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85. Warfighter Down with Former Delta Force Operator Tom Satterly and Jen Satterly
411 Plays8 months ago
We are joined by Tom Slattery, a former site member of the US Army's Delta Force, and his wife, Jen, where we discuss the bloodshed, the wounds, the moments of guilt, depression and trauma that they have dedicated their lives to help other members of the Special Forces and their loved ones heal from, and how they think this approach would help anyone.
Tom is one of the Delta Force commandos who participated in the 1993 Battle of Mogadishu where 18 Americans, one Malaysian and two Turkish service members were killed. The battle become the inspiration for Mark Bowden's book, Black Hawk Down.
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Transcript
Human Issues in Military Jobs
00:00:01
Speaker
These are human issues that we're talking about. The military is a different job. Everyone associates it with, oh, the killing and the death. Most people don't kill. Most people don't see people die. um They still have issues.
Trauma in Law Enforcement and First Responders
00:00:14
Speaker
We worked with law enforcement. We worked with other first responders during COVID, hospital workers, just seeing other people's trauma.
Tools for Mental Health Management
00:00:22
Speaker
You're not a warrior. You're not a commando. You you can't commando your way out. You need the tools. The top tier one special operations folks in the world can't manage it. They've been trained and trained and trained. You have mental health educators and and and personnel that have mental health issues. No one no one gets away from it, right? You have to deal
Normalizing Mental Health Struggles
00:00:42
Speaker
with it and log you away. The worse it gets.
00:00:44
Speaker
And then it's it's harder to deal with. And the older you get, the less you want to do it, the less you want to admit it. So you just tackle it right away. It's okay.
Feelings of Isolation in the Military
00:00:50
Speaker
It's okay to not be okay. It's okay to talk about it. That's retired Command Sergeant Tom Slattery, a former Tier 1 Special Operator in the Army's Delta Force. I think for me, it's to know that you're not alone. So many people feel completely isolated. They feel alone. They feel crazy. They feel different. They feel unheard, unseen. And just to that person, you are seen, you are heard, you are valuable, and you matter.
Introduction to Guests: Tom and Gin Slattery
00:01:21
Speaker
And you're never alone. There's always somebody that cares about you, that loves you, that wants you here. That's Gin Slattery, an advocate for servicemen and servicewomen and their families and Tom's wife.
00:01:36
Speaker
This is the Silver Linings Handbook Podcast. I'm Jason Blair.
00:01:55
Speaker
Many of both in the military and civilians, have presumptions and preconceived notions of special operators. A fantasy world where they're always fearless, hard-charging, and virtually invincible. In this world, they're immune to the emotional and physical issues that others deal with. And we imagine that after their careers, knocking heads, kicking down doors, stealing secrets, following the kill chain and tightening the kill zone, special operators ride off into the sunset.
00:02:26
Speaker
Retired Command Sergeant Major Tom Slattery, a legend among Special Operators, would disagree. Delta Force is officially known as the first Special Operational Detachment Delta of the United States Army, and it's referred to at times as the Combat Applications Group, Task Force Green, or simply the Unit. Delta Force, along with SEAL Team 6 in the Navy, the 24th Special Tactics Squadron in the Air Force, and the Intelligence Support Activity in the Army, are what is known as Tier 1 Special Operators. They take on the most complex, covert, and dangerous missions, and are directed by the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense.
History of Delta Force
00:03:12
Speaker
Delta Force was created in November 1977 after well-publicized terrorist attacks led to the United States government developing a full-time counter-terrorism unit. Their first well-known operation was Operation Eagle Claw, the failed attempt to rescue hostages in the U.S. Embassy in Tehran. That mission failed after anomalous weather led to the collision and fire, killing eight servicemen and a civilian in an attack that had to be aborted.
00:03:43
Speaker
In the aftermath, the US created the Special Operations Command to coordinate among the services. Since then, Delta Force operators have conducted operations on at least six of the seven continents, taking on tasks as disparate as battling in the Al Ambar region of Iraq during the Iraq War and the Battle of Mogadishu to the invasion of Panama and the NATO intervention in Bosnia. Delta Force played a role in Colombian and Mexican drug wars and Cold War operations, but the tempo and the nature of its work intensified during the global war on terrorism. Tom was a senior non-commissioned officer in Delta Force, one of the most secretive and elite special operations units in the United States military.
All Secure Foundation Nonprofit
00:04:32
Speaker
In a long career that involved thousands of missions over the course of 20 years, Tom participated in hostage rescue and capturing and killing high value terrorist targets. And he also fought for his life and saw his friends killed in Maine. Tom and his wife, Jen, are now focused on healing wounds, battling complex post-traumatic stress, and providing others hope and resources for healing through their nonprofit, the All Secure Foundation.
00:05:05
Speaker
At a time when the divorce rate is soaring in special operations communities and suicide is a grave concern. The foundation provides retreats and workshops for special operators and their spouses that focus on healing wounds and breaking the generational cycle of trauma that can begin from many former special operators and their loved ones. The Foundation also provides an online platform for spouses and families, individual and couple coaching, community resources, and a library of books and other materials focused on healing and finding peace. In its 2019 book, also named All Secure,
00:05:45
Speaker
Tom talks about how the enemy cost him three marriages, destroyed his physical health, and psychologically crushed him.
Tom's Personal Battles with Trauma
00:05:53
Speaker
He discussed how the toll almost led to him killing himself in 2014 until a lifeline was thrown to him by who he describes as an extraordinary woman, his current wife, Jen. It wasn't until then, Tom writes, that his most important and most difficult mission began, healing.
Jen Slattery's Filmmaking and Special Ops Work
00:06:17
Speaker
Jen is an award-winning filmmaker and photographer. She spent three years as the director of film and photography for an elite special operations training company embedded with the Navy SEALs, the Green Berets, and the Army Rangers in large-scale training missions.
00:06:33
Speaker
During her time embedded with special operators, Jen says she began to see a pattern with soldiers, sailors, airmen that she worked alongside and began to work to find answers for how to help them with their post-traumatic stress and how to help their family members who also faced what we call secondary post-traumatic stress. innocent casualties of America's longest war. Jen is the founder of a platform that empowers women facing the challenges of post-traumatic stress, and she's also the co-author of Arsenal of Hope, Tactics for Taking on PTSD Together. Tom says he learned from Jen that humility, the ability to admit his weaknesses and faults, and the power of being of service to others who are suffering can be an important part of his healing.
00:07:23
Speaker
Today, Tom and Jen are going to discuss the bloodshed, wounds, moments of guilt, depression, terror, substance abuse, and the aftermath. The toll on families, the gift of vulnerability and humility, lessons about mental health that can benefit both members of the military, their families, and anyone.
Introduction and Guest Backgrounds
00:07:46
Speaker
I want to thank Jason Ercey, the host of the podcast Missing in a Moment and Santa May Be a Criminal, for both the inspiration for this episode and connecting Jen, Tom, and I.
00:08:10
Speaker
So Jen and Tom just wanted to thank you for joining. um we were talking about We were talking about this a little bit before, but um you know my friend and fellow podcaster Jason Urcy and my former guest Kevin Grogan had a suggested you guys, as um you had gone on Kevin's show, End of Watch, ah to talk about mental health in the military. And, you know, I had, you know, on my end, I hadn't realized it, but I had read a book about a man named Eric Blamm, who is a Navy SEAL who had been blinded during his training.
00:08:52
Speaker
um But was still able to, you know, stay qualified and get deployed. And unfortunately, tragically, he died. um after his deployment, his last deployment. And I'm just a naturally curious person. And that book explored also the impact, not just of his death, but of his deployments on him and this his mental health, and then also on his family. And I had come across um some of the early work you were doing. So when I was researching this and thinking about asking you guys to come on, I was really thrilled to see um how much progress you guys had made. So I just wanted to thank you. um
00:09:33
Speaker
I mean, both for the service and for coming on.
Tom's Military Aspirations
00:09:36
Speaker
Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Yeah. the Right. right ah Right. It's a good way to go. Right. So I was going to you know, Tom, I've read your book All Secure and i oh I wanted to just ask you a little bit about what caused you to gravitate toward the military and then eventually special operations. And I'm just wondering, like, when you were a little kid growing up, did you ever think about the military or some other profession? I know for me, I thought about Dr. Firefighter and then, you know, all those things. You know, when you were young, what did you what did you think your future would look like? Yeah, that was it. Dr. Firefighter, a you know, cop, I'll be a cop. I tell people what to do. You know, it's one of the same. All kids want to do that then.
