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Episode 456: Neko Case Wrote her Memoir in Bed
408 Plays6 days ago
Neko Case is best known for her career as a musical performing artist and as a founding member of The New Pornographers, but her debut memoir The Harder I Fight the More I Love You (Grand Central) is all the evidence we need to see that she's got the chops for narrative.
Promotional Sponsor: The Power of Narrative Conference. Use CNF15 at checkout for a 15% discount.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Pre-order Promotion
00:00:01
Speaker
AC&Fers, as you know, the frontrunner is available for pre-order. The Life of Stieprefontaine. If you have a few extra bucks and you care to read it, consider pre-ordering it from the bookseller of your choice.
Podcast Sponsorship
00:00:16
Speaker
and also promotional support for the podcast. It's brought to you by the Power of Narrative Conference. couple weeks' time at the end of this month, 26th annual conference over March 28th and 29th.
00:00:27
Speaker
Hundreds of journalists from around the world descend on Boston University. Keynote speakers include Susan Orlean, Connie Schultz, Dan Zak, and Connie Chung. Listeners to this podcast can get 15% off the enrollment fee by using the code CNF15.
00:00:44
Speaker
To learn more, go to combeyond.bu.edu and use that CNF15 code.
Conversational Writing
00:00:58
Speaker
three days' right if feel fucked up and you know depressed I like to write books that sound more like someone telling a story over a campfire. Then you got to keep moving on because tick tick, you know, tick tock. This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
Nico Case's New Memoir
00:01:16
Speaker
Oh, hey, senior members. Look came by the podcast. It's Nico Case, the musician, the songwriter, founding member of the new Pornographers, a Grammy-nominated artist. Her new memoir is The Harder I Fight, The More I Love You.
00:01:29
Speaker
It's published by Grand Central. It's wonderful book with these great little flourishes of sentences. To use a cooking term, it kicks ass. This is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and crafts telling true stories. You might even say, I talk to the tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell this book.
00:01:49
Speaker
deals with themes of loneliness, finding one's place, the development and maturity of a young woman who is an unwanted child. Animals saved her, so did music, and the book really is a testament to a flame that won't, nay, can't burn out.
Show Notes and Resources
00:02:05
Speaker
Show notes for this episode more at brendanomera.com. There you can read blog posts, my anti-social media feed, sign up for the flagship newsletter, The Rage Against the Algorithm.
00:02:15
Speaker
Book racks, cool links, hot goss. It's all there. ah My latest issue, The Anatomy of a Book Advance, was a pretty popular one with subscribers. Got a lot of feedback, and it shed a bit of light into the mechanics of mine for the Prefontaine book.
00:02:31
Speaker
Next one could be different. Could be less, could be more. My living situation could change. You never know. Stay tuned. Also, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm experimenting with it, so bear with me.
00:02:45
Speaker
I know. and know. i just threw up a little in my mouth. I'm starting a podcast-specific email sub-stack. I'm sorry. I'm starting an email-specific email sub...
00:02:56
Speaker
so create a CreativeNonFictionPodcast.substack.com. That will come out as a companion for each interview. Full transcripts, nearly accurate. They're never going to quite get there, but close enough.
00:03:08
Speaker
bit more sauce for each episode. and I think I'm going to put the parting shot in there, too. It'll be like show notes on juice. I might scrap it after a few months. Who knows? But I like the idea of each podcast having its own little newsletter.
00:03:22
Speaker
My mistake a few months ago was taking my existing rager audience, doing it once a week to coincide with the pod, and I lost a significant chunk of my list that I'm only now reclaiming.
00:03:34
Speaker
So starting this new list, and maybe that'll appeal to you if you want transcripts, the parting shot, and other podcast ephemera.
Zoom Interview with Nico Case
00:03:43
Speaker
All right, so since Nico didn't have a Chrome browser, which is a prerequisite to record with my Zencaster software, ah we couldn't record on my usual portal, if you will. So we had to use Zoom, and I don't have a fancy Zoom account.
00:04:01
Speaker
For those that know, that means you only get 40 minutes. So I had to cut this conversation off just shy of 40 minutes, the raw tape. So, Nico is laying in her hotel bed, wrung out from an onslaught of book media and the exhaustion that comes with having to talk about yourself all the time with ah weirdos like me.
