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Rebecca Mills
5.2k Plays1 year ago
Rebecca Mills is an artist and arts professional who has independently curated exhibits, facilitated events, wrote a successful one act play, and is a creative writer as well. She freelances as a teaching artist and arts educator, having taught youth and young adults through workshops, special programs, and as an adjunct professor. Her primary medium is oil painting with mixed media such as glitter, sequins, found objects, and very feminine materials. Rebecca's work is directly influenced by transcendentalism; involving science, philosophy, history, and discussions based on cultures, religions, and the ancient past. She is an activist for cow protection, veganism, and environmental preservation / restoration.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:03
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host, Ken Zalante. Editor and producer, Peter Bauer. The subtitle of this show is indulgent tangents. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what I can do. I can't help there. I'll try my best. I'll do my best.
Guest Introduction: Rebecca Mills
00:00:33
Speaker
Honesty straightforward This is this is Ken Volante and this is the something rather than nothing podcast and I'm super excited to introduce Rebecca Mills before I start going on Rebecca. I just wanted to say hi and welcome to the show. It's great to see you
00:00:53
Speaker
Thank you, it's great to see you too. Thank you, this is great for inviting me again. Yeah, it's nice to be able to connect with you out here in Oregon, which actually some wild weather, hopefully nothing interrupts us. Yeah, it's up to 65 hour mile per hour wind gusts today. Oh wow. It's wild, but it's as calm as- Are you in the mountains?
00:01:18
Speaker
Nah, just on regular old land, but it's whipping through. Yeah. So, and, uh, we're reaching Rebecca from, uh, the great state of, uh, New York and, um,
Rebecca's Artistic Journey
00:01:31
Speaker
really excited. I've counted your art on the ultra plastic galaxy, uh, website that you have and you on Instagram, honey do.
00:01:40
Speaker
milkshake and we'll make sure everybody gets those tags and such but um one of the things I wanted to ask you Rebecca starting off our conversation is um When did you see yourself? You know as an artist when when did you start walking around and being people like that's the artists or you saying out loud like Yeah, that's me. What when did that happen? Do you know when that happened? I
00:02:05
Speaker
Yes, but pretty much that happened when I was a teenager because I my first job was at an art center. And so, like, before I even started really working there, I was in a program that
00:02:24
Speaker
Like when you're able to work, it was really for like 13, 14 year olds, 15 year olds. Like when you're able to work, how do you apply to a job? How do you write a resume? What do you wear to your interview? Like it taught us all of these things. And then when I completed the program, they gave us a list of places to apply to and they would help us get a job or help us get an internship.
00:02:48
Speaker
So out of the list of everything, it was like all types of stuff that didn't sound interesting to me. But when I saw that there was an art center, I was like, Oh, an art center sounds cool. And at the time, I didn't really know anything about art. Sure. But like, I knew art was a subject that I was stronger in. And so I was like, you know, let me try this out. And so when I first started working there,
00:03:11
Speaker
and being surrounded by art and being like meeting artists and seeing like what goes into putting a exhibit together or running a center or classes, things of that nature. I was like, wow, I can really see myself doing this. And so from there, I kept pursuing art.
Identity and Expression in Art
00:03:29
Speaker
And then I would say like, because I studied painting and creative writing in college. So I would say like it was after I graduated that I was like,
00:03:39
Speaker
No, I really, really am an artist. There's nothing else that I could really do with myself or see myself as. Right now, I work as a supervisor at Whole Foods. And even though that has nothing really to do with the art world, it's like I'm working a career that is kind of, it's paying my bills, but it's also like
00:04:03
Speaker
not making me bring work home with me. So I'm able to leave work and be like, wow, okay, let me focus on my art and let me think about what it is I want to do. So that's where I'm at. You know, this is like my life. Yeah. Yeah. And I liked that. I, um, I talked to artists a lot of times because it's an interesting question because I, you know, sometimes I ask it as if it's a choice or something. I think I've asked it long enough and just being like, you know,
00:04:32
Speaker
when did you see yourself and become the artist? Because one of the things I've discovered in talking to artists is that it's in that announcement, in that behavior, in that term that people are like, okay, now I can, I don't know, maybe do more or maybe have more freedom to express myself because this is how I interact with the world as part of my identity. So. Yeah. And I relate to that too because I,
00:05:02
Speaker
I love the expressive side of life.
Creativity, Philosophy, and Outer Space
00:05:06
Speaker
And I feel like with so many other types of things, there's not much room to be
00:05:17
Speaker
individual thinking or rather creative thinking. And so with studying the art, specifically, you know, visual arts and creative writing, it has allowed me to take my worldview and put it into something that I think I can share with people. And so I mean, it's interesting your philosophy, because I love reading philosophy and thinking philosophically, and I love history and science and things like that. But it's like,
00:05:47
Speaker
I wouldn't necessarily say, okay, I'm going to be a biochemist or I'm going to write this philosophical book, but I can take all of this subject matter and compile it into my art and filter it in ways where it's very serious and you can be contemplated over the work or you can appreciate
00:06:08
Speaker
The beauty of it, you know, like it gives that creativity to what's serious in this world, you know. Yeah. And I wanted to jump in on that too, because that's actually what my mind was thinking because we were talking about like seeing yourself as artists. And then you're talking about like that expression, which your pain is. I want to jump into that because like for me, one of the things that I think is really cool is, um, you know, on the show with the big questions, you know, philosophy and all that, I think of science as well. And I think of outer space immediately.
00:06:35
Speaker
Like, you know, so, um, and I see, I see that that's, that's in yours because, um, I've had a couple scientists come on the show and it's like the something rather than nothing or why are we doing all these big things? But I wanted to get into, into your painting in that, in that outer space in that type of world. Let's talk about that world. Yeah. Um, in, in outer space while you had me at the,
00:07:01
Speaker
the mermaids that were in outer space, like I was, you hadn't then. But tell us about, you're talking about putting it into your art and talking about those things and seeing them and contemplating. Let's get into those paintings. Tell me what you're doing with those in that world you create.