00:10:23
Speaker
I mean, military, ah John Wayne and the Green Bres, I love that movie. um And then I would play with a little Green Army man with my brother, you know, set him up, a little sniper positions, little minesweepers going through and then would use bottle rockets and firecrackers to kind of go to war with each other and blow each other up and then that kind of grew. but Who would win? and Yeah, who would, who'd, who'd? I'd like to have a mote of fire and letting get across that, you know, but it's one of those The real question was, who was the green ones, and who were the blue ones? You were your brother. Who got which ones? So green on green. not Not good anymore, man. Not green back there. So it was less war and more just fragging the same size. One organization went to war, that's what happened. It's a simple war, I guess. right But yeah, I ain't had no plans to join the military. And a friend of mine did after graduation in 85. And I was swinging a hammer, you know, working.
00:11:19
Speaker
I already blown college college money so i wouldn't get an opportunity myself so. My friend came back that late summer of eighty five and from basic training and he was tell me it was great my hair cuss been bother me i'm going to germany for two years and what. And so we were driving up to a John Cougar concert in Indianapolis that night, and I stopped by the VEP station and signed up that night. And then ended up finally going in under the delayed entry program in February 86. And it's like four years in and out, right? Get some college money, I'm done.
00:11:52
Speaker
how Had you before you um you know ah went into the recruiter station and and eventually joined, had you been exposed earlier in your life to people who were working in the military? Because I'm thinking around that time. you know It's not a time that we're in war. A lot of people go off to the military to get their college degrees.
Joining the Military: Expectations vs. Reality
00:12:15
Speaker
They do maybe two tours. it's you know There's a lot of peace. And I was just wondering, were you exposed to it at all before you made the decision? Not really, other than my brother who, and I couldn't tell you why I joined the military and went to basic training between his junior and senior year. I think he was going to teach at West Point. It was one of his things. It was pretty intelligent, but I made fun of it. I laughed at his hair, the senior. Oh, you idiot. You know, you joined the army. What a fool. Yeah, and there I was, terrible. And I did nothing to do with it. I thought my grandfather had
00:12:50
Speaker
He was always in bed on auction. I thought that was mustard gas. My other grandpa had no legs. and i thought he so I don't know why I thought these things I found out as an adult. ah That was true. Both his legs blown off in the war, in a what war? I don't know. umt me just I don't know. And then I found out as an adult, none of that happened. They were just sick. I'm like, oh, so I had zero experience with the military for what would ever happen. Did you grow up in a small town, big city? Tiny town, Columbus, Indiana. was just I was born in a smaller town, Seymour, Indiana, but I mean, we moved to Columbus. Yeah. And that's where I met Janet.
00:13:26
Speaker
you know what I was talking to someone recently and they brought up this idea. I was asking how she became an attorney because she was never exposed to it. But you know we were talking about how all the research shows the more you're exposed to a certain profession, like if you're for exposed to engineers or doctors or or lawyers, um the more likely you are to try and pursue one of those one of those careers. and You know yeah our our conversation kind of jumped over to the to the military and the point that she was making was well when you grow up in this small town like the options might be go work at the factory.
00:14:05
Speaker
go work in a coal mine or join the military. And that's all that's sort of there because people aren't thinking options. Literally. You just described my dad, you his father was a coal miner and he, I said, why did you join the air force? He said, I could have been a factory worker, a coal miner, or, you know, find odd jobs in my small town. So I, Oh wow. Where did you grow up Jen? I grew up in St. Louis. Okay. Okay. yeah okay so So there you are. ah you So as soon as you hear this story, Tom, you you end up, I guess, going to a recruiter and enlisting. What was it like when you first went off to boot camp?
Boot Camp Transformation
00:14:51
Speaker
Horrible. but Horrible. you know I flew from Indiana to St. Louis and I got on a bus and it was kind of gentle. yeah Everybody line up, get on the bus, civilians. you know
00:15:01
Speaker
at that No drill sergeants inside, just that little handler. And I fell asleep. I think it's about an hour and a half, two hour bus ride to ah Fort Leonard Wood. And I woke up to six or more drill sergeants in the aisle of our bus screaming. just I think they snuck on and start screaming and everybody awake, throwing luggage out the windows, opening the back door of this bus, going, that back door works, the windows work, get off my bus. I'm like, oh shit. screaming and chasing people and pushing them down and lining us all up on this concrete sidewalk with little squares, just dropping people, making people cry. I'm your mommy now, your mommy's gone. She doesn't love you. And then, you know, drove soap on the ground dish soap or, you know, laundry soap on the ground that mommy sent you. You know, it's funny. And then drill starts making them look it up. I'm like, this is different.
00:15:49
Speaker
ah Not what you're expecting you told to do something and not doing it now. I mean it next time. Okay. And and now I mean it. Yeah. This guy minted right away. He meant it right away. the um So what was the experience like in and you know i I had told you guys earlier that I had this friend who um you know she grew up with me she went to high school with me she was somewhat insecure really sweet person she went off to college for a year and then decided to join the Marine Corps and I remember going out to lunch Chinese food I will never forget this lunch
00:16:24
Speaker
um And her just standing up from the table as I came in and me being like, you are not that girl anymore that anybody's going to push over. And it wasn't her physical size or anything like that. There was just this presence. It was like she was a new it's like they had made a new human being who had the brain of some elements of the brain of the girl I knew left on it. Confidence. And on top of that was confidence. They can change who you are, but then give you a skill and give you confidence that you believe that probably never believed growing up. It's, they used to call it an obstacle course that you go through and they finally changed it. You know, mentally the words matter. like It's a, it's a confidence course who through 30 tackle those obstacles and you gain confidence. And so the Marines take everything away like everybody else. And then they give it back to you and what they give you back is confidence and and discipline. And you're sure of yourself, you know, and you're just waiting on orders to go do that thing, whatever that thing might be.
Motivations for Military Service
00:17:22
Speaker
yeah So for you, ultimately getting out of ah boot camp, what ah what did your military occupational specialty end up being? what What were you going to be focused on? I was looking to be like a medic or something in the military because I had no idea. And my recruiter obviously had a different idea for me. It was going to be a 12 Bravo combat engineer. He's like, you know, you blow stuff up. I love, love to, you know, that's what I do now. I build things. He goes, man, you're going to, that's what you want as a combat engineer. I go, yeah, okay. I'll do that. You know, I'm like, okay, quota check field.
00:17:56
Speaker
And, uh, you know, it was okay. It was like, you think that was more in his interest than yours? yeah
00:18:05
Speaker
He only wanted me to pass, a you know, the hell or whether it were basic training. He wanted me to pass basic training. So he got credit for it's all he cared. And then so, so what does a ah combat engineer do? Engineer is such a fancy word. and but we're our big core of engineers now it's one of those ah you're an infantry guy and you shovel also
00:18:30
Speaker
Here's the tanks want to go through here. Take out those landmines. Oh, the infantry needs to get through that concertina wire. Use your Bangalore torpedoes. of Okay, so we're first. We got to go through the mines and blow the fences so you guys can come on through after we're already there. I got you. So that was one of those. And I went mechanized combat engineer in Germany. So I'm driving an armored track, and armored personnel carrier. I'm driving this thing. So it's nothing like an engineer. I'm a driver now. I'm driving other engineers. you know, dropped him off and had them dig holes. So it was just, it sounded sexy. It didn't turn out sexy. I still hear about these driving courses, by the way.
00:19:08
Speaker
ah you questions right
00:19:12
Speaker
I'm sorry, Jen. Highly trained. okay Well, you know, in just thinking about sort of like, you know, the experience of being in the military and, you know, when I when i was growing up, I am thinking like Clinton administration, Reagan administration. there were you know The military was seen as a place you'd go off for a couple years, whatever your tour was. Maybe you do a second tour, um but it wasn't going to be a career. It was going to be a stepping stone to something. what What were you thinking when you were when you were going into the military's home?
00:19:51
Speaker
college in and out. I had no clue that it was an entire ecosystem of the planet. There's every job in the military. I didn't know back then. I just, you know, I did it for college money. I didn't. but We weren't at war, so I was really impressed with people who signed up in the last 20 some years so while we were at war. Like you talked about peace. Vietnam was the last thing we did. I think while I was in, we had Panama and Grenada while I was trying to get in. And it was in and out, nothing. yeah I'm like, oh, those aren't even wars, right? Those are too quick to be called a war. So we weren't at war anywhere. So for me, it was easy. College of money, in
Challenges for Military Families
00:20:27
Speaker
and out. I'll go to Germany. That was my thought process, what I could get from me, right?
