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Be a Student If You Want to Lead (Even If You’re Already an Expert)
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In this AI marketing podcast episode, Dan Sanchez and co-host Ken Freire take a skeptical look at how authority is claimed (and faked) online in 2025. In a world where everyone seems to be positioning themselves as a thought leader, Dan presents a counterintuitive approach to standing out: embrace the role of the student. Through stories from his own career and examples like Michael Hyatt, Dan unpacks how publicly learning out loud builds more trust and real authority than posturing ever could.
My Favorite AI Tools
- Tella (AI screen recording app I record all my solo episodes with) - https://danchez.com/tella
- High Level (My all in one marketing platform) - https://danchez.com/highlevel
- Zencastr (Best AI podcast tool) - https://danchez.com/podtools
- n8n (my favorite AI automation tool) - https://danchez.com/n8n
Resources Mentioned
- Michael Hyatt - https://michaelhyatt.com/
- Sweetfish Media - https://sweetfishmedia.com/
Timestamps
- 00:00 - The Rise of Skepticism
Dan and Ken talk about how the rise of AI and personal branding has made everyone skeptical of authority online. - 02:25 - Becoming a Thought Leader in a Noisy World
Dan introduces the challenge: how do you build real authority when everyone is making expert claims? - 03:30 - The Counterintuitive Solution: Be a Student
Why adopting the posture of a student is more trustworthy and effective than calling yourself an expert. - 05:00 - Dan's Origin Story with Account-Based Marketing
How Dan became an authority in a space he knew nothing about by documenting his learning journey. - 07:24 - Learning Out Loud Builds Trust
The invisible transition: from curious student to trusted authority, without ever making a bold claim. - 10:08 - The Danger of Faking Expertise
Ken shares a story of spotting a faker on LinkedIn and why people crave authenticity. - 11:51 - The Psychology Behind Student Positioning
Dan explains how humility disarms skepticism and invites trust. - 14:36 - The Never-Ending Student Mindset
Why you never need to graduate from student mode, even when the world starts calling you the expert. - 15:08 - Michael Hyatt: The Model Student
Ken highlights how Michael Hyatt keeps reinventing himself by always learning first and teaching second. - 17:40 - What's Next: 30-30-30 and Learning in the Light
Dan previews practical strategies to apply this approach and become a student in public.
Ready for me to move on to the next step and write title options?
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Transcript
Intro
00:00:05
Dan Sanchez
Ken, it's 2025. twenty twenty five We spend a lot of time online. We're scrolling, we're reading things, we're watching things. I gotta ask, man, how's your BS detector these days? so
00:00:16
Dan Sanchez
you You feel like you can spot it pretty easy these days or is it getting harder?
00:00:20
Ken Freire
you know what i would say in some ways it's getting really easy and then there every once in a while it's starting to get harder like sometimes in video it happens where i'm like was that ai or was that real
00:00:32
Dan Sanchez
Yeah, the AI for the video side for sure is getting harder to tell. it's It's fooling me where it's like the front half is one thing. You're like, oh, this is a real video. And then it turns into something so crazy that you're like, oh, that was AI.
00:00:43
Ken Freire
yeah
00:00:44
Dan Sanchez
But I'm thinking of like even LinkedIn text posts.
00:00:50
Dan Sanchez
Is it something that you can tell where people are actually real or fake? Do you find you trust what you see or are you applying a lot of skepticism to what you see out there?
00:01:03
Ken Freire
I am applying a lot of skepticism assuming most people are using AI to write their posts and it's not them.
00:01:13
Dan Sanchez
And I think that's how it's going for a lot of us these days. I think if you're listening to this and you're into marketing or you're trying to grow your business, I think we all have a very skeptical hat. i I find I'm really skeptical because I read all the books on manipulation and propaganda. I'm a good marketer.
00:01:30
Dan Sanchez
I read the dark side as well as the light side, right? And we're not alone. I feel like a lot of us are skeptical. We see we see testimonials on pages and sometimes we're like, eh.
00:01:43
Dan Sanchez
We see people say, world's best. award-winning creator, author, you're like, eh, by who? Your local chamber of commerce? You know, it's like, I think we all have this filter going on.
00:01:52
Ken Freire
Yeah, exactly.
