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Why do we care about quality in the first place? Assessment Pt 2
10 Plays2 years ago
Join Emily and Rafa as they dive deeper into the idea of assessment, what we mean by quality, and why do we even care. We swear it's not as technical as the last one was. And, yes, there are some F bombs here and there.
Any questions, comments, or ideas, feel free to email us at pedagogyofthedistressed@gmail.com
Abrazos,
Rafa & Emily
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Bedtime Routines
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello, Emily.
00:00:03
Speaker
Hi, Rafa.
00:00:04
Speaker
How are you?
00:00:05
Speaker
I'm well.
00:00:06
Speaker
I'm a little tired.
00:00:07
Speaker
It's a 7-ish p.m.
00:00:09
Speaker
on a Monday.
00:00:10
Speaker
I'm keeping you up past your bedtime.
00:00:12
Speaker
I feel like you go to bed at like 8.30, I'm guessing.
00:00:18
Speaker
That would be a wise time.
00:00:20
Speaker
I tend to go to bed more between 9 and 10, sometimes 10.30.
00:00:23
Speaker
Sometimes 11.30.
00:00:23
Speaker
I bet you wake up early.
00:00:31
Speaker
I do wake up at six pretty regularly.
00:00:36
Speaker
And you don't even have a baby.
00:00:37
Speaker
I have a baby that makes me get up.
00:00:39
Speaker
Yeah, I don't have a baby.
00:00:41
Speaker
That's just, you have lots of babies at work.
00:00:45
Speaker
But they don't live with me.
00:00:46
Speaker
It's an important caveat.
About the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:52
Speaker
Well, for those who are not familiar, I'm Rafa.
00:00:56
Speaker
And I'm here with my co-host and one of my best friends of life, Emily.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:01
Speaker
This is it.
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:06
Speaker
And this is Pedagogy of the Distressed, a podcast where we talk about things that distress us.
00:01:12
Speaker
Maybe they're not distressing, but they're on our mind.
00:01:15
Speaker
But it rhymes with oppressed.
00:01:19
Speaker
But we are often distressed.
00:01:21
Speaker
Even if we're excited, it's distressing us.
00:01:23
Speaker
We're like, I want to do more, right?
00:01:24
Speaker
It's like, oh my gosh, I'm so distressed.
00:01:26
Speaker
I really want to talk about it.
00:01:27
Speaker
Woo!
00:01:29
Speaker
Woo-hoo!
00:01:29
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:01:30
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Role of Assessment in Education
00:01:32
Speaker
So for today's episode, it's a continuation of the last episode, which to briefly recap, we were talking about assessment, how the use of assessment has been used often to control schools, to control teachers, to control kids, and talking about different ways of assessing teachers.
00:01:54
Speaker
and even asking different questions of why do we assess and should we even assess, right?
Quality Measurement in Early Childhood
00:02:02
Speaker
And so we talked more in the context of classrooms and today we're gonna explore a little more of this idea of quality programs because at least in New York City where I teach in preschool, it's a constant thing.
00:02:15
Speaker
We need quality early childhood care.
00:02:18
Speaker
And so there's been a lot of initiatives to measure what quality is,
00:02:23
Speaker
But everything falls a little short.
00:02:26
Speaker
And it has actually been very frustrating and distressing for me at times to watch it.
00:02:32
Speaker
To watch it happen and at times be subjected to some of these quality standards that can feel very narrowing and actually subvert quality.
Reflective Practices in Education
00:02:46
Speaker
But then it's the question, what is quality, Rafa, then?
00:02:48
Speaker
I've taken a thinking lens to it.
00:02:53
Speaker
And then thank you.
00:02:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:54
Speaker
So there's just been this thinking lens protocol inspired by this book.
00:03:00
Speaker
Not inspired.
00:03:00
Speaker
Directly comes from this book, From Teaching to Thinking by Anne.
00:03:09
Speaker
It's right next to me.
00:03:10
Speaker
Ann Pello and Margie Carter.
00:03:11
Speaker
I was going to say Ann Carter and Margie Pello.
00:03:15
Speaker
Ann Pello and Margie Carter.
00:03:18
Speaker
And they have this approach to thinking through children's play and making sense of it.
00:03:26
Speaker
And I've been playing around with using it in school and also just using it to think through other problems in my personal life.
00:03:33
Speaker
Not even problems, just things that are curious to me.
00:03:35
Speaker
And in this case, this conversation and this podcast.
Perspectives on Assessing Quality
00:03:39
Speaker
And so just to briefly summarize the steps of the protocol are first to start with how, what moves you or what feelings does a moment stir in you?
00:03:48
Speaker
And then followed by exploring, you know, what's the point of view of the child when thinking of children's play?
00:03:53
Speaker
But in our case, we're going to talk about, you know, what's the point of view of society?
00:03:56
Speaker
What is society trying to figure out?
00:03:59
Speaker
And then moving on to, you know, what in the environment influences children's play?
00:04:04
Speaker
But for us today, I think we'll be focusing on what in the system's influence what's happening now, which you've talked about a lot in the past, so we may not dwell too long on that.
00:04:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:15
Speaker
And then continue to considering more perspectives, be more explicit about the theories we're coming from, and then landing on some reflections and a next step.
00:04:23
Speaker
So we're going to solve everything today.
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:25
Speaker
Solve it all.
00:04:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:26
Speaker
I'm excited for this because it's not something I, I, this is something that Rafa really came with on his mind.
00:04:36
Speaker
So I would love to start with like a little background.
00:04:39
Speaker
So when we talk about, cause last week in our part one episode of this, we were talking about how do we assess or, you know, even assessments, a loaded term, but how do we determine what a child is?
00:04:51
Speaker
is learning about what they're curious about and how we can
Critique of Standardization in Programs
00:04:54
Speaker
build the next learning experience for them based on where they're at in the moment we're assessing them.
00:05:00
Speaker
Right.
00:05:01
Speaker
We talked about all the different ways schools have approached it and are approaching it and ways that we wish that they would.
00:05:08
Speaker
And often we talk about assessment being too narrow because we rely on tests and things that are pre-made standardized and
00:05:15
Speaker
in an effort to get a gauge about how we can gauge learning in students across many, many schools and many, many districts and states.
00:05:23
Speaker
And so when we think about moving from assessing the child to the program, I'm curious because I think maybe people don't really think about this, but like, what does that mean?
