Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Gladiator (Episode 95)
694 Plays1 year ago
“Shadows and dust”
Caleb and Michael talk about the philosophical themes in the epic movie “Gladiator.” It's the very first Stoa film review.
(00:39) Introduction
(07:26) Movie Review
(09:32) Commodus as Anti-Model
(13:57) Is Maximus Stoic?
(17:03) Marcus Aurelius in Gladiator
(19:50) Maximus is a Stoic Hero
(23:28) The Afterlife
(29:11) Proximo
(34:37) Gladiatorial Games
(37:19) Masculinity and Role Ethics
(48:26) Restoring the Republic
***
Subscribe to The Stoa Letter for weekly meditations, actions, and links to the best Stoic resources: www.stoaletter.com/subscribe
Download the Stoa app (it’s a free download): stoameditation.com/pod
If you try the Stoa app and find it useful, but truly cannot afford it, email us and we'll set you up with a free account.
Listen to more episodes and learn more here: https://stoameditation.com/blog/stoa-conversations/
Thanks to Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music in the conversations: https://ancientlyre.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Stoicism and Courage
00:00:00
Speaker
Maybe to throw it back to you, do you think there's a, do you think Stoics should cultivate, don't have courage? I'm trying to think of, cause we, we just, we often don't talk about the, we often focus on the internal and stoicism, but an important part of the internal is the ability to actually navigate, to go out and be courageous, to go out and stand up to the bully, to go out and fight the person that needs to be fought.
Introduction of Hosts and Topic
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to a stoic conversations. My name is Caleb Ontogeros. And I'm Michael Trumbly.
00:00:27
Speaker
And today we are going to be talking about the movie Gladiator, which should be a lot of fun. I'm excited. I'm excited to do that. It's time for our very first Stoa film review.
Setting the Stage for 'Gladiator' Review
00:00:39
Speaker
That's right. So starting with Gladiator, a film from the 2000s starring Russell Crowe. Hopefully many of you have seen it. If not, there's almost certainly going to be spoilers. So pause this conversation right now and whatever you're doing, you know, just read the Wikipedia summary or, you know, watch the actual movie.
Personal Experiences and Historical Context
00:01:02
Speaker
I've seen it probably at least three times, probably three or five times. I don't exactly remember how many times but I recently watched it and it holds up. It's still a great film.
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah, I watched it yesterday. It was great. The last time I saw it too was before I was into Stoicism or any sort of ancient Greek or Roman history or anything like that. So it was cool to rewatch and be like, Oh yeah, that's Marcus Aurelius. That's, you know, that's communist. That's like, this is a.
00:01:34
Speaker
The historical part of this historical fiction was jumping out a lot more. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think I first saw it when I was a kid with my dad and brother. That's a lot of fun. I had no idea about the stoic connections to the movie. And I think there are a lot of different potential connections. I know some of you all argued about how stoic a film or not it is, and that's what we should definitely get into.
Structure of Film Review: Pros and Cons
00:02:02
Speaker
So I suppose we'll kind of structure this like some of our other review episodes. Think about some of the aspects of the movie that we think are the best and good. Think about some of the aspects of the movie that are maybe less well done and then maybe end with some provocative challenges or interesting tidbits that we want to pull out of it.
Overview of 'Gladiator's' Plot
00:02:25
Speaker
Should we do a quick overview of the plot for those that have seen it before? Not going to rewatch it as you said, pause, but know enough to want their memory jogged. Yeah, that's a good idea. Before we jump into it, we should do a quick review and go over some of the main events, character names, and so on.
00:02:46
Speaker
Um, so I can take a quick stab at that. So you've got, you've got the central character, Maximus Decimus Meridius. Um, and he's the fellow played by Russell Crowe. He's a respected Roman. You have a meeting between him and Marcus Aurelius where Marcus Aurelius decides, look, Maximus, I want you to take over the army, return to Rome and essentially restore the Roman Republic.
00:03:16
Speaker
of old. Into the scene enters Commodus, played by Walking Phoenix, who, you know, he's the villain, clear villain of the story, and he decides to kill his father, Kill Marcus Aurelius, which is
00:03:33
Speaker
something one could imagine the real communists doing, although this is a historical fiction, of course, and he asks for Maximus's loyalty. Maximus refuses, and as such, Commodus has his family killed, and he also tries to kill Maximus, but Maximus, of course, escapes.
Maximus' Rise and Quest for Revenge
00:03:56
Speaker
He ends up becoming captured just after he sees the fate of his family, of his wife and son, a really tragic scene. He's captured, sold to a gladiator, a fellow who runs a gladiator school, a former gladiator who runs a gladiator school, and becomes more or less becomes a successful gladiator who finds himself in a position back in Rome as a gladiator
00:04:25
Speaker
a very popular one at that, popular enough that he has some amount of political power. He's set on revenge, avenging the death of his family. And as the film goes on, you have movements to restore the Republic. You have Commodus trying to just in a paranoid manner, destroying his enemies in the Senate, and then a final battle between Commodus and Maximus in the arena.
