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Episode 231: Pete Croatto on Listening, Showing His Work, 'From Hang Time to Prime Time,' and Adding that Ding
261 Plays4 years ago
So thrilled to have Pete Croatto (@petecroatto) back on the podcast after a 202-episode drought. His new book, From Hang Time to Prime Time (Atria Books), is out now.
In more than 300 interviews, Pete tells the story of how NBA became the behemoth it is today. But it all started in the late 1970s to the late 1980s.
You can now become a CNFin' Member by hitting up patreon.com/cnfpod and keep the conversation going on social media, @CNFPod.
Show notes, get your show notes! at brendanomeara.com.
Promotional support for this episode is brought to you by The Writers' Co-op Podcast.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Writer's Co-op
00:00:01
Speaker
Hey, if you enjoy this podcast, you may also enjoy The Writer's Co-op, hosted by Wudan Yan and Jenny Gridders. The Writer's Co-op focuses on the business side of running a freelance writing career and concurrently building a life you want.
Strategies from Freelance Writers
00:00:18
Speaker
Wudan and Jenny are candid about talking about freelance pay, contracts, saying no to work, and more. This season, they're interviewing freelance writers on how they make it work.
00:00:30
Speaker
Guests so far have included Maya Kozov, Aurora Almondroll, Daniella Zaltzman, and Matt Vellano. Hey, listen wherever you podcast, man. You dig? Good.
Introduction to CNF Podcast
00:00:46
Speaker
I always want to try and add that ding to any, to anything that I'm writing, whether it's an advertorial or a profile or this book, I want to, I want to try and add that little, that little ding that I hope someone appreciates.
00:01:05
Speaker
What is up, CNFers? It's Brendan O'Meara, hey, and this is CNF, the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. Very happy to bring back to the show Mr.
Pete Croato: Journalism and NBA History
00:01:25
Speaker
Pete Croato, at Pete Croato on Twitter. Pete was on the show back, I believe, on episode 29.
00:01:34
Speaker
Back when I was getting this CNF and train out of the depot in late 2016 or thereabouts, he's a freelancer. He's a writer, journalist. And his first book is out right now from hang time to prime time, business entertainment in the birth of the modern NBA, modern day NBA. Sorry. It is published by atria books.
00:02:00
Speaker
Pete's one of those guys who energizes you, makes you feel like you can do the thing. You know what I'm saying? He's incredibly generous in the writing and freelance community. He's a great Twitter follow. He's always offering insights, contacts. He's leveling you up. It's something I love about him.
00:02:21
Speaker
You'll notice this episode is a little longer than most and that's because Pete came to play ball and I wouldn't leave it that long if I didn't think it deserved to be. You have that to look forward to in a moment, of course. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. It's great. It's great, man. If you dig the show, I hope you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Engaging with the Podcast
00:02:41
Speaker
And I hope you'll keep the conversation going on social media at CNF pod. Of course, you know that right? Maybe don't maybe you don't know you do. If you have something nice to say about the podcast, you can always consider leaving a review on Apple those always help with the show's packaging and social capital if you will.
00:02:59
Speaker
Or you could send the show an email, creativenonfictionpodcastatgmail.com. You need quite a lot of dexterity in those fingertips to type out that email address. But if you do, pop off that little written review and I'll be sure to give you props, read it on the air. I can use it for promo material too. Whatever you want, whatever you can spare. I don't want to take up too much time here at the top of the show.
00:03:28
Speaker
But some of you might have noticed that the AudioMag published this week, earlier this week. I'm really proud of it. Proud of the work that the five writers did in their rigor as they went through the whole production process with me. And, you know, if you dig it, really share that around because
00:03:48
Speaker
It's the only audio mag that'll be free for all. Subsequent issues will only be available to Patreon members. My four tiers, tiers one through four, all get exclusive access to
Patreon Exclusives and Early Access
00:03:59
Speaker
it. So if you like what you hear and you want more and you want to take part in that, you'll want to support this show and the magazine by heading over to patreon.com slash cnfpod and become a CNFN member. Okay.
Insights on Story Pitching
00:04:14
Speaker
So Pete in this episode number 231 crazy talks a lot about pitching queries where the juice is and how it's very much like you know being a pocket passer in football going through your progressions. It's such a great analogy, great metaphor.
00:04:32
Speaker
He talks about showing the work in his new book and what he learned about the skill of interviewing by interviewing over 300 people for this book. I mean he's someone who's been freelancing now for 15 years and of course he has
00:04:48
Speaker
You don't do it for this long if you're not good at reporting, good at interviewing. But when you do a concentrated amount, as you did a report on this book for 11 months, and you interviewed that many people, you're gonna get better at it. And we talk a little bit about that too. And so many other things, of course. So stay tuned, of course, for my, am I saying, of course, too much?
00:05:09
Speaker
Of course. Uh, stay tuned for my parting shot at the end of the show. But in the meantime, here's my conversation with Pete Croato.
Networking in Freelance Writing
00:05:32
Speaker
What's so cool about, about being, about being in this industry, however, however you wanted to find it.
00:05:40
Speaker
is that so many people are willing to help. So many people are willing to offer advice or point you in the right direction. I mean, this is, you know, we're all, I think we're all kind of mercenaries in a way, you know, especially if you're a freelance writer or you're a freelance writer or you work at radio or whatever. I mean, we're all kind of working, we're all solo artists. But what's amazing is
00:06:09
Speaker
if you do this long enough and you listen to enough people, you read enough people, you start to make connections, you start to develop allies, you build an army.
Diverse Writing Career Paths
00:06:21
Speaker
And it's one of the best things about being in this business for whatever trials and tribulations there are, is that I've met some amazing people. I've read some amazing things that if I were working in an office or
00:06:38
Speaker
or had a traditional, in this era, there really is no traditional job anymore, no traditional work, nine to five job. I would be deprived of so much education and just so many great friendships and just people who have made my life exponentially more interesting. So yeah, I think we're both on the same page with that.
00:07:07
Speaker
Absolutely. And it, what's, what's really been enlightening over the last few years or so, and especially since, you know, I've been doing this podcast was just seeing, is seeing the many different paths you can chart these days. You know, everyone has just a different way, different anchor gigs, this, that, and the other, maybe a little bit of a day job or this and just piecing together a whole and there's no one career track anymore. It's, it's a very bifurcated and that's what's really great about it.
00:07:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's a great word. Bifurcated. I should use that. That's a great word. Bifurcated. It's funny, I was talking to, I did a Zoom author visit. I guess that's the right term for it now. Last night at Odyssey bookstore in Ithaca, which was wonderful. And there was somebody, a young man who was in the crowd who asked me
Adapting to Career Circumstances
00:08:00
Speaker
and Russ Bengtson, who was gracious enough to host, interview me for this event,
00:08:07
Speaker
And he was asking about career bias and what to do. And the first thing I said to him was, I don't really feel comfortable prescribing a uniform career path.
00:08:20
Speaker
to find success in this industry because you're right. Everyone does things differently. Everyone has different demands on their time. Everyone has different responsibilities. So for me to say, well, you should work at a newspaper. And then when you work at a newspaper, you know, it sounds, you know, it's, it sounds so, it sounds so silly to just like bring up one way to do something that, and that's the wonderful thing about being, you know, whether it's being a podcaster or a writer or,
00:08:48
Speaker
or even doing videos, you can chart your own course. There are so many ways to do this, and there's no one right way to do this. There is none. I mean, it always bothers me, and I think what was, oh yeah, the 30 under 30 list came out a couple days ago. I don't know what publication did this. I feel like a TV guide is gonna do one, or I don't know,
00:09:15
Speaker
a Granger is going to have a 30 under 30 list in like two years. That's beside the point. But anyway, I don't like lists like that because it plants a seed in too many people's minds that if you don't make it, however you define make it by the time you're 30 or 28 or 25, it's over.
00:09:35
Speaker
And to me that is just a dangerous way of thinking. You know, I'm 43 and this is my first book. So yeah, so to me there is no expiration date on having this kind of career. And anyone who tells you, oh, if you don't publish your first book by the time you're 30 or you don't get in the New York Times by the time you're 25 or whatever,
00:10:03
Speaker
arbitrary land guideline they mentioned. That's someone you don't want to be associated with because there is no timeline for this. There isn't. Absolutely.
Criticism of Youth Success Lists
00:10:14
Speaker
I've said in conversations that those lists, they might prop up 30, but they probably kill the hopes of 30,000.
