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Savannah Schuring
27 Plays2 days ago
Join Alasdair as he talks to Savannah Schuring about her new book, Between The Miles, as she explores the WHY of thru hiking. This conversation takes us beyond the miles and into the minds of those who decided to hike the Appalachian Trail.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Appalachian Trail
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Outdoorsy Educator podcast. On today's very special episode, we take you beyond trail markers and into the quiet, complicated spaces between the footsteps.
Hiker's Internal Journeys
00:00:15
Speaker
As many of you will know, the Appalachian Trail stretches for more than 2,000 miles from Georgia to Maine. For many it's a physical challenge, but for others it's a pilgrimage.
00:00:26
Speaker
But what happens internally in the thoughts, doubts, revelations and transformations that unfold along the way?
Savannah Shuring's Book 'Between the Miles'
00:00:36
Speaker
Today's guest, Savannah Shuring, explores exactly that in her book Between the Miles.
00:00:42
Speaker
Rather than simply recounting miles walked or mountains climbed, Savannah dives into the psychological and emotional landscapes of Appalachian Trail through hikers.
00:00:53
Speaker
The motivations that push them forward, the identities they shed, and the meaning they search for somewhere between Springer Mountain and Katahdin. Today, we'll talk about endurance, solitude, reinvention, and what it means to explore ourselves between the miles.
Author's Background and Transition
00:01:12
Speaker
I hope you enjoy our conversation.
00:01:20
Speaker
And on this week's episode of the Outdoorsy Educator podcast, we have Savannah Shuring. Savannah, how are you today? I'm dandy. Thanks for having me. Oh, ah you're more than welcome. I came across you through your book, which we will talk plenty about, and then had a little deep dive through your website. We've got a lot of things, lot of similar interests and things in common. But I'd love for you to, if you wouldn't mind, just to introduce yourself to our audience.
00:01:45
Speaker
I am an author and educator. I was a teacher for 10 years. And after that, I decided to turn my thesis into a book, which I never thought I would do.
00:01:57
Speaker
And ah so now i I do public speaking across the country on, I used to teach how to plan long distance hikes and I still do a little bit, but not as
Emotional Reflections on Hiking
00:02:07
Speaker
much. But now it's mostly what I learned from my experience on the trails, what I learned from all my interviews of hikers and how we can apply what I learned to everyday life. So it's universal topics, in my opinion. So i like to go around and talk about that. And then i write these books on all these hikers that I've interviewed. I love it. And we're going to dive into that because it's something that I'm i'm just naturally drawn to. I've read you know many a hiking book. And I've also interviewed many people um who've gone on incredible trips and have seen amazing things. But the they constant thread throughout all of these things is the people.
00:02:50
Speaker
um i was I spoke to a lady recently who does it runs the Solo Female Travel Network, and they've taken it taken ah solo women all over the world. i mean, Machu Picchu, the pyramids, you name it. And she even agreed when they survey people that have been on their trips, what was your favorite thing? It was the community. It was the people. And so I know that you obviously have similar feelings on that. And I'm excited to dive into that.
00:03:17
Speaker
I was reading on your website, you've hiked a couple of trails.
Backpacking Challenges and Lessons
00:03:21
Speaker
You've hiked many trails, but there's a couple I'd like to ask you about. Just a couple. We've both done the Lone Star Trail, which. Oh, yes. Yeah, I did that a couple of years Done no one ever.
00:03:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's, a you know, it's, again, we've we talked before and we got on the air about Texas and landscape and scenery. The Lone Star Trail gives a good a good effort. You know, i I thought it was very good for learning if you are built for this or learning if it's what you want to do.
00:03:49
Speaker
um You know, I really enjoyed it. Nothing challenging, but that's not what I was looking for that week. the grand oh sorry the teton crest trail that is a bucket list item for me um i'm very lucky as as you are to have seen lots of amazing scenery gone lots of amazing places jenny lake is always top of the list for me of just stunningly beautiful places and and i've watched a little bit of your youtube videos but i didn't i haven't seen any i don't know if you made any on the teton crest trail but could you tell me a little bit about that hike
00:04:24
Speaker
ah That was my first big backpacking trip besides my NOLS course. And so it wasn't super long. It was less than a week. You know, that trail is only 40 miles, I think. But...
00:04:35
Speaker
Man, yeah, once I did that, because I was a climber before that. And once I did that trail, I was like, maybe we should try this for a while. And not that I didn't want to try to climb in anymore, but it was just different. It know of a different challenge. It was a different experience. you're You're going all day, you know, if you if you forget your ropes or, you know.
00:04:56
Speaker
That's a poor example because you would never do that. But if you forget something pertinent for climbing, it's usually in your car. ah But for backpacking, it was quite different because if you forget it, you know you can't really go back.
00:05:07
Speaker
And so it's not really, there's not always an easy out. And so it was a little bit more, okay, how self-sufficient can I be? And I'm i'm really out here. you know There's people around, but I'm out here. And so it was just a different feeling. And Yeah, that was one of my favorite. I did it twice because I did it also when I hiked the CDT. I got off trail and went to the Tetons and did it again just because it means so
Savannah's Personal Appalachian Trail Experience
00:05:31
Speaker
much to me. I cried finishing that trail when I did it the second time. I just, I love, that's my favorite place.
