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Episode 132: Maybe Jay Can Make Sense of This...
120 Plays4 years ago
Hello, Podwalkers, and welcome back to another episode of the Goblin Lore Podcast! Recently the hosts have spent many weeks trying to learn everything they could about our friend Jay Annelli's book on the Legends of the Multiverse. So in spite of slander against Nicol Bolas, and despite our better judgment, we went out and kidnapped... we mean "persuaded" Jay to come on. While part 1 focuses a bit more on the book, it also discusses the best Creature Type Around!! Also join us next week when we get into disaster planning, emergency management and figure out how those relate to a full time gig doing Magic!
Again we would like to state that Black Lives Matter (with a link to where you can offer support both monetary and not).
We also are proud to have partnered with Grinding Coffee Co a black, LGBT+ affiliated and owned, coffee business that is aimed at providing coffee to gamers. You can read more about their mission here. You can use our partner code for discounted coffee!
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As promised, we plan to keep these Mental Health Links available moving forward too. For general Mental Health the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) has great resources for people struggling with mental health concerns as well as their families. We also want to draw attention to this article on stigma from NAMI's site.
If you’re thinking about suicide or just need someone to talk to right now, you can get support from any of the resources below.
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-TALK (8255)
- Veteran's can Press 1 at anytime to be taken to the Veteran's Line
- Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741-741
- International suicide hotlines: A comprehensive resource list for people outside the US.
- IMAlive: Click Chat Now to access a live online network of volunteers through instant messaging.
- TrevorLifeline, TrevorChat, and TrevorText (LGBTQ+ crisis support): 1-866-488-7386, or text “Trevor” to 1-202-304-1200
- Trans Lifeline (US): (877) 565-8860
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You can find the hosts on Twitter: Hobbes Q. at @HobbesQ, and Alex Newman at @Mel_Chronicler. Send questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to @GoblinLorePod on Twitter or GoblinLorePodcast@gmail.com.
Opening and closing music by Wintergatan (@wintergatan). Logo art by Steven Raffael (@SteveRaffle).
Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast, and a part of their growing Vorthos content – as well as Magic content of all kinds. Check them out at hipstersofthecoast.com.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Announcement
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello Podwalkers and welcome to another episode of the Goblin Lore podcast. Tonight we have a very exciting guest, someone we've been trying to schedule to get on the show for a while and it's just been trouble.
00:00:43
Speaker
Just schedules and things didn't line up, but now they've finally lined up and we're here. That felt like a really weird way to start the episode. So I'm just going to, in our fashion. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, we don't think it's going to take us quite a while to get through all of Jay's honorifics, but we'll make time for that in this episode today.
Ideal Vacation Spots in Magic's Multiverse
00:01:14
Speaker
Why don't I just introduce myself real quick because then I can get out of the way and let Jay talk about all the great stuff he's been doing in magic and we can then kind of get into the episode. And the Just Okay stuff I've been doing in magic. That as well. If we left out the Just Okay stuff that we do, the show would be not 129 episodes long.
00:01:33
Speaker
So, you're joined today by Jay.
00:01:38
Speaker
be much much shorter Alex Newman found on Twitter at Mel underscore chronicler pronouns are he him and for an opening question we're just gonna do you know what's a what's a plane in the magic multiverse that you'd like to visit on vacation and having done
00:01:57
Speaker
My prep for this episode being that question occurring to me about two hours ago, I'm going to go with Theros because I think the plane looks really nice. There's some cool cultures, but there's some really nice beaches. There's some good geography to hang out. It doesn't seem super threatening. We're right now in the magic releases in a plane that
00:02:24
Speaker
is cool that I don't want to visit. Like I would, vacations on Innistrad do not seem fun for me. That may be for other people and that's totally fair, not for me.
00:02:36
Speaker
I just like, it's not a big, like, you know, Ashiok may be somewhere, but it's not. It's a peaceful place. Random tourists there for a week, maybe a weekend. I'm not worried about Ashiok. Okay. I'd be worried about, you know, like everything. Like I'd be worried about Innistrad. Like that's just how that place works. You know, just random tourists, not super worried about
00:03:03
Speaker
I feel like their pumpkin spice game has to be really on point right about now though, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the Strad probably is the pumpkin spice capital of the magic multiverse, but it's like, I don't know, going there and they keep dying, but like no one ever gets back to give the bad reviews. So people just keep coming.
00:03:24
Speaker
See, I was just thinking this was more of like a zombie situation. Like you don't actually want to know what is being used to fertilize or grow the pumpkins, but it's really good. It's really good. You just don't ask those questions. Yeah, I feel like the Simic might give them a run for their money, but probably even the Simic science can't beat what Innistrad can do for pumpkin spice.
