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Episode 419: Maggie Gigandet Red Paperclipped Her Way into Freelancing
596 Plays4 months ago
Maggie Gigandet is a freelance writer whose piece "The Extra Mile" appears in the Atavist Magazine.
In this episode we also hear from editor-in-chief Seyward Darby.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Show Introduction and Sponsor
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you even podcast, bro? This show takes a lot of time and part of what keeps the lights on is if you consider hiring me to coach up a piece of your work, you know, a generous editor. Helps you see what you can't see. It could be a pitch, a proposal, an essay, or hell, even a book. If you need help cracking the code, man, email me at creativenonfictionpodcast.gmail dot.com and we'll start a dialogue. New sponsor alert. This show is also brought to you by disappoint to fail to fulfill the expectations or wishes of a person. Each time I submit a draft back to my editor, I disappoint him. I don't know what I'm doing. It's such a refrain in my brain. um And so I i often picture, OK, if someone did know what they were doing, what would they do? And then I do that.
Host Introduction and Podcast Concept
00:01:00
Speaker
Oh hey CNFers, it's your little garden gnome of CNF, and this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to primarily writers about the craft of telling true story. Did I split an infinitive? That is a good name for a podcast, the split infinitive podcast. You can contact me later about purchasing the domain. just Just go get it. i ah There might be some new dabblers to CNF Pod Multiverse since the Long Forward podcast picked up their microphones and went home after nearly 600 interviews over 12 years. ah Evan Ratliff, one of the heads of the three-headed beasts, was ah nice enough to recommend this pod, this one right here.
00:01:48
Speaker
as a potential one to fulfill, or fill, the void left in the hearts of long-form diehards, myself one of them. So, do do it do I fill my own holes? Wait, if you're new here, I'm something of an acquired taste. But when we get into it, man, I think you'll find that it's a good time overall, friend.
Maggie's Ultramarathon Story: Resilience and Relationship
00:02:10
Speaker
Maggie, Gigandet is here, and it's that Atavistian time of the month, and not much by way of spoilers here. So visit magazine.atavist.com to ah to read Maggie's story, the extra mile, about a couple, the Barcelona's, Todd and Allison.
00:02:30
Speaker
as they race in Volstate, this 314 mile, 10 day ultra marathon. It takes place largely in Tennessee, but also a little bit in Georgia. and yeah Anyway, it's a lot of miles, many days. Oh, and the blisters. It's a braided narrative that takes us into the incredible bond of Todd and Allison. Traumatic brain injury, ah not on the racetrack, of course, but on something else. car accident, and the resilience it takes to finish a race and to be there for each other. Aww. Show notes to this episode and more at printedamara.com hey where you can also sign up for the companion rage against the algorithm newsletter. Each podcast gets a cute little newsletter now since I'm not really on social media anymore.
00:03:21
Speaker
ah the The newsletter, I've been doing it for more than a decade, but and i it was usually once a month. And and now it's just, you know, I'm just playing around. It's once a week right now. ah There's a too long didn't listen mini transcript, ah the text from each episode's parting shot, a a behind the scenes bullshit riff about my rotten head and even my more rotten writing. Then there's the first of the month rager with cool links, book recommendations. It literally goes up to 11.
Narrative Challenges in Ultramarathon Story
00:03:55
Speaker
But first, we're going to hear from editor in chief, Sayward Darby. And as you know,
00:04:03
Speaker
these Adivistian things. We have the ah lead editor of the piece, so we get, in this case, her side of the table. We got a parting shot on disappointment. Tether's in to our new sponsor, so let's get into it, CNFers. New and old Riff.
00:04:29
Speaker
Well, speaking of the job you love, you've got this ah new piece that's got some, you know, all got some running, ah ultra running as ah as a backdrop to it. So, you know, was speaking and thinking of Maggie's piece, you know, what is it about you that, you know, that kind of struck you about it? Yeah, well, so Maggie had approached us at least once before saying she was interested in writing about ultra marathons, which I will confess, you know, I don't really know anything about ultra marathons, except they're very long. And ah you know obviously, in reading some of what she emailed, it was clear like there's an interesting culture here. There are interesting people here. But we what i what I told her, if I recall correctly, was you know we really need to find a narrative inside of it. It can't just kind of be look at this world or look at this particular character, or you know you need to find a story inside of it to let to make it work for the activist. And so she had identified that she wanted to write about this particular
00:05:25
Speaker
type of ultramarathon designed by this one man, Lazarus Lake. Within the people the group of people who have kind of become devotees of his of his ultras, she found this couple that had this really compelling story um of kind of overcoming odds. You know, I think what I was interested in, I mean, certainly, you know, we run a lot of true crime stories. We run a lot of stories that have some sort of legal dimension. And this is a story that doesn't have any of those things. You know, it's really about family and love and, I mean, tragedy to a certain extent, but also sports. Like, it just had some elements that we probably don't do enough of in our stories. let's See, you've got, you know, you have this like kind of braided narrative with the the race and the Barcelona's. I'm always interested in the unique challenges that ah that a story provides for you on your side of the table. So yeah, in what in what ways did this one, you know, what was the puzzle you were looking to crack by and large for for this piece?
Storytelling Complexities: ABAB Structure
00:06:21
Speaker
Yeah, so it was absolutely the structure in this case. So the first draft came in, it was very clean. um Maggie's a very, very nice writer, but it was way more just straight chronology. So if I recall correctly, it kind of opened to the scene where they were starting the race, the the Vol State race, and then it jumped back into their backstory, but it never, it just like went all the way through their backstory. So that then you eventually they worked up to the race. And then the last like big chunk of the piece was the race. To me, it really lost momentum when it got to the race. Because you know the question obviously became, are they going to finish? but But it was kind of like we've left all of that personal stuff behind to a certain extent to be totally frank about these ultras. So this ultra is 314 miles. You have 10 days to finish it. It's just a slog. you know like It's not this TikTok play by play, you know oh, wow, I'm really in the action. like It's just one foot in front of the other.
00:07:17
Speaker
Um, yeah you know, in really hot weather over, in some cases difficult, in some cases flat terrain. And so you were just kind of watching them slog for a really long time. And so Maggie and I talked about how we needed to find a way to. restructure things to make it such that it didn't, that the momentum didn't get sucked out of it, but also of the whole story, but also that the vol state portion of things, you know, kind of kept crackling, right? Like we, whenever we were in the vol state of it all, you know, we weren't just kind of like, okay, there we go. One step in front of the other, you know? And so we talked about breaking up vol state. And I can't remember exactly how it came to be that we decided on this sort of ABAB structure.