00:05:37
Speaker
Yeah, and so it's highly beautiful. highly recommend it. It is aptly on your bucket list. Yes, um it's been, oh probably 15 years ago when I went to the Tetons yeah and there's just something about it. I went to yellowstone Yellowstone, did all the touristy things, but the Tetons, I don't know what it is. can't put my finger on it, but it is, i think, the most beautiful place I've ever been to in the world.
00:06:02
Speaker
Did you hike up to Inspiration Point? I didn't. and but but My daughters were little and things like this. It was a different yeah a different kind of trip at the time. um but it's always quite nice to leave somewhere with a huge desire to go back. And I want to do that next time. For sure.
00:06:20
Speaker
And yeah, that's very much up there. But you've done, are you triple crowner? I believe. Yes. Yes, I thought you are. Yes. The AT, the granddaddy of all trails, as Bill Bryson said, when did you do that? Has that been a long time ago? 2018. It was a long time ago, in my opinion, yeah, long time ago. Well, you've done a lot since then. Well, yeah, it just feels like, you know, I was so young comparatively, know, that my first big trail. I'd done the long trail and Centennial and Lone Star, but those are, you know, shakedown hikes in comparison. And so yeah i love the long trail. It's one of my favorites. But, you know, the AT was I was not used to that long of a trip. And so, yeah, I didn't really know what I was doing. I made all the spreadsheets and I knew what I was doing, planning preparation because you can you can research all day. But being out there.
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing. Right. But you made it. You did. You that you had to. you yeah Yeah, we did it. I love it. And then it kind of segues into what I think we'll talk about quite a bit today. I've done bits and pieces of the AT and a year and a half ago I did.
00:07:33
Speaker
all of the new almost all of the New Jersey section. And I was hiking through and I sat down, was a really nice view, sat down to have my lunch. And for absolutely no reason, I almost felt like crying.
00:07:44
Speaker
Like just something, you know, I was taking a week off of work and just so going solo. And there's something about being on the trail that that brings out some emotions in people.
00:07:57
Speaker
And you talked- Do you think you, that was more about just- The moment of reaching your limitations or just the scenery or just not having to worry about stresses of work or what do you think that
From Thesis to Published Book
00:08:11
Speaker
was for you?
00:08:11
Speaker
I feel it was probably the second two things um because it was not a particularly strenuous part and I was you know halfway through a day in the middle of the week. With reflection, think about that moment quite a bit and with reflection, I still don't really know, but I do wonder how much stuff we just all carry bottled up day to day to day. And then suddenly, all I was worried about was really nothing. It was just getting to the camp five miles away. Exactly. that was basic six That's it. There was nothing else I had to worry about that day. And perhaps that allowed me to feel some emotions that just on a day to day basis.
00:08:51
Speaker
And I say keep bottled up like that's a really negative thing. But, you know, we're just occupied with life. Yeah. So there was nothing particularly deep on my mind. I think it was a combination of the beauty and nothing getting in the way of it. Yeah, I love that. That's great story. Yeah, that really stuck with me. And I think about that a lot. And that's why I was drawn to your book. um because i love reading ah about the mechanics of hiking. It's interesting to me, but the why and what people learn and discover about themselves, um just it just something that I find is is fascinating.
00:09:28
Speaker
Where did the idea for your book come from? I know it came through your thesis, but why was this area of humanity almost particularly ah in, sorry, the words escape me, you were drawn to it.
00:09:41
Speaker
It's okay. Words are hard. I get it all the time. Oh, yeah. um Yeah. So I was first going to interview Long distance runners. So ultra runners. I used to do a lot of long distance running.
00:09:56
Speaker
And for some reason, I just, I actually started writing my thesis on that, but I just changed at the last minute to through hikers because i had started through hiking a little bit. Like I said, I did those first few trails that were small, but still significant to me. They were just an easier version of an ultra marathon just because i have a really hard time running the long distances with my knee genetic position.
00:10:23
Speaker
And so i just felt since I was doing so well with the long distance hiking and enjoying it, why not check out these hikers and see what that's about? So it was really just picking a topic that interested me.
00:10:39
Speaker
And I'm very curious person innately. And so, wow, I get to go ask other people questions and get inside their minds. That's let's do it. I love it. I love it. And you talked in your in your thesis a little bit about autonomy, but it was self-reflection I thought was really important because it does when you're on the trail camping, wherever you might be, and maybe
Overcoming Writing Challenges
00:11:01
Speaker
ultra runners and people in other walks of life do this too, but being out on the trail really does give you time for self-reflection, figuring things out with all of those, um without all of those distractions.
00:11:14
Speaker
For sure. um I must ask you because I'll forget. so I've just noticed I've written this down. Snazzy Cat, your trail name. There's always ah a fun little story behind a trail name. And I would love to find out the story behind yours.
