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Episode 416: A Lifelong Search for Voice with Acamea Deadwiler
613 Plays5 months ago
Acamea Deadwiler is an essayist and memoirist and the author of Daddy's Little Stranger.
This is a really rich conversation about how her book was once a collection of essays, but she had to rewrite it as a more cohesive memoir, finding voice, breaking down a piece of writing like game tape, and what playing basketball and getting cut taught her about a career in writing.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 416
00:00:01
Speaker
Episode 416. A lifelong search for voice with a camea deadwiler. I don't know why I did that. All right, CNFers, I'm not one for ads on this show. You know that. I don't actively court them, but I'll occasionally do some cross-promotional purposes. The IRS can't get you for that.
Podcast Promotions and Sponsorship
00:00:21
Speaker
Anyway, this show takes a lot of time, and part of what keeps the lights on at CNF Pod HQ is if you consider hiring me as a collaborator for for your work. A generous editor, as as the generous ones that I hire, ah help you see what you can't see.
00:00:36
Speaker
So if you need some help cracking the code, man, you can email me at creativenonfictionpodcastatgmail.com and we can start a dialogue. Also, new sponsor, what? The word anguish, excruciating or acute pain, suffering or distress. As in, I felt anguish when Lit Hub promoted a slew of great literary podcasts and didn't include the creative nonfiction podcast. Anguish. I Googled fatherless daughter and Google predicted that my next word was going to be syndrome. And I was like, syndrome? What is this? And I hit enter. I was like, wow, my God, syndrome? I have a syndrome?
Guest Introduction: Akamea Deadwiler
00:01:27
Speaker
Why am I so petty? Hey, seeing efforts. It's is great it's a creative nonfiction podcast. A show where I have conversations with primarily writers. I spoke to a documentary filmmaker today for our future show. Anyway, about the craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara. Yes. Today's guest is Akamea Deadwiler, author of the memoir Daddy's Little Stranger. It's published by Riddle Brook Publishing. Like many memoirs, it's a coming of age tale where Akamea wrestles with abandonment and getting out of a dead-end town.
Writing Journey and Personal Development
00:02:00
Speaker
It's a really rich conversation about how her book was once a collection of essays, but then she was told by her publisher, title why don't we rewrite this as a cohesive memoir? So it it took some blowing up. yeah We also talk about finding voice. ah breaking down a piece of writing like game tape, and ah what basketball, playing basketball, and getting cut taught her about a career in writing. Show notes to this episode more at BrendanOmero.com, hey where you can also sign up for my rage against the algorithm newsletter. I up the frequency of the newsletter as I continue my emigration from social media.
00:02:41
Speaker
I got some nice feedback on last week's issue that came out with, in conjunction with the Sam Jeffries pod, episode 415. At last count, is that where we're at? You know, sometimes, sometimes, guys, let's go. I'm typing in brendanamare.com. It would appear, the episode 415, yes, with Sam Jeffries. ah There's going to be some more experimentation going on as I try to promote my forthcoming book without social media. And ah just dropping in like the parting shot, ah this this episode has a TLDL, which is a little excerpt from this. Too Long Didn't Listen was a ah little transcribe transcribed excerpt from this conversation. of And then, like I said, the parting shot will be part of it.
00:03:37
Speaker
little collage, you know, just so some stuff. Anyway, gosh, this is meandering. You never want to meander, and I'm meandering, naturally, trying to lean on the permission assets, like the newsletter and ye olde podcast. And if you dig this pod, this show, consider sharing it or leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, if you do. I'll coach up a piece of your writing of up to 2,000 words. Email the show at Creative Nonfiction Podcast at gmail dot.com. Send the screenshot of your review once it posts and we'll start a dialogue.
00:04:14
Speaker
All right, so let's just get on with it, CNFers. I've wasted enough time. Parting shot about the phantom limb of social media and the age-old question of bringing apples to market.
Influences and Literary Voice
00:04:25
Speaker
But right now, here's my conversation with Akamea Deadwiler.
00:04:40
Speaker
So in that box, what was what were some some titles that were just you're very hard to part with? Not that you can't replace them eventually at some point, but what were some you're like, oh man, I i really wish I could bring this one with me. ah that I actually gave away. yeah um Wow, that is a great question. um I had this book called Women Who Run With the Wolves. Okay, I've heard of that. yeah yeah Yeah, and I didn't get through it because it's it's very small print. It's probably like 500 pages and on top of that it's very small print. So it like
00:05:17
Speaker
though I love the concept, I couldn't really get into it like how I wanted. And so I donated it. I was like, I'm sure someone can, you know, use this one. But after it was gone, I was like, I might want to still read that one day. So so that one and there were a bunch of I'm a big like self help person and um philosophy and things like that. And there were a bunch of just like self help and personal development books. in there as well. I didn't give away a lot of literary books because that's kind of my jam. So if there was something in there that I liked that was like a literary fiction or nonfiction, I probably held on to it. But I gave away a lot of, you know, personal development and self-help books. Nice. And who are some of the the writers that really turned the light on for you?
00:06:03
Speaker
Probably Melissa Phobos is a huge one who really showed me you know that you can write creative nonfiction in a way where it resonates and not even necessarily like I don't know if you've read Melissa Phobos, but she doesn't have like super vivid action or super vivid scenes like you would think it's it's literally her language that has you like, oh my gosh, like this was amazing. So she turned the light on for me. um Hanif Abdul Rakeeb is probably my favorite writer. I have everything he's ever written. um And the same thing with him, although he does.
00:06:44
Speaker
He does create some vivid scenes, but he also does it with his language. you know it's I always say he's he's one of the writers where I'll read his stuff no matter what he's writing about, yeah just because the writing is so beautiful. So I would say those two were instrumental in like showing me like, wow, you can write like this and use language to paint the pictures you want to paint. And it doesn't have to be like this Action action action stuff happening all the time if if you're writing and your language is good enough like people will Love it, you know, it'll resonate with people and and those those are the books that resonate most with me Maggie Nelson was another big one um Yeah, she's definitely more
00:07:24
Speaker
more of an abstract writer than the first two, um and I know she does poetry and things like that, but again, it's her language. So if a writer like uses their language in ways that I haven't experienced before and can make me feel something with their language, that they're probably going to resonate most with me.
