Transcript
Rafael Perez-Segura: Hello, welcome to Talk in Pedagogy with Pat and Rafa, where we talk about Reggio-inspired practice and other related pedagogies, sometimes with us, sometimes with a guest, sometimes with you. We are colleagues and friends who have been co-constructing our understanding of the Reggio Emilia approach for a while, supporting ourselves and others, and deepening our thinking thinking and practice.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Today, it will be us, Pat and Rafa, and the topic is demystifying the Reggio Emilia approach and what is our relationship to it. So with that, Pat, yay Since it's our first episode, ah would you mind talking a little bit about you know how we can have come to this work together and anything else you think would be interesting for our listeners to know for our very first podcast episode?
PAT WATKINS : Absolutely. um Rafa, it has been such a journey with you over the past, I'm going to say four plus years in having conversations about Reggio, in teaching a class around Reggio, Amelia, that we're still teaching, um and also coaching with you and doing professional development with you in a number of different contexts.
PAT WATKINS : And I think the reason that we kind of come together and mesh so well is that we both are creative people and we believe that teaching is an art and Reggio Emilia really holds all of those things that I think both you and I hold so dear about teaching and pedagogy all in one place and in one approach.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
PAT WATKINS : So once we started, there was seemingly no stopping. And the reason that we wanted a more defined way of continuing conversations is because when we finish our class, we always feel like, gosh, there was so many more topics, so many more things to say, and never enough time. So I'm excited that we'll be talking about Reggio Emilia here together. I'm also excited that we're going to be bringing in other experts and inviting others to speak with us about
PAT WATKINS : not only Reggio Emilia, but other pedagogies as well.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, I'm really excited too. I really appreciate how you called me a creative person. who never and didn't always see myself like that. And over time, working with you i've and working in this way, i've I've seen myself more and more as a creative person.
Rafael Perez-Segura: It broadened my sense of what it means to be a creative, okay connecting connecting ideas and thoughts that don't seem related at at first together, i think as a form of creativity, which is something I i enjoy.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So I think it's really exciting.
PAT WATKINS : Absolutely.
Rafael Perez-Segura: because you You have a background in the theater arts now as well.
PAT WATKINS : Yeah, that's how I came to teaching was from having quite a long career. Actually, in my 40s is when i ah late 40s, I went back to school to get my master's for early childhood because I had always been drawn drawn to it um because it is so creative.
PAT WATKINS : So when I was daylighting, I'm not going to say moonlighting because in the arts, we are always working at night, usually.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Hmm.
PAT WATKINS : But I would find myself gravitating towards spaces with children and and working in different contexts with children, whether it was performing or creating content. I've created some different classes that were very creative, tutus and tea, things like that. I was just always writing books, you know, ah for that class. And so just kept finding myself in that early childhood space and always feeling so happy um content and so much joy because there's such a time of wonder in the beginning.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Hmm.
PAT WATKINS : And I love stepping into the space of when the imagination is just starting to wake up and really empowering young children, which I think the Reggio Emilia approach does such a beautiful and eloquent job of doing the framework that teachers work in, of inspiring young children to use their imaginations and to believe in the power
Rafael Perez-Segura: e
PAT WATKINS : of imagination. That's how I found my way to it.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, and I found my way to it starting first. I started teaching through Teach for America and the pedagogy or philosophy of learning, I guess is another way to say pedagogy.
Rafael Perez-Segura: It was very focused on, I would say there's one right answer. there it is it was focused more on control, right? And at first I was like, yeah, this is makes sense. This is really clear.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And then over time, I started reading just more and more different approaches and perspectives, ah including Paulo Freire's critical pedagogy, like pa Pedagogy of the Oppressed and Bell Hooks and ah Teaching to Transgress. And it really had me question about what what did it mean to educate?
Rafael Perez-Segura: And so over time, and started figuring out more what I didn't like or didn't want or didn't believe in, if you will. And it wasn't until I got my master's at Stanford in education that I started really defining what I really wanted. And by then I still really didn't know a lot about the Reggio Emilia approach, but I did observe being nursery school, which is, i don't know if they would identify as Reggio inspired, but they're very into loose parts play.
Rafael Perez-Segura: They're very arts based. I would call it a very strongly Reggio inspired program, just, just on the surface at least. And then going to work in the Bronx in a independent charter school called Hecate Community Charter School that was really trying to do Reggio inspired practice within the context of an independent charter, which is very interesting.
