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Dr. Alexandra Swanson
34 Plays1 month ago
Join Alasdair and Alexandra as we discuss being stationed in Greenland, long distance hiking in New Zealand, and how nature can help challenge and heal our souls.
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Transcript
Introduction to Learning through Adventure
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Speaker
Through travel, nature, getting outside and the power of learning. Each episode we will dive into stories from inspiring educators, adventurers and global citizens who are reshaping what it means to learn, whether it's in a classroom, on a mountain trail or even halfway across the world. From backpacking trips that change your perspective to educational journeys that transform communities, we will cover it all. So pack your curiosity, lace up your boots, and let's discover how the world teaches us.
00:00:44
Speaker
One step, one story, one adventure at a time.
Sponsor Highlight: Whole Earth Provision Company
00:00:56
Speaker
Since 1970, Whole Earth Provision Company has been the Texas outfitter for side quests, big and small. Whether you're gearing up for the open road, chasing a trailhead, or hunting for that just right gift, they have got you covered.
00:01:12
Speaker
Think durable clothing, shoes that will actually go the distance, gear that's road trip ready, and books, puzzles, and toys that will spark wonder at every age.
00:01:23
Speaker
You'll find Whole Earth in Dallas, Austin, Houston, and San Antonio, or anytime online at wholeearthprovision.com. And hey, because you're rolling with the Outdoorsy Educator podcast, here's a little extra love.
00:01:37
Speaker
Use the code OUTDOORSYEDU for 20% off your next adventure at Whole Earth.
Introducing Dr. Alexandra Swanson
00:01:48
Speaker
Okay, on this week's episode of the Outdoorsy Educator podcast, we have Dr. Alexandra Swanson. Alexandra, how are you today? I'm doing lovely. How are you? Oh, wonderful. It's good to connect. I found you through Andy Neal, Andy Films and Hikes.
00:02:05
Speaker
um Looking at his page, I found yours and realized that we could well be kindred spirits, very much into similar things, have similar beliefs. So I'm excited to get to connect with you and have a talk this afternoon.
00:02:18
Speaker
Why don't we tell people tell people a little bit about who you are? um Sure. So my name is Dr. Alexandra Swanson. I am a outdoor recreationist, of course.
00:02:30
Speaker
But my career started off, I'm an 18 year military veteran that decided to take a direction in my education and leadership consulting, focusing on the outdoor rec industry and how we can help build better and stronger communities.
00:02:45
Speaker
to bring people in and to help leaders also work with the diverse bipartisan industry that we are to become a more united front and learn how to speak with one another better.
00:02:58
Speaker
I love it. I mean, we could all benefit from that. um What branch of the military were you in? can you tell us a little bit about
Dr. Swanson's Military Background and Views
00:03:05
Speaker
your career? Because, I mean, you said 18 years. That's a a long career in the military. Yes. um And it's been with the U.S. Air Force.
00:03:13
Speaker
Okay. i My most recent rank that I held before I left. um Well, to be fair, I am still a military reservist. i Right.
00:03:24
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I do want to be clear that As I stand here today, I am representing no input from the Department of Defense or the Department of War. And I speak all of my own thoughts and ideas in this capacity.
00:03:37
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But right um I'm a major. um i have been with the US Air Force for a very long time. And we will see how that pans out here in the future. But it's a very proud and stoic culture that I have come from.
00:03:52
Speaker
um I'm a fifth generation military member. So I had, yeah, um we had a German Van Duren in my family back in the American Revolution. And so even though I'm a good old hippie from California with a father that graduated from UC Berkeley, and I definitely share some of those ideologies, um this is a really proud heritage that has kind of helped me kind of do that crosstalk between people from different lives um to really help engage more with us building community.
00:04:25
Speaker
I love it. that's And I know that one of the places, correct me if I'm wrong, you were stationed, was
Experience in Greenland and NSF Work
00:04:30
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Greenland. Is that right? yeah Yes. And that's one of those places, I wouldn't say it's a bucket bucket list place necessarily, but that fascinates me because it's truly edge of the world, off the radar for most people sort of place. So what was it like being stationed there in particular?
00:04:49
Speaker
Oh, God, it was one of the most amazing experiences I could have ever had. um Have you ever researched anything about Greenland? I've researched a little bit, but what I really know and and what I quite like is everything is determined by the weather, the roads, whether they're open or closed.
00:05:05
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you know I looked at the tourism website and I loved how vague a lot of it it is because they're like, it just depends on the snow and just depends. And I kind of love it. ah you might not have noticed that also most of the country is not connected by roads because there's a ice we know about the ice cap right in the middle, right?
00:05:24
Speaker
Yes. So the other thing is that the country is right in the middle. so first of all, it's owned by Denmark, practically part of the kingdom of Denmark, even though it's its own nation.
