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Episode 201: Walter Thompson-Hernandez on Journalism as Ethnography in 'The Compton Cowboys'
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Transcript
Introduction: Making Writing Cool and the Last Cowboys
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Speaker
If they don't make writing cool again, if they don't make, you know, like bringing more kids that they could potentially be the last Cowboys in Compton.
00:00:15
Speaker
Hey, CNFers! It's the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. How they became who they are and what they're working on. I'm your host, Brandon O'Mara.
Meet Walter Thompson Hernandez
00:00:30
Speaker
Hey, hey, good to be with you. Today's guest for episode 201.
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Speaker
is Walter Thompson Hernandez. He's what I call a multi hyphenated storyteller. He uses audio, video, and of course the mighty pen in his line of work. He's the author of the new book, The Compton Cowboys, The New Generation of Cowboys in America's Urban Heartland. This book is bonkers good, but we'll get to that in due time.
Supporting Creatives and Personal Reflections
00:01:06
Speaker
Make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you get them, man. Apple, Google, Spotify, Stitcher, Pocket Cast, it's all over. If you dig the show, consider leaving a kind review on Apple Podcast and linking up to the show on social media. Tag me and the show at CNFpod, at Brendan O'Mara, and I'll be sure to jump in the fire with you. So, excuse me, got a yawn there.
00:01:37
Speaker
I'm not bored or anything but sometimes when I'm talking I get a little out of breath and I either catch it and it's probably gonna happen again. The real question is will I edit it out? I don't think so.
00:01:51
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So the past few weeks I've been mired in my own cauldron of bitterness and resentment again, but I've been trying to apply some weeches to the skin and trying to purge that out of my system. And it's a fuel that doesn't quite burn as clean, you know? But if I step aside, like if I put on my blinker and pull over to the breakdown lane and take a beat and look at all the other creative people and other creative industries and how they lift each other up and support each other, I think,
00:02:20
Speaker
Oh, I can and should do that too. You see comedians all the time are saying, you gotta see so-and-so's hour, she's killing it. Or musicians like Tom Morello or Lars Ulrich on their serious channels will talk about their contemporaries and up-and-comers with reverence and respect. You can tell that they're inspired by other people to then go and do their thing.
00:02:52
Speaker
And maybe that's because they've already made it. They've made their mark so they've staked their claim and now they can celebrate from atop their hill of spoils.
Physical Fitness and Its Impact on Creativity
00:03:02
Speaker
Whatever that size of that hill is. I don't know. But I'm choosing clean, renewable energy, you know. But it's hard.
00:03:12
Speaker
It's even hard when you're getting older, say, pushing 40 like your podcast producer here, and things don't feel quite like they're clicking into place the way you had hoped, you know? I suspect some of you might feel the same. Maybe not, but you might.
00:03:30
Speaker
I've been paying a lot more attention to my physicality, to my body. I'm almost through with this 10,000 kettlebell swing workout. It's like 20 workouts pretty much over the course of 30 days, 500 swings per workout. And a few things in between here and there. But it makes me feel strong and I can't wait to get back to my gym and max out in a few days. I have a home gym, my own creation, it's pretty badass.
00:04:01
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But when I honor and respect my body, I don't want to poison it, you know? And when I don't poison it, I burn clean, my clothes fit better, I feel more confident, and I approach my work with more generosity and passion. And I'm not so beaten down by the victories of others. I'm like, okay, let's hit it. Let's get after it.
00:04:22
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We're in this for the long game, right? And all of that is because I'm treating my body well, eating well, not waking up with brain fog and hangovers. The worst.
00:04:34
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There's nothing like lifting heavyweight, man, for at least for me. And recently the world deadlift record just fell at the hands of Hofthorbe Jornsson, 500 kilograms, over 1100 pounds, I believe, close to it. And he made it look easy. But think about the dedication, the sacrifice,
00:05:00
Speaker
how every calorie he ate, every night's sleep fed that obsession. Like, are you doing that? How bad do you want to finish your book, right? You're gonna have to make some sacrifices and you might get there and maybe you won't get there but you'll never know unless you give it all, give it your all. Like, I'm dying for a 405 deadlift.
00:05:26
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My last max was 385. I'm knocking on the door. I plan on maxing out again in about two weeks. Point being, what are you willing to give up to get there, right?
00:05:41
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And with your work, for instance, how can I help you get where you want to go? I hope this podcast helps give you some of those tips, unpacking how these masters go about the work. But if you want to take that next step, everything I'm talking about is having that coach in your corner. It's about accountability and about knowing where to put the pain. Everybody gets tired in a marathon and a coach will show you where to put the tired.
00:06:06
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Likewise, I'll show you where to put the self out. The tired, the grind, when you're so fucking tired of your own voice.
Walter's Storytelling Journey Begins
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How do you persist in the face of that guy? Email me and we'll start a dialogue. Creative Nonfiction Podcast at gmail.com or brendan-to-brendan-to-mera.com. Your choice.