Rafael Perez-Segura: and Unfortunately, school was closed by our authorizer, which was very upsetting for the community and is what actually then led to me getting a job as now the director of a preschool, Mikasita Preschool in in Brooklyn.
PAT WATKINS : That's
Rafael Perez-Segura: ah where I've read this, which is where we met in 2020 in the midst of the pandemic and where I really started to formalize a lot of the experience and integrate a lot of the experiences and what I believed with you and with others and realize that the Reggio Emilia approach really was a strong framework within which to further grow as an educator.
PAT WATKINS : right.
PAT WATKINS : right.
PAT WATKINS : Yeah.
Rafael Perez-Segura: I'm really excited. i mean, we've been talking now about the Reggio Emilia approach for a couple of minutes. Maybe we talk a little bit about what it what it is, how each of us would define it.
PAT WATKINS : right
Rafael Perez-Segura: ex start with a quote from Loris Malaguzzi, considered by many to be and the founder, the grandfather, i guess we would say, of the approach. And in the article, The Image of the Child Where Teaching Begins, he says this about the community.
Rafael Perez-Segura: All of this is a great forest. Inside the forest is the child. The forest is beautiful, fascinating, green, and full of hopes. There are no paths.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Although it isn't easy, we have to make our own paths as teachers and children and families in the forest. Sometimes we find ourselves together within the forest. Sometimes we may get lost from each other.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Sometimes we'll greet each other from far away across the forest, but it's living together in this forest that is important. And this living together is not easy. It's not easy.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
PAT WATKINS : It is an easy, and on a another note, I think when reading this quote, what it was making me think of is, in part, what it is that we have found ah a forest that has a lot of educators walking around right now needing a space to reflect and grow together.
PAT WATKINS : um That was really clear during the pandemic, and I know we want to focus on what how we define Reggio, but I also want to just spend a moment um sharing that, you know, we all as educators are part of a forest and right now some of us could feel like deforesting is going on.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Hmm.
PAT WATKINS : um The pandemic was a time that really caused us to take a lot of great hits to our educational system. It exposed a lot, i made us stop and think about technology, about parent engagement, which is a huge part of the Reggio Emilia approach.
PAT WATKINS : um But it also left educators feeling very isolated.
Rafael Perez-Segura: the
PAT WATKINS : And I think that what you and I have both been feeling, which is another thing that truly has sparked this, us wanting to do this, is that educators are so in need of just having a safe place to come and reflect and and talk and think together about trials and tribulations that we're, you know, facing right now as educators.
PAT WATKINS : So, That is a forest that I think I'm excited to be tending with all of you as we plant new ideas and new ways to think about pedagogy and early childhood education.
PAT WATKINS : And I don't think when speaking about Reggio that there's one pure way of doing Reggio. And I think, Rafa, that may be what you were getting at when you said, let's talk a little bit about demystifying the Reggio Emilia approach.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
Rafael Perez-Segura: the
PAT WATKINS : So I'll share a little bit and then I i want to hear what you s think. But I think from having been to Reggio Emilia in Italy, um i was privileged enough to go from the school that I was working at, they sent me.
PAT WATKINS : And I would say um i was so, so inspired. and And I realized too, that so much of what they were doing was grounded and rooted in their Italian culture, their history.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
PAT WATKINS : And that, you know, as Rafa and I always say, we're not ever when we're working with teachers expecting that we're trying to duplicate what they do in Italy. That's why in America we say inspired, regio influenced.
PAT WATKINS : Now some are saying a cycle of inquiry, um claiming it more as a it's regio, but it's a different way of framing it. So I would say that um the reason I'm saying any of these things is that ah there's not one way to approach regio, Amelia, but there are certain tenets that frame the work.
PAT WATKINS : And I'm going to toss the ball to you now, Rafa, just to get you to share a little bit about some of those tenets and the ones that you and I, I think, always find ourselves really holding.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, i I think if someone asked me what is the Reggio Emilia approach, I would begin my answer with, well, it starts with having a strong image of children and and adults and in humans.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And thinking about if children were capable of all ah doing beautiful things, if adults are capable of doing beautiful things, how would you design a classroom? How would you design a school? How would you design a system?
Rafael Perez-Segura: ah Grounded in, and in this case, in the history Reggio Emilia, right? So very briefly in the wake of World War two ah people in the the village of Villachella, I think, wanted to build a school.