00:03:49
Speaker
I mean, it'd be like pumpkin crab spice, which probably has its own appeal, but is kind of a different thing at that point.
Convention Memories and City Navigation
00:03:58
Speaker
A different thing at that point? Sounds like something we'd have in Maryland here, because that would be like, we'd just add Old Bay to it, and it would be perfect, because we'd put our Old Bay and everything in Maryland.
00:04:14
Speaker
I do miss going back out to Maryland, so there's an anime convention that was in Baltimore, moved to DC recently, that I've gone to for a number of years, because a friend of mine is in Maryland, is in Baltimore.
00:04:28
Speaker
And I used to tell them, like, number one reason I always go out there was to hang out with him and some other friends from the Northeast area who we'd meet there. People I met playing World of Warcraft actually just playing online. My second reason, like the convention, that was always fun, and then number three was crab. Getting fresh crab. I thought you were going to say that it was Old Bay.
00:04:48
Speaker
No, for someone in Minnesota, getting that fresh crab is great, and I miss it. Not the conventions or two years because of this. Yeah.
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah, Otacon, I went to, I assume that's what you're talking about. Not the other one. Otacon, I went to in the 2000s and then was annoyed by from 2010 until 2018 because I worked in the city and had to get past the convention center to go home.
00:05:19
Speaker
And I was like, the first year I was like, oh, hey, look, it's my people. And the second year I'm like, just get out of the street, like get that big sword and get out of the street. I want to go home.
Dream Visit to the Meditation Realm
00:05:29
Speaker
Yeah, I did grad school in San Diego, so. Oh, good Lord. Yeah, I'm so sorry.
00:05:37
Speaker
Well, hi, I'm Hobskew, pronouns he him, I can be found on Twitter at Hobskew. And I would visit the meditation realm, because I just need somewhere kind of peaceful to relax for a little bit. You know, just kind of chill. You know, there's probably not a lot going on there right now. Would you bring a cake with a file baked into it, perhaps? I mean,
00:06:04
Speaker
I might bring a gift you don't show up to a realm with elder dragons without bringing a gift. That's fair. That goes back into fantasy history. One of the best ways to deal with dragons without being eaten is gifts is gifts. So I'm not showing up there empty handed now, you know, and there's there's two brothers, I guess that live there now, which is a little weird. But I would still bring something for both of them. Yeah, I definitely would bring something for both of them.
00:06:33
Speaker
How codependent is that, though? Come on. We're both adults. Move out. Well, you move out. Well, for a really long time, there really was only one person living there. It's awkward right now. Squeeze got it handled. We already have a plan. Squeeze is going to spark and then accidentally release Nicol Bolas, and I am here for it. If that's not possible, then I don't like Magic the Gathering anymore.
00:07:02
Speaker
I mean, things are always possible. Whether or not they're likely is a very different question. Come on. Squeeze been around for so long, the poor goblin needs something. Sparking's what he's got. And he needs a buddy. He needs a buddy.
00:07:25
Speaker
But yes, I would go there because I'm sure it's lovely and peaceful. There are the pools of becoming. I would just kind of relax in them and I think it would be great. And if I happen to let loose Nicol Bolas, it's not the end of the world.
00:07:39
Speaker
Not the end of that world, at least. And hey, welcome to our guest. Oh,
Choosing Kaladesh for Vacation
00:07:49
Speaker
hi. I'm J and Ellie, which we have now gone seven minutes into this podcast before I have introduced myself here. My pronouns are he him because I heard you all given that one. So and I would pick Kaladesh.
00:08:05
Speaker
uh just because like it is a plane i feel like i am very unlikely to be killed on for like i could actually go there for vacation and like not have to worry about anything this is a this is a serious answer like i i would think of a lot of places like fiora might be cool but i feel like i'd also get murdered in someone else's like conspiracy plot
00:08:28
Speaker
No, Kaladesh, I'm going to go. I'm going to have the street food because it's a fantasy world and I can eat the street food there. Whereas if we went to India, my wife would not let me eat the street food. She said, no, I'm too white for that. Don't don't eat that. Like. So she's she's I can't even handle that anymore. Hmm.
00:08:55
Speaker
And it's just beautiful, right? There's a lot of modern conveniences. It's a very pretty place. Unlike the Izzet or someone else, none of these contraptions are really going to explode and kill me because no matter what you say about the consulate, at least they quality check these things. It's safety regulations.