Reading Habits and Writing Craft
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I love when you when you left taking Hanif, for example, and you you see his byline, like I love that you just, you know you're in for a great ride and you know you're gonna be in great hands. And I love that of how certain, just a certain writer's name is going to be the signpost to be like, oh, this is,
00:08:02
Speaker
Okay, I'm um really looking forward to settling in and seeing where they take me because the journey they take you on is is ah is always almost always life-changing in some capacity. Right, right, right. You see their name and you're like, I'm reading that. I don't even need to know what it's about or what we're going to be reading about, but that name tells me I'm reading that. For sure. Yeah, because you trust their taste and you just love how they synthesize the world. And you're like, I want to just be, ah you know, riding shotgun along along ah along the road trip with them, because, you know, you're going to you're going to come out of it just fully entertained and possibly changed.
00:08:41
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's going to be something you think about. Like there are lines from his books that i I that just randomly pop into my head. You know, if you tell me to think of one right now, I probably he can't, but just randomly like a line that he wrote will pop into my head. And I'm like, wow, that stayed with me all these months and years later. So for sure. Now I'm someone who, when I'm when i'm reading books, i I do like to mark up a book and draw on the margins and marginally and call attention to certain things so I can come back to it. ah how do How do you read? you know What is the nature by which you metabolize ah the reading you do?
00:09:23
Speaker
You know, I'm someone that treats my books very like precious, like precious things. Like I don't write in them. I can't mark them up. I try to keep the pages and, you know, the covers as straight as possible. No bent corners or anything like that. So I treat my book books very precious. So I don't do any of that unless I am reading like a craft book or a resource book, at at which point I'll highlight pages and I'll take notes because, you know, there is science behind. We remember we retain information better if we you know, write it down or do you know, take notes about it So if it's a craft book, I may highlight and take notes, but if it's literature, i I just can't bring myself to you know Blemish the pages or sully the pages I should say yeah, but um, yeah, but I read um
00:10:13
Speaker
I really take that time. Of course, I'm in a quiet space and I'm reading. I have no distractions. I'm not, you know, watching TV while I'm reading or checking my phone while I'm reading. I dedicate that entire time in space to reading. And if there's something that particularly resonates with me, I'll read it a few times. So if I get through a paragraph and I'm like, wow, that was amazing, or that blew my mind, or something happened in the story, that really just like took me aback. I'll read it again and again because I'm just so fascinated with it. And that's kind of how I ingrain it you know into my brain and into my memory. The things I you know really want to be able to recall is that I'll read it multiple times or I'll take a picture of it and I'll read it later or something like that. Or I'll write something about it, even if it's just for me you know and I don't publish it.
00:10:59
Speaker
So no, I don't mark up the pages, but um I find other the ways to really you know hold on to special special sections of a book or a story. I love hearing that and you know given that you have a sportswriter background too and being around athletes, i I've been loving talking about this as a metaphor just in terms of all athletes, especially and especially great ones, no matter how talented they are, they still have a certain measure of film study and they're and then and they're studying their own work, they're starting the work of others and how
00:11:33
Speaker
ah there's There's a study component no matter how talented ah an athlete is. in ah you know Hearing you talk about, you just you come across a good sentence, you're like, okay, I need to reread this a couple times. guys I want to see what's going on here. so yeah so how is you You've already alluded to to it in that sense, but what is the nature of your reader film study, if you will?
00:11:57
Speaker
I love that. I love that in the athlete reference because that's true. Like even Michael Jordan, you know, would watch tape after games. You you really can't be great in your field if you don't study the craft, you know, of what you're doing. So I'll do sometimes I'll go back and read books that I'm like I'm working on a new book now and I'll go back and read other books that I've read that alluded to topics that I'm covering like I'm now rereading bell hooks all about love. because she talks about some of the things that I'm touching on in my next book. So that's what I'll do. I'll think about, you know, what are the books that I've read that relate to this subject matter or could read that relate
Routine and Writing Evolution
00:12:41
Speaker
to this subject matter. But I'm also careful with that because I don't want it to subconsciously seep into my work where now I'm just regurgitating, you know, what somebody else has already said.
00:12:52
Speaker
So, but um yeah I study you know my favorite writers and my favorite works and anything that pertains to a subject that I would like to write about. If I don't read the entire book, I'll you know read certain chapters or read certain pages that you know give me some insight into my own work, or I'll look the person up online and read about their life and read some of their stuff that I haven't read before. But I definitely study the writers and the works that resonate most with me and that I feel are of benefit to whatever I'm working on.
00:13:25
Speaker
Yeah, and something you you you just brought up a a second ago is this idea of, you know, ah if you read if you read too much of someone, especially when you're synthesizing stuff, it's something I call voice creep, like some of their their style um hijacks your own. and ah But at the same time, that's how you develop your own voice and style is by putting all of these influences into the Vitamix in and turning that on high. And what comes out is this unique smoothie that's achaemia. So you talked about some of your influences, but you know how did you arrive at you know your voice and style? Not that it's static, it's always going to change, but how did you are arrive at something that felt uniquely you?
00:14:11
Speaker
It's funny that you say that because in going back to Hanif, like he was one of the first writers I discovered that really moved me with his language. And so I just instantly started just do you know divulging everything he's ever written and reading all of his work. And I found myself starting to write like him, like subconsciously, not no not that anyone could write like Hanif, but I found myself you know just very much emulating his writing style. And there was one piece where I read it and I was like, wait, this is this is almost plagiarism like because it sounds too much like Hanif, you know, and and as great as he is, you know, I am not Hanif and I don't aspire to be anyone because like you said, it's about finding your voice.
00:14:57
Speaker
But what it did was inform me to the things that resonated with me about his writing style and how could I use that to you know sharpen my own voice or how could that support how I naturally write. And so, you know, I take the things that resonate most with me or that speak most to me, and that is you know his run on sentences. um If you read his work, he does a lot of what an English teacher would call a run on sentence. yeah a lot of and yeah a lot of and sometimes you know and this and this and this and i I love that. So I adopt that sometimes but I limit you know how much I use it. So that's kind of what I do is I pick out okay what really speaks to me about this? Why am I even writing like this? Why am I impersonating you know this this this author's writing? Like what is it about it that I really love and I find those few things
00:15:52
Speaker
that I really, really love and just find a way to put my own spin on it. Like, okay, would I naturally say this is my, is this my natural voice? That's something I think about and it just try to take it, you know, and make it my own. So maybe I don't say in this, in this, in this, but I say, but this, but this, but you know, so it's just, it's just little tweaks to kind of make it your own and make sure that um I'm still using my authentic voice and not just being a human AI replica of this writer that I love. one hundred percent yeah and I've talked to and you know people about style and voice, and sometimes it even though you might, let's say, ah verbally on the page might be similar to someone, but
00:16:38
Speaker
the the lens through which you metabolize what you're what you're paying attention to is also your style. So maybe something that your your antenna is more attuned to is not, even though you might echo or rhyme with Hanif, prose-wise, he's paying he might be paying attention to something entirely different, but you're over here looking at something else. So even though your styles can maybe at times rhyme, it's not, you know because you're paying attention to something different, it is still It is still unique to you because it's ah it is your eyes and not someone else's.