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah, so let me just start with why I use outer space to begin with. Do you know who Sun Ra is? Sure do. Sun Ra. Sun Ra, I discovered him when I went to go see this exhibit at the Studio Museum in Harlem many, many years ago. I think it was
00:07:44
Speaker
2013 or something like I can't remember but it was amazing the type of art that was created as a result of his music and I was like who is this person like this art is great who is this person so when I started looking more and more into Sun Ra and thinking about outer space being this endless landscape of endless infinite possibilities
00:08:09
Speaker
then that's when I expanded my view entirely and rethinking or repositioning myself not just on this earth but in existence overall. So I started there and really thinking about
00:08:28
Speaker
not just the material nature, but the transcendence of material nature. Because in order for us to even explore space, we have to think of outer space in transcendental aspects. So even though science doesn't necessarily think of transcendentalism, science is thinking empirically
00:08:49
Speaker
But my thing is we have to use these special tools in order to see what is otherwise invisible to the eye. And even though scientists won't call that transcendence, that's what it really comes down to, even to the atomic scale. We can't see atoms, but even to the atomic scale, like what is powering an atom? What is behind all of these things? So that is always a looming thing.
00:09:16
Speaker
that's on my mind. And I was raised Christian. I converted to being a Vaishnava. And if you don't know what Vaishnava is, Vaishnava is a form of Hinduism, specifically people who worship Krishna as the Supreme Person. So
00:09:34
Speaker
When you're Vaishnava, you have an understanding of the universe on an atomic scale or on a massive scale, but ultimately in a transcendental lens. But even before I converted to Vaishnava, I still had this very spiritual and transcendental view of the world entirely. So I'm applying this to outer space.
00:09:57
Speaker
And another thing to think of with Sun Ra is, another thing to think of with Sun Ra is his emphasis of there's other worlds out there, like there's Black people in the future, like there's always been
00:10:12
Speaker
black people, but like, there's diversity, you know, it's not just white people that are going to be the ones to be able to explore space. It's anybody that has the ambition to it. And so that was another emphasis for me is to say like,
00:10:29
Speaker
we as human beings, citizens of this world, we're capable of thinking beyond this world, and this is how you can do
Cultural Influences and Transcendence
00:10:40
Speaker
it. So that's a premise to a lot of the work that I'm doing. So then I started to develop my landscape by situating it in the ultra-plastic galaxy. So plastic and arts,
00:10:59
Speaker
It comes from plasticity and the capability to transform things. So this is a term that is used in Surrealism. So for instance, the best example that everyone can understand is Salvador Dali and how he melted the clock. And that in itself is a plastic use of art.
00:11:19
Speaker
taking things that we understand and transforming it or even the human body like how is the human body formable and how I can contort it and do different things with it in art or taking an idea and making it plastic by say like for instance the mermaids right so the mermaids are actually based off of the transatlantic slave trade and what it is is that I saw the painting by Turner where it was his slave ship painting and that influenced me
00:11:48
Speaker
By me thinking like wow, like this is something this is these are historic events that happened But we're not necessarily always talking about like the actual passage, you know What was happening in that passage and there are I mean there are plenty of like topics around it. There's art around it, but it's like How can we heal from it? How can we think about what happened to those people like transformation or something exactly nation? Yeah
00:12:18
Speaker
Exactly. And so that's where these paintings come from is the transformation of the people. So I'm not thinking of this in a painful way. This is me actually healing by saying our ancestors, the people like me who are of African descent, our ancestors, a part of religious belief and spiritual belief for them was knowing that there is an afterlife.
00:12:46
Speaker
And how do we transgress that afterlife?
00:12:49
Speaker
that was based off of your mentality. So what would happen is like there were, there were and still are like, you know, if you look at voodoo, like voodoo is something that was created or formed rather when enslaved people came to the United States. The conjure as well. Right. Yeah. Like these type of things like they came like, you know, it's a, it's a combination of different religious beliefs that were
00:13:19
Speaker
kind of commagulated together because of enslavement and they wanted to hold on to that historic past. But you can see that there's very elaborate rituals for when a person passes away so that they can help transgress the spiritual world on their own. But without these rituals, how do they still get to that place? So my thing was when they entered the water, they
00:13:48
Speaker
were able to transform their bodies to survive in the water, but they don't live in this realm. They live in another world. So another like one way to think of it is like there was a portal
00:14:01
Speaker
that was opened or created for them so that they can enter to another world into this ultra-plastic galaxy and become these beautiful deep sea mermaids. Well they're kind of grotesque looking but for me grotesque is also beautiful. So they're these very beautiful mermaids that live in the deep sea or sometimes come above the waters or
00:14:23
Speaker
you know, like have all these interesting things. They create their own light by bioluminescence and things of that nature. But then also water itself, like, you know, how water has such a history because of the transatlantic slave trade. So water plays water itself plays a role in my work. So sometimes I'll paint bodies of water thinking about how we need water to survive, thinking about like that slave trade or even just thinking about how water
00:14:53
Speaker
um, you know, the causal ocean or, um, how water plays a role in Hinduism. So, you know, connecting all of these things that otherwise seem like very disconnected, but how water connects everything, like literally water connects everyone on this planet because most of this planet is water.
00:15:13
Speaker
Also, we need water to survive, and currently we're destroying our water systems by pollution. And so it's important to think about water if you need this. So that's where that specific topic comes from in my art, and it is a major topic. But then I expand on.
00:15:41
Speaker
into other series. So I will paint landscapes or it's not really lands, but it's universe scapes. I'll paint images of the universe and think about how with our technology, we're measuring the universe using light.
00:16:01
Speaker
and how light travels through our universe. So when it comes to measurement of space, if you look at an image of like different universes or thousands of stars, it's actually red means further away and blue means closer when it comes to measuring. So knowing that I try to situate the paintings in a reverse
00:16:31
Speaker
color theory or even like thinking about temperature, how the lighter the color, the hotter it is and the darker the color, the cooler it is. And so it's a lot of opposites that are kind of happening. And so I'm exploring color theory through the universe and in a way
00:16:54
Speaker
These are also very transcendental because when we look up at the night sky, we're not seeing these. We're seeing stars that are looking blue and bright. And then, you know, it'll be like a nice midnight blue with some different shades of colors. But I can't see with my own eyes all of these things that this very expensive technology that we have is recording it. Yeah. So the
00:17:20
Speaker
These things are playing a role and then I do a lot of research on indigenous groups from around the world.