00:09:20
Speaker
Yeah, whereas like if I go to someplace like Ravnica, I'm going to step on an elevator and it's just going to squash me for no apparent or explode for no apparent. There's no there's nothing explosive in it, but it's going to blow up for no apparent reason. You just you don't have a lot of faith in the Azorius is what I'm hearing to know the same regulation. Who would? That's that's very fair.
00:09:43
Speaker
I mean, there's a lot of levels to Ravnica. There's Azorius has to set up the regulations.
Magic Stories and the Lack of Leisure
00:09:48
Speaker
The Isit have to follow them. The Rakdos have to not have sabotaged it after the regulations were followed. You've got to get through a few things before.
00:09:59
Speaker
you get there. I really appreciate that both of you were actually thinking of nice beautiful places to visit on vacation. That's nice. I also like that it's preface with also where you're not going to die randomly. Not just like, yeah, this would be an amazing vacation spot, but like I'm also going to survive. Kaladesh would also be that though, like it's a beautiful vacation spot and I'm unlikely to be killed horribly while I'm there by some rampaging monster.
00:10:25
Speaker
I mean, and that's the thing that you kind of have to think about in some of these love fantasy, I love sci fi, there's all sorts of different properties that I really enjoy in different medium, with video games and books and games like magic, but it's like, some of these places, it's fun to visit in the game, it's fun to visit in a book, it would not be fun to visit.
00:10:48
Speaker
There's a good portion of them that kind of fit that category, at least for me. That's fair. We also think of magic story and how story works to be interesting. Almost every plane we're visiting is during a period of either conflict or mystery. This was Hunter Pence and I when we talked about sports. We were talking about the idea that sports haven't really shown up outside of battle bond really.
00:11:14
Speaker
Um, but like this idea of just sports going on is because sports is leisure sports is recreation And we don't get to see the planes usually in those states Because that doesn't make for a good story That's
Explaining the Moon to Children
00:11:28
Speaker
right. I mean we're if you look at Innistrad right now We haven't been to Innistrad in two years in universe and things have been pretty mild in those two years Other than things getting slightly cold, you know, we come back when the action is happening. Mm-hmm
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah, you got to jump back in like right when Oh, well, the moon's still there at least. Which is an important thing to keep track of. It's actually really funny. I was thinking about this tonight because my daughter, Gwen has become really obsessed with the moon and like being able to see it, you know, usually it's been
00:12:02
Speaker
Now that we're entering fall, she could see it like in the mornings when she was getting up for school, but then it went to a new moon and trying to explain phases to a two and a half year old. But like, she was really excited and was like, we found the moon, it was lost. And if the moon's lost, it's probably a much bigger ideal, I guess.
00:12:21
Speaker
I do love how much the moon just blows children's minds because Arjun is, you know, he's five. But if we're walking, I'm walking him to school one day and he sees the moon out in the morning. He's like, daddy, the moon. I just think he does. Yeah, it sure is, buddy. It sure is.
00:12:39
Speaker
Which gets really upset when I have to tell her like you can't see it right now Like it shows us like big where's the moon? No, like it's it's sunny in the middle of the day, honey Like I I don't really have the basis to explain this to you Yeah, right now. It's just you know nighttime is for the moon Daytime is for the Sun and if they like crossover at all. It's what is happening right now. I
00:13:04
Speaker
You know, like I had to work really hard earlier this year to convince my son that day and night are not equal at all times throughout the year. Ooh. Ooh. Apparently someone said that to him in like daycare. I just could not dislodge it. You know.
00:13:22
Speaker
day cares we are finding to be very interesting for these reasons because all of a sudden we started learning about monsters in Gwen's room which every monster that's been in any book we've ever read her has been like friendly and like you know like this is the love monster nobody likes him because he's monstrous and then she's scared of monsters now we're like why
00:13:44
Speaker
Um, and, and all we can figure is daycare. So yep. So we
Children's Fear of Monsters
00:13:50
Speaker
had, um, Arjun had a buddy over and the buddy was talking about, um, monsters and things. And apparently he had a lot of phobias. And so Arjun up to that point had zero fear of monsters. And then he suddenly had a fear of monsters and is coming in a room. It's like,
00:14:05
Speaker
Mommy, daddy, you know, like, uh, uh, uh, monsters are, are monsters real? My friend keeps saying, monsters are real. And we're like, no, monsters aren't real. They're fake. And like, even if they were real, daddy would come in and he would brutally kill them.
00:14:23
Speaker
All right. It wouldn't be it wouldn't be an issue like I have. I don't remember what I showed him. I think I had like a toy plastic sword in the room or something. Take this. This is a magical monster killing blade.
