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Daria Dato
36 Plays17 days ago
Join Alasdair this week as he talks to social worker and therapist Daria Dato about using the outdoors as a tool to wellness!
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Transcript
Introduction to The Outdoorsy Educator Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Outdoorsy Educator Podcast, where stories become lessons and every journey has something to teach us. Every week I sit down with people from all walks of life to hear their adventures, explore their experiences, and uncover the insights that have shaped them along the way.
00:00:21
Speaker
Whether it's from the outdoors, the classroom, or any other path, each conversation offers a fresh perspective on learning, growth, and what it means to truly connect with the world and the people around us.
Meet Daria Datto in North Carolina
00:00:40
Speaker
And on this week's episode of The Outdoorsy Educator, I am joined by Daria Datto. Daria, how are you today? I'm doing great. I'm in North Carolina and it's beautiful here.
00:00:52
Speaker
Yes, I believe you are a fellow Texas resident. You're actually pretty close to where I live, but you are, I'm rather envious. North Carolina, a beautiful state, especially this time of year, I imagine.
00:01:06
Speaker
It's gorgeous. I just arrived last night, so I haven't spent a full day here yet, but it is absolutely beautiful in North Carolina. I've loved it since I was a kid.
00:01:17
Speaker
Yeah, I've not spent a lot of time there. I've driven through it several times. um Recently, about a year or two ago, I was in Damascus, Virginia for trail days, actually, which will we'll get into hiking in the outdoors. But spent a little time in Charlotte and driving around in North Carolina.
Daria's Journey to Social Work
00:01:35
Speaker
But why don't you tell our audience a little bit about who you are, about yourself?
00:01:41
Speaker
All right. um I am a clinical social worker. I've been doing that since I went back to school as a grown-up in my early 30s after raising my daughter.
00:01:54
Speaker
ah She started to get ready to go to college, and I thought, uh-oh, if I don't go back, I'm not going to beat her out of college. Right. So I started ah back to school when she was a junior, I think, in high school. And so... ah been a wonderful career. um I love working in this field because you get to help people all day, which is amazing. It's just a a wonderful thing to do. And the skill set that you get out of the education helps so much in your own life with problem solving and triaging and figuring out things. And if something comes up unexpected, you have the tools to figure out how to deal with it. And
00:02:38
Speaker
So um really a wonderful path that i kind of stumbled upon.
Travel and Flexibility in Daria's Work
00:02:44
Speaker
But um here I am. And I mostly am able to work remote since COVID happened. I do a lot of telehealth. And so since I can do telehealth, I can take my show on the road. And so I have traveled a lot more starting in 2020.
00:03:02
Speaker
I love that. had a quick look at your bio before we got on this call. I try not to do too much research because I like to hear from the individual, but i believe you are a fellow Texas Women's University graduate like myself.
00:03:16
Speaker
Yes, I am alumni. I have a couple of degrees from there. Well, three, I guess, actually. And then my master's in social work, though, came from UTA. TWU does offer an MSW program now, but they did not at the time that I went through. So I got my BSW at Texas Women's.
00:03:33
Speaker
And then I have an MBA and a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from TWU. And I taught at TWU for a couple of years and from 2006 to 2008. I was ah first an adjunct and then a visiting professor while they were looking for somebody permanent to take the position in the social work department. So I got to teach a bunch of social work classes, which was really cool.
00:03:56
Speaker
I love that. we are We immediately have a lot in common. I'm also a triple alum now at TWU. I've been junked there. I was a visiting professor and now working my way into a tenure track so ah assistant role there. So, yeah, it's that wonderful it's it's a ah very important place in my life, Texas Women's University.
00:04:18
Speaker
It is a wonderful school. I love that. A fellow pioneer. well One of the reasons I'm particularly excited to talk to you today is we both share, as many of our listeners will, an affection and a love for the outdoors. But before we get sort of into nature and things like that, yeah you're traveling. Where has that taken you to? What have been the highlights of, as you said, taking your show on the road?
00:04:42
Speaker
Well, this trip, I just got started a few days ago. I left on Friday morning. ah and went to Atlanta. Well, stopped in Little Rock briefly, but then i went to Atlanta to see some relatives for a couple of days and then ah made my way here yesterday. So I'm just getting started, but I'll be here for two months.