00:04:55
Speaker
the idea here is that Commodus is trying to become a tyrant and Maximus is actually gaining the appeal of the the mob they call it like Maximus is such a great gladiator that the people of Rome are starting to love him so much that Commodus is
00:05:13
Speaker
can't kill him in cold blood so he tries to he sets up more and more dangerous gladiator battles for Maximus. Maximus continues to win those and becomes more and more famous and then at the end Commodus plans to and so this is this is the full spoiler he says well I'll just kill him in the arena and I'll kind of gain the honor and that's a way of killing him without without
00:05:38
Speaker
ruining any of my honor.
Historical Inaccuracies of 'Gladiator'
00:05:40
Speaker
And Commodus plans to do this by stabbing Maximus before they get out there, but covering up the womb. So Maximus is, like, dying, really injured in the fight. And then, but Maximus still overpowers Commodus, kills him, but then dies later of his wound after saying, you know, with his dying breath being, like, restore the Republic, you know, make sure that Marcus Aurelius' vision is seen as was intended.
00:06:09
Speaker
The other thing I wanted to add there is that, as you said, it's not historical at all. For those that might not know, Commodus was the son of Marcus Aurelius. It's not clear to me that Maximus was a real person at all, but Commodus co-ruled with Marcus Aurelius for a certain period of time, I think a couple of years before Marcus Aurelius' death, and then Commodus ruled on his own, was not killed in the arena by any Maximus, but was so
00:06:35
Speaker
tyrannical or poorly behaved to the point that he, uh, uh, so a SAS attempted to be assassinated.
Maximus as a Stoic Model
00:06:41
Speaker
And then when that poisoning didn't work was famously his wrestling coach or partner was went in there and strangled him to death. Um, so he was assassinated. So taking this tyrannical character, uh, from history, putting them in a different context around this, around this Maximus persona who's who is fictional.
00:07:01
Speaker
That's right. Marcus Aurelius is known as the last of the five good emperors. Commodus came next. He was generally not seen as a good emperor. Yeah. If you're the last of the good emperors, then the next guy probably isn't that good. Yeah. You don't want to follow that. So that's some background. If you haven't seen it in a while.
00:07:26
Speaker
Yup.
Storytelling Style and Virtue
00:07:27
Speaker
So overall, I think the first thing just to say is I find this a fully, it's just an awesome film, completely very entertaining, gets me pumped up, has several tragic, really tragic elements to it as well. The music is fantastically done, set design is great. And in general, it completely holds up as I rewatched it over the past few years.
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I loved it. Um, I haven't seen in a while. I didn't remember it as being like that great of a movie to be
Maximus vs. Commodus: Virtue and Vice
00:07:59
Speaker
honest. Like I didn't, gladiator is not one of my favorite movies, let's say, but when I realized I was like, this is fantastic. Um, and one thing I, one thing about it is that it was very modern in the film criticism sense. So you can think of something that's like postmodern as something that is maybe ironic or self-aware.
00:08:18
Speaker
And modern, when I think of a modern movie, I define that as like before postmodernism. So it's this idea of it has these very clear values. This, this, uh, it's earnestly trying to tell a story. And I think this was a movie where there was like an earnest picture of like, this is the good guy, the bad guy. Um, and the good guy is going to kind of struggle and the good guy is going to represent these virtues and these values.
00:08:42
Speaker
Impede the pied maximus from from getting his way and this kind of the struggle it takes a stance about what. You know really what a good leader looks like which is maximus who's you know courageous but also considerate of others.
00:09:01
Speaker
actively doesn't want to be emperor, so is not vain, is not power hungry. So it takes a stance on what a good person looks like. And then it takes a clear picture also on a bad person looks like somebody who is motivated by their passions, motivated by reputation, doesn't have a kind of reverence or respect for the wishes of other people, which is Commodus' character. And so I think that was something that I really liked about it. Kind of straightforwardness of it.
00:09:32
Speaker
But yeah, I think it does a good job painting Commodus as an anti-model. And if you want to take a stoic framing on that, you can think of him as like a perfect model of someone who is consumed by passion. Someone who is too envious, too quick to anger, and has this view of life where what others
00:10:00
Speaker
do is perceived as slights and that matters because they're obstacles to his happiness, whether it is being desperate for his father, Marcus Aurelius' attention, or later the praise of the mob or the crowd.
00:10:22
Speaker
Well, I was going to say in this anti-model picture, I think that's something that makes Commodus, and Joaquin Phoenix is acting as wonderful in this, but I think it makes Commodus such a compelling villain, is that he's not one of those characters who's impervious, who's like, haha, I'm one-dimensional, I'm evil. He is very sensitive. He's very weak in many ways. And that weakness is combined with the incredible external power of being the leader of Rome, the Roman emperor.
00:10:49
Speaker
And that makes an interesting dynamic and interesting exploration of anti-models, as you say.
Maximus' Stoic Characteristics
00:10:56
Speaker
So in this movie, he's not really, I would say he wants to be emperor. And when Marcus Aurelius tells him, no, you're not going to be emperor, Maximus is going to be instead.
00:11:09
Speaker
There isn't this like evil plan he had had in the past. He kind of kills Marcus Aurelius in a moment of passion. And it shows to me this idea of this person who thinks like, you know, if this happens, my life will be ruined. It is that kind of vulnerability. He feels very vulnerable to external circumstances. And that's what leads him to do these awful things, right? You said there's the kind of social perception of slight, but really he's fragile.