00:14:37
Speaker
And he's like, oh, okay. And he slept fine after that. So we had the hilarity if we moved her rooms and all of a sudden when we moved rooms, the monsters didn't. And she seems to be okay with this, even though she could say, that will be the baby's room. But like, it's not hers. It's not her room. It's the baby, the monsters are the baby's problem now, honestly. Right, right.
00:14:58
Speaker
And for a while, we were asking her what to name the baby and she said monster. So I don't really know what's going on. It was just really funny. We're like, yeah, no, any monsters in your new room. Nope. They stayed in the old one. Okay. Are they in there? Yep. That's baby's room.
00:15:16
Speaker
Wow, kid. So we were asking Arjun to suggest names to us. So we were getting a kitten a couple of months ago. And at the same time, we were still working through baby names. And so we're asking him to come up with baby names and kitten names. And they were frequently like the same, like he wanted to write stuff like he wanted to name his little sister Mittens. We're not rich or white enough to call a kid.
00:15:46
Speaker
And there were a lot of really cool ones. These were characters who needed to be the lead character of an anime. I can't think of any of them off the top of my head, but it's stuff like Cloud.
00:16:03
Speaker
I do. I really like that. Yeah. We, um, we've been calling the baby QE2 and she has determined that that is actually the name. QE2? QE2. Beautiful. Yeah. So yeah. Well, Jay, welcome. You know, we're 15 minutes in and I don't even know what we're talking about today. I mean, we could just talk about parenting for the rest of the podcast. I'd be fine. We could. I feel bad for Alex. I'm sorry, Alex.
00:16:32
Speaker
So we have been going through actually we have gotten around to kind of going through your books and we're starting with the legends and so one of the things that struck us was
00:16:49
Speaker
Some goblin creatures showed up, and it seems like there might be love for goblinkind. And I think that we know this about you. You are a friend of the goblins. We're wondering why. Like, what is it about goblins? Like, I don't think I've ever learned that about you.
Return to Magic and Goblin Fascination
00:17:09
Speaker
So there is the mechanical origin, and then there's why I persistently love those goblins. So I got back into magic.
00:17:22
Speaker
in the late 2000s, right around future site. And of course, my friend and I went to a future site pre-release because what better set to get back into magic than the most complicated set that ever existed.
00:17:41
Speaker
But we after that was Lorwyn and he developed like a zombies deck. So zombies became his thing. And for me, I ended up gravitating towards the goblins, because I guess I opened some goblin at the time. And I had a from way back in the day from Akkadian masks, one of the first legends I opened, which I think this is actually in my in my preface for the book, as I opened a squeak goblin to Bob.
00:18:10
Speaker
Um, and so I had never really been into goblins and that card had just been sitting around. Uh, but it worked nicely with the sacrifice theme. Like, Oh, like I can use these goblins as a resource. And like, it was just like such, it was like a mind blowing moment. Cause I was like, Oh, this isn't a Crete. These aren't creatures I necessarily have to attack and block with. These are creatures I can just create to use as fuel for sacrificing stuff. Like it was like a level up moment in my mind. Um, I haven't really improved beyond that point though.
00:18:42
Speaker
Why am I sacrificing them? What happens when they die? I don't know, but I can do it. How do you improve past goblins? It seems like a good place to get to and then stop. It's true. So then along Lorwyn and Shadowmoor, goblins were a major tribe.
00:18:59
Speaker
So that's when we were really starting to get invested into magic. And I just, I ended up really liking the artwork from Lorwin and just how joyful all of the goblins are throughout all of Lorwin. Yeah, goblins on Lorwin from that whole set, all those sets, like, are very, very cool.
00:19:23
Speaker
So they're so different to the card that really encapsulates goblins for me. And it's the one I really fell in love with has the silliest name mud button torch runner.
00:19:36
Speaker
which is my wife is giggling behind me. She's at her computer in the dead. So Mud Button Torch Runner is like a goblin that basically just exists to get sacrificed or to block and then deal damage when it dies. But it is a picture of the happiest goblin in the entire world running with a torch, hence the name, with like a giant barrel of basically gunpowder attached to its back.
00:20:05
Speaker
And it was just like that like level of kind of slapstick silliness that really sold me. It was funny. It was like a little exaggerated. And I think one of the things that I really like about goblins that this has sold me from then on is goblins are really like they are just unrestrained
00:20:28
Speaker
I guess id basically like they are just like if they want to do something they do it like they're naturally curious it doesn't always end well for them in fact it frequently doesn't end well for them but they just embrace whatever their passion is and go for it and they it ends up being they end up being very funny characters frequently because of that because they frequently don't have the competence required to
00:20:56
Speaker
Uh, they don't have the competence required to follow through on whatever they're experimenting with. Um, but it's, it's, it's hard to explain beyond that. They're just, they're funny. They are like very passionate, um, and unrestrained and they really like explosions. And I also like explosions. So like it's a match made in heaven.