00:11:29
Speaker
It was on the CDT and... and People would ask me how I'm doing, and I often said snazzy. And then it was also one person that i was hiking with for a day or two said I was curious like a cat because I was asking so many questions.
00:11:45
Speaker
And then just for fun in town, i would like scratch on at someone's door, like a hotel room door to get their attention. Or if someone made a joke or we were like just reaching the end of our rope, I would hiss.
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah. you know like and So just a couple mannerisms that I find funny. And so it just became Sassy Cat. I love it. And as we talked about before we started recording, I love the television show Friends and do a ah Friends podcast off on the side.
00:12:12
Speaker
As soon as I saw Snazzy Cat, I don't know if you're familiar with the show, but there's ah a famous song called Smelly Cat. And now if i see Snazzy Cat, I see it's now in the in the cadence of Smelly Cat from the show. Well, I'm going to say that's a good thing, even though I haven't seen that scene. I'm guessing Phoebe sings that.
00:12:29
Speaker
It's Feeb, one of her, her main guests with her guitar. by the name. I can tell. Yes. yes Very much. I've seen like two episodes of that show. I need to watch that. Yes. So if I ever see you if we ever bump into each other on the trail, you'll notice me because I'll start singing snazzy cat in the the rhythm of smelly cat. Yep. Let you know. I need to learn that song so I can turn around and start singing it with you.
00:12:49
Speaker
There you go. I love it. Now you wrote your thesis and most people who do a thesis, a dissertation, a big paper like that, they're done with it. They don't want to see it again. But you turned around and and turned it into a book, which for an audio podcast, this doesn't do anything, but I have it right here with me. What was the, I feel lots of people have a book in their mind. I'd like to write a book one day. You did it. What was that like for you?
00:13:16
Speaker
So, I sometimes joke to people who have finished a book that they're in the 1% because only 1% of the population has written and finished a book. So probably the only time I'll be in the 1%. And so, so um yeah, it was never a goal to write it. i i just did the thesis.
00:13:37
Speaker
It was passion project in grad school, but it was extremely difficult for me. i didn't really know what I was doing. i needed a lot of guidance. I'd never written a thesis before. And then when I finished grad school, I didn't start the book until 2021. That was when I finished my last nine to five or left my last nine to five.
00:13:56
Speaker
And so I left, I was the director of outdoor recreation at the university of Illinois. That was my last nine to five. And so I left that schlepped all my stuff back to Texas, which is where I'm originally from.
00:14:08
Speaker
And I did the Pacific Northwest trail to kind of clear my head, which debatable on whether I did that because that was a difficult trail for me. and Right. um But and then I just decided to off and on start doing the book. And it was very part time.
00:14:23
Speaker
And the only reason I did is because I felt like I was sitting on a gold mine. Not that what I had written was exquisite, but the information because no one had done it. There's a first of its kind. And I was extremely proud of it as it was just sitting there. And so I was like, even if a few people read this, I just I need to get it out there.
00:14:41
Speaker
And so it just it just happened, honestly. I never thought I would be writing a book. I alwaysll always say, like, I'm a teacher i'm or I'm an educator. I'm not an author, but now I am.
00:14:52
Speaker
And so I have to change my lexicon. But... ah The process was part-time at first. you know I would ride a little bit and then I would go hike, i don't know, the CDT or something. So it wasn't full-time until the last two, two and a half years.
00:15:08
Speaker
And yeah, it was a huge learning curve, but i feel a lot more competent now in it. And if you look, which I won't show you right now, but if you ever looked at the very first draft of the book,
00:15:25
Speaker
Compared to the final draft, I always say it looks like a fifth grader wrote it That's how far I came because it went through i went through 33 drafts or iterations and Not everybody does that or needs to do that but I just felt so much improvement every time and it was a long arduous process, but it was very fulfilling. I love doing it I don't know, you know, I wasn't competent about my writing at first I'm more competent now, but I feel like I have so much more to learn and I have the ropes on it now. You know, you're about at anything when you first do course, yes. And so, imposter syndrome was there. It was real. But now it's like, okay, let's see what else we got. Because I still have the same research from the Pacific Crest Trail, the Pacific Northwest Trail, and the Continental Divide Trail. So, you know, there's a possibility of of doing three more, but we'll see how it goes.
00:16:17
Speaker
And that was going to be my next question. If you kind of have the, is it, isn't would you have the author bug or is it more you have this this information you just want to get out into the world?
00:16:28
Speaker
I don't have the author bug, I don't think. I think it's more of I have this good information that's just sitting there on my phone and in my laptop. And ah I'm sure there's someone else out there that is as curious as I am about what hikers are thinking. Because even in the social sciences, we haven't looked at how motivations change or why they change. It's just, why are you doing this hike? Why are you doing this run? Or what what brought you here, but we're not looking at what is different about your motivations at the at the end from the beginning.
00:16:59
Speaker
And so that's what I find fascinating. I also dive, and that's what I was originally just going to talk about, but then my, it went from motivation and how it evolves. And then I added in adversity and how we overcome it and also the role and power of community on the trail. And so,
00:17:18
Speaker
Motivation started as the foreground and it didn't necessarily move to the background, but I added those two other concepts. And I also talk about things like confidence and you know identity, but those are the main three.
