Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Breaking the Poverty Cycle: Jackie Cummings Koski's Path to $1.3 Million Net Worth
264 Plays10 months ago
Join us in this episode of the 'Forget About Money' podcast as Jackie Cummings Koski shares her incredible journey from poverty to financial independence, retiring at 49 with a $1.3 million net worth on a modest salary.
Discover how Jackie overcame adversity, maximized her 401(k), and invested wisely to break free from the poverty cycle. Her dedication to financial literacy and empowering others in diverse communities is truly inspiring.
Timestamps:
0:00:00 Transformative Journey
0:04:46 Shaping Personal Finance Approach
0:06:31 Doing More with Money
0:10:17 Transition to Financial Knowledge
0:17:16 Sharing Financial Wisdom
0:23:03 Transition to Advocating
0:25:27 Meeting People Where They Are
0:28:06 Notable Success Story
Follow 'Forget About Money' Podcast:
Instagram: @forgetaboutmoney
YouTube: @forgetaboutmoneypodcast
Get Jackie's Book: Unlock financial wisdom with Jackie Cummings Koski's book, "Money Letters 2 My Daughter," available on Amazon: Get Your Copy here: https://www.amazon.com/Money-Letters-2-My-Daughter/dp/0989186008
✨ Engage with the Content:
Like if Jackie's journey inspires you! Comment your insights on overcoming poverty. Subscribe for more empowering stories and financial advice. Share this episode to spread the message of financial independence!
#PovertyCycle #FinancialFreedom #JackieCummingsKoski #InvestingWisely #RetirementGoals #MoneyManagement #PersonalFinanceTips #Empowerment #FinancialLiteracy #ForgetAboutMoneyPodcast #MoneyLetters2MyDaughter #WealthBuilding #Inspiration
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Jackie Kummings-Koski
00:00:00
Speaker
Today, we share a single mother's transformative journey from growing up in poverty to becoming one of the most passionate educators of financial independence. Here we go. Today, our guest is Jackie Kummings-Koski. She's a notable figure in the world of personal finance, especially in the context of financial independence.
00:00:21
Speaker
Koski authored Money Letters to My Daughter, a personal finance book aimed at imparting financial wisdom.
Journey to Financial Independence
00:00:27
Speaker
Her journey is remarkable, overcoming a challenging childhood as the daughter of a single father and a family of six to retiring at 49 with a net worth of $1.3 million. She achieved this feat on a modest salary, never exceeding $80,000 per year.
00:00:43
Speaker
She did this through strategic financial planning and investments. Koski's story is not just about financial success, but also about empowering others, particularly in the black community to achieve financial independence. Welcome to the show, Jackie. Thanks, David. You're my old buddy. I'm glad to be on the show with you today. Look, I'm loving the Tupac in the background. I'm vibing with that. All right. It keeps me in check over here. Yeah, yeah. It helps with the energy.
Early Life and Influences
00:01:11
Speaker
You are a mover and shaker in the financial independence world. Your passion is personal finance and helping others. Can you walk us through your personal finance journey? Yeah, so you mentioned that I grew up in poverty in rural South Carolina and I was raised by a single dad and it was six of us.
00:01:29
Speaker
So we're growing up in this house, and this is a small ranch home. So it was tough. I wore hand-me-downs in school. I was on the free lunch program. So it wasn't a childhood that was even close to middle class. We were in poverty.
00:01:44
Speaker
But my dad, he worked his butt off and he passed on some really good, I guess, habits. You don't have to be wealthy to have good financial habits. He had an amazing work ethic. He didn't really believe in debt. But about two months before I graduated from high school, he got cancer and he passed away.
00:02:04
Speaker
So most of what I remember about him and learned from him was in my formidable years when I was under 18. So one of the biggest things I did to try to make sure I would never be in poverty. I just wanted a good job. I just wanted to be middle class. So when I decided to go off to college, I figured that would make a big difference and it would help me get a better job with the benefits because that's what I was taught growing up.
00:02:28
Speaker
So I went to college. During college, I did what my dad taught me to do, and that was work hard to pay for the things that you had. So mine was tuition.
The Impact of Divorce
00:02:39
Speaker
And even though I got a few scholarships and grants, I still had to work.