00:04:19
Speaker
So, uh, that's where we're at. Stay tuned for a parting shot on luck. But for now, here's the indomitable spirit of the one and only Nico Case Riff.
00:04:43
Speaker
You know, you write that it is my first book and I'm so excited and nervous about it. And, um you know, you're someone who's written a lot of music, performed in front of a lot of a lot of people. But ah but this one, you know, made you nervous in a different way. And I was wondering maybe you can ah explain ah how this compares or how this one has made you nervous in ah in an entirely new different new new way.
Memoir Writing Challenges
00:05:03
Speaker
Never written a book before. Don't know if anybody's going to want to read it, especially because it's about me specifically. And I don't know about you, but when I think about talking about myself in front of people, it's like, oh, no, that I can think of something way more more exciting to talk about and not bore the crap out of them. So I think people are just hesitant to talk about themselves in that regard.
00:05:27
Speaker
if If I had my druthers, I never would have written a memoir because it just wouldn't occur to me. i i When I heard that there was going to be a book offer from Hachette, Grand Central, i i um initially was like, oh, I would love to write fiction. And I have been working on a book for a long time.
00:05:44
Speaker
um And so... you know Then we came to the first meetings and um they wanted a memoir. and They said, we're going to pay you to write it a memoir. and i and I said, memoir it is. It's the height of COVID.
00:06:00
Speaker
I really needed money. and That sounds like I'm saying that I didn't like the idea or that they twist some my arm, which was not the case at all. i just I just pivoted. I was like, oh, well, I've never done that. I don't know how that's going to be, but you know I'm willing to try it. and Luckily, I had um Colin Dickerman, who was the person who gave me the book deal, who's my main editor, was so helpful. And then I worked with an incredible editor and author named Carrie Fry, who made the the whole experience really fun because writing is one of the funner things to me. i love doing it, but writing about myself...
00:06:38
Speaker
It's hard to just not kind of sometimes feel like you're driving through mud and going, this is so boring. Who wants to know this? So Carrie was great at giving me prompts and helping me like get my car out of the mud kind of a thing.
00:06:52
Speaker
It's especially true, you're talking about the, you know, your your own words or the story just feels boring to you, and especially after you've gone through so many drafts. You're like, you kind of lose the electricity of it after a while, just from from your own lens.
00:07:09
Speaker
Absolutely. how did you persevere through that, what wondering whether, like, oh my God, is is this any good? You know, i i became friends with Carrie and I had a lot of faith and a lot of trust in her.
00:07:21
Speaker
and i also, i Went into a contractual marriage, basically, with Colin Dickerman. And, you know, I didn't do that lightly. That was also a researched and very trustworthy relationship. So, you know, at that point, you got to put your money where your mouth is and you have to go.
00:07:41
Speaker
I've hired you to help me. You've hired me to write for you. We have to trust each other and we have to have the same end goal. So it it worked
Focusing on Childhood in Memoir
00:07:48
Speaker
out. you know Memoir Done Well is use is a ah slice of a life, and and most most of this takes place in your childhood and your adolescence and young adulthood.
00:07:59
Speaker
When did you know, when did it crystallize for you to to focus in that particular, you know or those particular moments ah of your life and your early upbringing? Well, I focused on a lot more than actually ended up in the book. And then they were kind of cherry picked from what I did. Right. So I kind of overwrote.
00:08:17
Speaker
And then and the help of Carrie and Colin, it was whittled down to something more cohesive, I think. what What was refreshing about your book also is that you know ah with when memoirs come out from musicians, a lot of people think it's kind of like you know the classic rock memoir of all this, all the just ah you know that particular archetype. And you know this one, if I didn't know you were a musician, there was this just reads like a really good memoir who you know happens to be a musician as well, but not like this origin story of how to play in front of thousands of thousands of people.
00:08:53
Speaker
ah So like, you know, was that on your mind just to steer clear of that particular sort of well-worn groove, well-worn road? I'm not like Fleetwood Mac. You know how Fleetwood Mac being Fleetwood Mac is people is a story enough.
00:09:09
Speaker
And yeah sometimes they get to the music like, I don't know. I just didn't have like i I'm not. ah super exciting person. Like i I spend all my time working and I work on a very exciting thing.