00:08:03
Speaker
but But ultimately, to me, it makes it a significantly more interesting narrative story to have these two sort of ah plot lines that you're following and ultimately they do coincide. And there's this one scene that I think is really moving that happened in the course of the Ball State race that I think really encapsulates kind of the Barcelona's love for each other um and what overcoming this awful ordeal, which was an accident, a car accident, that
00:08:37
Speaker
you know really devastated Todd Barcelona's body, but also um you know gave him a traumatic brain injury. And he was told he'd probably never run again. Part of what overcoming that meant was you know the actual physical of it all and learning to run again. But then the other piece of it was his relationship with his wife um and how you know that kind of transformed over the course of that recovery. And ultimately, the way that the the two parts of the braided narrative kind of come together is you you really see very vividly, I think, um how important and sort of almost inextricable they have become from each other because of everything they've been through. You know, we talk a lot about sort of the engine of narrative, um you know, what's kind of driving a piece.
00:09:23
Speaker
And I think in this case, there are sort of two, each of the threads has its own engine. One of them being, are they going to finish this race? right And then the other one being, you know what is it going to mean for him to overcome this ordeal? Because you know that he does, insofar as when the story starts, he's running an ultramarathon. So like we know that he gets back to running. But the question kind of becomes, what is it I mean, first of all, what happened to him so you know we're going to go back and we're going to learn all that which is which is harrowing. But then, what does overcoming that ordeal mean in a much more like existential sense. um And so I think we answer both the question of the existential question and then the question of, you know, are they going to to finish this insanely.
00:10:05
Speaker
difficult race. So so yeah, the ABAB structure was ah was what we settled on and I think that's like the thing that makes this story most special um is it's like a purely braided story and you know there's really like a sort of yeah there's sort of a stanza quality to it. Yeah, for sure. And there's only so much you can do, especially with um with endurance running as ah as a storytelling element, because the the tension in it is spread out over so long. And you can't do a play-by-play or a beat-by-beat. It would just get mundane. So you really have to you have to really lift out
00:10:43
Speaker
Oh, youre just the the most integral parts that are trying to do work for you in a story and it's uh and by braiding it like that you really do get a get a sense of like okay here here are those you still feel like you had the race but you just cherry picked like a couple minutes from it even though it was like 30 million hours. longer it was Yes, I think that's exactly right like you've got a kind of provide these snapshots. Um, and those snapshots need to speak in some way to the wider story you're telling. So, you know, I mean, certainly we just, we start the race with the start of the race. So you see what what's going on and you get sort of the establishing shot of it all. Right. And then the second time we returned to the race, they're passing through the very first town that they've
00:11:28
Speaker
that they've come to on the course, kind of the shell of its former self. It was once upon a time, like Mark Twain said, it was the prettiest city on the Mississippi or something along those lines. And it's just really not that anymore. And there's kind of an illusion there to losing sense of self, you know kind of luster fading, which is a lot of what happened to Todd in his accident. So then you know we we don't make that connection super directly, but that's sort of what we're trying to do with that snapshot of the race. And then we go back into, you know the backstory of what happened to
Reconstructing Events with Memory Challenges
00:11:58
Speaker
him. And so then I'm trying to remember like the next snapshot of the race is kind of explaining how you actually survive. um And you really see, if I recall correctly, Allison helping Todd through the race. And so you start to get the sense that you know their relationship is very much one in which he leans on her. And then you know you continue to get that in the backstory. So this is a long way of saying like each of the snapshots of the race is intended to
00:12:26
Speaker
without beating you over the head with it, it is intended to speak to the existential story, right? um And so even though you're very much in the moment, they're exhausted, they're hot, they're sweaty, they're gross, you know, um and you're just kind of watching them try to make it through, something is going on in that scene that from our perspective was intended to provide like a very nice echo of of what was going on in the and the other plot line. we'd like to think our readers are smart enough to know, you know, yeah um ah what we're what we're doing. um But yeah, that's exactly right. And that was, you you know, what Alice, so sorry, Alison is the name of one of the subjects, Maggie, the writer. That was what Maggie and I worked really hard on structure wise. And she was so game for it and like excited to
00:13:15
Speaker
pull it apart and then figure out how to put the puzzle pieces back together so that it created a new picture. um And I mean, that's always fun for me as an editor, you know, like it's not just line by line, it's how can we really, really tell this story with the materials we have in hand in the best possible way. Very nice. Well, say right as always, it's so good to get your side of the table. And we'll kick it over to Maggie now to get ah get her sense of ah you know what this piece is ah about and the journey of this piece, so to speak. So ah thanks for the time, as always. Thanks so much, Brendan.
00:13:54
Speaker
Alright, that was great. I always loved talking to Sayward and Jonah, but ago today it was Sayward, okay? Okay. Alright, a little more about Maggie. ah She was a trial attorney and she turned her back on that field to pursue freelance writing and journalism. She's written about people's crazy obsessions and chief among them ultra marathons. Her works appeared now in the Atavist, Gear Junkie, among others. She does not run ultras, but there's something about the people who do that she finds fascinating, and you'll find that out firsthand. ah you know We also talk about red paper clipping her way to journalism, how she used the Write or Die app to help do this.
00:14:38
Speaker
Do this piece. What else? Finding the fun? Chasing yeses? You can find her at MaggieGigandit.com or on LinkedIn MaggieGigandit. That's ah G-I-G-A-N-D-E-T. This is my meandering way of saying this is a cool conversation, alright?
00:15:04
Speaker
All right, so I understand, like so you're a former trial attorney, so how did you get into journalism? um Well, yes. I practiced law as a um prosecutor for several years and dealt with a range of cases. some very disturbing subject matter. and you know After a while, I just needed to change and decided to try something else. so um i tried I did a year in a market research but a marketing research firm, then then decided that's not
00:15:37
Speaker
That's not the answer either. I left that job at the very end of February 2020. And so within weeks, everyone was at home and it actually worked out because it gave me a lot of time to figure it out and um At the time, I didn't even realize freelance writing was a thing. And I remember the day when I i realized it and I walked into the kitchen and told my husband, yeah, so like, you can come up with an idea and then you can send it to an editor and then they'll, they might say yes. So my plan was I would continue looking for jobs and this freelancing sounded fun. So I do that in the meantime. And then eventually I just stopped looking for jobs.
