Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 58 - Neurodivergent Life with Guest, Alice
60 Plays1 year ago
Paul and Martin (co-mayors of ADHDville) are joined by Italian musician and teacher, Alice. We have a lovely chat and she shares her life with autism, how it has impacted her creative life and her professional life. Ciao!
See our beautiful faces on YouTube
Put quill to paper and send us an email at: ADHDville@gmail.com
ADHD/Focus music from Martin (AKA Thinking Fish)
Theme music was written by Freddie Philips and played by Martin West. All other music by Martin West.
Please remember: This is an entertainment podcast about ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals.
Recommended
Transcript
Podcast Reintroduction and Special Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
And we're back in the room. We are back in the room. We're back in the room, Martin. And but this week... But we're not alone. Yes. We're not alone at all. We have a special guest. Hello, Alicia from Italy. Hello. Hello. Crowd noise. And a cat.
Halloween Cat and ADHDville Theme
00:00:19
Speaker
What's the cat's name? Spooky.
00:00:22
Speaker
Spotty. Spooky. Spooky. Spooky. Spooky. It's a perfect day to be spooky. Here it is. Halloween. Okay. Okay. So that only leaves to say welcome to ADHDville. Yeah.
00:00:48
Speaker
We have a special guest.
00:01:04
Speaker
Okay, okay.
ADHD Diagnoses and Mental Space Exploration
00:01:06
Speaker
Hello, I'm Paul Thompson. I was diagnosed with the combined ADH and the D almost exactly more or less a year ago. and I'm Martin Weston. I was diagnosed with the combined poo-poo platter in 2013.
00:01:19
Speaker
2013. So we're just two who two mates, but who by coincidence or not, after 39 years of friendship, discovered that we're co ADHD as hurrah. It's really important to say this is an entertainment podcast, Martin, about adult ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice about from about advice from qualified health professionals. I'll start that again, does not substitute individualized advice from qualified health professionals. God, I always struggle with that. So don't take any advice from us. We're just here as a kind of all-inclusive ADHD park bench with room for everyone, including your double gangers, your alter egos, your buddy doubles, your chaperones, and even your best buddies. Okay, still here.
00:02:12
Speaker
okay grab they Grab your jetpacks, your petal hose, space hoppers or any other transportation transportation methods and let us take you to ADHDville, an important town that we've created in our minds, where we like to explore different parts of the A, the D, the H and the D.
00:02:32
Speaker
And we start off as always here in the Town Hall in the Mayor's Office, where we the joint mayors of ADHD will take care of business. And as we have said, we can just welcome Alicia to the Mayor's Office.
Alicia's Teaching and Striking Experiences in Italy
00:02:48
Speaker
Hello. Hello. Hello. and Hello. How are you? You OK?
00:02:56
Speaker
I'm okay. Today I striked. I didn't go to work because I'm a teacher and ah you know in ah in Italy teachers are treated like sheep and today so we were we reunited in the in in the center of Milan and ah we tried to make our voice heard by this horrible, repressive ah government.
00:03:31
Speaker
So you'd be protesting on the streets? Okay, yes, my morning. yes ok I was protesting. It's still the best way to protest, protest you know, I think. i think those like Hashtags are way too easy.
00:03:46
Speaker
But it's a a little bit old-fashioned right now, but I like to explain ah to my students, six years old, seven years old, what a strike e is. the And they are very, very interested. They ask me, teacher, can I ah do a house strike? What do you mean? Can I...
00:04:14
Speaker
Can I tell my parents that if they don't start to save energy and stop pollution, I won't go back home? Okay. Fantastic. it Yes, yes. They learn to create. The best forms of protests are always the most are the creative ones, I think.
00:04:40
Speaker
OK, so so so so it yeah it's been protesting in the morning and podcasting in the afternoon. What a day.
Friendship and Autism Diagnosis Discussions
00:04:49
Speaker
What a day. So I thought I'd just put this into context so so that so you understand what what have how I relate to Alicia. We've been friends, Alicia, for what, seven or eight years?
