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Episode 25 SUMMER SCHOOL: Are all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit Still Available to Us Today? with Dr. Sam Storms
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Dr. Sam Storms is an Amillennial, Calvinistic, charismatic, credo-baptistic, complementarian, Christian Hedonist who loves his wife of 47 years, his two daughters, his four grandchildren, books, baseball, movies, and all things Oklahoma University.
In 2008 Sam became Lead Pastor for Preaching and Vision at Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Sam serves as a member of the Council of The Gospel Coalition. Sam is a past President of the Evangelical Theological Society, and currently serves on its Executive Committee.
Mentioned in this episode:
Understanding Spiritual Gifts: A Comprehensive Guide by Sam Storms
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Transcript
Introduction to Root Like Faith
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Ruth Schwank and I'm so thrilled you're listening in with us at Root Lake Faith. It is our deepest desire to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's word, transformed by the love of Jesus and moved by his mission in the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important.
00:00:19
Speaker
Well, listen, we have a treat for
Introducing Dr. Sam Storms
00:00:22
Speaker
you today. We are continuing this summer school miniseries and our special guest today. I know you're going to love him and this is some really, really great information. Honey, can you share what you guys are talking about and who our guest is?
00:00:37
Speaker
Yes, we're talking with Dr. Sam Storms today, and it's just a fantastic conversation. Many of our listeners will be familiar with him. He's a pastor, a theologian, a writer. And my goal today in the conversation is to stay out of the way. So for those that know Dr. Storms, he is a brilliant mind and just well-respected. And so my job was just to ask good questions and then just let him do what he does and just stay out of the way and not make a fool of myself.
00:01:07
Speaker
And so it was a real honor to have him on Root Like
Are Spiritual Gifts Still Relevant Today?
00:01:10
Speaker
Faith. And we're talking today in particular about spiritual gifts and whether or not all of the gifts still exist today, whether God uses all of those gifts. And so in particular, we're going to be talking about some of those more controversial spiritual gifts. And so we're going to talk about the gift of healing, the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues. And so it's just a really, really good conversation. I think it'll be very helpful.
00:01:31
Speaker
for our listeners, no matter what camp you find yourself in. This is just a really, really important conversation, and I think this will shed an awful lot of light on this subject. And he is just an incredible pastor, incredible theologian, and writer, and so just really honored to have him on Root Like Faith today.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah, so let me share Dr. Sam storms, share a little bit more about Dr. Sam storms with you. Dr. Sam storms. He has loved his wife of 49 years for 49 years. That's a long time. He has two daughters, four grandchildren. He loves books, baseball, movies, all things Oklahoma University. We're gonna let that pass Michigan fans. I didn't bring that up on the podcast. Well, that's good. Yeah.
00:02:18
Speaker
Well, so in 2008, Sam became lead pastor for preaching and vision at Bridgway Church in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. He serves as a member of the Council of the Gospel Coalition, and he is a past past president of the Evangelical Theological Society and currently serves on its executive committee committee. Oh, my word, I keep like every word has another syllable.
00:02:42
Speaker
He's the author of numerous books. Most recently, he released a rather extensive book on the spiritual gifts with Zondervan, entitled Understanding Spiritual Gifts, a Comprehensive Guide, and Understanding Spiritual Warfare, a Comprehensive Guide. So I think we have a lot to learn from Dr. Sam Storms, and this is going to be really good. So let's get going. Well, Dr. Storms, welcome to Root Like Faith. It's good to be with you today.
00:03:12
Speaker
As you know, as we were talking, we're in this series on the podcast talking about some of the basics of Christian belief. And so we're exploring questions like, what is the Bible? Can the Bible be trusted? What is the Trinity? What is the church? And so I'm really excited to talk with you today about the Holy Spirit and in particular, the gifts of the Spirit. And I know you've written numerous books on
00:03:35
Speaker
the gifts of the Spirit. And we're going to link to those books in our show notes. And so I'm really excited to have you speak into our listening audience today as we talk about the gifts of the Spirit. And so I would love just to start with having you share your personal story. We're going to get into some of the basics of what is a spiritual gift and
00:03:54
Speaker
are all the gifts still in operation today. But before we begin with that, or before we get to that, I'd love for you just to kind of share your personal story and how you've come to the theological position that you hold today's.
