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Episode 383: Pete Croatto
1.2k Plays1 year ago
Pete Croatto is a freelance writer and author of From Hang Time to Prime Time. He's back to talk about that strange post-book period.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm on Beehiiv
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Social: @CNFPod and @creativenonfictionpodcast
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Transcript
Coffee Talk and Podcast Introduction
00:00:02
Speaker
I got my iced coffee. I got my iced, call me Lizzie, but I enjoy Fair Trade Organic Instant Coffee. It's affordable, it's easy, and I don't need your judgment.
00:00:23
Speaker
Today's episode is brought to you by the word empty containing nothing, having none of the usual or appropriate contents. Empty when you look within and find nothing. It's always been my belief that the best writers are always the ones who are not assholes.
00:00:49
Speaker
Oh hey seeing efforts at CNF Pod, the creative non-fiction podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara.
Meet Pete Croato
00:01:02
Speaker
Pete Croato, author of From Hang Time to Primetime, a freelance writer whose work has appeared in the New York Times, Grantland, R.I.P., GQ,
00:01:14
Speaker
Philly Magna, RIP is not a magazine, though I imagine it is, but everyone who talks about Grantland says RIP. The ringer just isn't the same. Pete has also written for Pointer, as well as journalism adjacent stuff like advertorials, brand writing, trade magazines. That's really how you make your buck.
00:01:34
Speaker
Not only is Pete a great writer and reporter, but he's an advocate for great reporting and great writing. A celebratory voice. That, in my opinion, we can use far more of. Yeah, I ended that sentence in a preposition. What are you going to
Newsletter Transition and Podcast Promotion
00:01:49
Speaker
do about it? While I have your undivided attention, I will be moving my newsletter from Substack to Beehive.
00:01:56
Speaker
It's a more traditional newsletter delivery service in the mold of MailChimp or one of the other ones. Constant contact, I don't know. I don't trust Substack long term. I have my reasons. I deleted my Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter on Substack. I still hold a account, if you will, with Substack for notes. I'm probably gonna divorce myself of that soon. So the newsletter, it's solely on Beehive now. So if you've already subscribed,
00:02:25
Speaker
No interruption in service, but the way you need to sign up for it is to either go to a ridge against the algorithm dot beehive dot com. That's B-E-E-H-I-I-V dot com. Or go to Brendan DeMera dot com for show notes to this episode, blog posts, and to sign up for the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. First of the month, no spam. So far as I can tell, you can't beat it.
00:02:50
Speaker
If you dig the show, we're always looking for nice reviews on Apple Podcasts, so the wayward CNF'er might say, shit, I'll give that a shot. I don't know who Brendan is, but, well, I see that he's spoken with David Gran, or that must be cool, I mean, that's nice. Laura Hillenbrand from way back in the day, I remember her.
00:03:10
Speaker
Brendan, talk to them. Can't be a total idiot. Shout out to Athletic Brewing, the best damn non-alcoholic beer out there. Not a paid plug. You know that by now. I'm a brand ambassador and I want to celebrate this amazing product. If you head to athleticbrewing.com, use the promo code BRENDANO20 at checkout. You get a nice little discount on your first order. I don't get any money and they're not an official sponsor of the podcast, though if they want to.
00:03:36
Speaker
I just get points for swag and beer. Give it a shot.
Impact of Pete's First Book and Writing Challenges
00:03:44
Speaker
So it was great to catch up with Pete because he's roughly three years out from the release of his first book. And believe me, it will be his first book from Hang Time to Prime Time, sort of real fun book about the NBA and the watershed moment of when it went from one thing to another, one from relative obscurity to worldwide world-conquering power. It's just a fun toe tap and good read.
00:04:13
Speaker
And Pete was in a conflicted pet space about its reception and how writing one book doesn't necessarily guarantee you the opportunity to write another. How thinking that the writing of a book will complete you and it's kind of like this end point or this end game.
00:04:30
Speaker
And if anything, it's just the book does not make you whole. Ultimately, the book is merely on the continuum of whatever your writer path is through this career. It's definitely not like an A to Z kind of career. It is just...
00:04:50
Speaker
all over the place. I mean, you go into different physical dimensions. It is not merely a two-dimensional journey.
Uncovering Rich Storytelling
00:04:59
Speaker
There's three dimensions. There is Z-axis shit going on. There is fourth dimension stuff going on. I don't know what I'm talking about. He saw it as an opportunity to learn to improve Stepping Stone. As I say in this conversation, a book, it's really just a, it's a great business card.
00:05:20
Speaker
Odds are we're not gonna make a lot of money, or any, from writing a book, but to say that you've got something like that, it's a great business card. I love talking to writers between books, so this was a really nice chat. And here's just a little thing. I figure since maybe some people don't even know, I tend to have a parting shot at the end of the show. I just assume, you know what happens when you assume,
00:05:46
Speaker
So I'm just gonna say today's parting shot to give you a little teaser is just about writerly detours. If you want to hang around I'm gonna talk about writerly detours and you can learn about what I mean by that by sticking around at the end of the show but until then I sure as hell hope you enjoyed this conversation with me and my pal Pete Croato.
00:06:17
Speaker
talk about it. I love the period in between books.