00:17:15
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. That's very true because even from one writer to the next, like what I love about Haneef's writing may be completely different from what you love about it and what the next person love about it loves about it. So that's it that it that's definitely what I try to do is figure out what it is that I love about it and then how can I make this my own because some of it is just style too. Like he does a great job with um braid it braided essays and braided stories where the story will start out about one thing and it's really about something else. It was just kind of a vehicle to get to the thing that the story was really about. So, you know, in enjoying that style, I think that's something that you can think about, like, how can I do this with the story where I'm writing? What is the story under the story that I'm writing? So sometimes it just, you know, it just makes you think about your own work and your own voice and how, like you said, you you're not necessarily. Take biting that writer's style, but just using it to kind of inform your own.
00:18:11
Speaker
When it comes to writing and in reading, there is a an element of of practice, of course, but there's also the practice of having routines about your day to get into the work and a ways to warm up the engine. And so so for you, what is the nature of your daily or every other daily or weekend practice what or how it pertains to how you like to get work done? It's interesting because it's changed in recent years. I used to be like a nighttime creative where my best ideas and my most the most of my juice would come to me at night. yeah So I'd sit up and drink wine and and write until one or two in the morning. And I was always like, oh, I'm a better writer when I drink wine.
00:18:58
Speaker
But recently it's gotten to the point where I started to get like tired you know late at night, so I've switched and become you know an early morning writer because when I'm tired, you know i've I'm not you know my best self. So I'll get up. um I'll normally, you know, I go through my routine. I'll i'll meditate. Sometimes I'll write a little bit in um a notebook. I wouldn't call it journaling because I'm not necessarily a journaler, but maybe I'll write about, you know, some things that I'm grateful for or something like that just to get in.
00:19:30
Speaker
in the right headspace and a clear headspace. I get up, I usually make a smoothie or something, have breakfast, and then um if I really have like some down and dirty writing to get to, I'll go to a coffee shop. I find that there's something about coffee shops and the sounds and the actual coffee that really helps me focus and tap into you know my creative juices. So that's normally my routine if I have some like nitty gritty writing to get to. If not, you know, make some tea and just and sit in my home office for a few hours in the morning. But I'm usually best before like two or three o'clock in the afternoon. And, you know, you your some of your background is in covering covering sports and being a sports writer for yeah Yahoo Sports. And and that's a kind of a old school kind of newspaper driven, driven writing. And that that's in my background also. And there's a When you transition into stuff that is more evocative, more narrative-driven, there is a lot of unlearning that has to go on to try on the new hat. So so for you, what was the the the journey, if you will, to kind of ah and use the habits you built, but also kind of unlearn some of the the the one style of writing to accommodate another?
00:20:48
Speaker
Yeah, it was it's a huge transition because it is very different. And for me, the biggest, the most challenging part was learning to slow down. Like in journalism, it's important that you you have to hit it fast. You have to have this catchy headline and then you can't bury the lead. You have to get to what you're getting to immediately because, you know, the sports readers aren't going to sit there and read a 20 page paper on on the the game you just watched or this, you know, player profile. So I was getting to it quickly, especially if I was doing a lot of interview style work with journalism, that's very quick hitting, you know, you ask the question, here's the answer, ask another question, here's the answer. And what I found early in my career is that, you know, um
00:21:33
Speaker
my mentors and instructors were like, slow down, like stay stay in the room a little longer, maybe describe you know the room a little bit and we'll get where we're going to. But it's like when I was trained to get there quickly, but I was getting there before you know the reader had a chance to even care about where we were going. you know one So that was my big thing. Yeah, so that was my big thing. I just ah had to learn to slow down and and in this field, details are more important and it is important to build a foundation and build the story and build up to whatever the climax is instead of just hitting you with the thing up front to make you want to read this article. Like you said it in narrative, it's like the reader needs to be surprised and delighted. It's like when someone tells you the ending to Game of Thrones or the ending to any story, you're upset like you ruined the story for me. When it's a narrative, you want that journey of getting there. So it is very different. And yeah, that's that's the biggest thing I had to unlearn when switching to more narrative driven work.
00:22:41
Speaker
Yeah, and ah I haven't done this ah in a while, and um I kind of want to bring it back because I think people like to hear, you know, what inspired, you know, you in this case to to become a ah writer, you know, to go from someone who liked words and liked reading to then thinking like, you know what, I i i want to contribute to this in some capacity with my own worldview, my own style and ah and try to and try to become a writer myself. So I just, you know, for for you, just what was the appeal of trying to get into this arena?
From Basketball to Writing Career
00:23:12
Speaker
You know what, honestly, when I was in college, I played basketball and I thought I was going to the WNBA. I was a Houston Comets fan, um you know, Athena Thompson and Sheryl Swoots and Cynthia Cooper. And I decided I'm going to the WNBA. So that was I was like, it doesn't matter what I major in, it doesn't matter what else I'm doing, I'm going to the WNBA.
00:23:35
Speaker
And when that didn't happen, I had to think about what else do I enjoy? What else do I love? And it brought me back to writing, because writing papers for me was never an arduous task in college like it was for you know many of my peers. I would sit up the night before and bang out a paper and get like an A plus. like It was something that came naturally to me and something I also enjoyed. So I was like, well, how can I combine you know my love of basketball with this passion for writing? And it led me to sports writing. And then that's when Yahoo Sports reached out to me about contributing and writing about the Chicago Bulls for them. And then from there, it just grew into you know other topics and aspects because I loved it so much. That was probably my most favorite ah assignment I've ever had was covering the Chicago Bulls. And it was the only thing that gave me the same feeling I had when I was playing basketball.