00:01:56
Dan Sanchez
And I think that's why this is an important conversation because when everybody out there, especially on LinkedIn and B2B spaces, but people selling with their expertise are making claims about their authority, we're we're in a different time. And then AI is in the mix, making it even harder to discern who's real and who's not.
00:02:18
Dan Sanchez
So welcome back to the AI Driver Marketer. I'm Dan Sanchez, and you're joined by my i my co-host, Ken Freire.
00:02:26
Ken Freire
Hey, what's up, bro?
00:02:28
Dan Sanchez
And we are continuing on in the series for Own the Show, the pod to book series, where we're talking about how to become an authority in the age of Today, we're today we're talking about this problem of like, what do you do when everybody positions themselves as an authority?
00:02:43
Dan Sanchez
We talked about, we certainly have talked about the importance of becoming authority and how anybody can essentially become that, that, that two word phrase that everybody cringes at a thought leader.
00:02:55
Dan Sanchez
That thing we all cringe at, but all secretly want at the same time, because we want to lead the thinking of others, but it's kind of hard. Like everyone's positioning themselves as an expert and we're we're all giving hot takes and pushing our our thoughts and opinions in an authoritative way on social media.
00:03:12
Dan Sanchez
And I find that it's it's hard it makes it hard to stand out. You pump out stuff and it seems like it just falls flat. And that's the problem I want to address. And I had this counterintuitive idea a couple of years ago that I found worked really well for me that I want to share today.
00:03:30
Dan Sanchez
But it is weird. It's counterintuitive. the ken Even the first time I brought it up to you where you're like, Yeah, but why would you want to do this if you're an expert?
00:03:37
Ken Freire
Oh yeah, I remember.
00:03:39
Dan Sanchez
And the summary of the idea is to become a student. You're like, well, cool, that works if you're in the beginning. like You're a professional going to expert before you can become a contributor, before you can become an authority, which is the outline we talked about in the last episode.
00:03:54
Dan Sanchez
But how does becoming a student help you if you're already kind of like on the, you're already an expert contributor and you're maybe maybe kind of becoming an authority, but you want to do more? How does that become thing?
00:04:07
Dan Sanchez
And I think that's the counterintuitive part because I think we all should do it. Whether you're at the very, very beginning, like you're actually a student in college or you're on the brink of becoming an authority, but you know you're not quite an authority yet.
00:04:22
Dan Sanchez
This is like the, i want I want to call it a hack, but it's like a the best path that I've found to actually becoming an authority in the sea of everyone trying to become an authority.
00:04:22
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:04:33
Dan Sanchez
Like this one actually works.
00:04:35
Ken Freire
Yeah. And I think the reason why it's so counterintuitive is because when we think of student, we think, oh, we got to go back to high school. We're reading books. We're taking papers. Oh, college was a drag.
00:04:47
Ken Freire
And they forget the positive parts of being a student. And that's the thing that I think you're ultimately trying to get at is that why it's so counterintuitive is because when you take the positive aspects of being a student, it could accelerate your thought leadership.
00:05:03
Ken Freire
So Dan, walk us through like why being a student and what are those aspects to it?
00:05:09
Dan Sanchez
So let's talk about what it is first.
00:05:10
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:11
Dan Sanchez
Like I did this because I was forced to do it because I was coming in as a marketer with a lot to know about marketing. And I did it, figured it out on accident. i was working for Sweetfish, B2B marketing. And there were some B2B marketing concepts I didn't know anything about.
00:05:24
Dan Sanchez
I just knew nothing about them. So I had to be the student. I couldn't pretend to be an authority on things like account-based marketing. I didn't know anything. So I was like, okay, but I want to do a series on account-based marketing, but I can't because I don't know anything about it. But I'm like, but how does, then how do you, how do you talk about something you don't know anything about? And I'm like, well, then I just be honest about what it means.
00:05:46
Dan Sanchez
I just be honest about not knowing anything. So I did. We did a whole 30-day podcast series every single day for 30 days. It was a lot of work.
00:05:58
Dan Sanchez
And it's kind of like what we're doing here, but I had a whole team helping me producing and editing, and now AI does a lot of this work. But I did it all. And I read, i bought like a whole bunch of books, probably like 10 different books on account-based marketing, all the books, like which is all the books written on the topic.