Debunking Linear Writing Career Myths
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, I yeah, it's funny. I don't think many people don't really talk about the in between time. And I think there's an assumption that, you know, while you write one book, and then you're meeting on to book two, three, four, five, and what have you. And, you know, as I've
00:06:39
Speaker
done this longer, that's not the case. I think, you know, there are plenty of people that write one book and that's all they do and they move on to other things in their career or people, you know, people like, you know, the Mark Harris's and Jeff Perlman's of the world who, you know, write a book every two to three years. So everyone's different. And I think there's, you know, the thing is, there's no, the
00:07:02
Speaker
There's no right way to do this. And I think if, if this conversation can illuminate that, that'd be great. Cause I think people think, well, you know, I write a book and from here on, and from that point on it's everything's gravy and it's not, I mean, you still have to be flexible and be open to what, what comes your way. And, and, and, you know, I think you need to not have these static ideas of, of what, of what's going to happen down the road because no one really knows.
00:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, it can feel like, especially for people like us who are primarily sports writers, that's the sandbox we like to play in the most is sports. And we look at someone like a Jeff Perlman who seems to be able to chain-smoke these incredible
00:07:48
Speaker
meaty, juicy biographies. And that is a measure of success and probably one that you and I would love to aspire to. But it could be that that is just the Jeff Perlman railroad track. And it's just like we have to kind of find our own in that ecosystem. No, I mean, you absolutely have to. I think, again, you can certainly take inspiration from riders and how they work and what they do and their approach.
00:08:15
Speaker
The minute you think, well, that has to be my path. That's the moment where you get into trouble because you're, you're, you're chasing something that is, that is, that you can't, you can't catch up to. There are so many people who would love to be the next John Feinstein or the next Jack McCallum or the next Susan Arlene or, or, or whomever. But, you know, if you, if you get so obsessed about chasing that path, you're not going to be the best version of who you, of who you can be.
00:08:44
Speaker
So it's but yeah, I'm with you. I would love to be in a position like Jeff where, you know, every two years you write up, you write an amazing book and it and it gets a lot of attention and a lot of completely justified praise. But, you know, that's not everyone's going to get not everyone's going to get on that boat. Very few people are. I think I don't you know, I'm trying to think I don't mean who I don't how many Jeff problems are there. How many John Feinstein's are there? They're very just just by saying that they're very few. You know, it's not it's. Yeah.
00:09:13
Speaker
It's not a cottage industry, and that's probably for the best because, again, I can't imagine a bunch of people writing these media biographies that require 800 interviews. It's not for everybody. I think most people would burn out or decide to pursue the priesthood if they wanted to go in that direction. Yeah, the whole thing about having
00:09:39
Speaker
reading the acknowledgments of Perlman's Bo Jackson book, especially, and he interviewed 700 people for it. And that's a certain standard that I think people like us will hold ourselves to. And that's one of the details that only people like us really notice. And so you kind of hold yourself to that standard. Like, oh my god, for this book I'm writing, I need to interview hundreds and hundreds of people to show that I did the work.
Efficiency in Reporting: Quality over Quantity
00:10:08
Speaker
You know, it's it is it is a nice benchmark to get as many voices possible because it leads it leads to serendipity. You'll hear things that you didn't even see coming. But sometimes you can get just as much out of 200 or 150 or maybe you just don't have time to interview 700 people and that's OK. No, it's it's look, I mean, you spoke to Wudan Yan a few a few weeks ago and she mentioned that whole fallacy of reporting to the ends of the earth. And sometimes that's required. Absolutely. I think
00:10:38
Speaker
But sometimes you don't need that much and you can absolutely over report and you can absolutely get so bogged down in details that you lose the main thread of the story. Years ago, I was talking to somebody who talked about working with someone at the Washington Post who was just an incredibly efficient, efficient sports writer where they could just interview two or three people and get, and those were the best people. They always had the best source, the best quotes, the best anecdotes, the best revelations. And,
00:11:07
Speaker
That writer was David Remnick, who now is the editor of The New Yorker. And he had this incredible knack, according to this person I spoke to, I don't remember who it was, to just get the best out of the fewest number of sources. So you're right. There's no law that says you have to interview 500 people or 300 people or even 200 people. I know with your pre-Fontaine book, you're up to how many interviews now? 60, 65?
00:11:33
Speaker
That's a really healthy number. And if 65 or 75 or 85 is the number to get the best book possible, that's more than enough. That's something to be proud of. Yeah, I have a problem of holding myself to that number of quantity being quality. And I think to a certain extent that is true when trying to do a juicy biography.
00:11:57
Speaker
But the guy died when he was 24 right, you know in 1975 You know, he lived a very short life. He did influence and and yeah influence a lot of people and he left an impression on a lot of people and but also I also have a pretty short runway and if I had another year, yeah, maybe I do get to 200 300 in that neighborhood, but at what point would I just be
00:12:23
Speaker
Circling myself because some of the conversations I've had I when I go and be like, you know Who else should I talk to be like talk to x y and z I'm like, oh cool I've you know, I've already spoken to them at least once and so I'm getting a lot of repeat already in in that so that's Validating in one sense, but also like, you know, you still want to
00:12:40
Speaker
You still want to find some of those less interviewed people, some of the people you ran against in high school who might have beaten them in high school, who have never been on the record. And they're some of the people who are the most excited to talk and who have given some of the most illuminating anecdotes that have been, they're just kind of like tickled to be folded into the prefrontal lore where other people have ignored them.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's the people that are in the margins are always the best, you know, and then I've talked about this a bunch, but people will always ask me with the book, well, oh, who is the most exciting person or the best person you spoke to?