Rafael Perez-Segura: and wanted a better future, more democratic future that really believed in the potential of young children. And up until then, there hadn't really been a lot of serious thought given to the education of very young children.
Rafael Perez-Segura: ah So and then thinking of having a strong image again of children and of adults, they started thinking of with Loris Malaguzzi and others, about theories that complemented that value or that tenet of a strong image of children, right?
Rafael Perez-Segura: So they really pulled on the ideas of Leo Vygotsky and they really pulled ideas of Piaget and John Dewey.
PAT WATKINS : Thank you.
Rafael Perez-Segura: and And so when I think about what it means, the regimen approach means for me or for others nowadays, it's knowing about the history in that way learning from the theorists right that they were pulling from, and also starting to think about who inspires you.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So for example, I would say for myself, I'm really into Alison Gopnik's work. I would include Bell Hook's work there. The ultimate idea of a Reggio Emilia, the Reggio Emilia approach is to develop your own pedagogy or philosophy of learning, um building on the work, right?
Rafael Perez-Segura: And the centering the humanity of everybody. So that might sound a little bit still up in the clouds, but I think it's really important to start there because when we start thinking about practice, which is the implications of these values and theories ah and the reflection that's required to make that a reality, ah if we lose sight of of the why and where the regimen the approach comes from it's very easy then to lose sight of alignment of practice with our values and so before go much too much more into it and with some examples uh pat what what do you think about that or what would you elaborate on add
PAT WATKINS : You know, I get caught up because I think this is a time ah where we're experiencing a lot of um difficulty in our school systems of providing true equity.
PAT WATKINS : And so you caught me. ah i started thinking about this approach and equity, and i I was catapulted back to your initial story of how your school that you were working in stopped, it was a public school, and they took that opportunity of the Reggio Emilia approach away.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
PAT WATKINS : and And I think that it is a challenging pedagogical approach because it requires certain um ah certain framework from the leadership to be in place in order for it to flourish and grow and take hold.
PAT WATKINS : And um such as having meeting time, such as adults being respected for their own passions and interests and continued education.
PAT WATKINS : um You know, you said it was the first time that um when Reggio began, it was kind of the first time that there was even an approach to early childhood. Children were just being cared for.
PAT WATKINS : They were being nurtured, but they were not being taught or looked at as as fellow students and collaborators.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Thank you.
PAT WATKINS : And I think, Rafa, that's what what I always love about this is approach. And this is why when you start with the strong image of the child, it is imperative that anybody working in this approach sees young children as very capable as coming in with their own OWNED o w n e d resources, their own thinking, their own beginning cultural experiences.
PAT WATKINS : And all of that feeds the approach to this approach, like that's those concentric, Rothenbrenner, those circles are all connected um that the the child is living in, you know, their community, their school, their
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
PAT WATKINS : um just the culture. All of it is you know, kind of working together. And so you can't, again, going back to strong image of the child, you can't really do this work if you don't see children as being able to be equal collaborators.
PAT WATKINS : I don't know if that answers your question, but.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, I mean, as we're talking, I'm thinking of also ways we can start talking about the implications or some like practical things for a moment, right?
PAT WATKINS : Mm hmm.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So one of the implications of us having a strong image of children is that you're more likely then to schedule your day to allow extensive time for young children to play, because there's a lot of research around the value of play and many domains, mean and and really really being aware of when we're interrupting play
PAT WATKINS : Mm-hmm.
Rafael Perez-Segura: ah perhaps to try to extend something and when we're observing and then reflecting. So in this approach, we're always thinking like that. like Like you said this, Pat, before, like it's a thinking person's pedagogy.
Rafael Perez-Segura: i it's ah it's It's a way of approaching childhood in practice that acknowledges that there's not one right way, but there are definitely more intentional ways to do things.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Right. So ah at Mi Casita Preschool, where I direct, we're always thinking about, OK, what is the setup the um of the environment so that children can be autonomous?
Rafael Perez-Segura: ah How are the paints organized? How are the brushes organized? How are the loose parts organized? um Where are the recycled materials? and We don't tend to use a lot of ah commercial toys because we believe children are very capable of using their imaginations to make things on their own with recycled materials and loose parts, for example.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So that is one of the reasons that we we really limit the use of commercial toys. which is different than saying that that you can never use commercial toys, right? that That's the whole thinking.