00:21:22
Speaker
Did I lose you two here? No. Oh, sorry. Apparently I silenced my mic as I was plugging my computer in because what I was saying was we've actually sat on the show more than once.
00:21:36
Speaker
that goblins are often wizards' place to be able to inject humor. You know, everything from just the flavor texts. I mean, even on Mud Button Torch Runner, the oil sloshes against his skull as he nears his destination. The frog tosser games and the lighting of the flaming bogart. Like, he's running with this oil and a flame in his hand. Like, there's frogs jumping around. I mean, like, they are the area where a lot of times wizards is able to be silly.
Humor and Slapstick in Goblin Portrayal
00:22:05
Speaker
Um, but as you said, there's also kind of this passion, this like, just willingness to kind of go headfirst into whatever it is that they actually want to do. And yeah.
00:22:18
Speaker
And I hadn't really thought about it that way, but you're right. They're very id. They're very spontaneous. They do what is in their head to do. They think this looks fun. Let's go do it. And that makes them very, very red in that impulsivity.
00:22:38
Speaker
part of red and part of the emotions part of red or they feel that and they just go do it they don't have you know the order of whites usually to make them stop and think or some of the other things it's just go and do um and i think we're seeing obviously in the last five
00:22:56
Speaker
10-ish years. This has changed, but early on, in particular, goblins were very much one of the evil things, like the undead and black. And I think that comes from older fantasy, but now, in the last years, it's not a very recent thing, but relatively recent for the life of the game. It is a place where Wizards has done some goofy things with them, especially in a place like Lorwyn, where Lorwyn is a much lighter set. There isn't really that same level of
00:23:25
Speaker
violence and aggression is in a lot of these sets. Yeah, it's just mainly the racism from the elves. But besides that, outside of that, we're in the chain. Yeah, and that's where Lorwyn turns a few of those things on their head, where you have the black elves or the elves in the color black, like they're the ones who are
00:23:42
Speaker
the most aggressive and violent towards others as opposed to the goblins who definitely mess with other people, but it sounds like it's more prank level things than actual destruction and violence. Well, I mean, Lorwin's where we even get, you know, like, Ward in Red Green and the Red Black version and the Red Black version is an ante. I mean, she's a nurturer. That's, that's, that's what her ability is. She's taken on that black
00:24:09
Speaker
basically bringing things back, like bringing creatures back to your hand. But I mean, it's a very nurturing role that is not what you would think of as a red-black goblin historically.
00:24:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and we've had in Kaladesh, or not, not, not Kaladesh and Ixalan, we had goblins had goblins who had jobs. We had our goblin pirates who were part of the pirate crew. They're part of a crew. They're part of a group. They're doing things. There's, you know, most of them were still mono red and they were probably impulsive and stuff, but they had jobs. They worked with people. They had coworkers and friends and did stuff beyond just, well, those are, those, those are goblins. They raid, they pillage.
00:24:51
Speaker
I mean, as pirates, they kind of do some of that too, but there's more kind of going on to it. It's not just a simple, this is a goblin and in every world, it's just a goblin. It's like there's some big differences between how they work. I think in Khans, we saw some of that on Tarkir as well. Goblins still is part of Mardu, you know, those are more Raiders type people, but we had goblins who were part of the families of these different clans.
Goblins' Resilience and Underestimation
00:25:18
Speaker
And I think goblins are really at their most interesting when they deviate from the kind of Tolkien-esque origins, you know, the green kind of vaguely antisemitic or fully antisemitic, you know, long nose and all that.
00:25:36
Speaker
ugly stuff, and they get into just what represents, as we said before, what represents the pure id of this plane, like on Ixalan, that would be these capuchin goblins who are interested in shiny things and explosions, and so of course they gravitate towards the
00:25:56
Speaker
uh, towards the pirates. Uh, but on, you know, Tarkir, they're like basically little mini yetis, uh, gravitate towards like the snow and one card is just like goblins going sledding like that. So yeah, I always find those the most fun.
00:26:11
Speaker
I think also pulling one of my favorite parts about goblins, which is the communal nature, even in the, you know, going back into the early days of magic, the fact that they belonged to warrens and like the early cards for goblin warrens like showed a family inside of the area. Goblin slide has the goblins like snowflakes are only dangerous in numbers and this idea that they just, they're going to keep coming at you and that there is kind of, I don't know, there is a communal nature to them.