00:17:28
Speaker
for instance, like the tribal groups of the Americas or the tribal groups of like West or South Africa and specifically Vedic culture in India. Sometimes I look at like some European, but I really try to focus on the cultures that are underrepresented
Philosophical Intersection in Art
00:17:52
Speaker
Yeah. And like relate back to the subject matter that I'm doing where they these civilizations looked at the universe and recorded it scientifically and were able to tell time by looking at the stars or like, you know, had explanations for how the universe was created, specifically Vedic culture has extensive explanations for how the universe is created.
00:18:22
Speaker
And so I have art where it's seemingly abstract at first, but the more I speak about it, it's talking about the matter being formed from life. So one thing that is heavily emphasized in Vashnava
00:18:46
Speaker
Vaishnava culture or Vaishnava philosophy or science is that matter can't create matter. It has to be life that creates matter. So it was something that existed before that started to formulate all these things in order for us to have a physical material universe. And that's what powers it. So the atom didn't exist first, the atom
00:19:10
Speaker
is the result of something existing already. So these are very complicated things, but I try to make it tangible by putting it into works of art. And I know that the mermaids seems like a far off topic now, because it's like, wait, now we're talking about atoms. But for me, this is all relative, because it's about transformation. It's about transcendentalism. And it's about how I'm thinking of
00:19:40
Speaker
how West, specifically West Africans, because that's where a lot of enslaved people come from, how these cultures have these topics already in their philosophies and cultures. And the relation of it all. Yeah, the questions have been considered because you haven't encountered it and it could be deeply embedded in
00:20:07
Speaker
Hey, I haven't had a guest in quite a long time. I think answered the question, why is there something rather than nothing without me asking it? I think that's in there. I'll ask it again. Yeah, we'll keep talking. Anything that you missed.
00:20:24
Speaker
I'm deeply intrigued by a lot of what you had to say. And one cool thing I heard early on was the Sun Ra. I studied philosophy formally, and I guess it was a little anecdote. I had a friend of mine
00:20:43
Speaker
I was a jazz and music guy. Now, he was studying his PhD in philosophy at the same time, but I swear, I'd be at a party or see him socially, somebody pull me aside and he's like, Ken, Sun Ra. You just got to listen to Sun Ra.
00:21:00
Speaker
studying Nietzsche and Kierkegaard and Aquinas. He's like, Sun Ra. Yeah, there was some. So I can't miss asking this question, placing Sun Ra in the forefront here, the conversation. Tell me about what you said about the art that comes out of Sun Ra and the music and what he had to say. What's all that about? What comes out of that?
00:21:28
Speaker
Yeah, so what comes out of Sun Ra is literally why I started making art based in the universe. So first off, his compositions are very complicated and it's very difficult for people to casually sit and listen to because it's not meant for that. His music is meant for people to, it's meant for people to reach a higher spiritual vibration.
00:21:55
Speaker
So that's something that Sun Ra has emphasized in a lot of his interviews is that he creates music for the soul. He creates music for the for the body, the mind, the soul and the spirit. So that in itself is he's creating transcendental music. He also creates music based off of the sounds of outer space. So if you ever listen to first off, NASA has a sound cloud. I don't know if you knew this, but NASA has.
00:22:22
Speaker
I'm interested in space sounds, but I didn't know they have a cloud. They have a sound cloud. So if you listen to NASA SoundCloud, NASA has recordings from planets and how planets communicate with each other. So that's essentially gravity is, let's say you have Jupiter.
00:22:42
Speaker
Jupiter is sending signals to all of the different moons around it in order for them to maintain that gravitational pull. And so if you listen to those sounds being transmitted to one another, it's very much on par with the type of music that Sun Ra makes.
00:23:01
Speaker
So, wait a second. So, but in a certain sense, like holding that right there, he was like this like a telescopic receiver for some of this and somehow with that connection. He definitely was. And another very important thing to understand is Sun Ra
00:23:17
Speaker
And this has been recorded in many different books that speak about his life history, but Sun Ra was abducted by aliens. And in that abduction, he spoke to what he says is the creator of the universe and received a lot of information on how to help people.
00:23:39
Speaker
but also received a lot of information on how to make the music that he does. So when he came back to Earth, he realized he's not from this Earth. He's from Saturn. And that's why he said he's Saturn. He also said he's an angel. And it's very important to know that Sunrot was
00:24:01
Speaker
a very religious person. So he understood the transcendental nature of what he was doing and purposely did his best to help people. So he finds his music healing
00:24:16
Speaker
And I find that I want my art to be like that, where it's healing to look at because it's beautiful. Like ultimately, whether you understand what I'm doing or not, I mainly want people to appreciate the beauty of it. That's why I use like glitter, these reflective materials. And if you look at Sun Ra's costumes when he performed, they wore these very beautiful, glittery, shiny,
00:24:44
Speaker
astrological looking like cosmic looking and so that influences the visual nature of my art. Another thing with Sun Ra is how
00:25:00
Speaker
how to reject the Westernized understanding of outer space in itself. Because he knew, because he was in outer space, he knew that there's ways to travel in outer space.
00:25:15
Speaker
But we prevent ourselves from being able to do it because we're not thinking of outer space in a spiritual way. We're thinking of outer space in a greedy way. So
Veganism and Environmental Activism
00:25:25
Speaker
we're not able to actually get there to achieve that traveling because we're too fixated on trying to colonize everything.
