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00:00:01
Christine Norton
28 Plays17 days ago
Join Alasdair and Christine as we talk about the benefits of learning outdoors, how we can support kids who have been in foster care and how she got her Trail Name!
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Outdoorsy Educator Podcast, the show where curiosity meets the open road. I'm your host Alistair and I invite you to join me as we explore the world through travel, nature, getting outside and the power of learning.
00:00:17
Speaker
Each episode we will dive into stories from inspiring educators, adventurers and global citizens who are reshaping what it means to learn whether it's in a classroom, on a mountain trail, or even halfway across the world. From backpacking trips that change your perspective to educational journeys that transform communities, we will cover it all. So pack your curiosity, lace up your boots, and let's discover how the world teaches us.
00:00:44
Speaker
One step, one story, one adventure at a time.
00:00:56
Speaker
Since 1970, Whole Earth Provision Company has been the Texas outfitter for side quests, big and small. Whether you're gearing up for the open road, chasing a trailhead, or hunting for that just right gift, they have got you covered.
00:01:12
Speaker
Think durable clothing, shoes that will actually go the distance, gear that's road trip ready, and books, puzzles, and toys that will spark wonder at every age.
00:01:23
Speaker
You'll find Whole Earth in Dallas, Austin, Houston, and San Antonio, or anytime online at wholeearthprovision.com. And hey, because you're rolling with the Outdoorsy Educator podcast, here's a little extra love.
00:01:37
Speaker
Use the code OUTDOORSYEDU for 20% off your next adventure at Whole Earth.
00:01:50
Speaker
And on today's episode of the Outdoorsy Educator podcast, we have Christine Norton. Christine, how are you today? I'm doing great. I love the title of your podcast.
00:02:02
Speaker
Thank you. I figured it it's exactly as it says on the tin kind of thing, that's what we say back home. It's just, I didn't want it to be complicated and just wanted people to know what they were listening to.
00:02:13
Speaker
That's wonderful. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Tell us who you are, where you come from, and... Yeah, what you do for a career. Absolutely. Well, I am an outdoorsy educator, so I feel like I'm in the right spot. Right, right. Goodness of fit. um I'm actually, my my day job,
00:02:31
Speaker
is a social work professor at Texas State University. I've been teaching in the School of Social Work here for 18 years. So I'm i'm right down I-35 from you.
00:02:43
Speaker
um And I love it. I actually, my area of research and practice expertise is in outdoor therapy. And I actually get to teach a graduate social work elective in outdoor adventure therapy where Our classroom is the outdoors. So we don't meet in a classroom. We meet at the trailhead.
00:03:04
Speaker
We meet at the rock wall. We meet at the river. And we get to both experience firsthand the healing benefits of nature as well as learn about theory, practice, and research in the field of outdoor therapy.
00:03:19
Speaker
So it's exciting. This is just speaking of knowledge. And I'm assuming you're down in San Marcos, just south of Austin. So yeah, Texas State is in San Marcos. So we have beautiful hill country. We've got the river. And Texas State owns um several ah properties. We own a university camp.
00:03:38
Speaker
which is ah huge piece, i I should know the acreage, but I can't remember, um a huge piece of property on the Blanco River in Wimberley. And students and faculty and staff can sign out campsites or cabins, there's hiking trails, they rent mountain bikes and kayaks. And so it's just like a beautiful place. And I always take my adventure therapy class there.
00:04:00
Speaker
And then we also have Freeman Ranch, which is, um ah a place where a lot of our agricultural students work and have a care farm. They do some um kind of therapeutic farming out there. So Texas State has a lot of kind of what I would call like nature and health initiatives. And we actually were just designated as a campus nature RX member.
00:04:27
Speaker
So the campus nature RX program, like if you think about nature as like a prescription, right? Right. Prescription for health and wellbeing. um There is a whole network of colleges and universities around the country ah that have been designated campus nature RX sites and the program started at Cornell and William and Mary, two researchers there that studied nature and health and are really wanting to kind of address student and mental health concerns in higher education through access to green space.