00:11:33
Speaker
And that's that kind of irony of being so powerful, but so fragile and so focused on controlling what's outside of your control, what's on the other part of the psychology of control. That's what makes him a really good villain to me. I mean, in that scene where he is receiving the news that he will not be the next emperor from Marcus Aurelius, he notes that
00:11:55
Speaker
You, my father, you're always impressing these four cardinal virtues on me, the virtues of wisdom, temperance, fortitude, and justice. But I had none of those. All I have is ambition. But that ambition is...
00:12:16
Speaker
grounded, I think in this real, you get the sense that it's grounded in this view that his self-worth is tied up with whether or not he becomes emperor, how others perceive him, and so on in a way that Marcus Aurelius' character is clearly not bound up in that way, Maximus' is not.
00:12:36
Speaker
Yeah, there's this scene very early on where Maximus is, uh, you know, he's that kind of gladiator training and it's clear that Maximus, you know, could wipe the floor with these people. Um, and they're kind of set. Uh, so Maximus is this newly acquired slave and they don't know anything about him and they're, they're trying to, um, assess whether or not he's going to be a good fighter or not. And the gladiator trainer is, you know, hitting Maximus with the wooden sword and Maximus is not fighting back. Right. And the, and he's like, why would I have to, like, why should I fight here? I don't have anything to prove. Like what am I trying to show you?
00:13:06
Speaker
And they kind of label him as a as a poor fighter or assume he's a poor fighter but that's I think just the counter example you said is that somebody who's not caught up or Maximus's character is supposed to be one who's not caught up and what other people think of him and Marcus Aurelius has this line when Maximus refuses to be Emperor as Marcus Aurelius says you know will you be Emperor or will you accept my charge not to be Emperor sorry but to take power as we transition into a republic
00:13:34
Speaker
Uh, Max says, no, like I really don't want to do that. And Marcus really says, well, that's exactly why it has to be you, right? As the person who doesn't want that power should be the person to have it. Um, I think just building out your point, you know, if you have this contrast to somebody who's super caught up in what other people think of him and that becomes a weakness and somebody who doesn't care at all, very stoic in that sense, and is, uh, becomes kind of Maximus's strength or at least something we admire.
Stoicism in 'Gladiator': Marcus Aurelius and Maximus
00:13:57
Speaker
And so then there's the question, all right, so communist, clear, anti-model. To what extent then is Maximus a model? Because I think he does embody the traits of persistence, endurance, and in the beginning of the film when you see him as a general, it's clear that he's respected.
00:14:21
Speaker
as a general, does his job well and cares for his men and his men, care for him. And that is why Marcus Aurelius in the film would place this responsibility of restoring the Republic to a large extent in his hands.
00:14:43
Speaker
But the next probably half of the movie or so is him discovering that his wife and son are dead and he is hell-bent on avenging their death, which from the Stoic perspective is misplaced. I mean, I think you could think that he ought to avenge their death.
00:15:05
Speaker
and that isn't maybe perhaps what duty requires of him, but he is completely obsessed with that task, right? Consumed in a way that I think a stoic would ideally, consumed in a way that a stoic would not be. So what do you think about that?
00:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, my read on this is that Maximus is kind of an Aristotelian hero. So in some ways, he is small s stoic. So he is not afraid of death. He doesn't care what other people think of him. So he embodies a lot of embodies these characteristics that other stoics would have in common. But
00:15:46
Speaker
What's his ultimate value? His ultimate value, I think, you know, Plato talks about this division between there's the people who care about reason, it's probably Marcus Aurelius, there's the people who care about honor, probably Maximus, and then there's the people that care about, and Plato says the people that care about honor are the soldiers, the warriors, the military.
00:16:06
Speaker
And then there's the people who care about, you know, passions, things like that. That's console Marcus, uh, or Maximus is right in the middle there. I think he cares about honor and he's not going to fear death in the cut, in the pursuit of that and the pursuit of kind of achieving what he thinks is justice. And so I think that it's, that that's not a stoic.
00:16:27
Speaker
It is to dedicate your life towards revenge and punishment and then not to be afraid of things in the path of doing that or be very courageous in the pursuit of that or very single-minded such that you can't be distracted by temptation or bribes. That's not stoic. That's just you not caring about certain external things in pursuit of another external result, right?
00:16:54
Speaker
But I think that he still has enough characteristics to be a positive role model, but I don't think he's a stoic. And I think maybe maybe it's interesting what you think about this kilt. I think maybe we actually get this portrayal of stoicism as being impotent, as actually being naive.
00:17:11
Speaker
Like, what does it say in this portrayal of Marcus Aurelius that he gives the news to his son and is murdered by his son, unable to anticipate it, unable to defend himself, unable to have the foresight to have somebody in the room present or anything like this? There's a kind of naivety to that.
00:17:31
Speaker
Like Marcus Aureus really set up the world to burn a bit if he thought that Commodus was a bad person. And so I almost think there's like this, you know, the stoic is impotent. The tyrant is too passionate, but the honor driven Maximus is in the middle. That's my reading of it.
00:17:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting. You have this portrayal of Marcus Aurelius as someone who is good and just, but is almost like not suited to his role.