00:10:24
Speaker
because of just this perverse attachment we have to precocity. And I think they even brought it up when Debbie Millman was on the show way back about a couple of years ago at this point. And I asked her about that question and basically framed it just like that. And she was just like, well, think on the other side too, because she's very much a late bloomer.
00:10:48
Speaker
And so, but she's like, imagine the pressure of being one of those people on that list and then having to live up to that too. I was like, yeah, I wouldn't want that either. But at the same time, I remember when this list came out, I was just all kinds of bitter and resentful. And not that I deserve to be on the list, but it's just like, it's just one of those deals where like, how did they get anointed? And who's making those choices? And it just seems so unfair.
00:11:14
Speaker
Well, that's the thing. You don't know who's making those choices. You just don't know. I mean, you don't know if it's one person who's working from their email list. I mean, you don't know. And that's the thing. I can name at least five or six really talented writers who are under the age of 30 or who are maybe just past the age of 30. And I haven't seen their names pop up.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean these lists, these top 10 young riders are the 30 under 30, the 40 under 40, they need to be taken with a dump truck full assault.
00:11:56
Speaker
It's great. It's great to celebrate that those people's accomplishes and as you know, that's that's great. You know, I'm all for anyone succeeding in this as a writer. I mean, I'm all for it that I think a rising tide lifts all boats. But to but yeah, this this this those lists those 30 under 30, 40 under 40. They do feed this this fallacy that that youth rules everything and
00:12:25
Speaker
I don't I don't think it does and I'm proof that it doesn't so Just you know, yeah, if you're if you're 31 or 35
00:12:34
Speaker
don't worry about it. You're going to be fine. You're going to be just fine.
Enjoying Writing and Community
00:12:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's so great to hear you say that. I know I'm a late bloomer. I still feel like I haven't really even hit a certain degree of bloom. But it is that thing you just kind of keep cracking at it. And if you love it and you have the rigor and you do the work and you are a generous person in the citizenry of writers and freelancers,
00:13:00
Speaker
Things will turn around for you, but you have to be a member of the community if you want that community to even give a little bit of it back to you. Oh, yeah, absolutely. The freelance writing community, and I don't know what it's like for other freelancers, but in the freelance writing community, it is amazing how much room is at the table.
00:13:24
Speaker
I have never been shoot away for asking a question or if I needed an editor's contact or a helping hand. No one ever said I'm too busy or I don't know who you are, scram.
00:13:43
Speaker
But you have to return that in kind. You can't just take, take, take. You have to give. And you're right. If you give and receive, it's great. And I think any writer that has made it, and again, Defy made it however you'd like to, they have had more help than they can remember. And the thing too that you mentioned before about grinding and doing the work,
00:14:11
Speaker
The accolades don't really mean, the accolades mean little if you're not enjoying this, if you're not having fun with it. Like, I don't know. I mean, the one thing that comes across in listening to you is you seem to genuinely have fun with these interviews. You're engaged, you're curious.
00:14:29
Speaker
you wanna learn more. And to me, that's the juice. That is what gets me up in the morning, is to learn something new, to tell a story that there had been told before, to shine a light on something that maybe had gone undiscovered for too long. So yeah, you have to be a good citizen, but you also have to enjoy the work. And if you don't enjoy the work, if it feels like work,
00:14:59
Speaker
then I don't think this is the kind of job for you. I love that you brought up fun. So where is the fun for you? Where's the juice for you in the everyday work? That's a good question. The juice is in coming up with an idea and convincing an editor
00:15:26
Speaker
that the idea is worth pursuing, convincing a person selling a person on that idea. When I get an idea for a story, it's almost a giddy feeling.
00:15:42
Speaker
It's a feeling that you have a secret that no one else knows about. But you can't wait. So you want to just tell as many people as you can about it. It's like gossip. It's this big PC juice of gossip and you want to share it and get it in the right hand so it reaches the most number of people. Or get it to the person who appreciates it the most.
00:16:08
Speaker
when I have an idea for a story, it doesn't leave my head. And it's almost like getting a chance to make a daydream come to life. I know that sounds very silly and very, you know, maybe a little, you know, new agey, but there is such a great joy in that. And
00:16:34
Speaker
To me, once, I don't know, when you do that once, you want to keep going back to it. It's addictive. It really is. And so I think that's the juice, is waking up each morning. I mean, working on projects that I'm curious about or interested in. And even if I'm not, just writing is just playing in the sandbox for me. It's just so much fun.
00:16:58
Speaker
But the real the real juice, the real joy is coming up with the idea and being like, God damn, I have to tell this. I have to I have to I have to really get this, get this built, build this from the ground up and do something with it. That's that's the juice.
00:17:16
Speaker
And oftentimes when we're looking on social media or something and we see someone with a prominently placed story or we look in the back of the last issue of Best American Sports Writing and there's Pete Croato with a notable selection.
00:17:31
Speaker
And we see that as, these are the home runs. And oftentimes all we're seeing are home runs, but what we don't see is the batting average that's getting to those home runs. In your experience, especially maybe early, and then of course, I suspect it's later, it's higher now because you're more experienced. But what would you identify as like a good batting average? So people know when they're pitching,
00:18:00
Speaker
Oh, if I'm going one for 10, I'm actually doing okay. Yeah.
Indicators of Freelancing Success
00:18:05
Speaker
You know, I don't even know if a batting average is a right way to go about it. Because what, if you're three out of 10, you're a Hall of Famer. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm not sure. Well, I mean, if you're a Hall of Famer, I've used this joke before, then I don't know how obeys is in there, but that's another story. I think, how do when you're rolling, hmm.
00:18:29
Speaker
You know, you know, when you're rolling, when you don't have to feverishly pitch, like when pitching isn't the first thing on your to-do list, you know, you're doing well. You know that you're hitting a groove. You know, you're doing well when you can send an email to an editor with just a sentence or two instead of, instead of a proper three, two to three paragraph, you know, honey, honey drip pitch. Um, you know, you're doing well.
00:18:59
Speaker
When you work with editors that care about the work as much as you do and who more importantly pay you on time, that's crucial. I'm a big fan of looking for signs. To me, those are a few good signs to look out for. But the batting average thing, I don't know.
00:19:24
Speaker
I kind of feel like there are months where I'm Mike Trout and there are months where I'm, you know, if I'm Todd Frazier, I'm lucky. So, you know, not no disrespect for Todd Frazier, who grew up in my neck of the woods in central Jersey. But yeah, it's the batting average thing is helpful. But I don't know if that clearly
00:19:52
Speaker
explains what you have to look out for. And I think other people are going to have different signs like if you talk to Jen Miller, or AC Shelton, I'm sure they'll have they have different benchmarks for their success in a month or a week. So yeah, I mean, mine, mine are just what I mentioned, just the fact that
00:20:13
Speaker
There's a flow to the day things seem a little bit easier and there isn't the. There isn't the desperation of pitching, but I will say this pitching can be fun like it can be fun to just sort of. You know, go out and and crush one out of the park. I mean, there is a lot of fun in that, but it can also be a little bit.
00:20:31
Speaker
a little bit desperate and a little bit of a feral feeling thing where it's like, oh boy, like I better, I better, I better, I better summon up something here. Cause it's getting, it's getting ugly, but the day and also more importantly, when it doesn't, when it, when it doesn't feel like work, when the date, when it just feels like you're, you're, when it feels like you're in that happy place and you're, you're, you're just happy, you're, you're just grateful for, for being where you are. I mean, that, that, that's the thing you shouldn't lose. You should always feel, you should always feel a little grateful
00:21:00
Speaker
and a little happy to be where you are because I think there are a lot of people who would love to even try this and they don't for a variety of reasons. So yeah, it's a whole swirl of things, which I probably didn't catalog in a very organized way, but I do think that it's more of a
00:21:24
Speaker
It's more of a feeling than it is, than it is just like just straight statistics.
00:21:30
Speaker
Right. Yeah, it's definitely more fluid as you get a bit more ground underneath you. I think knowing, as people who know baseball, it's like you know, just through sheer experience in numbers, that three out of 10, a 70% failure is as good as it gets. And so it makes you as a hitter be like, okay, I know when I'm
00:21:55
Speaker
going 0 for 7, if I go 3 for my next 3, I'm doing okay. And so I think it's just identifying, at least because in the freelancing world, in the pitchy world, without that benchmark, like what is failure and what is success? How many should I be landing? How many rejections is normal?