00:05:02
Speaker
um As we discussed, I'll be a babysitting a few chickens and a cat and house-sitting for my friends here. And that's going to give me an opportunity to do a lot of exploring around ah North Carolina. I'm about an hour east of Asheville, so I'll be spending some time over there and in Boone. And I want to go to Winston-Salem.
00:05:25
Speaker
and mean I've got play tickets next month in Asheville. Somewhere near Charlotte, I think. So I'll be out that way. And so I'm going to just do, you know, some looking around and exploring. And of course, hiking. I haven't even pulled up, you know, which trails. And I've done some before with these friends of mine that are here.
00:05:43
Speaker
But I'm going to find some more trails to get out on. And my dogs love to to do that kind of thing. So I'll be here for a couple of months. And then I'm heading up to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. I'm actually buying some land up there. And so I will um have that land by then. And so I'm going to go up and spend six weeks kind of Robinson Crusoe-ing it up there. not Not quite totally roughing it because the land is somewhat improved already.
00:06:08
Speaker
But working with a contractor to figure out ah what we're what we're going to do with it in coming years. And it's a unique and interesting opportunity. So I'm super excited about that. And I'll be doing a lot of hiking up there. So ah lots of hiking on my agenda the next few months.
00:06:24
Speaker
Wonderful. Well, a couple of quick thoughts. ah Boone, I drove through Boone, North Carolina two years ago, i think, on my way to the Appalachian trail Trail Days Festival. Man alive, that's a beautiful drive and a lovely town. Mm-hmm. It really, really was something special.
00:06:44
Speaker
And at some point, we're going to have to chit chat more. I've got visions and dreams of buying some land up north ah you know for the future where the weather's a little cooler.
00:06:55
Speaker
um Yes. You know, so that's ah i'm I'm quite envious. Happy to speak with you or anybody about that. I love real estate. my I come from a real estate family and I had a real estate license a long time ago that I never really used.
00:07:09
Speaker
But i I know markets across the country somewhat well because I'm i'm just a completely rabid reader, which is, I think, that the next step beyond avid reader, maybe two or three steps beyond avid reader.
00:07:22
Speaker
And so I will read anything that doesn't eat me first. I love it. I love it Well, we will talk. We will talk land and all of that at some point soon because that's... I'm happy to do so. I enjoy these things.
00:07:36
Speaker
Fascinating. um I'd like to sort of dive into your social work a little bit and how that relates to the outdoors. So in your experience as a social worker, what role can the outdoors play in healing, whether that's emotional, mental or even physical? How do those two worlds come together?
Outdoor Therapy in Social Work
00:07:56
Speaker
It really does seem to help people when they get up and get out. um It's not for everybody, I found. There are some people who just, you know, they're they're close to the idea of getting outside.
00:08:07
Speaker
And then ah sometimes, though, and starting with COVID, when we couldn't be inside, um I started doing some walk-in talks. ah with people that really wanted to meet in person. and you know, there was that year or so period where you really didn't want to meet anybody indoors. And so when people really wanted to meet in person, then we would do some walk and talks. And then a few years ago, i put together a little ah along with it. ah And she was an LMSW who is working on her hours or supervision hours. And so together we, we put together a, it was maybe a three session um ah kind of hike and talk for young adults who were trying to figure out um what they were going to do next in life. You know, they had finished high school, but they weren't really sure what the next next steps were. And so we had a three, I think that joined us that were maybe 18 to 22 or so. And, and we picked different places and mostly around Denton that, uh,
00:09:09
Speaker
We went and hiked and talked and you know, just to explored what options might look like. And so that's a, you know, when you're outdoors and you're talking about your problems, they step into perspective, I think, a little better and and in terms of the bigness of them. It retreats a little bit, you know, you're out with trees and lakes and, you know, it's pretty. And so things seem more manageable somehow and ideas seem more possible. And, you know, things that you you maybe thought you couldn't have accomplished. You know, maybe your mind is a little more open when you're talking about them while you're walking.