00:20:32
Speaker
People sign up in the last 20 years knowing we're at war. Sure, there's something about them as well, but I think that's more of a patriotic, I'm going to help my country and I'm going to help our armed forces. And they sign up for that stuff. it's I've heard a lot of patriotic stories of people signing up while we're at war, and that's impressive to me. So this is actually a decent segue. Chen, I know you've worked with a lot of special operators. Do you share similar experiences to Toms in terms of what attracted them to the military? Yeah.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think um I worked alongside special operations for about three and a half, four years. so And I was always very, very curious, like, why did you sign up? What was the attraction? And I think I was looking for what Tom just said, like this big patriotic story. And and on occasion, I would hear it like, hey, I was in high school when 9-11 happened. And in that moment, I knew as soon as I could, I was out, I was going to serve. On occasion, I would hear that, but most of what I heard was like Tom's. I was directionless. I lived in a small town. I didn't know what my options or opportunities were. I thought I could see the world. I thought I could make difference. And so I signed up. That's probably the most common story.
00:21:47
Speaker
are Are there, what are the other stories you hear? I always hear the judge gave me the option. It's not an option. Marta's guide, special operations, truly we would go on these missions and and he and I would sit and wait. He was the pyrotech guy, so he'd make all the bombs. And he would sit and talk quantum physics. like I would always have to be like, Rob, slow down. Or like, I don't know where you're going here. He told me his story of 17. I stabbed a guy. So the judge said, jail. And he's like, I know you're not jail quality. I know you're a good man. So I think you should go to the army. And it's because his mom was a meth head. His dad was in and out of prison for murder. His grandma was a meth head.
00:22:32
Speaker
He told me about how his brother and him ate out of trash cans most nights, so he was attacked and defended himself. But again, like had he been in a really good home, this guy would have like won the Nobel Prize. Genius, genius, man. so So many people who don't have opportunity that were given that choice, the military actually is a really wonderful place for a lot of people to end up. It's the only family some of these guys and gals will have ever had. That's for a later topic too. of Everything we talk about, oh, war screwed me up. It's like now childhood trauma is most of what we see.
00:23:05
Speaker
We meet a lot of West Pointers too. i mean I did meet people who want the academic route. um They wanted it to be an officer, they wanted to come in, you know they wanted to make a difference, but I would say Moost or like Tom or my dad or Rob. One of the things that I often think about is
00:23:26
Speaker
you know over the years and different elements of work I've done, I've been exposed to military families. and you know My gut or my initial reaction is to say that there are a lot of misconceptions about them, but I think the reality is like we have very little idea unless you're close to it or exposed to it, what it's like to be in a military family. And I'm thinking about things like the constant moving and having to change schools, the worry about your mom or your dad or your spouse who's being deployed, the you know anxiety related to that or constantly having to meet um new people. And I was just wondering from from your perspective, like
00:24:14
Speaker
you know what is the do you Do you two think that the military is doing enough for anything? Are they doing anything before um you know people enter or as people are entering to help prepare the servicemen and women and their families for what's ahead of them? They didn't. And I would say they probably still do not. It costs money. It's not their mission. Like the Department of Defense's mission is to train you up and send you off to war. It's the defense of the nation. Um, do they care about your mental wellbeing at the time? No. They'll lie to you and tell you they do. Humans before hardware, but ask them where their money goes. They can't prove that they're doing what they say. Yeah. You know, I think.
00:25:02
Speaker
We, it's it's already different than what I've seen. I started working with Tom in 2013, so where I've seen it to now, there has been um more programs introduced. There has been um people that, you know, leaders who have come out and they've become very vocal about mental health. um So it is different already in the last 10 years. True individual leaders though, not overall the arch of the government is not right putting in, but only the individual leaders who care enough and have seen enough and know what can
Military's Approach to Mental Health
00:25:31
Speaker
happen. I'll bring nonprofits like RSAN and other people to talk. But they have to be creative about how to find that money. And they're running out of that money and it's very difficult. Tell them to trade in a jet.
00:25:42
Speaker
I'm right. jack right and now I was in Vermont this weekend in Burlington. I was watching the F-35s take off. Just one of those. Yeah, none of them, like half. That would help the aircraft. Yeah, we still don't lose the war. Just look at the combat-related deaths versus suicides over the times of the wars we've had. And even they were like, the greatest generation didn't have this problem. yeah ah Oh, boy. They just didn't talk. They didn't talk about it. High suicide rates and one of the highest in domestic violence. Remember Rambo? Did you see Rambo the movie? the first I did. Oh, yeah. Post-traumatic stress breakdown. yeah And the reason the sheriff was so hard on him was he fought in the Korean. He didn't like the Special Ops guy, so conventional soldiers taking out Special Ops guy. I think I was the only person who cried through Rambo, but I quite honestly was like, was somebody leave him alone?
00:26:33
Speaker
so It was so sad. It was sad. No. Well, one of the things that, um you know, hey I, in my career, I've obviously worked in mental health. I also did some work with the military health system. And i I remember being struck by the army medicines motto. And it was, It was something on long lines, I may butcher it, but it was like to conserve the fighting strength. And that was really striking to me for like a and medical outfit, because I think embedded in that notion is that army medicine's role isn't necessarily to heal.
00:27:14
Speaker
but to heal in so much as it can get that soldier back onto the field. and and Beyond that, goodbye. um and you know Also, that notion that that that for the families, you know Army medicine, Navy medicine, they They exist so the warriors don't have to worry about their families at home. and I was telling you guys a story off mic a about going down to Kiesler Air Base and in Gulfport. They had, ah in my mind, a really enlightened wing commander, which is like the base commander in the Air Force.
00:27:54
Speaker
And I was talking to her and the woman who is in charge, the doctor is in charge of the military treatment facility there. And one of the points they were making to me is that the military does operate like this. I was talking to the head of the military treatment facility, and she was talking about this idea that, yes, you know we exist to preserve the fighting force. so um And when we deal with post-traumatic symptoms, it's often with the servicemen, not with their family members and that secondary post-traumatic stuff. But it's really just to get that pilot that we've invested millions of dollars in back up in the sky in a plane. But her thought was that actually it doesn't just happen this post-traumatic stress because of one event.
00:28:45
Speaker
It happens because of a series of events, some to your point, that may start in childhood, but certainly a series of events in the military and that if they address those earlier on, they would decrease the long-term pressure you know that the nation has in terms of taking care of these folks. um over the long run, but they would also have a stronger military and she was she was making the point that we take a very short term approach to taking care of the health of our servicemen and women and their families and that a longer term approach would really pay off.
Long-term Health Strategies
00:29:24
Speaker
Yeah, they work in the physics.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah. Rook your leg, compound fracture. You could have light duty, sit behind a desk, do a different job until you heal for four, six months. Now, if you say I'm an alcoholic and I need to go deal with this because all the stress and pressure, they're like, you're out of here. It's like, really, it would take a lot less time for me to kick the booze and be back healthier than that broken compound fractured leg guy. Yet, I don't matter. Well, you just need to stop drinking. Oh, I got you. For better yet, just stay in, keep drinking, but shut up. em Yeah, just shut up about it. cause Stop telling people. Because what we do is we drink. What are you, a week? Go drink more. You'll get better at it. But yeah, they don't. Number one, know how to deal with the mental aspect. Two, the Marmee Medics really trying to give you a band-aid and splinter your leg and get you off to someone who can take care of you.
00:30:09
Speaker
And then three, everyone's afraid to talk to the shrinks, the docs and their organizations because they might be deemed crazy, if you will, or incompetent or incapable of doing a job and they'll get removed or they lose their security clearance. So there's all these obstacles against asking and getting help. Yeah, i've and I've noticed that the the people who really do get desperate for help will quietly get help outside of the military health system. That's why we this yeah yeah we have licensed social workers that only coach. So when we've been ahead of organizations like, I need to know what's going on my soldier, like kind of we don't tell you. That's why they come to us.
00:30:48
Speaker
who And so they come to us to, to, to just unload their, their dirty laundry and their trauma. And we kind of, we help give them the tools to our coaches. We give them all the tools they need to practice, develop muscle memory and get over the other bad habits they have of anger and aggression. what do we um What do we do for the families? How do we prepare or support the families? Does the Department of Defense have... I know they have a part of of the Department of Defense that focuses on military families, but... I'll tell you, there's a vision of the Forsen family, which is broke. It's been broke since COVID when all the money went to vaccinations.