00:09:24
Speaker
So that that's where it gets a little confusing. It's like, oh, it's musician, it's music, it's all this other stuff. But mostly i was more interested in what it was about creativity and it about making things that was so ah heightened and so, you know, igniting, as far as you know, the feeling of joy or energy, like how does joy and creation become an engine for you?
00:09:53
Speaker
Yeah. And you saying yeah not being a super exciting person. again I think I've read ah somewhere from ah it might be Austin Kleon and he might have quoted someone else who's saying like, i i like to be boring in life and very exciting in my art.
00:10:08
Speaker
And is that something that you kind of adhere to, too? Like if you can lead, you know, you you can turn the dial up on your art if you're able to kind of keep maybe a governor on the engine of your normal life. Well, I think, you know, my friends would say differently. i i think that I'm a fun person and if you're one of my friends. But, you know, I i don't want want to overwhelm every stranger I meet.
00:10:29
Speaker
you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, you don't, you don't want to overwhelm the person serving you dinner in a restaurant. Like you you want to be kind and polite and, and, you know, maybe have a conversation with them if they're willing to do it, but it's not, I don't need to, to do that for everyone. Cause as a human being, your energy has limits.
00:10:49
Speaker
For sure. Oh, you gotta budget your energy. and ah And in the book too, what what um struck me as almost a ah theme, if you want to call it that, is a real palpable sense of loneliness and aloneness. And I think you write about this particularly well. And that struck a chord with me as someone, ah as just as a child of divorce and having spending a lot of time on my own latchkey kid and all that. I got a sense of that that loneliness. And I wonder just for you,
00:11:18
Speaker
At what point where you were you like, oh, this is this is definitely a part of my child that I really want to lean on ah for the for the for just as an engine for the story? Well, I mean, it's kind of all I had to lean on because that was most of my childhood. I spent most of my childhood by myself, the bulk of it.
00:11:35
Speaker
So there wasn't really alternate experience to to really go from. You know what I mean? Oh, for sure.
Childhood Bond with Animals
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think early on to you, you really had a connection with, with animals and horses too. And I think, uh, and it probably let your imagination go wild too. It's like, in what way did you try to become your own best friend just to keep yourself company or animals to have, you know, give you that comfort?
00:12:04
Speaker
Well, it was never a conscious choice that I made because I was a little kid. And when you're a little kid, you're very involved in the doing and the moving forward um rather than like planning your time. At least I was. And I mean, there's probably kids like that who like to plan their time, but I was a very in the moment person. And, you know, those moments were just really, really, really long.
00:12:28
Speaker
But animals were always consistent. Yeah. Always. They were always glad to see you They were always friendly. And i just, I was so bonded with them. And they they helped raise me for sure.
00:12:44
Speaker
There's a ah section of the book also where um you're with one one of your friends and I believe her mother, I believe the mother was named Eileen. Is that is that correct?
00:12:55
Speaker
Or the, yeah. and I love when you are spending time with them and you're exposed to just an entirely different
00:13:05
Speaker
breed of love. And i um maybe just like take us to that moment of just like what, you know, just how disorienting that must have been to experience, you know, how how other families coexist and exist with each other.
00:13:18
Speaker
I felt like being in a warm shower, you know, how when suddenly you're in the shower and you feel your shoulders disconnect from your neck and you just savor that feeling of being in warm water. It's felt like that.
00:13:32
Speaker
I felt like I was sawing out a little bit. felt so good. It wasn't until I was about, like, that there was that moment, and then there was a big gulf between that moment and, you know, being like 21 meeting people After being really into punk rock and music and stuff, meeting people whose parents were okay with that and liked them and were interested in their friends.
00:13:58
Speaker
So that was like, there was like the second wave of that that happened too. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I liked also the you know moment where you where you where you bond with another young man who was like working on cars. I'm blanking on his name.
00:14:16
Speaker
um But the two of you were just kind of like two lonely spirits just enjoying each other's company, like fixing cars. And I thought that was a really touching moment of like true friendship that didn't... ah yeah It didn't need anything else other than your company and them working on cars. I just thought that was a really good illustration of like what that means when two people who are kind of introverted and kind of shy find each other and find a common interest.
00:14:42
Speaker
Yeah. And he was quite a bit older than me, too. So, you know, it was according. to My friends were a little worried about it. Like, what are you doing hanging out with this older guy? Like, you know, they were like, does he have ulterior motives? And I was like, nah.