00:16:17
Speaker
Wow, so a lot of times it can be ah a big challenge to gain traction in ah freelance journalism, ah but speaking personally and also a lot of other people I talk to just ah getting those early wins and that early momentum is very, very challenging. So so how did you accomplish that ah and get that early momentum and the traction you needed to get the flywheel moving? Yes, that was exactly my experience. um I like to say that I started out with nothing. um I had no experience. I did not have a journalism degree. I did not have contacts. I did not have a portfolio. And I had next to no knowledge of how the industry worked. so
00:16:56
Speaker
What I did was one of the good things um about being stuck at home when COVID hit was everyone and their brother started doing free webinars. And so I watched, if it was even remotely interesting to me, I watched it. And I was looking for what what topics am I interested in? And then a lot of it was um you know on the business and industry of freelance writing. so i So I started gaining knowledge then. Basically, my first one of my first hurdles was I don't have i didn't have a portfolio. and i didn't know But everyone said, OK, send your clips so we can see if we want the story. So how am I supposed to get any clips if no one will take my story in the first place? But to do that, I need clips.
00:17:43
Speaker
yeah So yeah, yeah it so I a lot of what I've had to do is I don't know what I'm doing is such a refrain in my brain um And so I i often picture. Okay, if someone did know what they were doing, what would they do and then I do that? So I built a portfolio and to get traction it really it really felt like are you familiar with the one red paperclip project? No, no It was a a Canadian man did it several years ago, and he wanted to see what he could get, starting with he had one little red paperclip. So he traded that for like a pin. And then he traded that for something else. And eventually he ends up with a house. And that is the closest I can get to what it felt like.
00:18:30
Speaker
trying to build a career from nothing. I often felt like I was taking my transferable skills from my my law career and I was like making trades, just ever so slightly getting a little bit more experience or a little bit more you know credibility, if you will. I'm still there, but i I at least think I'm not dealing with a paperclip anymore. Right. what What were some of the transferable skills that you took from your law career that applied to journalism as a
Law to Journalism: Transferable Skills
00:19:01
Speaker
trial attorney? I had a lot of experience years of experience and of course had been trained in law school um researching writing and interviewing skills, which is lucky because That's mostly what I do now. I also um Sort of used that in the beginning like Because I'm coming from
00:19:20
Speaker
but i I have an unusual start in the field. um Maybe that's something that I can write about. And so one of my strategies to get a portfolio together was um I initially thought I might be interested in editing. So I joined some editing associations and um wrote ah an article for one um newsletter of the association on the similarities between editing and and the legal field And so I just basically used anything I could to start doing work for free basically to get the portfolios. But basically it was built on those three skills.
00:19:58
Speaker
Yeah. There's always the the ah kind of a push and pull between doing work for free and or insisting on doing it for pay. But is that is that advice you would you would offer someone who like obviously you need that you need those clips in a portfolio and sometimes the only way to do it is to do it for free. So you have a body of work to show people. Is that how you would counsel people most likely.
00:20:22
Speaker
I can say it worked for me, and I know that's such a controversial thing in the freelancing world. I'm not advocating doing it for free, but I didn't have an option. you know I didn't have anything. I had to. So um I did start out doing it for free. But then I quickly, so you know once I got what I needed, I stopped. And from then on, I only did pain projects. And then after a while, once I built, up more of a portfolio and more experience, then I set a minimum ah minimum fee for myself. I don't accept anything under a certain amount. To me, it doesn't have to be a permanent thing. And it can be a thing that even though it's not paying, it might still have
Discovery of Todd and Allison's Story
00:21:02
Speaker
some value for you. So how do you lock into the Barcelona's in this story that you wrote for the Atavist? It actually started years and years
00:21:12
Speaker
years ago. I got a bit addicted to reading about ultramarathons and um just following them in general. That all started. i got so I'm a big supporter of the Tennessee State Parks. I love the parks. I had a Google Alert set for anything about the parks. um And so I saw something there one day on the Barkley marathons, which is a very famous um internationally known ultra um designed by Lazarus Lake, who is the creator of Ball State.
00:21:47
Speaker
and in my piece and um I got to go and and actually watch part of the marathons and it was amazing and I was hooked and so I went back again the next year but to a different one of his ultras so that would have been the summer of 2022 I was following his hots race which is mentioned in the piece i I had convinced someone I'd been trying to convince an an outlet for a long time to let me cover one of these races and eventually i convinced one gear junkie it was like two weeks before the race started so i get there and i i didn't really i never covered something like this so i thought you know what i'm just going to talk to as many people as i can
00:22:26
Speaker
the day the morning of the race, I went to the breakfast ah bar in the hotel, and I saw this couple. And they were both sitting on the same side of the booth together, and the other side was empty. And I you know went up and introduced myself, and it was Todd and Allison. And they I asked them, why do you run Ultras? And then that was the beginning. But yes, yeah you this piece, you know it's at the intersection of traumatic brain injury, ah you know among other things like ah relationships and that and and um ah kind of the healing power of endurance sport and ultra running. So yeah what was it about their story that that you really you locked into? You're like, oh, there's a lot here worth unpacking.
00:23:12
Speaker
To me, it was because their story adds an extra layer to a subject that is already just mind boggling to me. Like just even someone who's never been in in any sort of, um never had any sort of physical injuries or you know someone who's completely and 100% healthy, I do not, I understand a little better now, but I just, why would you do that? Why would you put yourself through these extreme conditions? And I mean, it's not like you're competing for money yeah or, you know, it's just you get there and then that's it. You've done it. Like, why? And so that's fascinating to me. And then finding out Todd's story and Allison's story and knowing he had really serious physical injuries to overcome, that just adds an even even an extra layer to me. Like, I can't imagine doing it myself. And I'm
00:24:07
Speaker
you know, out of shape, granted, but healthy. You know, I can't imagine doing it in his um with what he's had to to overcome. So i it was just very curious to know why are you here? When you were reporting on them and following them, what what was it about? ah like What did you see like in them and shadowing them that you found you know all the more intriguing given that there are you know dozens and dozens of people you could have chosen? But it was like there was something about them that you found particularly intriguing.