00:17:31
Speaker
And so it kind of shaped even my understanding because I thought it would just be all about motivation, but come to find these other two aspects share a role and they all kind of play off of each other.
00:17:42
Speaker
I was going to ask you how your perspective shifted because had assumed you, like many of these sorts of projects, you go in thinking one thing and it comes out a little different. that sounds yeah Yes. Now, when I was thinking as I was looking, i've I've not read your book, I'm trying to be disciplined. Again, we talked to this before we started
Openness of Hiker's Stories
00:18:01
Speaker
recording. him writing my dissertation and almost at the end and and putin I've got a little pile of books to read this is at the top the list. That's book its own right. Right exactly so as soon as I'm done i get to get to start reading for pleasure again. Yes I completely understand that notion. You have been there. You've been there That's what I'm doing now. I can finally read for pleasure. Right. it's It feels like a foreign concept at the moment, but almost there.
00:18:28
Speaker
um I was curious, though, as I've kind of of i' leafed through the book just to get a flavor of it, of course. And I was curious as to how receptive people were to talking to you.
00:18:40
Speaker
um Because that but I've been to trail days, both in Virginia and up in Oregon. I've walked bits of many trails and people seem very friendly and outgoing, but i was curious when, how they reacted to you asking questions.
00:18:55
Speaker
Very well. um I don't know. I've said this before. I don't know if it was just me or which I think my ego wants to say it's just me, but my brain knows it's, it's probably just the nature of the trail.
00:19:08
Speaker
And it seemed like people were more open, not everyone, but I think the majority, at least in my experience. And, you know, and I came at it quite, uh,
00:19:20
Speaker
quite kindly as much as I could. And if someone seems like they just were having a day or they just didn't want to talk, I'm pretty receptive to that. And so ah you usually just tell people one sentence about what I'm researching and it's not identifiable.
00:19:38
Speaker
If you're interested, let's do it. If not, I completely understand. And so I kind of developed, you know, a short little pitch and it was usually in town. Sometimes it was on the trail.
00:19:49
Speaker
But I find it was more, it was a little easier when people were stationary in town. But yeah, I had military veterans telling me prisoner story and just, I was extremely surprised because i have other veteran friends at home and,
00:20:04
Speaker
I don't really hear stuff like that. I think right that's reserved for a specific friend or you know person that you've experienced a different part of life with. And so I was surprised to get some of those stories.
00:20:17
Speaker
ah But everyone I felt like was pretty open for the most part. There were some younger hikers that might not have had the verbiage But, you know, they did their best and I try to have follow up questions if it wasn't expounded upon. But yeah, for the most part, I think everyone was really receptive. Everyone's really kind. One time I left a note at someone's door at a little motel and I was like, hey, I can tell by your shoes that you're a hiker. If you... are interested in this type of interview. i'm at room this, is this, this.
00:20:47
Speaker
And he knocked on my door. you know it's just it was interesting in how all that happened. But yeah, they're very receptive. They were very open. They were very warm. They wanted to get their story out.
00:20:58
Speaker
And so I think I was the conduit and a way for them to have any someone else hear their story. Because otherwise, it's just their own friends. I don't know, whatever they use, social media, blog, whatever. But you know, I asked questions, i think might've been circling their head, but maybe I was able to give a name or specify it in a way that they were circling, but kind of weren't sure. And so sometimes we don't really understand an experience until we're reflecting upon it. I think you touched on that earlier, that reflection.
00:21:30
Speaker
And so sometimes people were doing that and they had succinct answers. And sometimes it was me kind of lightly pulling those out with my questions. But either way, yeah, they were very open.
00:21:42
Speaker
ah um I now have so many thoughts rattling around my head. Like if you'd interviewed people, these same people, six months after the they'd been on the trail, I wonder if going back into quote unquote, the real world would have made them more closed off just naturally. But something about being on the trail allowed them to be open. And you said you were kind of the conduit for getting this story out.
00:22:05
Speaker
who I think it would depend on the person because I've interviewed people post hike before, not six months. I think that's a little long for me, but I do understand what you're saying. And I think if it's someone they know that has through hiked, at least in my experience, if they know you've through hiked or they've know you from the trail or something like they know you have that commonality.
00:22:24
Speaker
and think it's easier for them to open up. But if it was just a journalist or a random interviewer that had never hiked or through hiked, I think that's a different level of openness, at least in my perception.
00:22:40
Speaker
I would agree with you. There's some commonality and it's, yeah, I think once you've established that, it would be easier to open up even if it's post-trail. and In your book, I'm not going to ask you for a favorite story.
00:22:54
Speaker
You know, I don't think that'd be fair. But could you choose one that was perhaps the most impactful to you personally? I know there won't be one, just one of them. Yes, I get asked lot. I have a hard time with like most or favorite or best. Yes. Yeah, there's no, yeah.