00:14:56
Speaker
And he didn't. And so we we really just liked hanging out, working on cars and talking about cars and having a cigarette and drinking a beer while working on a car. It was a really good feeling.
00:15:09
Speaker
Yeah. And I i always ah like talking about ah sometimes like that the headspace of a writer or creative person. um you know In particular, jealousy is always a good thread to pull on.
00:15:22
Speaker
And that was one of the there are a couple passages and in in the book that really struck me. The first one was when you um you when you had met ah Jennifer Finch. There's an awesome passage of this the the entire book, the way you interface there and the jealousy that you were feeling and kind of how your hackles were raised because you weren't at at that at at her stage and you were seeing yourself as less than in that moment.
00:15:48
Speaker
You hadn't quite yeah arrived. And was maybe you can take us to that moment, just kind of the that those feelings that you were feeling at that at that time. Well, I had a boyfriend who was a tour manager for a very popular band and, you know know, we would run into people all the time and women who were really, you know, well revered in music in that regard, like, especially in that kind of music scene, know you know, was pretty rare, but I remember meeting her and, you know, it's nothing she would ever even remember.
00:16:21
Speaker
can't, I, there's no way I'm sure she would remember it or, and I'm glad because I I was kind of like a weirdo. So, you know, I wouldn't want to put that on her, you know, that's not her thing.
00:16:33
Speaker
But she seemed like a really nice person and and she was so outgoing and comfortable in her own skin. And I remember just thinking like, no, I'm not ready to meet you yet. I'm not, I'm not done.
00:16:46
Speaker
I'm not like when I'm at your level, I want to meet you. But right now I, I just feel like, Like your are burning flame is is too hot for me, which is so stupid because what I learned from that is, no the the burning flame is a warm place to be and you should...
00:17:09
Speaker
not be weird about meeting. I mean, I think it was just, you know, I grew up at a time, well a different flavor of misogyny, you know, patriarchal loathing.
Overcoming Jealousy in Music Industry
00:17:20
Speaker
Like I was definitely brought up to be a misogynist. Like there's not room for more than a couple of women.
00:17:26
Speaker
So clearly you're taking up my spot. You know, there was, there was a lot of that. And it's not, it's ridiculous. It's so fabricated. And so, and then when you realize you've been that way, you just loathe yourself. You're like, oh, I've been feeling this way about this other person that I don't even know for no good reason. Like competitive behavior, that's sports. And I want nothing to do with that shit.
00:17:53
Speaker
Like that whole competitive thing. like I'm on this team, you're on that team. that I hate it i think it's so childish and so unhealthy um I don't mean like let's play let's play tennis together or like let's go play touch football like that stuff is fun but the weird competitive I was definitely that weird male sports competitive and I did not it did not it just made me sick like it was not healthy
00:18:25
Speaker
Now, given that you've been to a professional touring musician for a few decades, have you been on the other side of that where maybe you've sensed a similar pang from, say, like an another up and coming artist now that you're you you're far more established?
00:18:44
Speaker
No, no, I'm hoping that I kind of came along at the tail end of that where people weren't. i I find that I see women really supporting other women.
00:18:55
Speaker
in music, like we've kind of figured out like, oh, that was a scam. Yeah, that was bad. And, you know, the feeling of supporting other women is so rewarding that I can't imagine it any other way.
00:19:09
Speaker
That other way is just like this weird, you're starving yourself to death in a hateful little prison. but That doesn't work for anybody. Right. Yeah. And kind of ah kind of piggybacking on on that feeling, you know, you write kind of a little bit later in the book, ah there's an ugliness and it can exist in making music, a jealous competitiveness of what you've just alluded to.
00:19:30
Speaker
that That can infect you when you lack confidence and make you feel like the only way to win is for someone else to lose. Over time, though, I got better at steering forward. Not perfect, just better.
00:19:42
Speaker
And when did that when did that click for you? At one point, I was called out by another woman that I knew in my local music scene. She was kind of like, why so nasty to me?
00:19:53
Speaker
i was like, you know what? I don't have a good reason. and I'm really sorry. i i think I was just jealous of you. And it felt so good to say. and I was so grateful that she said it to me.