00:02:45
Speaker
two jobs, sometimes 50 plus hours a week, just to make sure tuition was paid and all my other expenses. And something had to give and it was my grade. So I did horrible, horrible in college, but I did manage to graduate and that was what I was going for. So once I graduated that it did help me to get a good job
00:03:08
Speaker
It was at minimum wage and I felt great about that. I ended up getting married shortly after I graduated from high school. I remember my first job at High College was working at Walmart headquarters in Bentonville, Arkansas. And I got married after I moved there, but then my husband and I ended up moving to Ohio. And as soon as I got to Ohio, I found out I was pregnant.
00:03:36
Speaker
So I had my daughter, we had the big happy family, everything was great for about 12 years. And then I ended up getting a divorce. And so that changed the trajectory of everything. What I thought was a shared journey ended up being a solo project that made me think about how do I make sure
00:03:59
Speaker
I'm not going to be in poverty again, that I'm going to be okay, that my daughter is going to be okay. So all those things are running through my head. And that was kind of the real pivotal moment that made me say, I need to, what do I, what can I do to make sure things are going to be okay for us? And, you know, there were some things that happened at the time of, you know, getting the divorce settled and everything that really stuck with me. But the main thing I got out of that was that,
00:04:26
Speaker
I need to learn about finances. I need to make sure me and my daughter are going to be okay. And then I was, you know, off to that journey of just, I really had to start with basic financial literacy just to get going before I went to all of these, went through all of these other phases. So, so that kind of, you know, got me started in the whole personal finance realm. How did your experiences as a single mother shape your approach to personal finance?
Financial Strategies and Growth
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah, it was a bit different than what I was seeing, especially in the personal finance space or in the fire space, financial independence retire early, because, you know, a lot of the people and the well-known names of things in the media was, you know, two high earning adults that were in tech or engineer, whatever, or, you know, single person that didn't have kids.
00:05:19
Speaker
So for me, now I was able to take away a few things from people that shared their story and I always appreciated it. But I knew for me as a single mom, I had to think about what were my superpowers? What were things that were helpful? And it just started with just learning about personal finance, things like
00:05:40
Speaker
knowing about my 401k and why it was important to invest in that, what the stock market was, what could I expect for my money to do when it was invested. And I would say one of the biggest things was trying to make sure that what I was learning was also passed on to my daughter.
00:06:03
Speaker
And at the time, my top priorities was having a good steady job to pay our bills and to be able to still have time to spend with my daughter. Those were the main priorities. So I wasn't trying to climb the corporate ladder. I wasn't trying to work the side job and things like that. I just tried to focus on doing more with the money that I had because that meant that I at least had a little bit more time to spend with my daughter.
00:06:31
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit more about that? What did it look like to do more with the money that you had? And you mentioned you had some superpowers, so how did you optimize those superpowers?
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, well, so for me, so at the, I mentioned at the time of my divorce, that really woke me up. And the most memorable thing was when we looked at the 401k accounts, our retirement accounts. So basically what happens is all the money goes into one pile and you split it down the money middle. And we didn't really have a whole lot. Like the house, there was probably no equity in the house. We didn't have much of anything else. So it was the 401ks.
00:07:10
Speaker
And when I looked at my 401k balance at the time of the divorce, it was $20,000. Now, I'm in my 30s at the time. His 401k was $120,000. So that was $100,000 disparity. So that was the big light bulb for me. I felt so financially ignorant when I saw that. So that's when I really said I need to get this together. And one of the first things I did
00:07:34
Speaker
I thought about you know what did i want to do what did i like because now you know my daughter's with her dad every other weekend so i have that time at least that i can do something that. I enjoy and that that's kind of a hard question to ask yourself you know when you're so used to doing everything with your family so.
00:07:55
Speaker
I was very interested in the stock market, which is kind of a different place to start learning about money and personal finance, but that was sort of the starting point for me. And so much of this personal finance stuff is intertwined. So once you find one thread, it all kind of comes back together. So I found an investment club and it was part of a nonprofit organization called Better Investing. And I was talking to a friend of mine at work and she said, oh, um,
00:08:19
Speaker
I'm a part of this organization. I'm sure there's one in your area. You should Google it. So I started observing the investment club. I thought it was pretty cool because they were talking about, you know, individual companies and leadership and the growth and revenue and all these cool things. And they were just so smart. And I ended up joining that investment club. And yeah, we pulled money and things like that, but it was mostly about education and
00:08:45
Speaker
I finally learned that you can't save your way to wealth. You have to grow it through investing. And so as I'm learning about investing in the stock market, the light bulbs start going off. So I'm thinking, why am I not maxing out my 401k? Why am I not maxing out my Roth IRA? Why am I not maxing out my health savings account? I could invest in my health savings account.