00:25:32
Speaker
But if we rethink how we want to travel outer space, we'll be able to travel it better because we are being prevented from accessing that information. And it's important to understand that because
00:25:47
Speaker
There are other living beings out there. There are higher powers out there and they force us into staying on this earth until we're able to be intelligent enough to leave it and we're currently not intelligent enough
00:26:04
Speaker
to be able to travel anywhere because of how we utilize our current resources. And so this actually goes into veganism. That was one of the questions. Yeah, I was going to like we haven't rehearsed audience. We haven't rehearsed at all. But like I have my notes here and the question I knew I just ask it a different way. But the question, why vegan? I, Rebecca, I've been a vegan since
00:26:33
Speaker
I've been a vegan since 1995. That's amazing. Yeah. I was a vegetarian. One of those kind of strange, everybody has their story, but I was a vegetarian. I think meat eater, I was a vegetarian for about a week and a half, two weeks. And I actually had finished the very influential book, Animal Liberation by Peter Singer. Oh, I got to read that. Yeah. Which deeply impacted me.
00:27:01
Speaker
And so yeah, so then I was vegan. I wanna say something. It comes up on the show, but it's not primary. As important it is to me, I know you've been active in this year and I know in you talking about your paintings and talking about water and talking about our resources, this is embedded in our conversation. So tell me how that's embedded in your life. Why vegan?
00:27:30
Speaker
connected to the art all that stuff yeah yeah so veganism is connected to my art because we have this one planet you know like it has everything we need and we actually don't need to go anywhere else because if you look at the other planets they are like terrible landscapes like I don't know like
00:27:52
Speaker
I mean, I know I'm always looking at images of planets, so I don't know how much people know about other planets, but Jupiter is terrible. It's horrifying. There's constant storms. There's different temperatures. There's no way we could survive on a planet like that. Mercury
00:28:10
Speaker
is hot. We would burn. We would burn before we even got there. We would just set on fire before we even got there. So it's like we don't actually need to look at any other planet. We can just stay on this one. But we are destroying it for the sake of raising cheap beef. And another thing is we're destroying it
00:28:35
Speaker
Not only we're destroying the actual land itself, we're destroying water by our mass industrial animal farming, animal factor farming. This destroys our water. This destroys our ecosystem. It takes away biodiversity because they're cutting down trees and getting rid of so much habitable land for the sake of factory farming.
00:29:02
Speaker
So it's important to think about that first and then to think once we let animals go extinct,
00:29:13
Speaker
We can't get them back. We are incapable. We can't even produce seeds. We can't invent seeds. Once the seeds are gone, that's it. Once that grass is gone, that's it. Once the soil is destroyed, it takes so long for us to be able to restore it. So we do these things.
00:29:36
Speaker
very irresponsibly and we're destroying this one planet that we have. And so I emphasize veganism because we should think twice about why we're eating the food that we eat and how it destroys the planet that we're on. We have a pollution crisis going on and it's actually less about cars
00:30:00
Speaker
and more about factory farming. It's factory farming that is causing the most pollution on this planet for the air, for the environment, for everything. And if we stopped factory farming, if we cut down, if we closed down solder houses, and if we focused more on wholesome food, we would actually be in a much better place.
00:30:20
Speaker
Another thing is we're losing out on nutrient dense foods by factory farming because people think eating meat is more important than having nutrient dense vegetables. And so people aren't getting what they really need from their food. And we actually have to eat more vegetables, like we actually have to eat either more vegetables or like
00:30:44
Speaker
specifically go to certain grocery stores where they care about the wholesomeness of the food. Otherwise, you're not actually getting the nutrients that you need. These things are important for life. And so I emphasize veganism in my art because it's like, what are we going to do when everything's gone? We're on this planet. Where are we going to go? Where are we going?
00:31:08
Speaker
Like this is an existential crisis. So in my way of dealing with this existential crisis is to be a vegan activist. And I do have some paintings. They're not on my website, but I do have some paintings of like God
00:31:27
Speaker
Like different gods crying or like a God coming down and bringing animals to us because we can't get animals from anywhere else. Like it's, it's important. Like one, like, again, I just want to say once an animal goes extinct, where are we going to get that animal from? Right? Like we have tigers that are dying. We have lions that are dying. We have elephants that are dying.
00:31:50
Speaker
there are hundreds of animals that go extinct every single year and it's like these animals cannot be brought back and they die they go extinct because of greed and because of pollution and because of destroying the biodiversity of this earth so we need to focus more on
00:32:14
Speaker
on revitalizing and restoring what is already here and specifically cow protection because cows are the most abused of all like yeah this is also why I'm vegan and
00:32:30
Speaker
Because dairy farming alone, they take away the calf once the cow gives birth, and that causes distress to the cow. Animals are sentient beings. They are aware of what's happening.
00:32:46
Speaker
Like, anyone, I mean, any mother giving birth is going to be depressed once you take her baby away. And like, not only that, they forced her, like they forced and seminated her. And now they're taking away her baby and causing her distress and leaving her in crammed conditions. So it's like, we need to think more about how to protect these cows. I mean, again, I'm Vashnava, like, it's well known Indian Hindu culture,
00:33:13
Speaker
She cares deeply about the cows. Essentially, the cow is our mother. If you drink her milk, then she's your mother. If you don't drink her milk, you can at least appreciate her. But if you're drinking her milk, that's your mother. You want to treat your mother like that? Are you going to eat your mother? No. So then you treat her like that. You protect her. You give them living. You give them better living environments. You let her stay with her calf. Let them be free and happy. You can have happy cows and still drink their milk.