00:31:29
Speaker
So they used to be able to bring people in and now they can have a pizza party. Maybe all the chaplains were given money as well. That money is dry. So they can't bring anybody in. So literally humans before hardware, all the money's gone to the hardware or other humans in another country for hardware. Right. Yeah, and and quite honestly, Tom and I won. We spoke in Congress back in 2017. We went and met with a bunch of senators, I think 12 over the course of two days, senators, congressmen, reps, and not one, but three separate people
Psychological Effects on Military Families
00:32:00
Speaker
told me, oh, it's so great to have a veteran spouse up here. I've never sat down and actually spoken to a spouse before. yeah
00:32:06
Speaker
Oh, wow. Yes, three different, not just one. I had condescended you know kind totally um condescending like, i let me hold your hand and you just tell me how hard this is. Poor girl. And and it's you know it's so disgusting on so many levels that you represent the people and you don't know who the people are. You don't know what their issues are. You don't know how to help them or you don't even care to help them. Five seconds after they walk out the door, you've forgotten you're on to the next one. Yeah. Nothing. Well, that's so striking because it makes me think about the fact that such a, at least in the United States, such a small percentage of the population ever does
00:32:49
Speaker
military service. If I go back to my dad's generation, which was Vietnam and the draft, you get a lot larger percentage of people who are exposed. But I never really thought about what impact that has on politics or community that so many of us don't get exposure to people who either grew up as a part of a military family or or who served and how that creates even a greater disconnect. You know, I just heard a story someone shared with us. um I think he was 10 years old. This boy was drawing pictures of like cemeteries and stuff at school. And so the teacher alerts the principal, um mom and dad get called in, you know, we're concerned about mental health issues. This kid keeps drawing pictures of of cemeteries, like we're scared he's going to hurt himself or someone else. It took um
00:33:45
Speaker
a good therapist about five minutes in talking to this boy who said, why are you drawing pictures of cemeteries all the time? He said, well, my dad's a green beret. Oh, that's amazing. you Yeah. But that means he's going to die any day now. And so, oh wow because my dad's overseas now, I'm just waiting for his funeral. So everybody wants to draw pictures of his funeral. That's so sad. It's so sad. And you know, we have people come into our organization, generals, you know, Lieutenant Colonels who are medics, people who you would feel like these guys know, right? um We help their kids who they're like, gosh, my, you know, my, my teenage or my 14 year old's really acting out and sure, teenagers do, but
00:34:27
Speaker
the way they describe the symptoms it's like have you had them look at for secondary pts sure enough they get an evaluation bam it's not ocd it's not adhd it's not he's a troubled or bad kid it's this kid has secondary trauma from war and nobody's addressing it and they're reaching out and screaming for help but mom and dad don't even know how to help. And secondary PTS is that idea of post-traumatic stress that sort of like happens when people either witness or exposed to the trauma of others. You know, it can lead to anxiety, avoidance, you know, a lot of the emotional distress and even sort of like passion fatigue is out of fair definition of it.
00:35:15
Speaker
essentially walking on landmines or trying to avoid them or eggshell syndrome, we call it. So as a spouse, say for instance, um I have someone in the home with complex PTS. My husband has served a bunch, um but every time he comes back, he's different. And I don't know when he walks in the room if he's going to be angry, if he's going to be aggressive, if he's going to ignore me. if he's gonna take off for a couple days cuz i did or said the wrong thing so i'm constantly evaluate what am i saying what am i doing what is you know how's the house is it clean enough is are the kids quiet enough for the getting done with so i'm completely rewriting who i am i'm developing a lot of nervous tendencies anxiety.
00:35:51
Speaker
depression, probably also losing sleep. We don't talk about the military spouses that also become dependent on alcohol and drugs as a coping mechanism because as much as we are helping our veterans and starting to understand that nobody's helping the spouses, nobody's helping the kids.
Suicide Rates Among Military Families
00:36:06
Speaker
And the words don't know that they've become that as well. The second thing to ask for the spouses is because they're becoming someone different than who they were. And the word has already become someone different because he's doing things he doesn't want to do. He's self-medicating. He's hiding. He feels you know, like he's worthless. He's not doing his job and that disconnect between civilians and military does both ways.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah. In the recruitment posters, they show them lots of cool things. It's a fun time. It's a party and nobody shoots back at you. And then if you're in the military for a long time, you don't know what the civilian world is. And if you're in the civilian world, you don't know what the military is. And we fear what we don't understand. So that does mean versus we're both civilians. I do a different job than you basically. And tell military people no one cares what you did, man. Come on, brother. No one knows when you're in line. I hope, people, you are a four-star general. So quit acting like it. Quit acting like you matter to these people. They don't care. Just contribute now how you can.
00:37:01
Speaker
You know, Jen, the description that you gave of like, you know, not knowing what your spouse is like and kind of the image I get in my head is like walking softly on the carpet because they're to your point about eggshells, their eggs under it. And I don't know what I'm going to do that's going to cause one of those to crack. Like I imagine being in that environment, it's hard, you know, your spouse has changed, but it's also hard to be you. For like the kid to you know kids naturally wanna go share their stories with their parents they went to xyz but it sounds like everyone. Sit some weights to see who they really have what's the what's the toll on families.
00:37:48
Speaker
You know, it's it's terrible. The Pentagon said in 2018, I believe, that there were 200 suicides attributed to spouses living in this type of situation. Oh, wow. So people aren't talking about the wives, um primarily wives, my wives and, you know, husbands and wives, but I'm talking statistically with special operations that's where my world is and that's where my research numbers come from. um But you know we we lose at least 200 spouses to secondary PTS. ah Children, it's anywhere between 10% to 17% higher suicide rate if they're in the house with someone with complex PTS.
Factors in Military Suicides
00:38:24
Speaker
um So spouses are taking their lives, children are taking their lives, why? Because
00:38:29
Speaker
It feels like a trap. It feels like there's no way out. A sport behavior. Well, and we also like the stats tell us that let's say you have a parent who commits suicide. You are seven times more likely to commit suicide later in life as a child. And we're, um you know, we're constantly talking about, I was telling you guys about a New York Times article that I had read about suicide being a, huge problem in the military among people who aren't even deployed, which and it was a great the New York Times, a great story on it. But I would feel better about it if I hadn't been reading that story since, you know, 2007. And, you know, i if I were to drive the 19 miles over to the Pentagon, I'm sure everyone in the building would tell me that this is a huge issue. But I feel like
00:39:24
Speaker
It's a perennial issue that that that that while it makes the newspapers or makes TV, we're not really doing anything about it. And then secondarily, it's got this echo effect on the families. Even if it doesn't lead to suicide, we know that when someone commits suicide, all sorts of terrible things happen happen in the family. what are your What are your thoughts on the suicide problem? Oh, gosh, you know it's so difficult. It's a really dark space, obviously. I think I simplified it before we we were in a Senate hearing for the VA as well. And the v a the head of the VA asked me, why do you think veterans are taking their lives? At this time, I was on the phone with 11 soldiers or sailors a day almost. um Early part of our foundation, I was doing a lot of that triage work.
00:40:17
Speaker
And so they were saying, like, what are the commonalities? What are you finding? you know And how do we reduce it? For one, you're not going to stop soldier suicide. You won't. Humans will take their lives no matter what occupation they have. um But what you can do is create a life they don't need to escape from. And that's going to happen in a multitude of ways. For one, it's understanding that traumatic brain injury, right? So these guys get blown up constantly. like Not only are they blown up, but when you shoot your weapon constantly, you get these tiny, like, tiny concussions. When you have traumatic brain injury like these guys do, your chance of having suicidal ideation goes through the roof. So what we have to understand is part of this is biology. Ninety percent of the people who take their life in this community are heavily intoxicated or on pills.
Breaking Aggression Habits
00:41:01
Speaker
So it doesn't sound like they really want to do it. It sounds like they have to get to the point where they're almost unconscious to do it.
00:41:07
Speaker
8% or after a family incident so not what's happening you know i lost bob overseas you hear a little bit of that but really what we're discovering it's issues in the home so i'm getting another divorce my kids are afraid of me i don't have purpose anymore i was just a warfighter and others nothing left for me and they tear the heart that the the home apart in this process which tears them apart because these men will say the same thing I love being a protector. I was born for the service. Now I've become the monster that I was trying to protect my family from in the first place. And oh right you have bad parents everywhere, you know, and then the kids grow up not being a such a well-rounded, balanced person. A lot of it in the military ends up being bad or non-parenting, right, or or single parent raised. Children who Mr. mr
00:41:58
Speaker
you know mother and father who are always gone plus the stress at that and then and then of course you come home and you act poorly you know we behave poorly as humans because we're given awards to be violent and aggressive right where where where we're promoted for it. e Different human being, and you don't know it, it's normal to you. Your spouse picks up on it, but she slowly changed, right? Like somebody, you watch somebody kind of caning weed over your, you don't really notice it, but if you haven't seen them in three years, like, whoa, you know, man, that was an instant change. It's a slow boil. And then that rolls into guilt. I was a bad father. I'm a bad husband. I'm a horrible individual. And then that turns to shame, you know, it goes from I did bad to I am bad. Once you sit there and think you're bad all the time, you start to believe it.