00:24:27
Speaker
So I was like, I really want to you know invest in this and work on this. And ah once I wrote about sports for a bunch, not that I'll ever get tired of writing about sports, there's always new narratives. But it made me want to you know try something different, like what else can I write about? And that's when I started writing more narrative driven work. I wrote articles for magazines. And even those were kind of essays and narrative driven and storytelling. And I just From there my passion just grew and expanded into other areas and I just loved it. like I just loved writing in general and just took that as my sign to continue on and find more and more things to write about and and creative writing just really
00:25:10
Speaker
touched a different part of you know my passion. So as much as I love sports and sports writing, just the more creative stuff and narrative-driven work really just awakened an even greater passion inside of me. And that's that's why I've stayed in this arena. And what was, or or take us to the moment where the WNBA dream fizzles. yeah What was that moment like? for like You know, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, it was it was a sad, sad day, Brendan, I'll tell you that. yeah i oh So after I graduated, I actually was selected to play in a semi-professional league in Memphis, Tennessee.
00:25:56
Speaker
And by this time, I'm in my late 20s or maybe middle 20s, and I went and I played and it was a call up league. So it was to get caught up to play overseas. I still wasn't, you know, at the WNBA level yet, but I did everything. I wrote letters to general managers and one of them even wrote me back. The coach of the San Antonio, um I think it was the Silver Stars at the time. the the french Yeah, the franchise is debunked. now but he actually wrote me a very nice letter back you know wishing me well and saying he enjoyed it and and loved my passion i still have it somewhere too but so i wrote letters to all the wmba teams just asking for a tryout not asking for a spot on the team but asking for a tryout this was me and my
00:26:36
Speaker
naivety thinking, you know, I could just go try out for this team the same way I tried out for my college team when it it doesn't, you know, work like that. So I went and played for the semi professional league. And at the end of it, um a few girls were called up to play overseas and none of them were me. And so when I drove, I drove my car back home from Memphis. I had family in Memphis, so I stayed with my family. I drove my car the eight hours back home to Northwest Indiana. And during the drive, it just, you know, you have all that time to yourself.
00:27:10
Speaker
on the road in a car, like it's just you and your thoughts and and music. And it just really started to settle in with me like, okay, this may not happen been for me. And so by the time I got home, I was like, okay, it's time for me to start adulting, you know, and and you know, move out of my parents' house. get a job, you know, start doing the things I needed to do to, you know, flourish as an adult. And so I went home, I decided, you know, I'm hanging up my sneakers. And that same day, I like got online, found an apartment, you know, applied for some jobs and within weeks, maybe a month max, I had moved out, you know, and got in an apartment and started my adult life. But it was really that drive home from Memphis after I wasn't selected into play professionally overseas where I was like, OK, As sad as it was, I was like, I can be at peace with this because I did everything I could possibly do. I wrote letters. I hired personal trainers. You know, I drove and stayed in Memphis for the summer. I spent so much money to be the best that I could be at this. And, you know, it's just not in the cards for me. yeah So as sad as it was, I had to accept it. And there was a peace in knowing that I had done everything that I could to achieve the dream.
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, and the the sad part for 99.9% of all athletes, no matter the level, is eventually someone else is telling you it's over. And that's what's so hard. Even the that upper echelon, it's... ah It's eventually even if they've made millions and they just they're they still love the game if they still love the game like eventually someone is just a Team is no longer gonna sign you or or you get cut, you know, like yeah I experienced that too. It's just like someone else Tells you and eventually, you know gives you you know, if you're burned out to it gives you permission to quit also and Yeah, i that's a dead set right there. Even, you know, like you touched on, someone may tell you, you know, this is it just because they don't want to sign you. Like Jamal Crawford just said something about that. He said his final game in Phoenix was also his final game in the and NBA, but he didn't know it. and but The GMs told him it was because nobody signed him after that.
00:29:24
Speaker
So yeah, that is the difficult part that sometimes it is someone else telling you like your dream is over and you're not always in control of you know how long you'll you'll pursue that dream. What were some lessons in your pursuit of basketball dreams that they have taught you valuable lessons for your writing? Just the perseverance, I initially was in film school and I left when the WNBA, the inaugural season of the WNBA because i was I saw a place that, you know, I could go to play basketball. Now this thing I really love to do and went to a university that had a basketball team.
00:30:03
Speaker
But I wasn't recruited because I went to film school, you know, right out of high school and I didn't play in high school. So my idea was to try out and walk onto this team. And I was cut the first time and I was devastated. And I was cut without the coach even. We didn't even get to play basketball. I was cut based on conditioning because I couldn't run a mile and I couldn't lift weights. And I was livid. But it also sparked this like determination inside of me that I hadn't had before. So I sparked this perseverance and you know faced with that rejection. it It was the first time I was probably faced with rejection because it was the first time I'd ever tried to do anything you know and and failed at it. But it kind of took the sting out of it for me because it was the sting I really wanted to do and I didn't make the team.
00:30:49
Speaker
And then I went back over the summer and worked out, got in better shape, all those good things. And I made it the next season. And that kind of showed me that, um you know, if I'm passionate about something and then if I stick with it and work to be the best that I can be at it, because I think that's a huge part too. you know, whenever someone thinks they're just going to roll off the couch and write a New York Times bestselling novel, like I roll my eyes a little bit because I'm like, you're not respecting the work, you know, that it takes and to develop that skill, not even saying, you know, not even involving like hustle culture and and eating eating dirt and all those, you know, sayings. yeah But it's just the work that it takes to develop the craft and the skill and the respect for that process.
00:31:33
Speaker
that um I think a lot of people may not grasp but I learned that when I was cut from the basketball team and I came back the next season and I made it and it really just showed me like if I do the work and if I am pursuing something for the right reasons And I invest myself into it that I can be successful at it. And that's something that stayed with me. So now, you know, like rejections from literary pubs or magazines or things like that, they just kind of roll off my back because for me, that was the ultimate
Perseverance and Rejection in Writing
00:32:02
Speaker
rejection. And so these these other ones, I'm used to it, not in the sense that, you know, I don't care. You know, of course, I want my work to be shared with the world, but it doesn't.