00:18:05
Speaker
in a way, like he's too much, he's kind of like the senators. It seems to me like he's portrayed in a manner that's similar to some of the senators who clearly care about Rome, but don't know, I don't know exactly what it is, but doesn't have the foresight to prepare himself for assassination by the hand of Commodus or even before that, set up things to move swiftly.
00:18:33
Speaker
enough so that issue wouldn't even arise. I think that is something you do kind of get in the film. If it's not a critique of Stoicism, at least one possible.
00:18:48
Speaker
failure mode of Stoicism is expecting others to be more rational. And you kind of get hints of this, that Marcus Aurelius and one respect in which he failed as a father for Commodus is that he expected Commodus to be someone he wasn't and as a result may have contributed to him being worse.
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah, which again, I would say is naivety, or at least that's what's being portrayed, right? Is this this idea that this Marcus, maybe not the Stoics, maybe doesn't have a thing, gladiators and making explicit comment about Stoicism, but at least Marcus Aurelius. Is that maybe the word? This idea of not seeing Commodus for who he is, or if so, only too late or in the wrong kind of way, both when you're raising him and in providing the news.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, which I think is fine. I mean, you can you don't have to be a stoic to make a like, I don't need gladiator to agree and put Marcus Aurelius on a pedestal. Yeah, but I don't but I don't think it's necessarily a stoic movie.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting. I think that you can make a case for a Venustoic movie, but before I make that, I would say probably one of my least favorite films or aspects of the film is actually its portrayal of Marcus Aurelius. I feel like they get close to some of what I think is the essence of The Man, where there are some parts that I think are our misses, which of course is fine, because I mean, it's not a great movie. But in terms of
00:20:16
Speaker
I'm curious about what you think about this. The case for Maximus being more of a Stoic is that he has an arc. At first, he is consumed by the desire for vengeance.
00:20:39
Speaker
But over the course of the film, he realizes that there are some things that just are more important to him than killing Commodus. Like, he won't kill Commodus the first chance he gets because Lucius Verus, a younger boy, a son of one of his friends and former lovers, is held by Commodus. And I think the arc of
00:21:06
Speaker
Maximus' story is in a way pursuing pure vengeance too.
00:21:12
Speaker
actually fulfilling the charge that Marcus Aurelius put on him, working with the senators for an idea which in the heat of his sorrow, he thought was nonsense, this idea of actually restoring Rome. You have earlier scenes of him carving out the symbols of Rome as PQR, which I interpret as a rejection of that idea.
00:21:40
Speaker
to clarify for those listening, he has like a tattoo. He has the tattoo of SPQR on his arm and he's literally like, uh, you know, carving it out of his own skin as a rejection of it when he's in the gladiator school.
00:21:53
Speaker
Exactly. But over the course of the film, he does end up fulfilling that charge from Marcus Aurelius in addition to getting vengeance. Maybe that in addition to does cut against the stoic case, right? But I think it is important that
00:22:11
Speaker
It's not a pure vengeance film in a way. Social roles are, if you want to think about it from Epictetus's perspective, some of his social roles, some obligations that he takes on still are respected.
Maximus' Arc Towards Stoic Ideals
00:22:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's a fair point. I like this idea of this transition from vengeance to justice. This transition to killing Commodus is something that benefits him, to killing Commodus is something that benefits other people, or fulfills the responsibility that Marcus Aurelius gave him, which is to restore the Roman Republic.
00:22:49
Speaker
And yeah, I think you're right about that arc and maybe it's stoic. It's stoic in a sense. Cause if I asked the question, I was thinking the question, you know, what would a stoic do?
00:22:59
Speaker
And maybe they wouldn't necessarily act, um, how Maximus acted at the start, but certainly in that final scene, certainly when, you know, even, even on death's door, prioritizing, because right before maxi, you know, uh, gives the order to restore the Republic and do this. Um, yeah, so that's, that's, I agree. That's very stoic at the end. So.
00:23:25
Speaker
Yeah, maybe I'm persuaded to kill him. Maybe there's nothing else to it. Maybe you got me. One idea that I noticed that's not stoic, that's throughout the film that I had not noticed previously is how important the idea of an afterlife is to Gladiator. So that is, I think, another, some more evidence against it being a stoic film, which is that
00:23:49
Speaker
There's a site, Marcus Aurelius has this great line when he introduces himself again to Commodus. Commodus thinks he's dead. And everyone's like, you know, who are you? And Maximus says, I'm Maximus Doridius Massimius, or whatever his his full name is. Like, that's what you said earlier. Yeah, Maximus Decimus, Maximus Decimus Aurelius. And, you know, I will have my vengeance in this life or the next. There are constant images of
00:24:17
Speaker
the afterlife as a pastoral Roman farm where he meets his wife and children again, one of his gladiator companions.
00:24:33
Speaker
is convinced that he will meet also his family in the afterlife, as well as the fact that Maximus will meet his family again, too. And of course, you have the ending scene where you get to see him move to go home almost in a way. And this idea of going home to an afterlife is
00:25:01
Speaker
This is certainly not, maybe stoicism doesn't reject it, but it's not something that stoics are going to put up front and center.