00:42:39
Speaker
And then this suicide just weighs on you. And I'll tell you, it's, you spend a career fixing problems or removing them. And if you can't fix the problem, which is you, you'd think, then you think about removing yourself. and um Part of like truly guns become like part of their hands. It's like part of their. who they are. so it It's like their toolkit. right and it hass tool but Think about the NFL. right so We do a lot of studies and I've talked to NFL players and they say the exact same thing. I was rewarded by millions of dollars and millions of people to be aggressive, to hit into hurt, and I don't have any way to turn that off when I go home. NFL players say this. It's muscle memory. yeah yeah You got to break that. like If you shoot a pistol growing up and you shot it wrong,
00:43:25
Speaker
You're really good at shooting at Rome. And then you come to me and you're like, teach me how to shoot. And I observe you for a bit. I'm like, okay, I know what's wrong. I can fix this, break it, but it takes me a bit to get rid of the old habit. And then it takes me a bit to get the new habit in and then you'll screw it up down the road and you go back to the new habit and back and forth until the new habit is the dominant thing. It's exactly here with muscle memory, progression and violence and anger. and Oh, that snipey little remark. I can, I can come back to my wife pretty fast. She says something snippy. I can destroy her in a second. I can risely verbally destroy her in a second. Then in the past year, I go physical. If I'm going to lose, I'll go physical.
00:43:56
Speaker
yeah And that's just who you are. And you have to break that habit. You have to get out of it. And that takes time. And a lot of guys give up. A lot of guys in the middle of it. I just, I'm not going to get there. It's taken me. I'm still working on it. I'm still trying to be a better person. And then you'll have spouses that get excited when you get a little bit better. You get a little bit better. Here's here's another one. Oh my God, you get a little bit. Here's another one. And then you start thinking, I'm never going to be good enough. You send me to a new thing. And so your mind needs to be aware of what it's telling itself, the entire journey.
Biological Aspects of Suicidal Thoughts
00:44:26
Speaker
I have a question. Do you think that in thinking of a serviceman or a servicewoman, that death and combat is a bigger risk or death by suicide? ah Death by suicide is the biggest risk. By far. Easily the biggest risk. Statistically, yeah. Even among the 1% or 2 to 99% of the work, suicide is still the most prevalent ahll cause of death.
00:44:54
Speaker
And you've seen that in special operations as well. As well. um I'd say at my former organization, it's probably 100% suicidal ideation and and divorces are probably 90. 92%. You drop down a little bit, the green berets, numbers are still higher, 40 to 60%. Suicides are higher. It's just Are you saying 100% suicidal organization in, in your former organization? You mean Delta there? Yes. yeah use a lot ideation nobody'll be feel them I didn't think that. Okay. Well, we've talked to all of them. I want to crash my car and it's above my, just thinking about running a car off the road, shoot yourself, whatever comes instantly and comes fast.
00:45:37
Speaker
And then it's gone for some others. It just keeps kind of going. Um, and it's repetitive on a cycle. And then you drunk one night, it's on a cycle. And then, you know, half of those suicides, I think are just, they're so blitzed out wasted. They're commiserating their misery. You know, they're writing letters to their families and laying all their watches and stuff out on the table. And then sometimes they wake up in the morning, hung over and I got too drunk to do it, right? Put the gun away, hide everything, don't say anything. You know, for God's sake, don't say anything. And then go about your day like nothing happened. now You got that on your mind. And probably the vast majority of the suicidal ideations, what Tom described is very, very common. But for a lot of these guys, so sad because they're like, I think of killing myself 10 times a day, but I don't want to die. I don't want to kill myself. Why am I having these thoughts? yeah Because the area of their brain that manages that is broken due to the traumatic brain injur injury. So it's biology.
00:46:33
Speaker
You know, so it's not even like people want it to be this sad story where like every vet sitting crying about war and that's just not the truth. ah stly We know it's not. The invisible wounds of four is a very sexy line, right? But you can scan your brain and see that it's no longer invisible. You can see what it is, where it is, and the doctor can tell you what it will cause in you. A doctor that doesn't know you, I had talked to a doctor out in LA. call me on the phone and talk to me. I saw your brain scan. I want to talk about it. There's a big difference between yesterday and today. So here's what's going on. You know, oh i he says, well, here's what's going on with your brain. Do you do this? Do you get angry? Do you get violent? to you Do you say stupid things even though you don't want to blah, blah, blah down the list? I'm like, Oh my God. Yes. Oh my God. Yes. He didn't even know I was a military.
00:47:14
Speaker
It goes, your brain part here is red. It should be blue here you're over here. And it's just laying
Tom's Delta Force Journey
00:47:18
Speaker
it out. We can fix this with this and this and this and this. And it's all on Amazon. I'm like, what? Yeah. They're a clinic that specializes and works a lot with the NFL. So it's very easy. They can tell you what's wrong with it and they can fix it. So it's not embarrassing. It's just like a physical injury. Your brain is physical. It's in your head. It doesn't make it mental. It's a biological injury, like a torn blood vessel, a torn muscle, a broken leg. So it's not weird to talk about, but getting that word out and breaking the stigma is the
00:47:45
Speaker
So, Tom, you enlisted, it would have been in the late 80s, is that right? eighty five no a six february What was your career like? How did you how did you eventually what pulled you towards special operations and how did that go? Because it seems like based on you know what you were saying and I was reading um your book, it was a pretty quick rise from from um being a teenage kid driving to a concert in Indianapolis to working in special operations.
00:48:18
Speaker
Yeah, I stumbled. I stumbled. A friend of mine came home. I like the army. It's great. I'm going to Germany. I thought, okay, I can get out of Indiana that way. And then I'm spending three years in Germany. and I'm taking, oh, this is horrible. This is boring every day. we don't We didn't have any money. So on the Mondays, I'd go do motor pool Monday. Okay. My vehicle had moved in a week, but I'm going to spend four or five hours checking it out. Okay. Monday's done. you know And then Tuesday, say all right, we're going to sit here and study out of a book. We just had not many money. so Tunesartan would take me to take the platoon to a couple of schools, French Commando, German Ranger School, platoon confidence training, which is run by Green Bres. I got a little different taste like this. This is exciting. This is a little bit more. This is funner, energetic. I'm a young stud at the times. I want to go do things. And they have cooler hats. They do have cooler hats. My friend was getting me to go back to the States.
00:49:06
Speaker
Um, after two years in Germany, I had another year left and he showed me a picture of his dad holding him up as a baby, you know, and just got his dad's green brown and I adopted that dream, you know, like, I'm going to take that dream. And, uh, I kind of went down that path to be a green beret. You know, find out years later, maybe two years ago, his dad had stolen valor. He wasn't even a green beret. I'm like, Oh, wow. ah took and Dream. Hey, well, I guess it has some upsides on occasion. Yeah, i the the and Greenberries focus on things like cultural work. um You know, sort of, you know, we have that whole or at least my whole understanding of it is the the constant battle from Vietnam of like winning over hearts and minds. Greenberries do a lot of that work in addition to operations. You have to I was always told when I was younger, you have to be smart to be a Greenberry.
00:49:57
Speaker
weird They're are more well-rounded than anyone else we help in our organization. They they are nation builders. They kill their humanitarian, man. They come in and they help nations get back on their feet. They teach them how to do it. you know They help rebuild infrastructure and defend themselves. And then they pack up and move out when they can defend themselves.
Selection Process for Delta Force
00:50:15
Speaker
They don't want to go and kill a bunch of people. nothing me nope but That's not even their mission. right And so how did you how long were you a Green Beret and how did you eventually end up in Delta Forest? ah I was a Green Beret for about a minute. I think i I finished language school. And when I was in language school trying to learn Persian forest at Bragg, knowing I was going to go to Kentucky in fifth grade.
00:50:39
Speaker
I was learning ah trying to learn Persian Farsi, and a couple of guys who I'd gone through the training school with um were from the unit, and I didn't know. And they came and approached me while I was in language school, and like, can't I be a number? Like, here, you need to call this number. We've been watching you. We think you have what it takes to join this organization. What do you think? I'm like, sure. Is it better? You know, I'll go there if it's better. And I took the number, put it in my pocket. I go, all right, I get my calling. I go, no, right now. I must. I'm on break yeah right now, and I call them and set up a date for a psychological evaluation and a physical fitness test a couple weeks down the road. Made that, got my date, and then just went. It was another one of those things where guys approached me like, hey, what do you think of this? I'm like, if it's better, I'll do that. ah Just my goal was to, what's the best thing I can do? And if this is boring, I'll keep going until I find something that grabs me. So your grand plan that got you to Delta Force was, I'm not going to be bored.
