Transcript
Rafael Perez-Segura: Hello, welcome to Talking Pedagogy with Pat and Rafa. I'm Rafa.
Pat Watkins : I'm Pat.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And you're still Pat.
Pat Watkins : I'm still Pat.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And today's episode, we are going to reflect a bit on the role of the Atelierista and which we've always been talking the role of the Atelierista behind the scenes, but we recently went to a lovely a show of mark making by Atelieristas at Washington Market School.
Pat Watkins : Shout out.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Wonderful.
Pat Watkins : It was beautiful.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, that was gorgeous. And just connecting it was our second year going and the fact that we saw people we saw last year this year just really spoke to the community the building uh around the practice of the arts and children's meaning making that was just really powerful maybe pat you want to talk a little bit about what you saw and then also we can then jump into you know what the idea of the tellerista in general and what we're what we're noticing in the field
Pat Watkins : Yeah. Well, I just saw the tremendous amount of intentional intentionality behind the way that they introduced the tools to the children.
Pat Watkins : And I thought it was really interesting, you know, they used just black and white for five weeks.
Rafael Perez-Segura: That was crazy when I heard that. Yeah.
Rafael Perez-Segura: what felt for yeah Wow.
Pat Watkins : but But just a lot of stories that came out of the children's exploration with the Atelier Ristas and just their approach. And also, you know, that question about was was the scribbling art and do we need to define it as such?
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm. yeah
Pat Watkins : Or where is that held in its importance in the process for the children of exploration and learning? And so I thought that was a really interesting conversation because i I do think that sometimes we wonder the value of the scribble.
Pat Watkins : And, you know, where do we where do we hold those types of marks and what do they mean? What power do they have? What are children exploring? So I thought that was a really rich conversation. and then just again, the absolute.
Pat Watkins : beautifully and paid so much attention to the aesthetics of how they were designing this wonderful viewing for all of the audience to really be able to understand it.
Pat Watkins : And so, yeah, I would strongly suggest that anyone who knows about this school, reach out to them and and see if you can ever engage in some way with a tour or whatever, just to learn more about how they're approaching this.
Pat Watkins : They're also a Montessori inspired or school. I don't know. i wouldn't call it inspired.
Rafael Perez-Segura: reggie Reggie, sorry, remember the word?
Pat Watkins : just saw that word.
Rafael Perez-Segura: that this na You know, one of the atelieristas there, our teachers there, yeah.
Pat Watkins : Yeah. They created that word.
Pat Watkins : It was brilliant. Yes. So, and and they spent a lot of time talking about how those two can work together. So I thought that was a very interesting part of the evening as well.
Pat Watkins : Lots of food for thought.
Rafael Perez-Segura: A lot of food for thought. I loved how they set up the environment, how they showed the work. There were documentation panels with the children's voices and then really thoughtful interpretations of what they were exploring and why really unique ways of presenting work.
Rafael Perez-Segura: There were these PVC pipes that they, they they how do I describe it?
Pat Watkins : Yes.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Almost look like a coat rack they had made with PVC pipes, except on each leg of the of the coat rack, if you will. There were huge rolls of paper that were were rolled up but if you kept rolling them to one side or the other they unveiled a lot of different marks you could like turn one side of the roll and it would keep showing you new marks which i thought was brilliant which and they clarified the children did not paint on it like or or draw on it like that but they it was a long long long big banner if you will and they that's how they presented it so i just thought that was brilliant and just spoke to to um
Pat Watkins : Right.
Pat Watkins : Right.
Rafael Perez-Segura: the beauty of the importance of curation and the points of an Atelier Rista and a team that understands the value of how you present things matters as much as what that thing is.
Pat Watkins : yeah Yeah, absolutely. It really does. And and then i think what came up even for me too was that there were teachers there who were working without having an appointed atelierista.
Pat Watkins : And so they're playing both of those roles.
Rafael Perez-Segura: yeah. let's I mean, let's get into that and talk. Maybe we talk about the role of the Tellerista, and then we can get into the nuance of when you don't have an Tellerista.
Pat Watkins : Yeah.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So I guess we can backtrack a bit, Pat, like how you've you've been in many different contexts. For you, what is the role of Tellerista in the Reggie Inspired approach?
Pat Watkins : Well, I think that so many of us have to play that role, even though we may not be coming from a place of having been trained in fine arts, visual arts. And i think that... for those who are lucky enough to have an appointed Atelierista and an Atelier, which is the place where all of the studio, where all of this can take place. When you're lucky enough to have that, it's it's absolutely incredible.
Pat Watkins : And when you're not, you know, fortunate enough to have that, you're having to play both roles. And so
Rafael Perez-Segura: Thank you.