00:33:40
Speaker
It's fine, but if you're abusing them and forcing them to do all these things then you're not helping them so with all that said this this plays a role in my art also because I
00:33:57
Speaker
Like I said before, there's themes of water, there's some paintings that I've made of animals, but ultimately, it's also beyond just the paintings itself, it's the life that goes along with me, and that's why on my website,
00:34:16
Speaker
I have the vegan living part because it's like this goes into thinking about living on this planet and knowing that there are other worlds out there, but also we're here and we can protect this one. Yeah, I appreciate your comments and I think I found my thinking
00:34:38
Speaker
just recently with the more consciousness of seeing the severity of the crisis, environmental crisis. And for me for a long time, knowing, um,
00:34:50
Speaker
I think a lot about water and runoff pollution and the concentration of waste in just abnormal, extremely abnormal conditions for living beings. That's the thing that I think I've reacted to over time. And I've felt that as things are right now that compared to when I was younger, the situations changed in my brain for this is that
00:35:18
Speaker
doing what we're doing is actually not an option anymore. It's not only is it not sustainable, it's not a viable option on the scale that we do it as a model. And I think that's borne out by what we've seen. And so that's the piece where it kind of changes the debate a little bit. Like if something moves to the point of a production model and what's happening to animals was the point where
00:35:46
Speaker
as you can't conduct yourselves and behave this way anymore, then it becomes a different discussion or non-discussion or something when it comes to activism. And I think that's where vegans or activists, environmental activists get what they have. And then on the outside where people aren't as intimately connected to these things, they're like, stop yelling about, you know,
00:36:15
Speaker
stop yelling about the environment in the cows. I just want to eat. And it's like, well, that's, that's a problem. You do that eating a lot and the impact of what you eat. Exactly. Yeah. So, um, I really appreciate your comments too about thinking about and, uh, and, and, and embedding it. And again, the, I want to say metaphor, but just the, the image and your use of water that really stuck in my head and then seeing that right now and thinking about that. Um,
00:36:44
Speaker
in your paintings out of curiosity to as far as I did see that you do do some activist work with with with vegan some more you know and and
00:37:02
Speaker
I wanted to ask you within that too, I think you mentioned using art. I think in terms of this, so I'm a labor guy, a labor union guy. Think about what art does to rattle, transform, disrupt. What does art do for you when you're talking about the vegan, the vegan stuff? Like, how do you use that? Activists, I'm thinking. Let's see.
00:37:31
Speaker
It's kind of hard because I've been trying to find ways to make it more apparent in my work. I know the water is subtle. That is a subtle thing in so many ways, because there's so many conversations around the water itself. But that's something that I was looking forward to doing for next year, is paint heavily emphasizing more and more about how animals are
00:38:01
Speaker
Like, you know, again once they go extinct, we can't get them back or like, you know, the abuse that's something that I wanted to explore more by incorporating deities in my work and showing the divine nature of living beings, and, you know, the fact that
00:38:19
Speaker
they're sentient, they have emotions, they have thoughts, they have societies and cultures. It's not as complex as human beings, but these are scientific things that have been proven that cows have best friends and cows have emotions. And their moves, just like cats or dogs,
00:38:41
Speaker
Depending on the octave depending on the expression like they're speaking, you know And we have to think about these things that they they're doing it on a different level than us I have had um
00:38:53
Speaker
So I've made little postcards and things like this, but I really want to focus on a body of work that emphasizes this. I already have some paintings doing this, but I want to create more of a body of work emphasizing it to go with those paintings.
00:39:13
Speaker
So that's a goal. The veganism is more of a goal, pushing more towards that. But to start out with, that's why I made a section on my website. I've tried to get more involved with face-to-face activism, but because I'm such a busy person, I'm just like, okay, let me find different ways to do it.
00:39:34
Speaker
And everybody does it different. As a matter of fact, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a loud mouth, but when it comes to the vegan stuff, I'm not seen as that for me, it's always been, this is what I do.
Art's Therapeutic Role and Education
00:39:47
Speaker
I'll talk about and I'll say what I believe. Um, but it's just like an area where you can ask me about it. And this is the thing that I do. And everybody has a different dynamic, um, you know, in, in.
00:40:01
Speaker
Within that, Rebecca, I wanted to ask you, we're speaking with Rebecca Mills, artist, teacher, Sun Ra fan, and everybody go dig into some Sun Ra. I think that's the message we got so far. But Rebecca, art's super important to you. What is art? Art? Yeah, what is art?
00:40:29
Speaker
Yeah, so art for me is when a person makes the conscious decision to transform an object or to transform a thought or a concept into something that is tangible enough for a person to receive it. So for instance, I'm mainly a painter, so I'm transforming the stretcher bars, the canvas, the oil paint into a tangible object for you to receive it. Most recently, I had a book made. So I wrote a book of poems.
00:40:59
Speaker
The poems were dedicated are dedicated to Krishna and their love poems. And for me, the words are also art. And then I made a painting for the cover that is also like a work of art. So I'm transforming all of these different materials into something tangible, which is a book.
00:41:21
Speaker
And that in itself is a work of art. I mean, I also think of Marcel Duchamp how he would take objects and reconfigure them so that we can think about what are these objects to us. And so that's also a way to think about what art means to me is, you know, like it can be anything, but I'm recontextualizing something so that you can understand it from this perspective.
00:41:49
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. And I think I really connected to you the terms you use in describing your thinking of transcendence, transformation, you know, that it's holding these elements, but it's the artists like repositioning and reshaping that I enjoy. And that display, I adore painting. And so I think you can see your universe that you're talking about,
00:42:16
Speaker
you know, in the paintings that you have. Is art now more important than it has been? Like you get these, you know, we come out of the pandemic, we've talked about the environment. I could go on endlessly about political behavior, a scene for me in the United States of America and worldwide. Like, so then you got art. And like, is art more important than ever? Like right now to like,
00:42:46
Speaker
I don't know, help? Yeah, honestly, I think art is always important. And I think that
00:42:56
Speaker
because the arts keep getting defunded. Yes, it is more important than ever, because people need to understand if you keep defunding this, you're going to have a bunch of very depressed, miserable people will not be able to like see the world will not be able to understand it. And this is like me coming for as an art teacher. You know, like I have taught in schools, I've done things. But a lot of the reason why I don't get to do that as much is because
00:43:23
Speaker
the programs I was teaching got defunded or like the organizations I was working for like didn't need me anymore or like they can't find a way to like make it validated enough to justify why they have an art teacher here. So it's like, you know, the casual nature of like the work relationship when it comes to educated people and smart people like yourself, there's a casual relationship within the academics as well, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:53
Speaker
And I think, yeah, I think specifically in academia, like how can you expect well-rounded adults
00:44:04
Speaker
if they're not actually well rounded, if you just have them in a very narrow perspective of what is relevant, you know? Like if you're saying only math, science, and specifically US history, and like limited US history, is it important?