00:51:31
Speaker
yeah And the conventional forces can do that too. you They can bore you to a point of, I gotta to go do something. and What was selection like for Delta Force? I mean, especially for somebody who wasn't a ranger. Yeah, I didn't know. Nothing. People read books like Inside Delta Force or Delta Force by Charlie Beckwith and they talked about selections. I didn't read those but did i't really know what Delta Force was. So I was just going to a selection to place it with better. And selection was a individual. It was an individual thing. I mean, the only time you were with people and could talk to people were when you were in your barracks. And there was about 200 of us maybe, aren't some.
00:52:11
Speaker
And every day you get taught what to do so you can go to selection and not know a thing i don't know to read a map and i put on my boots i've never had a rucksack they literally and it's it's it's horrible teach you. From beginning to end how to pack a rucksack how to wear your boots how to read a map from. You know, space all the way down to 10 meter grid zone identifier. It's fine literally boring if you know what you're doing. But for nobody who, if for anyone who didn't know what they were doing, you could still go through selection. And so they teach you everything in instructional phase. You know, you got an admin phase, PT test, ruck march. Are you crazy?
00:52:49
Speaker
And you've got an instructional phase where they teach you how to do everything. They take you out, let you walk in the mountains, show you what it's like to walk in the mountains, teach you how to walk up a mountain, straight up and not, you know, lose strength in your legs, how to go down, wind, drink, everything. And then they turn you out on your own to practice by yourself. And then you go to stress phase. And stress phases, basically, you don't come to back to the barracks ever. You go to the woods and sleep at night. So. Oh, wow. Still humping. You know, 10, 20, 30 miles a day. um Every day, the points get longer and longer. you You get weaker and weaker and you think you got it down because it's like day one is one point. Day two is two. Day three is three. Day four is seven. You're like, what? That was wrong. Day eight is nine. You're like, wait a minute.
00:53:26
Speaker
you like What day is it this crap and i don't know what's next so they keep you on your toes you can't talk to each other you can help each other um they don't talk to you. They ride on the chalkboard. It's probably a computer screen now, but they used to ride on the chalkboard, tell you where to be, when to be, an and that's it. And then it trickled from the start of formation, B2U's boots, hat, you know, out back four rows in the line and so-and-so's in charge to, hey, meet out back around a, yeah like, wait a minute. And so they break you down from the military down to civilians. Like, I'll see you out back. And if you're on time, great. If not, whatever. I'll see you out back.
00:54:02
Speaker
Oh, interesting. so there So they're teaching you to be more independent in some ways. They're like unraveling some of what you got on the conventional side. Oh, yeah. And there's people that can't take it. There's officers or, so you know, NCOs out there going, line up. They said to be out here and line up. And I'm like, and get in uniform. I'm in flip flops and shirts. I'm like, it said be out back. It didn't say what to wear. It didn't say what time. It didn't say be in formation like it did before. I think that's different. You need to get it a lot, rah, rah, rah. And some dude sticks his head out the door. Come on in, guys. And it used to be hitting march out, march in front of you. Like military ship, fall into the classroom now. And the last day walks in and says, hey, opens the door and waves this, hey, guys, come on in. And you're like, what? Like, what is this? A little breakdown from law and order, military command, and you know, and and to, hey, buddy, what's up? Come on in here. and and And people can't take that. And so then you're done, you know, and then you got this long 40 mile march at the end.
00:54:56
Speaker
It's never, never, never ending. You think about quitting about 39 of those 40 miles. And, uh, if you make it, then you got a week long psychological evaluation on a board after that. And then they don't want you. And then if you, if they want you, they tell you selection's ongoing. and yeah Then you go to six months training courses, they tell you selection's ongoing. And then you go to jump school on demo and they're like selections ongoing. And then your first two years in the organization, like you're on probation selection is an
Suicidal Thoughts in Military Career
00:55:26
Speaker
ongoing process. And then my 20 years of the organization, I heard almost every week selections and ongoing process. Meaning they can unselect you at any time. They didn't tell you that selection never ends. ah americansianss of Always deciding if they still want you.
00:55:41
Speaker
we were talking about that idea of like, you had mentioned the idea of like, in your old unit, 100% of the people having suicidal ideations. i And I was curious for you, I'm assuming you're including yourself in that 100%. Was there was there a moment that you remember the first time whether it was in the military or before where you had a suicidal ideation? Yeah. Was I still in? I'm going to think back. I think it was, uh, yeah, my last two years I was injured. I had eight or 12 surgeries on my neck, back and shoulder. And, uh, I was, I was trying to stay fed. I was probably 40 pounds overweight. I was trying to still feel it and look fit and stay connected. And I was thinking this is it.
00:56:30
Speaker
the the new guys are coming up and surpassing me. they're They're keeping up with me. I can't beat everybody on my team anymore. I can't beat everybody in my troop. And while all these souls are into my command now and I don't think I'm a hundred percent. I'm thinking, wow, I'm i'm done. I've done what I'm sent here to do. And now there's nothing better than this. There'll be nothing higher than this, especially as broken as I am. So I started thinking about yeah drinking myself to death, shooting myself, though, not taking action on that. I'm really just thinking about it. Driving and all these flashes, I'm gonna drive my car, and I heard you bumping off this clip just in this, you know, this is just, I'm worthless. And then I just started to build over my years of retirement from
00:57:12
Speaker
I mean, 2008, probably the first times I remember, through 2010 retirement, it just went down real fast. Now you're not part of that. Well, because you lose your sense of belonging and purpose. I had none. I had none. I was chasing it, but I couldn't catch it. I didn't know what it was. It sounds like you were losing it already a little bit toward the end. And I think that's ah that's a thing with people who are elite, whether they're at the top of a political field or journalism or the military, that you can't imagine anything else like you've reached a zenith and now all of a sudden.
00:57:53
Speaker
You know, there are options, but you just can't see them. And I imagine like rewinding the clock and thinking about to a point like 1993 when you were in the Battle of Mogadishu. I'm sure none were any of those things on your mind then. Like, did you look at the old timers ever and say, oh, God, I hope that doesn't become me when I was a young guy?
00:58:16
Speaker
Get these old dudes out of the way. Let the young kids take it off. It was these old guys keep coming back. Oh, they're the founders, you ass. So I'm like, I don't care. Get them out of the way. Walking us. You know, let the younger guys move up. And then when I'm the older guy, I'm like, I'm shit. And it hit me. It hit me like that. Like, oh, I'm that guy who made fun of. Oh, no. Now I'm that guy. You know, I've been here 20 years. to To most people, that should be like, oh my God, you spent an entire career at one organization. To me, it's like, man, I just, you know, 20 years, it's got to hell. Yeah. What's, what's left. Hey, going back, do you remember the first time you were in combat? 1993. Okay. Yeah.
00:58:58
Speaker
I think my largest, my first largest, other than shooting at people and getting shot at and being nervous, but that's, that's what the army is.
Impact of the Battle of Mogadishu
00:59:05
Speaker
Yay. High five. We went, right? Um, I can tell stories. October 3rd, 1993 for the battle of Mogadishu was, was basically my indoctrination to a combat. Oh, wow. And it's like 18 hour firefight where we were trapped, you know, basically in enemy territory, trying to get out with with people dead everywhere, crashed helicopters, and just trying to fight off thousands of people who wanted us all dead. And that was, I think that was my light switch moment, where I was sitting on the bed that night, I don't know, midnight, maybe later. um You could hear this convoy trying to get it to us with tanks and machine guns and everything. You could hear them through the city.
00:59:42
Speaker
trying to fight their way to us. That was our group trying to rescue. And they were in firefights every block they were at with just everybody in town. And then they would get lost and turn around and try to find their way. They'd block the roads with burning tires, so they couldn't go that way. And they're just trying to find their way to us all night long. What have you guys gone out there for? um We went out there to capture Mohammed Farah Asanadeed, who was starving millions of people with food lack of food and intimidation. And all the UN food that we were sending in, he was keeping it, starving people. So we went in to kind of regulate, capture him, kill or capture him, it was capture up front. And his his lieutenants to try to negotiate and get this going, get these people fed and putting new people in charge, obviously, probably, and and let nicer people run the place.
01:00:32
Speaker
They didn't really go along with our plans. We had to go ahead and do it ourselves. And then, you know, going after a deed and then um going after his lieutenants and it finally led to that last battle where we captured a lot of his people, ended up being dead because they got shot by his own people you not trying to shoot us. And it was just, you know, that night on the bed, when I asked i asked my team there, it was kind of a cold guy angry anyway. I was like, Hey, you think they're going to make it? He looked at me, I was like, insert motivational speech here, right? He looks at me, he's like, I don't know. And he turned and walked off and I was like, well, shit, we're out of ammo. I pulled out my knife on the bed, lay it out and I'm thinking, all right. And I kind of calmed down. I was terrified, but I calmed down. I was like, all right, well, shit, this is it. This is it. So let's just do as much damage as we can, save as many of my people as I can. And then when it happens, it happens, you know, and I kind of felt a calm come over me.