PAT WATKINS : Yeah.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Sometimes a child might be really into a concept and or really wants to learn how to make their own airplane. And you do have a toy that's actually an airplane that could serve as a model that they can then draw from to then create their own, right?
Rafael Perez-Segura: So again, getting at the point that The key is reflection. I think that's what differentiates this approach a lot from others.
PAT WATKINS : yeah
Rafael Perez-Segura: ah There's reflection as a wayfinder through that forest to maintain a sense of coherence because while we don't know always where we're going, we are always making a way.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And that way does have a certain level of structure and organization.
PAT WATKINS : Right. You know, when I think in our class, we always talk about, you started to kind of touch on it, going back to equity, is that all children have the right to wonder and to be respected and to dream and to um have the ability to be leaders in their own education.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
PAT WATKINS : So, you know, I think that is what I'm hopeful that We all can step into however much of the tenants you're able to actually bring in and support.
PAT WATKINS : Some of these tenants can find their way into anybody's pedagogy and can create more equity and all children deserve that. Right. And so, um,
PAT WATKINS : I think that's what i'm I'm hopeful about. And I know we talk a lot about it is a lot of times Reggio is in this country reserved for more privileged settings.
PAT WATKINS : um and And that's unfortunate. So how do we, in whatever place you're finding yourself, um we're going to continue to talk about some of these tenants and how you can carve out time, no matter what,
PAT WATKINS : um you're being asked to do, that there will be places for this to really hold up the joy, the wonder, and play. And also, this is not only just about a loose, like Rafa was saying, a loose kind of approach.
PAT WATKINS : It is very intentional and very organized and very planned. and And we'll be sharing in the future with you um different ways that we've seen this approach just blow our minds, different projects and studies that we've seen happen and how they came about. We'll be having experts come on and talk about that, which I'm excited to be sharing with you.
PAT WATKINS : um And so, ah yes, it is to demystify it does take a little time. And so just in this one conversation, I think we're we're kind of dancing around some of the things that come up as most important to us, but there's a lot more.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yeah, I think for today, the demystifying, one of the big takeaways I hope anyone takes from this is that it's not a cookie cutter approach.
PAT WATKINS : No.
Rafael Perez-Segura: It's a thoughtful approach that requires dialoguing, talking, meaning, what do you think? Maybe we'll try this. And to your point, Pat, and it's not it's not loose. It actually requires a lot of rigor and aligning practice with what you think. So It's not uncommon in a rego-inspired setting that teachers and parents and children are asking each other, well, why is this set up like this?
Rafael Perez-Segura: Why is it like that? like what could What could it be? you know What are we going for? um And it doesn't mean everything we know from perhaps more traditional approaches go out the window.
Rafael Perez-Segura: In fact, the opposite, that can be really helpful. For example, my background in teaching reading in kindergarten and first grade is really helpful when I'm working with children now, when I think about early literacy skills in a Reggio-inspired context.
Rafael Perez-Segura: But that's not what I'm emphasizing or leading with. I'm first seeing what is interesting to the children, what they're thinking, and then finding the points and the moments throughout the year, the thousands of moments throughout the year, where perhaps certain interventions, I'll call them, or approaches can be helpful.
PAT WATKINS : and
Rafael Perez-Segura: and supporting children extend their literacy and their play at this at the same time. So it's just to say that this is not an ah ah approach that says, but you can't do this. It's ah more so than not, it's about saying yes he going and going going with it.
PAT WATKINS : Yeah. And understanding ah early childhood development so that, like Rafa was just saying, it leads, you know, what you're looking for to make sure that children are getting all those domains of learning.
PAT WATKINS : um But it's just a different way of doing it.
Rafael Perez-Segura: they're insecure.
PAT WATKINS : So i think I think that's where the demystifying kind of comes in is like, But how are we assessing? And teachers today are driven, ah you know, to a so really think about assessments all the time.
PAT WATKINS : And so um there are ways to be mindful of assessments and to do assessments while still letting this be the way you teach. They're not separate.
Rafael Perez-Segura: no there're
PAT WATKINS : You just have to build a different bridge to the assessments. Right, Rafa? Yeah.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Exactly. And in Reggio, this will be a topic for a different episode, but documentation is assessment, communication, planning all at the same time, which can be really difficult to wrap one's head around until you experience it.
PAT WATKINS : Yep.