Powerful Hiker Stories
00:23:10
Speaker
I'll just say there was, there were so many different experiences. There was an 18 year old that came to the trail and was ready to die by suicide. That really affected me. And he met his trail family and he decided he not only wanted to live and, but complete the entire trail and go back home and live by himself as opposed to go back home to
00:23:35
Speaker
Not a great situation. um That one, it makes me emotional just talking about it, but...
00:23:43
Speaker
One second. Yep. And then um there was a gentleman that was 65 and he had waited decades, literally, since he was like 10 or 15 and he was 65.
00:23:59
Speaker
to hike the trail and how much it meant to him. And he talked about the trail and the soil and talking to the farmers like it was part of him. And I think that just changed my viewpoint on how I think about the trail and how I connect to it.
00:24:18
Speaker
There was another gentleman just a few years younger that was battling cancer and he was taking chemo while he was hiking and it was decreasing the amount of testosterone in his body. And so he knew eventually he would not be able to hike. So he started with the hardest part first in the north and he did not finish the trail because he didn't, he didn't make it. Right. But There's, you know, like as there's so many different experiences. the The military veterans really got to me because of their stories and how applicable I find it from leaving the military to leaving a trail, that transition period. A lot of hikers call it post-trail depression. I call it post-trail transition because...
00:25:04
Speaker
Well, for obvious reasons. And I think there's so much to say about that. I only say a couple chapters toward the end of the book about it, but on subsequent books that I have the research on, I talk a lot more about it because I talked to hikers after the trail, but Yeah, I find that fascinating um and so applicable.
00:25:25
Speaker
And talking to these hikers, I know you I gave you so much more than just one. I just, I cannot do just one. Oh, no, I don't, I wouldn't want, yes, yes. No, it's it's okay. That's just me. I just can't pick. But so that's just a short reason of why,
00:25:41
Speaker
So many different people that I talked to give me so many different perceptions and ways to think about things differently or approach things differently. And so I'm like, well, if this person is coming to the trail like this and they're leaving like this, how am I different from the beginning or,
00:26:01
Speaker
what stories in my life am I thinking of similarly or how has community changed? So it just, it made me reflect more. And so all these people had so many different, some people were just hiking because, and I almost quote, you know, grad school is going to be insane.
00:26:17
Speaker
i want to do some sort of adventure before, you know, it's something as simple as that. get One hiker even told me this sounded cool and that was it. And that's fine. But I still learned from something from each hiker. no matter what age or why they decided to hike or their back. you know So, yeah, i there' is I think there's a little bit from each hiker, you know, in the middle of a book. I know it's a hiker named Midnight, and he pulls out a poem that he wrote, and he just had a ah different interpretation of the trail in terms of
00:26:52
Speaker
You know, he had had this different life that his parents chose and now he can choose his life for himself. So it made me wonder, what does that look like to choose for myself? You know, I've been living on own since I was 18, but what does that look like to do that? You know, and so. Yeah.
00:27:08
Speaker
just learning from each person at least one or two things of how does that apply to me or other people. And yeah, it was completely different than I thought it would be because I thought it was just going to be me asking some questions, writing them down and writing a paper, but it became so much more of a reflection and an internal process.
Redefining Endurance as a Social Endeavor
00:27:30
Speaker
And yeah, i also expected physical hardship to dominate the conversations and And it surprised me how often, like you said in the beginning, and we talked about connection or the lack of it.
00:27:41
Speaker
And yeah even people who love solitude, And I'm a very independent person. And, you know, even the people who started started the trail by themselves, which was every single hiker except one, talked about how much the small interactions mattered over time.
00:27:58
Speaker
And in my study, I know it's a small sample size, but only three hikers finished alone. And so all to say it reframed endurance for me as something that's deeply social, even when the effort is individual.
00:28:14
Speaker
Ah, it's beautifully put. I love that. And that's, I was going to ask you, and you've, I think, unless there's something you want to add, you've already really answered it. How has this experience of writing the book and talking to these people changed your life on the trail? If you were going to go out just for a weekend or even a day hiking, I imagine you carry these stories with you in a good way, making you perhaps a little more introspective or thinking. I don't know if that's accurate or not. I just imagine that these these must live on through your thoughts, um all these experiences that you've now heard and then written down. Would that be fair to say?
00:28:54
Speaker
Yeah, especially writing about it because... You talk to someone, you don't really remember everything they said, at least, you know, especially however many years it's been, but writing it, especially 33 drafts over and over. i yes remember what they said now. And, um, like i remember multiple times during the interview with a hiker I mentioned earlier who had cancer.
00:29:17
Speaker
he just would turn and say, oh, that's a sycamore or that's a red-eyed vireo and just tell me what the birds in the trees were. I'm horrible at naming species. I wanna get better.
00:29:28
Speaker
But that fascinated me and another hiker would just turn and say, oh my gosh, look at how the light is reflecting off of that. Or, oh, look at the golden rod. It's just, you know, it makes you stop because so many times I've been walking and i I don't know if you've experienced this and you're just kind of walking past things that other people are like, oh my gosh, I've never seen that before. Or maybe you experience this more, in fact, because you do shorter trips. And so so maybe when you get out there, you're more aware, yeah.