00:05:37
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um So the Danish I actually worked with, for the most part while I was there, they had a huge contingency of contractors that worked there. And the Air Force, you United States Air Force works in support of that for both NATO, the UN, n um the multiple defense commands that take place, whether that was Space Command at the time that I was there, now known as the Space Force, um and the European Command.
00:06:01
Speaker
But also the only way you can get, it's so far north where the i was located that you can't see the northern lights because they're so far south. wow i didn't know that right so there's certain places that it's just so remote then we are the food stop for the canadian bases up north doing arctic research where they only get food supplies twice a year because we only get one flight a week so it's a really interesting launching point for all of the groups internationally that work together under nato um to kind of discuss an arctic research so um
00:06:38
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it develops an interesting environment. And one of the curious things was actually, I got to work with the National Science Foundation while i was there. One of my first intros into climate change initiatives because they used me as the civil engineer troop that was there help them coordinate logistics and all of the support that we could provide to them on the base so they can launch out into the Arctic ice cap to just pull ice cores and see what was going on with the ice.
00:07:07
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just It just it me literally does feel like another world, almost like like you're talking about going to the moon, almost. You know, it's it's so far off so many of our radars, but it just looks like a fascinating place.
00:07:20
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It's one of the most interesting outdoor experiences you can have, too. um I was, the we had the bay freeze out there, so I was able to cross-country ski on the the bay water there through half of the season. Wow.
00:07:34
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I remember we shut down the entire location because a polar bear print was found. And so I was sending out teams and snow plows to go find these polar bears to make sure that we can reopen the location because those guys are hungry and they will go after a person if you're not careful. going to ask you if they're, we know about brown bears and black bears and things, those of us that, you know, follow the outdoors and stuff in the United States, but polar bears, are they sort food aggressive or will they go after people if if need be?
00:08:03
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They are a starving breed. I mean, we have to think about the fact that, and this was in 2014 that I was located there. Now it's 2025 and we're still losing more of the i Arctic ice.
00:08:15
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And the more that they lose that, the more opportunity they lose to actually find food sources. So where they find them, if they locate us, they do become a significant risk for human population.
00:08:26
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One of the interesting things though, is that we have community effort events tied in conjunction with the Danish personnel that are there um to connect with the Inuit tribes.
00:08:38
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And um there are several ones located around that area known now as Pitafik, which is the original native village name. And they will come together and they will sell their wares to the Danish community of hunting polar bear because it's one of their sources.
00:08:54
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In addition to the fact that they have to protect their own communities, and their own dogs, which are their way of life when it comes to actual, you know, hunting dogs and sled dogs.
00:09:05
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So it's a really unique experience to kind of get all of those cross-culturals, but also what it's like to be that close to the environment in such a harsh condition. It's so interesting. When you're talking about that, it really reminds me, and I'll get the details probably wrong here, in in the north of Alaska.
00:09:23
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but Excuse me. um you know you In the United States, you can't just go out and just hunt whales. But there are certain tribes of Inuit people, in the north and they're allowed to. they' um They have a quota because that's their literal food source.
00:09:38
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is the hub wheel Is it sort of a similar thing with polar bears? Like, are they protected completely? Or, ah you know, what's, you know, if you feel endangered, they're allowed to, you know, dispatch of the polar bears.
00:09:51
Speaker
What's the law surrounding them? Do you know? The only thing I recall from my time there. Of course, your experience. If there was a significant threat, we've,
00:10:03
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didn't carry um weaponry there unless you were a security forces agency. um And if there was a threat to life, of course, but really those those are some a beefy bears.
00:10:16
Speaker
Yeah, no, a shoot's not going to do anything. So what we would really do is patrol and make sure that they were allowed to move on gracefully and keep everybody indoors until they had proceeded off of the location.
00:10:28
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um However, and I would like to add, there's also regulations that Denmark has for that type of information. i From my recollection, the denmark people the Danish people that lived there were not allowed to hunt at all in that capacity.
00:10:46
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The Inuits were allowed to because it was their land. And I know that Greenland had specific um regulations to their native, not their native, excuse me, but their residents as well.
00:11:00
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um However, the transition of fairs I, as an American, as a U.S. citizen, excuse me, not American. We got a lot of America out here on the side of the hemisphere. um The U.S. citizenry, we're not allowed to purchase, for example, the polar bear wearers.
00:11:15
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But the Danish can because it's part of the commerce of green light.
00:11:21
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so I mean, that makes perfect sense, but so interesting.
Environmental Policy and Arctic Defense
00:11:24
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You don't think about the sort of the nuances and the, um, of what happens with the polar bears and things. that Remember they're an endangered species, right? Right. Regards.
00:11:34
Speaker
So it's a really interesting concept when you talk about how these major nations, major Western nations are taking place, um, in supporting how these native communities can still carry forward with their traditions, but still make sure that these, um,
00:11:51
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these animals are still being given a home and kind of integrate. And it's very hard. I won't say that I know that the bases and the military opera opportunities there, they are still industrial. We have to recognize that. There's still a need for um people to be in the Arctic, for the UN n and the NATO communities to have that support there.