00:09:12
Speaker
Even though I wasn't making a huge amount of money, if I was putting money in these tax advantage accounts, the traditional at least would allow me to reduce my taxable income.
Achieving Financial Milestones
00:09:23
Speaker
I got to file head of household and I wasn't afraid of the stock market anymore.
00:09:31
Speaker
Before I was and I didn't even know what I was doing So now with the money that I had I'm investing it and it's growing and I'm feeling pretty good about it And I was I was 38 before I did my first net worth statement, but that was very empowering to me that's like the most powerful exercise I'd ever done around my money and finances and seeing your net worth grow whether it's through paying down debt getting more equity in your home and
00:09:58
Speaker
or your investments making more money or you putting more money to work, it's just very powerful to see that you are moving the needle, that you are making a difference. So those are some of the things that I kind of felt was definitely to my advantage.
00:10:17
Speaker
about how much time passed between you discovering that you wanted to make a change or wanted to learn, and then you actually feeling comfortable with your financial knowledge and what that net worth trend was looking like.
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah, so let's look at the timeline. So I got divorced around 2003, 2004. My daughter was about nine years old at the time. And for anyone that's gone through a divorce, David, I know you have to. It could be devastating, not only on your finances, but emotionally. And you're trying to pull it all together because you're making this big life shift now, especially if you have a kid, and I had a kid.
00:10:59
Speaker
It took me about two years to really get to the place where I was ready to start doing something. That's why I never minimize or overlook the emotional and the psychological side of your money. Nothing was gonna happen until I got my head right and I worked out the mindset. So that's when I joined the investment club. And I would say I was in the, so I joined the investment club around 2007, okay?
00:11:26
Speaker
And that turned out to be a pretty good time because I was just getting started. So then 2008 hit, and that's when I really started doing my heavy lifting. At that point, I think that's when I started investing in all the accounts. And the one account that I had no idea that I could even invest in initially was that health savings account. And that's one thing I call my superpower, just because me and my daughter, it worked great for us. It's not for everybody, but we're on a high deductible health plan because we're very low consumers of healthcare.
00:11:55
Speaker
We went for our wellness visits every year and that was about it. And so I decided I wanted to use that money for long term so I would max out the family max every year and it was invested in just like a total stock market index fund. So this is 2008 and a lot of my net worth growth
00:12:16
Speaker
was attributed to how well the market did from 2008 on. So you got 2008, 2009, 2010, you go all the way up to, my daughter graduated from college in 2013. So that's when I saw the biggest lift. Now I didn't fully reach financial independence or retire until maybe around 2016.
00:12:41
Speaker
So I continued with that growing. And here was the pivotal moment with the finances and the net worth growth, was that when I was earning more money on my investments than I was bringing home with my paycheck, that was huge for me to say, oh my gosh, my money's just sitting here. I had it invested, of course, in the stock market, but that's growing way faster than the paycheck I'm bringing home.
00:13:06
Speaker
So then I started, you know, organizing things a little bit better to make some projections to say, Hmm, maybe I can step away a little bit early or how soon will I be able to get to a million dollars or to get to my fire number? So all the, all the bells and whistles, you know, started going off for me at that point. I love that you talked about how you don't ignore the psychological part of money.
00:13:30
Speaker
because there are so many things going on. And you mentioned earlier that it's different. You hear all these stories, but as a single parent, it's different. What advice would you give to single parents? What makes it unique and what are those challenges that they might be facing?
00:13:45
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much, Dusty, for asking that question. I never get asked that question, but it's so important, and it's very different. You don't have that second parent to sort of cosign on what you're doing. So even aside from the money part of it, it's the dynamics with your kid. Typically, if you've got both parents, you're both kind of standing together. And when you're divorced, you don't always agree on things. And the kid is in two households and all that.