Dr. Sam Storms' Journey to Continuationism
00:04:08
Speaker
Sure. Well, I'll be brief. I was raised in a Christian family, had wonderful Christian parents and a Christian sister. Was saved very early in life, probably around eight or nine years old. Attended the University of Oklahoma, then went to Dallas Theological Seminary.
00:04:25
Speaker
So I graduated from Dallas in 1977 with a THM. Started pastoring in Dallas in 1974. So I've been doing this for, what does that make? About 47 years now in full-time ministry. Pastored churches in Dallas, Ardmore, Oklahoma, Kansas City. Taught at Wheaton College for four years. Taught theology there. Been back in Oklahoma City for 13 years now.
00:04:54
Speaker
The shift theologically that probably is most relevant to our conversation is one that centers around the existence of spiritual gifts. I was what is called a cessationist for the first 14, 15 years of pastoral ministry. I believe that the so-called miraculous gifts of the spirit had ceased or had been withdrawn by God somewhere toward the end of the first century.
00:05:24
Speaker
and that they are no longer operative or valid in the life of the church. And I embraced that enthusiastically and taught it and preached it until the late 1980s. And I came across some new material, began to re-examine arguments that I had heard. It wasn't because I'd had any kind of powerful experience with the gifts, but just looking at scripture and asking the question,
00:05:50
Speaker
the arguments that have been given to me by my seminary professors. And I said, all right, now where is that in the Bible? And I have to be honest to say, I hadn't really looked and answered that question. But as I did, I came to the conclusion that not only did the New Testament not teach the cessation of certain gifts, I think it explicitly teaches their continuation. And so that launched me into a journey personally, pastorally,
00:06:17
Speaker
of learning more about what the gifts are and how they operate. And, you know, obviously we're all familiar with the abuses and the excesses. We see those all the time in the Christian world, sadly.
Cessationism vs. Continuationism Explained
00:06:29
Speaker
And so I've been ministering in and living in the power of those gifts since about 1988, 1989. Very good. And you really kind of already touched on that, but, you know, briefly explain, you talk about, you know, being a cessationist. I mean, kind of explain those
00:06:46
Speaker
two or the two different camps. Typically, when you think about the evangelical Protestant world, I mean, those are really those two camps. Either you believe that that the gifts ceased or that they continue today. Sure, well, it's important that your listeners understand we're not talking about secessionism. Secession is what the the southern states did that inaugurated the Civil War. We're talking about cessation or the ceasing
00:07:15
Speaker
of certain gifts. Cessationists typically believe that these miraculous gifts, things like healing and prophecy and tongues and interpretation of tongues, word of knowledge and the like, and gifts of miracles as well, that these were designed by God simply to inaugurate the church age, to kind of serve as a booster to get the rocket into orbit, as it were, and
00:07:43
Speaker
They served that purpose. They bore witness to the authenticity of the gospel message. And then once the scriptures were given and the canon of scripture was recognized by the early church, that the purpose for those gifts ended. And so God just simply stopped bestowing them on his people. As a continuationist, I believe all the gifts continue.
00:08:10
Speaker
They continue to exist and operate and God continues to give them in response to our prayers for. One of the reasons that I soon came to discover was spiritual gifts have a multiplicity of purposes beyond that of merely attesting to the truth of the gospel message. So again, the cessationist says, well, they bore witness to the authenticity of the message.
00:08:37
Speaker
And now that we have the scriptures, we don't need those gifts anymore. The problem with that is, first of all, there's no reason why those gifts can't continue to bear witness to the authenticity of the message today. Now, there's nothing in the Bible, not a single syllable that says the function of gifts to attest and point to the truth of the gospel has somehow ended and
Purpose of Spiritual Gifts
00:09:00
Speaker
that the Bible itself has taken their place. The Bible simply doesn't say that about itself.
00:09:06
Speaker
And then, of course, you have multiple other purposes for these gifts. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12, seven, that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each for the common good. And then he goes on to describe those nine miraculous gifts in verses eight through 10. And notice what he said, it's for the common good. In other words, the primary purpose of these gifts is to build up the body of Christ, to encourage, to rebuke, to instruct,
00:09:34
Speaker
to console, to energize Christians in their Christian walk. Paul talks about gifts serving to edify the body of Christ. He specifically mentions prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14.3 and says that the one who prophesies speaks to people for upbuilding or edification, encouragement, and consolation. He goes on to talk about
00:09:59
Speaker
the gift of tongues, for example, as a way in which we give thanks to God and a way in which we worship and praise God. I think all the gifts serve to glorify God. They bring attention to his power and to his goodness. We see in the book of Acts that a number of times miraculous gifts were means by which people had their eyes open and came to saving faith in Jesus. So there are a multiplicity of purposes for these gifts, all of which I think
00:10:28
Speaker
are said in the New Testament to be essential to our upbuilding throughout the entire course of this church age. So that is why I'm a continuationist. I don't see anything in scripture that would lead me to believe that we have developed or grown beyond the point at which we need to be edified and encouraged and strengthened and come to know and understand deeper the things of God. That won't happen until Jesus comes back.