00:32:10
Speaker
bother me like it will never stop me and have me like oh well maybe I can't do this or I won't you know submit to any publication ever again I'm just like oh oh well what other where else can I send this or how can I work on it and that's kind of what it gave me. I'm glad you brought up rejection because that um that it does take a certain amount of skill and someone who's gone through the wringer of athletics can certainly um learn learn a lot about rejection in the subjectivity of it. ah it you know It could be that you know a particular team, i's just if you're a guard and they have
00:32:44
Speaker
five guards on their benches, like odds are you you're trying out for this team. It's like it might not be because you're bad. It's like, we got five guards. And likewise, if you're submitting to a magazine or a newspaper or or a site, you yeah like I've got got this great profile and this person be like, i have well, last month we already ran one or we already have one in the hopper and it's no indictment on your ability it's just timing and circumstance and so that rejection had nothing to do with you it was just kind of a it was actually luck or unlucky in that case
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Or even if you enter a contest and the judge of the contest is partial to you know literature about politics or literature about international stories, you know it's very subjective. is the If the judge of the contest is partial to a particular writing style or particular subject matter, it's very likely that they'll gravitate towards that. And it doesn't mean your piece was bad or it's anything personal about you. It's just, it didn't resonate with the writer because we all are informed by our own experiences and tastes and styles and things like that. And that's something you have to keep in mind is that, you know, these are human beings reviewing your work and they have their own, you know, interest in things that resonate with them and yours just might not be it. And it doesn't mean it's not good. It just wasn't the thing that did it did it for them, you know? Exactly. I look back to to your point of um a few volumes ago, a few years ago now, of Best American Sports Writing. And when Christopher McDougall was the guest editor in A Hero Born to Run, so he's kind of in the running world, it's no surprise some of the pieces that made the cut were running.
00:34:27
Speaker
story right egg and howard Yeah, and a couple years after that, Howard Bryant, the great Howard Bryant was ah was the guest editor, and he's hes he's a big tennis fan, and there were two tennis pieces, I think, in the in the main collection. So it's like, if you if you happen to have written a tennis feature and then, lo and behold, there was someone who was a bit more attuned to tennis, you might have had a better shot of getting into the main collection than someone else who wrote an equally brilliant piece about, I don't know, basketball. And it just didn't quite resonate. So yeah, all these things out of your control.
00:35:02
Speaker
Mm hmm. Exactly. It's very subjective. And I think we have to constantly remind ourselves that like, if if you've put in the work to make this, you know, well written, and I also think, you know, there can be rejection can be a learning experience, maybe there is something you can go back and improve or tweak or do better, um you know, and improve upon. But sometimes it is just a matter of taste for the editor or the judge of the contest or whoever you're submitting to. And it's not always or necessarily an indictment or you or your work.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah, and it it also gets to a point of how we're always seeking, no matter how much we might say otherwise, like we always do want to be recognized, to be seen seek to have some outward validation. And these are the means by which we prove ourselves to our peers. So it makes it all the more ah challenging when you're if you feel like, or feel like you're you're not measuring up because you're always, measuring yourself against these kind of being anthologized here, winning an award here. And when you don't, it feels like, ah, man, it's it can it can get you down if you ah don't ground yourself in the work, I guess. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And that's something I learned, too, as I've gotten further along into my journey and you know pursuing this as my main thing.
00:36:21
Speaker
is that it is important. It's like any other industry is important to be in the spaces where people who can help you along your journey or you know industry folks can read your work and know that it is good or that you are good. You know you can be the greatest writer in the world, but if no one has ever read your work, no one's going to know about you. So we understand how important it is to be published in these journals and these magazines and and when these contests so that we can get eyes on our work and and the opportunities that come with it. So it is tough you know when that's not happening for you because it can help you know advance your your career. But that's why I think the perseverance comes in. And if you're taking these rejections as learning experiences and also not harnessing any you know personal resentment and and understanding that this may not be about me, but maybe my editor is
00:37:14
Speaker
looking for stories about you know social justice right now and not this love story that I submitted you know it can really be you know something as simple as that you really don't know so I think that's where it comes in of just like staying the course of what you're what you set out to do where your passion is leading you and leave all the rest of that that's out of your control to to those forces that that control it. And I think eventually it will happen. That's the law of averages. You're going to get published somewhere eventually and and then you'll get published somewhere after that, but it won't be you know every place you submit to is not going to publish you. And I think just understanding that and just continuing on anyway is beneficial both mentally and you know just for your career.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I used to think that, and it's true to some extent, but not as much as I used to think, that if you were to be anthologizing, some and I use best American sports writing or use best sports writing, because that's always something that I have just a dream of mine to be in there. ah or at at least do the kind of work that typically gets anthologized. And ah I used to think, though, that you were like totally anointed or plucked. But I didn't realize that a lot of writers, are not only do they submit their own work to these things, but
00:38:32
Speaker
they're encouraged to because it's just impossible for anyone to curate the entire sports writing landscape. And not every editor is going to submit work on your behalf. So you have to be your own advocate. And I didn't know that for the longest time. and And so I think it's a good lesson for a lot of writers out there. Just if there are these places that you maybe want to appear, you have to be your your own advocate and your own champion. yeah Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You have to put your work out there. You have to reach out to these people because it is important. Like you said, it you you may just be getting overlooked because you're not personally reaching out and personally submitting your work.
00:39:14
Speaker
this idea that, you know, if I just put it out there, people will find me. I mean, it happens, but it's it's rare, you know, it's like it's striking gold. So you have to be your own advocate and put yourself out there and fight for yourself and fight for your work. yeah Yeah, exactly. it's um yeah I'll never forget, there was one time several several years ago, I think there was this, I used to write a lot about horse racing, and there was this, an equine photographer, he'd been a photographer for decades, and the eclipse awards are kind of like the horse racing Pulitzer Prize, you know, just like it's in turf riding and horse racing journalism, those are the big awards.
00:39:56
Speaker
And he had been this photographer for decades and he had never won anything and he was wondering like why he was like, i did yeah I did good work and you know I never won this award. It would have been nice to win. And he never knew over the course of however long he was doing it that like he had to submit his own work. so he was overlooked because he he thought other people would either notice or submit on his behalf and Because he didn't stick up for his own work. He didn't know to do it All these years he was wondering why he maybe he didn't measure up or wasn't as good as his peers And it was because he didn't know the rules Which is really tragic Yeah
00:40:39
Speaker
It definitely is, and that's but that's something that I felt like for a bulk of my writing career is that I experienced because I wasn't in a writing community. I wasn't in an MFA program. I was just writing, you know and I was submitting my work to like article to magazines and things like that, but I didn't know anything about like fellowships and writing communities and literary journals or anything like that. I was submitting to commercial publications. And so sometimes sometimes it's just not knowing. you know You don't know what you don't know. And so you're trying to you know break into this space, but you're using the wrong channels or you're not using any channels at all because you don't know to use them. So it is that is really sad and just a tragic outcome, but you do definitely, I've learned you have to advocate for yourself for sure. Right.