00:05:04
Speaker
I think we met in 2016 or maybe 2017. Okay okay okay and we pretty much we've always kind of met up thanks to music and concerts has always been our like excuse oh you know yes ah like Sleafood Mods were playing in Turin so oh let's meet up let's see Sleafood Mods Or as we were just talking about. the The fun thing about me and Paul that we met the first time at my show. I was the one who was playing. I was on stage. You were sitting in the corner. Yeah. You were sitting in the middle of the bar.
00:05:46
Speaker
Yes and then at the bar we talked and it was a friendship at first sight. Yeah exactly it's amazing. And then I think the last time we we met up was when we saw Jarvis Cocker again in Turin. Yes.
00:06:04
Speaker
Jarvis and Slythermant in the same day. Slythermant in the afternoon, Jonny Marr and Jarvis in the evening. Oh yes, Jonny Marr. Jonny Marr. Wow, there we go. A legendary guitarist, obviously. John the Smiths. Yes. Yes. And then... I've also seen... So we need to find another excuse, Alicia, for we find a concert...
00:06:32
Speaker
Any concept, any random concept, let's meet up again. All right. But you, you, I don't know where you live, so I don't know.
00:06:43
Speaker
You're like a Pokemon happy appearing ah in different places. Yes. That's, I've heard worse names, but yeah, Pokemon is good.
00:06:56
Speaker
I work with kids. Yeah, yeah, right, right. um oh um let's So, Alice, you gone to the matter in hand yes so you've been quite recently diagnosed with the ADH and the D.
00:07:12
Speaker
No, I've been diagnosed with the autism spectrum disorder. I haven't been tested for ADHD. At the moment I don't have... ah I'm not planning to do the test because I'm... learning a lot of things ah about autistic spectrum disorder. And um for me, as for many and people,
00:07:41
Speaker
ah adults diagnosed ah in, I'm 38, so I was diagnosed in my 38. It was a sort of um liberation because i i were um I was being very mean ah to myself. I was telling a lot of bad things to myself. How can you be so smart, but ah how can you be
00:08:15
Speaker
not to efficient, not productive enough. There are things that don't match your intelligence. okay Why are you always tired? I felt like ah I had a sort of valve um for my energy and this valve was always open. like I had a sort of a loss of energy all day long. And when I talked to the a neuropsychiatrist, she told me, it it's true, it's real. that The loss of energy that you feel, it's not because you are lazy, it's because you have to think
00:09:01
Speaker
more than other people. you Every time you have to sort of think in a conscious way about everything. How can I interact with this person? What's the right thing to say? Okay, does this rule apply to this situation? Yes or not? Oh my God, he raised his eyebrows. What does this mean? Okay, are they mad? Are they judging me? Okay. oh other stuff coming to autistic adults and maybe to ADHDers.
00:09:39
Speaker
and And so a lot of things ah and came into into place. And yeah I'm happy, it's not to easy, but now I have developed a a sort of compassion and kindness ah that helps me.
Autism, Silence, and Burnout Insights
00:10:00
Speaker
Did you find you just suddenly just discovered a lot of explanations from you to your things that happened in your past?
00:10:08
Speaker
Yes, ah and this is a thing I've been thinking about ah in the last days. so I discovered a lot of hints from my past self in some songs, in some poetry I wrote when I was a teenager and there and There was a lot of suggestions and hints. This ah incredible need for silence. I manifested the through my teens and also when I was a kid, but and I was really obsessed with silence. I used to um to do sort of no-talking ah competition.
00:10:59
Speaker
like ah Let's see, how many hours can I can i spend ah in silence today? Oh my god, I haven't been talking for 9 hours, wonderful!
00:11:14
Speaker
okay yeah i Because talking for me is the um is very tiring. I love to do it when I find someone who share who shares ah an interest, a particular passion ah with me. But in general, small talk and other kind of communication are very, very tiring. So I come home and I sleep.
00:11:44
Speaker
How does that fit with being a teacher? Because I started teaching as well this year. And i my think feeling was, OK, I'm going to burn out really easily and fast. How do you cope with that? you know I have to thank teaching because ah um it was kind of the the the sparkle ah that um ah that led to my burnout ah last year. i I was losing weight. ah i I didn't know why. I was okay very, very, very stressed.