00:06:12
Dan Sanchez
I scheduled interviews with some of the best speakers on the topic. And we had multiple interviews. I reviewed a book, an episode. And then at the beginning of the week, I would say, hey, this is what I'm learning. At the end of the week, I'd be like, hey, this is what we did.
00:06:24
Dan Sanchez
Here's what I learned. And then something really funny happened, Ken. By the end of that, people were asking me questions. I was like, what the heck?
00:06:33
Ken Freire
Right.
00:06:33
Dan Sanchez
Like, I've been seriously saying, like, I'm just figuring this out. I'm um'm like i a B2C marketer coming to B2B. don't know. Crap. But then people started asking me for advice on a account-based marketing. I'm like, what is happening?
00:06:44
Dan Sanchez
Like, why are they asking me to this? And ever since then, I'm like, something happened there. And multiple times now, I've rolled up my sleeves and have run this same process. And I find that it works over and and over and over again.
00:06:55
Dan Sanchez
And it's even happening now with this very podcast. I didn't know a lot about AI, but I started, I just became a student, assumed nothing and told people I didn't know nothing. And then just started sharing what I learned.
00:07:08
Dan Sanchez
And all of a sudden, like, i I don't call myself this again. You never call yourself the expert, the authority. It's like, but you know, people ask me to speak and come to virtual conferences, get up on real stages And ask me for quotes in their books they're writing on the topic. And I'm like, I guess people like what they're hearing.
00:07:27
Dan Sanchez
Even though I've not pretended to be an authority, I'm just a student on the journey to master AI the whole time.
00:07:33
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:07:34
Dan Sanchez
So there's something about it that is counterintuitive, yet is the best way to actually becoming an authority. I'm i'm convinced. And I think there's a few different dynamics at play.
00:07:46
Ken Freire
Yeah. Well, you know, one dynamic I think is at play is that when you're a student, you're really hungry to learn and you're like a self-starter, right? Like you're you're kind of like, I'm going to pave the way for people because so a lot of people just don't know where to start.
00:08:03
Ken Freire
I'm curious what your take on that is.
00:08:05
Dan Sanchez
i think I think you're right. I think oftentimes one of the reasons why we distrust anybody who calls themselves an expert is because they're actually not, right?
00:08:14
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:08:15
Dan Sanchez
They're not an expert. And sometimes it's easy to tell. Sometimes they're they're good at gaslighting and making it seem like they are. But if you start as a student, then it forces you to do the work of actually becoming a real expert.
00:08:28
Dan Sanchez
Like if you humble yourself and go low, Then you're actually doing the work. Everything you're doing, like I did with account-based marketing, I was reading all the books.
00:08:40
Dan Sanchez
So I was going beyond the basics and finding all the little nuggets that were hitting in the rarer books. There was actually a few books on the topic that I was like, I never would have read this book before, but it was actually really good. And I learned a lot from this one particular obscure book that nobody recommends.
00:08:53
Dan Sanchez
And then I would take those ideas and then talk to people who really knew what they were talking about and really wrestle with it. And then I would go and it would force me to reflect on what I had learned by doing solo episodes, sharing it.
00:09:06
Dan Sanchez
So it was actually like the same kind of process that that a student might do in college, right? You read the books and then you talk to your professor. Hopefully if you're good, you go and talk to them after class to really, what did we call that?
00:09:19
Dan Sanchez
Socratic learning, right? When you're actually having dialogue about it.
00:09:20
Ken Freire
yeah
00:09:22
Dan Sanchez
And then you're synthesizing your learning by forcing yourself to write it on as papers. that's That's traditionally how we learned in college. And I just kind of changed the model by, i still had to read all the books, but then I had podcast episodes about it.
00:09:35
Dan Sanchez
And then I did solo episodes synthesizing what I'd learned about it. And you know, you become the master through teaching. Teaching is like the final capstone step of really mastering the material other than executing it yourself.
00:09:47
Dan Sanchez
That's the one step I didn't take, but I could have started doing it. Would have really taken it to the next level.
00:09:52
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:09:52
Dan Sanchez
So I think that is a major component of it that actually makes it real when most people don't.
00:09:58
Ken Freire
Yeah. And you know, it's fascinating. And this literally, if you think we're making this stuff up, that people always tell act like they're the expert. This happened to me yesterday.