00:05:03
Speaker
So it's exciting. That's so exciting. um I actually listened to another podcast a few weeks ago, and the lady who was the guest on it, and she and I have been getting, we've started a conversation, because she is a medical doctor, and she is working with states, and I don't want to get this the details wrong, but working with states to make it essentially legal, as opposed to prescribe time in nature. Yeah, as part of the standard of care. Yeah.
00:05:30
Speaker
Yes. And she's all about balance. She says she's all for Western medicine when as as when it's needed. But a lot of research shows, yeah, as you know, all too well, getting outdoors, getting into nature is often the best medicine.
00:05:45
Speaker
Yeah, it is. and You know, most people, if they're if they are seeing a mental health professional are doing it in an outpatient setting. But what happens is i need to still be able to care for my well-being in between my therapy sessions. Right. And so if we can embed and prescribe time in nature as a health practice for people.
00:06:09
Speaker
They have access to that. Usually that's free. right now we do still have issues with equity and access that we need to work on it's not like everyone just gets to walk out and be in a green space um but in general it's something even like nearby nature can provide some of those same benefits so it's really empowering I think I absolutely love it how did you get into this field did you start off in social work boy well I'm a What am i I'm a Gen Xer, right?
00:06:39
Speaker
ah Right. Yeah. i'm and i'm not I'm not sure what I am, to be honest. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in like the 70s and 80s, you know, my childhood. so I was definitely in the generation of kids whose parents were like, go outside.
00:06:55
Speaker
Right. I also grew up analog, baby. You know, had no technology. had a Walkman. Right. i had no technology i had a walkman um And I thought I was really cool. I bet you did. Yes. I think I, I think I'm, and I'm not romanticizing growing up in the seventies and eighties. Obviously every generation has its challenges, but I was tech free kid and i did have parents who were, you know, in their own ways, kind of outdoorsy and active. And so they exposed me to that and they also, encouraged me to,
00:07:35
Speaker
get outside and, and then formally, like I was also a camp kid, you know, and this this speaks to some of my personal privilege privilege, but my parents were able to send me to some camps and to some wilderness programs when I was a kid.
00:07:53
Speaker
And, and I loved it. i mean, I was hooked, you know, and so then I kind of as an adult came back to it for work. I love that. Was that in Texas where you grew up?
00:08:03
Speaker
You know, no I am like, shh, don't tell anyone I'm not. oh I don't think you're a Texan though, either. i am not. I am not right nothing that's not. a texas accent Right. yeah um We're both transplants. What's the what's the Lyle Lovett song? we We got here as fast as we could or something like that. yeah that Anyway, yeah, no um I grew up all over. um i grew up all all of different ah Midwest states mostly, but then actually after college, I came to Texas for my very first job out of college, which was at a program called the salesmanship club youth camp.
00:08:44
Speaker
It has a terrible name. It sounds like right a prison. It was not, it was not a prison. It was not a bootcamp. It was one of the first therapeutic camping programs in the country started by a Texas naturalist named Campbell Lockmiller.
00:08:59
Speaker
and ah And I went there with a bachelor's degree from the University of Kansas in communication studies. Like I didn't study mental health. I didn't study child development, but they hired me. And I worked for two years with ah young adolescent girls in a wilderness setting who were struggling with family problems, drug issues, mental health, school problems.
00:09:24
Speaker
And um the the program also had a really strong family component. But at the end of my time there, i was... very aware that I wanted to learn more about human behavior. And that's, it was really the, my time in the woods, ah in the piney woods of East Texas. It was out near Tyler.
00:09:42
Speaker
yeah um For two years, i decided I'm going to go to grad school. ah Right. And so then that's when I went to grad school to get my social work degree, as well as a degree in outdoor experiential education.
00:09:56
Speaker
And I wanted to kind of combine those two things. I just, I find this just fascinating. And having a quick look through your bio, you talk about adventure therapy. Yes. I'd love to, I don't, I can imagine what that means, but I'd love to hear from you. What what does that actually mean? Sure. Sure.
00:10:13
Speaker
Well, we all, we agree and we know, right, that getting outside is good for us. um Adventure therapy is actually a structured mental health intervention facilitated often by a licensed mental health professional that uses activities in the natural world, whether that's hiking or biking or rock climbing or paddling, right, more active kind activities Dr. outdoor activities that involve kind of doing in nature to get people kinesthetically engaged in their mental health treatment.