00:12:29
Speaker
and um but i I didn't know why but it was the sensory overload, ah all the kids ah ah screaming um and then I find i found out ah about autism and um it's it's like ah ah teaching um brought me in front ah of the evidence that ah my way of perceiving ah sounds mainly sounds that in my but also um
00:13:06
Speaker
communication and relationship with ah with other people and I'm very controlling when I have to communicate ah maybe with with with others. And when you teach, you have to talk with kids, a lot of colleagues, a lot of parents. ah yeah it's It's very tiring and I'm good.
00:13:29
Speaker
at it because my neuropsychiatrist told me that studying acting and working as an actress ah in my for a lot of years in my life in a theatre sort of saved me.
00:13:47
Speaker
because this study, this ah deep study of communication and um and expression gave gave me a lot of tools ah that ah I can use in reality in order to to look normal because ah you when I tell people, a small group of people, when I tell them that I find um found out that I am autistic, they are like, yeah is your doctor okay? Does she knows what she's talking about? Yes, she knows. The problem is the rest of the world, the general public has a
00:14:34
Speaker
specific idea about autism and how an autistic person should look and act. It's a classic, isn't it? Look at Jim Carrey, for example. you know i mean yeah i mean He even did a film called The Mask, okay, Jim Carrey. It's all ah so You know, Tochena is telling me it's all scenery, right? Yes. Yes. In fact, we were saying the other week that Jim Carrey doesn't know. Well, he says he's all these characters. But when you take those characters away, he isn't anything. He's almost just a blank
00:15:20
Speaker
Nothing. like there isn't There isn't a Jim Carrey. There is just the personas and the characters that he plays, but he says that there's nothing actually under there. He isn't there. That's the extreme end, right? Right. Extreme end.
00:15:40
Speaker
So how did how did you start to kind of, um you know, from you know reaching a point of exhaustion last year? How did you, did you then, when did the idea of autism pop up in your mind? Was it um was a slow thing that came, that came, you know, gradually? In a lot of people ah told me that like a sort of joke,
00:16:09
Speaker
or low-key insults. You're autistic! I've got ah maybe strange passions like my vinyl collection of obscure Asian ah yeah music from the 60s and the 70s. Oh my God, you are autistic. The best DJ, you know, if you want that that kind of like niche music, it's ah amazing. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, very kind of like niche kind of um hobbies and yeah.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yes, but and ah or or they told me, oh, you you want to look strange. No, I really love it. yeah What's the matter? And so a lot of friends ah kind of joke with me about these this thing and the about the fact that ah I sort of have, a ah how do you call the door that um Can I check the internet? for Absolutely. You can check the internet. It's like that the the door that shot...
00:17:32
Speaker
and the and keep the the fire away okay or it divides some section. okay I worked like a sort of fire doors. Maybe I was suffering from and maybe a lost ah boyfriend or other um sad things, maybe losing ah family members, but this pain wasn't visible, okay? yeah most ah ah Mostly when I was working, because when I closed maybe the the theater or the studio door, I was like, zoom.
00:18:17
Speaker
OK, so a lot of people and made a strange idea about me, like I was called distance or maybe she's always in control. She always knows what she is doing. So she she knows everything. She's perfect. fact She's a sort of genius like person. But inside I was really dying. So this sort of mismatching of what I felt inside and what really
00:18:52
Speaker
ah um came outside or I can, I could express outside ah ah ah at at some point. Externalized. It came too much, too much. Yeah. And did you, like I'm guessing that you probably, the people around you all assumed that, oh, Alicia, she's fine. She's got everything under control. And you're thinking, why doesn't anyone ever ask me if I'm okay?
00:19:20
Speaker
Because they assumed it, that I was okay. like In Italy we say, maquita maa who can kill you? Who can kill you? You are so strong. maki ya maza okay yeah Apparently nobody or anything could kill me.
00:19:43
Speaker
a silentlander yeah right But I was ah very, I was suffering all along, but I didn't know why. So with my therapist, we went through a lot of maybe traumatic experience or suffering from childhood, teenager and other
Therapy, Inspiration, and Creative Outlets
00:20:06
Speaker
stuff. But at some point we kind of look at yeah at each other and we said, okay,
00:20:14
Speaker
we've done anything what's wrong okay what are we missing and then she had a ah sort of insight she told me you know Alice another patient of mine ah did the dean the the test for autism spectrum disorder and the she discovered she is ah in fact ah autistic and
00:20:44
Speaker
yes a This helped her from a lot. A lot of things. so um Meanwhile, I was doing some research.