00:13:16
Speaker
in in reporting and I think they always expect me to say to say julius irving or or george gervin or You know some some basketball player that they remember from from their childhood But it's always somebody who they've never heard of it's always the administrative assistant You know who worked two years in the NBA offices or or somebody who worked for the denver nuggets for 15 years. It's it's
00:13:42
Speaker
And those people, you're right. No one ever bothers to talk to them about them because they're not quote unquote stars or not bold faced names.
00:13:53
Speaker
those are the best people to talk to because they haven't told their stories ad nauseam. They're not indifferent to a reporter's questions. They're not going to just rehash the same old anecdotes. So yeah, it's great. And those quotes, those stories are always what make the narrative sing, I think. I don't know. I'm sure you'll talk to Phil Knight. I'm sure we'll talk to some other people who
00:14:16
Speaker
You know our our quote unquote big names, but i'm sure the best quotes will be from That writer from sorry that runner who ran against pre fontaine when he was a junior in high school or You know or whomever it's it's I mean, those are the people that that make up uh, the fabric of a life You know and it's not just not just the people that everyone everyone's read about uh in the sports page I love being I love being in that in that discovery
Crafting a Narrative: Small Insights
00:14:41
Speaker
process. I just finished a
00:14:44
Speaker
a big feature. The big fun of it was just to get those little nuggets and string them together. And it's just, again, one pearl isn't much, but you get a whole bunch of them, they turn into a mighty fine necklace. And that's what I love about reporting and digging is that
00:15:02
Speaker
You get enough pearls and you can create something that's pretty remarkable. And that's really all that it is. It's just, it's all reps. I remember the first time writing, you know, long, long, going quote unquote long form and writing, you know, 2000 words, 2000 words. And it felt like I was.
00:15:20
Speaker
You know, climbing Everest on my hands and knees and it's the more that you do what the easier it gets and it becomes a job, you know, becomes like, OK, well, I need to get a thousand words today because, you know, I have X, Y and Z do tomorrow. I have these things to do. And, you know, when when it.
00:15:38
Speaker
When you're able to fight that balance between it being a passion and a profession, that's when you really hit the sweet spot. I mean, you've done this for so long. It's innate now, I would think, with you, with a lot of writers. It's just, okay, this is what I do. I get up, I write.
00:15:55
Speaker
I repeat the next day, but it's yeah, but it's exciting i'm so eager to read the book and i'm sure it's going to be great and you clearly you clearly care about the subject too, which is just You know, it's it'll show it'll show on the page and and that's it's You know, it's it's this is this is the good times and i'm you know, I mean it sounds it may not feel like it but It's going to be
Fears and Structure in Writing Process
00:16:18
Speaker
great
00:16:18
Speaker
Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, it's what's been what's been especially because I do get like the 3am the 3am voice and knocks on my door and it's almost every night and it's one of those things where
00:16:34
Speaker
And I have started the writing to some extent because that deadline is close, but it's also my editor is just like, you know, you do want to start some of the writing because you want to see where some of the holes are and see where the pie I call it laying down road and seeing where potholes emerge. And that way, re-reporting certain things, you can go back far more targeted.
00:16:55
Speaker
But still, some things in my head are just a bit mushy. I like to sometimes be able to see the structure in my head and then proceed, but everything now, it still seems very, yeah, just soft and mushy, and it's sometimes hard to, there used to be these toys in the 80s, it was like a rubber tube, it looked like a worm, and you would never play with one of those, and you would squeeze it.
00:17:22
Speaker
And it would kind of, you couldn't get your grip on it because it would kind of like squeeze out either the top of your hands or the bottom of your hand. It was just like, and that's kind of what the structure of the book feels to me right now. And sometimes it can be hard to report and to write or just to even start working because you just can't, like somebody have a hard time envisioning it.
00:17:43
Speaker
And having a better map, I feel, I just need a better map and I'm still forming the map. And I think once that map is properly written out, so to speak, I'll be able to really get some momentum. I think once you go through the transcripts, it'll start to solidify. Like once you hold the transcripts in your hand and start highlight, this works for me, you start highlighting and writing notes. I mean, it just, it's, it all starts to come together. But yeah, I mean, it's,
00:18:12
Speaker
But it's mushy, but it's better than there not being anything. If you were thinking, if you thought to yourself, well, what do I have? And your mind was a blank, that would be a big problem. But you have something that's nebulous and coming into shape, which is good. That's a good thing. It's a big deal to write something this big and to have all these ideas and to try to corral them.
00:18:41
Speaker
into one tube of thought that makes its way to the reader. It's exciting, but it's also fun and a little scary. This is what we all spend our lives trying to do. It's great that you get a chance to do it again. I would love to write another book and I hope I get to do it soon to just keep at it. It's such a wonderful, scary,
00:19:10
Speaker
Lovely challenge, and I don't know if there's a better way to describe it. Yeah, it certainly is. It is terrifying. Especially when you're talking to people that have spoken on the record a bit, and a lot of people I talk to will be like, I don't know how you're going to come up with anything new that hasn't already been said.
00:19:30
Speaker
And I haven't run into any adversarial people, only one. But of the dozens of people I've interviewed, most people are more than happy to talk, and they're really happy to, for the most part, because they want to honor Steve's legacy. It was 50 years since he died, and he still matters.
00:19:46
Speaker
And they're happy to try to go down memory lane and sometimes dig up more memories that they almost never knew existed. But yeah, it is scary sometimes to be like, all right, you got to corral all this information. You got to make it coherent. And you got to make it feel fresh. And that's always the challenge when retreading.