00:12:18
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But there's a lot of respect still that is given, particularly by the people that live there and particularly by the community of Denmark to engage in what it means to have the Arctic climate stay stabilized and to the best of our ability as we continue to fight climate change impacts.
00:12:37
Speaker
So it was a really interesting dynamic for me as somebody who really believes in environmental policy, but also understanding the role of defense um needs up in the Arctic.
00:12:49
Speaker
Yeah, these situations, i think wherever you fall in your beliefs, there's an acknowledgement that they're complicated. um And again, when you were speaking, it reminds me a little bit, I'll get the name wrong, but in the Faroe Islands, there's a, think it might be the Grind, is it? The Grind where they hunt the whales, and it looks very barbaric.
00:13:08
Speaker
but there's you know a lot of sustainability that goes on and this is the food source. I don't pretend to be educated on it, but it just reminds me of that complicated moral dilemma that we face. I can totally agree with that. I don't know anything about the Farrell Islands. Right.
00:13:27
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um But you'll see that I related to, so now moving on to my future here and present time here in Colorado. Yes. I see it a lot as a girl that, again, grew up in California, had a father from a very interesting liberal arts background.
00:13:43
Speaker
um I grew up in small town USA, though. My graduating class was 27 kids. My entire science department Future Farmers of America. Right. i I saw there what I see in these conversations where you're talking about what's the difference between we shouldn't be there versus what we should support, what we...
00:14:02
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ah for environmental policy versus what we should support for Native communities continuing to regrow their traditions and keep those traditions so they don't disappear. and you see the same thing in small town USA, ah urban city.
00:14:18
Speaker
And you see that here with Denver and the wolf population vote where Denver, who has no wolves, voted very differently than the two thirds of the state that was farmland, agriculture, ranching, the people that are severely impacted by that.
00:14:31
Speaker
So I'm not going to take a stance on the wolf vote. I do not know enough about that information, but what I do know is that there is a severe and significant need for people to be able to talk and understand their own positionality and understand why somebody might think a little bit differently about the same issue and why it makes such common sense to both of you and your And how do you how do you make that intersection to actually understand where the other person's coming from so you can agree on something?
Diversity in Leadership and Perspectives
00:14:59
Speaker
Absolutely. And you've actually, i was looking through my notes there and something you've sort of, it maybe be not deliberately at all, segwayed into beautifully is one of your social media posts that I really resonated with was you talked about following diversity on social media, not just people you agree with or look like or sound like, whatever it may be, but diversity,
00:15:21
Speaker
um create strong leadership. ofship And was wondering if you could talk to a little bit about perhaps why you posted that or not necessarily that specific post, but obviously this is something um you believe in and any recommendations of people that we should maybe follow.
00:15:37
Speaker
So um I took on, so I took on that conversation because I'm really passionate about the idea that the only way that you really understand why,
00:15:51
Speaker
and somebody is the the way they are why they think the way they do and normalize them as a human it is when you try to connect with them in the way that they experience life now there's a lot of jargon in the world right now about this group is this sort of way and the more that social media delineates what you like to hear about, because you're like, oh yeah, that resonates to me, the more it will continue to push toward those ideas.
00:16:25
Speaker
And we all know that there's some amazing books out there about the social media divide and what it's doing to our children and their education, what it's doing to us as a society. And while that's not my specific subject of expertise, um what I experienced in my organizational change and leadership program with my doctorate was The discussion of when you intentionally expose yourself to different ideas that you're not necessarily familiar with, you are forced in a way to look at the world, at least with what they're presenting to you as an idea.
00:16:58
Speaker
you have a new thought to follow. The social media is designed to give you the product you want to hear. And no matter how much people villainize social media, it's a tool.
00:17:11
Speaker
You have to know how to use the tool. And i I know there's a lot of discussions about how it divides you, but that's the efficiency of the tool. You have to provide the new input.
00:17:23
Speaker
I think that's so interesting. um I think it's safe to say you and I probably have similar a similar political stints. And less, well, two years ago now, it was it was really funny. I put out a political sign in my my garden, which i I don't normally do, but I felt quite strongly about this, so I did.
00:17:44
Speaker
And my neighbor across the street, who ah we adore, put out an opposing one the same day. And it was really funny because it was a coincidence. It really was. He sent me a text saying, I swear we just got ours today. This isn't because you put one up.
00:17:58
Speaker
And we see things very differently. But it really took a 10 or 15 minute conversation for me to go, you know what If I had lived his life, I would probably feel the way he does too.
00:18:08
Speaker
And if he lived my life, he he said, you you'd see the world the way I see it. And all it took was it was sort of metaphorical and all these things. We literally stood in the middle of our quiet street and chit-chatted for 10 minutes and really understood each other.