00:26:40
Speaker
And we've kind of hinted at that a little bit, or even talked about, you know, the better representation for goblins tends to be in that realm. And to pull a random couple of threads together in a weird way that I wasn't expecting, you're talking about the the pirates, the goblins on Ixalan, and the pie, you know, that's getting the piracy, that's the pure it is the gold and the explode being attracted to golden explosions, but things there's a lot of
00:27:06
Speaker
fantasy for people in being a pirate, being on the high seas. That whole thing is a fantasy that a lot of people would play out that it looks fun and glamorous and is fun in a removed sense in a game and things, but probably wouldn't be as fun to actually do.
00:27:24
Speaker
There's probably a lot of mad stuff coming with. The reality of being a pirate was probably significantly less interesting than we thought it was. I have not ever in my day-to-day life had to worry about scurvy, so I like that part of my life.
00:27:47
Speaker
I'm trying to think, I feel like there could have been periods in my life where I definitely probably should have worried about scurvy. Yeah, I mean with nerds, you never know. Vitamin C deficiencies can be a real thing. Yeah, that's fair. So looking at the book, you mentioned Squee. Squee's one that we like to talk a lot, but you talked about the fact that, as you said, in your preface, the story that came along with Squee was this idea that
00:28:13
Speaker
Like it was legendary. So first of all, it kind of told you something about that. And then the fact that a goblin could be legendary. I don't think that is something that we've seen as much of as you said, and kind of like the Tolkien and kind of the more of the high fantasy. There's not like the same grandeur that is accepted or seen with goblins. And we've been getting more and more, but Wizards has a history of named goblins that are actually pretty cool.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yep. And I'm curious for your book, how did you choose not to just include them all? Oh, so I mean, for the book itself, for Legends now, keep in mind, I wrote this thing like two and a half years ago now. But when I was working on it, I was working on it with the art director from the franchise team, Daniel Ketchum, at the time.
00:29:10
Speaker
And one of the things we really wanted to highlight was both the human diversity and the creature type diversity of the different planes as we went through the book to try and get a little representation everywhere. I, of course, am obsessed with goblins, so I snuck in as many as I possibly could throughout this whole thing and argued very strongly for many of them.
00:29:36
Speaker
We were we were impressed by the ones that were included like there was a good representation there
00:29:42
Speaker
I don't even remember who's I'm going to be honest with you. I don't remember who's in the book besides like Crenco. And I was I was only halfway sure school. You was in there until you mentioned it just now. Renzo. I do have Grenzo in there. Yes. Yes. Because Grenzo let me mention Doretti. Yeah. Well, I just see that Grenzo is. Grenzo is cool. I don't know. Like Grenzo is it's an example of that red, black. So to me, they set it out.
00:30:12
Speaker
That actually leads to another good point. Another thing I like about goblins are they are frequently underestimated. So goblins aren't actually, despite it being funny, goblins aren't actually stupid. I don't think anywhere in the multiverse are goblins truly actually stupid.
00:30:36
Speaker
It's just they come in most of these settings from mountainous regions, unsettled regions. They don't have book learning too much, although you see in Strixhaven that there's one goblin who keeps trying to apply and gets told, I'm kind of mad about that card. I'm still mad about that. The goblin who gets rejected because he doesn't know how to apply properly, that is a dedicated student you bring up.
00:31:01
Speaker
I was really bothered by the fact that there was no goblin representation in a school of Strixhaven. I'm not gonna lie. I'm still bothered by it. Goblins like Grenzo and Krenko make a lot of use out of the fact that they are so widely underestimated, and there's a lot of, like,
00:31:26
Speaker
fantasy racism against goblins in magic too. That has been backed off significantly, but back in the purifying fire, Chandra had nothing nice to say about goblins as a whole. It's like, this is a person. Don't talk to them about them like that. I have said several times that that is squeeze superpowers, that people underestimate
00:31:52
Speaker
Like that is how Squee did a lot of the stuff he did during the invasion.
Squee's Heroic Character
00:31:57
Speaker
Squee is great. Like I also, I really enjoy Squee too. Squee is fun because he doesn't, like he is scared of everything. He doesn't really know too well what he's doing, at least at the time.
00:32:18
Speaker
Uh, but he still does his best for his friends, like throughout and ends up like saving the day frequently throughout the story because he's underestimated. And then he eventually starts to find like, you know, he didn't, he doesn't think he's good at anything. The crew doesn't think he's good at anything, but it turns out he's good at a lot of things, but especially firing cannons. Uh, I think, I think it's a flavor text. Was that zap?