00:20:59
Speaker
ah there' is a um There's a guy I follow because I love his music. He's ah an incredibly smart man. He creates ah games ah and he is autistic. His name is Emmanuel Casto. ah he's He's a musician ah who wrote Porn Groove.
00:21:26
Speaker
a His lyrics yes it's lyricar are very explicit about ah sex and sexuality, but he he tries to expose ah hypocrisy. okay so Sometimes he targets ah the the church ah or other good people, and he's also homosexual. so he he he he's ah a very interesting and smart man and the he did the this video where ah he talked for the first time about all his neuro-divergences. Is this the plural of... okay?
00:22:11
Speaker
ah yeah i do that And while he was explaining all his ah autistic um symptoms, it's not the the the right word, but specificity.
00:22:31
Speaker
Trades, all right. ah ah About his autistic traits, I was like, Okay, check, check, yeah check, yeah check. yeah Because ah even in my mind, ah I didn't have the the body of an autistic person, because in our perception, autistic, it's a rain man.
00:22:57
Speaker
You know, but my but my neuro psychiatrist told me rain man isn't even autistic it is another kind ah of thing he's a Savant a person with a ah small cognitive ah um ability but with a strange and amazing ability in ah some specific things It's not autistic is another thing So it was a life changing. Yeah. Yeah. yeah So I'm ah so I'm guessing a little bit like me in that sound is really important to me. And it and it definitely sounds like like like like that is like a I want to say hyper focus, but it it but is a it is a kind of a real
00:23:54
Speaker
interest and you pay attention, you you pay a lot of attention to the sounds around you and and music and you have ah you know your a music a musician probably a little bit like me. But you sound like you're the but better version of me. um but the you know the I like you were saying, like earlier where creativity is it almost kind of um helps you. It kind of gets a lot of emotions out and words out and things out of you, like all of that stuff that could be all pent up and just kind of, you know, ah yeah ah ah it sort of stops you from sort of sort of a blowing up, right?
00:24:48
Speaker
I completely agree with you and the if I read some of my lyrics ah to today, a they they speak to me in a different way because ah my needs ah were a very present and lively at the time but it was like ah I didn't pay attention to them.
00:25:16
Speaker
may And ah also theater, for me, um I tried to do it ah um as a profession. I studied the at the drama school, a very important drama school in Italy because when I was a teenager, and the theater lessons were the only place where I really felt ah um listened to and comfortable where my need ah of silence, when my need of quiet listening, ah when my need of focus only on one thing and my need of ah being um very
00:26:09
Speaker
a precise ah on all things. ah They were and like, ah um praygie how do you say Preggi?
00:26:20
Speaker
and place privileges. it's like ah they were things that ah they were good things in class. Okay. However, I was ah ah very, very good. there were Gifts. Yeah, gifts. They were so as gifts. But in ah in classroom during lessons, ah um The refrain, Alice, you are polemica. It's polemica. You like to argue on things. ah But I wasn't arguing. I was just asking to understand things because I'm precisa. Precise.
00:27:06
Speaker
chris I'm really precise, okay? So I need to ah um to understand ah deeply things. And my teacher, oh my God, Alice, you're arrogant. You are presumptuous. You criticize. No, I'm trying to understand. But they weren't able to like ah punish me because I was a straight A student. So, okay. yeah Lucky you. Lucky you. i i've So do you feel like.
00:27:42
Speaker
um You you were attracted to the whole acting thing because From a very young age you instinctively kind of like I don't understand people I have to look at them and and pay attention. What does this face mean? What how does that make you know, how do people see me? No in order to understand other the pe around over around her You are really yeah, you're paying attention to everyone's you know how they how how they act so that you can understand how to you know move about in the world and interact with other people you become like a professor of people.
00:28:28
Speaker
ah that That's right because um when I was very little I think it was ah and ah an unconscious thing, but I was good at
Hypervigilance and Sensory Management Strategies
00:28:43
Speaker
observing. I was very seeking of new experience and the new people. um I was a seeker, a seeker of ah experience, ah emotions, so and I liked people because um I liked ah a adult people ah most ah mostly.