01:01:23
Speaker
Because you had resigned yourself. Yeah, I'm i'm dead. And so I think it's the day that I, you know, kind of tipped. It changed. My post traumatic stress just kind of started taking a hold of me. And all I could tell myself was this will never happen again, which I couldn't, I couldn't
Long-term Effects of Mogadishu
01:01:40
Speaker
stop. When I had when I was at the Times, I had two colleagues who um committed suicide. One, it was it was very obvious. I remember running into him that morning, and he was he he wasn't a smoker, and he asked, what room do you guys go to smoke to smoke at? He asked me in the lobby, and I said, oh, it's up on the third floor at the end. And he was like, no, no, no, no, the place outside. And I was like, oh, that's up on like the 12th floor, and then you go this way, and you walk out.
01:02:09
Speaker
um There's no easy way to get to where he jumped from. So I'm not exactly sure how he did it, but he jumped off the side of the building. It was clear there was something wrong. The other colleague who committed suicide, he had been admitted to a psychiatric hospital. He had been given permission to go out with his family. He was happy. He was engaged. And then the next week he got permission again, and he was totally happy. was trying to understand why he jumped off the George Washington Bridge and it was like, oh, he was he was at peace. And I think one of the things that people don't really understand about suicide or depression is it comes in many forms. like There's no easy way to look at that guy sitting on the bed with his knife and know that like he might not be okay. hit Or
01:03:01
Speaker
It's the beginning of him not being okay. And you you had told me that there were a lot of, there were more suicides from the people who were at the Battle of Mogadishu than there were deaths. How many people did you guys lose that day? 19 that day. or I think two, three months ago, we just had another suicide of a friend of mine that brings the number to 23 suicides versus 19 KIA. So we're talking 1993 to now. So 21 years and 23 suicides. is that Did I get that right? Yes. Wow. if you If you take that compare, that's a small special operations organization. Now, if you take
01:03:43
Speaker
The military in whole over the last 20 years in Afghanistan and Iraq combined, you have like 5,683 combat related deaths. it You have between 50 and I don't know, they've gone up to a hundred thousand and suicides in the same amount of time. So the enemy can't touch us. The enemy cannot touch us in numbers. We're doing it ourselves. The inability to handle our own emotions and to admit it and get to work on it is is what's killing us.
Suicides and Military Families
01:04:09
Speaker
Yeah. Jen, I was going to ask you, um when you your work with um military families, I know there has to be fear about the combat deaths, like you were talking about that kid in the classroom. but Are there the same fears about suicide? Yes, there are. And I think that's the big unspoken monster in the room is
01:04:36
Speaker
You know, Tom and I do these retreats for special operation couples and individuals. And we even looked at having spouse retreats. And what we started to hear was, I can't leave my husband for four days. And it's not because I don't trust him. It's because I don't know if he'll be alive when I get back. Oh wow. oh It's a constant fear. It's something that weighs so incredibly heavy on the family, the spouses, the children, especially in special operations. So the number triples every single year of active duty, um soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines who take their life. So it's constantly around us. Death is constant part of our lives um and then the fear of it.
01:05:20
Speaker
right Right, everything, you know, yeah, you we we were talking about the idea that the gun is the thing in everybody's toolbox. But the thing that's in everyone's life is this idea of death, whether it's killing someone else or being killed yourself or. suicide or some. and And I think we think very clearly about the physical toll of war, right? You get your thumb blown off. That's very obvious. Or you have a back injury or paraplegic. And that I don't think we really think of the emotional and mental costs of the work for the servicemen and women. And we definitely don't think about those costs for those families. And we know these traumas gets passed down generation to generation to generation.
01:06:07
Speaker
is there Is there something you think either the military, the private sector, the nonprofit sector can do do to help? Yes. I could tell you it's our own fault. it's it's The government's fault for not putting it out there, but people have gotten out and created things and organizations and help that people can get. My wife was raised by um abusive mom. I mean, horrible, horrible. she was she was She had her own trauma growing up from a very, very young age. She doesn't pass it on to her children. She got to work. She took care of what she needed to take care of. She realized it didn't act like she was too good for it.
01:06:47
Speaker
And she got to work and she did not pass on. So it cannot be passed on if you do the work. So our recruitment is to tell people, you don't need help. You need training, right? Nobody wants help. Nobody helped you learn your job for the military. Nobody helped you drive a car. and They taught you. So we can teach you how to use the tools that we can give you to get past where you're at now. To deny that makes it your fault. You know better, do better. Now we're trying to tell people, here here's the information so now
Healing Journeys: Tom and Jen
01:07:12
Speaker
you know better. Now do better. It's in your hands. So a lot of it is in the hands of those warriors um who don't take action because they just don't want to admit it.
01:07:20
Speaker
yeah they it It's that also that common, you see what detectives, you see what journalists, you see it with all sorts of people where it's like, I, you know, my medicine is to drink my way or but certainly whatever it is, I'm not supposed to say it out loud. and You guys had to i remember earlier in the conversation, you guys had mentioned childhood trauma and and And Jen, I'm sorry you went through that as as well. but i But I was wondering a little bit about, for both of you, what your own healing journeys have been and what are some of the sort of important things that you think people can do? Because I was thinking about that not you know not asking for help and that fear of not
01:08:10
Speaker
ah of being seen as weak. I think it requires the self-awareness that you were talking about, Tom, but also some humility and vulnerability, you know, and thinking about your story, Jen. it So many people just want to close the door on an abusive childhood and they they convince themselves, I'm not like that. It's not gonna affect me, but really there's this cesspool under the door leaking underneath it and it will eventually overtake you. what What gave you guys the courage either individually or collectively to reach out and to do the work? Because the work is not easy.
01:08:49
Speaker
It's not. i think it was You have to pick your heart though. Both are hearts. I think it was love that got Jen to work on me. I didn't have anything to get to work on. i'm at the time showed She showed me I was not. And that showed me the way. it's um You need a passionate person and love somebody that that's strong enough to stick around. um I think we're made for each other. Her of whole life growing up. My childhood was not that bad. I got bullied by some other kids, but it wasn't that bad. My adult life was horrible. Her childhood was horrible, her adult life not so bad. Not so bad. So so in a way, Jen's childhood, as bad as it was, like a blessing from it was that it prepared her to help you with your adulthood. You you guys met after after you retired, Tom?
01:09:39
Speaker
Yes. ah About two years, only a year and a half after I retired, I wasn't looking too spiffy. Yeah, yeah it was an interesting come together. we At that time, I was working in commercial film and photography, so completely different, 100%, completely different world, um and was hired to do a project with special operations. and Then once I got there, I didn't want to leave. My whole dream of being a National Geographic photographer was quite honestly realized what this group. So yeah, I spent about three and a half years embedding this combat camera on stateside missions. Yeah. And did you feel like your life experience helped you realize that Tom was going going through something that he didn't know how to handle? well
01:10:28
Speaker
Yeah, you know it did not think it was very fun being raised by someone with complex PTS who my mother never addressed it. Her father was schizophrenic, long line of abuse um and in her family line, which I was determined it would stop with me. um But you know i I don't quite honestly know if I don't know. I don't know how I'd be different without that kind of trauma. I know I started get to work on myself at 14 after my suicide attempt and started therapy at that age. So quite honestly, I fell in love with therapy and my therapist became kind of a second mom.
01:11:07
Speaker
So I had taken a very long break from it. I felt like I was pretty healed. I meet Tom. I meet all these guys. I start saying, you know, like my therapist name was Anna. I was like, Anne saved my life. She changed my life. If she could do that for me, I know, you know, you guys could get the same kind of help because I was hearing, I spent probably 90% of my time with SEAL teams. And what I would hear from a guy is like, He just poured his heart out. And it was never about combat, by the way. In the years and years, I would hear stories. It was childhood trauma over and over and over and over again. Never dealing with it, saying, like, why can't I get over this shit now? I've seen way worse things now in war and combat. So, like, why is this stuff that my dad did, you know, back when I was 10, still bothering me? And it just becomes like the sandwich layer after layer after layer. And it gets so big that these guys are like, I don't even know how to take a bite out of it anymore.
