere else, and other people would come in and use the Morningside board and whatnot.
00:34:58
Speaker
You just had this, it's setting a standard. It's like, okay, we're ready to go. And there had been times when you send tone and they're like, I'm not getting it because someone with a patch cord has over-patched because they wanted to do a dub or something. And you're getting nothing out of your board. And if you didn't line up with that tone to make sure your board is in sync with the rest of the boards,
00:35:24
Speaker
Like nothing, nothing goes to air. So, yeah, there's nothing happening. And you'd also get yelled at by Ron Minhinnett if you, if you didn't call. Well, I'm sure you yelled at by the producer too. The producer didn't care about that. It was, this was, this was a technical thing actually, but they would, they would worry if you hadn't, they would worry if you hadn't, and then the show didn't go to air of course, but, um,
00:35:50
Speaker
But yeah, this was really to show your fellow brothers and sisters in master control that you're on the ball and you're ready to go.
00:35:59
Speaker
So you mentioned Ron Manhattan because I originally had him in a draft of the book as one of the guys working in master control. But I realized I didn't know how to spell his last name and I couldn't find it anywhere. So really I had to take him out. Yeah, there was there was another there was another function for tone to which was because as Trish mentioned, you would put tone at the top of the tape.
00:36:23
Speaker
And what that was often for was for aligning playback. So when you recorded your tape, you would send it to master and they'd put the tape up and there was an output level on the tape machine. And so in order to set that right, it's the same level that you were using when you recorded it. They would listen to the tone, they would line it up so the output was the same as what your output was so that the tape would basically come back at the same level.
00:36:48
Speaker
Yeah, it gives you an even number that or whatever. Yeah, it just sets the standards. So everything's the same. Both know what it is. So you know exactly where you are. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I think someone has to explain master control.
00:37:00
Speaker
because it sounds very science fictional and weird. Joe was probably the best one. Did you ever work in Master Trish? I never worked in Master Trish so I can't explain it. You know what? I did breaks and I just prayed to... I found religion in Master Trish. Nothing would happen because I had no idea what to do.
00:37:19
Speaker
I could explain what it does but I couldn't, I never worked there so I don't know the inner working group. Well, I think what it does is enough for the audience. Well, yeah. I mean, it was the central hub. That's where programs, you would do the programs, you know, and back in the era that we're talking about, producers would deliver the programs on tape and then the people in master control, Peter Chin, Ron Minhenet, Ron Grant,
00:37:47
Speaker
Jeanette Cipos, the rest of them, they would, um, Kenny Lumsden, uh, they would put the tapes up and play them back from, from master control. And there would be like a computerized schedule with a computer that dated back to the sixties, which amazed me. And, uh, and it basically switched between all the programs and shot them off through the country to other tape from a cassette tape was where the program was on. Right. Uh, well, it was quarter inch tape.
00:38:17
Speaker
No, no, no. I mean, like the whole program was run through a cassette tape. Yeah. And to be clear, the audio programs came from quarter inch tape, but the computer was run by a cassette tape.
00:38:33
Speaker
So basically, it's a guy with a Radio Shack recording. Yeah, Tandy. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Okay, that's, that's great. I have one more, I have one more. And I think this might be a great one. I'm just guessing. Because I also thought it was a cool term that might make a good title. Capsule, capsule distortion.
00:38:56
Speaker
Oh, capsule distortion. Capsule distortion. Yeah, that's also a Joe phrase, but what he's talking about is... What does he mean? Yeah, it's basically just microphone distortion. So you can have a microphone, like we're all talking on microphones right now, and we all set them up with level so that we know that our level is not too loud and it's not distorting electronically.
00:39:22
Speaker
But what you can also do to a microphone is if you put it in front, because the microphone has a little diaphragm inside that vibrates when it hears sound, and it converts that vibration in the air into electricity.
00:39:36
Speaker
But if you put that microphone in front of an extremely loud source, it'll move the diaphragm more than it physically can. And so it will create distortion. Like physical distortion in the microphone. So it's meant to, the diaphragm is meant to move a certain amount of distance.
00:39:56
Speaker
And the louder the thing is, the more it will move. But if you put it in front of something extremely loud, it will bottom out and you'll destroy it at the microphone. Yeah, you put Pavarotti in front of a nice microphone. He's going to basically destroy it with his voice. So you could have a really low level that should never distort, but you're still hearing distortion because the microphone itself is physically, it's overblown.