00:10:58
Speaker
And that's why I believe these gifts will still be in operation until that time. Yeah, no, that's really good. I appreciate you sharing that and clarifying some of those different, it's interesting. I've heard you talk about the difference between a word-centered and a spirit-centered church. And so can you describe, look, because I think what you're describing there is that those that hold to that view that the gifts have ceased,
00:11:27
Speaker
tend to put then a greater emphasis on the word. And so you see churches that if they hold that theological position, that there are certain gifts that are no longer in operation today. Of course, the word is then elevated, becomes more of a word centered church where maybe a more charismatic or Pentecostal churches, there's a greater emphasis on experience or the spirit. Can you briefly kind of talk, because I know you've done that in a variety of different places, sort of outlining some of the characteristics of each of those.
00:11:56
Speaker
Sure, and I would just say that by God's grace, what you just described isn't true a bridge way here in Oklahoma City. I would put us up against any cessationist church in
Balancing Word and Spirit in Church
00:12:10
Speaker
terms of our emphasis on the word of God. I mean, I preach verse by verse, line upon line, chapter by chapter through the books of the Bible. I'm in Romans right now. I just finished
00:12:22
Speaker
I guess my 22nd message in Romans, and we're only halfway through chapter five. We highlight the word of God. We don't do anything that we don't think the word of God clearly instructs us to do. So we are very much a word-centered, word-based church, but we are also very spirit-centered. I just don't think you can separate word and spirit.
00:12:46
Speaker
We argue here for a convergence of the two. We believe that God has wedded them, and it's unfortunately the people of God, for a variety of reasons, have kind of created a divorce and a divergence. We believe in a convergence of the two. So, for example, I'll just give you an illustration. Yet, you know, in our most recent Sunday Church service, it's preaching in Romans 5, a 40-minute message, just unpacking
00:13:14
Speaker
word by word, what Paul was saying, making application. And then we follow the preaching with our singing and our corporate worship and it's very lively, it's very expressive, it's very passionate. And then we had a couple of people who came to me with what they thought the Lord had impressed on their hearts and they shared words of knowledge and prophetic utterances. And then we gathered around people who were sick, we laid hands on them and prayed for them. And at no time did we say,
00:13:42
Speaker
One of these is more important to the other than the other. No time do we say, hey, because we really love the word of God and we just dug deeply into some profoundly theological truths in Romans, therefore we don't need to worship. We don't need to pray for the sick. We don't need to operate in spiritual gifts. Nor do we say, hey, let's just skip the scriptures. Let's move on to the power.
00:14:07
Speaker
We embrace both of those. I wish that were true everywhere. Sadly, it is. As you said, you're right. The Christian world very tragically can oftentimes be divided into word camp and spirit camp, where in the word camp all they do is talk about theological precision. Well, I believe in that theological precision. Who wants to be theologically inaccurate or wrong? Spirit churches, charismatic churches,
00:14:37
Speaker
They say, we want to be spirit empowered. We want to see God do the stuff through us. We want to see people heal. We want to see words of knowledge being given that console and encourage. And we embrace that as well. But I don't believe we have to play these off one against the other. Simple fact of the matter is, God doesn't give us a choice. It's not an option. You can either be word or spirit. I don't think the New Testament gives us
00:15:07
Speaker
that freedom. We are required by God to be both. And it's not easy. I confess, I tell people all the time, really striving for the convergence of word and spirit and being committed to both is not easy. Human nature tends to gravitate toward one of the other extreme. And that's when you get yourself in trouble. And I am committed, we are committed here, and I know a lot of other churches that are as well, to embracing both.