Father's Abandonment and Memoir Writing
00:41:29
Speaker
Yeah, and at one point, with and now with ah with your memoir, Daddy's a Little Stranger, at what point did you know you were ready to to tackle you know the story of your your coming of age and a lot of the a lot of the the trauma and the neglect of of of ah of growing up the way you did and you know of growing up in Gary, Indiana, primarily? And just at what point did you know you were ready to you know attack this material? I think I knew I was ready when I actually started to feel things about it. like For most of my life, it was just like this thing that happened, but I had no context around it. I didn't really feel anything for it. It was just like, this happened. So there was like there was nothing I could say about it because I didn't think you know there was a story there. it was just like
00:42:22
Speaker
You know, like I went and got my car and drove to 7-Eleven today. It was one of those kind of things where it was like this happened. But I never really you know dug into this so the circumstances and how it it affected me or influenced me. But I started to when um when Kobe Bryant and Gianna were killed in that tragic helicopter crash you know a few years ago. And it spurred the Elle Duncan story on ESPN about him saying he was a girl dad, which spurred the Twitter trend of hashtag girl dad. And it i it really made me think like, wow, like all these fathers just proud to be.
00:43:01
Speaker
to have little girls, to have daughters. And it really kind of started to illuminate for me what I might have missed. And it opened the door for me to start to explore that from a place of honesty with myself. and not saying like, oh, well, this is just how I am. And I turned out great. And this had nothing to do with it. I do believe, you know, I'm proud of the person I became, but it's just irrational and illogical to think that being abandoned by my father didn't influence me at all and didn't influence the person I became.
00:43:33
Speaker
And then from there, you know, I started to look into it a little and I had, um, I went to appointment with my stylist and found out that she had a so ah similar circumstance where she didn't know who her father was. And then when she, she did the ancestry DNA thing. And once she did, she found out that he had died and she was just destroyed. You know, she was heartbroken from not knowing who he is to now knowing who he is. but that you can never know him, you know, you can never meet him. And I just went home and I was thinking like, how come I don't have any of that? Why have I never been compelled to, you know, locate my father alone or learn more about him? And I realized I was just kind of
00:44:11
Speaker
You know, we, our minds protect us from ourselves. And I think I just put that in the place that it needed to be for me to flourish as an adult and become this person that I am proud of. But those few things with that that cornucopia of events just kind of made me start thinking and looking at my what I'd endured honestly and being honest with myself about how it felt, even if I'm fine now, how it felt to me as that little girl, you know, sitting in the window waiting for her father to come get her. and From there, I was like, okay, there is a story here and i and it needs to be explored because when I started to look at it, I Googled fatherless daughter and Google predicted that my next word was going to be syndrome. and I was like, syndrome? What is this? I hit enter. I was like, wow, my God, syndrome? I have a syndrome?
00:45:02
Speaker
But, and all of it, and pretty much, I would say 80% of it revolved around female sexuality. Like, oh, if a girl is promiscuous, a girl is usually promiscuous if she grew up without a father, or um she has trouble trusting men, you know, she's heterosexual. It all revolved around sexuality and relationships with men. And I was like, wait a minute. There's much more to it than this because you know this hasn't been my experience or the experience of some other women I know who've grown out without fathers. And I was just like, this should be explored from a ah more complete perspective that views you know these daughters who've endured this as full people. And let's talk about the other ways it may may have affected us, starting with myself, you know because I can't ask of others to do this if I'm not willing to do it with myself.
00:45:53
Speaker
So it was just that combination of events and kind of the rabbit hole I went down that showed me like, OK, I'm ready to look at this topic. I'm ready to face, you know, my the child version of myself and all those things she endured and experienced and really dig into it and explore not only how it affected me, but how it felt, you know, along the way. Yeah, and given that you the the research you did and you saw that it primarily came through this kind of a sexualized lens of miss yeah missing father syndrome, um but how free for you and for for people who haven't ah read the book yet or who are looking to read it, you know just in what ways did it did it affect you uniquely that um
00:46:40
Speaker
yeah that that spoke to the individual nature of of this particular you know absence in your life. One of the ways was just like this this radical independence, just this hesitancy to ask for help or accept help when it was offered. And I don't know, I think it's just because I never, I think just dealing with it, I never really saw myself as someone that people would want to show up for and that's that's we all have these you know little people inside of us you know this this little girl is inside me and and though i've you know like i said i'm proud of my life and i've accomplished things
00:47:24
Speaker
that little girl inside of me still makes decisions for me without me knowing sometimes. And I realized that was the one one and one of the major ways, just um the inability to ask for and um discomfort with accepting help when it was offered. um Preemptively, like ending relationships or associations, not even speaking romantically, but just like ending connections or relationships with people because I had this idea that they were going to end anyway, you know, so I just preemptively kind of left them before they could leave me kind of thing. And I never associated these things to, you know, my father, but
00:48:04
Speaker
it's It's inevitable. it's It's an inevitable connection that can't really be severed. I think it all stemmed from those first failed dates with my father when he was supposed to show up and he didn't or he promised to do something and he didn't. So I learned that it affected me uniquely in those ways and just just being uncomfortable uncomfortable with vulnerability and seeing it as a weakness. There are a lot of ways, but those are probably the main ways and the things that I learned about myself in writing the book. It started as a collection of essays. I didn't even think there was a connective thread there to write a memoir, but um when I submitted them to my publisher,
00:48:45
Speaker
the publisher was like, I think you should rewrite this rewrite this as a memoir. There are connective threads and there are connective things if you're willing to sit with it, because that was me writing it, but still not really feeling it like, OK, here's an essay about this event. Here's an essay about when this happened. But putting it all together really require, you know, deep insight into how I felt about things and deep insight into my life up until this point. And it was from there that I developed it into a memoir and I really had these you know breakthroughs where I could see and actually learn about myself in the process of writing it.