00:40:23
Speaker
But the diaphragm can't do what it's trying to do. And sometimes we would learn this the hard way because I remember we had Julie Black in one day and I used a 414 on her and she just, her and her entourage just belted it out and I got what I call capsule distortion and it was, you know, embarrassing. Because the problem is when you get regular distortion and you're sitting at the console, you can just turn the input down.
00:40:51
Speaker
but when the microphone is distorting, there's nothing, you can't control it. You have to either use a different microphone or move it further away from the sound source.
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's like when there's too much light in a digital image. There's nothing you can do about it. There's nothing here. It just overloads it physically. And I know this might be really wonky, but I think actually this is stuff that, because podcasting has become pretty big, and I think this is stuff people should know about as someone who's listening to audio. That's what's happening with podcasting. It's all audio. Absolutely. Yeah. So that leads me to my last question for you guys. What's the future of radio?
00:41:32
Speaker
Like, I mean, actual terrestrial radio too, like, yeah. I don't know if it's ever going to disappear from cars. And I know that sounds really just kind of, oh, basically it's going to be in cars, but, and I know people have serious music and whatnot. I have heard rumors that AM radio might be going away. I don't, I don't know. I mean, we don't, CBC,
00:41:55
Speaker
I don't know anywhere across the country. If it's on AM anymore, Joe, you might know more than I do, but... Oh, I think there's still... Yeah. I think like, you know, certain talk radio is still AM. Yeah. Oh, it's huge. And you know, the other thing that's gonna... Like sports talk is never going away because it's got to be live and it's got to be... I mean, you can listen to a sports podcast, but it's...
00:42:22
Speaker
you're not going to get a play by play and whatnot. So radio, I've been out of it for a while. And I don't listen a lot anymore. I do a lot of listen to a lot of podcasting. So I mean, in my opinion, one of the things when I was at CBC, right at the end was when podcasting was starting and and I
Podcasting vs Radio: The Everlasting Debate
00:42:48
Speaker
was
00:42:48
Speaker
I remember telling my boss Charlie and whatnot, it's like, you know, we could be doing all of these things. Just put them on podcasts. Put old, you know, when Zosky and Stuart McLean used to do their little, you know, 20-minute things, like put those on podcasts. It's just, it's audio. It's audio. It doesn't matter.
00:43:08
Speaker
I think CBC was still at that point worried about, Oh, well at three, three in the afternoon, no one's going to listen to that. It's like, you know, then let people listen on demand. I think they've come around to that a lot. Um, I still turn it on for the news. I think news is still got the fresh stuff. News sports, anything that's happening, current affairs, um, and live music too. You know, for that matter, God, that's one thing I do miss on CBC.
00:43:34
Speaker
radio is, you know, when I first started, I was a roadie for a lot of the senior techs. And we do blue rodeo and whatnot and have live broadcast. I don't think it's gone. Because people still demand that stuff. Well, look how successful the tragically hip final broadcast was. Exactly. Exactly.
00:43:55
Speaker
The thing about radio though, I don't know necessarily where it's going to go, but I think there's a bunch of value there that I think is going to cause it to not go away at least. Like A, it's accessible, right? It's free. So everybody can access it. You could also access it when you're on the
00:44:17
Speaker
on the go. Tris is in your car, if you're walking, if you're on the bus, if you're wherever. It's not a visual medium so you can do it. You can listen to it anywhere. You can also listen to it while you're doing anything. It's not like television where you have to sit down in front of it or whatever. You can be cooking or you can be cutting the grass or you can be doing whatever and listening to it.
00:44:40
Speaker
And I find that the thing that I like about it too is that it's a push medium so things get sent to you. Podcasts don't work as well for me because you have to know what you want before you get it. The thing I like about radio is it sends you stuff you don't know you like until you hear it. And so you hear lots of music. I used to hear all this new music and all these new bands and all this kind of stuff on the radio.
00:45:06
Speaker
But now that I don't listen to the radio all that much because it's changed a lot, I find I don't hear all these new bands. I don't hear all this stuff that's going on because it's not being pushed to me. To me, the real problem with podcasts is you have to know what you're looking for before you find it. I love the idea of them sending you something that you'll probably like.
00:45:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting because the power went out here in London, Ontario a few days ago. And so I had my books, so I was fine. I had something to do. I thought, it's weird to have the house totally quiet. So I pulled out, I got like one of those emergency radios, you can crank them up. But it does, you know, it does AM FM bands and also a shortwave. So I put it on FM and exactly what you said, Greg. I just started, I just found a station and they were playing like some kind of like,
00:45:59
Speaker
50s rock stuff mixed in with some 80s head metal. It was really weird eclectic mix of stuff, but it kind of all worked together. And I was like, I'm enjoying this. This is like, this is all music I've never heard before. And I would never have ever thought to listen to this, as you say, you know, I wouldn't have looked for it. Yeah, like it. Yeah, if it was a podcast, you never would have found it.