00:10:47
Speaker
Jennifer Often it's a group therapy modality, but not always there's inner there's individual and family adventure therapy. ah modalities as well. And so there's actually the therapeutic adventure professional group. That's a part of the association for experiential education. And there's a professional certification that people can get called the CCAT, which is a certified clinical adventure therapist credential. So but it's quite a professionalized field nowadays. And um definitely for those of us that
00:11:21
Speaker
like getting out of the office and doing more than just kind of sitting and talking with our clients. That just sounds fascinating. And again, like like you said, it's structured. It's not just, hey, kids, to go out into the wilderness and find yourself. it's yeah There's a plan and a structure. And I love that.
00:11:38
Speaker
So many, so many, i was going to say so many people, so many of us all need this. And I think it's just so important. um You're involved with something called, is it the Voyager outbound Outward Bound School?
00:11:50
Speaker
school yeah which again, i see the name and my imagination goes wild thinking, this sounds incredible. But instead of looking it up, I'd love for you to tell me what that is. Yeah. Some of your listeners might be familiar with Outward Bound. Outward Bound actually started in the UK like the 1940s and was brought over to the United States by some American educators.
00:12:12
Speaker
And it it's had a strong focus on kind of character education through the outdoors. There are Outward Bound schools, which are wilderness education programs all around the country. And the one that I worked for right out of um one of my graduate programs was the Voyager Outward Bound School, which is up in the north woods of Minnesota, right on the Minnesota-Canada border in the Boundary Waters. And so I worked for Voyager Outward Bound School seasonally for 10 summers
00:12:45
Speaker
um both as an assistant instructor, an instructor, a course director, a trainer, a researcher. um And we would lead 28-day wilderness expeditions for kids, ah again, kind of struggling teens, kids that were, you know, not finding success in school, having some family problems.
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, dealing with some emotional challenges. and it was really hard work, but it was really beautiful work because It was always very strength-based. That's something about outdoor adventure activities, both at both outdoor education and outdoor therapy is I think it's ideally it's supposed to really focus on our strengths, not just our pathology. Like, so sometimes the traditional medical model of therapy is like, well, here's what's wrong with you.
00:13:37
Speaker
And I think sometimes when we're, we're outside and we're, you know, experiencing new things and, and learning things about ourselves, we didn't think we could do, we get in touch with what's right with us.
00:13:50
Speaker
Like what is good about us? What's strong about us? Yeah, I do see a shift in that in education in general. I'm trying to think how many years ago it was, maybe five. yeah know, we did, when I worked in public the public school system, um you know, we did StrengthsFinders, which you may be familiar with, you know, and and really was that new approach of, yeah, we've all got things we can improve and we've all got struggles. But if we look at what we're really good at and focus on that, it's just a whole new outlook and looking our lives and careers through a different lens.
00:14:21
Speaker
Right. which Which I just love. I love that approach um because everybody's got things that they're really good at. um Just got to find them. Just got to find them.
00:14:33
Speaker
let's help people vote That's how people catch their spark. If all we focus on is what's wrong with us, we won't we won't have the necessary motivation to move forward in our education or in our therapy.
00:14:45
Speaker
But if we get that spark of like, ooh, actually, i have ah I have a couple of gifts. I have a couple, you know, skills or or passions that make me unique or, or you know, like a that I can offer to the world. So I agree. I love that.
00:15:04
Speaker
Every one of us has a gift, as you said, to give to the world. and And we just get to help all these kids and adults find it. Definitely, definitely. It's kind of like playing hide and seek.
00:15:15
Speaker
With our gifts, Alex. There you go. We find it we lose it. Then we go, oh gosh, what'd I do with my gifts? We got to go find it again, which is why you said you like like once a year to get back out and do your long hike. You're going back out to find those gifts, you know, recharge.
00:15:31
Speaker
My wife usually calls me out on it because she'll know when I'm getting a little irritable or testy and she'll be like, it's time. It's time for you to it to go away for a few days and pack the bag and find a trail somewhere is usually the case. that was Not all of us was It's quite far from me. I did the Lone Star Trail a few years ago now. Oh, I wanted to do that.