00:24:42
Speaker
Well, so um from the first minute I met them um sitting in that that hotel breakfast room, they're very, very quiet people. They're very soft-spoken. You really have to kind of dig around to get them to tell you their their story. i mean so and And then when they would describe how Todd changed after the the wreck, um it's kind of hard to believe because he's He just seems so calm and quiet and so that was one thing that that ah really attracted me and the other thing was um as we're sitting in the the breakfast room and he's telling me I mean we I probably only talk to them for about 20 minutes but he's telling me about um
00:25:25
Speaker
what it was like after the wreck and he started crying and was really struggling you know to control his emotions. I mean, this was at that point maybe eight years after the wreck and it just comes back like that. So it it was its it's very hard not to um not to want to know more about their story but because you can tell it it was such a huge part of their lives and it's still so present with them. Yeah, and what was what I found particularly striking about it was while he was on the mend, the degree of jealousy and envy and even resentment that he felt towards his wife who could go out and and run, and here he was basically bedridden and on sort of this ah medical house arrest, if you will. it that was ah I thought a particularly interesting threat, and um I don't know about you, but it was ah what was ah maybe a challenge in reporting that out?
00:26:22
Speaker
not just for that part, but also for the whole thing was um um it's been, this is the 10th year, 10 years since that happened. So just the passage of time, but then also um because Todd had sustained a ah traumatic brain injury, he can have trouble remembering things at times. And Allison has a really great memory. But Allison was at work during those days. So you get the idea from him about what it was like. Trying to recreate a particular scene and and put the reader there, you know, it it's a it's a bit
00:27:01
Speaker
more than just it's been a long time since then, even you his memory may not be the best thing to rely on through no fault of his own. um So that that was hard. Yeah, it is ah as someone I've you know recreated various things with like police reports and whatnot, you know is that something you leaned on to you know really ah evoke that scene a bit more? Yes. Well, to evoke all the scenes, um I really had to ring as much as i much information as I possibly could out of the um documents I found and the sources I found because I quickly realized
00:27:43
Speaker
So it's years ago,
Verification Challenges and Witnesses
00:27:46
Speaker
um some police records had been destroyed because they were they only keep them for a certain amount of years and that was long gone. So I i managed to find both police officers um or law enforcement officers, the highway patrol officer who responded to the scene and then the officer who responded to the rear ending that happened in 2017 to Todd. They didn't remember. i mean I mean, how many of these scenes do they see, you know, every day? So they so it was people's memories were not there, records were gone. um i I had located some documents but was not um given permission to look at them.
00:28:27
Speaker
So I had to depend on what I did have. A key witness, I believe, um had since passed away. I mean, so so there were a lot of difficulties, but I also got really lucky. um Finding the math uses was a boon. I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't have found them. so Oh, hi, there, C.N. Evers, the Matthews is that Maggie refers to our witnesses to the ah the car accident that Todd Barcelona experienced. And likewise, providing a lot of color in firsthand account of this traumatic accident. So therere there there you have it.
00:29:11
Speaker
You kind of have to, like, there's so much I would have loved to have seen, but also I have to remind myself I'm so lucky in what I did get to see. I combed 400 pages of medical records for anything about how they were reacting and how they were surviving the hospital, say. So just persistence, really. Right. Right. And when it comes to medical records, you know, is that something that you have to procure from the Barcelona's or is that publicly available?
Accessing Medical Records for Storytelling
00:29:40
Speaker
No, um I had to look up the hospital's procedures on getting the right forms signed. Todd signed those forms you know and allowed me to to see his stack of medical records. I went to the hospital and
00:29:55
Speaker
You know, dealt with that and and um I got a disc in the mail and so it's like, be careful what you wish for me because now I had 400 pages and that that was not his, that was his whole hospital stay and maybe like two doctor visits after he left. Yeah, so I just had to really search to find all the good details that I wanted to have. Yeah, and you know given that the the major you know backdrop of this is this ultra race that you know you've kind of got the two braiding threads, kind of the the accident narrative braiding around the the race itself, which I think is a very effective strategy for the piece of this nature.
00:30:36
Speaker
You know, when you're dealing with endurance athletes of some kind, you know, what is the draw for you to and the the ultra marathon community? You know, because it's not this isn't the first time you've written about it. So I wonder, there's there's something about them that lock that that you really lock into. you're You're absolutely right, and I have asked myself this, like why are you so fascinated with this? i even um Sometimes I promise my husband, okay, i'm I won't mention ultramarathon again today, I promise. I think it has to be...
00:31:14
Speaker
a combination of the people who choose to to run these races are fascinating. I'm sure if I had stopped at a different table in the breakfast room and talked to someone else, I could have come up with you know another really great story. So it's they're filled with fascinating people, really generous people, and who are clearly passionate about what they do and want to talk to you. um Lazarus Lake, the founder of all these races, is um In my opinion, he's a genius. and it is so I don't think I could ever be bored of listening to him or learning about him. He's he's very interesting. um like I don't understand why people would voluntarily do this. That is so interesting to me. and it it fit right in with I have an overarching interest in people with interesting passions.
00:32:09
Speaker
So I've, I have written about other things I've written about um champion marble players, you know, people who are really interesting and interested in something and skilled fascinate me and I think this was like Ultras are like the perfect storm. And that's the best that I've come up with about what got me so addicted to it. Yeah. Well, I know there are certain ah subjects that I'm drawn to, mainly mainly people of like great singular devotion. And I think a lot of that has to do with like I wish I was a little bit more singularly devoted to just about anything.
00:32:44
Speaker
ah and i I admire that in people. So I see it as something of a deficiency in mind that I'm drawn to people who have the trade I so desire. it is you know is Is that something you find too? you just like There's something in them that you wish you had? That's a good question. I don't think it's quite the same for me because I will never run or walk or crawl and ultra ever, which is something I didn't realize when I first ah met people at the beginning of a race. Everyone like really seriously tries to convince you to to do it. I think I'm just so interested in
00:33:24
Speaker
knowing why people are doing certain things. like For instance, my favorite genre ah to read is biography, but specifically of interesting people who are not famous. If they're famous, that doesn't interest me. So I don't know, maybe I i need like a counseling session to really dive into why this is, but it just hit on so many interesting things for me all at once that I just i kind of got addicted to it. But running in and of itself is kind of a fascinating subject to to to write about. just that There's a lot metaphorically you can pull on. and you So like how did you resonate with running just as a subject matter?