00:14:13
Speaker
So raising one kid, it was just hard to juggle
00:14:21
Speaker
work and take care of her and know that everything was on me. Like in a lot of marriages, or if you've got the family and the household together, and
Challenges of Single Parenthood
00:14:33
Speaker
of course I had this for 12 years, but you're able to divide and conquer. You can split responsibilities. So for instance, my husband, he was one that mowed the lawn and took care of things around the house. And I did the other things, maybe more of the inside stuff.
00:14:50
Speaker
Well, now that it's just me, I either have to mow the law myself or I have to pay somebody to do it. So every decision was all on me. And, you know, depending on how you look at it, you know, that's a double-edged sword, right? Everything that goes wrong is because of me. Everything that goes right is because of me.
00:15:09
Speaker
So you can't you don't have that other person to sort of either blame them or whatever. So that was always hard. Just wondering if I did the right thing. And I'll say this to, you know, growing up in poverty and a lot of what I was exposed to was a lot of single parents, divorce and things like that. And for me, it was
00:15:31
Speaker
really a big deal to have a nice family unit for my daughter. I wanted that because I didn't really see that growing up. So I wanted to give her the two-parent household and a happy family, but that's not how it always works out. And that's not a decision only you can make. You've got two people in that picture. So I
00:15:54
Speaker
didn't like that I wasn't able to give that to her her entire childhood. Now since then you know we've evolved and she's grown up she's in her 20s now you start to understand that you know not every situation works out and um
00:16:09
Speaker
You know, I hated that I didn't give that to her, but I gave her everything else that I could give her. And I know that she she sees that now as a 20 something year old kind of, you know, the struggle that I had trying to juggle so much and juggling so much by myself. So so, yeah, I appreciate that question because there was definitely some challenges that, you know, you don't have to worry as much about, you know, when you are, you know, married and, you know, got your kid together and everything's like one big happy family.
Advocacy for Financial Literacy
00:16:38
Speaker
You can definitely hear your passion and your voice for not only personal finance knowledge, but the impact that I can have on an individual. And you've already expressed what that impact is in your life. How did you transition from personal finance being personal to you, to advocating personal finance beyond just your family? And
00:17:06
Speaker
not only just to the greater masses, but within the Black community. Yeah, for me, of course, as a mom, you know, as soon as we learn something, we want to share it with our kids. So that was number one. And that's when, you know, I wrote the book Money Letters to My Daughter. You know, part of my program in college was journalism. So that was one of my outlets. And what I saw was, you know, fairly easy to get a book, publish yourself at that time.
00:17:30
Speaker
I spent the time to write down everything that I had learned. I tried to make it as entertaining as possible because my daughter was a teenager at the time. I think she was 14 and I just wanted to give her this book as her high school graduation gift. All the things I learned, I just put it in these little letters and I wanted them to be fun and lighthearted and I wanted them to be to the point and easy to understand.
00:17:54
Speaker
So once that book was published, give it to my daughter as a gift, there was a lot of schools that was asking me to come in and talk to their classes. And then I went to every high school in the school district that I grew up in. And I'm like, wow, they're interested in this, interested in having me. And so I turned it into a presentation. I started giving out these $2 bills. And that was one of the ways that I learned how to save money. I just started collecting $2 bills when I was in high school and for years.
00:18:23
Speaker
When I started with high school kids, what that told me was that they were interested in learning as long as you made it entertaining. And in most cases, they weren't getting that entertainment. The teachers are working their butts off, so they're happy to have me and just give them a break.
00:18:42
Speaker
And the kids were like, yay, we have some fun. We're going to get some money. You know, um, I never saw a $2 bill or everybody's got a $2 bill story, right? Um, their grandpa gave them one or they think it's lucky. And so I love to see their eyes light up. I love to see them make the connection because I was somehow able to explain something in a very simple way. And the best part about it with high school and college kids is that they have so much time to get it right.
00:19:12
Speaker
And the reason why I started going back to my old high school and my old school district in my area, in my city, is because I knew that there were so many other people that grew up in poverty just like I did, and they may not have gotten exposed
00:19:32
Speaker
to the things that I was exposed to or the education. I went digging because I had this crazy curiosity about money, but not everybody's gonna do that. So I started thinking, I figured, okay, if me, a little black girl that grew up in poverty in the South,
00:19:47
Speaker
Got a little bit of financial literacy, made it to financial independence, retired early. There's a lot of other people that can do that. I don't see myself as all that special. I believe in the messenger. When it comes to personal finance, we know what the
00:20:05
Speaker
big areas are, we know what the formula is, but who's bringing the message? And who is exposed to that message? So it was so important to me to get this message and this knowledge as much as I can to people that look like me because I'm so familiar with that experience. I mean, I remember I went to this one high school and they wanted me to talk to the whole, in an assembly to the whole school.