00:20:05
Speaker
yeah We became friends and it was great. I like this other moment too, where do you had kind of had this battle of the bands thing going on and then you know, you, you, you guys were advancing and ah yeah, at one point you're like, you know, we suck. We won't win anyway. And then at one of your bandmates was like, do not say that shit anymore.
00:20:22
Speaker
We work just as hard. We practice and care, but what you're saying is fucked up and takes away from what we're doing. In some ways there, i i I get a sense of like sometimes as creative people, we can be as much as we are afraid of failure. Sometimes we can be afraid of success also. is that something Is that something you've experienced?
00:20:43
Speaker
Yeah. Just fear of everything. Yeah. know Like it it's embarrassing to be in the spotlight. Like I don't know that it's a natural Some people love it and some people are just really comfortable in it. And some people are terrified of it and, you know, the whole spectrum of feelings about it. But, you know, i feel comfortable enough in it to be myself.
00:21:07
Speaker
But beyond that, I'm not a reveler or hammy person. I don't think so. i would love to be that freewheeling, you know, because people who are kind of like that are often some of the funnier, you know, people.
00:21:24
Speaker
joy I always like talking to writers about kind of the the routines or rituals through which they you know start to organize their day so they can actually get some work done and get get words down on the page.
00:21:37
Speaker
How did you approach approach the writing of this of this book? Well, I had a really bizarre and freak thing happen where I've been a night owl my whole life.
00:21:51
Speaker
You know, always the kind of person who was up until 3 a.m. m and couldn't wake up very well before 10 a.m. And my whole life I was like that. um And then right at the beginning of starting to write this book, my body just decided it gets up at five now.
00:22:06
Speaker
which has to do with menopause, which has to do with, you know, hormones shifting and all that other stuff. But I really lucked out because waking up at 5 a.m., m I love it.
00:22:18
Speaker
And that's when I would do most of my work. I would just wake up, make myself a coffee, get back into bed, right, for a while with like animals all over me, just pinning me. i was like, well, I can't move them. I might as well just keep working. You know what I mean? yeah I use them as an excuse to just keep going.
00:22:34
Speaker
oh Nice. I ah I'm blinking on the poet's name right now. was watching um yeah the publisher Tin House in Grey Wolf. They did this kind of ah spring catalog the thing online where it was just like they feature some of their authors who have books coming out. And he did a lot of his writing um in his in his bed, which he called the the soft office.
00:22:58
Speaker
Which I thought was great. And you say writing in your bed. I'm like, oh, it's soft, soft. off Yeah. And like every, every single thing you write about being an effective person says don't write in your bed, but I'm sorry. It's just, it feels good. Just write in your bed if you want to.
00:23:12
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, whenever you encroach on the the inherent self-doubt that comes with writing, you know, narrative and writing memoir in particular, you know, you know you've had decades of experience ah of writing
Memoir vs. Songwriting
00:23:27
Speaker
songs. But, you know, this is ah altogether different muscle, I imagine.
00:23:31
Speaker
So, you know, when you encroached upon that boundary, you know, how did how did you, you know, push push through that and ah and still achieve what you set out to do? and That would be, i would have to attribute that to Carrie Fry, who would always just make it fun and remind me other things.
00:23:50
Speaker
Because, like I said, you know, thinking about myself isn't something I, I'm like, i'm going to think about myself a whole lot, and then I'm going to write it down for other people.
00:24:01
Speaker
it's I don't know how natural that is. It's a little weird. Yeah. when there's ah I like to, I think it was page 184, at least of the copy of the book that I had, early copy. ah You talk about writing a writer us writing a song and constructing a song and kind of building out the world of it and i'm working forward and backward and everything. And I wonder just is for you how the two processes compare, be it songwriting and the world building there and then you know memoir writing and the world you're building in that sandbox.
00:24:34
Speaker
Well, the world building and songwriting is from scratch. And then the world building and in the writing is, is from photographs. Like there's a realism that you really, i really, I really kind of put the screws to myself, like get the realism. And then I, I kind of realized, you know, not everybody needs to know what color the bedspread was, or if it's exactly factually correct, you know, just get,
00:25:00
Speaker
the most of it you can in there and not be such a control freak. And when you were setting out, you know, various, you know, story beats and just trying to extract from your deep memory, ah what did you, yeah what were some exercises you did? You mentioned photographs, but ah to to rekindle those fires to get to that place of truth and experience, how did you, you know, best mine your memory um if you have any exercises you did that are particularly ah effective? Well,
00:25:31
Speaker
I took a lot of courses from Linda Barry, who's one of my favorite writers and cartoonists and artists in general of all time. And she is an absolute genius at coming up with ways to jog your memory or to make something more fun, like make a list of all all your all the cars you can remember of your childhood or, you know, those things...