00:46:22
Speaker
No, I wouldn't have. No, absolutely not. And it's funny, it just reminded me of something. I remember, what was Jeff Pavier's show called? Prime Time, wasn't it? Prime Time. Okay, so Prime Time was on at 8 o'clock, right after As It Happens. And they were finding, you know, CBC always wanted, sorry, my cat, you might hear my cat, CBC always was looking for another, like, let's get the new generation, we need younger people, younger people, and oh, you know, we got to get past all this,
00:46:52
Speaker
Zoski and stuff. So Prime Time, which was a pop culture, it was a great show and Greg Diamond was on it and Nancy Kelly and a lot of great people on it. And it was pop culture, it was fun, it was new, it wasn't Zoski, it wasn't Michael Enright and stuff.
00:47:08
Speaker
And it came on right after As It Happens. And what they found is they were getting a bunch of like 20, you know, 20 to 30 year olds who were discovering As It Happens because they turned the radio on before and listened to the end of that show. And then listened to Jeff Pravere and Primetime.
00:47:28
Speaker
So, so Greg, you're right. That's something you didn't know you wanted that, but you heard a show and it's like, Oh, I'm going to tune into, you know, like tapestry who has a show like tapestry, which is, which is, it's funny, it's deep, it's emotional. And, you know, and it's just like, Oh, I, I don't even think it's about, you know, sometimes about religion. I would never go looking for it. But man, oh man, they've had some great shows.
00:47:55
Speaker
And that's something that you discover because you're listening to something else before or after. And that doesn't happen in podcasts. Yeah. It's funny, even my daughter, she listens to it in her car now. I think mostly because she does a lot of traveling and I think she can kind of get it anywhere. And she's always coming out there texting me or calling me and saying, what is happening on this? They're talking about
00:48:22
Speaker
you know, like people who think they're witches dancing in the forest in Ireland or whatever, but you're, you were interested enough that you remembered it and you're telling me about it now. She's always, yeah, she's always like, she loves the story, but she's like, why are they talking about this? Because they just, they just send you these crazy things and you know, they, it just fills your brain with all this stuff that it wouldn't have been there if you hadn't been listening.
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's the thing I love about CBC the most. It just fills my brain with full stuff that I wouldn't have known about otherwise. Yeah. Joe, anything else we should talk about? No, I think we're approaching a time. And I'm just deeply appreciative of Greg and Tricia joining us to reminisce about the old days and for you steering the ship.
00:49:13
Speaker
Well, thank you both for coming because it's been just wonderful talking to you and caring about behind the scenes. It's just so much for me. I'm a fan, obviously. I mean, obviously, I'm a fan of CBC. So I've really enjoyed talking to you both. Thanks so much. Yeah, I am too. When I was reading the book, Joe, it was really interesting because I thought a couple of times.
00:49:35
Speaker
I could have written this book because our pads were so similar. So many of the things you wrote about us, I could have written this book and it almost feels like a book about my time too. And I don't know Trish, do you feel that same thing? It's kind of a little bit about you too.
00:49:52
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I mean, the first part of it more because I, you know, I left up, you know, when Joe was still just a technician. I didn't get to see his meteoric soaring to the top of the top of the technical CBC world. But, um, no, and, and it was actually, you know, just reading it just, you know, just made me remember what a wonderful time it was and the wonderful people. And, and, you know, I got to fulfill some of my life goals there.
00:50:21
Speaker
No question. Well, as Joe says, I think it's as much about the CBC as it is about. It's more about the CBC than it is about. Yeah, it's kind of a love letter. Yeah. But and I'm glad that you guys were there to, you know, be a part of the journey because you were an important part of the journey, which is why you figure so prominently in the book. Yes, you got you both of your names are mentioned many times. So I was like, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah.
00:50:48
Speaker
Okay, I think we're done. Didn't we do it? Yeah, you know what? Here, I'll just make it clear. Oh, wait. That's the wrong one. I screwed up the... Tactical problems again. Oh, here we go. Joe hit. But I'm going to... Joe nails it technically once again. I'm going to be posting this with all its words as well. Are you saying you did Morningside with all these technical mistakes? You did Morningside?
00:51:15
Speaker
I was younger then. Yeah, I had more chops back then. That's funny. How do you think you got the gray hair? Yeah. All right, okay. I'm hitting the stop. All right. Well, that was wonderful, guys. Thanks.