00:15:53
Speaker
It was a really good... um introductions may be a little unfair to it but you know it's not the Appalachian Trail you're not hiking the White Mountains or the Sierra Nevadas it's pretty too flat so it's a really good all right can I get four five six seven days under my feet and you know find yourself find out how much you can carry what do you need what do you not need um And it was just that it was a really good experience. Yeah. And listen, you got to give Texas Trails some credit because maybe we don't have elevation.
00:16:26
Speaker
but we have heat, we have bugs, we have lots of things that sting and bite, fire ants. Oh yeah, though there were some there was some, what are they called? heavenly i don't know if they were havenlinas, but they're wild pigs on the trail just walking around. In a few weeks, I am going to speak to one of the the brilliant minds behind what's called the XTX trail.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yes, I don't know what's happening with that. I've heard about it, but. It's very much, I mean, they're actively working on it now. um There was a podcast that came out. It might have been, i think it might have been the Texas Parks and Wildlife. They put out a couple.
00:17:02
Speaker
And it's been fascinating because they really thought the biggest challenge was going to be Texas has very little public land. It's 98 point something percent private land. So this trail is going to have to go through people's properties most of the way.
00:17:16
Speaker
So again, I don't just speak for somebody else, but it really seemed like they prepared a big pitch, a big sales pitch as to go to landowners and say, can we just cut through this tiny corner of your land? Would you mind?
00:17:30
Speaker
they really didn't need it. Everybody was like, yeah, bring it on. Everyone was excited. They liked the idea of hikers using the land, people seeing Texas and all of that.
00:17:41
Speaker
But then they also, from a fiscal point of view, they were like, well, do you mind if we throw up a shelter and charge people $10 a night? And of course, no, we'd encourage you to do that. So it's truly win-win situation for everybody.
00:17:56
Speaker
There's a long way to go, but it is on the move, which is very exciting. Very exciting. but Yeah. So I'm kind of looking forward to seeing that. um but I want to dive over ever so slightly. Foster care is another another, fair to say, a passion of yours.
00:18:12
Speaker
And I'd love to hear about why and then how do these two worlds come together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. and So when I became a social work professor at Texas State a few years in, um i started working with some of our college students here at Texas State who had lived experience in the foster care system.
00:18:33
Speaker
And keep in mind, i had been a social worker my whole professional career before I went into academia to train social workers, but I never worked in child welfare. I always i did school social work, juvenile justice. So I was always working with kids that were having a hard time, but never in the child welfare system.
00:18:52
Speaker
And so I learned a lot from these young people who are now young adults and college students about their experiences and. the kind of support they needed now as young adults in a higher education environment to begin to heal some of that trauma, the complex trauma that they had brought with them from their childhoods.
00:19:20
Speaker
And also not just for therapeutic purposes, but for educational success, right? The program actually that we started at Texas State is called FACES, which is foster care alumni creating educational success. We want these students to do well in their classes. We want them to get their degrees. We want them to break those cycles, um you know, whether that's of poverty or abuse that they had been exposed to and we know education is such a protective factor in doing that. And so we created a whole campus support initiative ah to help them. and And some of it focused on mental health, but some of it focused on like basic needs, food, shelter, you know, housing, um tutoring, right, transportation, like all the things that
00:20:08
Speaker
A lot of times a traditional college student might have a parent who takes care of that. A lot of these students didn't have that. um But one of the biggest protective factors that emerged from this effort was just that they would meet each other.
00:20:25
Speaker
And instead of feeling like they were the only foster care person at Texas State, they'd go, oh my God, there's hundreds of us, you know? And this natural... and this this natural non-deliberative peer support that occurred was literally one of the most healing things and we didn't plan for that until we saw how important that was and of course that bears out in the research on peer mentoring but then the question is always like great then how do you build this community of peer support and i was like well i know i'm an outdoor educator
00:21:02
Speaker
let's Let's go do a retreat at university camp. you know Let's go for hikes together. Let's really kind of bridge these two worlds. And so from that, I started the Foster Care Adventure Therapy Network and I started doing outdoor retreats with our Texas State foster care students.