00:22:15
Speaker
you get a sense of, okay, if someone is landing early on, they're just sending out dozens of pitches and maybe landing one or two is like, is that good or am I bad? Hearing you just work through that, I think it's very helpful. Then, of course, when you get more footing and you have those relationships with an editor, that's when it's like, hey, this is something that we've worked together two or three times. How about a story on hydro flask mugs?
00:22:43
Speaker
you know overtaking the world and the editor might be like okay that's cool or you know what yeah not my thing but keep trying it's yeah yeah like you said it's very fluid
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's very fluid. And going back to the baseball analogy, which I'm sure most of your listeners are probably heading for the mute button at this point. But to me, you mentioned about rejection right now. In regards to rejection, you have to have a very short memory. You have to be like the old line about great relievers, your Trevor Hoffman's, your Mariano Rivera's.
00:23:16
Speaker
you have to have a short memory. So you have to have a short memory and you have to just not
Strategic Story Pitching
00:23:21
Speaker
care. Like you have to just, just, you have to brush it off and go and go to the next thing. And so that, I mean, that's, so I look at it more as more like that. Whereas, you know, it always amazes me that, and I guess I understand this because it's daunting to go to a stranger, to write to a stranger and ask them to pay you to write something sight unseen.
00:23:45
Speaker
So it can be very intimidating. But I've done this now, freelance now for almost 15 years, and I don't care. If I can swear, I don't fucking care. If you reject me, great. Okay, well, I'll move on to the next person. So I have a very short memory with this stuff. And to again continue the sports analogy, for new listeners out there,
00:24:15
Speaker
Just because one editor Rejects your pitch. It doesn't mean that pitch is bad It might mean that pitch isn't the right fit for the for the for the for the editor They may the editor might have already commissioned something on a similar topic. It just might not be the magazine style there are
00:24:34
Speaker
dozens of reasons why a pitch doesn't work. The key is to find the outlet where it does work, where the editor is receptive and engaged and is also going to pay you something that is not a pittance. So to me, I always look at pitching as sort of being a quarterback.
00:24:56
Speaker
you know, when the, when the, when the ball is snapped, you know, you, you have your first option to throw to, but if that option doesn't work, well, there's option two, option three, option four, you know, you might look for the tight end or the running back in the backfield or, or you may have to just, you know, take the ball yourself and run it or step out of bounds. So I don't, I don't look, I look at pitching as, as, as I look at, I look at pitching as an, as a, as a,
00:25:21
Speaker
as an as really it's a it's a game of options or it's a an act of options so you your your job is to find the best option and it may not be your first option and you know that's the thing I mean I think if you the the the problem of having of saying well I want this piece to run in the New Yorker or the New York Times or Esquire is that if they say if they're not open again to extend this
00:25:47
Speaker
drawn out football analogy if you're not open guess what like there might be three other three other places that will want that pitch and that'll battle build your.
00:25:58
Speaker
that'll build your career, it'll get you momentum, it'll keep you going. So yeah, I mean, it's, you know, Joe Montana didn't throw to Jerry Rice all the time. You know, he, you know, he would, you know, he didn't, he didn't, you know, it wasn't like he threw every pass to Jerry Rice, he threw it to John Taylor, or Andre Craig, or, you know, or, or, or Brent Jones, like, it wasn't, it wasn't like, okay, Jerry, like, you're open, we're gonna go for it. No, I mean, you, you find, you find the best option. And sometimes the best options is to say, you know what,
00:26:28
Speaker
I'm going to just take a sack here and I'll try again on the next play.
Perseverance in Freelancing
00:26:34
Speaker
I love it because I'm just envisioning like the New Yorker is like triple covered downfield. Yeah, it's like Dion Sanders is locked in on the New Yorker. Again, this is not to say to not try to pitch to land in the New Yorker, to pitch the New Yorker or to pitch those big places. You should, but you can't
00:26:59
Speaker
You can't pin your hopes on that. It's it's still like if I pin my hopes on on every big publication, I would have been out of this. I would have been out of writing in like 2007, 2008. So yeah, you can't you can't just you can't just want to go. You can't just rely on like the the the the prime time players. I mean,
00:27:23
Speaker
I don't know, maybe as my career gets progresses and I'm, I maybe get a little more juice. You know, I don't know how much juice I have now, a thimble juice. Um, I can maybe, maybe my viewpoint will change, but I can't imagine that change. I mean, I always think of someone like Pat Jordan, great sports writer, um, great magazine writer. He's written some terrific books about his experiences as a major league player. And he wrote a great book on Tom Siever and his friendship. He's he's amazing.
00:27:53
Speaker
I mean, and he's, he's been in the national, he's been in the best American sports, right? Like eight times. And, you know, he's one prop. I mean, he's, he's, he's phenomenal. His story on Jose Conseco ran in Deadspin, like in 2007, because he couldn't find any place to run it. So it was like, all right, well, I'll go to Deadspin and, you know, they'll do something with it. They'll treat it properly. And that, and that piece was in the best American sports writing for that year. I'm almost certain of it. So yeah, I mean, you, so even, even the, the great,
00:28:23
Speaker
I think even the great writers, the true legends have to sometimes don't get what they want. And the good ones adapt. And I think that's the key to surviving anything, especially now is you have to adapt. What did it mean to see your name in the notables of Best American Sports Writing? Oh, it was great. It was great.
00:28:53
Speaker
It was wonderful. Because again, I didn't know anything about that. I think Glenn notifies the winners. And I think anybody who writes about sports and who grew up reading those collections and still reads them, you send off your package to
00:29:19
Speaker
your clips to Vermont or the Snowy, wherever Snowy, New England, Enclave, Glenn calls home. Alberg, Vermont. Yeah, Alberg, Vermont. There we go. So you send it off and then you look, oh, I think I have a shop this year. And then months pass and you see people on Twitter or Facebook or whatever social media is now.
00:29:43
Speaker
top of the top of the heap, you know, exclaim that they made that their that their piece got selected. And that's what they should do. And that's great because it's a huge honor to make it. But yeah, you know, I was like, OK, well, I guess I didn't make it, you know, no email from Glenn, you know, another another day, another another dollar. So then, you know, and then, you know, out of the blue, a friend of mine and another friend of mine sent me, you know, DM me on Twitter like, hey, like you're in this like you're in the noble selections. And it was and it was great because
00:30:13
Speaker
that to me was because me getting getting into the best being in the best American sport fighting even so even just the I mean the noble section it's a sign of it's a seal of approval it is it's validation and again you know I am it I think
00:30:30
Speaker
For me, my validation comes from, it comes internally because I think, you know, there's, there isn't like, I have like, I don't have like a boss telling me, Hey, you did great on that, you know, on that will obey piece, you know, knock off early for the day. The validation comes from within, but to have someone else, to have Glenn who is, who's just, I have such respect for as a writer and as somebody who is really mentored and
00:30:56
Speaker
nurtured a lot of sports writers, a lot of writers, to have him select that and to be on the same page as Howard Bryant and John Branch. I mean, you'll enjoy this because you're a Seinfeld fan, I think. There's that episode where George gets the job at the New York Yankees, and he tells Jerry about it. Jerry's response is,
00:31:21
Speaker
Ruth, Garrig, DiMaggio, Mantel, Costanza. Like, that's how I felt with the Best American sports riding. It's like there are all these great names and it's just like, here's me just, you know, just, you know, riding the pine. Happy to be, you know, I'm basically Moonlight Graham, just happy to step on the field for a moment. It was great because again, you
00:31:47
Speaker
I think I want those little moments of validation, those little M&Ms that are like, oh yeah, you did great. And that was one of them. That was a big fucking M&M. So I was really, really happy about that. And again, the writing there is just so superb. I remember there was one year where Wright Thompson's piece on Michael Jordan turning 50
00:32:09
Speaker
didn't get put in the main, didn't get, wasn't selected for inclusion in the main, the main, the main book. And I was like, what the hell is, like, what? Like that was, that was insane. That was like gay to least level good. And that's not even in there. It doesn't do very, it doesn't do a lot of good to examine, you know, if you, you know, if you make the top of that day's mountain,
00:32:37
Speaker
it doesn't do a lot of good to, you know, to examine like, the three steps that you fell, you know, like, Oh, I stumbled here, I clawed here, like, you made them out. Like, let's just enjoy, you know, let's enjoy like that. Like you made you scaled that day's hillock. Like you made the top of the hillock. Let's celebrate that. So yeah, I mean, but again, you're right. It's with the best American sports writing, I'm always amazed at what isn't included.