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah, they've been having him like they've been having him mop the decks and stuff. You know, he's he's the the cabin boy because they didn't think he could do anything. But as soon as he's like given real responsibilities, he saves the day on multiple occasions. Yeah. And he's always great. All this time, I thought Squee was useless. Chuckle to say who knew he'd be such a good shot. And it's like him shooting stuff off the bow of the weather light.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, like Squeak I think to us has been interesting because he's still around. I mean I think this is where we can talk about frustration from returning to Dominaria because we literally had a character that got a card that's just…
00:33:34
Speaker
that there was no story with, who's like now one of the older beings around on Dominaria, right? Like, I mean, I don't know.
00:33:47
Speaker
Dominaria was hard. I should be clear, Dominaria was probably the last set before I started contracting with Wizards, even a little bit at the time.
Challenges of Integrating Past Characters
00:34:04
Speaker
But looking back then, I was like, man, we could have made so much more use of stuff. Looking at it now,
00:34:12
Speaker
I can understand the hesitance to get into too much history with certain characters, especially as you got to the end of the Dominaria story, where it starts to feel like they're just name dropping people to try and include more legends in there. And it'd be nice to get infinite story. But I think the realities of a business, it just wasn't going to happen.
00:34:40
Speaker
Uh, that said, there is Dominaria United coming up and Squeak did not die in Dominaria. So the possibilities exist. As far as we know, he can't, still can't die. So, I mean, his last name is Squeak the Immortal. I think to me it was the, the, the role that Slimefoot ended up playing, I guess is kind of, whereas like,
00:35:02
Speaker
You know, Squee being back on the weather light was something that felt to me that it wasn't going to, it didn't need to be just name dropping that it actually made a lot of sense, but you know, that's yeah. I just, I really love Squee and I've always struggled with almost the lack of story that we get about Squee.
00:35:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think so I also I really love older characters and I really love when we can make space to like bring back old characters. I think one of the things I have learned, especially like working with creative teams on the wizard side,
00:35:45
Speaker
is that there's also a lot of value to the newer characters and making sure we give space to them. Like I get what you're saying about Slimefoot, but Slimefoot was such a runaway popular character that like
00:36:01
Speaker
Right. Like, you know, it's if Slimefoot had like stunk. Well, he probably does. But, you know, like like if you hand if Slimefoot had panned like I could absolutely see what you're saying. But I think Martha Wells, especially, is such a great author that she just took this character in an also funny, unique saves the day with his friends direction. So, I mean, there's a lot of parallels, but we got a cool new character.
00:36:31
Speaker
Uh, out of the deal as well. And I think the other thing I have to remember is like, ain't nobody like, there's no one in the creative teams, uh, in any of the creative, like no, there's no one in franchise. There's no one in, um, on the, the studio X side that, uh, was working during the weather light saga anymore.
00:36:54
Speaker
Like I'm not sure I think the longest tenured member of any creative team right now is, um,
00:37:04
Speaker
at least on the internal wizard side, I believe, is it Doug Beyer? Because he was on creative text during the original Mirrodin, which I learned when rereading some older articles. If you think about it like that, the longest tenure
00:37:28
Speaker
is someone who is who is basically only doing creative text. I think he was still working on the Web at the time then. And so like asking people to go back and write characters that they had nothing to do with in the first place can also be difficult. And what I mean by that is it's like. We want these classic tropes and beats and things and characters from the past.
00:37:58
Speaker
but we've got like new creative talent that could create new cool new things that we would also like that don't require like a lot of background reading because I think that's one of the big concerns as well is like how much do we want people to have to read 12 novels from Magic's past to like fully appreciate these characters
00:38:23
Speaker
And it's a hard balance. I agree. I am always leaning on the bring back as much as possible, make as much old connections and references as you can, but try and frame it in a way that's understandable for newer folks jumping in on a new comic run. You might not know the full history of Dr. Octopus, but you'll get the gist really quickly as you're running through Amazing Spider-Man or something.
00:38:50
Speaker
And maybe it is because, you know, not knowing what's going to be going from here, you know, but it's seeing all of these other characters that have gotten even from Felby to, you know, Nevinrel to like see kind of these like places that are showing up in supplemental sets and then just feeling like,
00:39:09
Speaker
to me squeeze the interesting because we have a character that literally can't die in magic but isn't a planeswalker so like there actually are a few of them on dominaria okay are there and well joyra is ageless yeah joyra joda joda yeah and so three of them got cards on the set and two of them had story
00:39:34
Speaker
And I'm sorry to interrupt you there, but and I've been thinking about this as you're talking Jane, it's a really good point because you think about from Dominaria set before that came out the last time we visited Dominaria was again to bring back another thread from previous recording.