00:21:20
Speaker
but then also started working with college counseling centers, um also started just really like learning about other people all around the country and even the globe that were also working with system-involved youth through the outdoors.
00:21:36
Speaker
And so it's just, yeah, it's ah it's definitely a passion of mine because these are kids who growing up in the child welfare system have definitely been living with the Kind of constant, like, here's what's wrong with you. Here's your diagnosis. a lot of them are, um have experienced a lot of medications, which there's obviously nothing wrong with medications, but these are kids that they have felt.
00:22:03
Speaker
that the mental health system was just offering them ah diagnosis and, and a treatment and not a full human holistic experience of like healing.
00:22:16
Speaker
So, so like you said, the outdoors becomes an adjunctive approach to the traditional therapy that they've also been getting. I love that your program really is provided that peer support because I feel when we're making these programs, of course, we want to create some big things, you know, a big network and go on adventures and this and that.
00:22:36
Speaker
But it always comes back to those small things, finding somebody else that's like you. press up What you're saying reminds me of, and I know that it that was dramatized, but the story from the movie, The Blind Side, which has got to be 20 years old.
00:22:50
Speaker
And I always remember Big Mike, the character, had never had a bed. And then he wanted a driver's license because he'd never had something with his name on it. And it was, you know, yeah, he was basically being given access to an upper class, very rich lifestyle. But those were the things.
00:23:07
Speaker
Those were the things. And it sounds like this network you're creating, yes, gives big opportunities, but also connection with people who get it. Yeah, 100%. And and you can't you can't put a price on that.
00:23:20
Speaker
absolutely love it. The other thing is experiences, right? Like you were referencing a driver's license or, you know, um having experiences that maybe you missed because your family was in crisis. So instead of having a childhood where you could just play and learn and grow safely, you didn't get that opportunity. So I remember one of my students, one of my FACES students, we were out at university camp, and it's really a very a much pick your own adventure. And so it's like,
00:23:52
Speaker
You want to take a nap in the cabin? Awesome. do You want to hike to the top of the ridge? Great. You want to go for a kayak paddle? Awesome. It's everyone's really getting to decide for themselves. That element of choice is obviously really important in trauma recovery work. And so one of my students, he's like, I'm just going hang out in the river.
00:24:11
Speaker
And, you know the Blanco River, the section of the river, very there's some parts that have water in it, but a lot of parts that are just more shallow. So he was just kind of walking in this river and he was just picking up rocks and, you know, he did and the water's really clear there. And he would so dick dip his hand in and he can pick and he'd be like, oh, this one's green.
00:24:32
Speaker
oh my God, this one's blue. Oh, is that a fossil? And then this kid, I mean, i we kind of walked away from him. He was on his own, just looking at rocks in the river for like two hours. And i of course, snuck a picture of him and I texted it to him.
00:24:49
Speaker
You know, and I was like, ay was so happy to see you just in your own world. He goes, yeah. He's like, I felt like a kid again. He's like, I haven't felt like I i mean, I don't even know if I've ever gotten to do something like that. Just like be a kid and like just explore. And and I mean, and you know, I think your listeners will get it because they love the outdoors.
00:25:16
Speaker
um but to have a corrective healing experience with nature where you just get to play and explore unstructured, safely. Like, oh, it was so cool. He still talks about it and we're doing our retreat in a week and he's signed up. He's signed up again.
00:25:33
Speaker
I love this so much. I love it so much. I mean, this is why we do what we do for those those little moments of seeing the kid playing with the rock. yeah um It reminds me, it's,
00:25:44
Speaker
A parallel program, a friend of mine who works in a local school, um again, a Title I school with a lot of instabilities of various forms. And he's formed a ah club with the parents for the children to go and sort of experience things that they wouldn't normally get to experience and they haven't.
00:26:02
Speaker
But it's nothing. It's all... things that we've taken for granted. How to go grocery shopping. Quite a lot of these kids at the grocery store is Dollar General. They don't know how to go to a more mainstream, a Kroger, even Walmart and buy food there.