00:29:06
Speaker
Because kids, the they were unreasonable. they They were too loud. So I prefer to be with adult people, even in my teens. and um But I studied them very deeply. And ah ah theater ah gave me um consciousness about this thing. But i oh I've always done it unconsciously. it's like and Yeah, it's like for me, when i if it's quite common amongst ah autistic people, is that you you're hypervigilant, that you can you could go into a situation or a room full of people and you can read in interesting say you can read the room. ah Yes, that the feeling that I have is that...
00:29:55
Speaker
I can um take ah ah more information that um average person can because I'm very vigilant, I'm super observing and so a lot a lot of information all the time and in the end it's very tiring because sometimes you are very efficient But sometimes you cannot do anything because you need to recover from all this information. um A metaphor about how my brain works and that i that I use a lot is like ah for a little spark
00:30:44
Speaker
um in my brain ah ah not only one box opens, billions of boxes and a lot of them are useless, but my mind creates links, patterns, and it's tiring.
00:31:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. so have since your Since your diagnosis though, have you if you've been in those situations since you're after your diagnosis where you've you've actually start to maybe um recognise it, anticipate it and maybe manage it better or ah not yet?
00:31:27
Speaker
Absolutely. I started to wear ah um um loop earplugs ah ah sometimes even in class because I know that ah the the loud voices of kids and sometimes just ah make my brain ah melt, literally melt. I cannot do anything. I cannot write a word on the keyboard.
00:31:54
Speaker
if I hear them screaming, playing, it's ah really hard for me. She chose the perfect job. It's very satisfying, although it's very interesting. I couldn't work ah ever in in an office or ever this
00:32:19
Speaker
monotonous work I need a sort of creativity. okay I found out that I didn't want to be a professional actress.
00:32:31
Speaker
because I wasn't ah comfortable with that idea, with that ah professional habitat. A lot of strange people in ah theater and it's 10% your ah acting skill.
00:32:49
Speaker
skills and 90% your PR skills. I'm awful at PR. I'm off awful at and selling myself even in the good the in the good way. I'm the the worst promoter of myself. I need a manager. Fantastic. That's amazing. Yeah, that's so true. That really resonates.
00:33:17
Speaker
It really resonates. I can't do it, but you saw me on the stage. I'm comfortable because I know what I'm doing. I know every words and I feel and I believe in every words I say. I am a sort of God controlling the world she is building. I think you're an amazing teacher. I bet you're an amazing teacher.
00:33:45
Speaker
I think I'm a good teacher because I always keep in mind things that I hated from school years and also I keep in mind that these little kids ah are making memories and I want their memories to be memorable, okay? I don't want to occupy their hard disk with things that don't matter. I want them to have ah good and um ah good memories and ah things that they can remember and maybe when they are adults think about this. But do you find, because i've I've found this, with when when my students come to my lesson, they alreadyi they kind of know that, okay, Prof. Thompson, he's different from everyone else, and the rules have changed.
00:34:44
Speaker
Right. So there's like a there's like a disk. There's like a difficulty like, ah okay, everyone else, all the other teachers want us to stay on the rails, right? So we've been outie, right? And prof Thompson, he wants to he wants us to get off the rails. And it's they're not always ready for that. You know, I found Okay, i am since ah ah at school you work with other teachers, you have to make a ah common rules, because otherwise kids get get confused. Okay. Yes, ah yes I
00:35:30
Speaker
These rails are good rails, but I know that my style of teaching is very ah um ah entertaining and performing because I can sing, ah I can act, ah I like to do funny voices. It's strange, it's different from the average teacher, but it works and they get involved, they get interested in what you are saying and this is how I cope with schoolwork. I think teachers should be autistic or at least on the spectrum. I think that there are more autistic teachers than we think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they are, sometimes they are too strict
00:36:26
Speaker
They're very ah rigid in some things. But ah yeah if they can break this toxic relationship with ah some rules and the predictability, and they are great teachers. I'm very lucky because ah theater ah teaches you to improvise.