00:25:55
Speaker
Ignite so much and then rekindle so much of of what there was. And theirre little gate they're little detail gateways into places that you might not be able to get into from another direction.
00:26:06
Speaker
I would, like, if anybody wanted to try those, and writing by hand is really good for you, too, because your hand is doing it's something it knows how to do, and your brain is a little freer. So I would say if anybody was looking for a way, um any of Linda Barry's books about memory or creative writing or, you know, writing the unthinkable, what is this? Or just any Linda Barry is so inspiring.
Empathy for Younger Self
00:26:33
Speaker
Books are are kind of made ah made of books and, you know, they they inform us, you know, whatever you read, you're like, oh, I kind of want to, maybe I can model after that. And I wonder just for you, what were some, you know, memoirs that you've read were that like, oh, that that struck a ah note that you wanted to kind of hit with your own.
00:26:51
Speaker
Well, I mean, Patti Smith's Just Kids is something that I'm like, well, you'll never do that good. But it's the bar, you know. And also, i was so embroiled in and delighted by um Ricky Lee Jones's autobiography, um Last Chance Texaco.
00:27:11
Speaker
I couldn't put it down and I just loved the way it read and I loved her empathy for her young self and her compassion. And she's just a phenomenal writer as Patti Smith is too.
00:27:26
Speaker
So, you know, I just, I really looked up to them for these particular chores. Oh, and you say empathy for you know her young self. When you were writing you know your own, ah to what extent or what empathy did you experience for your younger self?
00:27:44
Speaker
I've always had a lot of empathy for young me. i It was hard to figure things out without any guidance. And so, you know, i didn't want to be dishonest or make myself the star of everything.
00:27:57
Speaker
But I did want to outline things. How sometimes boundaries are so dull. They're not like spiky barbed wire like you would expect. there are other things that are just really that grind you down.
00:28:15
Speaker
And I also wanted to talk a lot about the joy. you know like that it's not a a bummer of a book. it's just it It has both dark and light and the things in between.
00:28:28
Speaker
I heard ah the other day on the your appearance on the Modern Love podcast and you you read an essay of this you know one woman who wanted to forgive her mom for just the of you know for her own um story. I believe the writer's name was Kate McCormick or Katie McCormick.
00:28:46
Speaker
I'll fact check that when I'm done. Um, but you know, in it struck you because you're like, you know, i'm not, I have no room for forgiveness for my own mother.
00:28:56
Speaker
And, you know, in writing, in writing this book, did you reach a place of establishing that forgiveness is off the table? Did you ever hit a point of, of empathy and, uh, for her, even though you don't care to forgive?
00:29:12
Speaker
Well, there was a lot of forgiving I did of my mother over the years, and there was a lot of empathy and a lot of compassion. i forgave her for a lot of things. Like, you know, it's not her fault that her young life was so horrible and she was so abused and terrible things happened to her.
00:29:29
Speaker
What I did not forgive her for was coming back time and time and time again after abandoning me, pretending that she was going to be a part of my life and... wanted to be a part of my life, which she would then rescind on a dime.
00:29:43
Speaker
I thought that was cruel. Absolutely something that was, she didn't have to do that and didn't really care how much it messed with me. so you know the forgiveness, I think I'm talking more about not so much like somebody being imperfect, just when people won't take responsibility for that and they don't care about the effect it has, especially if you're going to make the decision to go through with having a kid. You got to really think about it.
00:30:12
Speaker
Being an unwanted child is a horrible place to be. You write about that extremely well and like and poignant poignantly. And ah what what I think you do especially well, too, and you kind of alluded to it a moment ago, how you don't, um you know, being the center of the center of your own story, you don't necessarily want to be the hero of it because that almost makes memoir unreadable when the narrator is the hero.