00:18:23
Speaker
Whereas i think a lot of times people would shun the other side. But opening yourself up and just going, you know, tell me your story. Why is it you feel that way with no judgment? um What's led you to that path? I would love to hear it.
00:18:36
Speaker
um I think about that moment a lot, especially given the sort of political turmoil that's going on just now. There's a really interesting professional out there. I believe his name is Dr. Rose.
00:18:48
Speaker
And he did a research study out of Harvard that identified that eight, ah don't quote me on the Harvard piece, actually. I probably need to cross check that. But I would distinctly remember what he said in his interview that I saw on another podcast.
00:19:02
Speaker
And he identified in that study that he did through his sociological work that eight out of ten Americans, United States Americans, share the same values as their top ten values.
00:19:17
Speaker
yeah Isn't that fascinating? Isn't it? The idea that you can just talk to your neighbor and one of you is flying a I don't know, a particular red and white flag. And then another one is flying a particular rainbow flag.
00:19:33
Speaker
And both of you are sharing patio space in your same townhome. You actually know your neighbor's name. You know, have you made the time to discuss and just talk about the fact that that barbecue smells really good that they did on the Fourth of July? What is the recipe?
00:19:48
Speaker
You know, how do you how do you build personal a personal space and humanize somebody that thinks differently than you? And that's where I really believe the outdoors place is huge part and why I chose that direction, because I consider myself somewhere between nonpartisan and bipartisan. I'd really like to have these discussions and really keep myself open to all of the different ideas and for myself as best as I can.
00:20:13
Speaker
um The only way though that you can really humanize is when you find a common ground and the outdoors just so happens to be a very leveling field.
00:20:26
Speaker
Now there are certain sports. um My partner, he is a hunter. and will never be a hunter. I am the hippie climber that likes to be out there drinking my kombucha and And we think very differently, but be outdoors is a common ground for us where we will go car camping for eight straight days and be completely content in each other's company the entire time.
00:20:51
Speaker
And that's an important skillset that I think all of our leaders need to have. And, um, I would like to backtrack on one thing. I do owe you some names on some good folks to
Social Media and Broadening Horizons
00:21:01
Speaker
follow. One of my favorites, her name formally was BIPOC outdoors.
00:21:04
Speaker
um But I would have to look up. She just recently changed her name and I don't remember what she changed it to. But I definitely have a few of those if you're interested in some resources. Maybe what we'll do is we'll put them in the show notes, in the comments. We'll do that so people can just click on the links. That would be the easiest thing. Yeah, it's either that or I'm pulling out my phone right here on this interview and I'd have to look up the names.
00:21:24
Speaker
My memory's not that good. I have to do that sort of thing all the time. Well, you touched on car camping, which is a, ah speak I mean, I've been passionate about camping and hiking and the outdoors for years, but really in the last two years, um long story short that nobody cares about, but my poor old truck finally gave up.
00:21:44
Speaker
um after many faithful years of service, it was time for it to move on. And i bought an SUV. And ah part of the reason I did that was I was really interested in the idea of trying to build it out in the most economical way I can.
00:21:59
Speaker
We both know, and many of our listeners will, that you could spend, I don't think tens of thousands is necessarily an exaggeration, building the ultimate outdoor rig that can, you know climb over boulders and all of that.
00:22:13
Speaker
I wanted just to try and make something really comfortable for camping at the local state park that wouldn't cost much. um So talk to me about your car camping experience with
Outdoor Adventures and Gear Insights
00:22:23
Speaker
your partner. Is that something you've done for a long time?
00:22:26
Speaker
What's your car like? You know, just interested in that side of you, what you do. So I've been a Jeep girl for about seven years. Um, my rig now is a lot better because I found somebody who knew how to do construction work.
00:22:40
Speaker
right I formerly have been a civil engineer, but I was not, I was skilled enough. I was not patient enough to bother to build my own platform. Let's just be clear on that. So in past life, my first two door jeeps,
00:22:56
Speaker
I started off with just finding a vehicle that was long enough to fit me diagonally and the dog could go on a couple of multi-day trips. Nothing huge, but enough to be able to get out there for a long extended weekend without having to pay for anything that escalated later on when I moved from North Carolina to Colorado to a cot that was a little more expensive. It was an a REI product though.
00:23:20
Speaker
Um, and it fit in the back of the vehicle. I had to do a little bit of Jerry rigging because, um, I have a hybrid cheap now and the battery was in the way. I had to do a little bit of Jerry Reagan to get that pre-made cut to work, but that had me lasting for about a 10 day trip across the country.
00:23:39
Speaker
um But now we have a, I've been corrected. It was only like a hundred dollars worth of wood. think I, in my video, I said a little bit more, um ah but we,
00:23:53
Speaker
measured it out so it fit exactly along the wheel wheels. We found an old retired a double mattress that you can get out of a box in Walmart that had been used in a previous move. We cut that up.