Rafael Perez-Segura: But it's quite elegant and beautiful and in that way.
PAT WATKINS : Yes.
PAT WATKINS : And beauty. I'm glad you brought up that word because beauty is at the heart of how this, um, I think progresses in, in a school.
PAT WATKINS : Beauty is where it starts and beauty in so many respects, but also aesthetic beauty, you know,
Rafael Perez-Segura: Yep.
PAT WATKINS : um that really plays prominently because we see the environment as the third teacher and environment should be very organized and should be very inviting and should be very um clearly read by the children so that they can have autonomy in the environment.
Rafael Perez-Segura: yeah
PAT WATKINS : um So all of those are really important other things that we'll be unpacking in future conversations.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So yeah, and and definitely going into the very practical of like how, what is the thinking routine that can help me get from point A to point B, right? And what are examples or practices that might be useful?
Rafael Perez-Segura: ah So we're really excited to talk about that. I still teach in the classroom while being a director of a school. And I'm currently teaching in a public school setting for the summer ah with Stanford and in a school district, a local school district, and doing this approach in a public school setting with the limitations of space and furniture at the moment. So I'm always thinking about, you know, how how do we make this approach work in many different contexts?
PAT WATKINS : Yes, very important. And I think at this point, what I'm thinking, Rafa, is it would be, it'd be nice to talk a little bit more about what people can expect when they do visit with us, some of the building blocks of what will be always a part of what we do.
PAT WATKINS : do you want to share that?
Rafael Perez-Segura: Sure. Well, we'll always be starting with a question of that that that focuses the whole episode and talking through it with between ourselves or or with guests, including you potentially listening, and then really focus on just practical examples or and or stories that really illustrate our answers to these questions around pedagogy and turning theory into practice and turning these are these different approaches to learning that are ultimately liberating, I think, into reality.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And then, Pat, I know that for the podcast, a big part of it is about just cultivating community. So can you speak a little more to that?
PAT WATKINS : Well, I i do ah think that that is a driving reason that we're doing it is really that was our call to action is um is to find ah and create a space for all people in early childhood who might be interested in having conversation.
PAT WATKINS : So we're going to be, as Rafa said, bringing on experts and we're going to be asking you and sorry for the beeping. I don't know if everybody can hear that.
Rafael Perez-Segura: It's my, they probably can't, sorry, tried to myself in Do Not Disturb, but it's still going through. ah
PAT WATKINS : That's OK, but we're going to be um continuing to build our own technical savvy as we continue to invite you into this space. But but also, it is a comfortable space. It is a space where you you will be asked to join. You will be asked to send in questions that can help drive some of the content that we'll be creating for you.
PAT WATKINS : um And it's just, gosh, just a fun, joyous place ah to continue to create more wonder about how we can all continue to improve our own pedagogy.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Mm-hmm.
PAT WATKINS : I'm really excited and I can't wait to meet some of you and we'll make opportunities for that to happen as well. We'll create opportunities for that.
Rafael Perez-Segura: So we invite you to stay in contact and in the show notes, you will see a link to a Google form and you will be able to submit questions, feedback, and and thoughts for future episodes as well, as well as sharing if you'd be interested in being on the podcast.
Rafael Perez-Segura: We're looking forward to hearing from all of you. So with that, Pat, I think that concludes our first episode.
PAT WATKINS : Well, I can only say I'm looking forward to more. And i can't, again, wait to see how many of you are going to take us up on the offer to really engage and become a part of this community.
PAT WATKINS : It's very exciting. And we are very dedicated to providing this space for you. So please take us up on it.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Excited to connect till next time.
PAT WATKINS : Connecting the dots in early childhood education. Thank you, Rafa.
Rafael Perez-Segura: but
PAT WATKINS : While Rafa works for Mikasita or with Mikasita, I'm also working with connecting the dots in early childhood education. And we'll be sharing more about both of the places that we're engaged in working and sharing what we're learning. So looking forward to more of that as well.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And then the form you will also see if you were interested in more learning more about connecting the dots, there will be a link there as well.
PAT WATKINS : Thanks, Rafa.
Rafael Perez-Segura: And you can inquire.
PAT WATKINS : Thanks.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Okay. Well, time to go.
PAT WATKINS : And with that, ding, ding, time to go.
Rafael Perez-Segura: Okay. Bye. time to go okay bye
PAT WATKINS : See you later.