00:29:56
Speaker
but I found that talking to people and remembering what they said, they, and my mother joined me for a couple of times on the hike. right Usually just, she would hike a mile in and then I would keep going and she'd hike a mile out and then join me at the end of the day just to say hi. But she did um a couple, you know, at Harper's Ferry, you know, it's easier trail, but you know, she was in her seventies and she did a 10 mile day with us. good for her And she kept saying, you know,
00:30:23
Speaker
Oh my gosh, look, that there's a squirrel. ah Oh my gosh, there's a bird. It's like, okay we've seen these before. It's like, oh my gosh, look at this flower. And I'm so used to just trying to get out miles, which is, I don't like that mindset for me to be in.
00:30:38
Speaker
But I'm so used to that, that when people do do that, I'm like, oh my God, let's go. But then I stop and I'm like oh my gosh, I've been just blowing past this stuff. And i have to slow down and remember, thank you for reminding me that this is cool. This is why I'm doing this.
00:30:54
Speaker
yeah It's not about getting however many miles each day. Good God. Yeah, it's you're exactly right. And it's you're you're you're making me think of two two sort of slight side stories. One is there's a really lovely three-mile trail, a loop right by my house, a couple of minutes um away.
00:31:11
Speaker
And there's a bench halfway around. And I've walked this trail probably literally hundreds of times. It's my go-to if I just need to get out for an hour. And I've never sat on that bench.
00:31:23
Speaker
Why would I? I've got to get back. I'm on my lunch break. um And then maybe a couple of months ago, I thought, why don't I just make a point of sitting down for five minutes, unplug the audio book, whatever I'm listening to, and just five minutes and watch just the trees waving in the wind and and again, sort of making that connection again. It's not about trying to just rush around those three miles and get back to answering that email.
00:31:50
Speaker
How was that experience when you did that? Like, did anything come up or was it just like, oh I'm glad I did that? It was, it was ah recentering, I would say, and, and reminding myself, how lucky am I that this, I live in a pretty urban area and this is five minutes from my house and just, just like a very small reset every day. Um,
00:32:14
Speaker
Because, and it just a reminder why I'm out there. I'm out there to emotionally reset as well as getting some exercise. um So now I make a point of sitting for about five minutes. Oh, love that.
00:32:28
Speaker
And just, it's it's, I think it's just being deliberate. All right, I'm out here. How lucky am I to have the physical capability and the time to be out here? I need to be deliberate with that time and enjoy it.
00:32:42
Speaker
um Yeah, that's the perfect word, deliberate, because sometimes we can just kind of skate through and we have to be deliberate about, or at least I do, about my intention or like you slowing down, sitting on the bench. And so like, what's my version of, that makes me wonder what's my version of sitting on the bench, you know?
00:33:00
Speaker
Right. Could be a metaphor. Yeah, exactly. how so that's what makes, it's like the hikers. Like that's what makes me think, what's my three mile loop and what do I just like kind of blow past and just like, okay, yeah, it's my, it's my relaxation or exercise time, but what am I blowing past? So what's my five minutes on the bench, you know, that I can do.
00:33:19
Speaker
yeah So, yeah, love that. And it's really interesting. When you're talking about all these hikers, it makes me think I was kind of reflecting in my head about stories I've heard. And I think like many people, the book Wild it was inspirational and lots of people love it. And it's this lady who goes on the trail.
00:33:37
Speaker
I wouldn't say she's necessarily escaping trauma, but it's a trauma-filled life. ahead of time. And then one of my other favorite books is written by a man who I now call, thankfully, a good friend, Derek Lugo wrote The Fabulous Thru Hiker.
00:33:52
Speaker
He literally read A Walk in the Woods in his apartment in Brooklyn and all right and flew to Georgia, had never having camped a day in his life. So it's almost like two opposite dichotomy to get on the trail and life-changing for both.
00:34:08
Speaker
Well, both of those books had a heck of a recruitment rate, so you picked great books to motivate you. yeah it's ah they're Yeah, they're both so different and and yet so fantastic. um Yeah.
00:34:22
Speaker
Yeah, so really enjoyed both of them. As we kind of come around to the the home stretch here I've got three questions I'm going to ask you. um The first is, and this is, I think, particularly important given that you were also – in sort of education and now your career is going a different way. But how is how is success and what you feel of when you hear the word success changed for you over the years?
Evolving Definition of Success
00:34:45
Speaker
I think at first it was more. Where am I going? What does that look like? maybe even monetarily, what does that look like? And maybe something to deal with status or position or what is my job title?
00:35:00
Speaker
And now i think it's more living in alignment with my values and being as much as I can in nature and sitting on my bench for five minutes and recalibrating. And it's just remembering what...
00:35:20
Speaker
not what calms me, but what kind of centers me. And that's mostly either hiking or climbing or just some sort of being outdoors. That's community. So it's just, I think back to values and then enjoyment and just being curious. And so that curiosity, you know, it always starts with interest and then it leads to some people call it passion or just some sort of hobby or anything, but it all starts, I think with interest and curiosity. And so just, I'm glad that I never had that stifled because I was in education for over 10 years and I saw that stifled so much and just sit there and just raise your hand. And I don't want to hear your comments. Just do this. Just open up your brain. Let me fill it with information, close your brain and regurgitate the stuff.