00:49:20
Speaker
Yeah, take us to you know that that process by which you're doing a significant rewrite to try to make it as cohesive as possible. It's ah it's a heavy left and a heavy heavy burden to do that, but what was that ah experience like to have to reframe it in such a way? Oh my God, I was so upset. like I almost like terminated. I almost wanted to terminate the contract because I was like, what? He wanted me to do what? like Rewrite the entire book?
00:49:53
Speaker
So it felt daunting. It felt very much daunting, you know, in the beginning when someone says, hey, rewrite this as a completely different style of book. But once I actually got into it, I was like, OK, the publisher was right. Like there are connective threads here. Once I sat down and I looked at each each individual essay, I was like, OK, there are recurring themes here. And once I looked at it that way, I was able to group you know the themes and then arrange them and in a natural order of progression, or you know not even always linear, but in order of you know resonating themes or connecting themes and leading to this maybe larger theme at the end.
00:50:35
Speaker
So it started out where I resisted, and I was like, do I want to do this? This book is good as a collection of essays and what? I can't do this. It really felt daunting. But once I actually set within and opened my mind to putting in that work and doing it, I definitely believe the book is better for it, for sure. It's definitely better as a cohesive story instead of a collection of essays. But yeah, make no mistake, if you spend all this time writing 200 something pages with the work. And then someone's like, oh, okay, this is great. You know, rewrite it. You know, you're like, what? So yeah, I just had to mentally, well, first I had to look and, you know, get on board with it. And I was like, okay, okay, they're right. Like, there are connected themes here. And maybe I could arrange it as a memoir. Then it became more exciting. Like, ooh, how can I do this? And this fits here. And this goes here. And ooh, I can make this about this. and
00:51:34
Speaker
end it this way, then it became in a more of an exciting challenge once I actually saw what the publisher was seeing. Given that that rewrite is it's very daunting at the outset, very overwhelming to even think about, ah what was what was your first step to start to get your head around it so you could then sequentially start to pick at it? My first step was to print out what I had submitted and honestly what I signed the contract for. I was like, but this is the book you accepted. So what do you mean? like Let's rewrite it. So my first step was to print it out. And I read through each essay and I wrote down whatever the theme of the essay was. So if this one was about, you know, abandonment or
00:52:24
Speaker
or not feeling loved, or a strenuous relationship with my mother. Whatever the theme was, I wrote it down. or And for I did that for each essay. And then I saw where the themes overlapped. So ah a theme in this one was feeling awkward at school. And then in this and say I also talked about something that happened at school. I would put those on the same side you know of the story. So I did it that way. I printed out the entire thing. I read through each essay, wrote down common themes in each in each one, and started to put them together that way, the ones that had the you know connecting themes or that were along the same lines and cover the same topics as as each other.
00:53:08
Speaker
Yeah, there's a moment in the book too that I just ah ah a little scene that i that I found particularly touching and very illustrative of ah just the the circumstances under which and the weight and desperation that I that i
Leaving Toxic Environments
00:53:23
Speaker
sensed. from you and this is when I think you were working at the McDonald's and you had your boyfriend Marcus um you know encouraged your your brother Danny kind of egged him on to get in this fight and he was like really proud because your brother ended up you know beating the crap out of somebody. And Marcus was really proud of him and like you're right here, Marcus is a year older than me, set to graduate when the robbery happened and he had kind of orchestrated a McDonald's robbery.
00:53:52
Speaker
um and you're like, the the thug life we might have together flashed before my eyes and I wanted no part of it. I wanted more, starting with getting out of this dreadful town someday, not digging my heels deeper into it. And it was that particular clause at the very end that that I found really striking is that, it's just like, he there's that want to it to to get out in the you and you saw the saw in a certain person that if you hitched your wagon to that your heels would be dug in and you might never get out. who yeah Yeah, it was ah an aha moment definitely for me because I was just like, what? You're proud of my brother for getting into a fight and it just showed me you know like this is how we measure
00:54:40
Speaker
you know This is how we measure people in this neighborhood or in these surroundings. Yeah, measure masculinity you know in this environment and in these surroundings. and And it's not even limited you know to that neighborhood or that environment. I know in general, that's toxic masculinity. That's the definition of it. How how tough are you you know did you? Can you take a punch? Can you punch? So it was those kinds of things. And I i i just i definitely wanted more. And as much as I loved Marcus, I was just like, I can't do this life. you know I'd done it for what felt like so long already, just the heartbreak and and all the bad things or the things that felt bad and the negative experiences. And I was like, do I want to just stay here and continue creating these negative experiences or wallowing in these negative experiences or accepting it as my normal?
00:55:31
Speaker
And I didn't want that. So it was it's funny how it can be a single event that will just illuminate your circumstance or illuminate a relationship or you know, illuminate a path and then you realize you don't want that path. So yeah, that was it for me when I was just like, okay, no, I can't I can't do this relationship. I can't and do this environment. If I want to get to where I'm trying to go. In writing memoir often you learn a lot about yourself and I wonder what did you learn about yourself just in the formulation of what was originally the essay collection and then what ultimately became the the memoir itself.
00:56:12
Speaker
I have a tendency to disconnect even when writing a story. and I think that you know served me in my journalism and sports background. It kind of goes back to that where initially I kind of wrote it in that vein, you know an essay is a lot more quick hitting than a memoir or anything with a narrative arc. Because you complete the story in the essay and then you're done, you move on to something else. yeah so i noticed you know So I noticed that that was my tendency as a writer
00:56:49
Speaker
And just, you know, as a human was to disconnect from things and get them over with as quickly as possible, whether that's telling a story or, you know, writing about the story or touching on things, whether they were comfortable or uncomfortable. I had this tendency to just want to be done with it as quickly as possible and not sit with it. And so turning that essay collection into a memoir forced me to start to sit with the story and sit with my own feelings, sit with my reflections. And it made me, um I believe I'm a much better writer for it because when you do that, you start to notice things you didn't notice before. And you start to feel things you didn't feel before because you're sitting with the story longer as opposed to like banging out an essay and being like, okay, I'm done. We're moving on to something else. It's like, no, I'm sitting with this as a full story for 200
00:57:39
Speaker
50 pages. And so things are coming up that I didn't even consider before because I'm giving myself that time to process and reflect and think and feel. And so all these things are coming up that I truly believe made it a better story overall and made me a better writer because now I notice those things in in all of my writing. Yeah, it breaks you out of compartmentalizing, right? Exactly. Exactly. And that's what it that's what it did for me, which can only make you a better writer because you're a more, you know, a more complete writer and you're noticing the things in the room that other people may not notice and and the things that make your story really resonate with readers.