00:24:04
Speaker
We're now using a real bed with a real mattress. Right. um And we fit that all in. And I'll tell you, I've never slept so comfortably on a road trip in my life. It was the best thing ever. um But you really have to think hard about what you're sacrificing. And luckily with all my backpacking experience, I have learned to cut what I actually require to live for 10 days. And really that's the skill anybody needs to be the most outdoorsy they could be is learning what you can leave at home and be entertained with while you're out there.
00:24:41
Speaker
I love it. Yeah, every single, even if it's just a ah weekend at the state park camping trip, I always sort of debrief with myself. What did I use? What did I not use? And I make a little list of things that I should i should have brought.
00:24:55
Speaker
And then what did I not use? And unless it's something like a first aid kit, I'm hoping not to use that too much. But if I don't use it for two or three trips, I really think, do I actually need this?
00:25:06
Speaker
um And can I just live without it? um You touched on your hiking experience and you've teased me with the blurred background of what you have your your one of your through hike behind you. What through hike is that the picture of that's behind you?
00:25:21
Speaker
Oh, I wish I could try to unblur the screen, but this is the Lord of the Rings Hobbit version of the map of New new Zealand. ah And all these little boxes you see are postcards.
00:25:35
Speaker
Postcards. All of these are postcards that I sent to individuals that were my friends or my coworkers from my last days on active duty Air Force. um As I experienced six months living out of a backpack doing 1800 miles down New Zealand Pe Aroa Trail.
00:25:52
Speaker
a I love that. That's one of those trails that ah he you comes up now and again when I talk to people and truly seems to be life changing for them. How was it for you?
00:26:04
Speaker
It was absolutely life changing. Right. It really helped me reflect on how I wanted to continue to serve, how I wanted to continue, how I want do adults.
00:26:16
Speaker
I mean, I had been with the Air Force since the day I turned 18. Literally the day I showed up um to to my basic training was the day I had turned 18.
00:26:30
Speaker
So it had been my life. And at that point I needed some time a away to not listen to what my parents believed about me being an engineer. What, what my friends believe was the responsible decision, um, to be in how I should be employed.
00:26:47
Speaker
um The result of that trip was I had signed up for my doctorate. I started my program. I focused on outdoor recreation. the i started this journey toward outdoor recreation for a full-time career.
00:27:01
Speaker
And it really is important, I think, for people to take an opportunity sometime in their life. It does not have to be six months. It does not have to be six months by foot. But to take a sabbatical, not right after college,
00:27:15
Speaker
but somewhere in the center of their career, right at that pivotal thirties time to really figure out what their life values are and really figure out how different their life could be.
00:27:27
Speaker
Now I do want to recognize one thing. and I want to say this also about the car camping thing.
Challenges of Outdoor Recreation Access
00:27:32
Speaker
ah Accessibility is a problem in the outdoors. Like this trip I saved for years and I had a stable job to save it for years.
00:27:41
Speaker
So I didn't come back from debt. I had a lovely little pocket to prepare me for it because I had seven years to plan it. Now, same thing with car camping. Car camping sounds cheap, but then you do what I did and you crack the windshield on the first day and you have a safety mechanism that requires a thousand dollar repair because they have to calibrate it. So now all that money that was supposed to save the hotel room goes out the window.
00:28:06
Speaker
right you know So there's something to be said about with access that you have to do what's within your fiscal capability, within your time constraints, which includes fiscal capability, because you might not be able to leave a job that long.
00:28:21
Speaker
feel And what's within your comfort level? Because sleeping out of car might not be how you get outdoors. Maybe you get a Motel 6 as close as you can to Yellowstone and you make the trip out the best you can.
00:28:36
Speaker
You know, The outdoors doesn't have to be what people see on social media. I have built my life to try to do that and make myself as you accessible to that as possible.
00:28:47
Speaker
But it's important that people just find the moment, in my opinion. Yeah. That's you' you've reminded me of a conversation I had with um I don't know if you're familiar. He's quite popular on social media. This chap called Acuna. I mean, it's Acuna Hikes. Yes.
00:29:02
Speaker
I actually have his book. Oh, there you go. Yeah. He's a ah really I met him um at PCT days for the first time this this year. um and we spoke And we spoke a bit about something that I didn't really realize I did, but he called me out on it pretty quickly. was It was almost um imposter syndrome, because I'm i'm always speaking, ah lot of the time, speaking to people who have done...
00:29:28
Speaker
1,000 mile, 1,500, 2,000 mile trails, you know, epic, huge multi-month adventures. And then there's here's me who does 100 miles at a time over the course of a week because I've got to get back to work. I have a wife. I have children. i You know, I have a life.
00:29:43
Speaker
And i almost downplay it. and And he so called me and he's like, you've got to stop. You are just as much, as is everybody else who does what they term small outdoors things, a part of this community.