00:15:37
Speaker
and to doing it in a way that honors God and blesses his people. Yeah. No, and I just want to attest to what you said as somebody who has dialed in and listened to numerous messages of yours. I think that is so true. I think that's what makes you so unique in a variety of ways is that, I mean, you are a sharp mind, a great expositor, a great theologian, and yet what you were describing in terms of just the practical
00:16:05
Speaker
outworking of how to exercise the gifts is very evident in your gatherings. And so it reminds me, I had the opportunity to attend several services at the Columbus Vineyard years ago when Rich Nathan was passing. Of course, they're a part of the vineyard there, but very similar where Rich is an incredible expositor of God's Word. And yet there's also just a very ordinary expression of the gifts on a Sunday morning.
00:16:33
Speaker
And so that's something I've always really appreciated about your ministry. And so let's get back, I know you've already touched on this a bit, but let's get really basic, really simple here. As you know, 1 Corinthians 12, Paul starts out in verse one by talking about how he doesn't want the believers there in Corinth to be uninformed about the gifts. And so to be really simple, really basic here, just describe again, what a spiritual gift is and where you typically see those
00:17:03
Speaker
those lists of gifts in the New Testament.
Defining Spiritual Gifts
00:17:06
Speaker
Sure, yeah. I always stick with Paul's language. He defines a spiritual gift explicitly in verse 7 of 1 Corinthians 12. He says, to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. And then he begins to unpack, at least in his initial list, nine of those. So a spiritual gift is the Spirit of God
00:17:32
Speaker
manifesting himself through the lives and the efforts of individual believers. So this idea that, you know, we have this idea, we use the word gift and we think, okay, God's handing me a package wrapped up in, you know, tissue paper or the ribbon tied around it. No, it's not a thing. Gifts are God himself.
00:17:53
Speaker
coming to visible, vocal expression in and through the ministry efforts of Christian individuals. It's manifesting the spirit. So gifts really are the spirit himself coming to visible, vocal expression in the life of God's people for their upbuilding. So that's the way I define a spiritual gift. It's the manifestation of the spirit. Now in terms of where they're listed,
00:18:22
Speaker
There are several listings, none of which, by the way, are exhaustive. They're all representative. In my book, Understanding Spiritual Gifts, A Comprehensive Guide, which is the most recent book that I wrote, it's about 370 pages. I think it's probably the last book I'll write on this subject. I conclude that there are probably 20 or 21 gifts mentioned in the New Testament. You have nine of them in 1 Corinthians 12, 8 through 10.
00:18:48
Speaker
Then at the end of Chapter 12, in verses 28 through 30, he lists another listing of gifts, and he includes a few that he didn't mention in the earlier one. In 1 Corinthians 13, he mentions a couple more. Romans Chapter 12, verses 6 through 8. Ephesians 4, 11. 1 Peter 4, 10 and 11. These are the places where these gifts are listed. Again, as I said, none of them are identical. They're all representative.
00:19:18
Speaker
You have to go to the book of Acts on occasion to see how these gifts operate in real life. So, my own conviction is, and this catches some people by surprise, I say, why do we think that the only possible gifts of the Spirit are those explicitly mentioned in Scripture? Could it be that there are additional spiritual gifts? Now, when I say yes to that question, people need to understand
00:19:48
Speaker
If there are gifts beyond the ones mentioned in the New Testament, they have to operate under the same guidelines and principles and for the same purposes, those that are mentioned in scriptures. So people say, well, what gifts would those be? And I can think of three. I think, for example, of deliverance ministry. Now, all Christians have authority over demonic spirits, but I have noticed in many individuals a unique capacity and authority
00:20:17
Speaker
when they operate in the area of delivering people from demonic oppression. Could that be a spiritual gift? Might be. Then there is the gift of intercession. Now, again, all of us intercede. All of us are supposed to pray. But there are some Christians, and I'm sure you could probably identify a few in your own church. They just want to live in the prayer closet. They want to live on their knees. They just have this burning desire to continue to pray constantly for people. That might be a spiritual gift.
00:20:46
Speaker
And then one more is what I would call the gift of interpretation. And I don't mean by that, the interpretation of tongues. I mean, what we see, for example, in Daniel. Remember when Daniel was told the dream of Nebuchadnezzar and he said, and all of Nebuchadnezzar's, his assistance in the court couldn't make sense of it.