00:20:34
Speaker
And I just start out saying, and I knew this was a Title I school. Title I school is where the majority of the students is on some kind of social services and things like that, like on the free lunch program too, like I was.
00:20:50
Speaker
I will start out saying, everybody in this room is probably doing better than me when I was in high school. I was raised by a single dad with six kids, and we were in poverty. We were on the free lunch program. I got hand-me-down clothes, and it was rough. So you guys are probably all doing better than I did growing up. But doing a few things right and learning a few things about money and personal finance,
00:21:18
Speaker
it made all the difference. Cause I want you to follow your dreams. And I see that the money always being the obstacle that keeps you from following your dreams. That's how I see it. Money is kind of that tool or that, that, that, um, you know, disruptor or that roadblock that slows you down from doing the things that you really love. And so I just started that way. And I think immediately they're disarmed. They're like, this girl is just like me. She gets it.
Breaking Financial Barriers
00:21:44
Speaker
Um,
00:21:45
Speaker
And i want their minds to kinda be open that just because you're here now in poverty like i was it doesn't have to stay that way.
00:21:54
Speaker
But when you are trying to get in a better place, you don't know what you don't know. So I just hear a lot of people that will say, this information is out there for everybody. Anybody could get it. We're all on equal footing. Well, not really. If you're not exposed to it and you don't know what you don't know, there's nobody around you even talking about it. You're not working at Corporate America or with maybe other people that might could share this with you. So they're not getting it because they don't know it or they don't know where to get it. They don't know what they need.
00:22:23
Speaker
Or worse, they're getting it from TikTokers who shove very pointed tidbits of very limited financial knowledge to people who just see it in their feed, like investing in crypto, or just the strategy or that strategy. And it's completely, even if there is some accuracy to it, it's not the whole story. It's just in a 30-second clip.
00:22:48
Speaker
I just want to make sure that the audience heard a couple of things they said and heard them loud and clear. One is the messenger, right? Like everyone needs this message. And a lot of times it's not being delivered because we're told not to talk about money. Money is awkward. It's uncomfortable. So you need to be a messenger. Anyone that's listening to this, you can be a messenger. You can start that conversation. And yeah, you do want to see somebody that looks like you that has similar experiences that can relate because that's,
00:23:17
Speaker
how you know that it's possible. That's how you know that you can maybe do it. And I also, I love to say this, but the messenger matters in terms of you hear the message differently from different people. So I can look at you, Jackie, and I can hear it loud and clear. And if David tells me the same thing, I might be like, you know, maybe, maybe not. That's how she responds to everything I say. True.
00:23:43
Speaker
But also, you know, you think about that in your real life. If your parent tells you something or your sibling, that's different than if you see someone else that you like, respect, trust, have a different relationship with. So I want to camp on that. And then the other thing that I love and I don't think we think about this enough is you don't know what you don't know. And also you don't know what you know.
Inspiring Others through Financial Education
00:24:05
Speaker
So if you've grown up in poverty and that is what you know, you need someone else to open up that door. If you,
00:24:13
Speaker
You know, I grew up with a cash envelope system. My mom always had cash in an envelope for groceries and she had a calculator and that's how we went to the store. I just thought that's how you budgeted. I had no idea that there was another way until someone showed me that yes, hey, things can be different. So I really want to make sure that, you know, if you are going to go out there and be the messenger, you have to think about,
00:24:38
Speaker
what someone might know what's normal to them and how that's different than what's normal to you so that you can have that story. You know, cause like talking to you, Jackie, I wrote down so many things about what is it like for my single friends that our parents, what are they dealing with? How are they teaching their kids? Could I connect them to you so that they have an idea? And also what are, what are the pivotal moments that have made a difference in my life? And then how can you pay that forward? Because you were talking about that pivotal moment where you saw how much you're,
00:25:08
Speaker
ex-husband had in his retirement account versus you. And then that's this aha moment. And that's what makes you take action. You're talking to high schoolers. They're in those pivotal moments where they're like, Oh, you know, I can't wait to get out of here. Or what's next? Or, you know, what is that thing? So I love those lessons that you've been sharing with us.