00:26:19
Speaker
That's not in their family's budget. um they a local restaurant sponsored their dinner and paid for the dinner for all the group to go because most of them had never sat down in a restaurant before. um They would order and then they would ask, where do we go and pick our food up from?
00:26:35
Speaker
And these are eight, nine, 10 year olds. so it was taken So to show them in this kind of place, this is what you do. And so how many of us, I mean, I certainly don't remember. i grew up yeah it' middle class.
00:26:47
Speaker
There's no such thing as average, really, but, you know, middle class. And I don't remember the first time I sat down in a restaurant. I don't remember the first time we went to buy food. It was just what we did.
00:27:00
Speaker
These kids will remember this. um And it just it just has really struck me up how important it is to give these experiences to kids like you're doing.
00:27:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a reciprocity there because certainly like class differences limit people's exposure to what we might think of as like mainstream experiences.
00:27:22
Speaker
But I'm also really aware of an outdoor program I worked for called the Princeton Blairstown Center. It's an outdoor education center in the Delaware water gap of Western New Jersey.
00:27:33
Speaker
i saw my first Black Bear in New Jersey. When I tell people that, they giggle. um But it was on the Appalachian Trail. And this program works with a lot of urban youth who are living in underrepresented communities, you know, very low-income neighborhoods in urban areas in New York, Philadelphia, and and urban parts of New Jersey.
00:27:57
Speaker
And I remember, though, that, you know, lest we think that we were the ones, like, kind of giving this magical experience of camp because they would come to the outdoor ed center for a week or two weeks at a time in the summer.
00:28:11
Speaker
um Our program director had us do what was called urban experience and the kids that we were going to be working with in our environment, the camp environment were our host.
00:28:24
Speaker
And we would usually sleep at like a local YMCA or a local church basement, you know, bring our sleeping bags and, the kids would take us on an urban experience, a tour of their neighborhood and their community.
00:28:39
Speaker
And it was really eyeopening for people who came from privilege or even middle-class, like I was also a middle-class kid like you, took things for granted, right? but But also had been a little bit socialized to think, oh, well, these kids come from like a bad neighborhood, right? Like I had those those like, you know, you're talking about your title one kids, we can, we can have these, these like stereotypes. And so this program, this urban experience was so powerful for me because these kids, what they were able to do was they showed us the assets in their community that like, they were proud of, whether that was like their, their school or like the local public library, or like, even I remember one kid showed us where like,
00:29:25
Speaker
Mrs. So-and-so lived. and And he's like, you don't mess with Mrs. So-and-so. She knows everything about everyone in this neighborhood. She's always like, you know, yelling at you or keeping you straight. And I was like, oh man, I'm like, everybody needs a, you know, Mrs. So-and-so.
00:29:40
Speaker
But it was cool because I do think i want I always want when we're talking about, you know, outdoor experiences, especially those that we want to be inclusive of like class or racial or gender or even ability differences.
00:29:54
Speaker
You know, that that were engaging in a lot of reciprocity, you know, so like my foster care students. Yeah, I get to, you know, two of two of my students came on a paddling trip through the lower canyons of the Rio Grande with our outdoor program. And I got to go on that trip with them.
00:30:11
Speaker
And, but we were all, I mean, don't know if you've ever been to the lower canyons of the Rio Grande River. I have not, no. It remote wilderness. It is beautiful. But we were all, it was cool because we were all experiencing it together at the same time. And it was like so equalizing, even though we came from really different backgrounds, you know, we were all in a learning experience together and a very novel environment together. And it, it, it, it put us, um,
00:30:41
Speaker
you know, it gave us a shared experience, I guess I would say. I love it. And I've got to say, I love that you brought up the Appalachian Trail of New Jersey. It was about a year about a year ago, i went hiked the whole New Jersey section.
00:30:55
Speaker
So you know. I know it. We walked the same path. My in-laws. The Kittitany Mountains. Yep. That's gorgeous. It's beautiful. hiked from the Delaware water, got up to the the board with New York State and then headed east.