Afterlife vs. Stoic Beliefs
00:25:10
Speaker
Well, the, and the other thing too, is it is the, the afterlife in this movie is framed clearly as a reward. Like there's a scene at the start of the movie where he says he's back to us as talking to the other soldiers before they get into a battle. Um, and when Germania and says like, look, like if you're riding and you, and you look around and you notice there's nobody else there, like don't worry, you're already in Elysium. Like you're already, you're already dead. You've already had like an honorable death and you're in the afterlife and.
00:25:40
Speaker
they all cheer. And so I think there's this kind of pressure to like die well, to have done something great, to enter the afterlife in a good position. And as Maximus is dying at the end of the film, it's like cutting back and forth these scenes of the afterlife as he's literally like holding on to the last of his life to kind of finish the job before he killed Commodus and set things right before he passes away. And so it's kind of framed as this reward. And so
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah, in terms of theology, the Stoics don't agree in an afterlife, but what I would say is very un-Stoic is to say, well, I'm going to do a good thing so I can get rewarded by heaven or in the afterlife, whatever way you want. I'm going to do this good thing on earth so I can get a good result for myself later. That's very un-Stoic and it removes this kind of idea of doing the good thing for the good thing's sake.
00:26:36
Speaker
And yeah, like whether or not, whether or not there's a conception of the afterlife, I don't think that necessarily makes those and fall apart. But if you're doing everything because you want to get into heaven or you're doing everything because you want to get into, uh, uh, be rewarded in another life, that is a very unstuck reason to be just.
Critique of Stoicism in 'Gladiator'
00:26:57
Speaker
I wonder if that also is related to the reading of Gladiator as a critique of Stoicism, where Stoicism is naive in part because people do care about these rewards for their good actions. And Commodus is the extreme version of that, but what many of the other characters are, the more positive characters are painted,
00:27:21
Speaker
As are the good gladiators, they care about how the crowd responds and they respond in the right way to the crowd's energy. You know, good soldiers, they care about how they're perceived. And that's part of what it is to die well, is to be respected, to have one's actions echo in eternity, right? Yeah. Yeah. So maybe that's another subtle critique of the film. More Aristotelian than Stoic, perhaps.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, there's a world like, it's not like as soon as you introduce some externals, the picture of what a good person looks like immediately just like flips on its head, right? But it's just like, it is a subtle difference. It's an important difference in Stoic ethics, but what an Aristotelian excellent person looks like is going to look pretty similar to what a Stoic excellent person looked like, I think, except in some extreme counter examples or some fringe cases.
00:28:20
Speaker
Um, but like, yeah, to, to, to care about being honored for doing good deeds is going to look pretty similar to caring about doing good deeds for the sake of doing good deeds. Um, those are gonna, those are gonna manifest pretty similarly. And, um, you know, not really clear where Maximus lands is not clearly to me, uh, uh,
00:28:43
Speaker
I guess maybe you've convinced me and maybe not an anti-stoic character, but certainly not.
Proximo as a Stoic Model
00:28:47
Speaker
It's not the kind of fringe case that establishes a hemostoic.
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's right. I think John Sellers, a past Stoic Conversations guest, has an article where he argues that Maximus is not a Stoic at all, and he's a counterexample to Stoicism. But I think he neglects this point about the Ark, and that in the end he's not all about vengeance. He does make one interesting point stuck out to me last time I saw it as well, which is that
00:29:19
Speaker
plausibly the fellow named Proximo is the best candidate for a stoic model. So Proximo, he's the, in addition to perhaps Marcus Aurelius, of course, but Proximo is the leader of the gladiator school. And initially he has another arc, of course, he's painted as someone who was a
00:29:46
Speaker
former gladiator was granted his freedom by Marcus Aurelius and now is in it. He's in it for a mix of the craft.
00:29:58
Speaker
and for making money. He's a very pecuniary character, perhaps. But towards the end of the film, helps Maximus flee from Rome in order to bring back the Republic fulfill Marcus Aurelius' charge, and in doing so dies a noble death.
00:30:21
Speaker
And with that character, I think you have less of a picture of an afterlife. One of his lines is shadows and dust. No, we are the shadows and dust. You have a great speech from him when people become gladiators. And he says, ultimately, we are all dead men. Sadly, we cannot choose how we can decide how we meet that end in order that we are remembered. And that.
00:30:46
Speaker
view, I think, is at least closer to a stoic one. You have this reclaiming of death, as it were, facing up with mortality. And then those final choices he makes, which are noble ones.
00:31:08
Speaker
Yeah, not doing it for an external reward, considering ourselves ashes in dust, recognizing, look, we lack control here, but we understand how we can have control over how we respond to the situation. These are all pretty stoic sentiments.
00:31:25
Speaker
I think I took Proximo as being a bit more, I don't know if a nihilist or something like he doesn't strike to me to be very, maybe not afraid of death. Maybe somebody who epitomizes memento mori, but not somebody in my view who's committed to the stoic virtues or anything like that. It's certainly not attempting to live the most virtuous life. I don't think.
00:31:44
Speaker
Um, you know, taking, um, making them fight to the death for his own profits. I guess maybe again, stoic in one sense, that, that fear of that lack of fear of death, that focusing on what you can control, but not in kind of the virtue sense.
00:32:02
Speaker
The other thing about Proxima, moving away from the philosophy talk, just to some movie trivia, I was reading some trivia on this and the actor actually died before the filming ended, three weeks before the ending of filming.