00:34:05
Speaker
i that I think what you just said, there there's so much that it it resonates with metaphorically, and I think that ultimately gets at what I've cobbled together as my answer for for why they do this. And it's not like another event where you're covering someone and they do something and they finish the game and and you've seen them and maybe they they're really skilled and then then they you all go home. There are a lot of transformations that happen and there are so many layers to people that you get to see through running and especially in running in these sort of extreme conditions. um
00:34:43
Speaker
So I think it's fascinating to to see everyone at the start of the race, see them you know as you drive past them in your air conditioned car and they're struggling you know and you feel really bad for them. And then to see them triumphant at the end, like to see their whole, it's it's a story in itself, every single race from every runner. you know So you get to see a whole story by following these ultras. Yeah, there's an element of deliverance that happens yeah with these, and it is over the course of these hallucinatory types of endurance experiences that you know people do come out ah sometimes quite literally transformed in some ways. Oh yeah, and you know, hallucinations are one of my favorite things to hear about in in ultras and um
00:35:29
Speaker
People run these for all kinds of reasons. And we kind of get into it a bit in the piece. um Coach Leathers says, you know you really you need to have experienced trauma and um overcoming it and in order to be able to run them. And I think i think that's true. For some people, I think therere there are some um psychological reasons why they're running them, something in their past. um And then, of course, I asked um Laz, you know, why do people run ultras? And his answer was, because humans are meant to try. And, you know, so there's that. um People will often tell you I wanted to see if I could do it, um which would explain the first time you did it, but not the fifth time or the 10th time. And then the last thing
00:36:19
Speaker
for me that I realized why people did this was some people just really enjoy it. It's, um you know, in a marathon, time is of the essence, and these are more social races. I like what you just said about ah what Laz said about, what you know, humans are meant to try. And, you know, extrapolating that or overlaying that on on your life, what you know, what is the the nature of your try? You know, what you're what you're after, be it ah you know, athletically or just, you know, through your journalism and your writing. Yeah, um it's definitely through my launching myself into this um career.
Writing an Atavist Piece vs. Running an Ultramarathon
00:37:00
Speaker
That is my try. And it's it's funny that you pick up on that because um i I had never, the the longest piece I had written before this one was 2500 words. And it was one of those things like,
00:37:14
Speaker
you're sort of so inexperienced that you don't know what you're getting into. and like it When I found out that I was doing this for the Atavist, I mean, I was ecstatic. I was so excited. And then months later, after I followed the race and I i go to, I'm like, okay, I have to write it now. Then it starts dawning on me. And then other you know colleagues, when they find out how long it is, you know their reactions, I was like, why does everyone keep reacting that way, um you sort of realize what you got into. So because I had only done shorter pieces before, this is the longest I've ever stayed on a piece. And eventually I started thinking of it as, this is my ultra. This is my writing ultra. And I had a conversation with Laz. I interviewed him last fall for this piece.
00:38:01
Speaker
He has such a way with words. So I i told him before of all state, um there's something that it's called it's called the Last Supper. And everyone meets at a Chinese buffet restaurant in Union City. And it's to give them instructions and that kind of thing. And Laz gave a speech to the crowd, and and he ended it with, I'm not going to lie to you for the next five minutes. This is going to be hard. And you know he concluded his speech by saying, um after 40 years of watching this race, there's one difference between the people who finish and those who don't. The finishers didn't quit. And I had this that in my mind the whole time. By the time I interviewed Laz in the fall, I was really starting to question my ability to
00:38:47
Speaker
to finish this. And I said, you know I keep reminding myself about what you said at the Last Supper. And um we had just been talking about the bench of despair. I was learning about the the lore and the history of the bench. And I said, you know what? Maybe I'm on my own bench of despair. And I've got to decide, you know I'm either going to just quit or I'm going to get up and and finish this thing. And he said to me, you are on the bench of despair. You can either get in your car, go home, and regret it for the rest of your life, or you can get up and keep going and regret it for the rest of the race. And he so he was talking to me just like a runner. And it was at that moment I was like, yeah, I'm OK. I'm going to keep going. But yeah, that's i so I thought of this whole thing as my own ultra. And that helped.
00:39:43
Speaker
that yeah that it really is great counsel and there are any number of doubts that can that that creep in over the course of a you know generating a peace even in the reporting of the peace and I just over the course of this you know how you know how did you get into the right headspace to to endure and to into push through when you might otherwise have driven away and regretted it well I had to find ways to work around myself. Once I started, it started dawning on me just how much, how big this project was. The only thing I could hear in my brain was, I can't do this. I can't write eight to 10,000 words, which is what the brief was. I mean, I literally could not come up with anything else and I was worried that I was gonna get paralyzed. So what I did was,
00:40:37
Speaker
I said, okay, fine. You don't write an eight to 10,000 word piece. Write a 1,000 word piece and just do it eight to 10 times. And for some reason that helped me. So I had to come up with a very specific system. You know, you always hear around New Year's resolutions, like come up with little steps. And so I had to break everything down um and into, into each I separated the story into like eight to ten subjects and then I broke those down into specific steps and um it ends the the the steps in with each section with um going on ride or die. Have you used that? I haven't. No. Tell me about it. Oh my gosh.
00:41:23
Speaker
It's, I just use the free version. Sorry, Write or Die people, but it is amazing. So you go on and just, I think it's write or die.com and you can set like, okay, I i want to write 500 words. I want to do it in X amount of minutes. And I, so that calculates, you need to be writing these amount of words per you know, block a time and you can go kamikaze mode or not. I always go kamikaze mode. That is it. So it says, okay, you said everything and then you hit a button and it says, right. And you just start writing and you can't stop because if you stop writing, the screen starts slowly getting redder and redder. And because you put it on kamikaze mode, there's this horrendous
00:42:08
Speaker
screeching that comes in your ears. And it really kicks you into writing again. And if you start writing, it goes away. And I had to do it because my one goal was after I had outlined a section was, okay, just write it in full English sentences. They don't have to be good. just have to be full sentences. And because I figured if I could get myself to a first draft, editing wouldn't be no problem. So that was a major tool. for ah The whole thing was written with Ride or Die.