00:09:47
Speaker
I love that. I interviewed a lady called Amy Fraser who lives in Portland last year. And I believe she is a licensed therapist. I don't get my terms muddied here, but she spoke of very similar things. She now does hiking therapy where she takes, you know, and of course it's a choice. People can come into the office, a traditional setting or... um they can go for quarter mile, half mile, one mile walks, depending on the length of the session. And she spoke a lot about um the metaphors in nature and how she can use those to help people relate to the issues that they're having and work through them. um You know just watching nature become more dormant in the winter and then a rebirth, things like that. So sounds like even though it's slightly different fields,
00:10:36
Speaker
ah very similar, very similar experiences in the outdoors. Yeah, once we get the degree, especially the counseling degrees, we do very similar things with them after, and we can do the same things.
00:10:51
Speaker
um We just do them under a different license and with a slightly different ethical code and a slightly different perspective. And so social work, ah we like to look at people from the biopsychosocial perspective. And so...
00:11:06
Speaker
We're looking at the fact that, of course, we all have our biology that we come with, our genetics and you know what our current physical situation is, whether it's age or health or what it might be.
00:11:17
Speaker
But we also have a psychological perspective, which has to do with our personality and also our early childhoods. experiences, the things that really shaped us and formed
Parallels Between Social Work and Teaching
00:11:27
Speaker
us, and that can include trauma, of course.
00:11:29
Speaker
And then the social aspect, which is the environmental piece, and that's kind of everything else. you know Who are your friends? Where are you living? How do you get to work? What kind of work do you do? What kind of education do you have? Do you need more education? Do you need a way to get to work? um you know Is there somebody watching the children while you're trying to figure out going to work and you know things like that? And so biopsychosocial perspective. And then the other thing that social workers, and we we kind of hang our head on, a core tenant for us, is the client's right to self-determination.
00:12:03
Speaker
ah You know, that people are the experts on themselves and they ultimately will be able to make a decision that is best for them. And so it's a little different from some of the other fields in that we don't claim to be the expert. We claim to be walking alongside and helping to maybe explore different perspectives, to maybe think about possible outcomes that somebody you know, who isn't trained to think three steps down the chessboard, maybe, you know, they might need some help with that, or they might need some help looking at, you know, what a negative consequence might be of a particular decision.
00:12:38
Speaker
But ultimately, you know, we're very respectful of people's ability to know themselves and to make the decision that is best for them. Right. I love that. um Yeah, you're not so much telling people you need to go from A to B to C to D. You're helping guide them.
00:12:55
Speaker
And as you, I think you said, maybe said this one, it sort of empowers people to make these decisions. But you're there to steer and guide and help them look down down the path. I love that. I love that because yeah you're not removing the power from the individual.
00:13:11
Speaker
um yes The other thing that's important to social workers, I think if I can throw one more thing in, is we look at them from the strengths perspective. And so when I meet somebody and I am first doing an assessment and getting to know them, I'm tallying their internal strengths and their external strengths. You know, do they have resilience? Do they have a sunny attitude? Are they um very tenacious? Stubbornness can be a very positive thing.
00:13:41
Speaker
you know thing for people that they are going to be able to stick with something. You know you might need to get around a little hardheadedness to help open their mind to various ideas, but that they're probably, once they get on board with an idea, they're probably going to stick it out. And so you know we look at those strengths and then we look at areas of concern and we we um and try to figure out how can we use these strengths internal strengths and external strengths. Like, you know, maybe they have a house or they have a car or they have a supportive family member who's willing to help with education or, you know, those are external strengths. And so how do we use these strengths to address these areas of concern and to overcome them so that a client can live what they want as their best life? You know, how can they get to where they are going to be winning?
00:14:33
Speaker
And so that's a that's what makes social work so fun is, you know, we we start out with somebody who might be really struggling and not able to see any possibility. and And as humans, we're very hard on ourselves. You know, we internalize our failures. I did that. And we externalize our successes. i amm I'm only succeeding at something because of so-and-so that has nothing to do with me. And so helping people kind of adjust their lens about those things and seeing, you know, that amount of hard work and effort they put into the things that they have succeeded at and how, you know, maybe some of the things that they look at as failures, there were other things besides just their own inadequacies that contributed to those. And so then we can use all of that to kind of spur them into action, to use the strengths to make a life that is meaningful.