Comparison with 'Revolver'
00:32:15
Speaker
So in the original script, Proxima was going to fight Maximus in the arena. It was going to be a gladiator battle. And they had to actually use stunt doubles and CGI and snippets of other scenes to cut together a different storyline for him.
00:32:33
Speaker
watching that with that in mind you can really see it and in the last scene he's in you like never really see his face it's always like the back and all this stuff so an interesting change it would have been quite tragic if they had to fight the other thing I was thinking about
00:32:50
Speaker
what a stoic character would look like, or at least one example of when you would know someone is a stoic. And I mentioned this a long time ago, there's this guy Richie film called Revolver. And I'm going to spoil that one now as well. But the way that film climaxes is the character is this revenge story. And at the very end, the character is like, you know, he's broken into the villain's room and he has a gun and he has a choice to like shoot the villain.
00:33:16
Speaker
And he's just like, Oh, this is actually, this doesn't actually matter. Like I've just contrived this like revenge story and I've given it value, but I could just choose not to give it value anymore and kind of walk away from this confrontation. I don't need to kill a person to end this story. I can just choose to like not consider this revenge as being necessary anymore. And that always struck me as a very stoic response. I would say.
00:33:42
Speaker
The stomach situations are often deflationist or like they're the ones where they say, well, I'm going to choose to turn the other cheek or not make something out of this. I feel like when I feel like with Maximus, it's like we have to now assume, well, why was he doing it? We have all these questions about the why because there was so much action and because there was so much commitment.
00:34:02
Speaker
Um, just trying to give in my mind what a kind of a stoic counter example would be really these extreme things of, you know, well, I'm going to actually def deflect what seems like it would catch me up in a story where it seems like, which often make bad movie characters,
Stoicism in Action Films
00:34:18
Speaker
right? Because movie characters about motivation, action, pressure, putting pressure on these characters to get them to move and kind of emotional stakes. So that's stoic deflation. Doesn't, doesn't work really well. Usually.
00:34:32
Speaker
Works okay in life. That makes bad bad. Yeah, that's right. I suppose there's always a question. Why do they think they're, why do we think these action films are bad? And maybe we, or why do you think ones that are not so stoic are better? And one classic response to that is of course, just cause we're not that stoic. We're, we're kind of vicious. Um,
00:34:57
Speaker
which I think is connected if we want to bring it back to Gladiator. It's sort of interesting that you have this film about gladiators, of course, the spectacle of violence.
00:35:07
Speaker
And instead of going to see the games these days, we will watch movies about them instead, which is certainly an improvement. You know, there is that question, you know, why is that so enjoyable? Why do we need a good character to face something like being in the arena?
00:35:32
Speaker
A very cynical read might just be something like this. Now we feel there needs to be a story. We need more of a story to justify the excitement, the primal excitement of being in the hand-to-hand combat or watching other people in hand-to-hand combat. Maybe that's not even that cynical. There just is a craft.
00:35:57
Speaker
Hand to hand combat is exciting when it's done well and even better when no one is actually perishing or being hurt.
00:36:05
Speaker
Yeah, we just do boxing now, right? And at least nobody's getting killed. Yeah, I mean, I think most of us are non-stoic, and most of us just find it exciting. I also think it's compelling to have these ideas. I mean, Maximus is a hero, right? He's the model. We talk about that kind of stoic role models all the time. It's nice to see a hero overcome.
00:36:34
Speaker
circumstances the same way we get a kick out of tragedy, right? We find there's something cathartic about recognizing that sometimes the hero fails those circumstances. And I guess you could have a hero overcome the circumstances and that could be stoic because the stoic is going to say, look, it's really ultimately not up to you. You know, if it's fated to either go your way or not. So half the stories is going to go the hero's way. Half the stories, it's going to be a tragedy and not go their way. Either way, that person is
00:37:02
Speaker
at the behest of fate, just sometimes with the positive outcome and sometimes with the negative one. Yeah, that's right. Cool. Anything else you want to note in terms of the aspects of the movie that stuck out to you that were in the good side, interesting side?
00:37:19
Speaker
I mean, I do think it also embodies this concept of masculinity. Like I think this is really, Maximus is supposed to be like a man's man, like a hero in a traditional sense, the kind of person who
00:37:34
Speaker
There's a scene where they're about to enter the arena and the character in front of him, like this slave just like pees their pants. You know, there's some people that are just like not built for this and Maximus is built for this. But of the gladiators that are built for this, he's the one who also has
00:37:52
Speaker
um maybe the wisdom or the foresight like he has that courage virtue uh to do these incredible acts of violence when required and to not feel particularly bad or complicated about them but uh mixes that with this also this strong commitment to justice so it's like this
00:38:10
Speaker
It's like this masculine capacity to kill and to fight and to be a warrior mixed with humility and a strong commitment to your family and to the justice of the community. And I guess that's the picture of the perfect man that Gladiator is selling us. And I think it's a pretty good one. I think it's better than a lot of other action films, but I think there's something interesting
00:38:35
Speaker
you know, whether or not we agree or as, as I was saying, as a modern film, as a film that's non-ironic, I think it is putting forward a picture of like, this is what greatness looks like. And I think it gets, I think it gets pretty close. I do. Um, even if it's not stoic, I think it's like, you know, um, it's only a few degrees off. And I think Maximus is a good character. I think a lot of people could learn a lot by trying to model off that. I think in my own life, you know, I've done a lot of martial arts, a lot of fighting.