00:42:39
Speaker
Oh, that's great. you A lot of writers have their own idiosyncrasies to kind of get into the into the mode, be it a kind of ritual or or whatever. So you know for you and you know you, when you've got your raw material you're in your notes and stuff, you know what do you like to have in place to kind of warm up the engine in so you can get get going? Coffee, if I don't have a cup of coffee sitting next to me, for some reason that really affects my brain. I must have that. I have, when I'm not listening to the writer die screeching you know nails on a chalkboard sound, I go on Spotify. I have a playlist of instrumental, it's just instrumental, and I specifically didn't want any classical music because I didn't want to be able to recognize any of it because I didn't want my brain saying, oh, I wonder, is this Beethoven? And then going and looking.
00:43:25
Speaker
And I only listen to that playlist when I'm writing because I'm trying to train my brain. This is writing time. Yeah. AC and efforts. Well, you know how at times I ask the guests for a recommendation of some kind at the end of the show. And yeah this one will be no different. But ah given that we're talking about music and writing about the various playlists, let me just say ah Spotify playlist listening to whale songs. It's a pretty cool. I highly recommend it. It's ah got this moaning, ethereal, almost interplanetary kind of feel, but it's in the ocean. Just trust me. Trust me on that one. So, um yeah, and I always write at my desk. I have a big recliner in my office, but I can't write there.
00:44:20
Speaker
so Well, I'm pretty sure, I don't know if this is still the case, but I'm pretty sure Dave Eggers has just like an old laptop that's not connected to the internet at all, and like that's his composing laptop. And I think when Seth Godin, who writes, just ah he's a prolific writer, he's had a daily blog post anywhere from 100 words to 1,000 words or whatever for years and years and years, comes out every day. when he opens up his whatever program he blogs into like that's that's the mode of like oh when I'm in this program this is all I do I just I right here so there are all these little things that help us get into that headspace and it's always I'm always I just love hearing how people
00:45:06
Speaker
not trick themselves, but the things they put into place that like, oh, when I had like you, you've got your coffee and you've got that music. It's like, OK, now that is like a cue that you're in it. And yeah until you're ready to and pull out of that moment. Yeah, well, actually, I'm so glad to hear you say that because, I mean, I thought like, you're gonna think this is so weird. I'm telling them I have to trick my own brain to get my brain to work, but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one. um Yeah, you know, and like, I think for me, with with coming from the fact that I didn't, I don't have, ah I sort of just announced one day I was a freelance writer and and off I went, like, I hear a lot of, um
00:45:50
Speaker
you know like oh i can't do this or there's a problem and then you know like i don't know, I don't know what to do and I have to kind of sit myself back, you know come up with what would someone who knows what they're doing do? And then of course I always have a pad next to me with a pin and I and i really rely on on that when i'm when I'm getting myself stuck. I break it down in and I write down like task one because I love to cross things off too. So it's kind of like a little treat for me. you know Very satisfying. You get to yeah cross it off as you go.
00:46:25
Speaker
I'm glad you're kind of bringing some of this stuff up, because given that you don't have this traditional path through through journalism, there's a lot of imposter syndrome that goes on there. And that's ah just, it's natural. Even people who are pretty seasoned at this, when they kind of level up to say an Adivistian kind of word count and the ambitious storytelling that it takes to do that, it can feel like you're not, you can't measure up. So when when that voice creeps into your head, you know how do you how do you quell that voice or turn the volume down on it? I don't try to fight it. I say fine. Like like I told myself, fine. Then don't write in 8,000 to 10,000 piece. Find something you can do. And I don't care how small it is. And for me, that was, I can write 1,000 words. I know I can. To me, I had to find something in my experience that I could say, you can do it because you have done it.
00:47:22
Speaker
And so it was like breaking things down really helps me. I also, this sounds a bit corny, but I also remind myself, you know, i've I've had another career in another field and so much of my job now I would be doing if I won the lottery. Now, honestly, I don't know if I'd be writing as much or as long, but I still would be out wanting to see these things, wanting to meet these people and learn about things. And so it does help to say, would you like to go back to... I do a lot of talking to myself in my head, would you like to go back to what you're doing before? No, okay. It helps to put it into perspective. like My current problem is not overwhelming.
00:48:07
Speaker
Right. And you know given that you pivoted from law to journalism, you know a lot of people go the other way around because that they get kicked out of journalism and they go like, oh, I can go to law school
Career Transition: Overcoming Challenges
00:48:16
Speaker
or something. yeah But going to going to law school and then going to like freelance journalism, there's a a sunk cost element to it. like You invested all that time and money into a different kind of degree. And how did how were you able to kind of you know break out of that that sunk cost idea to pursue something that is far more nourishing for you? Yes, you're exactly exactly right with student loans and um it becomes, um yes, I'll just say you're right on that. It was really, really hard and I almost didn't intentionally mean to. It happened over a period of months, I would say, so I just was burnt out of, of
00:49:02
Speaker
and the legal field. um I was in Kentucky at the time and was going to move to Nashville to um be with my now husband. um And so i was I did the whole, you know, looking for a job, get a whole Tennessee law license and looking for a job here. And I found myself on Indeed. I wonder if I typed in something other than law. I'm just going to see. you know like let me Just let me look. and so I figured that was kind of a signal. There's a reason that you're looking for other things and I decided to try it. um I tried a job in ah in another field and um
00:49:45
Speaker
That was not something I wanted to stay with. And so I really, I thought, oh, I've um really messed up now because what am I gonna do? But I remember I was walking down the street and I saw a poster. This was in my job before um freelance writing. And it said something about getting a job that pays a lot of money. You need to stop and think, It's paying you a lot of money, but how much is it costing you? and That really resonated with me because I felt like what I had been looking for was costing me a lot and um in time and you know stress levels. and so That helped. and Then, of course, I don't want to misrepresent myself and I am not advocating for anyone to just quit their job. and
00:50:33
Speaker
you know um I would not be able to do it if it weren't for my husband. So that was something that we had to discuss. you know As I'm building a career, it was something that we discussed and and we decided to do and has worked out really well for us. Yeah, that's a good point. to underscore I like to do that, too. like My wife has ah a steady, well-paying job with the health health insurance. It allows me to do what I do, which is really up and down. And you know if it wasn't for her, you know ah other times in my career, I've really had to subsidize the journalism I wanted to do with, like,
00:51:07
Speaker
stocking produce at Whole Foods or some landscaping sometimes. so One of my award-winning features, not not bragging, but one of the features I won an award for, like I was doing reporting on a phone like during my lunch break ah ah ah as a landscaper. It was like 100 degrees out in Jersey City and I'm like in the shade on the phone like scribbling like hell my notebook. You know that turned into a feature thing and I just won a little regional magazine award. And it's ah yeah sometimes you you know when you really like these kind of things you know you got to you know spackle in the holes elsewhere because it doesn't pay a lot on its own. ah Hopefully it will down the road you know when you get into this mess. but
00:51:47
Speaker
It's ah a lot of us in freelance journalism. It's ah it's good to acknowledge the privilege of like the spouse with the steady job, which allows us to kind of navigate the rocky turbulent waters of freelancing. Yeah, I think it's just everyone has to consider for their themselves and their own situation and what works. um But it's it's particularly frustrating. um you know I feel like freelance journalism is such I know, obviously, I'm not biased, you know, but it because I'm a freelance journalist as well. But it's such a service. And um I feel like it's not always seen that way by, um you know, people that who who give you the yeses. And I am not talking about the activists here. They were very fair and wonderful. um But I just feel like it's such a struggle in some areas and doesn't or shouldn't be that way.