00:36:51
Speaker
yeah before yeah doing anything you have to watch your audience ah I watch my kids and say okay today they are crazy I cannot do the right right right right right work okay we have to do something else ah but if you are ah very rigid on the things you have to do Sometimes they are not the right thing to do in that moment for that people. so Okay, well in the interest of time, we always have one question.
00:37:32
Speaker
which um um I'm happy, which which we always ask every guest, which is, you're now part of ADHDville, you're your're part of our our town. Right, the sash.
00:37:48
Speaker
but The sash, where's my sash? That's a sash. and with yeah And you're allowed to open up a any place of, what do we call it? A place of business or activity. A shop or a business or ah or ah or a place.
00:38:09
Speaker
Um, within our
Neurodivergent Experiences and Peaceful Graveyard Vision
00:38:10
Speaker
town. So we've had, uh, someone's opened up a bookshop that was Michael. Um, um, and we've had, um, tapas and a tequila bar.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah. um And we've had a fun a fun park from Maddie. ADHD Fun Park. And we've also had a record store as well. Final. Final record shop. We've already got one. So so we've already got one of those. m So what what place would you like to daughter i I thank you because you are um making me able to make a ah ah dream ah come true. I perceive myself as a sort of guardian. Okay, so I think I will reclaim the ADHD Ville graveyard.
00:39:13
Speaker
Oh, nice. But I want to ah because, you know, I'm obsessed with silence and it's a very quiet place. I don't find it sad at all. And I think that ah for when people and needs to sort of relax and ah ah slow down and ah be cured from all this overload. ah They can can come to me and my happy graveyard.
00:39:51
Speaker
and I would like to, it yes, it's like a ah study place, maybe we can pay they have tea, yes, picnic, but in the graveyard. I think I'll be comfortable with the graveyard. right and And today or tomorrow is, as we're recording this, today or tomorrow is ah ah Halloween.
00:40:15
Speaker
yeah so yeah hope my Tonight is Halloween. Sounds great. Sounds great. Well I've got to come and visit. But can we can, if you want, we can add some fake ah tombstones to ah like ah lovely autistic people of the past. I would like to have ah Emily Dickinson's tombstone in my graveyard. I would like to have ah Samuel Beckett's tombstone in my graveyard and thank them because I love them and now
00:40:52
Speaker
I know why I like them so much because we had the same obsessions. but i' got Fantastic. in the in the In the graveyard that's just up the road from me, I've got Judy Garland is there. Oh wow. And Malcolm X as well. Oh my god.
00:41:17
Speaker
I was massively into Malcolm X when I was a kid, when I was growing up. I studied Malcolm X. When you live in in in yorkd New York, you you end up with like famous people dead around you.
00:41:33
Speaker
even In Milan, there is a beautiful, beautiful monumental graveyard. yeah shimittero monumental There are a lot of rich people, but also a lot of very interesting artists ah are there. So sometimes I pay them a visit.
00:41:53
Speaker
Nice. Nice. Of course you do. the paint On that note, thank you so much. Fantastic. Thank you so much. It has been lovely and and thank you for ah letting me um tell my story.
00:42:10
Speaker
and ah It's ah interesting to find ah yeah things that resonate across the neurodivergences because there are some things that that connects and resonates and they are interesting. And we were talking before we came on air, we were talking about autism, specifically about autism. I think it'd be great to have you again on Again in the Future, more maybe talking more specifically about where ADHD and autism, that where they merge. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be great. Really great. Awesome. I'm going to hit that outro button, which is right here. Go on.
Episode Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:42:56
Speaker
there we go all right so that just leaves it out for me to say adhdville is delivered fresh every tuesday to all purveyors of fine podcasts please subscribe to the pod and rate us most magnificent and feel free to correspond at will in the comments but wait there's more if you want to see how beautiful beautiful faces all three of us then all three of us to the youtubes um and also you can find us on the tiktoks um and if you feel feel like it uh you can you can pick up a quill and email us at adhdville at gmail dot.com but in the meantime be fucking kind to yourself
00:43:38
Speaker
And I beseech you, fellow ADHDers, know thyselves. Sons of the hounds, come hither and get the flesh. Blimey. All right. Well, thanks a lot, Alicia. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you so much. And we're out. There, says the mayor. That's that.