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah, I like when you mentioned like the high schoolers and like where they're at. And it reminds me, I worked with this one high school locally, and the teacher, her name is Ms. White. I go in there a couple times a year and talk about personal finance, or we play, you know, I don't even say talk about personal finance.
00:25:44
Speaker
We play games about money and we talk about anything that's on their mind and I'll have a little prepared thing and of course, give away a bunch of $2 bills. So I'm going in there next week and we're texting back and forth and texting back and forth with Ms. White. And she was like, yeah, I really want you to come in. And the classes that she is over, these are like credit recovery classes where they don't have enough credits to graduate, so they're trying to catch up.
00:26:14
Speaker
She was texting me, she's like, yeah, I really need you to come in. They want to talk about investing because they're all trading on Cash App. Which is totally fine, okay? Because that's something, right? So here's the thing, you got to meet them where they're at. I can't go in there and start talking about budgeting when their minds is on trading on Cash App. So that's where I'm going to start.
00:26:40
Speaker
And like I said, all this stuff is intertwined. I can get them back to the budgeting. I could get them back to, well, where do you get the money to invest in Cash App? Can you show me what you're investing? You have to be interested. It's like, to me, let's say if someone is investing in crypto or something we think is crazy.
00:26:59
Speaker
I learned that you can't totally discount that because you're giving up an opportunity to have a good conversation with, excuse me, with that kid. So you might not be supporting what they're doing, but they're talking about money.
00:27:15
Speaker
They're willing to be open about it so engage in the conversation and maybe ask them some questions and that and that way you get them thinking and the worst that could happen to a kid that's investing on cash app or in crypto whatever.
00:27:30
Speaker
You know what? They can't be making so much money. If they're talking about investing in crypto and cash app, you know how much money they probably have? A couple hundred dollars. Okay, so what's the worst case? They lose a couple hundred dollars. Okay, it's an 18-year-old. They lose $200. So what? Usually, there's a big lesson in that, and it's better that they learn when it's $200 than $200,000. So I engage in those conversations about money no matter where they're at, because I can bring it full circle.
00:27:56
Speaker
and start to have a really, really productive dialogue with them because there's so many areas of investing that tie back to general personal finance.
Recognition and Gratitude
00:28:07
Speaker
What is your most notable success story from you being an advocate, whether it be an individual or a group? So this is gonna be kind of funny. So this is an individual and sometimes I do little media appearances, whatever. I don't know how they even find me because I'm not even that active on social media, but I did get a pretty big one a couple of years ago on the Rachel Ray Show. So it was this producer that had reached out to me. I think her name was Rebecca.
00:28:33
Speaker
and she wanted she said yeah we've always wanted to do a segment on investing and we just like the way you explain things so either they got my book or they saw something on social media or one of my videos or whatever so as i'm talking to her and we're trying to lay something out
00:28:50
Speaker
She was wanting to talk about 401Ks and what you're investing in. As I'm preparing for this interview set up with her, we get done and I'll say, well, have you checked your 401K? Do you know what's in your 401K? We started talking about her 401K. The next time we talked,
00:29:11
Speaker
Oh you know what she emailed me the very next day she went into a 401k and she looked at her investments to make sure she knew what she invested in she made some changes based on what her goals were you know i wasn't giving her advice or anything just giving her enough curiosity about her own finances because no matter who you're dealing with in life
00:29:31
Speaker
Money touches everybody. So if I'm talking to a reporter, a writer, interview, or anyone, they got funny answers too. So if we're talking about it, I'm always going to take the extra step and ask them how things are going for them. I love that. I think that that's what this is all about, right? Is meeting people where they are, having those conversations, pulling the thread just a little bit further. All right, Jackie. Well, thank you so much for everything that you do as far as one, being a good friend.
00:30:01
Speaker
It's always great to talk to you, whether it's in a face-to-face or via podcast or via telephone. You've always got a very bright, positive energy, and I know that helps you send your message. And for that, I appreciate you, and thank you so much for being here on the show. All right, David, it was my pleasure anytime. Thank you all for listening.