00:15:24
Speaker
I love that. i mean I think I can safely say the world of social work and education, ah which is is my bread and butter, they're not mutually exclusive. Yeah, there's is some definite crossover there. And a trend I've noticed over the last decade or so, a good thing, is that when a lot of teachers enter into the profession, they're often asked to do a strength finder's assessment, which I'm sure is something you are familiar with.
00:15:49
Speaker
and just trying to generate the good habits of focusing on on the strengths of the individual and not what they can't or are you know not a strength i don't say what they can't do but here's where the strengths are and how can we utilize those to help that individual become the best happiest most satisfied teacher they can be it's a very good thing and that has happened. um Because I know I've got things that I need to work on and struggle with, but I i can now say I've also got strengths in certain areas. And I build try to build my career on those rather than focusing on, I need to get better at this and better at that, because there's always going to be things.
00:16:30
Speaker
that I need to improve. um So why not just try and celebrate the things that I have managed to achieve and build on top of those. So yeah, some definite parallels, I think, between our worlds.
00:16:45
Speaker
Well, and also connecting to hiking, being in the moment that you're in. um You know, when we're worrying about the future or we're ruminating on things that have happened in the past, we can't really enjoy this moment.
00:17:00
Speaker
And so being able to be fully present and to live life as it happens rather than in the past or in the future. um That's quite a skill. I'm still working on that one myself.
00:17:12
Speaker
So. Absolutely. I had that conversation, a very similar conversation with the the author Savannah Schuring about a month ago. She's written a wonderful book about the AT. I'll recommend it to you after we're finished. Yeah. Oh, yes. that She hiked, she threw hike the ATE, but for her, and I ah may get some of the details wrong here, so I apologize to Savannah, but I think it was for her master's dissertation, she interviewed hikers about the why.
00:17:41
Speaker
Why are you on the trails? She wasn't asking about gear or miles or this or that. It was what is your purpose being out here? What drove you to be out here? And it's a book basically full of short stories. and But what we talked about was even getting out in nature, even going for, let's say, a three mile hike, you can be walking on the trail and still thinking, I need to get finished. I need to get back. I need to do this.
00:18:05
Speaker
So we discussed taking a five minute break halfway through that where you literally make yourself just turn all that off. for five minutes and just be turn off the podcast, turn off the music, put the phone down and just five minutes of nothing. Because we both found some common ground with, yeah, we can go for a hike, but we didn't mentally put ourselves in a place to get everything we could from it because the world is all consuming and work and and life can be so so busy. Yes.
00:18:38
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like something you could you could relate to in that way. Oh, certainly. Yes. It's, the it's wonderful getting outside and just being there in the day. it's a,
00:18:50
Speaker
And emptying your mind as much as possible. I'm a big thinker. I'm sure you probably are too. Yes. My brain is always working overtime, but it does slow a little when I'm when i'm out. you know And you have to pay attention if you bring dogs like I do or you know your surroundings in general. you know Where are you putting your feet and what's ahead on the trail and how much time do you have before you it gets dark or you need to turn around? or you know There's problem solving that goes on. so Absolutely. Yeah, you can't turn completely off. Indeed, that wouldn't be it wouldn't be safe.
00:19:24
Speaker
and But we've talked a lot about your enjoyment of
Daria's Outdoor Adventures and Revelations
00:19:26
Speaker
the outdoors. But if you wouldn't mind taking us back, where did this start? Is this something as a child you were encouraged to do and and did? Or did it come to you slightly later in life?
00:19:38
Speaker
So a little bit when I was a child, and my parents divorced when I was little. And my father, when we would spend weekends with him, he would sometimes take us out on bike trails or he had a boat. We would go out on the boat and be outdoors and sometimes camp overnight on an island on Lake Texoma something. And so that gave me a taste of it. My mother was very not into those kinds of things. And so most of the time when I was with my mother, i didn't have any of those kinds of experiences and um As a lot of us social workers do, I came through a a relatively difficult ah childhood experience. And so when I was 15, was kind of in and out of placements. And one of the places I spent several months was wilderness camp.