00:52:43
Speaker
Yeah. Oh yeah. ah For sure. I mean it drives a lot of people out because it's ah in unsustainable. And I've had conversations with people where it's almost like doing a long form features is almost akin to ah you know being a short story writer. It's just like you know it's oh you like writing short stories. It's kind of like a hobby. OK. So you. Yeah. Kind of do this if you can make a few bucks, great. Otherwise, you're doing it because there's a compulsion to do it, not because it's like this lucrative career where you can actually retire or something. It's like you know yeah there's something burning inside you that you got to get out. Yeah, and again, I want to be clear. The activist has been wonderful. They are not included in what I just said. um they They have been more than fair. and um
00:53:31
Speaker
Yeah, so but you know, it's for me, it's it's not like I kind of take a different approach. To me, it's just fun. um I just love finding these people. so I have a theory that I think most people that you pass by on the street every day are experts in something. um Be that a particular you know kitchen skill or a particular TV show or something. I mean, I wonder how many people I'm passing by every day that are absolutely fascinating that I don't get to talk to.
00:54:02
Speaker
So for me, this is just fun. I'm having a lot of fun. so Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah, there are always pluses and minuses. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And it's a keeping ah keeping it as light as possible and having fun with it can can certainly help ah you just endure the the grind of it at times, too. So like when you can find those things, you can really lock into it. Yeah, it makes it you know bearable you know when it when it does feel like, ah you know, the ceilings are just collapsing all around you like ah shit. And then you're like, and but but but when you are truly enjoying it and like that discovery process of the reporting and everything, it's like, OK, this is this is my why for why I'm doing this. Yeah, you know, I feel like I've also um I've gotten very attached to a yes, like it's like chasing this this yes for me, like.
00:54:58
Speaker
My brain now is now trained. Everything that happens to me, something in the back of my head is, how can I make this into a story? Or maybe I could pitch this to so-and-so. And it's because you send an email or a pitch, and you hope you've perfectly crafted it, and then just waiting for that to come back. And you get a yes, and it's such a high. And then so you write again. And of course, you go through a lot of no's before you get the next yes. But it's just like a built-in. endorphin booths ah
00:55:29
Speaker
yeah i think What's the nature of your your pitching process? How many you've got in the fire? How you're finding story ideas? ah How many you're throwing out at one time? you know how how how are you How are you navigating just the the nature of pitching? um I'm pitching all the time and I have always had multiple pitches out there that i'm i'm waiting to hear back on um i mean i haven't quite figured out like you said like it's sort of a feast or famine situation like i either have a bunch of interest and and then i'm sitting here thinking what have i done to myself how am i going to write all this or i'm like is my computer even working maybe something's wrong with my email so i haven't quite figured out how to even it out yet but i've sort of arranged things where i very i don't
00:56:20
Speaker
have to sit around and think, what should I pitch now? Because I'm interested in parks, i a long time ago, I subscribed to newsletters from every single um park system in the country, um national parks. Anytime I come across something that i is interesting, I sign up for a free newsletter. So as you can imagine, I get a lot of mail. But every morning, one of the things I do is I i go through my email and i'm I'm skimming, like, you know, subject lines. And sometimes I see something, I think that's interesting. And then I'll email, I'll find out who I can email, email them, kind of see if there's something there, you know, interview, do some pre-research and then pitch. And let's see. And then also I have I've always said I'll do this, and but it's never, I've never, you know, had magically enough time. Like, I'd like to sit down and do like a chart. How many of my published stories have come from the Tennessee State Parks in some way and
00:57:19
Speaker
I found just in Tennessee so many people doing interesting things with endangered animals and you'll find out you'll be researching you know one story and they'll just happen to mention oh so and so is doing. You know this research so then I go and do a story on that I'm going to be working on a story later this summer that I think is. ah I've already done one, two, I've done, this will be my fourth article um and I have a blog post as well that that comes from one accidental meeting with someone. um So for me, I mean, it's kind of like trying to get the most bang for your buck. like
00:57:59
Speaker
Like, after you're done interviewing someone, I kind of think about, like, what else could I write about from here? What else did they mention? And then follow up. Nice. and You know, you had mentioned that during the height of the pandemic, you were doing a lot, watching a lot of webinars and so forth. um But ah were there any anyone in particular that you were turning turning to for counsel or advice is to get that attraction that we were in you know talking about earlier, you know someone someone in your corner, a community? um Absolutely. Have you heard of a group called um the Society of Freelance Journalists? It's on Slack. On Slack? No, I haven't heard of that.
00:58:41
Speaker
Okay, then I would sign up for that. um That is such a wonderful resource. It was started in the UK, so it's a very UK... There are a lot of UK members, but it's gotten to the point where it's very international now. It was started by four journalists and during COVID to help the community, and it's just grown. And they're wonderful because you can go, people post opportunities like you know so-and-so is calling for pitches, that kind of thing. But then also when you, I don't have anyone else, I don't know anybody else who does my job in real life. um you Or you know that I know well enough that I could be like, this thing happened and I don't know what to do. And so I email or or email, I post you know a message on there and then people from all over the world say,
00:59:31
Speaker
Well, that happened to me and this is what I did. And so, yeah, they're they're wonderful. Oh, that's cool. Well, very nice. And it's free, also, by the way. Oh, nice. Yeah. ah Extra bonus there. Yeah. Nice. Well, ah well Maggie, like as I bring these conversations down for a landing, I always love asking the guests for a recommendation of some kind. Just anything you're excited about for the listeners out there. you know it just ah It could be a kind of ah a brand of notebook you really like, pencil or a book you're reading or just a brand of coffee. So I would just extend
Recommendation: Libby App for Free Resources
01:00:04
Speaker
that to you. when you know what's ah What are you excited about that you would recommend for the listeners?