00:05:33
Speaker
Why do we need to do that?
00:05:34
Speaker
What is the point?
00:05:35
Speaker
Yeah, why do we need to do that?
00:05:36
Speaker
Why do we need to assess programs?
00:05:38
Speaker
Maybe talk about how is it usually done?
00:05:40
Speaker
So when you tell me, like, what is the why?
00:05:43
Speaker
Why do we need program assessment?
00:05:46
Speaker
Oh gosh, why do we need program assessment?
00:05:52
Speaker
I do think we need a
Education as Economic Investment
00:05:53
Speaker
sense of like, I think it's ultimately how well are we answering that question for ourselves as a society about how,
00:06:01
Speaker
this is really what we want for our future and for now, especially for our children.
00:06:05
Speaker
Is what?
00:06:05
Speaker
Like the programs, like design, like the curriculum design, like what?
00:06:09
Speaker
Well, I don't know.
00:06:10
Speaker
It depends.
00:06:11
Speaker
It's just, but that's the question to me.
00:06:12
Speaker
And that's, that's like, and then from there.
00:06:16
Speaker
So, but what's distressing to me is that I think that assumption, that why question is
Contrasting Views on Education's Purpose
00:06:22
Speaker
often swept under the rug.
00:06:23
Speaker
It actually has to do with a quote actually from the book.
00:06:28
Speaker
Maybe I'll start there because, um,
00:06:30
Speaker
This really got me.
00:06:31
Speaker
It really spoke to me because I've thought this, but other people have thought about this way longer than me.
00:06:39
Speaker
And I've already... Let's have an interesting distillation of it, which is really what we're... Yeah, interesting distillation.
00:06:46
Speaker
So here, this is from page 280.
00:06:50
Speaker
from a section by Margie Carter saying, telling the stories that matter.
00:06:54
Speaker
I'm going to read a bit.
00:06:55
Speaker
So education scholar and visionary Peter Moss says that when we examine, quote, contrasting stories, confronting each other, offering listeners conflicting alternatives, unquote, we begin to critique our practice in necessary and fundamental ways.
00:07:11
Speaker
He challenges us to scrutinize the dominant story that has shaped early childhood today.
00:07:18
Speaker
The story that investing in early childhood will lead toward our national success in a fiercely competitive global economy.
00:07:25
Speaker
And I will just say in parentheses, I think this is how all of education is viewed from the dominant narrative in the States, at least.
00:07:35
Speaker
Moss says this story tells us, quote, invest early and invest smartly, and we will all live happily ever after in a world of more of the same, only more so.
00:07:46
Speaker
Reassured by this story of early childhood education as a solution to some of our most immediate problems and anxieties, it is tempting to sign up to it rather than ask difficult questions about what sort of world we want to embark on, the hard, messy, and political task of clearing the deepening slow road.
00:08:04
Speaker
I never actually read that word out loud.
00:08:06
Speaker
Slow, slaw, S-L-O-U-G-H, slow, of inequality and injustice that breeds so many of the social problems that early childhood education is supposed to solve, end quote.
00:08:18
Speaker
And so I feel like right now, assessment of programs and of schools in general, evaluations,
The Push for Academic Focus vs. Play-Based Learning
00:08:26
Speaker
I kind of want to say now, evaluations are based on this narrative that is named or unnamed of investing to reap more profit, more benefits in the future.
00:08:43
Speaker
And what you and I, or what I'm reacting to,
00:08:45
Speaker
The thing that moves me or that distresses me about assessment evaluation tools is that they're clearly based on this narrative.
00:08:52
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:08:54
Speaker
But they're not.
00:08:54
Speaker
Schools should produce.
00:08:56
Speaker
And even if we're thinking about early childhood, which reminds me that that can be like two and three year olds, like two.
00:09:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:03
Speaker
Any infants.
00:09:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:04
Speaker
Anybody that's not in school.
00:09:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:06
Speaker
Children should be learning the skills that they will need to eventually be a productive worker, because we're the idea is if you invest early, you'll have a more productive person by the end of their life.
Systemic Issues in Education Evaluation
00:09:21
Speaker
mandated schooling right in the United States.
00:09:24
Speaker
And so it really, it really grinds my gears.
00:09:27
Speaker
It is really, it really, speaking of machines and capitalism, it, it's like, I just don't believe, I realized that I just don't believe that that's fundamentally what education is about.
00:09:42
Speaker
And yeah,
00:09:44
Speaker
And it really gets to that for me in terms of why the whole attempts to evaluate programs at the moment really feel like something to defend myself from or defend ourselves from rather than embrace, which again, we all want quality.
00:10:03
Speaker
I just want to mean the same thing.
00:10:05
Speaker
And I don't think I do.
00:10:07
Speaker
So what distresses you, if anything at all, about quality?
00:10:13
Speaker
Reading that.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think it's distressing that I hadn't, I've thought about that before, but I haven't thought about it for a long time.
00:10:19
Speaker
And sometimes when you've thought about something for a long time, it distresses you anew.
00:10:23
Speaker
And even though it's like, I think a lot of us find different ways when we're, when people are aware of the way systems perpetuate racism, inequity, harm, oppression, right?
00:10:35
Speaker
Nothing is surprising, but it's still surprising.
00:10:38
Speaker
somehow evokes a feeling similar of surprise, right?
00:10:41
Speaker
That's like probably what distress is, right?
00:10:45
Speaker
And it's like, wow, I haven't thought about, we get so caught up in the day-to-day practices and it happens, like you said, prepping people, prepping, teaching, treating, approaching education, specifically K through 12 education as investment in a future workforce, which is what I think people mean when they say future society, quote unquote, because what we really mean is people who are valuable to the labor market.
00:11:09
Speaker
is that we only value people for what they can produce.
00:11:13
Speaker
Right.
00:11:14
Speaker
And I, I just am distressed every time I forget that that's the point of this system is to squeeze as much out of us in terms of being productive as possible.
00:11:27
Speaker
And I think that I, a lot of that's like,
00:11:31
Speaker
my racial, like, like my racial positionality as a white woman, it's like, I've been very like benefited from this system.
00:11:39
Speaker
And so I've, I've been taught to buy into it that like the more you do and the more you put out, the more you will be rewarded.
Safety and School Evaluation
00:11:45
Speaker
And obviously people in different positionalities for me have a very different and more in tune perception of the myth of meritocracy.