00:20:20
Speaker
And I lived outdoors for a few months in this wilderness camp setting. And so I think that was what really introduced me to the outdoors. And I went in professing to hate it. And, you know, I didn't want to do this. And, you know, I was kind of an oppositional defiance. teenager as somebody who was raised as I was would be.
00:20:40
Speaker
and so um I didn't fully embrace or enjoy it, but it definitely gave me some skills and gave me some exposure and helped me understand a little better about how these things work.
00:20:53
Speaker
And then I didn't crop up very much again, other than um I was a bike rider, still am a little bit, and an inline skater, because I ice skated as a kid. So I was inline skating and street skating. And so that took me outside. um I started that around 2004, I guess, about 20 years ago, doing a lot of street skating with a group in Dallas. and that kind of reintroduced me a little bit to the idea of, you know, just being outside and doing things outside. And And then um I bought this little house near Denton in Shady Shores, and it was out in the woods by the lake.
00:21:33
Speaker
And there were woods right there, and I knew there were, and I was kind of scared to go out in them by myself. And so I posted an ad on Craigslist. This would have been in the fall of 2007, maybe early 2008. And I said, is there anybody that lives around Shady Shores that would want to go hiking in these these woods around my house that I'm scared to go into on my own. And that one person responded and it turns out he, ah he was in the movie born on the 4th of July. And he was the guy that, that Tom Cruise killed.
00:22:07
Speaker
ah Michael Gully. and Usually can remember his last name. I must be a little nervous. I can't think of it right now. But Compotaro, Mike Compotaro. And so he also lived in Shady Shores at the time. And he responded to my ad and he said, I would be up for going out in the woods. And so so we went out in the woods several times and went walking around. He told me the whole story about how he came to be selected to be in Born on the Fourth of July and you know how he ended up. I mean, he was He was kind of the co-star, but of course he got killed and written out very early. And then there was a child version of him because I guess the movie did flashbacks. I've never seen the movie, but the movie did flashbacks to their childhood because Tom Cruise and and Mike's role, they were best friends growing up.
00:22:53
Speaker
ah So there were flashbacks to their childhood together before they ended up in Vietnam and and you know Mike's role, ah Mike's character got killed. um But I got to hear that whole story and I was teaching at TWU at the time and so you know we talked about that. and I was still um taking more classes and learning more things. And we talked about that. And and the time would just speed by. you know we' We'd go for these miles long walks. And it seemed like just moments when you know hours would pass. and And that really kind of awakened me. and then i um
00:23:29
Speaker
I'm a voracious reader, as I mentioned. And so somewhere along the way, I found a list of um apps that told you about where hikes were. And so i downloaded one of these apps and I started noticing, oh my gosh, there are so many hikes even around the Denton area that I had no idea were there.
00:23:49
Speaker
And so that got me more interested in local hiking. And then in my travels, I was able to discover um some really amazing trails that I never would have found. And that that got me really interested. And I even did a little bit of backpacking. and I haven't done that in a few years. I'm hoping I'm still young enough that I'll I'll do some backpacking again.
00:24:13
Speaker
But I discovered Eagle Rock Loop in Arkansas, which is like a three-day hike that you park somewhere and then you just go around the loop. And there's lots of stream crossings. And you have to be ah very careful about if there's recent rains, ah one or two of those crossings at least can be quite dangerous. And so you have to really be aware of you know what's going on with the water and the weather and an Eagle Rock Loop.
00:24:40
Speaker
And then i was started training for a hike on the island of Kauai. I was on Kauai and i found out about ah the Kalalau Trail, which is considered one of the 10 most extreme hikes in the world and and dangerous. It's a dangerous hike and it requires quite a bit of technical ability.
00:25:01
Speaker
And so I only did the first two miles of it when I stumbled upon it when I was on Kauai, but I immediately vowed the next time we went to Kauai, I would do more of it. And so to prepare for that, um that was when I started doing Eagle Rock Loop.