00:21:10
Speaker
And Daniel interpreted the dream. He gave the meaning of it and the application of it. And he said, interpretation comes from the Lord. Same thing with Joseph. So maybe there is a gift of interpretation. For example, I'll just give you an illustration. Had a lady come up to me yesterday. She said, Sam, I had a powerful dream and she shared the, all the details of the dream was really insightful. She says, what does that mean? And I said,
00:21:36
Speaker
I don't know. I'm not good at interpreting dreams, but I know some people in our church who can. So maybe there's a general gift of interpretation where people are enabled by the spirit to make sense of the symbolism that oftentimes is found in dreams. So again, maybe 2021 gifts listed in the New Testament, maybe at least three more, maybe there are others as well, but they are all manifestations of the spirit. They are the spirit himself.
00:22:06
Speaker
manifesting his presence and his power through us. Yeah, that's good. Sort of as a follow-up to that, do you see evidence in the New Testament for those gifts being, and maybe it's both, more temporary or permanent? I think I come from a tradition very much like yours. You went to Moody Bible Institute and did graduate work at Grace and then Biola, and so come from
00:22:36
Speaker
from that background and generally in those camps, those schools, the gifts are thought to be more permanent. You have this one gift or these two gifts. And it's typically not emphasized that God may give certain gifts in a situation or set of circumstances that might be temporary. But what is your thought on that? I do not see anything in the New Testament that would lead me to classify gifts as either temporary or permanent.
00:23:06
Speaker
I don't see that anywhere in the New Testament. I do see a distinction between what I would call residential and circumstantial gifts, what I would call permanent residing gifts and occasional gifts. So what I mean by that is this. There are some spiritual gifts that are always in the possession of the person whom they are given. So for example,
00:23:33
Speaker
You and I, I trust, have the spiritual gift of teaching. You can wake me up at 2.30 in the morning out of a dead sleep and I'll come out of my stupor's teaching. I mean, I can do it at the drop of a hat. I don't need a special moment. My wife, for example, has the gift of mercy and serving. She can do that anytime she wants. It's a permanently residing residential gift in her. But gifts like
00:24:01
Speaker
healing, for example, or prophecy, or word of knowledge. I would call those circumstantial or occasional. And what I mean by that is this. God bestows those gifts on a person or through a person, depending on the circumstances in which they find themselves. Or they occasionally manifest themselves, but not all the time. So for example, I'll give you an illustration.
00:24:30
Speaker
I was at a meeting one time where the speaker said, look, if the gift of healing is still operative today, let's go down to the local hospital and empty the cancer ward. And my response was I, with all due respect, I think you horribly misunderstood what the gift of healing is. It's not something in my back pocket. It's not something I can exercise at my will. It is an occasional gift that I can only exercise when God wills according to his timetable.
00:24:58
Speaker
Same would be true of prophecy. I don't think we have prophecy that is subject to our will. Like I can prophesy anytime I want. I can teach anytime I want. I can't prophesy anytime I want. That's only when God chooses to disclose something to me that he wants me to communicate to that person in that particular situation. So no, I don't see anything that would lead me to think some gifts are in a special category of temporary. Others are permanent.
00:25:28
Speaker
gifts that are occasional, as over against gifts that are residential. They reside, they're always there in the individual. Yeah, that's good. That's a very helpful distinction. I want to kind of just take another step and talk about some of the gifts you just mentioned. And these gifts tend to be the more controversial gifts. You know, the gift of tongues, the gift of healing, the gift of prophecy. And so I know we could spend hours talking more about all of the gifts or other gifts.
00:25:56
Speaker
But I'd love for you to kind of speak to those gifts in particular. I mean, give just a short definition, if you will, or explanation of those three gifts. And I want to kind of talk, we're going to end here in just a little bit about talking more practically about how somebody who thinks they might have some of these gifts can use them or walk into them. But would you just sort of describe those gifts for our listeners?
Understanding Prophecy, Tongues, and Healing
00:26:24
Speaker
Sure. Sure.
00:26:26
Speaker
The simplest definition I know is that prophecy is speaking in merely human words, something the Spirit of God has brought to mind. So for example, when you read 1 Corinthians 14, Paul says, let two or three prophets speak, let the others weigh what is said. And if a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent, for you can all prophesy one by one. So here's prophecy is the speaking forth
00:26:54
Speaker
of a revelation that comes from the Holy Spirit. Now, not all revelation, people need to know this, not all revelation is canonical. In other words, not all revelation ends up as a book in the Bible. There is non-canonical revelation. It simply means the Spirit disclosing or unveiling something to an individual. So prophecy is speaking forth in merely human words, something God has brought to mind.