00:58:21
Speaker
you know In terms of you know looking in the mirror of our own writing, you know we can note we often notice you know what where you know our blemishes and and this, that, and the other. We also notice what's what's good about what we do. um But I imagine for you, what are what what are some things that when you look at your writing objectively, you're like, these are things I i i know I need to work on. These are the blemishes that I want to clear up. Hmm, that is a great question. i think I think what I have to work on most is is voice. And I've talked about this with mentors and instructors and things like that. and's And we touched on it early on. It's about finding my voice. yeah
00:59:06
Speaker
Because it's like when I pick up a book Haneef wrote, well, you know, I could read something Haneef wrote. And without you even telling me that he wrote it, I would know that he wrote it, you know, because he has such he has such a he has such a distinctive, consistent voice and writing style that, you know, he wrote something without someone even telling you he wrote it. And so I've been really working towards that because um I found that I had a tendency to just I don't know if I knew what my voice was. So when I sat down to write a story, it's like, where am I pulling from? How am I going to write
Developing a Distinctive Voice
00:59:43
Speaker
this? So the past few years of my work have really centered on figuring out what my voice is, because I want you to be able to pick up something and say, oh, okay, I wrote this. You know, I want to be that distinctive in my voice and my storytelling. And I would say that's probably, um you know, the biggest area that I've had to work on along the way is really developing a a consistent voice.
01:00:06
Speaker
Yeah, I love the sound of that. And it's and it's every it's ever evolving too. It never stops. You know, you're always going to be hopefully evolving and doing this, you know, just and until and you until the end. it's Right, hopefully no coach decides they're not going to sign me anymore. And I can decide when I'm going to retire. Oh, that's great. Well, it gave me a ah this is great great conversation. And I always love bringing them down for a landing by asking the guests for a recommendation that's exciting you that you want to share with the listeners out there. So I would just extend that to you. What might you recommend for the listeners?
01:00:44
Speaker
Mm hmm. There is a Netflix show called One Day that I feel is brilliant storytelling. You know, every now and then you get one of those Netflix pumps out shows is such a such a ridiculous clip. You may not always get that. But every now and then there's a really good one. And one day as a Netflix show that I really loved, it has a huge twist and it starts out where I thought like, oh, this is a cute little rom com. And then it was absolutely devastating. And it really, aside from just enjoying it from an entertainment standpoint, it really made me think about storytelling and, you know, better ways to do reveals because it was it was really impactful. So I suggest watching it on Netflix. It's called One Day.
01:01:28
Speaker
Nice. and And isn't that cool too, like, you know, watching that show be or or movies or listening to podcasts and you listen or watch as a writer and you're like, how can I do that in my medium? Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Because you feel this and you're like, how can I make people feel that, you know, the way that that storyline was introduced or that that thing? It's like, how can I do that in my writing? So for sure. Watching it as a creative and as a writer, you think of things a little differently. Fantastic. Well, ah well it came to you. This was wonderful.
Episode Reflection and Conclusion
01:02:00
Speaker
I'm so glad we got to have this conversation. And ah yeah, just thanks for coming on the show and thanks for the work. Well, thank you for having me. This has been a pleasure.
01:02:14
Speaker
Well, that was cool. Thanks to Akamea for coming on the show. Thanks to UCNF for listening and making the show a hoot for me to make. Now, of late, since I've been logged out of my two social media accounts, several weeks now, still feels weird. Like, what's a guy to do with his thoughts? What of posting a pithy zinger? My fingers will hover over the keyboard from time to time to type in threads or Instagram, and I almost unilaterally got zero out of such visits to those platforms.
01:02:48
Speaker
The prevailing feeling was one of either annoyance or jealousy and the stench of desperation you smell off of every other writer trying his or her best to peel off any attention they can. For faux platform, that's all it is, is an it's an illusion, man. It really is.
01:03:11
Speaker
It doesn't work. ah Some might argue it does. I'm firmly in the camp that it works for those who are famous and posting anywhere and hoping for traction is like putting a token in a slot machine and expecting triple cherries. Maybe something gets... get some traction, it's not yeah but that's the dopamine effect. that's why they That's how they get you, man. That's why we rage. Admittedly, I um became very self-conscious about my lack of social media presence just the other day when my um my big book editor needed ah podcast metrics and social media followers as he was going into a business meeting with the brass at HarperCollins. And I was like, good boy.
01:03:54
Speaker
um This is bad timing from the podcast metric point of view because for roughly one to two years the pod was getting a nice healthy dosage of nine to ten thousand downloads per month. Downloads, not subscribers, I don't know what the subscriber count is. Nebulous, that's why I don't know. But the past one to two months that number has cratered to like four thousand downloads a month. Like a total, like a more than fifty percent drop in audience. And this is a number I had to share with my editor. Great timing. I had no explanation as to why the audience metrics have have tanked like that. I just don't know. It has nothing to do with my lack of social media because it was doing just fine when I really wasn't when when i wasn't engaging before. It just does its thing.
01:04:43
Speaker
Maybe people have outgrown it or they have grown annoyed, which is totally understandable. and they yeah They have just otherwise moved on. Or maybe they they play the show and don't download it. I do that with some podcasts too. I'm trying to get the show more exposure by pitching myself as a podcast guest and dipping my toe back into essay writing, which I haven't done for a long time. Long time. I'm dabbling with writing personal essays as screenplays to shake up the form a bit. So if I'm able to get some things published, appear on other podcasts, I can keep the show relevant and visible. you know I pitched interview excerpts to long reads and electric lit. Lit Hub has ignored me for years, so I'm giving up on them.
01:05:29
Speaker
and This is the nature of you can't just grow your apples and hope people will stop by your orchard You have to bring them to market to where the people are It doesn't matter how good your apples are if the people can't access them easily In fact, there might be an orchardist with inferior apples who is all over the markets But it's easy to access and so people settle for inferior apples How many people are growing great apples that are going uneaten? Now if growing apples for fun is your jam, then don't fret, but I suspect many of you want to share your apples and maybe even make money from your wide variety of apples.
01:06:11
Speaker
So we truck them to the markets and ask for admittance because we have value to offer to the markets. We don't want a monocrop of apples at the market. No, we do not. So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do, interview. See ya.
01:06:42
Speaker
you