Military Culture and Healing Opportunities
01:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, where does it even? yeah yeah And I'm wondering, i mean I may be wrong on this, but I'm wondering whether the act of going to the military terry sort of shuts off the opportunities to do some of those, some of that healing, maybe some of the other. ah yeah you gave all names for being nice that is a positive statement that's positively true to yeah and And the so for you so when you're stepping into his life, you've seen you have the hope you you believe that because I imagine as a 14 year old sort of embracing
01:12:38
Speaker
having seen lots of young people at that age embracing therapy and utilizing it when you are sort of like and not in the world's best environment does it does require a little bit of courage and at 14 to really be able to see that a parent is is so far off course, even beyond sort of like they're just not letting me do what I want, but like to see that they're really far off course takes courage. What what role Gen do you think courage for for some of these these operators plays in and getting help? i i I imagine some come to you, but there's probably a large group that wouldn't pick up the phone.
01:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, we we deal with those guys that don't pick up the phone, whether it's law enforcement, SWAT, special operations. And it's, it's so beat into them culturally, that it's not okay to be ah not okay, which is just, you know, I saw it on the wall in one operation unit, they had no fail mission really big. And I'm like, well, that's not true. Like you guys are gonna fail all the time. It's what do you do with failure? Right. How do you operate in failure? Not that there is no failure. like that You guys are getting set up essentially for failure, for like to have your egos just smash. and I sat in those team rooms and I watched them tear each other to
Courage in Seeking Help
01:14:01
Speaker
like nothing. and
01:14:02
Speaker
It would be over they called them a our sessions and I would look at Tom. I'm like, oh my god I thought that was a good mission and it was like two and a half hours of you went left instead of right You were three seconds slower. You didn't need to just oh wow, I never forget it and Tom goes You don't give each other pats on the back you do a good job. That's your job You stay alive But I'm going to dream your ass if you do one thing wrong because they could get you killed and it could get everyone killed and so that type of environment where you're always going to get an F. Always. And so they come home and what do they do? They do the AAR process. Yeah, I'm glad you cleaned the house, but you couldn't get to laundry. Oh, and this is dumb, but that isn't. I mean, i there's probably a million of your viewers and listeners right now going, that was my day. The laundry does itself. but You can sit there while the laundry machine washes itself. Yeah. It's always a better way to do shit, right? Right. Yeah.
01:14:56
Speaker
yeah That's after action review, right? The AAR, yeah. And so if they're used to every day picking apart every minute detail because it's life or death, guess how they view the rest of their life? Yes. Well, and view themselves, right? Internally, yeah. I mean, people will like- They can never be good enough. Yes, they look at them and they're like, oh my God, they're so cocky, they're so arrogant. I'm like, let me tell you, the men I have met have been the most insecure men I've ever met in this community, fragile because of what their job requires them to do with the emotional. No, we're not. It sounds like, Tom, there might be a difference of opinion here. I'd be really, really mad if she called me sensitive.
01:15:43
Speaker
Well, but one of the things you said earlier, Tom, that really really, really, really, really struck me was, you know, you had made a really brief comment about the importance of having a loving person. And I was just thinking about what we were talking about, all these people not reaching out for help, that the whether it's a spouse or it's a girlfriend or boyfriend or it's a friend or it's a family member, that they're probably When you're afraid to ask for help or afraid to ask for training as you put it, the it is so important to have somebody who can love you, see you, see you, ah actually see you for who you are as opposed to who you're trying to trying to display and who loves you for who you are and loves you enough. Do you think Jen saved her life?
01:16:37
Speaker
I can't answer that because you're yelling at me. I do. And she'll say, I can't save you. You saved yourself. But she certainly stopped me from taking my own life. Um, actively stopped me from taking my own life several times and, and stuck with it and showed me the path. She just continued to show me the path, patience and love and aggression at times. Cause I was putting her through the wringer too, but she was tough enough to stand there and go toe to toe with me because it was worth it.
Healing Journey Motivated by Loss
01:17:03
Speaker
And, uh, All that, all that love that you think doesn't exist after everything you go through, when you see it again, you know, and you grab ahold of that. That's what you don't let go of. Yeah. Gives you something to hold on to. I, one of the things that I was wondering why, you know, this is your healing journey. Um, and you could have probably read rode off into the sunset, but why, why did you decide to take what you learned and bring it to
01:17:31
Speaker
to other people. and And what do you think that the impact has been of that? ah Man, I'm tired of seeing my friends die. um I've had a lot of people, close friends. I've had a lot of people that were acquaintances and work friends that have taken their lives. And I know it's it's it's senseless. It's useless. It causes more hurt than it helps. Suicide does. It removes one person's problem and dumps it on everybody else around them. And I know how not even considering the suicides, I know how the people that have a committed suicide feel. The people like me, the people like my other friends who don't admit it and and and then the ones who quietly admit it, you know, but not publicly. That was really what helped me bring it to other people. The fact that if you have something that works so well and you don't give it to someone else, what are you doing with it? What are you doing with that thing if you're holding it for yourself? That's kind of selfish. and so
01:18:27
Speaker
why why Why hold on to a gift that would cost you nothing to share it? I could have written out and made $300,000, $400,000 a year doing very little work, but you know we chose to make a corner of that and and do the hard stuff because it matters.
Personal Growth Through Therapy
01:18:42
Speaker
How about you, Jen? I think I just got tired of hearing the same story on repeat. So Green Beret, Seal, doesn't matter ah what branch they ran, I'm hearing the exact same story. How do I be a better husband? How do I be a better father? How do I put this monster back in the box? And as Tom and I started going through very intensive therapy,
01:19:03
Speaker
um cognitive behavioral and emotionally focused. And we started going through these treatments, trans and um transcendental meditation, transcranial magnetic stimulation, psychedelics, we yeah supplementation, getting the heavy metals removed from his body, getting him off 16 pills from the VA. And then well then she took all that and put it in her own book. So it's like a self help manual on everything that we did. What's the name of that? What's the name of that book? arsenal of hope. Perfect. You know the word arsenal on it. ah You know what I mean? Our yeah hope is a dangerous thing. But I think Tom's right. If you if you find something that works, um you share it. And what was happening to us is Tom was getting better and better and better. And that man that I knew was under there um became louder and bigger. And the parts that he didn't like started to get smaller and quieter. And so we were like, we have to bring this to people. And quite honestly, the best testimonial we have is on our refrigerator.
01:20:01
Speaker
um a little drawing of a boy and a girl from a girl named Jane who said, thank you for saving my mommy and dad. And that's what sits in our fridge. And again, we didn't- We get messages like that all the time. My mommy and dad aren't fighting as much. Thank you. Our relationship's been better than it's ever been. You saved us. You saved our relationship.
Shared Human Experiences and Trauma
01:20:22
Speaker
Wow. We love hearing that, but we're like, no, no, no, you did it. We hear adults writing saying, my father served in Vietnam, and now is the first time I've understood.
01:20:32
Speaker
and oh you know What you guys are saying reminds me of this Anne Frank quote that I love. I think it was something like, no one has ever become poor by giving. ah True. Yeah, i thought those things. So I want to give you guys a chance if you want to. I think all of this to me is very powerful, but also doesn't just apply to people who are in the military or special operations. Like on some level, I think if we all sort of lived with this and I know institutions can play a role in it, but it's like that idea only you can really
01:21:11
Speaker
ultimately save yourself. But I think that there are lessons here that anyone could learn about self-awareness, perseverance, willingness to get help, and healing, and and and the importance of healing. And I just wanted to see see if you guys had any closing thoughts on what you would want people to take away from your words. These are human issues that we're talking about. The military is a different job. Everyone associates it with, oh, the killing and the death. Most people don't kill. Most people don't see people die. um They still have issues. We worked with law enforcement. We worked with other first responders during COVID, hospital workers, just seeing other people's trauma.
01:21:57
Speaker
You're not a warrior. You're not a commando. You you can't commando your way out. You need the tools. The top tier one special operations folks in the world can't manage it. They've been trained and trained and trained. You have mental health educators and and and personnel that have mental health issues. No one no one gets away from it, right? You have to deal with it. You wait the worse it gets. And then it's it's hard to do with no you get the last you want to do what you want to miss you just tackle it right away it's okay it's okay to not be okay it's okay to talk about. it yeah and For me it's to know that you're not alone so many people feel completely isolated they feel alone they feel crazy they feel different. I feel unheard on scene and just to that person you are seeing you are heard you are valuable and you matter.
Join the Silver Linings Community
01:22:48
Speaker
And you're never alone. There's always somebody that cares about you, that loves you, that wants you here. So true. So true. Well, thanks, guys. I appreciate it. If you'd like to join us for more discussions with me and other listeners, we can be found on most social media platforms, including a listener-driven Facebook group called the Silver Linings Fireside Chat. For deeper conversations with our guests and live conversations with other listeners, you can also join us on Patreon at www.patreon dot.com forward slash the Silver Lining Handbook.
01:23:26
Speaker
For those of you who are already Patreon members, check out our special bonus episode with Tom and Jen. I'm Jason Blair, and this is the Silver Linings Handbook podcast.