00:27:21
Speaker
And in every prophecy, this is very important for people to understand. In every prophecy, there are three elements. There's the revelation, the interpretation, and the application. The revelation is always infallible. It's always true. God never says anything errant. But we don't always interpret the meaning of what He has revealed correctly. I mean, think about when you and I preach or teach, we've got the revelation of God in black and white right in front of us in our Bibles.
00:27:51
Speaker
But we misinterpret it sometimes. We misapply it. That happens with a prophetic revelation. So God can reveal something. He can disclose it to an individual. But they didn't have to interpret it. Sometimes they misinterpret it. They have to apply it. Sometimes they misapply it. So that's why I speak of fallible prophetic words. I don't speak of fallible revelation. All revelation from God is infallible, inerrant. But there's fallible interpretation and application.
00:28:22
Speaker
I believe that the gift of tongues as described in 1 Corinthians 14 is primarily. Not a human language like Mandarin or Swahili or Russian that I may never have studied before. I think it's a unique capacity crafted by the Holy Spirit for each individual to whom he gives this gift that enables us to pray and to give thanks and to worship God.
00:28:48
Speaker
in a way beyond our normal speech patterns. So in other words, when I reach the end of, it seems like I've run out of words to say when I'm praying or when I'm praising, I can pray in tongues. I can sing in tongues. It's a way that transcends my own linguistic capacities. I don't understand what I'm saying, but that's not important. God does. He knows perfectly well because it's the spirit who has crafted that utterance.
00:29:18
Speaker
that comes through me. Healing. Again, it's very interesting when you look at Paul's reference to healing in 1 Corinthians 12. He mentions it twice. He mentions it, for example, in verse 9 in 1 Corinthians 12 and then again in verse 30 and 28 and 30 of 1 Corinthians 12.
00:29:49
Speaker
And he uses the plural. He says gifts, plural, of healings, plural. And I think by that, he's saying to us, there's no such thing as the gift of healing, the singular gift of healing that would enable somebody to heal everybody at any time of every disease. That gift never existed. It doesn't exist now. Rather, there are a multiplicity of differing gifts for a multiplicity of different healings.
00:30:16
Speaker
So God might grant me a gift to pray for somebody with a migraine headache and they get healed. Then I might turn around and pray for somebody else five seconds later who has an arthritic knee and nothing happens. Why? It's because God didn't give me a gift for the healing of an arthritic knee. He only gave me a gift for the healing of a migraine headache. So again, I think if we pay careful attention to the language that we find in scripture,
00:30:44
Speaker
will avoid some of the mistakes and the extremes that people make. How do you see these gifts or how, you know, obviously you're not just a great theologian and author, but you're a pastor. And so on a very practical level, I mean, you're taking these theological convictions and shepherding a group of people and as you and I both know,
00:31:10
Speaker
you know, we've seen the misuse of these gifts in a corporate setting. And of course, the Apostle Paul spends so much time in 1 Corinthians 14 talking about orderly worship and safeguarding, you know, what happens in those corporate settings. And so as a pastor, like what advice would you give? What encouragement would you give or maybe warning for somebody who thinks they might have these gifts? Like what's the best way to begin exercising these gifts in a corporate setting?
00:31:37
Speaker
or maybe what things should we avoid doing in a corporate setting? Sure. Let's be honest, it's very difficult to do it in a corporate setting. When you have four, five, 600 people or more in a room, it's very difficult for those gifts to be exercised. I tell people the best place both to exercise them and to learn is in small group gatherings where you have anywhere from 12 to maybe 18 people.
00:32:03
Speaker
Uh, everybody knows everyone else. You feel safe. You feel comfortable. You're willing to take risks. So I think either in one-on-one settings with a person or in on small groups, that's the ideal setting. Now, as far as the corporate gathering is concerned, here's what we do at Bridgeway. Uh, we orchestrate our order of service so that we have anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes at the end of the service for people to exercise their gifts. Um,
00:32:33
Speaker
If somebody feels like God has laid on their heart a revelation, or they're supposed to pray for a particular person to be healed of a particular affliction, or whatever else it may be, they have to come to me. And I'm kind of the point person, and they process it with me. And I make a judgment call as to whether they've really heard from God. And if they have, is this meant for them individually? Is it meant for the church corporately? Who should share it? Should they? Should I?