00:20:11
Speaker
a subject matter, be it a Jonathan I going with Martin Luther King. I haven't read that book, but I imagine he ran into those challenges like, what more can be said about MLK? And he wrote a gigantic biography and he found a way. Yeah, I mean, there's always a way. I think there's always a way to cover something differently. There's always a way to write about something differently.
00:20:33
Speaker
And again, I'm sure when you pitched this book and you thought about it forever about how to portray him, what the media had gotten wrong, there's always a way to make something.
00:20:50
Speaker
your own. And it's, that's, again, that's part of the whole beautiful, horrible, nauseating challenge of this is to try and make it your own and make it something that's worthwhile for readers with anything, any, any
Perpetual Incompleteness of Stories
00:21:04
Speaker
topic. Yeah.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, and when I was talking to off mic, you know, I occasionally talk with Bronwyn Dickey. She's kind of like a cheerleader in my corner. Sometimes we talk at length in the first conversation we had. And she was like, you know, it doesn't have to be like the book, the book of record on him. It just has to be the next one in the river. You know, you're standing on the shoulders of people who have written about him before and then maybe down the road, someone will stand on your shoulders and find
00:21:31
Speaker
other things like you don't have to be the be all end all it's just like you are you're just putting your particular stamp on this story at this moment in time and I was like okay that's that's a really astute way of think framing it
00:21:44
Speaker
I mean, that's a wonderful way to look at it. And there's a quote that I always go back to. You may have heard it, but it's from Megan Dom, who's an essayist, and she wrote once. And I've never forgotten this quote. She wrote, in the history of the world,
00:22:04
Speaker
There's never been a complete story told that has always made me feel that's always been a comfort to me because you're never going to get the entire complete story on something. So it's that's always been a comfort to me because it's well, you know, I can't tell the whole story. It's impossible. But it's also a way to tell another side of the story. So.
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's what she said was very spot on. And I think Glenn Stoutman is on the show. You can control your effort. And that's what it comes down to. You can write the best possible book and put the most you can into it. That's all that you can do.
00:22:39
Speaker
In emails that we bandied back and forth, I loved what you said about just talking about the experience of having written your first book, and then you were seeing as the progress from either one to the next, or whether you get to write one again, you're seeing it as a continuum, not a condemnation.
Growth through Writing a Book
00:23:01
Speaker
I would love for you to just run with that a little more, because that was such a great way of framing the head space you're at. Yeah.
00:23:10
Speaker
I thought that writing. I thought that writing a book was sort of just, you know, be a life changing thing and it really isn't. It's really about
00:23:19
Speaker
another set of experiences that you use to build your career going forward. And that's the key with anything, any piece of writing. I'm no longer under the impression that anything that I write is going to stop the world in its tracks and get all the kids in the world to hold hands and sing kumbaya. To me, it's about learning what I can do to keep doing this because this is not
00:23:45
Speaker
This is a very, very precarious profession. There were a lot of times in my life where I didn't think I'd be riding at all. There were times where I thought I was done with this and I was going to be
00:24:00
Speaker
doing something else. I am very, very fortunate to keep doing this. And I look at each thing that I do, whether it's a book, whether it's a Q&A, whether it's a lengthy profile or whatever, it's a learning opportunity. It's an opportunity to get better. And with a book, it's the same thing. A book isn't a gold star. It doesn't make you better or special.
00:24:28
Speaker
It's another opportunity to, to, to learn to get better and it's an opportunity to, to continue your career. So that's how I look at it. I mean, I used to think that writing a book was just sort of, Oh, it's going to be this and it's going to be that it's going to be such a special occasion. And it really isn't. It's, it's a, it's an opportunity to, to apply what you've learned to write something to the best of your ability. And it's also an opportunity to get better.
00:24:55
Speaker
And I think that's how I look at it now with everything. And I think it's made me a happier, more well-adjusted person. I don't know if any writer is ever at that point, but for me, it's been- Yeah. The book in a lot of ways is like, it's a really good business card, you know? Yeah, absolutely. I have a theory that every time you write something, you get a key.
00:25:20
Speaker
And that key unlocks a door, but you don't know what door it's going to unlock and you don't know. When that, when that key is going to work. And I think, I think when you write a book, it is, it is very much like a business card. And I think it's also like getting like three or four sets of keys that may open a door to something else or may not. And you have to just keep, keep trying. Like there's nothing, nothing is really is nothing is given to you. I think when you write something, I think there's,
00:25:47
Speaker
I always had this expectation that if you wrote for a high profile place, that that was going to be a calling card or a springboard or something. And in many cases it's not. It's just, it's another business card. It's another key that you can use, that you can put in your key ring to try and open a few more doors. And that, that's, you know, that's, that attitude sort of helped me. I know it sounds very, you know, very, it's very, it's a very reductionist way to look at it, but it's, it's, it's really helped me because it's, it's given,
00:26:17
Speaker
give some order to what can be kind of an unstable business sometimes. Oh, for sure. And I think taking it even a step farther is it's a key to open up a door for you. And then as you elevate your sort of your levels of responsibility to the community at large, it's a way for you to leave the door open for someone else maybe coming up behind you also. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I
00:26:41
Speaker
I mean, I'm a big fan of paying it forward or providing advice. I mean, it's because God knows I've gotten so much help from other writers and I still do. So yeah, I mean, if I can save someone some grief and provide a shortcut, I'm happy to do it. There's no downside to it. I really do think that this is a business
00:27:08
Speaker
an industry that's built on camaraderie and it's it's built on on on relationships. And I and it's it's always been it's always been my belief that the best writers are always the ones who are not assholes. Like, you know, I've, you know, David grand, not an asshole, Susan Arlene, not an they're all generous, thoughtful people who are who will happily lend a hand.