00:36:04
Speaker
And so that's, you know, some people, i think I can ask too many questions, but I'm glad I never lost that. And so I think part of that is just keeping that and success is being in alignment with the person that I want to be and what I believe in.
00:36:22
Speaker
I love that. Yeah. And what a great lesson for us all. That's a work in progress. I'm not saying I'm there. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, you never will be. And that's kind of the beauty of it. I think. I should hope not. Yeah. yeah No, we're, we're, yeah.
00:36:36
Speaker
It's a lifelong journey that is. Yeah. Um, you can answer one of these or both, but I was curious if there is a book and, or a piece of music that's been particularly impactful on your life.
Influential Books on Psychology and Growth
00:36:49
Speaker
I wouldn't say one because, again, i have a hard time choosing one. Of course. But I was thinking that maybe in my early 20s when I was doing ultramarathon running, I read a lot of ultramarathon books because like ah Dean Karnasas, I read all of his and Rich Roll had one, I was really getting into long distance running, but also just starting to get into self development. Like, oh my gosh, you can actually work on yourself. Great. Right. Wow. And I have a very specific brain that is very attuned to any kind of self-improvement or just like always doing better. I love feedback. I thrive off of just what can I do better?
00:37:28
Speaker
Sometimes to my shit you know own chagrin. but um And so I think that started it. And that influenced me a lot in my 20s. And in in my 30s, it's more psychological books. And I'm very into psychology, why we do the things we do.
00:37:45
Speaker
ah As clearly stated by you know my book and my research, I'm always asking why and why. What do you think, you know, just anything that's going on your brain. And so I think now it's more psychology books, not like you would buy for school, but anything from Carol Dweck to Angela Duckworth. Yeah.
00:38:11
Speaker
I find those really fascinating. And so, yeah, I'd say they didn't really influence me in my writing because I never thought I'd be a writer, but i think I've learned a lot from just how other people think in those scenarios. So from anything from ultra marathon running to now,
00:38:31
Speaker
Just the brain. So how ah how do we how do we come to the conclusions that we come to? Why are you wearing that shirt? You know, anything. No, I love it. I find it fascinating and it's helped develop my perspective as well as traveling. That's why I'm big proponent when I was even teaching the Indian Reservation in North Dakota for a couple years.
00:38:52
Speaker
And I would tell my students, you know, even if you come back, just get out for a year, whether it's work, school, whatever. And if you come back, that's fine. But I just think it's really important to experience other areas of the culture or something.
00:39:06
Speaker
And it really broadens your perspective. I don't think we really understand it until we've done it. And so that's something that's that's really helped. It's just the more I'm curious and then the more I read, the more I learn, and then the more I go do.
00:39:18
Speaker
I love that. And I think we're cut from a very similar cloth. I've done three or four or five Ks and that is the extent of my running career. That's it. I've got no innate interest in say ultra a marathon running, but if there was a book about the cycle, why this man or woman did it, I'm interested.
00:39:39
Speaker
you know What obstacles did they face? that I'm with you. that To me, that is fascinating. it's less about the the activity and more about the why. Yeah. And then I don't know about you, but I compare it to myself. And that's what I found interesting about the hikers is, yeah, I can ask them all these questions. And it is fascinating to get a generalizationization generalization of a group of people. And not that every hiker thought the same, but, you know, there was often similar answers.
00:40:04
Speaker
And, but it's also, how do I think? And it's shaping us. And so I think if you're like me, you're taking those answers and then it's making you think, like I said earlier, it all comes back to that reflection. It's like, but we need these other people and their answers and their, how they live their life, you know, to make us think about ours, because why are we going to challenge ourselves or think about something different?
00:40:29
Speaker
if we're just doing the same thing every day. And so that's why I love talking to different people. and It's like, well, why are you doing this? oh, well, I wonder how that would look in my life, whether it's food or trips or doing a friend's podcast on the side. Exactly. And I
The Art of Listening and Teaching Influence
00:40:45
Speaker
love that. Exactly. It's come full circle. That's kind of the, one of the deep, dark secrets of why i started this podcast. I just love listening to people's stories from all different walks of life about things I will never do. I don't know about, and yet they're all relatable when we pull back the layers and, Do you think, because like me, I think my teaching career has really helped me be a better public speaker because I'm used to being in the front of the room and Some people aren't listening. I'm making jokes to myself, especially when I taught the little, little kids. I taught all the way to university, but you know everyone's different. And so ah do you have the same thing where your teaching career has kind of helped you want to talk to people more and be in front of people and do this podcast? Do you think those two kind of coalesce in a way? are they
00:41:34
Speaker
Are the bubbles in the Venn diagram touching or are they more separate? You know what? Nobody's ever asked me that before, and I don't know if I've really thought about it, but absolutely. Because I think about the most impactful stories of that I've heard in my life, and some of those have come from eight and nine-year-olds that were in my classroom who I had no idea were going through what they were going through or came from an environment they came from. And I'm actually doing a talk a week on Saturday, doing a TED talk about resilience. And I'm going to be speaking about one of these kids who, you know, that I'm 40 years older than him. And he taught me about resilience.