00:33:00
Speaker
Or what's in the notable selection? It's like, wow. Like, I remember reading that piece and being blown away by it. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's to delve into the specifics of the selection process. You know what, I think we all have better things to do than dissect that for, you know, for 25, 30 minutes.
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah. Well, of course, amidst all this amazing freelance work you're doing, you decide to write a book and you've got...
From Freelance to Book Inspiration
00:33:34
Speaker
So what was the genesis of this book and how did you start to fold that into the fray? Well, the genesis of the book came about because of a freelance piece that I wrote.
00:33:47
Speaker
So there you go. That was that's the first thing. The first art, life, art, imitates life, I guess, or whatever weird, whatever silly express you want to use. Yeah, I've written a piece for Grantland on Marvin Gaye's National Anthem at the 1983 NBA All-Star Game. And it was my first big piece for a major outlet or publication and
00:34:14
Speaker
I mean, I put everything into that. I think I interviewed 25 people and combed through books and articles. As I was writing that story and reporting it, what came to my mind was, you know what? There's more to this story than I'm putting in.
00:34:36
Speaker
Um, and there's so much stuff that I'm leaving out of this story and so much stuff that, and there's so much stuff about what happened before the national anthem and what happened after the national anthem with the NBA's history that, you know, that I think there needs, I think there could be something bigger here. So I wrote the story. I think it went real, I was really proud of it. It went really well. Um,
00:35:02
Speaker
And then I was talking to a source in that piece, Lon Rosen, who later became Magic Johnson's agent and now is a big muckety muck with the Dodgers. So we were texting back and forth and he wrote to me, you know, there seems like there seems like there's a book here. And I thought, oh yeah, okay. Like you see this too. Like I'm not the only person who is crazy enough to think that this could work in a larger,
00:35:32
Speaker
in a book. So after that, I began writing pieces focused around the time period that I wanted to cover. I wanted to cover the late 70s into the late 80s. That was at the time. It was just very hazy. So I did some pieces for SLAM, the great basketball publication that covered
00:35:56
Speaker
older players and also things like the slam dunk, not the slam dunk, this part of me. Yeah, the first slam dunk contest with Larry Nance, the old timers game, I did pieces there, wrote a piece for Rolling Stone on Salem Sportswear, which is a big part of the NBA's apparel inroads. Let's see, I wrote a piece for Vice Sports, David Roth, about basketball cards, about some goofy NBA basketball cards I was obsessed with as a kid, and that
00:36:21
Speaker
introduced me to some key sources with the Denver Nuggets and also in the NBA. So after I wrote five I'd say four or five pieces over the over from I'd say 2013 to 2016 that further cemented that this could be a book and I felt that I had enough sources
00:36:45
Speaker
and enough people who would not ignore my emails to proceed. In terms of how I folded that into the freelancing workload, and I'm happy to talk more about this, I really, really, really cut back on freelancing. I think the only gigs that I kept were my column for the writer, Freelance Success, which was once a month, and that paid between 350 and 450 bucks.
00:37:15
Speaker
And I kept a column that I write for ICON, which is a really, really good arts and entertainment magazine out in New Hope, Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia. And that paid, I don't know, like a hundred something. So between the advance and those two anchor clients or anchor gigs,
00:37:37
Speaker
I could barely squeak by. So I wrote, I reported the book for 11 months and I spent five months writing it. And in between, so it was just, I was basically writing, reporting as much as I could during the week, into the weekends, and then doing those other two gigs and that was it. And that was not something I would do again. There were some months that were really tight, but you know,
00:38:03
Speaker
We, my wife, uh, was, you know, we cut back on some things. Um, we had an emergency fund. I borrowed some money from my parents, which I paid back. Thanks mom and dad. Um, and you know, we made, we were able to make it work, but yeah, it was, it was a re it was, it was a tight squeeze.
00:38:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's good to hear you be so forthright and forthcoming about that, because I think a lot of people, and Woody and Yan talks a lot about this, that freelancers sometimes rarely... What's the
Financial Challenges in Writing
00:38:36
Speaker
word? I'm like... Talk about sometimes the privilege it takes to sometimes either get the freelancing off the ground and sometimes to even sustain it. So it's really good to hear you talk about that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, that's the thing. I mean, there is...
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah, she is absolutely right. And she's great. Yeah, I mean, we need to talk about that. This is something that requires some amount of financial foundation. It can be savings. It can be a part-time or full-time job. And you write on weekends and when you're free. And it can also be family members.
00:39:19
Speaker
But I will say this. I never want to be this kind of human being. I never want to rely solely on the generosity of other people.
00:39:34
Speaker
I never want to be the kind of person who's like, Oh, well, you know, no problem. I'll just, I'm just going to, you know, ride this out and you know, mom and dad will ride a check. No, like that's, that's, that's, that's awful. Like that's an awful way to be a, that's an awful way to act as a professional and as a human being. So to me, you have to, to me, you have to be self-sufficient. Like, I think that's the goal. If you're not, if you're not self-sufficient at this, if you're not, or at least if you're not striving for that.
00:40:04
Speaker
That's a real problem. Because again, this is work. You know what I mean? I think a lot of people tend to look at writers and other artists or other people that are in a creative field as sort of being free spirits who work for the muse and you write when you want to. And you just watch the TV and then the checks just keep rolling in. Nope.
00:40:31
Speaker
Like this is a job, like you have to treat, you have to, you have to be, you have to be, you're your own PR agent, you're your own accountant, your own marketing person. It is all on you. And my goal is to, is to be self-sufficient. And if I didn't have, you know, if we didn't have savings, if my wife didn't have a good job, if my parents weren't in a position where they could help us out for a little bit, I would be trying whatever I could to do this, um,
00:41:00
Speaker
to keep this going. You make the best of what's around, to quote Dave Matthews. You take advantage of the resources that are there, but you don't become a parasite. And I think if you do that and you're a good citizen, as you say, I like to think that you're going to be OK. But you can't be greedy about it. You can't think that this is
00:41:28
Speaker
You can't think that, well, I'm doing this because this is more important than anything else. Like what I have to write is more important than anything else. That is a real, that's poisonous in my opinion. Yeah. How did you settle on the scope of this book from the late 70s through late 80s, early 90s? You kind of delve into a little bit, but mainly that decade. How did you settle on that?
00:41:56
Speaker
Because it was a period of history, a period of history in the NBA that I didn't really, I really hadn't read much about. I'd read snippets, I mean, I'd read, I'd seen tastes of it here and there, but I hadn't read a book that really
00:42:09
Speaker
tackled that era. There are books written about the ABA. Terry Pluto's Loose Balls is a great oral history of the ABA. And Terry also wrote a good book about the NBA's early days called Tall Tales, another oral history that is, I think any basketball fan would adore. Leonard Coppett wrote 24 Seconds to Shoot, which is a great, great short book on the history of the NBA in the early days. David Havelston wrote books about
00:42:39
Speaker
Michael Jordan and the NBA at that time in the 90s, late 80s, and all sorts of breaks of the game, his seminal basketball book, The Portland Trailblazers, and the NBA in the late 70s, early 80s. I mean, there have been books. I mean, I've read a lot. And so those books had dealt with periods of time.
00:42:59
Speaker
that I you know that really really well and I'd read a lot of other books that dealt with you know, the modern day NBA or You know or you know Maybe certain parts of the NBA in the 80s like the end like the 84 NBA draft But I had read anything that looked at how the NBA got to become the NBA in all caps So I thought okay. Well, I don't know much about Larry O'Brien who was the commissioner during that during the first leg of that of that timeline and
00:43:26
Speaker
So I want to know more about him, and I want to know more about these events that turned the NBA into this giant corporate behemoth. So that's where my thinking was. And I thought, well, 89 is when NBC signed its deal with the NBA for 600 million, which I think was sort of the beginning of the end of the NBA, sort of this plucky upstart
00:43:52
Speaker
So it just felt right to me. It just felt, you know, just based on what I'd read and what I started to research and report, it just felt like that was the right timeline for me to explore. There are so many intersecting confluences of personalities and probably luck throughout that seminal decade.
David Stern's NBA Transformation
00:44:13
Speaker
you know, Larry O'Brien's wingman was, you know, a very ambitious lawyer named David Stern. And he was sitting there right in the wing and he had a vision and he was able to really just through sheer force of will and intellect and rigor, you know, forge the NBA in the shape that he wanted it. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the story that I want. I wanted to tell that story. I wanted to tell how, you know, again, there were a lot of, there were so many books about the NBA, but I didn't really feel like you'd, I really hadn't read
00:44:44
Speaker
many books about how David Stern became, you know, a master of the universe. And it was amazing. It was it was really it was so it was I mean, there were so many things about this book that I just enjoyed. But one of the things I enjoyed was just going back and reading about Larry O'Brien and talking to people about him and
00:45:04
Speaker
even reading his unpublished oral history, that his son was gracious enough to let me peruse for a couple of days. What was great about was, what was ingenious about that partnership was that I think Larry O'Brien, the job was almost a step down for him.