00:06:26
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I'd love to help you get there the way a trainer or a coach will help you get across that finish line. Now I know that's a quite a mouthful but your patience is going to be greatly rewarded because we have Walter Thompson Hernandez here.
00:06:41
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What a great spirit, a brilliant dude, one of the good ones, you know? And we talk about where he came from, basketball, and the healing power of horses. I'm a horse racing guy, so I know a thing or two about horses. Don't really talk about at all my horse racing background, but some of you know, some of you know I'm into that. So this is a great talk. So let's welcome Sir Walter to the podcast.
00:07:20
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you know, you're a storyteller, and you're using all these things. Yeah, I mean, it's like, I feel like I'm really grateful. I think a lot of it has to do with like, I have ADD, so I get really bored of stuff, you know, so I kind of have to switch it up a lot. But it's yeah, I also like, I do move between like format and medium a lot, you know, and you're right, like, I'm not, you know,
00:07:45
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Like I am a storyteller and I think different stories require different things of us and different mediums. So yeah, I'm definitely doing that. Is there a particular one that really speaks to you above all else? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's writing. I think like…
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I really started all of this by like writing and reading. So I think like the photography or like the sound audio or even like the hosting of videos that I've done also. I think like that all is secondary to like the words and the writing. I think that to me comes the easiest. But yeah, it's all to me like it's all one in the same but I do. I do think like writing is my primary form of storytelling for
Influences: Literature, Activism, and Identity
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sure.
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So you grow up in southeast LA and to a single mom and she's a PhD student in literature. I think it was UCLA? UCLA, yeah, that's it. Okay, and so clearly your mom's drawn to words, to books, to sentences. Does that get into your bones very early in your life?
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Yeah, I mean, I think it does. You know, I think like, my mom couldn't really afford a babysitter. So I used to like, when she used to TA classes, you know, I was in her class, I was like, sitting, sitting like, you know, in the back of her class. And I was with her during her office hours. And I was always on campus. Because at that time, I also went to elementary school on the campus of UCLA. So I was really around my mom a lot. And so like, it was really great. You know, I think I was
00:09:26
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introduced to like literature and like reading and writing at a really early age and like you know, I didn't really read children's books like I read all of my mom's like grad school reading assignments, you know, so yeah, I mean it was a really interesting time like I used to you know, just like really take in her world, you know, and I'm really fortunate for that because I kind of developed this like love of reading and writing early on. Were there any particular books at that age that really stuck out to you in particular?
00:09:55
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Yeah, totally. You know, my mom's like primary focus for her writing was like Chicana, Mexican American, like feminist readings. So so like all the authors that she read, like Sandra Cisneros, Rigoberta Menchu, and people like America Paredes, like these are like very sort of like niche Chicano Chicano writers, but
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you know, these authors introduced me to writing and reading. So I definitely had like a strong Chicana feminism sort of like writing perspective really early on because of my love.
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And I love the – early in the prologue of Compton Cowboys, you wrote that you were – you said, I was the type of kid who chose to set up – oh, shoot, I typed this wrong. But in any case, you stood up on a Thanksgiving celebration in third grade jumping on the table and yelling that Christopher Columbus was a murderer and killed thousands of indigenous people throughout the Americas.
00:11:02
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And where where does that where does that come from? Yeah, 100%. I think it comes from my mom, you know, like my mom, like I said, like she was really active. You know, she was also an activist. So our weekends consisted of, you know, protests and and and hunger strikes and rallies and also like sports. So it was like,
00:11:26
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a protest on Saturday morning and I had like a basketball and soccer game on Saturday and like on Sunday morning we'd be at some hunger strike you know so I think like from a very early age I was sort of like you know taught and inculcated with this idea of like there's history you know there's like the history books that you'll probably be taught at school and then
00:11:46
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there's this real history of what Columbus did and how race and racism works in the US and throughout Latin America. So I think at an early age, I remember that Thanksgiving celebration at my school and everyone in my school was crying and yelling at me and I thought I had to speak out because something was wrong.
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this idea that they were trying to teach us, I think was wrong. I got suspended for a week from school for that, but my mom really celebrated. We had ice cream after I got suspended. She was really proud of me. That's amazing. That's great. Maybe some other moments like that, painting the scene, of course, of you and your mom going to various events, having this kind of activism. It really gets into your bones.
00:12:37
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Totally, man. So I think, you know, when I was growing up in like the early 90s and mid 90s, it was like a very sort of like, California had this strong anti immigrant climate, you know, and when she was a PhD student at UCLA,
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She was also part of this like, this early wave of like Chicano and Chicana, you know, activists on campus who are trying to create the Chicano Studies program at UCLA. And you know, it's interesting because like, there was this huge hunger strike, I think it was 94, that we were a part of, you know, like, my mom took me on campus and we like brought our tent. And we
00:13:16
Speaker
lived on campus with like the rest of the activists for about two weeks and you know, I it was a hunger strike like my mom didn't really eat but I remember sneaking out to like, you know, these like vending machines around campus and eating these like tuna sandwiches and I've come back to the hunger strike, you know, I couldn't eat in front of people. But it was interesting because, you know, the the after that hunger strike, there was
00:13:38
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they created the Chicano Studies program. And you know, I think about like 25 years later, I was in that program as a PhD student at UCLA, which I did for one year. So you know, just like history kind of like, there was this like full circle sort of thing where like, the same program that was hunger striking for is the same one that I was a part of for one year later in life.