00:10:09
Ken Freire
Someone sends me a LinkedIn, you know, pitch cold pitch. And I look at them, I look at all of them and I'm like, Ooh, and it was intriguing enough. Yeah. that I went and I actually clicked on the person's profile and I started reading some of his posts.
00:10:26
Ken Freire
And one of the posts caught my eye. It said, act like you're the expert even if you're not.
00:10:32
Ken Freire
And immediately i just thought to myself, I can't trust you. I can't trust that you're actually going to give me an offer because you might just be a student right now in in this process and you're trying to build clients, which I get it. I get if you're trying to get clients you're trying to get close deals.
00:10:49
Ken Freire
Man, i'm I'm all about that. But I want you to do it in an ethical way. Don't act like you're the expert. Just... Tell me like, hey, I'm new at this or hey, I'm i'm i'm a few steps ahead or at least tell me the truth of, hey, I used to manage all these other things before.
00:10:56
Dan Sanchez
Yeah.
00:11:04
Ken Freire
And this is how I'm now going out on my own, doing it for people. I get it. i understand that. Like, I'd rather you tell me the truth than you lie to me and act like you're the expert. And instantly I'm like, OK, I didn't accept the person's request. I didn't acknowledge it. And I just moved on.
00:11:22
Ken Freire
But that's why I find what you're telling me and others fascinating, because when you are the student and you're forcing yourself to learn, people will quickly be able to tell I'm an expert or you're an expert or you're not an expert.
00:11:36
Ken Freire
And you're actually learning what you're talking about.
00:11:39
Dan Sanchez
Now, there's an even more counterintuitive part because it makes sense. You're like, okay, yeah, like if you're starting from the beginning, do the work, become the expert, and therefore you can start to grow in authority. But there's the real weird twist on it.
00:11:50
Dan Sanchez
I would recommend taking this path even if you already are the expert and don't you've already read all the books. Here's why. When everyone's positioning themselves in authority as an an expert, again, skepticism's really high.
00:12:04
Ken Freire
you
00:12:05
Dan Sanchez
Distrust, really high. If you position yourself not as an expert, but as a student down at the bottom, their distrust meter goes down.
00:12:18
Dan Sanchez
And that's the most important part is they're going to trust you. They're going to trust your content more because you're not making any presumptions. So they don't have to like, you know, they don't have to like squint their eyes and be like, yeah, but where's the fine print? Do I really trust these major claims they're saying? Do I really trust that they're an expert?
00:12:34
Dan Sanchez
There's nothing really, really pick apart because it's not hard to believe that you're just a student. That's a much easier thing to believe, but they're starting to pay attention to you.
00:12:43
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:12:44
Dan Sanchez
And if they're paying attention to you, because again, they're trusting what you're putting down, you're just sharing helpful things that you're learning and just passing it along to them. All of a sudden, they're learning from you. And what happens when someone learns from you?
00:12:55
Dan Sanchez
Well, they start to trust you. And authority really isn't a game of, it is a game of perceived credibility, but that perceived credibility is summarized in the word trust.
00:13:09
Dan Sanchez
And if you continue to help be helpful and trust people and they're learning from you and you're sharing real insights, then they're going to know that you actually know the game. And something happens where you it becomes like a, I don't know, like a parasocial apprenticeship.
00:13:24
Dan Sanchez
And that's kind of like a loaded term, but it's like socially they're learning through you. You become the teacher, even though you're positioning yourself as a student. Yeah.
00:13:35
Dan Sanchez
And then over time, you become the authority when enough people are learning from you. And you, again, the cool thing is you never actually have to make a shift from student to authority. The shift will happen by itself because other people start calling you the authority.
00:13:51
Dan Sanchez
So you never actually have to take the humble hat off. You could just leave that sucker on indefinitely. But other people will keep putting the authority hat on you.
00:13:58
Ken Freire
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:00
Dan Sanchez
And it's great. I love it because like, you don't have to ever pretend. You could just continue being the student and being curious and learning and sharing what you're learning. And if you do it well and you do it authentically, other people will put the authority hat on you.
00:14:16
Dan Sanchez
and you'll actually grow in real authority.
00:14:17
Ken Freire
yeah
00:14:19
Dan Sanchez
And I think that's why it works so well. It's because it's not presuming to be up here. You're letting other people pull you up. You just continually shoot low, shoot low, do the hard work, and be try to be as helpful as possible and and and And you'll grow in the authority.