00:27:35
Speaker
to a rider with a question or who's confused. And I like to do that. I would like to be someone who can help out when possible. And if I have the more, and as you put it so eloquently, the more keys I have, the more doors I can open for someone to get in. So they're not spending a year or two banging on a door in futility.
00:28:01
Speaker
Now, I think there's a way to ask this question. Some people might ask, all right, so you've got the one book in your back pocket. And some people might be like, all right, how would you approach it differently? And I think that's not a valuable question. I think the better thing is what lessons did you learn from Hangtime to Primetime that you're eager to deploy for your follow-up when that chance arises?
00:28:30
Speaker
That's a good question. There are many things. I would love to... I would spend more time making sure the prose is right. I would spend more time just being careful. I think I was so obsessed with trying to hit the deadline that it became very...
00:28:50
Speaker
I didn't take the time to make the prose as tight as it could be, to make the prose sing the way it should. I'm very happy with the book. I mean, this is not a knock against the book. I think the book is, I'm proud of the book. I think the book will hold up. It's such a fun book. I'm happy with it. Thank you. But are there ways, could the book have been cleaner, leaner, more accurate? Absolutely. And I think that's what I talk about when I talk about I can team, that's what I mean, is that I learned things from that book.
00:29:20
Speaker
that I will carry on with my own writing in smaller outlets. And when I write a second book, one thing will be to take the time to make the prose right. And that's the advantage of when you write quickly, you can take the time to go back and read and tweak. I should have been more careful on that side. I also would have leaned more on people around me, meaning I would have had people read chapters after I read them. I would have hired
00:29:49
Speaker
I would have hired fact checkers because fact checking a book.
00:29:53
Speaker
that size with that many interviews and references on my own was was a lot. So I would have loved to have a second pair of eyes on that. I know that you interviewed an author recently, Michael Finkel, who said that. Yeah. Yeah. He spends what? Like, I think it's between I don't want to say five and eight thousand for a good factor to use two on his latest book, too, because. Yeah. Yeah. Which is crazy. I'm not sure I can do that, but I'm sure I can hire somebody who can
00:30:20
Speaker
at least help me in some of the more information-packed places. So those are the two big lessons, or three big lessons, would be to just take my time and to just really put more of my effort into it and more of my resources into it. Because look, if you're writing a book, you're not doing this to make money.
00:30:46
Speaker
I mean, a lot of people do, but I think for a lot of people, money really isn't the end goal here. I think the end goal is to have a business card or to have a product that you can present to the world to say, hey, I can do this and here's my output. So I probably would have put a little bit more money into making sure that I had the best possible product out there. I know that sounds very...
00:31:12
Speaker
MBA-ish and very dry and practical, but I think there's a practical side to this that I think needs to be approached. I mean, yeah, you should be creative and you should be inventive when you write anything, but there's also a part of any writing where you need to be a business person and you need to think about, okay, well, how can this be better in very practical, pragmatic ways? So I would definitely,
00:31:42
Speaker
you know, you I would definitely I so I definitely so the approaches that I have with the with book two if I write a second book are definitely more pragmatic and more scheduling and more about about making the product better and using and using time efficiently. So yeah, I mean, it's the style stuff is that me and my style is my style. And I'll, you know, I'm constantly working on making that better. But
00:32:09
Speaker
The lessons in the book that I keep playing back to are very much the drab, day-to-day practical applications. And I think I've heard Seth Godin say something to the effect of, as freelancers or independent contractors, whatever, we tend to be the worst bosses of ourselves.
Therapy and Self-Care for Writers
00:32:33
Speaker
And if we had a boss like this at a normal, at a different company, we'd find a new job.
00:32:39
Speaker
So for you over the years, and especially maybe since you were writing the book as well as your freelancing and so forth, how have you learned to be a better boss to yourself? Yeah. I mean, that's really true. And for the longest time, I was the shittiest boss in the animal. I would just stare at my computer screen and just try to will words to come up on the screen and try to get something done.
00:33:08
Speaker
It was just such a fruitless endeavor. Um, I will tell you one thing how I've been a better boss is that I've, I've been, I mean, this happened 10, 10 years ago is that I, I got into therapy and that really helped because I needed to slow down. I needed to talk to someone other than my wife, uh, or, um, or whatever. I was comfortable telling my parents. So I, so I, so finding.
00:33:37
Speaker
getting real about the fact that I needed to speak with someone, I needed to be better with myself, and seeking therapy and eventually taking antidepressants was a huge help. And I can't just enough, if anyone out there is feeling
00:33:58
Speaker
overly stressed or constantly pressured or harried, it's okay to ask for help. Like you don't have to gut through it. And for the longest time I tried to gut through those feelings. And it was a lot like using scotch tape and paper clips to fix a broken leg. It was horribly ineffective and even damaging.
00:34:25
Speaker
And I think that ties into the second point, which is I'm not treating this as some sort of, you know, running the phalanx, colosseum, fighting the lion.