00:11:55
Speaker
Um, and I think that, um,
00:11:58
Speaker
realizing all the things that have disturbed me about early childhood can be encapsulated in that disturbing realization that what's happening.
00:12:05
Speaker
I've always like been pissed off about the push down of like college readiness into fucking kindergarten, fucking preschool.
00:12:12
Speaker
I'm like, why the fuck are we taking away center and play-based learning to do skill, skill-based quote unquote, like doing big like scare quotes here to do like serious skill-based teaching, you know, which is probably why I get pissed off about science of reading shit because it's like trying to push down like,
00:12:28
Speaker
People need to get these reading skills as early as possible.
00:12:32
Speaker
You know, in my mind, I can parse out that some people really do that with really good intention because they want people to have the skills to access the written word.
00:12:42
Speaker
But it also pushes, it's a push down of academic quote unquote knowledge, which is coded terms.
00:12:47
Speaker
We're talking about Eurocentric ways of knowing, right?
00:12:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:51
Speaker
Center around things that have been sanctioned by the Western Academy, right?
00:12:55
Speaker
It's really not even the full Academy that includes things like
00:12:58
Speaker
sociology, critical race studies, literature, the arts.
00:13:03
Speaker
It's really things that are going to be productive and useful.
00:13:05
Speaker
Anyway, sorry, I'm going on.
00:13:07
Speaker
No, no.
00:13:08
Speaker
I think we'll talk, we'll definitely talk more in that and like the space for that around like different perspectives, right?
00:13:15
Speaker
So I do want to revisit that.
00:13:17
Speaker
in terms of the rationale, right?
00:13:19
Speaker
Because I think there are things we need to respond to in terms of rationale and practicalities, right?
00:13:24
Speaker
And how it fits together.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:27
Speaker
I think like what, I guess the core thing that we're finding is that so much of you, what we are so distressed by is like when we come to a conversation and we're like, okay, we're all here for the equity meeting and then we start talking and we realize that there's a completely different definition of equity that's based on
00:13:45
Speaker
the myth of meritocracy, for example.
00:13:47
Speaker
And like the idea, if like we all have the same conditions, we can all get ahead, right?
00:13:51
Speaker
We can all, when a lot of us are coming with the perspective that, no, we need to question the way we dole out the pie, right?
00:14:00
Speaker
We need to make the pie bigger.
00:14:01
Speaker
We need to like figure out how, like why some people get more of the pie than others, right?
00:14:06
Speaker
And that's our vision of equity.
00:14:08
Speaker
And so I think like that, that's what can be so disturbing.
00:14:10
Speaker
You can come to a meeting about early childhood and be like, we need to expand early access to early childhood education.
00:14:15
Speaker
And some people think it means having more like academic, having standardized testing, like push into preschool.
00:14:24
Speaker
Right.
00:14:24
Speaker
And like having standardized systems to measure what preschoolers know.
00:14:29
Speaker
And so just round way about like, we don't have
Societal Impact on School Assessments
00:14:33
Speaker
those wide conversations.
00:14:34
Speaker
We don't talk about why we need this and what we're trying to measure in our assessment of programs.
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it brings me to like, you know, what is society and maybe what are different aspects of society trying to figure out here?
00:14:47
Speaker
Because there's, I'm going to, I guess, simplify a bit, but there's people who are really invested in capitalism as it is in the States.
00:14:57
Speaker
Right.
00:14:57
Speaker
And I guess arguably around the world who definitely have no shame around education being for
00:15:08
Speaker
profit and good workers and there's other people in other communities who want liberation and don't want that to be the only thing i think lots of people want to be productive in communities right right that's not at the expense of the earth and each other and i guess in a broad sense those are kind of the two things the two big camps i see um
00:15:36
Speaker
And they do have some assumptions that are pretty opposed to each other.
00:15:41
Speaker
And so I think I'll shorten it to the hyper-capitalists are really into, yeah, just like do whatever you need to do to get those test scores to make sure the kids are reading so that, not so they can enjoy reading, but so they can be really strong workers and go to college for that reason.
00:16:02
Speaker
Whereas I feel like many other communities,
00:16:06
Speaker
Who, yeah, like they want their children to read.
00:16:08
Speaker
I want my kids to read.
00:16:09
Speaker
I want my kids to write.
00:16:12
Speaker
Because it's empowering to them and it's enjoyable to them and it's in and of itself seen as very useful to them.
00:16:21
Speaker
And can be used for more liberatory means than simply writing a report, which again can be useful.
00:16:31
Speaker
And so I think that's what two camps in society are figuring out.
00:16:34
Speaker
But what do you think?
00:16:36
Speaker
Yeah, no, that kind of encapsulates.
00:16:38
Speaker
That's a nice review of what I think we've been distressed by in the past about thinking we're going...
Criticism of Standardized Testing
00:16:50
Speaker
realizing like, because when you're asked to develop an assessment of a program, you're asked to say, okay, well, we need to figure out a metric for measuring the success program.
00:16:58
Speaker
Right.
00:16:59
Speaker
And more like validity.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:02
Speaker
If it's doing its job or not, basically.
00:17:03
Speaker
Right.
00:17:04
Speaker
Because, um, I think the idea of programmatic assessment or school assessments, right.
00:17:10
Speaker
Um,
00:17:11
Speaker
have resulted in things like standardized testing becoming really the norm.
00:17:15
Speaker
It's like people I don't think really appreciate that standardized testing as it is today measures the success of a school district and the way that teachers teach.
00:17:25
Speaker
That's how it's treated more than the success of an individual child, even though the child ends up feeling vulnerable.
00:17:32
Speaker
the brunt of the pressure because we're measuring their performance on a test.
00:17:35
Speaker
But ideally what it's supposed to do is just like measure what they know so that we can say, Oh, kids in the 20 to 21 school year did this well on this test versus other years versus other district in the same year, you know, and it's supposed to measure the success.
00:17:51
Speaker
That's like, that is programmatic assessment, but people think of it as individual child assessment because that's,
00:17:57
Speaker
how it feels in school and nobody explains to children on a wide scale or in a serious way what they're doing in this type of thing.
00:18:06
Speaker
Right?
00:18:07
Speaker
And I think like we see that that's a collapse of the why.
Personal Bias in Program Assessments
00:18:11
Speaker
We don't talk about...