00:30:36
Speaker
But because so many horrible things happen to you, it's like, yeah, we're with you along that along that sort of unwanted child trajectory. So like just how did you ensure that, you know, you didn't come across as and sort of an unsavory hero of your own story? and yeah I haven't a hard time articulating it, but you do it particularly well. And it sounds like your antenna were attuned to that frequency.
00:31:01
Speaker
It sounds like what you're asking is like, how hard is it to be unbiased? And are we even capable of being unbiased? Yeah, I don't think we're capable of being unbiased about. our parents.
00:31:13
Speaker
But yeah when things go a certain way, like, I'm not going to get the story exactly right. I'm not going to get my mother's perspective exactly right. So much was done with no care, or concern with how it would affect my life. I don't feel any obligation toward kindness, other than trying to be honest.
00:31:38
Speaker
and you know Towards the end, you know you write on on being a little bit strange of having fur and teeth and the shadows of the forest flickering across the back of your eyelids. And it's just a ah really sort of great animalistic coda.
00:31:53
Speaker
to to the book too. And I want you look as you're coming to the sort of the revelation of being comfortable in in that in that skin that you grew into, you know, just how you ah ah arrive at that kind of moment in the story, because so what was it about that that really struck you as ah as a really satisfying way to bring the book down for a landing?
Connection with Nature
00:32:13
Speaker
Well, I've never felt like wholly just a human being. Not because I'm not one, but because the way our society has divorced human beings from animals and from nature.
00:32:28
Speaker
It's a very sad place for our species to be. where We're just standing on the outside and it it's... It's the reason that we have horrible things like climate change, you know, the climate change that is not the natural climate change that also happens, but the kind where you're talking about greenhouse gases and horrible wildfires and in California and flooding in Vermont and, you know, North Carolina.
00:32:58
Speaker
we We do not understand our world. And it is so sad. it it is a parent to us. It is a family to us. And it is so nourishing and kind.
00:33:14
Speaker
while at the same time, it is not taking us personally. And we tend to, i think, just try to make everything human-like from a human lens.
00:33:28
Speaker
So we lack understanding and it's so lonely and we don't know why we're so lonely. We don't question it. We just live in a forward and consume a lot of plastic and it it it brings me great sadness.
00:33:44
Speaker
But I, as a younger person, remembered and still remember and still, you know, kind of hang around with nature and animals every day.
00:33:55
Speaker
and and I feel very held by them. I feel very at home with that. And i i want that for everyone. Because it's so healthy.
00:34:07
Speaker
It's so re reinvigorating. And I think it would make a lot of our societal collective depression kind of ebb.
00:34:19
Speaker
It would be really, really lovely. And as I bring these conversations down for a landing, I always love asking the guests, you know, you in this case, for just like a recommendation for the listeners. And that can just be anything that you're excited about. It could be as like a brand of coffee or a brand of socks or a long walk. I would leave that up to you, what you would recommend for for for their listeners.
00:34:42
Speaker
Well, I just finally, after owning the book since it came out, have finally started getting to read Split Tooth by Tanya Tagak, who I absolutely adore as an artist and a musician.
00:34:57
Speaker
And her writing is so beautiful. And the illustrations in the book are by Jaime Hernandez of Love and Rockets. And it's just a perfect, perfect book. And I just feel like I have a friend in my bag with me and I'm reading it very slowly because I don't want it to end. Oh, fantastic. Well, ah well, thanks for the time. Thanks for coming on i'm ah this ah little old podcast. podcast Well, thanks for having me on your podcast. i know it's no small thing and i appreciate you talking about my book and, and supporting ah a fellow artist. I mean, that's why we're here. This is the good stuff, you know?
00:35:44
Speaker
Thanks to Nico for slumming it. And thanks to the Power of Narrative Conference for their promotional support. If you're feeling froggy, you can always go to the bookseller of your choice and pre-order the Front Runner.
00:35:57
Speaker
And now, for a limited time, or maybe forever, I don't know, there's the podcast-specific Substack. CreativeNonfictionPodcast.substack.com. sign up form or embed or whatever the hell will be at brendanbayer.com.
00:36:13
Speaker
All right, I might blog about this or write about it for a magazine, a writing magazine, but I think I need to talk about it.
Role of Luck in Career
00:36:21
Speaker
And it's this thing called luck.