01:00:08
Speaker
I would like to recommend, um if you have a public library that you're a member of, ah check and see if they have the Libby app, L-I-B-B-Y. um Because, of course, it has, you know, audiobooks and ebooks, which is great. But the thing that I think is so cool is um you can read magazines, national titles, you know local magazines for free through that app. um I even have it set it up where I get an email when the the latest issues of certain magazines I'm interested in are available.
01:00:43
Speaker
And um so another great free tool to stay up to date on, if you're you have a dream magazine, you know what a wonderful way to to become a regular reader and see, here's what they what they publish, here's their style. um It gives you so much information that you can use. And so I recommend that to everybody. Yeah, that's great. na and that's so As a a freelance journalist, it's ah so important, especially aspiring ones. you know If you have that that goal publication, it's you need to really read them and know them inside and out. You need to know if they've already run a story of that nature in the past. and you you get ah
01:01:21
Speaker
It can take a while to get a sense of what a publication is about. You you can't just read one issue and be like, oh, OK, and now I know it. You kind of have to ah be with them for several months, if not longer, to get a sense of like, oh, yeah, this story idea I have, like, I know exactly who would be a really good fit for it. And that'll come through in a pitch, too. Yeah. Yeah. And ah exactly. It just it gives you an edge. And if you can do that for free, then why not? Absolutely. Well, thanks, Maggie. it ah This is a wonderful conversation. So I just thought, thank you so much for the the cool, inspiring story for The Atavist. And ah yeah, thanks for coming on the show and talking shop. Well, thank you so much for having me.
01:02:05
Speaker
All right, well, thanks to Sayward, of course. Thanks to Maggie. You can go to magazine.adivis.com to read Maggie's story and also consider subscribing to The Adivis. For like 25 bucks a year, you get the blockbuster piece of journalism right to your, right to your inbox, basically. I mean, I guess, I mean, there's a there' is a newsletter and there's a link, you know, all that stuff. I don't get any kickbacks. We're just friends. Friends with pod benefits, right? Is that inappropriate? Probably. Parting shot. ah All right, so we're down in the last month with this prefontained book. For those of you who don't know, I'm writing a Steve prefontained biography, a famous runner. um All right, so give or take a day or so, I got like a month to go before this really needs to be locked in for copy edits. Legal, all that shit.
01:03:01
Speaker
My editor, to his credit, is still excited about the book. He even said the the sales team's excited about it, which is all the more terrifying. um but also encouraging, right? But I get the sense he's like a he's like a coach who is like watching his athlete just flub through drills, you know, like spinning the wrong way and he's just deeply wondering like, my God, like why why why can't this kid spin the right way or ah dribble with one hand? It's not that hard.
01:03:35
Speaker
ah Here's an example. Okay, there's a moment in 1970, cross-country championships, NCAA's, and one of Prefontaine's rivals – not really a rival, but kind of up here. Let's call him up here. ah He decides he's going to sprint to the front of the field and lead nationals through like the first half-mile to a mile. um Not because you can win, but because historically, track and field news always put the the the stampede of the field on the cover of the magazine. So he wanted to just sprint to the field, lead nationals, not because he can win, but because he wanted to get on the cover of track and field news. It's a joke to him. After the first mile or so, ah pre-catches up to this guy and is just he just looks at him, he's like, what the fuck are you doing? And just keeps going.
01:04:23
Speaker
Carries on. It's a great funny little scene unto itself. But my editor made this connection I didn't see coming. And I think he's mildly bummed that I don't see these types of things throughout the course of the book. It's happened numerous times and it will continue to happen until we're done. um To everybody else, getting to the lead like that is a joke. Also, to Pree at the time, his competition was a joke. And boom, that is the bigger meaning, an interpretation that you can extract from scenes that elevate them beyond mere points on the space-time continuum.
01:05:03
Speaker
And this is making the late-stage revisions particularly stressful because I wrote through the chronology, but biographies are more than just chronology. The author has to have the courage to wield some power by calling attention to certain events and, given the glut of research, interviews, and so forth, make assertions. ah The author spending so much time on a particular subject Is an expert on that it just is by the virtue of how much you're immersed in it And this isn't to say that when you're making assertions that it's a like an agenda Though I'm sure some authors do have an agenda, though but if the author doesn't bring their point of view Their point of reference a shaping then you might as well just read a Wikipedia page Yeah, when viewed through this prism
01:05:55
Speaker
Leaves naturally fall off the tree, you know, you know this cool vignette well neat while likely very well researched and laboriously crafted and isn't doing any real work for the book, so I guess it's got to go. Maybe for someone else's book and someone else's interpretation, it would be more germane, but not mine. So my editor challenged me to bring a similar eye to my work that I do for my podcast reading, you know, that getting behind the microscope and
01:06:29
Speaker
seeing how the atoms are bonding. you know It was cute that he called the pod my day job. i mean It would be cool if it paid even a part-time wage. it is It takes the time of a day job. ah Anyway, that that that's my failure as a business person and neither here nor there. and He's got a great point. But weathering the disappointment is tough for me in my particular headspace because You want to put a stamp on something because it's ready because it's great You're not merely because it got it BO is gotta get done and we're at that point where done is good enough. I Don't like that. I don't like the idea of that
01:07:11
Speaker
And there's a part of me that's not even 100% sure it'll be published because of my failure to make these kinds of bigger picture assertions and observations, which, if we're being honest, is not a great place to create and compose from. I'm writing more out of fear than joy. yeah All that said, it's coming together. It's distilling in the soup of photochemicals you know I'm moving things that are more thematically germane closer together and not merely as sequences on the timeline and trying to draw out a satisfying arc as to who this guy was and why he is he was the dawn of a new athlete and why he wasn't a since the last amateur athlete and why he was in many ways ahead of his time and why he still matters today.
01:08:05
Speaker
Do that in three weeks B.O. Otherwise, if you can do interview, see.