00:18:12
Speaker
if you teachers don't even know it's on the test we don't know what we're assessing when we give them this assessment we just trust that it's going to test the knowledge that we identify as necessary or valuable talking pineapples yeah and like we talked about the test i don't think we would see that and so i think a lot of us feel i didn't feel like i had any really valuable assessments of
00:18:37
Speaker
my teaching or of my school as a whole, right?
00:18:40
Speaker
Their performance, there wasn't, we didn't have means for that.
00:18:43
Speaker
And we're always trying to find ways to do that.
00:18:47
Speaker
And I think it's, it's difficult.
00:18:48
Speaker
What about your, what does program assessment look for you look like for you in the past or in other experiences that you've had?
00:18:54
Speaker
Lots of rubrics.
00:18:56
Speaker
This means quality.
00:18:57
Speaker
This doesn't mean quality, very black and white way.
00:18:59
Speaker
So the block should be here and labeled like this.
00:19:02
Speaker
We don't have a label on every single thing.
00:19:05
Speaker
you're not a strong program.
00:19:08
Speaker
Things like that.
00:19:10
Speaker
I've had more open-ended rubrics as a teacher that have been helpful.
00:19:14
Speaker
But at the end of the day, the reflection part of it is very, you have your mid meeting and then you reflect and okay.
00:19:22
Speaker
And you don't talk about it again until the end of the year.
00:19:24
Speaker
And then you either get hired or you don't.
00:19:28
Speaker
like it's not really it doesn't really feel like it's meaningfully for reflecting i thought it's the reflection is more just like reflection is good so we should do it here right right and but this is really just like a way for organizations to reward people who they want to reward and push people out who they want to push out
00:19:49
Speaker
Because if your evaluator likes you, they'll figure out a way to give you a good...
Trust Issues in School Evaluations
00:19:54
Speaker
Oh, 100%.
00:19:54
Speaker
And I've been on the benefiting end of that.
00:19:56
Speaker
Don't get me wrong.
00:19:57
Speaker
Totally.
00:19:58
Speaker
I am.
00:19:58
Speaker
I've been affecting the evaluator and the evaluated.
00:20:01
Speaker
And I let personal relationships affect both.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:08
Speaker
I guess going back a little bit to what really gets me about this emphasis on just quality, I feel like it's based on a lot of lack of trust.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:19
Speaker
Like this, like, oh, we really need a valid assessment because we can't trust anybody in those schools, right?
00:20:27
Speaker
And I wonder, well, anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself because I have another way of thinking about it, right?
00:20:33
Speaker
But trust is a huge part of it and I see a lack of it.
00:20:37
Speaker
And we've talked a good amount already about the systemic issues that influence why assessments are how they are.
00:20:43
Speaker
All that has to do with money and foundations and people who decide things who are not educators.
00:20:50
Speaker
There's also this idea of like, I want to take a moment and just consider other perspectives.
00:20:56
Speaker
And specifically, I wanted to start off with this idea that, you know,
00:21:03
Speaker
there have been situations where a parent talks to me and it's like, listen, like I'm thinking of this school and one is like really like militarized and I don't know how I feel about it, but it's safe.
00:21:16
Speaker
And then my other local school and my public school is, it's just not safe.
00:21:24
Speaker
And so, and no learning happens there.
00:21:27
Speaker
And so, like, those instances, I wonder what, you know, one says, because for me, like, yeah, on that level, you do what you have to do in that sense.
00:21:38
Speaker
Right.
00:21:38
Speaker
Right.
00:21:39
Speaker
I don't think then that means that the militarized, strict, no holds bar thing is the systemic answer though.
00:21:50
Speaker
And so does that make sense to you?
00:21:52
Speaker
And if it does, how do you think through that?
00:21:56
Speaker
Like in that way, you're acting, if a parent comes to you and asks for your opinion on two different schools, like you're playing the role of an informal person.
00:22:07
Speaker
right?
00:22:08
Speaker
A program evaluator and trying to measure the merits of one versus the other.
00:22:12
Speaker
And like sometimes looking at, yeah, I guess like what I'm hearing is like sometimes like it can, a school might hit all of like the
Broader Responsibilities of Schools
00:22:21
Speaker
negatives that you would advise against or that you see is not being,
00:22:26
Speaker
liberatory or what, I don't know your criteria for what makes a good school, but like, I can guess.
00:22:31
Speaker
And I think that sometimes even though it might, a school might be all the negative things you would look for.
00:22:40
Speaker
It's like, there's one thing that just trumps everything.
00:22:42
Speaker
And if it's safety and like, right.
00:22:44
Speaker
I was going to say safety, physical and emotional safety for sure.
00:22:49
Speaker
You go back to that, even though that's like Eurocentric, like there are many,
00:22:53
Speaker
different ways of understanding that there's like, if your basic needs aren't met and one of the most basic safety, then you're not going to, that doesn't matter.
00:23:03
Speaker
Like it has to meet that threshold first.
00:23:05
Speaker
And so there are hierarchies, there are like, you know, priorities and things we have to recognize as like the basic things you need to meet.
00:23:13
Speaker
I will say what's interesting having worked in schools that are unsafe is that like, you know,
00:23:20
Speaker
for the children, for the teachers, for all of us together.
00:23:23
Speaker
And we were still doing evaluations of like the academic learning without thinking about, have we met this threshold for basic needs?
00:23:33
Speaker
So that's missing.
00:23:34
Speaker
In this school feel safe.
00:23:35
Speaker
I would guess that a lot of the kids would say no for a lot of different reasons, you know, as of the way teachers, teachers treat them because of the way that like, you know,
00:23:46
Speaker
teachers treat them this, the kids act out, you know?
00:23:48
Speaker
So there's like inter, there's so many levels and we don't have good ways for talking about it because schools often are only evaluated for their academic achievement.
00:24:01
Speaker
Right.
00:24:03
Speaker
And so it's like, yeah, it's, um,
00:24:09
Speaker
I think there's been a narrowing of what we assess in a lot of schools and it focuses on our kids learning.
00:24:16
Speaker
And we assume that I think the mistake is when we see, Oh, they're not learning.
00:24:22
Speaker
We evaluate the program.
00:24:23
Speaker
We, we evaluate the, I sorry, I should say the curriculum.
00:24:26
Speaker
We evaluate the curriculum.
00:24:28
Speaker
We evaluate the,
00:24:29
Speaker
You know, the number of meetings I had about objectives and are we structuring our meeting?