00:39:49
Speaker
which I didn't intend the time spiral block and the time spiral block for and franchise people like myself who started playing the game very early was a lot of fun but for people who hadn't it was a nightmare because it really wasn't great it was not good for onboarding it was there was so many references to things that people didn't get there were so many mechanics and it's like
00:40:10
Speaker
That is why I think they played safer in Dominaria. And this set did a good job of, here's some references without flooding, you know, overwhelming people who don't know the references. And here's some mechanical things that reference a little bit, but aren't.
00:40:29
Speaker
Like actual reference, like there was a card that basically has regenerate, but doesn't actually have regenerate if I remember correctly. Um, it was, it was a skeleton that you can give it indestructible, but then it taps it or something. So it's functions.
00:40:44
Speaker
Functionally similar. Yeah. Yeah, so that that's a good point that that and also It's a good point that the teams change over time It's easy with with games and companies for fans to look at the company as a monolith and think well Wizards has done this for this whole time It's like well, but Wizards hasn't done anything. It's it's it's not even the same I was gonna say it's a building but it's not even been the same building that they used to be in it's it's a collection of people and that collection changes over time and
00:41:12
Speaker
me being the contrarian that I'm gonna continue to be. Squee did, Squee won, you know, Mark Rosewater's and that is a, it is obviously the people who are going to be voting in that are going to be more enfranchised players. But Squee like handily ran away with the head-to-head goblins with a lot of votes like he
00:41:40
Speaker
I think even Wizards underestimates him. His power is too powerful. I mean, you know, it does fit. It's just I, I guess it's for me, I find taking my bias aside if I can, and that's not fully possible. We all know that just we can't get rid of our biases.
00:42:01
Speaker
I actually think that it's just this really interesting to have a goblin who literally was killed over and over again and is still like, it's like, it's a story of resiliency. Like Squeak is a very, very good representation of resiliency. And it's almost like wanting to know what is, and this is my selfish piece. It's like, what has Squeak been up to? And I guess that is,
00:42:29
Speaker
I get what you're saying but I also think that he's actually a very resilient and good character that like was played for comedic value but also has like one of those saddest cards ever whereas like lifeless body is basically being killed over and over again. Like there's a lot there. So what I'll say in defense of Dominaria and not having Squeak is
00:42:57
Speaker
Like it is amazing. The Dominaria story with Martha Wells turned out as well as it did, simply because it was like it was the transition story to the franchise team before it all transitioned back with the runs are rising and got web fiction again. Yes. So if you think it in terms of we've got an outside author with no background in magic outside of I think we had we had talked around the fourth those cast and her her sons had played way back when.
00:43:28
Speaker
Uh, and yeah, it's, you know, trying with like a new team, trying and trying a new approach with like a new author. Like it's, it's amazing. Like it turned out as well as it did. We got Joyra down very well. Um, we learned about the weather light again. What I will say is Dominaria is established again now.
00:43:53
Speaker
So you now know Dominaria United is around the corner. We also know Jay is under NDA, so I'm not going to talk about any more things. But what I will simply say is like, you know, the first Dominaria set very much needed to be the reintroduction to Dominaria.
00:44:14
Speaker
and the second set and I should be clear I haven't seen the card set at all so I don't know I haven't seen like what any cards do or anything like that so I don't know I don't really know like that part of things
00:44:28
Speaker
But like any return to set, it'll probably go back to elements you would enjoy, just like Innistrad brought back Arlen Kord and expanded on her. And like what I've really liked about Midnight Hunt is, you know, we've gotten Arlen Kord, who is this relatively minor character and gotten like a full fleshed character arc from her that really fleshes her out from K. Arsenal Rivera, who is an awesome job with all that.
00:44:59
Speaker
So, yeah. And that's our show for today. You can find the host on Twitter. Hops Q can be found at Hops Q and Alex Newman can be found at Mel underscore. Send any questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to at goblin more pot on Twitter or email us at goblin more podcast.
00:45:22
Speaker
If you want to support your friendly neighborhood gospel, the task can be found at patreon.com. Opening and closing music by Vindergotten, who can be found on twitter at vindergotten, or online at vindergotten.bandcamp.com. Logo art by Steven Raffaele, who can be found on twitter at steve raffled.
00:45:44
Speaker
Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast as part of their growing Vorthos content as well as magic content of all kinds. Check them out on Twitter at hipstersmtg or online at hipstersofthecoast.com. Thank you all for listening and remember goblins like snowflakes are only dangerous in numbers.