00:25:17
Speaker
And then I also was in Colorado and I found um Fancy Lake. and the Missouri lakes, there's two trails that go up mountains and the parking lots are just 500 feet from each other. And so you can start at the bottom of one, go up, and then you go through the pass. It's called Fancy Pass and it's quite difficult to make it through that pass. But then you can go down on the other side and you end up in the other parking lot, but you know you're literally two more minutes walking to get to your car. right And so it's ah a beautiful way to train for climbing mountains and, you know, getting gaining a lot of elevation and things like that. And so that's ah the app helped me discover that particular hike. And I've now done that one several times, including one overnight, which was quite memorable because the storm blew in.
00:26:07
Speaker
and we were camped above the tree line and that's the coldest I've ever been in my life and possibly the closest to death. And that was a rough, uncomfortable night. But ah you survive these kinds of things and not only do you learn skills, but you also gain confidence and and you you know you know that you can get yourself through things and and you learn about preparation for next time so you don't end up in a storm above the tree line by accident. Absolutely. And I do think you're right. These lessons you stay with you. I've gotten lost on trails a couple of times. One particularly memorable was i stumbled into where they had done a prescribed burn and all the trail markers had gone.
00:26:52
Speaker
um i i saw there was a prescribed burn and the short story is i saw somebody coming the other way and he said oh it's fine it's actually fine the trail is really untouched no problem at all i got several miles in and realized that that really wasn't the case at all and there was still lots of smoldering trees and it was really quite hot and getting late and i'd lost the trail completely in the same Houston forest it was the Lone Star Trail um long story short i had to go having to go through the woods thankfully I had one bars reception and saw that there was a small county road several hundred yards through the forest so it kind of stumbled through the forest got out to the county road and of all things I said this would be a short story um
00:27:41
Speaker
a sheriff, a local sheriff happened to be coming down the road, was very skeptical, we'll say that, about what I was doing out there because they had discovered some land where people were hiding stolen travel trailers.
00:27:54
Speaker
And so there was like there was guns drawn, there was all sorts. That's quite a hiking adventure. You don't sign up for all that when you go hiking. and No, and not at all. They couldn't have been nicer in the end once they established I was nothing to do with that and actually gave me ride to the campsite that I was aiming for. um Couldn't have been nicer, gentlemen.
00:28:20
Speaker
Other than the guns drawn, your story brings to mind. a When I go to do the Kalalau Trail, i usually, a couple days before I take on the Kalalau, I do the Hanakapiai, which takes you two miles down the Kalalau, but then you go up. And you climb up to this beautiful waterfall.
00:28:39
Speaker
And there was a day, it's been, i don't know, close to 10 years ago, but ah my hiking partner and I were dropped off very early in the morning at the trailhead, which is ah near Ka Beach, at the end of the trail on or the end of the road Kauai, if you go all the way around on the north side.
00:28:59
Speaker
And there was a little bit of caution tape that was like laying on the ground, but we just walked over it and continued on and went all the way up to the waterfall. And when we got up there, there were a couple of other...
00:29:13
Speaker
couples or maybe one small group up there and they were leaving pretty shortly after we got there and we were the last ones to leave. And as we were coming down, only one more couple came up, ah you know, heading towards the falls. And it seemed unusual compared to previous visits where you see a lot of people on the trails because this is a highly touristed part of Kauai.
00:29:35
Speaker
And ah the people asked, you know, how much further to the waterfall? And we told them and So then we kept going down and as we got down to Hanakapiai Beach, which is where you turn and you have two more miles to get out um on the Kalalau, there was a park ranger waiting and he said, is there anyone else behind you? And we said, well, there's this one couple that we passed. They were still heading up to the falls. And he said, you know, how long ago did you see them? And, you know, kind of tried to establish exactly where they might be.
00:30:05
Speaker
And then he said, there's a fire. um There were some Hawaiians doing a ceremony, a traditional ceremony. And as part of that, they throw ah fla flaming torches into the water. And apparently one didn't make it into the water and it started a fire on a ridge and it was moving in towards the trail. And so they had closed the trail and they were trying to make sure everybody was off of it.