00:24:34
Speaker
Are we structuring our daily classes around objectives in the same year that we were having fights in our hallway every day?
00:24:42
Speaker
You know, like where kids felt unsafe because kids, there were so many kids with emotional trauma that were acting out on each other, you know?
00:24:50
Speaker
Did we address the fights in the hall?
00:24:52
Speaker
No.
00:24:52
Speaker
Did we stop and pause and recognize that children are being injured in school?
00:24:56
Speaker
No.
00:24:57
Speaker
We just talked about, are you teaching objectives?
00:24:59
Speaker
Do kids know what page they need to be on in their textbook?
00:25:03
Speaker
That was all the professional development support we got.
00:25:07
Speaker
So this narrowing of what schools are for has really made a hyper focus on one aspect when really it is to be
00:25:20
Speaker
We need to think about more things than we often are in a lot of school or program evaluations, I think.
00:25:27
Speaker
More focused at the same time.
00:25:29
Speaker
It's interesting because it is narrowing.
00:25:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:32
Speaker
And yet it's also feels very unfocused on what's important.
00:25:35
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:25:37
Speaker
So like to your point about safety is not even talked about.
00:25:42
Speaker
And then when safety is talked about, normally very punitive measures, not things that get more to the root of things.
00:25:49
Speaker
And then again, you get to the issue of them, what are the role of schools and are schools supposed to take on that burden?
00:25:54
Speaker
And are schools then taking on the burden of trying to meet basic needs for kids in a very ineffective way, even no matter how well people try, right?
Importance of Relationships in Education
00:26:05
Speaker
which then gives an excuse to the wider society to not properly invest in healthcare and housing and food security for the community because they can say, well, it's because that school just isn't a good school, not because it deflects from those more fundamental issues, right?
00:26:24
Speaker
So it's really insidious to me in that way.
00:26:27
Speaker
And I think a lot of, like, sorry, no, I cut you off.
00:26:31
Speaker
No, go ahead.
00:26:32
Speaker
No, no, no.
00:26:33
Speaker
I was just saying, I think a lot of, I think the way that teachers are made to feel is that when we evaluate schools or how they're teaching, we don't evaluate the school, right?
00:26:43
Speaker
As like an entity or like a system, we evaluate teachers and what they're doing in the classroom.
00:26:49
Speaker
Right.
00:26:49
Speaker
And, and teachers aren't, obviously I know I've never worked in a district level.
00:26:54
Speaker
There's probably a lot of evaluation things that happen that I don't see at the district level or at an administrative level.
00:27:01
Speaker
But, um,
00:27:03
Speaker
the tools that we most often talk about is like how students perform on certain tests, right?
00:27:11
Speaker
And like things that are student outcomes are things we use as tools to evaluate a school system.
00:27:17
Speaker
And the closest thing to a student in a school system is the teacher, right?
00:27:20
Speaker
They're the... And so it's easy for a lot of people in power to say,
00:27:26
Speaker
Oh, teachers aren't doing their job.
00:27:28
Speaker
Oh, we need to change the curriculum.
00:27:29
Speaker
If the curriculum was changed, then kids, if we found the perfect way to teach math, then all kids would learn math without thinking about is a child coming into school.
00:27:39
Speaker
And that means like walking in the door, ready to learn, walking through the halls, feeling safe and ready to learn, and then like able to sit and function in their classroom environment, ready to learn.
00:27:50
Speaker
And they might have those conversations in other places.
00:27:53
Speaker
As a teacher, I've not been part of those in a very serious way.
00:27:57
Speaker
And it often just comes down to, are you having your one-on-one meetings to assess student learning?
00:28:02
Speaker
Yes, are you conferring?
00:28:03
Speaker
Right.
00:28:04
Speaker
Are you being, we talked about faithful to the curriculum and we don't talk about, and I think a lot of people, and even in conversations when I've had, I see other teachers saying, oh, it's because this child's hungry.
00:28:16
Speaker
They're coming in, they're not ready.
00:28:17
Speaker
And I've thought,
00:28:18
Speaker
I've been guilty of this thinking, oh, well, you're outsourcing the issue.
00:28:22
Speaker
We need to solve that issue in school.
00:28:24
Speaker
We need to give them breakfast then.
00:28:26
Speaker
And then if we give them breakfast, they can learn.
00:28:28
Speaker
Right.
00:28:28
Speaker
And it's like, no, there's so much trauma that comes along.
00:28:32
Speaker
And I don't want to overuse trauma because I think some people throw it around.
00:28:35
Speaker
I don't mean to throw it around, but like, there's so much more that goes into like a child not coming in with adequate nutrition.
00:28:43
Speaker
Then you can't just feed that,
00:28:46
Speaker
that hole in their stomach and like expect them to, it's not fuel.
00:28:49
Speaker
You know, it's like a child is not a robot.
00:28:52
Speaker
It's not a machine where if you, if it has all the food it needs, if it has all the sleep it needs, it's going to be ready to learn.
00:28:56
Speaker
It's like, oh, they also have feelings and emotions and thoughts and like interests and passions and fears, you know?
00:29:03
Speaker
And it's like, we don't adequately look at students and then a student body as a collection of a lot of complex things.
00:29:11
Speaker
We want to isolate them.
00:29:13
Speaker
Um,
00:29:14
Speaker
increasingly and I should say historically to measuring how well they do on certain academic tasks right when yeah yeah yeah I'm thinking about a lot of things do you want to slow me down and tell me what you're thinking well I was looking up I wasn't looking at you for a second but I was listening trying to find something I couldn't find it but I guess I'm kind of moving in a little bit now into the reflection and like a next step thinking about calling our what's the protocol called
00:29:44
Speaker
The Thinking Lens Protocol.
00:29:46
Speaker
We can give it a catchier name.
00:29:47
Speaker
Clearly, it's not catchy enough.
00:29:48
Speaker
We're getting it.
00:29:50
Speaker
It is an acronym.
00:29:52
Speaker
What is it?
00:29:53
Speaker
Thinking Lens.
00:29:54
Speaker
Thinking TLP.
00:29:55
Speaker
TLP.
00:29:59
Speaker
Tulip.
00:30:02
Speaker
But I think about what are the intentions and or values that I would want to drive changes in assessment and how we assess things.