00:39:05
Speaker
I think in my own life about the active cultivation of the capacity to do hard things and the amount that that creates a sense of agency, a sense of choice. There's some people that doesn't matter how stoic they are. If they're going to enter the arena, they're going to pee their pants and they're going to shut down because they don't really have the capacity to confront situations of that kind of stress.
00:39:30
Speaker
And I think there's something to be said about being both committed to virtue and having the kind of mental fortitude to carry out the acts that virtue requires. Because otherwise, if you're committed to virtue but impotent, you'll just get strangled by your son, like Marcus Aurelius in this movie. And then it's like, well, then what good was that, right?
00:39:55
Speaker
And then they have Lucius' mother, the sister of Commodus, Lucilla. And there's this scene where she confronts Maximus. And Maximus is like, you don't know what it's like. And she's like, I don't know what it's like. I live every day afraid of being killed by Commodus. I'm on your team here, even though it doesn't look like it. But I just can't do anything. I don't have the strength.
00:40:20
Speaker
Uh, or the ability to intervene here where like you do, because you have that capacity for external action. So I guess that's the question is like maybe to throw it back to you. Do you think there's a, do you think Stoics should cultivate this capacity for external action? And then that opens up the capacity, I guess, to fill more roles, roles that you can't fill if you don't have.
00:40:42
Speaker
Uh, I suppose if you don't have courage, I'm trying to think of, cause we, we just, we often don't talk about the, we often focus on the internal and stoicism, but an important part of the internal is the ability to actually navigate, to go out and be courageous, to go out and stand up to the bully, to go out and fight the person that needs to be fought or to protect the people that need to be protected. Um, and Maximus portrays the kind of character, what it's like when you have both the internal character and the capacity to do those things. And.
00:41:12
Speaker
I don't know, there's something to that, but again, I think that might be a bit Aristotelian, but there's something to that, right? The great man who is also an amazing fighter, right? The person who has great character and is also very strong is going to be better in the Aristotelian picture than the person who has great character and is very weak, right?
Masculinity and Heroism in 'Gladiator'
00:41:28
Speaker
In general, I think it seems right to me that Stoics have as a part of becoming
00:41:37
Speaker
a sage for the typical person that part of that progressive path must involve increasing their capacity, increasing their abilities, honing their skills. For many people, those very well could be physical ones. I think there's decent evidence that people who feel physically strong are more likely to feel confident in ways that transfer to their social interactions.
00:42:06
Speaker
Um, and you could, you could see that as being a, that sort of, you know, physical development, which I think is what gladiator, especially with the character of Maximus, uh, is focusing on the competency to work in teams to be an excellent leader is important. And I think the stoic would certainly agree with that. Um,
00:42:34
Speaker
I guess the question is, I think, you know, you could have a reading that, oh, the gladiator just glorifies that one kind of martial virtue, strength and honor. But at the same, I think at the same time, it does give you other models, right? You have the senators who are looking to restore the Republic. And that's a different kind of life, right? I mean, you could say maybe even there,
00:43:03
Speaker
The kinds of skills that you're developing are just going to be are going to be different There can be probably some overlap every for every human We talked about me Sonia's Rufus and how he sees food as a matter of fuel and nutrition So I think ensure that you have the right nutrition is sort of a simple example of where there's going to be physical overlap between many people but
00:43:28
Speaker
or people are going to ideally do the same kind of thing. But I suppose it does depend on the role that you're fulfilling. And whatever it is, you're going to have these different attributes, different skills that you're going to be always, always improving.
00:43:45
Speaker
Yeah, just be good at your role. Some of those roles are going to look like being martial, but not everybody needs to be a fighter. Um, you know, whether it's a Senator or whatever, you know, Senator has a way to be brave and courageous about, um, a better Rome, the, uh,
00:44:05
Speaker
And maybe Maximus wouldn't come off well at the kind of skills of oratory and things like this that the senator requires. That's compelling to me. And then Gladiator is just going to be a fighting film because it's about fighting. But just because it glorifies fighting doesn't mean that's the only kind of way you can be excellent.
00:44:26
Speaker
I actually think it does a reasonably good job at portraying different kinds of people. So you have, I think Maximus just is the core protagonist and he is well-rounded in a way that you probably do want lots of leaders to be, but you also have his...
00:44:41
Speaker
assistant or messenger who is not betrayed in a way that he doesn't exude great strength or something like that. You know, he's supposed to be fast. I think it's like a pickup on speedy. That's what I'm going to be almost speedy. Yeah, that's, that's my role. I'm not trying to.
00:45:00
Speaker
And then on the other side you have in terms of the gladiators, you have super buff guys who are not the leaders. You have that guy who first is smacking around Maximus who turns out to be an ally, but also is someone who Maximus ends up saving and also orchestrates really in the arena as a general, as a leader.
00:45:26
Speaker
And then of course you have Lucilla who's a mother looking out for her son and is like a necessary component for Maximus to realize the charge that Marcus Aurelius gave him because she's that connection to politics, to the Senate. And she risks a lot in helping him do that.