00:31:10
Speaker
My in-laws are up there. They're in town called Sparta, which is just about 10 miles from the trail, you know, bit of the trail. um So use that as my little base and then I just love it. I've got my wife's from New Jersey. I've got a real soft spot and an affection for the trail in New Jersey.
00:31:27
Speaker
So love that you heard heard the bear, heard a bear up there. Not the bear. I'm sure there's more than one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Heard a bear up there. I absolutely love that. Yeah. um You've talked a lot about the adventures you've done with your kids, but I'd love to hear on a personal note, an adventure you've been on, perhaps your favorite memory of a vacation, an adventure, something like that.
00:31:50
Speaker
Well, let's stick with the Appalachian Trail. Okay. Since we're we're already, we're on the Appalachian Trail. um i I have been in my life, um hoping to get back to it maybe someday, but an avid trail runner.
00:32:06
Speaker
And so I have a group of women that I trail run with and we decided to do an outdoor adventure trip together. And so 11 of us, we did not see a bear, by the way, you get 11 women together. We are so loud that all wildlife just ran for miles, you know, but um it was interesting because I had done a lot of back country travel as an outward bound instructor. And so
00:32:37
Speaker
had some skills as far as like navigation or knowing how to filter my water or hang a bear bag, um how to go the bathroom in the woods, you know, things like that.
00:32:49
Speaker
Right. But I had a lot of women in the, in the group and this was like a first time for them. And so we were, you know, we were talking about all the different things and they were asking about, well, what do we do with our trash?
00:33:02
Speaker
And I was like, well, we, we bag it out. Right. Like everything we bring in, We bag out. And then they were like, but but what about like our toilet paper? And I was like, yep, you bag it out.
00:33:15
Speaker
We carry it out. And this was a little much for them. They were like, but so you're carrying like this this gross trash. And so... It was a little bit of a sticking point. And so I was like, listen, guys, it's fine. I'll, I'll, I'll carry the trash.
00:33:31
Speaker
Like if I can, I have a huge giant backpack. I'm going to have tons of extra room. It's fine. Like whatever. Well, you know, throughout the week, the, the trash builds, the, the bag gets heavier.
00:33:48
Speaker
And i am like now aware that I am, I'm carrying, I'm carrying a lot of weight yeah and, And so we finally get to the end of our section, you know, and we're in North Carolina and we come off and we're at this hostel and it's pouring rain, you know, of course it's the smoky mountains.
00:34:12
Speaker
And, and we come off the trail and I'm just like, I got to take this pack off. Now the pack is wet. So it's even heavier. And so I take, I go and I stand on a scale and I'm like,
00:34:27
Speaker
God, this pack is like over 50 pounds, you know? Goodness Which, again, it's not the heaviest pack in the world, but when you're backpacking on the AT. Yes, it is.
00:34:39
Speaker
It's so much weight. So the funny thing is, you know how you get a trail name when you're on the Appalachian Trail? I think it will not surprise you that after that heroic effort on my part,
00:34:54
Speaker
My Appalachian trail trail name is trash bag. i love this so much. can't tell you. My friends will still be like trash bag.
00:35:07
Speaker
That you will forever now be trash bag. even for It was funny because we were sitting around the campfire with other hikers, some of which were through hikers and they were like trash bag, huh?
00:35:20
Speaker
And I said, yeah, they go. we need one of you in every group. And I was like, oh, yes. I love it. I've, you know, hiked various times on the Appalachian Trail, but I've always been by myself.
00:35:32
Speaker
So i I have yet to be bestowed with the trail name. But one of these days, ah one of these days, it's a rite of passage. um i've I've met i lots of friends who have done it and been, I'm quite, you know, I've gotten more and more involved in the through hiking community, despite not being a through hiker.
00:35:50
Speaker
But one of these days, a trail name will come my way. Yes, it will. Yes, it will. We will see. I can't wait. one I will call you and say, trash bag, guess what?
00:36:01
Speaker
Right? that's That's how that will go. so as we kind of wrap things up here, I've got three final questions for you I would like to ask you. um The first one is, how has your definition of success changed throughout the years? I'm going put you on the spot here.
00:36:19
Speaker
Okay. um Pivoting a little bit. Yes. Yes.