00:30:14
Speaker
And one thing that's in this book, From Teaching to Thinking, it's some paraphrasing, but it's like
00:30:22
Speaker
It tackles this question for a second about why do black and brown kids not get like co-created learning spaces that are reserved for like mostly white kids and affluent children.
00:30:33
Speaker
And they talk about like the value that's clearly put in those high affluent schools, financially affluent schools is attention on children and relationships.
00:30:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:48
Speaker
And like a lot.
00:30:50
Speaker
And it's not that teachers on an individual level don't put a lot of effort into relationships in public schools, especially like economically oppressed districts and populations.
00:31:03
Speaker
But structurally, they're not encouraged to.
00:31:05
Speaker
They're always pushing up against mandates and things that force them to burn out.
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:11
Speaker
And so I would want this idea of how can we structure assessment evaluation so that it really encourages and allows for communities, Black and brown communities, to get that same attention and care to who they are as people.
00:31:28
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:31:31
Speaker
and to really be in relationship with others and be able to slow down.
00:31:39
Speaker
As long as schools are super pressured to do well in tests, and if my intention is to more hold the relationships and the attention and slowing down,
00:31:50
Speaker
then the speeding up and the urgency is actually a sign of a low quality system and program.
00:31:57
Speaker
It's like, why the heck is this how it is?
00:32:00
Speaker
Like, that's not conducive.
00:32:03
Speaker
And I've learned through my work with Lucien and Cedar, Cedar Lansman and Lucien, what's Lucien's last name?
00:32:10
Speaker
I'm sorry, Lucien, if you're listening, I love you.
00:32:12
Speaker
From Relational Uprising, just like the strong, the relationships can hold so much complexity, including cognitive complexity.
00:32:19
Speaker
And so you can learn more.
00:32:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:24
Speaker
And so I think I would want to nudge next steps for policy in terms of thinking of quality of.
00:32:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:32
Speaker
how are the structures in a school and how are the structures outside of school that affect the school developed in such a way that they do allow people to get the basic needs met and then also get the attention and care that they need to, to thrive.
Relational Teaching and Networking
00:32:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:56
Speaker
I, wow.
00:32:57
Speaker
I,
00:32:59
Speaker
What's that organization?
00:32:59
Speaker
That sounds really interesting.
00:33:00
Speaker
I haven't thought about relational teaching in that way.
00:33:02
Speaker
Can you just repeat the name of the organization?
00:33:04
Speaker
Relational Uprising.
00:33:06
Speaker
Relational Uprising Network.
00:33:09
Speaker
Ryan, my partner, I'm telling you, but you know who Ryan is.
00:33:13
Speaker
For those who don't know, my partner, we just celebrated 13 years this week.
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah, look at you.
00:33:20
Speaker
It's a teenage relationship.
00:33:21
Speaker
It's a teenage relationship.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:26
Speaker
he had a friend who invited him because you do it in a group and you normally do it from an organization but we didn't have an organization so she reached out to Ryan she reached out to some other friends and Ryan was like I think you'll like this it was during a pandemic it was through Zoom and I've just ever since then I'm still working with Cedar and Lucy and I'm still collaborating with them and their work is very powerful
00:33:48
Speaker
but yeah one big takeaway from their work is just how that focus on relationships allows for a lot of complexity including complexity of difference complexity like in emotions complexity with like you know
00:34:01
Speaker
It's like people, that's a big buzzword like in education in general.
00:34:05
Speaker
People are always like, well, if you have strong relationships, you have a better class.
00:34:09
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:11
Speaker
And people don't think about what that means.
00:34:13
Speaker
Means.
00:34:13
Speaker
Even like there's two perspectives on relationships and it's like.
00:34:16
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:17
Speaker
I'm going to make a big leap.
00:34:19
Speaker
but there's a bridge I will build.
00:34:22
Speaker
Okay.
00:34:22
Speaker
I can't wait.
00:34:23
Speaker
Just like a good song.
00:34:25
Speaker
Okay.
00:34:27
Speaker
So the, okay.
00:34:29
Speaker
Take me higher.
00:34:30
Speaker
Okay.
00:34:31
Speaker
The crescendo.
00:34:32
Speaker
Okay.
00:34:34
Speaker
The thing about relationships, right?
00:34:37
Speaker
Like that really is,
00:34:40
Speaker
right?
00:34:40
Speaker
The essence of so much work, right?
00:34:43
Speaker
Is your relationships with your coworkers, your relationships with people that enable you to get the job.
00:34:50
Speaker
So many people only get jobs because of their connections.
00:34:53
Speaker
It's not only, it's like they have the skills, they have the capabilities to do a job, but what enables them to get the interview to get like, you know, the knowledge about a job opening is their relationships with people.
00:35:06
Speaker
Like what,
00:35:07
Speaker
people call networking.
00:35:08
Speaker
And I think a lot of us like get...
00:35:11
Speaker
Iced out by the idea of networking because it's a commodified perspective on relationship.
00:35:17
Speaker
Right.
00:35:18
Speaker
When like really what it comes down to is like, are you getting good vibes off of someone?
00:35:22
Speaker
If you get good vibes off of them, which can be like coded for a lot of different things, but like, let's like, that's how like relationships start is like, you get a good feeling from someone and because they get a good feeling from you.
00:35:33
Speaker
They're like, Hey, I would love if you like came and worked at my job.
00:35:36
Speaker
Right.
00:35:37
Speaker
Why don't you like,
00:35:38
Speaker
you know, apply for this opening or because, hey, like I knew your cousin and they did something really important for me.
00:35:46
Speaker
I owe, I feel like I owe them something.
00:35:48
Speaker
So I'm going to open the door to this person I don't know and trust that this friend of mine who's your cousin will, is like vouching for your identity, right?
00:35:56
Speaker
So much.
00:35:56
Speaker
And then this reminds me of like, I had friends in business school at the same time I was in my PhD program who the whole time they were in business school, their time was spent on networking trips.
00:36:05
Speaker
They were going to like,
00:36:07
Speaker
you know, faraway places on these, like they had like often like multiple trips a semester where, and I was like, why are they going to like beach week or why are they going to like ski week?
00:36:17
Speaker
And it was always like to build connections because half of what business school is, is like, yes, you learn a lot, but you're also networking.
00:36:23
Speaker
You're meeting people that are going to take you, introduce you to some new phase of your career.