00:45:23
Speaker
He had been a member of JFK's Irish Mafia. He basically was one of JFK's power brokers. And he later worked for the Johnson administration and he was the chairman of the DNC for a couple of terms. So to go from that to a league that was barely on the national sports radar,
00:45:46
Speaker
was a step down. But Larry O'Brien loved basketball. I think he liked to be in control. I think he liked that part of it. But his great skill was recognizing the town around him and using it for the better. And he saw something in David Stern that allowed him to
00:46:14
Speaker
look over the NBA in the way that he was comfortable with, which I think was mostly as a figurehead, which is what the NBA needed. The NBA needed somebody to protect gravitas, to project seriousness, to show that the NBA was in charge, that they were serious. And so by Larry playing that role, David Stern was able to do all of the grunt work and all of the leg work to get the NBA ready for the 80s and the 1990s.
00:46:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, to me, I think Larry O'Brien is really one of the unsung heroes in this book because I've said this before, we've all worked for bosses that are just assholes, that want the credit, that want the glory, that want to be in charge. But he saw David Stern as somebody who was an ally, who was somebody that he could say, you know what, you can do this, I trust you to do this.
00:47:09
Speaker
go for it. And I think that's a great gift that a lot of executives, a lot of bosses don't have is this ability to take a step back and just trust their employees to do their best work.
00:47:22
Speaker
And Stern was such an example of what hard work it took to get it where it was. And he definitely led by example in terms of a long work day, that's for sure. And there's a part about a third of the way through the book, too, where one of his employees recalls leaving about 5.30, 6 o'clock PM. And Stern's like, oh, working a half day, are you?
00:47:49
Speaker
No, that was, and I think that's why so many of his employees respected him. I mean, there were people who did not like David Stern. I don't want to paint David Stern as a hoops-loving Mother Teresa. He wasn't.
00:48:04
Speaker
But he worked just as hard, if not harder than everyone else in that office. And he also gave his employees the leeway that Larry O'Brien gave him. So, you know, there was no, there was no idea at the NBA in the, in the seventies and eighties that was off the table. Like if you had an idea to do something, you could try it out, see how it works. There was no, there was no failing. What was great about David Stern, I think, I think my employees loved him so much is that he was all about
00:48:34
Speaker
doing things differently. He didn't want to do the same old thing. So if you're an employee there, you have free range or the perception of free range to do what you want to do. So one of David Stern's biggest pet peeves was he hated to hear the phrase, that's the way we've always done it.
00:48:52
Speaker
He hated that. He hated it. He wanted you to try something new. He wanted you to look at something differently. He wanted you to go into a project with a fresh pair of eyes. And he wanted you to be prepared. And I think if you did those things and
00:49:12
Speaker
you tried your best, I really do think that he was your best ally. I mean, people I talk to for this book talk of like, oh yeah, you know, I still feel like I can call David and he'll help me out of a jam. I still go to him for advice. He was somebody who I really think understood the nature of relationships and understood that you, as we were talking about just earlier, you give what you get. So if
00:49:39
Speaker
If he gives his employees the room to explore and to try and to fail, he's going to get back great work. He's going to get back loyalty. If David Stern puts in a 13-hour workday, he's going to get the same back from his boys because they're seeing him coming in at 7 o'clock in the morning or 7.30 and leaving at 8.30 at night. David Stern understood the value of reciprocity
00:50:08
Speaker
I think better than any person I've ever covered. He engendered a lot of loyalty for what he did just as an employer and as a worker for sure.
00:50:23
Speaker
Yeah. And as he was looking to, to grow the sport and showcase the athletes, there was a moment in the, when, when he's really looking to hone what the all-star game was. And, you know, through, through, through the people you interviewed, you know, they, they recalled, they said like, guys, you don't get it. You just don't get it. We're not just a sport. We're Disney. And that was a big inflection point. Oh, it's a huge inflection point. Because again, the, you know, the NBA, I think until
00:50:53
Speaker
until David Stern started to put the wheels in motion. The NBA was all about the sport. It was all about, OK, let's get a TV contract. It was just like checking off the boxes. Let's get a TV contract. OK, let's make sure that the teams have decent uniforms. I mean, the all-star game is hosted at a place that's hosted down on the same day as a tractor pole. It was very, very basic. And David Stern,
00:51:22
Speaker
It was a men's credit said like, no, like we were not there. There wasn't enough of a history with the NBA to just promote the sport. You know how with baseball, baseball has been doing this for years, like we're about the sport. We're about the you know, we're about the good old days and about, you know, taking its detriment. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the NFL, too, is like, you know, we're about the shield and about, you know, being tough. And David Stern knew
00:51:49
Speaker
That that is that wasn't gonna fly there was no there was you had maybe the Celtics history but like that was it so he knew that the NBA had to be had to be had to be Disney they had it had to be.
00:52:03
Speaker
it had to have heroes. It had to have arenas that were amusement parks with great, half-time entertainment, and time out, and empty metering time outs, and really good food, and Jumbotrons that showed you every great highlight, and video, and VHS tapes that showed great dunks, and players falling on their ass. You needed those
00:52:28
Speaker
you needed those big splashy things to attract casual fans who would become diehard fans. The diehard fans weren't going to go anywhere. If you were an NBA fan back in 1976, 1977, you were going to go anywhere. You were going to watch the games. You were going to read Peter Bessie. You were going to watch the games on CBS or ABC.
00:52:52
Speaker
But the casual fans didn't care. Just didn't care. The people that didn't know Walt Frazier from a hole in the ground weren't going to care. But David Stern realized, we need people. We need characters. We need things that are going to get
00:53:13
Speaker
the cat that they're going to get the person who is not a fan buzzing so as who was it told me the steve patterson the gm at the rockets like if you go to a game and like the hot dogs are pulled and like you're sitting on like a slab of concrete and like the ushers are surly and and there's and there's there's nothing to do and you have to walk
00:53:34
Speaker
like five flights of stairs for a bathroom, that's going to turn off 90% of your potential customer base. So you have to treat, so the NBA, so Davidson treated the NBA really like it was an amusement park. And I'll bring it down to you this way. You may not like Mickey Mouse, but you know who he is, right? Like you put Mickey Mouse in front of anybody. You can say, oh, they're Mickey Mouse.
00:53:59
Speaker
You may not like LeBron James. You may not like basketball. You may not like his politics. But if you put a photo of LeBron James in front of 100 people, I would say 70% know who he is. And it's the same principle.
00:54:14
Speaker
You may not like, you may not like, you may not like, uh, basketball. You may not like, it's a small world after all. You may not like Chippendale, but like, you know who those people are. You know who they are. And guess what? Like if you're, if you have a kid and they're a basketball fan, you're going to know them the way that I know Peppa pig. I have a four year old. So like, you're going to know who the, who those people are. And.
00:54:36
Speaker
It worked. It worked brilliantly. So, you know, I know people always say Pete Roselle is the greatest commissioner of the last 50 years, 60 years. If David, to me, it's David Stern, and if he's not, then David Stern is 1A.
00:54:51
Speaker
Yeah, and to his credit, too, you think with someone who is such a ruthless businessman, but with the sheer love for the game, you think he might be kind of rigid. But then there's a point two-thirds of the way through the book, too, where it's the Air Jordan battle, the sneaker battle. And eventually he relents to let Jordan wear those shoes because he says, my kid thinks I'm an asshole because I didn't let Jordan wear those shoes.
00:55:19
Speaker
you know he was fluid he grew with the game absolutely and he and he and he did that later too i mean if you look you know he he was somebody who he i don't think he would ever say that he made a mistake but he would correct it i mean if you look at the dress code in 2005 um you know the players were getting more influenced by hip-hop
00:55:38
Speaker
I think it was 2004, 2005. The player was getting more influenced by hip-hop, by the fact that they came out of hip-hop. So they're not wearing suits. They're not dressed like they're going to church or they're going to a job interview. They're dressed like the people they hang out with. They're dressed like the people, the artists that they listen to. So they're wearing a lot of baggy clothes and chains and stuff like that. So David Stern goes nuts. It's like, no, there's a dress code now. You're gonna dress like this and none of this.