00:30:34
Speaker
And as we continued this two miles, I mean, and it's a very difficult two miles. It you know sounds like our two miles will be out in an hour, but it is quite an arduous up and down and it's very humid. and And as we kept progressing along these two miles, it got smokier and smokier. And we saw the helicopters with these big ah baskets and they were going down into the ocean and the basket was scooping up water and then they were flying off.
00:31:00
Speaker
to go dump it on the fire. And there were two helicopters that just kept going back and forth and miss smoke. And then we got to the park and normally there are people there and cars and There was nothing we had to just walk out only to catch a ride from somebody at that point to go a little further down the road because there's no cell service. So you try to get to where there's cell service so you can call your friend to come pick you up or whatever. And there was nobody to hitch a ride with. And so we just were walking along the road. And then Ember actually ah burned my friend's shirt and burned a hole in it. and
00:31:35
Speaker
And finally we got through and parked the smoky part and to where there were cars. And then we were able to hitch a ride. Yeah. get the rest of the way away. But turns out that caution tape, I guess they had put it up, but somebody had broken it and laid it on the ground before we got there. So we didn't realize that it meant the trail was closed. So we spent the whole day on a closed trail quite by accident. Goodness, we have very similar experience. With retrospect, I think there was a a a ah barrier up, but had blown down and was face down. So I didn't think anything of it. With hindsight, I should have thought about it. But yes, you know the the caution tape could have saved that could just saved the day if yeah if you had ah seen it.
00:32:20
Speaker
um As we kind of come round to the end of this interview, I've got three questions I would love to ask you.
Reflections on Success and Influential Books
00:32:26
Speaker
um Again, kind of thinking about social work and the outdoors, how has your definition of success changed throughout the years, if indeed it has? Oh, wow. Wow.
00:32:40
Speaker
You know, i live so much in the moment. it is hard to even think back to what my definition of success was a long time ago, but it definitely has changed and continues to change. um If you had told me 10 20 years ago that I would be seriously buying a small campground in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan And looking at spending my summers there, I would have told you you were crazy. And now this is the thing that I am just the most excited about. you know, this is going to be such a wonderful um adventure these next 10 years or so. um So to me, I think now today, success is more on being content moment by moment by moment.
00:33:29
Speaker
And um I love compounded wins. I like to say that social workers love win-wins. And i I love wins that come compound um um upon themselves. um My father was a very successful businessman, and I think money was far more important to him.
00:33:46
Speaker
than maybe it should have been in terms of priorities. But he did like to talk about compounded interests and he liked the idea of his money earning money without him having to do anything for it. And and I think about that, but in terms of experiences and interactions with others. um You know, how can we we all win and continue to win and build on these wins and, you know, with without having to work really hard against um the land or the place that we are or the time that we're in? You know, how can we flow with it and roll with it, but make it um successful in in all ways?
00:34:26
Speaker
I love that. I've never really thought about compounded interest outside of money. but That's a lovely analogy and one that I'll carry with me. um Yeah, whether it's work or friendships or family.
00:34:40
Speaker
i love that, the thought of that. i'm going to be thinking about that today. um Something else I did want to ask you, you mentioned before how much you love to read. There may be more than one, but what may might be the first one that comes to mind? A book that has been particularly impactful on your life.
00:35:02
Speaker
Wow, a book that has been particularly impactful on my life. yeah always makes my guests pause, that one. there's ah this yes
00:35:19
Speaker
so One that comes to mind, um and it's an odd one it's from 20 or so years ago, house of Leaves.
00:35:31
Speaker
Okay, I've never heard of House of Leaves. it It was written by, ah there's a singer Poe and it was her brother. I think his name is Daniel. I can't remember his last name. And she wrote a soundtrack that accompanied it. But it was basically, and I think what I loved so much about it, it was a very difficult read, but what I loved so much about it is it opened my mind to possibilities that i had never occurred to me before. And it it's basically a book about a house that was slightly larger on the inside than it was
00:36:04
Speaker
on the outside. and it turned out there was a cave that was inside of a closet. And then it was what happened in that cave and how that cave was explored and discovered. And and ah it's it's one of those a little bit choose your own adventure books where certain things you have to flip to other pages and you have to, it's very, it's a hard read, but it it was a fascinating idea and that somebody was out writing something like that and thinking like that. And this was at the time that I was just starting to get my education. And so my mind was being opened
00:36:40
Speaker
ah to so many different possibilities, so many different ways. And so that one, I think, was a big game changer. And I'll tell you, in in the honor of hiking, I have to throw in one more. There's a book, it was a fiction book, maybe from 25 or 30 years ago, even, ah called The Bear Went Over the Mountain.