00:29:57
Speaker
You could stay in the Motel 6 and visit Yellowstone for the day. And that does not make you any less a part of the bigger picture of trying to contribute positively to the outdoors and having the outdoors positively contribute to you.
00:30:11
Speaker
It just looks different. It's not better or worse. You're not more or less. um And you're so you're absolutely right. People do it differently. And um I think we need to celebrate that.
00:30:22
Speaker
We do. And we also need to teach our children and our peers how to kind of have those perceptions. ah Part of my personal story, um i mentioned I grew up in a small town California, which you don't really think about when you think about California. um there was a When I was three years old, one of my biggest memories from the outdoor recreation, which I did not even get into until my first station out in Guam, by the way.
00:30:50
Speaker
um i was an indoorsy person for the most I liked being outside, but like doing the outdoor sports thing sounded fun. It was just not the thing I pursued. But my father, um he was an educator. Our family had gone bankrupt from a job that had went wrong in investments.
00:31:07
Speaker
I was three years old. He went back to teaching sixth grade history in a town called Koolinga. And he would stick me on the back of his little piddle Paris looking French black skinny bike with a kid seat on the back with a styrofoam helmet that had a penguin sticker on it.
00:31:25
Speaker
And he would just ride the bike. because that's all we could do And we'd ride the streets. He would point out rattlesnake skins that he would find. he would pull me over to pick wheat and we'd pick bring the wheat home and mom would make fresh bread because that was better for us to do because she had a bread maker from their past life before the bankruptcy.
00:31:47
Speaker
And those little moments, just going out on a dirt bike road, um making sure I can make that Girl Scout trip to the camp. Not the big camp.
00:31:58
Speaker
I had to pay for those for my own cookie sales. But like the little one that your troop went to. yeah And making those and building those moments help a kid kind of build those skill sets to realize that it's just about the moment. It's not about the big adventure.
00:32:13
Speaker
And be on top of that is that if you build it with those little moments, eventually those become the people that go do a through hike, that go walk Kilimanjaro, that turn into Alex Honnold.
00:32:26
Speaker
You know, support the kid that wants to live in a van. They will figure it out. Yep. I couldn't agree more. And, yeah, some of these things can be scary and can be difficult, but you can do them.
00:32:37
Speaker
I mean, you can do these things. um You've spoken about something that I just love the term, and I started to look into it, but stopped because I wanted to ask you.
Building Resilience through Outdoor Experiences
00:32:47
Speaker
but i believe it's stress inoculation. Ah, yeah.
00:32:51
Speaker
And i i I think about this one, I've talked to people who sort of say, well, the idea of camping or hiking, through hiking, it sounds fun, but dot, dot, dot. And then there's use a list of reasons why you could fall off a cliff, get eaten by a bear, you know, have to wrestle snakes. All the things that I've heard about through hiking is ah always follows the but.
00:33:13
Speaker
But what is stress inoculation and why is it good for us? hi Well, now this is going more into my leadership and leader development and organizational team development.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yes. But I first would like to note that the reason I chose Te Aroro in part, other than my Lord of the Rings obsession, is they don't have snakes and the bears. Yeah, no snakes in New Zealand, right? That's it. yeah lot It's a bit of a safer trail to go. yes um so ah Have you had an ex, so what was your interest in stress inoculation? Like, have you had an experience where you felt like something pushed you a little too hard in the outdoors? I'm turning the interview on you.
00:33:53
Speaker
um one Only one time in the outdoors when ah I can really think I've been super stressed, and that was I did a trail called the Lone Star Trail. the longest path in Texas, 100 miles.
00:34:08
Speaker
I suddenly found myself in a an area that was that'd had a controlled burn, and all the signs were gone. i had minimal water. It was incredibly hot because all the trees were still smoking.
00:34:19
Speaker
And i was i was it's the first time I've ever gone. well I'm lost. I'm lost in the woods. I don't know what to do. and had to calm the the the adrenaline down.
00:34:30
Speaker
but um I would say that that's what, it of course, turned out fine. We're here talking today. But that's the one that jumps out at me when I really thought, I'm not sure what the next step is. And you kept your composure and got yourself out, right?
00:34:43
Speaker
i I had to really think about it for a few minutes. kind of had but breathe But then I did. Yes, then it was fine. So other people feel that way just about the idea of trying to start a campfire.
00:34:55
Speaker
And just the idea of not trying to get outside, just doing one overnight up the trail where the car is not parked right next to the campfire. In the military, there is an exercise where we expose ourselves and our troops to stressful situations so that when they're approached with another stressful situation, they're like, oh, well, if I did that, I could do this.
00:35:19
Speaker
Now, we this is to preemptively prepare people for the most difficult scenarios. I would argue that the one that you were facing where you were around wildfire bushes essentially is a very stressful scenario.
00:35:35
Speaker
but you've had prior exposure to the outdoors. That prior exposure may have prepared you to be a little more in the mental space about like, I am the only person that will get myself out of this.