Pat Watkins : I think, but in answer to your question, what is the Atelierista? The Atelierista's role is to understand how to, from my perspective, from what I know about Atelieristas, is to understand how to introduce the 100 languages through very specific introduction of tools to children, giving them time, giving them space,
Pat Watkins : and giving them lots of opportunity to explore different materials. Materials that make up our world, like to construct and deconstruct, to really experiment with like what can happen with the material.
Pat Watkins : Because until children understand, right, the...
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Pat Watkins : The boundaries, the properties fully of a material, they don't know what new things they could do with it. And I guess for me, what excites me about the Reggio Emilia process and the way that we introduce learning or partner in learning with children is that we're trying to expand their understanding of the world so that they can make new things.
Rafael Perez-Segura: and
Pat Watkins : They can make new from recycled. They can make new from materials because they understand how to to have that creative spirit to say what might next be possible. And honestly, it gives me hope when children are having this time and this space and this opportunity to work in that way because our world needs a lot of that type of thinking right now. Yeah.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Absolutely.
Pat Watkins : So critical thinking and the ability to create new from from just understanding the properties that we walk about in in this world every day. That was a long answer.
Rafael Perez-Segura: i mean, one thing that strikes
Pat Watkins : Sorry, but you...
Rafael Perez-Segura: I love it.
Pat Watkins : Yes.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Well, I was going to say, want to pull something out from that answer, which you were getting at like knowledge of materials. And I think that's one of the biggest things I look for in someone who's an Atelier Rista, that they have a big knowledge have a lot of background knowledge and direct practice.
Pat Watkins : yes
Rafael Perez-Segura: with different materials that no materials and very, uh, very specific, i want to say intimate ways, almost like, uh, it's like, I don't have a formal background in the arts at all.
Pat Watkins : Yeah. Me either.
Rafael Perez-Segura: I grew up and we've talked about this before, we're on the podcast or off record, but I grew up without really, I had art teacher and had art class and that was definitely rich, but it wasn't an integrated part of my education.
Pat Watkins : Yeah. min neither
Rafael Perez-Segura: no So, so yeah so. I feel like and an atelierista that has a really large range of knowledge and practice with many materials can help people who are, who principally studied at early childhood or childhood or education in general.
Rafael Perez-Segura: so the pedagogistas, if you will, to to to combine their thinking and their knowledge to create beautiful provocations and environments for children that are really rich. So ideally you work together. i' like like that.
Pat Watkins : and And you know what? You're making me think of one of the atelieristas that I work with. And it's it's very much like what I witnessed when I went to Italy is that when we talk about the hundred languages, you know, the arts are represented in an atelier in many different ways.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
Pat Watkins : music included and drama included.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
Pat Watkins : so this one Atelier Risto that I'm working with, who's very new to all of this, but extremely creative and has... such an open mind to how she's approaching her role in this school. And she has found ways in her atelier to really step into all of those already. So doing movement, doing dance and music. And so she's she's ta tasked, but I think she feels fortunate too, with leading all of those languages.
Pat Watkins : never
Pat Watkins : who's She's finding ways in her space to include many languages, not only the fine arts, the visual arts, but drama,
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yes.
Pat Watkins : movement, music.
Rafael Perez-Segura: yes
Pat Watkins : So I think, when you're a creative person who has, and those are my backgrounds, uh, not visual arts, but the others. So when you're a person who finds yourself in this situation of, wow, I don't have an, uh, a Tilly Arista in my school to help me. How do you look for the resources, find, information
Pat Watkins : But it does go back to, and in very practical ways, how are you going to introduce each tool that you're putting out for children to use?
Rafael Perez-Segura: Okay.
Pat Watkins : How fast are you going to do it? How much time are you going to give them with that tool? And how many different ways are you going invite them to use that tool? And how can you really slow down and have your own experience as they're having theirs? You're learning with them and that's okay.
Pat Watkins : But yeah, just that thinking of how do you play both roles? And so that is something that I'm passionate about supporting teachers who find themselves in that position. But I think all of us can step into that no matter where you're teaching.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, I mean, as as someone at a direct school, Mi Casita, where we have a wonderful Atelierista, we're really lucky have Atelierista. I do encourage all the educators, including myself, to internalize your inner Atelierista, if you will, and and learn.
Pat Watkins : Yes, I love that.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And I've learned so much from Nicole, our Atelierista. And one thing that I've really been working on is, especially when I may be really overwhelmed, is like, I'm going to start very simple and build from there with the kids.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So
Pat Watkins : Mm-hmm.
Rafael Perez-Segura: simple Simple meaning, like, if I want to do paint, I will get paper.