00:44:26
Speaker
You know what I mean? That's version two. Rebecca and I are going to talk about the version of American history. That's a whole other thing. But if you're saying only this is important,
00:44:41
Speaker
then it actually makes it much, much harder for the people who want to beautify the world. How can you even have architecture if people don't know that they can artistically create a house or even industrial design? How can you do any of these things if you're not teaching people
00:45:02
Speaker
you know, design itself, even if you like, you know, for instance, like the Met, I don't know if you've been to the Met before, but the Met is like been to the Met before. No, yeah. Well, you know, it's a well known place. It's massive. And it hosts a wide variety of things. But they have, they have a whole section dedicated to design where it's like chairs, furniture, clocks, things like that.
00:45:26
Speaker
And it's important to know that these objects can also be seen as art if it's designed in a way. Like, what attracts people? You know, beauty attracts people. How can people understand beauty if you're not giving them the foundation, if you're not giving them the knowledge or history of what has been and what could be? You know, you're not giving people that space.
00:45:52
Speaker
I mean, for instance, when I was teaching as an adjunct, and again, that's another program where it's like, who knows when I'll be teaching it again, because the school was like, you know, there's so many complicated things with it. But when I was teaching as an adjunct, none of my students were like, majoring in art because it wasn't specifically a class, it wasn't a school specifically dedicated to art, they had my course as an elective. So all of them were either like,
00:46:20
Speaker
studying culinary arts or studying business or studying all these things. They come in my class and they're learning something different. And for them, it was therapeutic. And that should be emphasized enough, like giving people a therapeutic outlet is so important because then you have less people that are like lashing out or less people like finding weight, you know, like
00:46:48
Speaker
abusive ways to handle their problems. So even just giving people that much is important, especially after the pandemic.
00:46:58
Speaker
You have people who severely are depressed because they were trapped inside, lost their job or lost this or lost that. Maybe even got sick and like that. Physiologically could be simple. Right. An outcropping of physiological changes due to disease. Exactly. And it's like if you give people a creative outlet, if you tell people like it doesn't have to look like a perfect thing, like it can be this, it can be that. If people are able to comprehend this, if people are able to use their hands and
00:47:28
Speaker
do skill building with their hands and understand that art can be anything as long as you have someone guiding you or you have something that you can look at and be inspired by or even people knowing that you can go to a museum and not know anything about what's there, you can enjoy it because you were trained to look at it. These types of things matter so much.
00:47:57
Speaker
Yeah, and it can have that impact. And I think there's a lot underneath what you're saying when you're describing the painting as far as what you can see, but also what's underneath and what's embedded within the meaning. And I think that's what's fun to explore those elements, not just to pick it apart, but to maybe understand it more with
00:48:23
Speaker
with the representations. I know like art feels like I think the answer like on the roll of art a lot of times is like in the back of my head is like human beings born into the earth and the sky is always going to collapse like like this something you know that there's going to be God's wrath or I mean it just seems like we have this kind of
00:48:45
Speaker
So I think about, is the situation different now than it has been? I think it fundamentally is. I think it fundamentally is different right now on the question of habitability, like you said. And I think in response to that, I think art can be a helpful place to look for as far as whether it's transcending or counteracting that or
00:49:10
Speaker
shit understanding it right like yes like that picture like said it to me and I'm talking and talking can't explain it but that picture yeah so yeah and even for myself like so I have um I am I like meditate I've done a lot of yogurt practices so I have
00:49:37
Speaker
done yoga practices, which opened up myself. And so I've had astral projection experiences. And in some ways, it's like I accepted insanity to see this because it's like there are things that have opened or like shown itself to me that it's like, how could I like explain this to anybody? I'm like, I feel like a crazy person. I'm like, am I schizophrenic? But it's like, no, this is like a part of
00:50:07
Speaker
being a very spiritual, transcendental person. So one way for me to kind of channel that has been through painting and writing and in expressing this ecstasy that I have experienced, because that's really what it comes down to. It's like I have this ecstasy of the soul or ecstasy of the spirit, and I can transform it into my art
00:50:29
Speaker
So I do actually have some, I have a body of work too, based off of astral projection, based off of these like very type of seemingly psychedelic experiences. And that for me is also like an outlet. And I think for to be able to create such things is the therapy in itself is like the, this beautiful outlet. And I think,
00:50:58
Speaker
to be able to express that too to people like I don't I don't suffer from mental health issues but I think for people who do have mental health issues if they're able to see art like this and know that it's coming from a place from somebody who has like very introspective very like spiritual things it's like oh wow like I can I can kind of understand my own
Indigenous Philosophies and Reality
00:51:22
Speaker
mental landscape too, you know, and because a lot of things a lot of times like people who don't know much about art, they think that like art has to be a certain way or because you know, they're not exposed to much of it. So like, they think art has to be a certain way or all art has to be realistic or like, you know, they're intimidated by abstract expressionism.
00:51:44
Speaker
or like, you know, they don't know what real art is. So it's like, I think, you know, making this, and I, I say psychedelics, there's no other way to describe it, but making this like very psychedelic. Yeah. Like making this very psychedelic kind of art, you know, it could give them a way to say like, wow, there's something that relates to me, you know, something that relates to like my mind. And that that's also important. Like, you know, they can see and know without knowing, you know? Yeah. Um,
00:52:13
Speaker
I wanted to mention too, so I didn't want to forget about your reference to a lot of the knowledge and wisdom within indigenous cultures around, like that you had mentioned and that you looked at. And I just wanted to mention, like on the show, my own personal deep experience of learning with indigenous guests I've had. I've had guests from over 16 indigenous nations. Yeah.
00:52:42
Speaker
on, on the show. And I found that one of the, one of the greatest things that would happen for me was a fundamental questioning of reality in terms that we use to understand what's around now as a philosopher. I felt I've always done that, but I think I've done that in a very Western colonial way, not even realizing just the inertia of what you encounter.