00:36:25
Speaker
Well, look, I'm a big to-do list checker offer. Like, I really like getting stuff done. Right. I'm a little bit type a about, like, let's get her done.
00:36:40
Speaker
And there's a real strength in that. ah But I can definitely lose balance my life. in my life You know, work-life balance, balance between family and work. um And so i think for me, success has to have some degree of self-care embedded into it. Like if I'm achieving, but I'm making myself sick doing it, or I'm neglecting the people I love doing it, it's not really success. It's achievement.
00:37:19
Speaker
Yeah. and And it's great. we I mean, we're so socialized, right? Education is all about like achievement. ah But I think success is when your achievement is aligned with caring for yourself and others and the values that you hold dear.
00:37:39
Speaker
I love that. A good lesson for us all. um Now, if you could say that one book or a piece of music has truly influenced your life, would you be able to pick just one of either? Not one of each, just one of either.
00:37:56
Speaker
Oh, my goodness.
00:38:01
Speaker
Okay, not one of each. Well... Unless you want to. unless you want to but i Well, i'm laugh I'm laughing because i I have three children of my own. um And ah ah two of them are my daughters.
00:38:14
Speaker
um My son's in the middle. But one of my daughters is named after Mahalia Jackson, who was an African-American gospel singer and civil rights activist in the 1960s.
00:38:25
Speaker
And her gospel music changed my life so much so that I named my daughter Mahalia. And then my youngest is named Wendell Jane, and she is named after Wendell Berry, who is an agrarian poet, philosopher, writer.
00:38:46
Speaker
And his poetry has also fundamentally changed my life enough that I named my daughter Wendell. So I think I'd have to go with Mahalia Jackson and Wendell Berry.
00:38:58
Speaker
I love that. I love that I've now asked that question to learn so much about you through that. I love it. And my final question for you is, if you could go hiking in the wilderness for 10 miles with anybody in the world, somebody you know, you don't know, dead, alive, famous, not famous, who would you like to go on a 10-mile hike with?
00:39:22
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. Okay, so you're going to laugh. Yeah.
00:39:27
Speaker
I mean, you're going to laugh at me if I say, okay, I'm going to give you my silly answer that popped right into my head. I'm going to give you my legitimate answer. Right. But my legitimate answer is going to be hard because she just passed away.
00:39:41
Speaker
My silly answer is Bill Murray. Get me on the trail with Bill Murray, 10 miles with Bill Murray. We're going to go get a cold beer afterwards. It's going to the best day of my life. I love that. And I suspect i know who your second will be. Of if our dear and beloved Jane Goodall was still with us, to walk through the wilderness with a naturalist and spiritual guide like that would be beyond ah my wildest dreams. So maybe I'll, maybe, i maybe her, maybe her spirit will be with me on a hike. There you go. I love that. Have you, I haven't watched it yet, but this interview with her that's on Netflix.
00:40:20
Speaker
No. Oh, so I, and I believe this story is correct because it did just come out. She recorded it a little earlier this year and it was to be released upon her death.
00:40:31
Speaker
And it's her final message to the world. Oh my God. and it was released And it was released this week. So I don't think it's, ah I think that is a true story. It's just a one-on-one sit down with her. And I checked and it is on Netflix and we're going to sit down this weekend and watch it. Oh, get ready for a good cry.
00:40:50
Speaker
I think I have to be emotionally prepared for this. Trash bags can be weeping. Trash bag weeping. i love it. Well, Christine, trash bag, it's been an absolute pleasure. This is, i feel like it's, we've gone from just people who didn't know each other to colleagues to friends. it's been Yeah, just like that. Well, I hope to stay connected and thank you so much for your just warmth and storytelling as well and making a really welcoming environment for me.
00:41:20
Speaker
Thank you again to this week's guest and I hope today's episode was as enjoyable for you as it was for me and perhaps even inspired your next adventure. If you did enjoy the show, please be sure to subscribe, leave a review or follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:41:37
Speaker
You can find more information at theoutdoorsyeducator.com or follow us on Instagram, TikTok or Facebook. Until next time, thank you so much for listening to The Outdoorsy Educator Podcast.