00:36:28
Speaker
And like, we hide that and mask it with like,
00:36:31
Speaker
a lot of gatekeeping with tuition and with like access to schools, but like really what things come down to why people, it's not the only reason, but the one way that power consolidates itself is through relationships, which is kind of the like weird seedy underbelly and the dark, you know, or I should say like the like power from relationship isn't bad.
00:36:52
Speaker
And it isn't.
00:36:53
Speaker
And it isn't.
00:36:54
Speaker
It's just demystifying.
00:36:55
Speaker
We need to demystify that.
00:36:57
Speaker
How,
00:36:58
Speaker
power can build right and it's not it isn't just through what we can offer each other and what we can do because if it was a meritocracy if we could just build our skills and become good enough to like be recognized for our value then a lot more people be recognized for their value because they're all there are a lot of very hard-working people and there are also a lot of very hard-working people who are vulnerable and have needs and they have friends that look out for them say that's most of them
00:37:23
Speaker
I think everyone, most of the hardworking people, most hardworking people are everybody.
00:37:28
Speaker
And like, everybody has some like gooey part of them that like, when you hit it, like opens them up to like needing, needing support, needing time, needing right.
00:37:38
Speaker
Faith meeting, or even like circumstances happen in their life and they need help.
00:37:42
Speaker
relationships to carry them through
Improving Program Assessments
00:37:44
Speaker
it, right?
00:37:44
Speaker
They need the support of others.
00:37:46
Speaker
And we don't talk about that because so much, again, of the way this system functions is that if you invest enough in yourself and you learn enough and you fill your brain up high enough with all this knowledge, you will be a valuable person.
00:37:59
Speaker
commodity in and of yourself by yourself, just how smart and capable you are, right.
00:38:05
Speaker
For whatever, you know, thing you're seeking out in the future.
00:38:10
Speaker
Right.
00:38:11
Speaker
And really what we've seen is that people have gotten jobs or have gotten opportunities to do things that
00:38:18
Speaker
Not because of like anything they really accomplished, but just because of who they know and like, you know, who they know and who they've built trust with and who they've like, you know, people feel like even if you haven't done anything, it's like, I believe in you.
00:38:31
Speaker
And like, I have like a good relationship with you.
00:38:33
Speaker
And so I'm going to like take a look and like see what you can do by offering you this opportunity.
00:38:38
Speaker
Anyway, I don't know.
00:38:39
Speaker
The bridge I'm going to try and make like thinking about what we're talking about is that
00:38:45
Speaker
we sell a lot of kids a false bill of goods that like, if they just like, and like, I don't know.
00:38:51
Speaker
It's like, we like, if we had faith in, it's just like funny that like kids go to business school, like they go to the best business school in the country to learn how to network, how to build relationships.
00:39:01
Speaker
Right.
00:39:02
Speaker
And it's like, do we teach things like that?
00:39:04
Speaker
Do we teach like, you know, do we enable people?
00:39:07
Speaker
Do we model it?
00:39:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:09
Speaker
Like capacity and like teach people that,
00:39:12
Speaker
society only functions because of interdependence because of like relationship.
00:39:17
Speaker
Society only functions because of interdependence.
00:39:20
Speaker
Right.
00:39:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:21
Speaker
There's a shift.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:24
Speaker
Right.
00:39:24
Speaker
Right.
00:39:25
Speaker
We, we definitely push an individualistic idea.
00:39:28
Speaker
Like you need to make yourself as smart as possible to compete against everyone.
00:39:31
Speaker
That's like, Oh no, honey.
00:39:32
Speaker
No, like we only like survive because of other people.
00:39:35
Speaker
Right.
00:39:36
Speaker
We don't push other people out of our way.
00:39:38
Speaker
And it's a sickness of the way that we're living to, we're taught to compete against each other.
00:39:44
Speaker
Right.
00:39:45
Speaker
And like be better than everyone and get schooling to be better than everyone.
00:39:48
Speaker
And we instill that in people with like,
00:39:51
Speaker
unhealthy perspectives on competition that leave other people in the dust and only reward the top three, you know, whatever, and whatever we're talking about anyway.
00:39:59
Speaker
So that just like that, I think like thinking about relationships in that way is power.
00:40:05
Speaker
I had internalized a lot of really negative, not negative, but like ideas that relationship building is soft, right?
00:40:12
Speaker
It's not, it's not powerful, important work in the same way that other academic skills are.
00:40:20
Speaker
That's something I want to sit in and think about myself, like going forward.
00:40:23
Speaker
That's something I want to change and reflect on and think about how can I actually like enable people to see that all the work they do in like relationships isn't just like, it is,
00:40:36
Speaker
invaluable and in fact necessary to the webbing of society right and to being human and being human yeah no I feel that yeah I guess if I were to just to to land for me somewhere in terms of a next step I'm going to go on two levels
00:40:56
Speaker
One of my roles at Mi Casita is to construct the evaluation structure, right?
00:41:03
Speaker
And I want to revisit what we're doing, which is we ask questions and we reflect on them and we talk about it.
00:41:09
Speaker
And it's a dialogue.
00:41:12
Speaker
And yes, there is my experience and my professional judgment that really informs the quality of the conversation, right?
00:41:18
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:41:20
Speaker
And I want to lean back into that a little more at Mikasita as the next step of, okay, I'm going to have a conversation about are we showing a strong image of children?
00:41:28
Speaker
Do you feel like you're showing a strong image of children?
00:41:30
Speaker
I think doing the stinking protocol in and of itself and showing a change after the protocol is in and of itself something that is an indicator if you want to call it that.
00:41:42
Speaker
But throughout it all, it's supposed to be within a web of trust.
00:41:49
Speaker
It's not the tool in and of itself that does it.
00:41:54
Speaker
It's using the thinking tool in the context of a team that trusts each other and that believes in what they're doing.
Reimagining Standardized Assessments
00:42:01
Speaker
It's the same tool in another team that has really deep trust relationship issues.
00:42:05
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:42:06
Speaker
is it's not going to work right so for me like that's my next step on the micasita level and then on the wider level like if someone were to work at more schools is our conversations like this happening period and are they happening a meaningful amount of times throughout the year where people feel like it's in for like people feel like the last conversation wasn't too long ago right so me can see that we have these conversations every week
00:42:30
Speaker
Right.
00:42:30
Speaker
They're not necessarily framed as formal evaluations, but can very easily point and document that, right?