00:53:09
Speaker
And I believe there's kind of like a radical, beautiful transformation. I have experience of question and being like, what do I need to see? What is being presented? What fact did I lazily take to be the case that is not only questionable, it's 100% false. Dealing with that. And so I appreciate you bringing out your experience of what you've learned and think about to come through in your art.
00:53:39
Speaker
I don't, that's why it's good to talk about her. I think sometimes too. I appreciate that too. Cause I actually, um, my interest in philosophy started with taking a metaphysics class and it wasn't at all what I thought it would be. I was like, wait a minute. You guys are doing everything to prove God is not real. This is not what I was expecting. And so that, that was interesting cause I'm like, okay, this is very different than
00:54:05
Speaker
you know, if I were to learn about African philosophy, because African philosophy, it's talking about how we understand the transcendental nature of the world. And it's not an emphasis on empirical nature. It's not an emphasis on like saying, you know, all these things. And so I get I get what you're saying. So like, I, I at least have had the privilege to kind of understand both.
00:54:31
Speaker
And I think it is important to have both sides. Even though Westernization and Westernized philosophy is very harmful to Indigenous people because it's more of an emphasis of conquering nature rather than understanding we are non-different than this nature. But I think it is kind of important to understand both because then
00:54:58
Speaker
it helps give more on my end for me personally, it gives me compassion for people who think a certain way. And it's like, okay, I can kind of understand why you think this way, but realize that this is also why these people think this way. And, you know, it's your perspective. And that's why I heavily am against
00:55:24
Speaker
empiricalism because that is your perspective. This is your perspective and you're writing about it. What's empirical to you is completely different than what's empirical to me because that's where these psychedelic paintings come from because it's like, this was empirical for me because I saw this.
00:55:44
Speaker
but I can't prove it otherwise other than painting this. And that's the same thing with indigenous people. They see the spirits that govern their cultures. They see these gods and that's why they create the statues or that's why they create costumes based on them. That's why they harness this nature because they know that this is real because they have seen it. This is the same thing in
00:56:14
Speaker
you know, with in India, with Hindu deities, like there's hundreds of different deities. And so it's called Darshan when you go to see the deity. So you'll see that there's these beautiful, elaborate images of these deities. And it's, you know, from a Westernized lens, it's seen as mythology, but it's like, no, but if you
00:56:40
Speaker
worship the deity enough they present themselves to you because I have I myself have seen deities because of worship so it's like
00:56:50
Speaker
You know, Western philosophy will make spiritual people who are concerned with transcendental topics feel schizophrenic, but it's like, no, schizophrenia is a real serious disorder. Like psychosis, these are real serious disorder. This is not psychosis. This is the transcendence of this material world. And it's important to keep it as a validated topic. So it, I think it's nice that you've been able to talk with people.
00:57:20
Speaker
who are directly from these cultures because then they're able to speak about what it is that is
00:57:27
Speaker
what it is that they are representing, you know, and help them validate themselves by saying. Well, and the very, the very, very deep, diverse, I mean, part of the show in a sense is, is, is to engage in the different perspectives in the variety, but even within indigenous cultures, radical, I mean, things that American, generally Americans don't think about the radical differences in culture approach to
Exploring Reality through Art
00:57:52
Speaker
You know, a land, land stewardship and, you know, all these different, uh, all these differences, but I think in coming in contact with them and through art as a way to be like, you can, I've always, I just think that art is a way to get at these things, these complicated interactions that there's no way in hell you can get into that complicated interaction with a stranger or that there's no place to debate or discuss. So I think it's like.
00:58:19
Speaker
the exposure and the contact and just be like, what is it that we see and hear and do and what we can take in? As a philosopher, that's the piece that that's the basis. There's people, you know, this in human beings like this are philosophers. What is it that I want to believe and reinforce whether I thought about it or not or dad or mom said it and what it is? Do I want to go in to truly explore what is art or right?
00:58:50
Speaker
why we're doing anything that we're doing truly. And anyways, you're fun to play with, Rebecca. Thank you. Thank you. So, you know, we're talking about the role of art. I wanted to say it, I was joking, kind of.
00:59:10
Speaker
something rather than nothing answer. Like I said, I think we've done the show on something rather than nothing. But I don't want to, I do want to place that question out there, which is speaking of traditional Western questions. People say I ask it the wrong way. It should be how is there something rather than nothing or
00:59:32
Speaker
And from the Buddhist perspective, I know nothing to mean a particular thing that others or might mean with an Indian philosophy. But if you missed anything on why is there something rather than nothing, tell us.
00:59:45
Speaker
So there's something rather than nothing because even when this whole world is destroyed and there's nothing that can be seen, even when all the people are gone, there's always going to be something beyond this world.
01:00:04
Speaker
And it's important to think of what is beyond this world because that's where life comes from. So for me, that is what the something rather nothing is. That's what we call God. That's what we call the not just the universe because it's beyond the universe. That is transcendentalism itself. So
01:00:21
Speaker
that's something for me as Krishna but we call that Krishna so many different names so there's always something rather than nothing no matter what and if that's always emphasized to people that you know like you're here even if you're just yourself and you have
01:00:38
Speaker
Like what you think of as nothing, you know, you can be homeless on the street. You have something because you're alive and that life is something just like with the cows, you know, like the cow has their life and that is something. And the soil has life. That is something. The grass has life. That is something. The water has life. That is something. So there's always something rather than nothing.
01:01:02
Speaker
that is the best way to look at the world that's the best way to look at the universe like you know we look at you can look at
01:01:10
Speaker
images of outer space. And it's like there it feels like there's nothing out there because it's this vast, endless, infinite place where we can't find another Earth. We can't seemingly find other life forms out there. But something is out there. We just don't really know what it is. And that's what Sun Ra was saying. Like something is there. There's other planets. They exist something. So there's always something.
01:01:40
Speaker
Yeah. So tell us, uh, tell us for, for some, some, some newer folks, newer listeners on the, on the Sun Ra where they got to listen to just to, just to jump in. People like to jump in. So there's, there's, there's direction. I mean, it's an intimidating question with Sun Ra. Sun Ra is like I said, so difficult to process because his compositions, his compositions are hard. Like they're hard.