00:35:47
Speaker
If you had been with somebody, we are the only people. We have to keep our heads together and build the plan and execute. It's a very military-esque type mentality that I said that with the words execute and composure.
00:36:03
Speaker
but But the idea is that In your day to day in an office, when you're saying you have all these projects, these emails, these deadlines, you still have family to take care of. How do you keep your composure that you can stave off anxiety, stave off depression?
00:36:18
Speaker
um Keep the timelines, make sure that you're continuing to be trustworthy. And when you experience, have opportunities where you kind of put yourself in a really uncomfortable position, like back country backpacking for the first time where bears are here.
00:36:35
Speaker
They're unlikely in this area because it's out of season and and I went with somebody who understands that. But I'm a little scared. I'm working through this and learning how to compose myself.
00:36:47
Speaker
That email, that project this week is nothing. I did that this weekend. And so the continued experience of the outdoors really can help leaders, help their teams understand what they're capable of.
00:36:59
Speaker
Because Our lives and our experiences in our lives are far more important than the email and the meeting and the deadline that really we have to face just to make a living.
00:37:10
Speaker
But building those experiences in the outdoors where we're experiencing what life has to offer gives us a twofold opportunity of not only resetting our values and priorities, but also preparing us for when things can get real.
00:37:24
Speaker
that is just as important in wilderness and survival as much as it is in the workplace and learning how to deal and cooperate with I find that fascinating. um Something that I try to think about when I'm in these stressful situations is i've I've never been in this. Like everybody else, I've had my peaks and valleys in life and the odd crisis, whether that be you know an emotional crisis of some sort or a burst pipe. but you know Life, we've all had had this happen. um everything has
00:37:57
Speaker
Everything in my life has worked out. It's not always the way I wanted. It's not the always the way it happened. I may not have liked it at the time, but if I stand back in the gift of time to reflect when this thing happened two years ago, it's OK. It did work out.
00:38:15
Speaker
And I try to remember that before I panic and go into any decision making, that whatever I decide here, like everything else in my life, is going to be OK. We just have to figure out how we're going to get there.
00:38:28
Speaker
and And we are, because we always have. And I really try to think about that in these these kind of situations you're talking
Mental Health Benefits of Being Outdoors
00:38:36
Speaker
about. Well, and the outdoors doesn't have to necessarily be a stress inoculation scenario either. It is right very useful for that if you push yourself.
00:38:43
Speaker
Right. But the other side of that conversation, and i I know you're familiar with this, is the mental health and well-being. Like having that place to reset. um Like I said, the outdoors can be very stressful for people sometimes when they haven't had that exposure.
00:39:00
Speaker
Once they develop that tool, though, now the outdoors suddenly becomes a mental health space where they can build in a place where they can find common nature, where they have somewhere to go when their lives at home, in the city, at the job is becoming too much and a place to reconnect.
00:39:20
Speaker
So it's a twofold conversation of not only are you pushing yourself past the limit that you might not necessarily have, but you're building a tool to make yourself more resilient in the future.
00:39:31
Speaker
And so my personal belief is outdoor recreation, being able to accomplish both is a really significant tool that leaders should be using, not only with them, their teams, but within themselves to build both of those skillsets.
00:39:46
Speaker
Because when you can get two for the price of one, why wouldn't you take that sale? Yeah. Right.
Leadership and Communication in Nature
00:39:52
Speaker
I love that you've you've developed these beliefs. And I'm not quite sure when, but obviously you've turned this into Move the Journey LLC, which I'd love to hear about what Move the Journey is, what does it represent, and where do you hope to take this?
00:40:07
Speaker
So Move the Journey is a two-fold platform. um The first part, my professional website, my consulting business. That is where I work with leaders. I just spoke for the Colorado Outdoor Industry Leadership Summit.
00:40:21
Speaker
um to help them understand how they can communicate better and effectively as a team to help carry the outdoor recreation industry forward. The other side of that is my social media platform. Now, while most people use that for marketing, I'm using it to help build a community, to help just individuals and people learn how to access the outdoors and also learn how to communicate better and maybe see both sides of the story.
00:40:49
Speaker
especially when it comes to our outdoors. We know that public lands is a very big discussion right now. Environmental policy is a big discussion right now. The division in our country and what that means is a big conversation right now. And again, as I've mentioned, without the recreation being so bipartisan as it is, so urban versus rural as it is, um how do we navigate bringing everybody to a common place where it's like, maybe we can just neutralize this conversation.
00:41:18
Speaker
We have a lot of people all the way to this side and all the way to that side that want to take up the mass. And it's important that we have people take up the the issue and make and be the ones that carry the flag bearing.
00:41:35
Speaker
But we need people in the middle to bring the ideas from both of these sides to be like, how can we collaborate to become stronger as a community together? So that's what Move the Journey is. I absolutely love that.