00:45:53
Speaker
all of humanity in two and a half hours, we get the whole, the whole kaleidoscope. Yeah, maybe not, but a whole, I think, yeah, the different kinds of models, I guess.
Empathy and Respect in Conflict
00:46:03
Speaker
Well, we didn't exactly follow the good, bad, interesting structure, but I think we've touched on a number of aspects of each of those. Should we jump to provocative?
00:46:20
Speaker
So maybe not exactly provocative, but any other aspects that jumped out. One part that I haven't mentioned at all is I do really like the quenchiest, one of Maximus' lieutenants, sort of grouses. People should know when they're conquered.
00:46:39
Speaker
which I think is very funny and that maximized response, you know, would you, would you, Quentius, would you know? Would I? Which is a challenging, a challenging response to what is, would otherwise just be an amusing remark.
00:46:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I took that as setting Maximus up as kind of being this ideal hero. He's like, he's going to beat you in battle, but he's also going to respect you while doing it. You know, like he's going to, he's going to perceive, you know, see you as an equal, right? And then he's going to conquer you. Um, I mean, it's just some, some empathy to this other group, right? He's not engaging in war with a kind of disgust. He's not patronizing these people. He's saying, look, they're, they're standing up for themselves and defending their, their home the same way I would defend my home.
00:47:27
Speaker
It's interesting that that kind of sentiment doesn't lead to one of passivity or passivism. It leads to, I'm going to respect them as I then go out and kill many of them in this battle.
Critique of Republican Ideals Portrayal
00:47:38
Speaker
But that's because Max was this person who
00:47:43
Speaker
I mean, there is this line, I've been speaking a lot about how Marcus Aurelius has been portrayed as naive, but there's this line at the beginning of the movie where, you know, Maximus, Marcus Aurelius says, like, why are you fighting for Rome? And Maximus says, because I've been out here and it's the dark and it's awful and Rome is the light. And Marcus Aurelius is like, but you haven't been, or at least you haven't been in decades. You know, what do you know about this place? And so there is this kind of showing that
00:48:11
Speaker
Maximus is fighting for honor and he's fighting for the honor of something that he doesn't even know. He's fighting to protect the idea of something that he hasn't... He's fighting to protect the idea of a city that he hasn't even lived in. Yeah, I think that's right. One criticism of this film is just that it's
00:48:36
Speaker
The idea of restoring the Republic is completely in Congress to that time period, of course. That's not what Marcus Aurelius most likely had in mind. Hardly anyone thought that was feasible.
00:48:55
Speaker
Is that like an American thing? Like, is it like, do most Americans think that the Republic is great and the Emperor is bad? Like, are, were they trying to appeal to contemporary American sensibilities? Like why put, why put the Republic on the pedestal? Why not just have the story be like, Maximus, you be Emperor, because you're a better Emperor than Commodus. Why this?
00:49:14
Speaker
Yeah, I think there are two things there. One is it's American. You almost have this idea of restoring liberal democracy to the liberal people of ancient Rome. I think that's got to be part of it. And I don't know how many people would resonate with a message of we want to restore a just dictatorship of a single ruler or something like this.
00:49:45
Speaker
I think but I think there's also the you do see in the stoics and even in Marcus Aurelius respect and admiration for the stoic opposition the people who assassinated Caesar Marcus Aurelius speaks well of Brutus which is I think suggests that look Marcus Aurelius wasn't thinking about restoring the Republic but he likely did have an idea that
00:50:15
Speaker
a more just political arrangement was possible. And to say that that idea was liberal democracy would I think be probably likely absurd, but that it involved, that it was not, I think that it would involve significant changes to the existing regime I think is not, and is maybe something you can say in defense of what otherwise seems kind of silly, right?
00:50:44
Speaker
Well, I think, I think Marcus Reyes as emperor talking positively about Brutus is pretty interesting. Um, I didn't know that, or I mean, maybe I've read it before who was in the meditations, but that, that stands out as particularly ironic at this moment. Yeah.
00:51:01
Speaker
Yeah, and this idea that we can do better. I mean, certainly, certainly in Evictetus, you get this kind of this rejection of tyrannism. You get it in Marcus Aurelius, but Marcus Aurelius is also kind of touted as the maybe made that you can be the philosopher king and say, well, the philosopher king thing to do is to actually move away from being an emperor, I suppose. Yeah, or I suppose if it's not move away from being an emperor, it's that you have the good version of
00:51:28
Speaker
single man rule monarchy and you also have the terrible version if you think about Aristotle's famous division and you want to do everything you can to ensure that you are not devolving into a tyranny and that might include moving to multi-person rule it might include doing what Brutus and his conspirators did and assassinate a perceived tyrant.
Excitement for 'Gladiator 2'
00:51:57
Speaker
Um, I mean, to end the last thing, when I did some trivia snooping for all those, if you made it to the end of this podcast, you are possibly a super gladiator fan. And there is a gladiator two coming out next year with Paul Mescal and, uh, some of the same actors as the original. So. Yeah, I'm excited. Did you, did you know about it? I didn't know about. I did. Yeah. I knew about that.
00:52:23
Speaker
Um, but I don't know. I didn't know when exactly it was supposed to come out. So let's go. All right. Awesome. Well, we'll have to do, uh, I have to do another review of that one. Yeah. All right. Thanks for listening.