00:56:08
Speaker
and the players hated it like the player like the players like to a man like fuck this shit we're not doing this so he he relented and but and if you look at and if you look at the NBA now like what's what's one of the most most seen things of a game like before the game starts like you always see the player walk from the bus or from the car to the locker room and they're and it's almost like a catwalk
00:56:33
Speaker
Like you like the players always is like a Russell Westbrook or James Harden They're always dressed like super chic like they're wearing like that I think David Stern unders like that's what like that He couldn't he wasn't gonna win. He wasn't gonna win that battle. Like there's some cultural bows. You're not going to win like Raps a good example of that too. Like you're not like you may not like rap but like this is what the kids are listening to it's like you have to you have to adapt and David Stern did that really well like he
00:57:01
Speaker
You know, he was, you know, if there was something that players were not going to go for later in his career, like the, like when the NBA changed his basketball, I think it was in 2004, they had this weirdo. They changed the grip and players hated it. Like their complaint of getting bloody fingers and, and just hating it. They, he changed it back. So he was, he had to be fluid and that was his greatest gift. Like he never.
00:57:25
Speaker
Like he was the anti-Rob Manfred. I don't remember this, but there was a slate of people getting hit by foul balls in crowds. Do you remember this? Or bats, just people getting beat? Yeah, it was happening at an alarming rate. And older people were getting hurt, kids were getting hurt.
00:57:53
Speaker
the logical explanation would be, OK, let's extend the netting. Let's just extend the netting. David Stern would have solved that problem in like three seconds. OK, everybody, we're putting up netting. Rob Manfred goes on and on about, oh, well, I don't know. We have to talk to the stadiums, and it's about the integrity of the game, and I don't know, and blah, blah, blah.
00:58:19
Speaker
It's like, dude, just put the netting up. We don't have to consult with John Thorne and Ken Burns and the ghost of Andrew Doubleday to approve this. Just put the nets up. Put the nets up. It's fine. But that was David Stern's greatest gift was he went with the flow. He didn't really talk about
00:58:43
Speaker
He wasn't, he wasn't tied down to the NBA's tradition, to the NBA's tradition because the NBA's tradition was that there really was no tradition. You know, if you look at the bubble, um, this year, like that, you know, that was, that wasn't traditional, but like they, the NBA did it and you know, the games went off without a hitch and everyone was, you know, they did the best with what they, with what they had. So when I don't, when I think of David Stern, I don't, I don't think of like a tradition. I just think of.
00:59:12
Speaker
He did what he needed to do to make the most money and also to make the most fans and most players happy. And I think that is really something that a lot of the sports, especially baseball, a sport that I loved as a kid could benefit from.
00:59:34
Speaker
Do you think it played to your advantage, uh, crafting this book that you, as much as you may have wanted to speak with David Stern before he passed away or even Michael Jordan, that you didn't speak with them directly and that you're able to, you know, source them out through hundreds of interviews?
Interview Challenges and Benefits
00:59:52
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yes. And again, look, it would have, I would have loved to have spoken to Michael Jordan and Larry Bird and Magic Johnson would have loved it.
01:00:00
Speaker
They were not, I will bet you a million dollars, they would not have given me a candid interview because they have too much to lose. They're millionaires or billionaires and they're businessmen and they're gonna approach this as, they're gonna approach this in terms of, okay, well, what can I say that isn't gonna get me in trouble? They're not gonna be candid with me because there's no benefit for them to be candid.
01:00:27
Speaker
They're you know, and it's and they're probably gonna give me maybe 30 minutes if I were lucky and it was not gonna be anything particularly insightful So but here's the thing, you know, there are newspaper clippings where they talk about you know, where they talk where they speak as men in the heat of their jobs They have been subject. They've been the subject of many many many good books many some great books and
01:00:53
Speaker
Larry and Magic Johnson wrote a really good memoir with Jack McMullen that tells about their playing days. Magic Johnson's, My Life is Pretty Darn Good, Birds Booked Rock. Their material is out there. So it wasn't necessary to talk to them. And again, even if I had talked to them, it probably would have been very formal, very clipped.
01:01:18
Speaker
Which is fine, that's their right to do that. But it was no great loss, I didn't talk to them. As for David Stern, you're absolutely right. You can report around a subject's absence if you make a shit ton of phone calls, if you go into newspapers.com and look at clips, if you read books, if you read as many books as you can find and find anecdotes and find topics that weren't covered before.
01:01:46
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, it was I don't think it was detrimental at all that they didn't speak to me because it made me work harder. It made me get more information. It made me it made me hungrier to find out what made these what made these guys tick, especially David Stern. I'm looking here at my bookcase. I'm turning around because I'm calling you from my basement office. I'm looking at Jeff Perlman Showtime about the 1980s Lakers.
01:02:13
Speaker
which is one of my favorite basketball books, if not favorite non-fiction books of all time. He didn't talk to Magic Johnson. He didn't talk to Reno Guiljebar. He didn't talk to Pat Riley. So those to me are pretty much the three faces of the Lakers. Like, I don't know about you, but when I think of the Lakers, one of those three guys pop up. I'm looking at David Halverson's book on Michael Jordan.
01:02:34
Speaker
He didn't he didn't talk to Michael Jordan and he books on Michael Jordan. He didn't talk to Michael Jordan. You know, Scott Rabs book about falling LeBron LeBron James during his first season post Cleveland Cavaliers with Miami Heat. He didn't talk to LeBron. And that's a fascinating book. So, yeah, you you you can do a lot if you're if you're hungry and if you look for
01:03:01
Speaker
And if you talk, and to use a phrase that I love, if you talk to the mechanics and not the owner of the repair shop. Oh, that's great. And the, um, I think part of the packaging of this book too, is the, uh, the, the interviews that you conduct at the very end, you list everybody you interviewed, uh, over 300 sources. And I think, uh, so why was it important for you to kind of show your work in this, in this way?
01:03:29
Speaker
That's a really good question. First of all, I owe it to the readers, to anyone who picks up the book. I owe it to them. I want them to see the work. I want them to see like, hey, this is what I did. Because I've said this, I'm probably going to say this 8,000 times, but I'm not a name. I'm not Jeff Perlman. I'm not Jackie McMullen. I'm not Jack McCallum. I don't have a reputation
01:03:55
Speaker
as a, I don't have a reputation that someone's going to pick up a book and be, oh my God, Pete Colada wrote a book. Jesus, I got to read this. So to me, I wanted people to see the work. I wanted them to see like, hey, these are people that I talked to for the book who were included. And if we're including people I talked to,
01:04:18
Speaker
who I quoted from earlier articles or who didn't make the cut, I think we're looking at like 350 people. So I wanted people to see like, yeah, these are the people I spoke to, the work is in here. You can knock the writing, you can knock the organization, you can knock things I didn't include, but do not, do not work the work that I put in. So I wanted to see the people, I wanted to show people that, yeah, you know, this is as, this is a full meal you're getting. Like, I'm not gonna give you like,
01:04:48
Speaker
a packet of saltines and kick out of my house. You come to my house, I'm going to give you sausage bread, there's going to be a crudita that's really looking good, and then there's going to be some nice wine, there's going to be
01:05:03
Speaker
I'm Italian mostly, so I'm going to make some great pizzas for you and make Parmesan. My wife is going to help me out and bake her delicious apple pie. I wanted to show what was on the menu. I know food analogies and writing is the biggest fucking trope, but fuck it.
01:05:25
Speaker
That's what I'm gonna go with here. I wanted people to show what they were gonna sit down, what they were in store for. And I don't know about you, but I always go to the back of the book and look for the interviews and look for the book of the bibliography and look at the references, because that to me, that's an enticement for me to sit down and read a book. I wanna see the work that you did, and nothing deflates me more
01:05:50
Speaker
then going to the back of a book and looking at the interview section or the reference section and seeing 15 people interviewed for a 300 page book. It's just, it's just, it's like, Oh no, like I can't do that. Like I, it just, to me, it's just, it doesn't bode well for, for what I'm looking for. So I wanted people to, I want to, I wanted people to see the work and I'm, I'm very appreciative for Simon and Susan Atre for,
01:06:19
Speaker
devoting pages for me showing the work. I think that's a big part of any book is, what did you the writer bring to the table? What was the nature of your pitch to various people, whether that's like a Phil Knight or DJ Jazzy Jeff? What was the nature of that?