00:36:58
Speaker
And it was about a bear who was in the woods. I think he was in the Maine woods. and he stumbled across a manuscript that a writer had left. It was in a briefcase. then If I recall right, the writer was disgusted by the manuscript and he finally just tossed it in the bushes and you know left. and and The bear found it and read it and thought it was relatively good and felt like he could probably do something with it. and So he brought it to Manhattan.
00:37:26
Speaker
And became an overnight author sensation that, you know, he only spoke in grunts and he was kind of a big guy in a secondhand suit. And, you know, people knew him as this hairy, quiet, weird author. But, uh.
00:37:41
Speaker
He became very successful. And that was another one I loved because it was so whimsical. And, you know, it it involved being in the outdoors and and writing and, you know had a lot of components of things I really liked.
00:37:52
Speaker
That's tremendously interesting. I'm going going to have to. have
Dream Hiking Companion: Barack Obama
00:37:57
Speaker
to look that up. Speaking of being in the outdoors, I do like to ask my guests if you could go hiking for a day with anybody in the world. This could be somebody you know, somebody you don't, famous, not famous, somebody from history, dead, alive, anybody. You could go for a day hike on the AT there in beautiful North Carolina for a day and pick their brains, ask them anything. Who do you think you would like to go hiking with?
00:38:26
Speaker
Barack Obama. that Not the first guest to say that. I think that's ah a great answer. And if you wouldn't mind elaborating a little bit as to why.
00:38:39
Speaker
Because of the way things were and the animosity and the anger. and the the fighting against him, he didn't get the chance, I feel like, to do the things that he could have done and that he tried to do. um And I i feel like he he had such a ah sense of needing to not make any mistakes and to set an absolute example and, you know, to
00:39:09
Speaker
prove that as an African-American and person of color, he was up to this task of leading this great nation. And um he also was so collaborative. And i i see in him a lot of things that I see in myself.
00:39:24
Speaker
And um you know, so much of what he did, it's got to be so hard for him to see like what's happening today, for example. And, and I just, I would love to listen to him talk and to, to just hear the, the things that he thinks about, you know, what all has happened and what he wanted to do and how things could be, or, you know, what, what he thinks is going to happen from now. And um I just, I feel like that's just a marvelous, marvelously marvelously um untapped resource in this country that we were given something that could have been so amazing.
00:40:05
Speaker
And, um and part of it was the machine too, that, you know, and, And there were, you know, even within his own party, obviously, career politicians that wanted to use anything they could to manipulate themselves to a ah better place. And so, you know, so many um just crazy things moved into into place during that time. And I just I would love to spend a day out in the world with him, hearing him talk about himself and his life and, no we you know, what
00:40:39
Speaker
what has become of all of this and what happened back then and i don't know it would just be so fascinating um and i you know i would tell michelle i don't have any designs on her husband i just want to you know hear what he has to say and right she could come along it would be wonderful to have her there too there you go that they they could both come on the hike yeah Yes, you said one person, but i I would love to have them both. I think that's a lovely, lovely thing.
00:41:08
Speaker
Well, I cannot thank
Closing and Podcast Invitation
00:41:10
Speaker
you enough, Daria. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for joining me this week on this episode of the Outdoorsy Educator podcast. Thank you so much, Alistair.
00:41:22
Speaker
Thank you again to this week's guest and I hope today's episode was as enjoyable for you as it was for me and perhaps even inspired your next adventure. If you did enjoy the show, please be sure to subscribe, leave a review or follow us wherever you get your podcasts. You can find more information at theoutdoorsyeducator.com or follow us on Instagram, TikTok or Facebook. Until next time, thank you so much for listening to The Outdoorsy Educator Podcast.