00:36:25
Speaker
A long time ago, I used to think that to get by in life or to get ahead in life, it was a matter of hard work. End of sentence. This is a time when I didn't understand mechanics of patriarchy and certainly privilege.
00:36:40
Speaker
That even though I grew up lower middle class, being a white cisgendered male meant I was born on third base. End of sentence.
00:36:52
Speaker
Or maybe on second base with a really good secondary lead, but let's say third base. My Prefontaine book only came into existence out of luck. Like, truly. I happened to start a podcast in 2013.
00:37:05
Speaker
I slogged my way through for more than a decade. I have a spouse who's the breadwinner, which kind of allowed me to not have to give up. and just go elsewhere with my career to make ends meet i did at times which is i think why my time line is so protracted and weird ah happened to meet a friend who thought it unacceptable that i didn't have an agent she put me in touch with one agent who didn't care for me And then she put me in touch with another one who told me I wasn't faming ah famous enough to publish a memoir, but was I working on something that might be more commercial?
00:37:45
Speaker
I happened to be keep keeping tabs on a Prefontaine project ahead of the 50th anniversary of his death in three years time. And boom, she said she could sell out on proposal. And she knew an editor who was a marathoner.
00:37:58
Speaker
And there happened to be nothing written on Prefontaine for decades. Luck all the way down. But here's where the hard work and perseverance enters. You have to be ready for when luck strikes.
00:38:12
Speaker
You have to have ah foundation, a desire to put in the time and the hours. Hard work isn't the only answer. It's table stakes, really. But it's not the answer that a lot of people who just think, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstrap, son.
00:38:27
Speaker
That's all it takes. If you're not where you want to be, you just have to work harder. I'll never forget, I have a niece who is kind of indoctrinated under that kind of ethos.
00:38:39
Speaker
And ah they had gotten a Peloton bike for Christmas a few years ago. And I was like, oh, this is cool. I would love one of these things. And she was like, better work harder. I was like, you want to say that again? That's what I thought. I didn't say that, but...
00:38:56
Speaker
She was like 11 years old. I was like, what the, what? Anyway, some have to work harder than others. I think I'm kind of lazy compared to many people. But if luck taps you on the shoulder and says, hey, B.O., it's your turn.
00:39:12
Speaker
What are you going to do with me? Can you hang on to me? And more importantly, how will you try and make others lucky? Setting aside the sophomoric humor lucky invites, this is the power of luck and how we can let its residue rub off on others as well.
00:39:30
Speaker
You see people who get certain jobs and maybe there's a guy who's like three years from retirement and you're right at the edge, right at the age to fill that slot when that person sunsets their career.
00:39:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think of TV anchors. It's all about timing if you want to anchor the CBS Evening News. and You have to be young but not too old, and you have to be kind of peaking at the time that, I don't know, Dan Rather is ready to retire.
00:40:00
Speaker
Metallica's timing was luck. Nirvana's timing was luck. Will the culture be ready for you when you're doing your thing at the height of your powers? And how best to court luck.
00:40:13
Speaker
I think learning new skills is paramount. I'm slowly starting to learn video. Years ago, I taught myself audio, and that has gotten me to a certain point. can always get better, of course, but like I took that upon myself. I'm not a radio guy. I just taught myself how to do it through sheer repetition and force of will.
00:40:31
Speaker
It gave me an audience that I could leverage into a book and hopefully many more. Batman had more than a grappling hook in his utility belt. Meeting people and serving the community courts luck.
00:40:44
Speaker
Being generous in the kind of person people want to help courts luck.
Sharing Luck and Generosity
00:40:48
Speaker
And if you're lucky to find some luck, you can't hoard it. Don't be a hanger-on. Don't lurk. you know Be a leader. doesn't mean you have to lead armies into battle, so to speak.
00:40:58
Speaker
It could just mean yeah a little bit of your community. Recognize the gift you've been given if you're lucky enough to have received it. Luck is infinite if you give it a chance.
00:41:10
Speaker
Your luck doesn't mean i get less luck. Luck multiplies. It amplifies. It can be painfully slow. Then it can be at the speed of light.
00:41:22
Speaker
Then it might disappear for a long time. It might never come back. It's really frustrating that way. It just is. And I wish you good luck. And I'll keep doing my best to pass whatever luck I come across along.
00:41:35
Speaker
So stay wild or lucky, CNFers. And if can't do interviews, see ya.