01:06:41
Speaker
Well, I'll tell you the long story on Phil Knight because that was not like me pitching Phil Knight. But with DJ Jazzy Jeff, it was, you know, I'm writing this book about the NBA in the eighties, in the seventies and eighties. And, you know, hip hop is an integral part of it. You know, I know you're a basketball fan. Can we talk? It was just, it was just framing it as, as I can't write this book without you. And that to me is, you know, that to me is such a key thing with, with this book. Like I don't feel like this is my book.
01:07:08
Speaker
I mean, my name's on it, which is great, but it's the book. It's the people who live that period of time, who covered the NBA, who played the games, made the deals, who contributed to the culture at the time. It's their book. So to me, I think I painted it as like, look, I need your help to tell this story. And I'd love to just take 20 minutes or 30 minutes, whatever time that you have to tell me the story.
01:07:35
Speaker
To the credit of a vast number of people, they were down. There were rejections, but for the most part, they were down. With Phil Knight, Nike initially declined to participate. Howie Kahn, who was a friend of mine and who had worked with Nike on his great book, Sneakers, which he wrote with Alex French and Rodrigo Corral, he had worked with Nike.
01:07:58
Speaker
He had, he had, you know, he had worked with her PR team and he said, yeah, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll pave the way for you. I said, great. Thank you. How terrific. So I talked to Nike's PR team there at a couple of conversations. They went well. Then I talked to Michael Jordan's publicist and who was very nice, but she said, you know, Michael is not going to, Michael doesn't want to participate. He's, he just, it's just, he's, you know, appreciates the offer, but he, he's just not interested.
01:08:27
Speaker
OK, so I went back to Nike with that. I think I went back to Nike and I said, oh, yeah, you know, are we still down? You know, Michael, unfortunately, won't participate. But, you know, I'm happy to talk to everyone else. So at that point, the PR guy said the PR I miss said, yeah, you know, if Michael isn't going to participate, we we just we just we just can't.
01:08:50
Speaker
Okay, so I'm like, oh this is this is fucking suck. So what I'm gonna do now, so So what I did was again, I started to report around, you know, I you talk to people you find people on LinkedIn who are With who used to work for Nike they talk to you. They directed other people you read books and you find names and you reach out to them so with Phil Knight That came about because I found a name
01:09:15
Speaker
I was reading a book of, as I often do, as I often did for this book, which was, you know, a great pleasure because I got to read many great books and one of them was Taking to the Air, The Life of Michael Jordan by Jim Naughton. It's an early Jordan biography and it's outstanding. I don't know why it's not talked about in the catalog of Jordan biographies. It's outstanding.
01:09:39
Speaker
So in this book about about Michael Jordan and in his which it chronicles Jordan's rise from, let's say, childhood to him becoming a megastar or on the cusp of becoming a megastar. So in that book, you know, I'm jotting down names of people who I thought might be good sources. And one of them, one name that came up was it was a Nike executive named Mark Thomas show. It's a name I hadn't seen before. Mark Thomas. That's interesting. Okay, well, let me let me reach out to him. So I reached out to Mark.
01:10:08
Speaker
through LinkedIn, which I think was a great asset to this book, truly. If you're writing a book and you have to find retired executives or just executives in period, LinkedIn is amazing for that. So I reached out to Mark on LinkedIn and he wrote back to me. He said, yeah, let's check over FaceTime. So we chat and it's a really good conversation. I'm telling him my story like, hey, you know,
01:10:35
Speaker
I want to write about Nike because they were integral to the rise of basketball sneakers as a cultural piece of fashion and also with the NBA.
01:10:45
Speaker
So I'm talking and I'm talking and, you know, he's, he gets, you know, the only, the only moment where we didn't get along was when he spotted the, the Puma flip freight, the Puma, the Puma poster of Walt Clyde Frazier that I have in my back, in my back, in my, in my office is in my, it's in the background. So he wasn't too pleased about that being a lifetime Nike guy. But other than that, it was a great conversation. So at the end of the conversation, he says, he says, okay, Pete, I'll talk to you. I'm happy to talk to you. But let me see who else I can get.
01:11:13
Speaker
You know, I have a pretty good batting average. Let me see what I can get for you. That was the understatement of the year with with the book. So immediately after that, it was George Gerben talk to me. Gary Way, who is who is a big who's a big time executive Nike and who has worked for the NBA, talked to me and he was great. Who else? Let's see. Bill Davenport helped create those Nike ads that you see with with with Spike Lee and Michael Jordan like he spoke to me.
01:11:40
Speaker
It was those four guys. And then Steve Coonan, who's the CEO of the Atlanta Hawks, like, you know, yeah, call me on myself. Fuck. Okay. So then, so then Mark says, all right, well, you know, reach out to Lisa McKillips, who is, who's Phil's assistant. He'll get, you know, see what you can do. Reach out to Lisa a couple of days later. Yeah. Bill will talk to you. Like, let's, how, how much time do you need?
01:12:03
Speaker
Like, uh, okay. Like, sure. I'll talk to Phil Knight. Yeah. Oh, great. So, and the best part was, was like, you know, Phil Knight was, you know, he was, he was very, very accommodating. I mean, he even called me back on, he even called me back on my cell and I missed the phone call cause I was at the movies. I think I was watching, I don't know what I was watching, but like, yeah, Phil Knight called. It was so like, and that was because like Mark, you know, Mark believed in the project and was, you know, trusted me to tell,
01:12:30
Speaker
his story and the story of Nike employees. Another guy that I got through, Mark, was Tinker Hatfield, who designed the Jordan shoes after Jordan 2. So yeah, again, it was a lot of this book, not just Mark, but a lot of people
01:12:50
Speaker
saying, yeah, you know, yeah, I can connect you with him or her. Yeah, I'll reach let me reach out to him. He'll talk to you. A lot of it was just people trusting to tell their stories to me and trusting, just trusting to make the time for me. So yeah, it was, you know, a lot of it was just cold catching. But a lot of it was, yeah, this guy gave me your number, that person gave me your number and going from there.
01:13:15
Speaker
And how would you say that you developed and grew as an interviewer over the course of just this book alone? It's a good question. I think I learned how to listen better. I think I learned that everybody who you talk to for anything, whether it's an 800 word article or in this case, 100,000 word book,
01:13:46
Speaker
They have a story to tell. It's a story that you need to listen to. That person's giving you their time. That's something that is not to be taken very lightly. We all lead very busy lives. We all live now very chaotic lives. So for someone to spend 30 minutes with you, for someone to spend 30 minutes talking to a stranger is really a remarkable thing if you think about it.
01:14:17
Speaker
so i i really gained a newfound appreciation for listening and for being for caring i guess that may sound yeah for caring for being empathetic and just for for just being a good listener i i don't know if i don't i'm not saying i was a bad listener before but i think when you talk to 300 plus people for a book over anything i i think you you learn
01:14:43
Speaker
that you're not, it's not about the score. It's not about getting the great quote. It's not about, but it's about developing that relationship. So you can go back to that person and you can get that person to feel like they're talking to somebody that they can, that they can trust, that they feel comfortable, um, in trusting their story with. I mean, there's a great, there's a great anecdote in Tom Verducci's profile of a Roger Angel, the New Yorker writer.
01:15:13
Speaker
And in the piece, I can call him Roger because I know him. He talks about writing a profile of Bob Gibson, who recently passed away, a profile about Bob Gibson's life after baseball. And Roger Angel tells this story of his wife, Bob Gibson's wife, coming up to him and saying, look, we're giving you our lives here.
01:15:39
Speaker
And that was really with this book, you know, again, I, I said that this is, this was not, I didn't, I don't feel like this is my book. I feel like this is the book of everyone who took 20 minutes or in the case of, of, of, of someone like Don Sterling and Don, and Don Sperling hours upon hours to talk to me, it's their story. And, you know, as a journalist, you, you know, you're, you're not, you don't want to publish what's convenient and you don't want to publish what is what someone wants to hear.
01:16:09
Speaker
but that they trusted me to tell the story as a journalist. And I hope I did a good job with this.