00:14:35
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:14:35
Dan Sanchez
And I think that's like the unlock of why I would, even if you're an expert, like just pretend you're a student and just start from the beginning. And I promise if you do that over six months, you will have more authority at the end.
00:14:45
Ken Freire
Yeah.
00:14:46
Dan Sanchez
And there's never a switch pivot you have to make back to being a quote unquote expert.
00:14:49
Ken Freire
yeah I think a great person that you and I both know and and I worked for him was Michael Hyatt.
00:14:55
Dan Sanchez
Yeah.
00:14:55
Ken Freire
Right. He's time and time again over his career pivoted to different industry. I wouldn't say industries, but niches. Right. But he's taken that approach of a student.
00:15:06
Ken Freire
And even now, if you follow Michael Hyatt, which I would encourage you guys to follow Michael Hyatt, he's fantastic leader. He's jumping into AI and he's posting a lot about AI now.
00:15:14
Dan Sanchez
Yeah. Doing it again. You starting all over again.
00:15:18
Ken Freire
He's starting all over. But here's the fascinating thing, because I started working with, I i was working under, you know, at Full Focus when he's just first started learning about AI and his ver ferocious hunger to like just think through all the processes.
00:15:18
Dan Sanchez
love that guy.
00:15:33
Ken Freire
And he wasn't talking about it online yet. He was just talking to about it and on staff, teaching other people, learning, learning, learning, learning. And now he's out there like, hey, here's what I'm learning. Here's what I'm doing. Here's what i'm i'm gay I see out there.
00:15:47
Ken Freire
And he's bringing so much new thoughts to to it. And within his niche, right, he's doing it that I'm like, it's so much fun to watch him knowing all the stuff that I've known about him for the last 10, 15 years. Right. Yeah.
00:16:00
Ken Freire
right
00:16:00
Dan Sanchez
I remember listening to his podcast back when it was like, I can't remember. Actually, I can't remember what at the podcast because it was like. Focus on this. No, wasn't that. That was the new one that you were co-hosting.
00:16:10
Ken Freire
yeah
00:16:10
Dan Sanchez
It was like, this is your life or something like that. I can't remember now. His early podcast, he would just talk about things. He would just be like, hey I'm learning this. And then what I found is this. And he just shared like, he's a guy who was the CEO of Thomas Nelson, the book publisher, a big, big publisher, and then had a wildly successful blog. And he's still talking about like, oh, I'm diving into this new topic. Then eventually he writes, like he starts as a student, but eventually he writes a book about it. He launches a course about it.
00:16:38
Dan Sanchez
But it always started like in this, like, I'm just learning. And he'd interview people and then he'd share what he's learned and he shared like the steps that are helpful for him. And every time I'm like, man, this guy's really good at learning and then breaking it down and making it simple for me to learn.
00:16:49
Dan Sanchez
And over time, I've just learned to trust him on so many topics because he stays humble, learns, and then just teaches what he learns over and over and over again. Even though for all the things he's done, like he could say he's a thought leader and nobody would bat an eye and they'd be like, yep, he is.
00:17:04
Ken Freire
Oh, for sure.
00:17:07
Ken Freire
Yeah. so So Dan, you know, a couple of things as someone is thinking here, hey, I want to be a student. We're talking about why they should be a student. we We've kind of touched on how to be a student.
00:17:18
Ken Freire
be Be hungry, be humble, right? Be curious is a couple of things that that I heard. Anything else that you may say it feels counterintuitive, right? but is pivotal for people becoming a student to actually then becoming an expert.
00:17:35
Dan Sanchez
That is a topic for the next two chapters. And we actually break it down. I actually have a very specific guide to do it. I call it the 30-30-30 plan. thirty thirty point It sounds crazy, but I promise it's a fantastic plan to follow. I also talk about a different concept called learning in the light, which makes it really easy for people to break down in practical steps what it looks like to be a student, but on in public and social media where everybody can see it.
00:18:05
Dan Sanchez
Because some of us forget what being a student's like, especially if you're already an expert. You're just used to saying this or that rather than in leading with curiosity, leading with experimentation, documenting your journey rather than just telling people how it is.
00:18:25
Dan Sanchez
And that's the part that I'm looking forward to dive into. But I thought it was important just to dive into the positioning itself of becoming a student when everybody else is positioning themselves as an authority.