Pat Watkins : Yeah.
Rafael Perez-Segura: I'll talk to my tellerista about maybe the proper paper to use that that can take the paint, right, to for example. and then I'm going to choose one color. I don't know.
Rafael Perez-Segura: We'll just say one of the primary colors. And then give one brush or not even, it could just be fingers, right? Again, ever thinking of simplifying and then present that to the children in a way that invites them to use it. Maybe it's very, very organized on a table or on the floor with something under it.
Rafael Perez-Segura: I'm thinking of two year olds and three year olds right now and see what they do.
Pat Watkins : and
Rafael Perez-Segura: And that's where the documentation happens. And then talk to so talk to somebody after the fact about what I'm seeing, my tellerista, someone else. and see where go from there and and over time develop a more more of those really elaborate things we might see when we think of Reggio Emilia.
Pat Watkins : Yes.
Pat Watkins : Yes. Yeah, I think it's going to look different in every setting. And that's what I'm learning is that, uh, I love what you're saying though, which is,
Pat Watkins : Don't be afraid to do just what you said, which is create an invitation that is simple and that is about discovery at the very baseline.
Pat Watkins : And then from their build without feeling this need to throw everything at them to explore that one paint.
Rafael Perez-Segura: yes
Pat Watkins : No, maybe just the paint and just the paper, like you said, and see what they end up doing. Maybe they're going to ask you for a tool.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Exactly. Exactly.
Pat Watkins : you know but But giving that opportunity for it to develop at that very beginning, you'll learn and then you'll grow in confidence as to what to do next, right? Like I think we can all learn about the arts through just being willing to engage
Rafael Perez-Segura: Absolutely.
Pat Watkins : And the unknown, which is what it means to be creative anyway, right? To create something from nothing that didn't exist before and you don't know what it will be, but you're brave enough and courageous enough.
Pat Watkins : This comes from that wonderful article, ra Rafa, the one that we love so much.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yes, creative.
Pat Watkins : The name of it? Yeah, creative.
Rafael Perez-Segura: name is created The creative. In the show notes, I put in the show notes because if I forget exactly.
Pat Watkins : Yeah, but we'll put it in the show notes. We refer to it all the time, but we can never remember the name of it.
Rafael Perez-Segura: it We've read it for so many years. a Creativity something. took Yeah, anyway.
Pat Watkins : But that is what we want our children to be able to do is to be brave enough to step in, not knowing what is expected, but to create something from their own imagination and abilities that is okay, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be anything even. It's just the journey of the exploration, right?
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, yeah. So awesome. I mean, so mean maybe we just talked briefly about through all the arts and some some tips here and there about how to engage with it.
Rafael Perez-Segura: You know, one thing that I've noticed in working with Atelier Ristas there's a beautiful bridge with the pedagogy and the Atelier Ristas world. And i think, Pat, you were you were starting to bring people together, not a little community about of Atelier Ristas principally, but I think anyone is invited who's interested in Reggio, but with a focus on the arts.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Sure, smart.
Pat Watkins : Yeah, we're just we're just starting this group and it's free. And it it comes from my experience in coaching Atelier Reisters who are working in different contexts and also working with teachers who don't have Atelier Reisters, as we've been saying throughout our conversation today. And providing a space where everyone can learn from one another.
Pat Watkins : It'll be once a month and it'll be an hour. And we invite anyone who is working in the Reggio Emilia approach and would like that support and that community to come and join us.
Pat Watkins : And we'll, I guess, post the information, Rafa, in the notes.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, show notes as well. So we'll put a link to the sign up if you're interested and and as well as the article. So yeah, that's exciting.
Pat Watkins : I think in America we have a real need for there to be more spaces, A, for the arts to be nurtured. That's not happening very easily in a lot of our schools. And B, for atelieristas and teachers working in this way to really feel like they get more support because it can be a very challenging role. So we're hoping that this is going to be fun and have a lot of robust conversations.
Rafael Perez-Segura: I've been thinking of people who are art teachers who may not see themselves atelier-reces in the regio way to maybe consider joining to explore and learn more.
Pat Watkins : Absolutely.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Because I would love to construct this culture of the arts is an integrated part of education period.
Pat Watkins : Absolutely.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So, which is something I didn didn't get the benefit from as much, the integration part, and think that it's really key to any sort of growth in our approach to how we educate everyone from other ones to our adults ourselves.
Pat Watkins : Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for wrapping that up in that beautiful way.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, well, with that, Pat, I think that's it for now. And we'll see everyone next time.
Pat Watkins : Yeah, looking forward to it. See then.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Ciao.
Pat Watkins : ciao.