01:16:18
Speaker
I love to just in what you've been recounting the last few minutes or so that there's really no substitute for the sleuthing and the legwork of finding, going that extra distance, going to a relatively in terms of the big social networks, a relatively obscure social network to find a lead domino that opened up this thing you could have never had access to had you not just
01:16:44
Speaker
done that little extra bit of getting down on your knees with the magnifying glass and looking for clues. Like it's, that's just, I love that to hear you talk about that and that there really is no substitute for just getting dirty. No, you have to, you have to. I mean, I used to, the, the, the, I've written about this. In fact, I think I wrote a whole column for the writer about, about this, but when I was in college, I hated talking to people. I hated talking to strangers. And, you know, over time, if you want to make any headway,
01:17:15
Speaker
in anything involving words going on a page, you have to talk to people. And it's funny, I mean, I wanted to be a movie reviewer when I was in my 20s. And, you know, I don't think anyone knows me as a movie reviewer, except maybe my friends I went to high school and college with who, you know, still read my, my, my
01:17:37
Speaker
my musings every month or so. But I've really grown to love, as you said, just the sleuthing part of it. You're working on a mystery. You're trying to solve, you're trying to put a puzzle together. And I love that. That, to me, is how I look at it. I look at this as a clue, as getting clues and putting them together just to solve something. And to do that, you need to
01:18:03
Speaker
call and call and email and beg and pester. But it doesn't feel so bad and I don't feel so nervous about it now because I know it's for a greater good. Like I'm not calling up Barbara Ward or Tinker Hatfield. I'm not selling them vinyl siding. Like I'm not trying to get them into Amway. Like I'm trying to tell a story here. Like I'm trying, I want to tell the story and I want to tell it right. And I can't do it if I can do it a little bit better if you help me.
01:18:34
Speaker
That is something that I love to do. I love trying to just get that train on the tracks. And I hope I can do it again with a book. I mentioned Jeff Promont a couple of times, and I think he's such a dogged reporter. And his books sell great, and they're so popular, but it's because he puts in the hours to talk to everybody. And he said something once, I think it was almost offhand,
01:19:04
Speaker
But I've never forgotten it. He said, make the extra phone call. If you've talked to 10 people, call toll 11. If you've talked to 300 people, call 301. Make the extra phone call, because you never know what that extra phone call is going to bring to the story. You don't know what wrinkle, what avenue that phone call is going to bring to the story.
01:19:31
Speaker
to use another example. I talked to, years ago, I talked to Kenny Gamble and Leonard and Gamble and Huff, the great music producer in Philadelphia, who, you know, just, you know, did the, you know, were responsible for launching the OJ's and all these great bands. Leon Huff said something I thought was interesting. He said, you know, you talk about putting together about these ornate tracks with strings and session musicians and drum tracks.
01:20:02
Speaker
He said, that little ding could be the difference. Like that cowbell could be the difference between a good song and a great song. So I always want to try and add that ding to any, to anything that I'm writing, whether it's an advertorial or a profile or this book, I want to, I want to try and add that little, that little ding that someone, someone, someone that I hope someone appreciates.
01:20:28
Speaker
Well, Pete, the book is incredible and a testament to your dog at hard work as a reporter and certainly as a writer. I scarfed up the book. I loved it. I'm so thrilled that you've got this book under your belt now after all the years of hard work that you've put in.
01:20:48
Speaker
And I also just love that there's no secrets with you. There's no hoarding with you. You're an incredibly generous contributor to the freelancing and writing and journalistic community at large. So I feel great to call you a friend, and I'm so glad we were able to have this conversation again. Oh, Brendan, it was my pleasure. I mean, to hear you say that, I'm tough. So thank you so much. And congratulations on your success. The podcast is
01:21:18
Speaker
I think it's one of those, to me, I listen to it just about weekly. Because I think that I always get something out of it. And I think one of the great parts about being in this industry, being a fitness writer, is you have an excuse to learn. You never know everything. So the moment that I think that I know everything, that I can't get any better,
01:21:47
Speaker
then I actually might be calling Tinker Hatfield to sell him vinyl siding. So yeah, it was an absolute pleasure to do this and thank you so much for having me. Wasn't that great?
01:22:07
Speaker
Pete came to play ball. I love when that happens. Sometimes they don't. And we've got to work it in order to get to the place where we need to go. But there was nothing I had to do with Pete. He came to play and it was wonderful.
Post-show Reflections
01:22:25
Speaker
Even after we turned the mics off, we talked for another 30 minutes. It was pretty special. It's such a pleasure to have him back on the show.
01:22:35
Speaker
You know, it got to dig into his game a bit more and, of course, unpack his incredible new book. First book from Hangtime to Primetime, Atria Books, published that sucker.
01:22:50
Speaker
Yeah. Like I said, he brings such generosity and rigor to his work. And you know, he's an inspiration and I know he makes me want to do better and better work with what I do. And, uh, it's good stuff. I hope you got a lot out of that. So thanks to Pete, thanks to the writer's co-op podcast for promotional support. And thanks to you, you kind CNF and listener. I see you there. It's okay. If you wear your shoes in the house, just make sure you wipe your feet off in the mat. Okay.
01:23:20
Speaker
I should say this show was produced and everything by me, Brendan Amera, as part of Exit 3 Media, my humble little podcast company here in lovely Eugene, Oregon.
Monthly Reading List and CNF Events
01:23:31
Speaker
You can head over to BrendanAmera.com for show notes and to sign up for my monthly reading list newsletter. Oh my goodness. Subscribers to that get reading recommendations.
01:23:41
Speaker
podcast news, entered into book raffles, cool articles, and an exclusive invite to a monthly CNF and happy hour. This month's theme is struggle. What are you struggling with? That's going to be our, you know, our little topic for our little 40 minute hang. If you're a newsletter subscriber, you know what to do once a month. No spam. So far as I can tell, can't beat it.
Seth Godin on Practice
01:24:09
Speaker
So I was listening to Seth Godin on Debbie Millman's Design Matters podcast a couple days ago, and he was talking about his new book, The Practice. You might have heard him here on this humble little podcast as well, but he said this one thing really stuck out to me and it was just so great. And of course he writes about it in the book, but it's a short little quote. The practice is the point.
01:24:32
Speaker
In other words, the work and the grind of it, the repetition of it, the mundanity of it, if you will, has to be its own reward. Taking swings in the batting cage or the driving range, that's where the juice is. Sure, you have to perform well when it matters, but you have to be satisfied in those times when nobody is watching.
01:24:57
Speaker
in those times also when you don't feel like doing it because when you turn pro you do it no matter what you can have a piece you know let's just use writing and freelancing as an example for this it could be anything you could have a piece celebrated in atavist or new yorker or
01:25:16
Speaker
wired or wherever. And you might've won the internet in your little circle for the day. Tons of likes on Twitter, Instagram, wherever. And sure as hell that feels damn good and deserved. And I wish that upon you. But because of the tidal wave of algorithmically curated bullshit come the next day, you're likely all alone again.
Interview Recommendations
01:25:40
Speaker
And it's just you in the practice.
01:25:43
Speaker
Go listen to that interview with Seth and Debbie. Heck, even listen to the one I did with them. I think there's value in there. It was definitely a highlight for me, tons of value there. So that one, I certainly recommend it. It's good. But the one with Debbie, it's great. It's great stuff.
01:26:02
Speaker
Debbie was on the show too, like way back.
Patreon and Community Perks
01:26:05
Speaker
That was good. Anyway, as we land this plane, consider visiting patreon.com so I've seen F Pod to be a member. I've got four amazing tiers of goodies and a few folks have already taken the leap. Unbelievable, it's hard to beat those first people in the door. And they're there, they're there and they're gonna get some cool stuff, let me tell ya.
01:26:29
Speaker
entry-level tier gets you exclusive access to all subsequent issues as long as you're still a member of the audio magazine going forward and other exclusive content as well that I'll post to the patreon community for yucks here and there you know probably behind the scenes videos a little show your work kind of things you know those little things that I dig I dig when other artists kind of show you the how the sausage is made why not
Essay Submissions and Conclusion
01:26:56
Speaker
And that reminds me, speaking of the audio magazine, which the free one just came out, but there's another call for submission, CNFers. If that whetted your appetite, consider submitting to the next issue. And here's the theme, Summer. Email Creative Nonfiction Podcast at gmail.com.
01:27:18
Speaker
Give me your best essay of up to 2,000 words. It's roughly a 15-minute read, but don't worry about the read. That'll happen if the essay is accepted. On that summer theme, run with that. I'm not going to prompt you too much. The deadline is March 21, 2021.
01:27:36
Speaker
I've already conscripted an amazing spoken word poet here in Eugene, Joral Aflor, to write three poems as bridges between various essays I get. And I want a lot. I want your best. Just put summer in the subject line, okay?
01:27:54
Speaker
All right, big ups to you if you made it this far, all right? And if you did, you're one of the good ones. Looking right at you. Looking at you, Melissa. Stay cool, CNFers. Stay cool forever. See ya.
01:28:52
Speaker
you