00:33:02
Speaker
We have about probably 30 to 35 people who don't need to process it through me simply because they're mature, they're experienced. I've seen them minister before and I trust their judgment. So this is developed over time. This isn't something that just happened overnight. We've worked on this, this process for quite some time. But of course there are other times, for example, I'll just give you an illustration. I think it was about three weeks ago.
00:33:32
Speaker
I felt the urge to, kind of right at the end of my sermon, to pray for the sick in our Congress. In fact, it was on Pentecost Sunday. And I said, all right, this is the way we do it at Bridgeway. I said, if anybody here has any affliction, no matter how mild or serious and you want to be prayed for, stand up. And there probably had 40 to 50 people who stood up. And then I said, all right.
00:34:00
Speaker
Find somebody you know, look around, who's standing up. I want five, six, seven of you to go gather around each of these individuals. I'm going to pray corporately for a moment, and then I want you to pray individually for them. And I got a testimony the other day from a man by email of just a profound healing of diverticulitis. I had another man who came up to me yesterday and testified to his back being healed on that Sunday. So we commission all Christians to pray
00:34:31
Speaker
Whether or not God chooses to grant a gift for a healing to any individual is something we can't control. That's up to God's sovereignty. So we try to make it possible for certain people to exercise gifts in a corporate gathering, but honestly, it's hard. We need to remember that when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 14 and described it happening there, he's talking about a church that may have been at most 100 people, maybe most 75, meeting in a courtyard of a large home.
00:35:00
Speaker
He wasn't describing what was going on in a church of 500 to 1,000. It's an entirely different dynamic. So I think the small home group gathering is more analogous to what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 14 than is our large Sunday morning megachurch service. Yeah, that's good. Let me ask you one final question here. Because what you've described
00:35:29
Speaker
I think is so helpful, so encouraging. It will clarify a lot of things for so many folks. And so I wanna ask one final question though. Speak to this question. Why is this question about gifts so important for the health and the mission of the church today? Yeah, that is an important question. Let me give an analogy. If I was going to remodel one of the bedrooms in my home,
00:35:58
Speaker
And I hired somebody to do it. And they came in all ready to go to work. And all they had was a screwdriver and a hammer. I would probably be a little concerned. If you're going to do that kind of work, you need the tools. Well, it's the same way in building the body of Christ and building up the kingdom as expressed in the local church. We need all the tools that God has made available.
00:36:23
Speaker
to think that we're going to build up the body of Christ, edify, encourage, console, and so on, and not make use of the tools that God has made available to us.
Necessity of Spiritual Gifts for Church Health
00:36:34
Speaker
We're really selling short what can be accomplished in the local church. We like some of the tools. We like teaching. We like service. We like some of those gifts, like giving. But God has said, no, I've got at least 20, maybe 23 or 24 of these tools that I have
00:36:52
Speaker
supplied you and I want you to make use of all of them. There's only so much I can do through my gift of teaching. There's so many more things that people need in order to come to an understanding of the glory of God's love and the grace of Christ and how he wants them to live that comes through gifts other than just teaching.
00:37:16
Speaker
So I think if we really want to build up the body, we have to make use of all the resources that God has given us, the word of God and the spirit of God, working in tandem to bring about the building up of the body of Christ to the glory of Christ. That is well said. And so that's just a great place to end our conversation. And so that is so good and so helpful. So thank you again for
00:37:43
Speaker
your time and again expertise. I know this is gonna be a great encouragement to our Root Like Faith family. And so thank you again for taking the time to talk with me today. Been my pleasure anytime. Wasn't that a fabulous conversation with Dr. Sam Storms? We are so grateful that you have joined us. If we haven't met yet, we want to get to know you. So be sure to follow us on Instagram at Patrick W. Schwank and at Ruth Schwank or on Facebook.
00:38:10
Speaker
Also, don't forget that everything we talked about today with Dr. Sam storms, it's at our website. So go to rootlikefaith.com forward slash podcast. Again, we welcome you into our family here at root like faith. Would you do us a big favor and leave us a reviewer rating and share this podcast with your friends. It just takes a second and it's a tremendous help to us as we spread the word about root like faith and be sure to tag us on social media. When you do that, we're so, so grateful for your help and getting the word out.
00:38:40
Speaker
Okay friend, well we will chat soon and we hope you have a great week!