01:02:09
Speaker
But I think first people should start with watching his movie called Space is the Place.
Sun Ra's Influence and Recommendations
01:02:15
Speaker
You can find it on YouTube for free. Google Sun Ra Space is the Place. It'll be there. It'll help you understand him. And it's, it's, have you seen the movie?
01:02:27
Speaker
I haven't, but I'm Oh, you got to watch it. You got to watch that's later on. It's later on. You got to watch it. So, you know, start with the movie because then you'll understand what he's talking about in his work overall. But I think
01:02:44
Speaker
album-wise, music-wise, and I'm actually like, I'm on my phone right now trying to like figure out the best. I had a question. Maybe even more difficult. Maybe it was more difficult. Why is there something rather than nothing? How do I start with Sun Ra? How do you start with Sun Ra? That is so hard. No, I think honestly,
01:03:08
Speaker
So there is a compilation album with some of his more melodic and easy to listen to songs. So it's gonna be called, it's Sun Ra and his orchestra and it was, it's Giles Peterson presents. So it's called Giles Peterson presents Sun Ra and his orchestra and it's Giles Peterson compiled this album together. It's in two volumes and it's,
01:03:37
Speaker
It's laid out in a nice way so you can listen from start to finish and not feel so intimidated by him and help her listen to like the more easy to sit. It's useful. It's a useful entry point. But when you're ready,
01:03:56
Speaker
to get into his complex compositions. Crystal Spears is an album that I really love, but it's not for everybody. I can tell you that now. It's not for everybody, but Crystal Spears. Don't worry. The show is beloved. The podcast is loved and not for everybody. Sun Ra. Sun Ra. No, I love that and what you had to say. And I think about in terms of sound and the whole universe and Sun Ra.
01:04:24
Speaker
And it goes back to my friend, Larry, in studying philosophy. Sun Ra, Sun Ra. He got it. I thought he was my madman friend around the corner, but he was the one screaming the truth. So Rebecca, before we let you go here, I just wanted to give you the opportunity and tell folks how to, if you can tell folks how to encounter
01:04:50
Speaker
the work that you do, your paintings, whether it be physical in place, social media, website, that type of thing. So as of now, all of my artwork is currently in storage. I had to give up my studio. I was dealing with like different environmental factors because it wasn't really like
01:05:12
Speaker
a secure place like it constantly had leaks and and like mold and stuff like that. But also it it was a space where it was more of an art collective. It was an artist collective. So it was different artists in there. I was the only person I was only a black person and I was dealing with an angry white guy and his complacent wife and and then like a third person who was more like
01:05:42
Speaker
you know, she kind of was just aloof about reality. So it just wasn't a healthy environment for me where, cause it's like, like they didn't realize how much they were differentiating me. And it's like, they could not see that this is racism. It's like, I would tell, I was very patient and kind about it, but it got to the point where I'm like, you don't know that you're racist. I'ma just go. Sorry to hear about that.
01:06:11
Speaker
I know, but now my art itself is in storage, but I have my Instagram, which has some images on there. So my Instagram is honeydew underscore milkshake. I have my website, which needs to be updated. There's some older works on there, but it's still a nice way to kind of see some of the work. There's the mermaids on there.
01:06:38
Speaker
There are some images of deep space on there. There's not many images of water on there, but these are different ways to do it. I'm not currently exhibiting right now, so I can't tell you about seeing an exhibit, but those are some ways too. Yeah. Well, I just encounter, like I said,
01:07:04
Speaker
visually drawn into the universes there. And I get quickly pulled in, I think, you know, honestly, too, is from, like, I grew up in still an obsessive around like, comic books and sci fi novel. So for me, I always like to go somewhere else, like, and I see a painting, I'm like, I want to be
01:07:21
Speaker
there because that's I know it's somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that. I like hearing that. I used to read comic books, not like superhero comic books, more like like Sandman and like those types, you know. Oh, you're you're you're in fine territory. I read those. But the problem is with me is that there is the literary types, too. And Neil Gaiman and Sandman, which I
01:07:49
Speaker
I do adore. I also read trashy comic books. Okay. I also read Archie. I also read. I love the Archie. The bazooka laden action ones. So I get into them all. But no, yeah. You said see, I mean, now I'm seeing some of the celestials in your paintings.
01:08:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful universe. And of course, have you seen the show, Sandman? Oh, I didn't know there was a show. OK, so you read it. OK, so let me let me tell you. So you've read it. But the adaptation came out on Netflix and there were 11 or 12 episodes. And I thought they were phenomenal and beautiful. But what is super cool is the death character in the comics
01:08:39
Speaker
is a Black woman. Oh, interesting. In Gothgarb. And she's a British actress. And anyways, seeing me on the show. Gotta check it out. Check it out. It was a beautiful rendition. But Rebecca Mills, your art making us think about all these different things. That's what I like. Yeah, I got the teacher in you.
01:09:09
Speaker
I wanted to thank you so much for coming out to the show and really like kind of like great chat and learning a lot and I got to go do the Sun Ra movie you refer to and some of the other listeners are going to but I'm
01:09:22
Speaker
Again, just wanted to thank you for coming on the show and really just letting us know what you're up to, what you're thinking about, some of those profound thoughts, yeah. Yeah, this was great. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for reaching out. And I love the email that you sent, whereas I'm obsessed with your art. I'm like, of course I want to be on your show. What? As I am enthusiastic, one of the things about getting folks on, I think a lot of times maybe we think
01:09:51
Speaker
that we're supposed to do it a different way. And because you can do things however you want to do things, it'd be like, that is awesome what I saw of you. Like, I can't figure it out or I understand it completely. I want to talk to you about it. So it's great that you've done that. And we're able to connect with you from New York over here to the woods here in Oregon.
01:10:16
Speaker
Thank you so much, Rebecca. And I'll totally be checking out a bunch more of your art and big 2023 to you as well. Thank you so much. You too. Absolutely. Take care now. You too. Bye. This is something rather than nothing.