00:34:42
Speaker
I mean, I'm putting wars on a page. I'm not diffusing bombs. So I've kind of put things in perspective and I take breaks. I try to take a lot of breaks. If I'm not up to doing something, I don't do it. And I think also helping, what has also helped matters is having a family, having a child. Because that child looks at me, or my daughter, or our daughter, I should say,
00:35:07
Speaker
looks at me as a model to find their way in the world, to live in the world. And I can't do that if I'm a
00:35:17
Speaker
stark raving lunatic because I can't because, you know, someone didn't accept my pitch or I can't get the sentence right. So it's a it's a matter of just of just getting out of the shell. And that means that means that means visiting people talking on the phone, maintaining a human connection because that gets very easily lost in in freelance writing because I'm by myself all day, you know, I'm in an office and
00:35:43
Speaker
you know, can get a little, uh, can get a little, um, Jack Torrance in the shining, um, if I don't watch my step. So I try and be, I try and just practice self care and self compassion. And I try to remember that my actions and what I'm doing don't affect me anymore. They affect my wife, they affect my daughter. Um, and they, I also have a circle of family and friends who care about me. So I don't want to be,
00:36:13
Speaker
I don't want to make their lives harder. And that's something that took me far, far too long to realize. Yeah. I imagine that once you surrender to that, it kind of opened things up for you in ways you're like, oh, it doesn't have to be this difficult anymore.
00:36:33
Speaker
No, it doesn't. And that was the thing. I always used to think that pressure was a gift. That, OK, well, if I if I always assume that I'm one false move away from from disaster or I'm if I if I get complacent, I'm going to set myself up for a Tony Montana like fall. Once I realized that I didn't need that pressure, that that pressure was just imaginary, that I didn't need that to do a good job, it really it really opened my eyes.
00:37:03
Speaker
You know, it's, and I'm still dealing with that, you know, I'm never, I'm never going to be a hundred percent worry free. And I think it's, and that's the same thing with writing. Like I'm never going to be a perfect writer. I'm never going to be, I'll be, you know, I'll be as the good, the best writer can be, but I'm never going to be perfect. I'm never going to be worry free. I'm never going to.
00:37:23
Speaker
you know, be a happy go lucky, uh, sprite, but I can work on being the happiest version of myself. And I think when I realized that I, a lot of the work didn't be, didn't seem, didn't, the work became less, less, um, burdensome. And I think my wife was happier with that. I think my daughter was happy with that. And, and I, and by extension, I'm happier because of that. So yeah, like it's.
00:37:53
Speaker
It was important to get that clarinet. I got it in the nick of time. That's great to hear. And it's great to hear you on the other side of that realizing the possibility of that next chapter getting through those brackish waters and getting to the fresh side. Yeah, that's great to hear.
00:38:18
Speaker
No, I appreciate that. No, I mean, I couldn't have written a book. I couldn't have written the book without therapy. I mean, I couldn't have written the book if I hadn't taken care of taking care of myself.
00:38:28
Speaker
And, you know, or try to take care of myself. And I mean, yeah, if I had gotten this book deal when I was 25 or 26, that would have been a major problem. I think, I think it would have affected my life and not in a, not in a positive way. So if I sound a little kumbaya kumbaya ish, a little, or a little Pollyanna ish, it's, it's with good reason because I think, you know, I'm, I'm still trying to figure out what works best for me and what
00:38:55
Speaker
what I can do to, you know, enjoy the work that I'm doing and be passionate about it without being without being without working myself into a into a lather. Again, that's that's a that's a continuous process. I don't think it's for me, at least it's it's going to be something that I have to I have to monitor. And, you know, the fact that I get to to do that and, you know, have a happy family and and do what I love. I mean, it's a gift and I try to look at it. I try to look at it that way.
00:39:24
Speaker
And I love in our correspondence how you wrote that the chance to get better excites me to no end.
Endless Improvement in Writing Skills
00:39:31
Speaker
And I really love that sentiment. And I wonder what you would identify as things that you feel like you can continually get better at and tighter at, and maybe things that on this day you know you are far better than you were five years ago or even 10 years ago. I don't know. It's everything.
00:39:53
Speaker
I don't know if there's really one thing that I need to get better at. I feel like I have to get better at everything. I have to write tighter sentences. I have to not rely on quotes. I have to make sure that every fact that comes in is verified and it's everything. That doesn't bother me because I think it's such a gift to be in an occupation that's never boring. I don't know. I can't really think of a, I'm sure,
00:40:22
Speaker
someone will say, well, you know, you still use block quotes or, oh, you should stop using butts in the word button leads. And I, I'm sure, I'm sure that'll come. But to me, it's just, I, I feel like I can get better at everything. And I feel like that's the, that's the, that's the, that's such, that's such the joy of writing is to be in that position where you can always figure out something new about yourself and try to improve. That's the beauty of it. I,
00:40:52
Speaker
You know, and that's the thing. I think the moment that I say, well, you know, I'm as good as I can be. I think that's it. I think then that's, that's, I should find something else. And that's why I love working with really good editors who can show me, who can show me things or who can reveal, um, uh, who can reveal shortcomings or, or, uh, or things that I've missed. It's, it's a gift. I mean, that's why I want to, I want to work with really good editors because, you know, it's like, it's like going, it's like taking a masterclass and,
00:41:22
Speaker
I never want to be in the position where I just say, step to every suggestion an editor has. I mean, I think when I get to that point, when I get to the point where I don't want to improve, that's when I'll be very, very concerned. But I'm not at that point yet, so that's good. I think I have a little more time though.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah, and the thing is about improvement in skill development is that it's so fluid that you almost don't recognize when you've gotten better. If you're doing it right and you're just learning little by little and you're writing a little by little and you're interviewing a little by little every single day, over five years, over ten years, suddenly you're like,
00:42:04
Speaker
I'm pretty good at this. I can still get better, but it's not like on one day you're mediocre and then on Tuesday you were great. It's like evolution. It happens very slowly by natural selection. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It happens over years and years and years.