00:41:47
Speaker
um I forewarned you as we kind of wrap up this conversation, i forewarned you at beginning, I was going to ask you three questions, but I wouldn't tell you what they were. I could say talk to you for hours about this stuff. You are a truly in my wheelhouse, so we'll have to have you back on. um I'm thinking of the day that you you joined the military on your 18th birthday to today. How has your definition of success changed?
Evolving Definition of Success
00:42:15
Speaker
So it really doesn't have to do with my military time. It has everything to do with the power of growing up and that through hike trip and the power of reflection and giving yourself time to have reflection. It took me a long time from baby 18 year old me saying I have to check the boxes.
00:42:37
Speaker
My family was very good at that. I'm from a family of educators. Like I said, my father was a teacher, became a principal, was also a doctor. and And psychological education, actually.
00:42:49
Speaker
And checking the boxes mattered. The military has a very structured, you must do this in order to achieve success. And that's great, but it doesn't allow enough space, especially for A-type personalities, to really decide that success is what you define it to be.
00:43:11
Speaker
What New Zealand did for me and what the outdoors has done for me collectively is continue to be a reminder that we have life to live. We want to be successful. We want to contribute to our communities. We want to have a purpose. We as humans are designed to make things and build things.
00:43:29
Speaker
But since not all of us get the opportunity to make and build things for ourselves, very few people get that blessing. A lot of us work in standard corporations, education, nonprofits, et cetera.
00:43:45
Speaker
We have to make the time and the space decide what the values really matter for success. We can continue to be thriving in those communities, but we have to build a room to make sure that the life we live is one that we are exhausted at the end of that roller coaster.
00:44:03
Speaker
I love that concept. Yeah, whatever it is that we're doing. Yeah, exhausted at the end of the roll. I'm going to think about that. I like that a lot. um If you had to choose what one comes to mind straight away, if I asked you, has there been a book, a song, a movie that's had a particular impact on
Influence of 'Lord of the Rings'
00:44:22
Speaker
your life?
00:44:22
Speaker
There may be many, but what one jumps to you the front of your mind? I mean, I already said it in this interview. I thought I knew the answers. I was reading this.
00:44:34
Speaker
Lord of the Rings is the full power of it. I mean, that book is an extraordinary thing. It's an epic adventure. There's a lot of lessons about what it is to be a human, what it is to be part of mankind.
00:44:50
Speaker
in the conversation of good versus evil. And think J.R. Kilkin is just a genius. But then we look at Peter Jackson and his filming skills and you just the most epic adventure that any millennials at extra Gen Z-er would be aware of and know, oh my God, do I want to stand right there? How stunning is that?
00:45:12
Speaker
I love that. I love that. I wish yeah the people who are listening could see the smile on your face as you talk about Lords of the Rings. Like, I love it. ah You know what? I might have been an athlete and a veteran and all of those things.
00:45:24
Speaker
but it takes a nerd to put a DR in front of your name. I love you. That needs to be a T-shirt, I feel. You know, it's ah that's superb. My final question for you of these three, um and I always put a disclaimer. You've mentioned you have a partner.
00:45:42
Speaker
They don't have to be the answer. If you could go hiking for 10 miles with anybody, dead or alive, somebody from history, somebody you've met, somebody you don't know, famous, not famous, anybody except your current partner, because that's the default answer.
Importance of Family and Memories
00:45:57
Speaker
Who might that person be?
00:46:00
Speaker
um it would be my father. right he does not have that capability anymore, unfortunately, but there was a lot of missed opportunities in my childhood where was 12, 13, 14, and the Dukes of Hazard Marathon was just far more important than going on a hike with my dad because he wanted take the dogs out.
00:46:21
Speaker
And while thankfully i did take enough of those opportunities, I definitely know I missed quite a few that it would be wonderful if I could take those opportunities back. So for all of you listening out there, if you are missing out on a chance to go with a family member or an important friend,
00:46:41
Speaker
That time goes quick and you never know when illness, injury or the like may take over it and not take that opportunity away. So don't miss those chances. I think that's the perfect way to wrap up this conversation. Don't miss those
Connecting with Dr. Swanson
00:46:55
Speaker
chances.
00:46:55
Speaker
If people want to find you online, get in touch, ask you a question. Where can they find you? It's Evie. I'm under at Move the Journey pretty much on everything from Instagram, LinkedIn to the website.
00:47:06
Speaker
So Move the Journey and Move the Journey dot com. I love it. Well, Dr. Alexandra Swanson, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it. Thanks, Alex.
00:47:20
Speaker
Thank you again to this week's guest and I hope today's episode was as enjoyable for you as it was for me and perhaps even inspired your next adventure. If you did enjoy the show, please be sure to subscribe, leave a review or follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:47:37
Speaker
You can find more information at theoutdoorsyeducator.com or follow us on Instagram, TikTok or Facebook. Until next time, thank you so much for listening to The Outdoorsy Educator Podcast.