00:42:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:37
Speaker
And so I think this is maybe in an earlier episode, but it's just really hard for me to imagine a program that's really poor quality on many other indicators if they're consistently reflecting and talking and being real with each other and personally accountable to each other and making changes in response to feedback and in response to thinking.
00:42:56
Speaker
Right.
00:42:56
Speaker
be really worried about a school, which is a lot of schools because that's just how, like, especially with the curriculum as it is, they don't, they do the same thing every year.
00:43:04
Speaker
They don't reflect on changing, you're not looking at your kids in front of you, right?
00:43:08
Speaker
So those are my, those would be my next steps on the more policy or like if I were to make a bigger assessment, right?
00:43:16
Speaker
Which I know I'd run into issues with validity and stuff and that's something I want to sit down and the whole concept and statistics, right?
00:43:24
Speaker
But I don't know.
00:43:26
Speaker
I'm pretty confident that's the direction I'd want to go.
00:43:29
Speaker
Wow.
00:43:32
Speaker
Was that the whole thing?
00:43:33
Speaker
Was that the whole cycle?
00:43:33
Speaker
That's the whole thing.
00:43:35
Speaker
Wow.
00:43:37
Speaker
That is really... I love that as a tool.
00:43:39
Speaker
And I think it's like bringing it back to thinking about trust.
00:43:43
Speaker
It's like, why don't we trust people to have these deep conversations?
00:43:50
Speaker
You know, to have like...
00:43:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:56
Speaker
Like to reason why they're making the decisions they are and to think and then evaluate, because I also know that when, whenever I'm evaluated or whenever like my performance is gauged just through a rubric and then I'm told after by like a quote unquote objective observer about how I did, it's like, I don't feel like I get to be
00:44:18
Speaker
part of that conversation because even though I am a reflective critical person and could offer some critique of what I do, but I think like I look to other people for thinking about relational work, you know,
00:44:34
Speaker
I would hope we can move to a place where program evaluation doesn't just like a read of someone like telling you, this is what you did wrong.
00:44:39
Speaker
You did wrong.
00:44:40
Speaker
This is what you did wrong.
00:44:42
Speaker
And this is what you need to do instead.
00:44:44
Speaker
I would hope that we can just, you know, even harkening back to some of the stuff we talked about, about dialogic teaching, you know, just like, I would hope we can get to a more dialogic place for a lot of this and just trust that,
00:44:57
Speaker
if there's a lot of people in the room having a dialogue, you know, that are seriously engaged and using like evidence from like their teaching in terms of like, exactly.
00:45:05
Speaker
Based in reality, based in reality and their reference, not just ideas, their reality, right.
00:45:12
Speaker
Like talk about illustrations.
00:45:13
Speaker
Well, I saw a kid do X, Y, and Z. And so it made me think this.
00:45:15
Speaker
And then it, you know,
00:45:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and I think the role of standardized assessments will be at a very high level, and it would be at a very sampled level.
00:45:26
Speaker
So let's look at a statistically meaningful amount of schools, thousands of them.
00:45:31
Speaker
Right.
00:45:33
Speaker
And then if those schools are implementing what we're talking about, I would be, I would, I would imagine there's a lot of good, that's they, things would go well on a standardized longitudinal overtime assessment.
00:45:45
Speaker
And we work on like getting like measure of like how students are learning based on like family learning.
00:45:50
Speaker
things like family surveys and like not like how do families feel about the education their children are getting?
00:45:56
Speaker
Yes.
00:45:56
Speaker
How does community, how after like, it needs to be more longitudinal.
00:46:00
Speaker
It needs to be more deeply relational itself.
00:46:03
Speaker
Like how we collect that data.
00:46:04
Speaker
It can't just be on the test because wow, there's so much of like who makes the test with the questions they're asking.
00:46:12
Speaker
It's like, if,
00:46:14
Speaker
People don't have a say as to the stuff that we're measuring, you know, because of what a student needs to know.
00:46:20
Speaker
People in communities don't have says on like what goes on a test that they're testing.
00:46:24
Speaker
We just trust a test to make it.
00:46:26
Speaker
But we, very few people understand that there aren't very many people making that test.
00:46:29
Speaker
It's not like a huge,
00:46:31
Speaker
right number of people were basing that off of it's a few people who developed a test and then tested it on a bunch of yeah but Pearson ate it Pearson ate it I can tell you that um yeah so I I feel like I've landed in a pretty good place it's obviously really more conversations but
00:46:52
Speaker
If you're listening and you have more thoughts on this or you know of people doing this work in academia and or in communities, let us know.
00:47:01
Speaker
I mean, we want to see more examples because in New York City, I know lots of cool stuff is happening,
Conclusion: Relationship-Building in Education
00:47:07
Speaker
but...
00:47:07
Speaker
we don't talk to each other as much uh and often it's cross sectors not just in schools right or places that are school education adjacent so as always you can email us at pedagogy of the distressed at gmail.com it's in the description uh and yeah we'll see what's next what are you thinking emily what's in your brain
00:47:32
Speaker
I'm just like settling into that realization about relationships and I'm like wanting to think about maybe something off of that.
00:47:38
Speaker
I'm going to sit with that and think about where it leads me.
00:47:42
Speaker
And so I'm just fighting.
00:47:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:45
Speaker
About.
00:47:45
Speaker
We could.
00:47:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:47
Speaker
What were you going to say?
00:47:48
Speaker
You had an idea.
00:47:49
Speaker
We, I mean, we could do the thinking protocol with that.
00:47:51
Speaker
That can be the thing we respond to again.
00:47:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:55
Speaker
So anyway, more thinking to come.
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:00
Speaker
More thinking to come.
00:48:01
Speaker
And I'll have to loop back then on my next steps.
00:48:04
Speaker
That's kind of how it's supposed to work.
00:48:06
Speaker
Cycles, loops, maybe not in the next episode, but some point in the future.
00:48:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:11
Speaker
Okay.
00:48:12
Speaker
Well, with that, Emily, thank you.
00:48:14
Speaker
Have a wonderful night.
00:48:15
Speaker
You're doing the best.
00:48:16
Speaker
Those babies are lucky to have you in their care circle.
00:48:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:21
Speaker
Thank you.
00:48:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:22
Speaker
Okay.
00:48:23
Speaker
All right.
00:48:24
Speaker
Love you.
00:48:25
Speaker
Bye.
00:48:25
Speaker
Bye.