00:42:29
Speaker
It is so gradual. And I think that's why a lot of people get frustrated with writing because it's they think they want it. They think they they want to be good right out of the box. They want to be terrific and write these crisp, wonderful sentences or they want to write these long elaborate paragraphs that
00:42:45
Speaker
that that fall like streamers on a parade and it's it's just it takes a lot of work to get there it's it's the progress is so slow it can that's why it turns off so many people because they want they want to be good right away and i i'm the same way i i don't think you know i'm 45 i don't have i don't really have a lot of time to get better at something i want if i'm starting to be good at right away and
00:43:07
Speaker
that impatience can kill you. I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to do this because it's not fun. I mean, it's not fun to rethink five years ago and be like, oh yeah, I'm slightly better than I was. I'm slightly better now than I was in 2018. But that's, I don't know, but that's what makes it, I just
00:43:29
Speaker
The fact that that it is you can see that improvement with time and and and investment that is that is that that is the juice for me. I love to see that. But yeah, I can I can actually understand why someone just doesn't want to be bothered with it because yeah, it's it's not.
00:43:43
Speaker
It's not automatic. It's not instantaneous. But I don't know. Maybe it is. Maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was at this. It's such a lengthy process that I can absolutely understand why people don't want to do this. But I'm in it for the long haul. I love it. I'm in love with the whole process of it.
00:44:04
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's one of those things where if you're getting in shape, you feel like you need to drop some fat off your frame just to take some weight off your joints and stuff, to be told that try to lose like a half a pound a week for a year.
00:44:25
Speaker
the things you're not going to really feel that coming off your body, but like in a year's time, that'll be 26 pounds and you'd be like, wow, that is a lot in a blink. That's a lot. But over the course of time, you don't really feel it. But the end product is there and you're like, oh, I'm objectively a bit leaner and I'm feeling a bit better. But you almost want it to be like the weight vest. Like I just want this to be ripped off me and so I can feel the how good it feels right away.
00:44:53
Speaker
but you really just have to be so incrementally disciplined and focused and then yeah over time all suddenly you notice like oh yeah my the way i might be asking questions the way it might be guiding an interview the way i might be constructing a sentence might just get a bit more efficient they i just more active i naturally write in the active voice
00:45:15
Speaker
So down the road I'm not going to have to worry about trimming all those helping verbs. They just kind of naturally edit out of my head into my fingertips, but that comes through 15 years of doing it every day. Yeah, and it comes also through 15 years of reading every day.
00:45:33
Speaker
of, you know, okay, reading writers who are better than I am. Okay. And, and, and it never stops. It never ever
Joy in Lifelong Writing Journey
00:45:40
Speaker
stops. And some people might, might see, see that as a death sentence, but I see that as, again, as a, as a wonderful way to make a living because it's never boring. You know, you're always, there's always a different way to get better. There's always a different way to challenge yourself. And that's, that to me, that's fun for me. Some people might, might, might, might hear that and think, Oh God, this is, I, you know, I'd rather,
00:46:02
Speaker
do anything else, but I love that. And the way that you explained it with losing half a pound every week, that's exactly what it's like. It's very disciplined. It's very painstaking. But the fact that I don't look at it that way, that's the key. I think if you look at it as, OK, well, you and you alone can control how you can control how
00:46:29
Speaker
good you become at this. I think that's that to me is the fun of it and I don't look at it as as really as work um but it it is work I mean it but I I don't I never see it that way do you I mean do you see it do you see it as work? No I see it as as study you know as film study you know I think of great football coaches or quarterbacks who are just they have they have some like no matter how much talent or intelligence they have that they're really wedded to
00:46:59
Speaker
hitting play and rewind, hitting play and rewind on the tape. And so I think with just the rigor of study and understanding why something is happening and then seeking inspiration elsewhere, like a longtime Patriots fan grew up New England. And so say what you will about Belichick, but he's willing to learn from the college game to, you know, so he turned his eye to a different
00:47:26
Speaker
a different area of study to get better at the program. Andy Reid is the same way. These guys are open to continual education and study, be it football and for us becoming a better reader and a better writer.
00:47:43
Speaker
it's constantly evolving and I think it's great and it's just turn our eyes to new voices, to other areas that challenge our own reading and challenge how we've historically read. Let's read some other world experience or native writers, black writers. How are they metabolizing their experiences and conveying that on the page and wow,
00:48:11
Speaker
That just makes you a better person overall, speak nothing of being a better writer. Absolutely. To me, I look at writing, and I think I've probably belabored this point, but it's just the constant opportunity to improve.
00:48:28
Speaker
And you're right. I mean, it's to look beyond your own experience and to look beyond your own mental framework. I mean, that's a huge opportunity. And it's something that I like to do. I mean, I'm a big fan of my whole
00:48:43
Speaker
My whole goal is, okay, well, I want to read writers who don't look like me. You know, I don't want to read so straight white men. I want to try and broaden that and read people with different backgrounds and different perspectives. And, and that makes you, yeah, again, it makes you a better, a better writer and you hope a better person. And it's, again, that's why it's very hard for me to give, I can't see myself giving this up because it's the chance to learn the chance to be surprised, the chance to, to, to do something,
00:49:13
Speaker
that you felt was beyond your reach, I don't think many occupations afford those opportunities, but I don't know, I'm not willing to try because I like doing this too much. Even something as boring as writing, I don't know, writing trade magazine articles or avitorials, it's the chance to do something new with that, to not put a different spin on it.