00:42:17
Speaker
um exactly so So absolutely, I think it does. I think there is quite a crossover in that Venn diagram. Yeah, but not many people can say, i learned this from someone 40 years younger. It takes a specific and strong, I think, kind of individual that you're able to say, i learned this from this younger person.
00:42:36
Speaker
When most people will be like, oh, I know more than you do, you know, because I'm older, I have more experience. But you're open enough and confident enough, it seems, to say, yeah. I can learn from anyone and I'll prove it with this nine year old. And that's it that's why when I was asked to do this talk, he was the first person that came to mind was I need to get this story out there because if I'm going to be thinking about it however many years later and it still impacts me, this story needs to be shared.
00:43:04
Speaker
Exactly. And so I'll be doing that. um My final question of these three for you is if you were going to go on a day hike somewhere, somewhere you love, and you could go with anybody in the world, whether it's somebody you know, somebody from history, somebody famous, somebody that's been or is in your life, who would you like to go on a hike with and be able to pick their brain?
Dream Hiking Companions
00:43:25
Speaker
So I'll keep in theme with my not able to pick one Of course, of course. You're going Yeah. No, not in the slightest. So the first would be, the first, I know people have said this before, but the first would be my dad because he's not my biological father, but um I called him my dad. He called me daughter and...
00:43:43
Speaker
it was the father figure I always needed, but never got enough time with. And he recently passed. oh so And so I would love to talk to him. I was just thinking today, man, it'd be nice to call him and just kind of catch up and get his take on things. And so I think, you know, it makes you think about time. But other than that, i again, hard to,
00:44:08
Speaker
hi i'm sure you I'm sure you have a hard time picking too. Yes. um Do you find yours changing or do you find it's the same person every time?
00:44:19
Speaker
ah You mean for myself or when I'm talking, when people, for myself, I think it depends where I am in life. Exactly. If I'm going through a bit of a, you know, ah a crisis of some sort, I'm more drawn to ah my mom who's, who's always given me sage advice and guides me in the right direction. But if life is going particularly well, perhaps my mind and my thoughts are going elsewhere. that Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It does change. It's like when people ask you your favorite movie or favorite band. It's, I feel like my favorite,
00:44:48
Speaker
music changes more yeah constantly and then movies is like, well, this year it's, but yeah. Anyway, to answer your question, I think I would right now I'm thinking Daniel Kahneman, which psychologist, won a Nobel Peace Prize in economy.
00:45:04
Speaker
or economics because psychology wasn't a thing. But yeah, I think he has so much wisdom from his extremely long life of doing a lot of psychology research.
00:45:18
Speaker
And I would find that fascinating just to talk to him and what have you learned? What have you found? Tell me everything. So that's, i think that's who popped into my head right then. That's, yeah, fascinating. Again, another deep dark secret is I get to scribble all these names down and then look these people up. You know, these people have impacted other people. Oh, help yeah. First thing you'll see is probably thinking fast and slow.
00:45:42
Speaker
And right I'm sure you'll love that book. That'll be your first pleasure book. There we go. Well, second. Second after yours. Second. yes. Of course. Of course. What am I thinking? if If people want to read your book, they want to ask you a question, find out more about you. What's the best way to get either a copy of your book or or in touch with you?
Supporting the Book and Closing
00:46:00
Speaker
um I'm only on Instagram. And so I'm at hiker underscore Sav, S-A-V, the beginning of my name. And then the book, it's worldwide on Amazon. Yes. Or you can buy it through me if you want to sign copy or come to my one of my speaking events.
00:46:16
Speaker
Or if you would like to support local bookstores, which i I try to get people to steer towards, you can usually just call or go to your local bookstore and have them order it.
00:46:28
Speaker
And then they get a bigger slice as opposed to just going through Amazon. And so does help support local bookstores, which I know seems a little bit more trouble to go through, but we really do need to save them. And so I'm going to push that. And um yeah, but anywhere really.
00:46:47
Speaker
Yeah, I will say on that note, i and I'm guilty of this as anyone, I can order a book on Amazon and then I'll be the first one to be sad and complain if the local bookshop shuts down.
00:46:59
Speaker
you know It just takes a little more effort from all of us and these places can thrive and stay open. Yes, well, we value comfort and so I get it. Indeed, yeah, we all do it. But Savannah, it's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed talking to you. I cannot thank you enough for your time.
00:47:16
Speaker
Oh, yes. It was an honor being here and being able to see here your background. That's right. You got it. Thank you so much.
00:47:26
Speaker
Thank you again to this week's guest and I hope today's episode was as enjoyable for you as it was for me and perhaps even inspired your next adventure. If you did enjoy the show, please be sure to subscribe, leave a review or follow us wherever you get your podcasts. You can find more information at theoutdoorsyeducator.com or follow us on Instagram, TikTok or Facebook. Until next time, thank you so much for listening to The Outdoorsy Educator Podcast.