00:49:42
Speaker
That's a cool thing and not many jobs have that. If you're working on an assembly line, you can't really do that. Again, I'm extremely lucky to be able to make a dollar and a dime doing this.
00:49:59
Speaker
know, if I can become a halfway decent person out of it, even better. But you know, the verdict is the verdict is still out on that, I think, but we'll see. Fantastic. Pete, well, this is I'm so great. We're able to do this again on the mics and have one of these conversations that kind of dives into just the everyday minutia of it. And in your experience right now, you know, being three years post your first book and thinking of
00:50:24
Speaker
you know what what to do next and how to learn better how to get better learn better i think this is a really uh just a fertile conversation about uh you know this this sort of phase in the in the season of your writing career so i'm so glad you're able to come on and share that no thank you i hope i hope it was useful i'm i'm always afraid of talking too much and and blathering on but we'll see maybe as as they say maybe we can fix it in post i don't like i don't sound like like too much of a uh
00:50:52
Speaker
of a motor mouth, but no, this is great. Oh, very, very minimal fixing in post and shit. I forgot to ask Pete for his recommendation for the listeners. Ah, my bad. Honestly, I have zero idea of people like that. I asked that of guests.
00:51:15
Speaker
but I like it. Thanks to Pete for coming back for his third trip to the podcast. We're somehow still doing this thing. I think my favorite part of that conversation was the idea of the gradual mastery. Like you're not bad, then good, then great. It's like you're bad, then you're less bad, and then mainly bad, but getting kind of good, and like a glacier.
00:51:39
Speaker
melting on this hot hot earth it's just suddenly it's like oh okay it's been receding and then it's it's starting to gut the earth oh you know hold here here hold on it's bad there's a better metaphor maybe it's like the growth of a mountain like a million years ago that mountain was a little hill but you take a snapshot right now and it's like oh
00:52:00
Speaker
It's taller, maybe only a little bit taller, even after a million years. But growing a centimeter a year isn't going to change the skyline from year one to year two. But you get to my drift that it's that very slow, incremental change. It is geologic. Writing and improving is fucking geologic.
00:52:23
Speaker
Woke up this morning, and this is that thing that I teased in the at the top of the show I woke up this morning. Oh my god damn it Okay, well I woke up this morning with my usual 3 a.m.. Panic staring at the ceiling fan in the in the darkness Wishing I was someone other than myself and starting a writing project in my head I short essay and
00:52:52
Speaker
It even started as a poem, but I've never written a poem in my life. Like, seriously, I don't think I have. Like, maybe when I was in high school, like when you're told to, but I think when you're studying sonnets, you're like, write a sonnet. Anyway, but I'm thinking it'd be more like a short essay, flash essay, called Peloton Instructor, and it'll just be about
00:53:15
Speaker
my long-standing body image issues, which is not exactly something dudes talk about. You know, women be like, cry me a river. But I've long struggled with my body image, face image, teeth image. And I think I have a funny but potentially meaningful essay about body dysmorphia. And while also being mildly to many times more than mildly annoyed by 29-year-old spin teachers giving me life lessons,
00:53:43
Speaker
Thank you. Just tell me which way to turn the dial. I don't need meaning. Anyway, the point of this is maybe this writerly detour, this side writing hustle to your main book.
00:53:57
Speaker
It might be a nice pressure release. Like, I'm overthinking the prefontane biography and I'm sinking in the quicksand, man. And it's not that I'm being precious with words, it's that I'm in a constant state of high-level anxiety over retreading or regurgitating what's already been said. Have I drummed up enough new stuff? I have some new stuff, but is it enough? And capital letters, what is it I really want to say about the guy?
00:54:26
Speaker
I get to make that choice and I struggle with feeling very much unworthy to make that determination. Like, who the hell am I to assert? But you need to be careful. Is this or other SI ideas just a shiny new toy to distract you from what you really need to be doing? Or is it truly a good exercise?
00:54:46
Speaker
When Metallica was in the studio in the late aughts, they went on tour for a few months to get out of the studio. I think they even named that. They might have done like 10 shows or something. It might even be less. And I think it was literally getting out of the studio tour, get out of the studio.
00:55:03
Speaker
Sure, for them, it's far more complicated. It's just up and going the road. Like, you know, they are an ocean liner to move. And I can't imagine the organization it takes to tour on that scale how it fundamentally changes the economy of a city for an entire weekend. That's a point for it. To me, that's a fascinating story worth reporting, is Big Band comes to town and the... Just think about it. Think about it, really. Point is, they needed a break.
00:55:32
Speaker
They get out of the studio and they play to their fans and if anything it was just a creative break but a way to connect with the people that they're trying to serve. Ultimately that's what they're about and any good band, any good artist. So anyway, so maybe an essay or two, short story, fiction, poem, painting.
00:55:51
Speaker
It might be a way to refresh your cup of coffee. Like I always love it when the server is patrolling the diner and I'm like, I can see them moving. Oh my gosh, are they gonna come over to my table and ask me if I want more coffee? And then she comes over, or he...
00:56:06
Speaker
Or they, I don't know. And they're like, do you want more coffee? And I'm already buzzed and I've peed four times. And I'm like, yeah, fuck yeah, please. Thank you, please, more coffee. Stay wild, stay caffeinated, CNFers. And if you can't do interviews, see ya.
00:56:56
Speaker
you