From Basketball Dreams to Writing Realities
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It sounds like your mom's a pretty amazing person. Yeah, she's really great. She's really cool.
00:14:06
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Yeah, are you guys still close? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and it's really funny because, like I said earlier, I was in the Chicano Studies PhD program for one year at UCLA before leaving for the New York Times. But my mom, you know, has been a graduate advisor in that program for the past 20 years. So my mom was my graduate advisor while I was at UCLA. Wow. It was really funny. It was really, really funny.
00:14:32
Speaker
Excellent. So as you're coming up through high school and everything, at what point do you kind of lock into a certain career trajectory? Lock into writing and realizing that that might be something you want to kind of lock into? You know, to be completely honest, I think like...
00:14:53
Speaker
because I also played basketball right so like when I was in high school I'm like yeah I was in you know all my classes like for AP classes and my favorite class was AP English you know I still love like all the readings like I remember reading Invisible Man and you know in high school and just love that book so much but I was really focused on basketball right and both in high school and I went to college on a
00:15:16
Speaker
divisional and basketball scholarship at the University of Portland. And so I think basketball for me and sports were like really like my main driver and I really wanted to make the NBA, but I still sort of had this like this like love of writing and reading that I kind of put to the side, you know, because like basketball was like at the forefront. But I think
00:15:38
Speaker
After I graduated from college, I went to go play professional basketball for a few years. I played for the Mexican Olympic team and I played all over Latin America. And I really started to read and write more on our days off or in the mornings or evenings.
00:15:56
Speaker
But I'd be lying if I told you that becoming a journalist or becoming a writer was something that I really thought about. It wasn't. I think when I was living all over Latin America, I really started to become more curious about the world and ask people questions about how they lived. So I think this need to be curious about the world was something that always existed in me.
00:16:20
Speaker
playing basketball and traveling throughout Latin America really sort of put me on this path to being curious about culture and being curious about identity. So when I stopped playing basketball, I again was like, oh shit, what do I do now? I don't want to have a job. I knew I wanted to go back to school, to grad school, but I didn't know what to do. So I started working at this mental health hospital in LA.
00:16:50
Speaker
And to be quite honest, I think my writing really started to develop there. I was in charge of about 12 or 15 residents. It was a hospital, a lockdown facility for about 77 residents who had schizophrenia. And so I think the notes, the very detailed notes that I had to write about my patients every single day really taught me how to be descriptive about people and about how they move and how they think.
00:17:16
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And so I think it all kind of started at the hospital, like where I really started to write and to write about people in the sort of like ethnographic way, right?
Ethnographic Writing and Black Cowboys
00:17:25
Speaker
In the same way that the Compton Cowboys book, you know, like that's an ethnographic project, right? Where I spend hours and days with this community and with this group of people and all that kind of started at the hospital. You know, I'd spend about eight hours a day
00:17:40
Speaker
with people and really observe them how they interact with the world and vice versa. So I think it all kind of started there. And for me, like truly started at the hospital. And circling a little bit back to your your basketball career, you know, what was what would you say you were particularly good at? What was your superpower on the court? My superpower? Well, I think, you know, why my career didn't last longer than three years was because like,
00:18:07
Speaker
they wanted to make me a point guard, but you know, I was a shooting guard, so I would say my superpower was shooting the ball, but they, and it wasn't passing, you know, because if it was passing, I think I'd still be playing, but I'm not, you know. So yeah, growing, so being a two guard, growing up in LA, the death of Kobe Bryant must have shook you to the core. Oh my gosh. Absolutely. You know, and I actually wrote like a big,
00:18:35
Speaker
New York Times feature story about that. A few weeks ago, like I wrote about the murals in LA, you know, I think like, Los Angeles is really interesting, you know, as a as a art city, right, because like, how artists sort of engage with the city has kind of always been in this public way, you know, like when artists are grieving when artists are, are feeling joyful, like they take to the streets, and they, you know, paint murals. So Kobe's deaf, you know, really,
00:19:03
Speaker
you know, galvanize a lot of artists to take to the streets. And there were so many Kobe murals up all over LA. So I like I wrote a story about that. And it was both personal, you know, because I was was Kobe's biggest fan. I think all of LA was. And I think, you know, it really hurt us. He was a really complicated and flawed person, of course. But I think what he did for a lot of people and the inspiration that he sort of gave us is something that we'll never forget.
00:19:34
Speaker
And something else you said, too, as you were coming through the mental health facility and taking down these detailed notes, and you saying that the writing Compton Cowboys was really like an ethnography and being an anthropologist in a lot of ways, and I really feel like
00:19:54
Speaker
narrative journalism and immersive journalism really has more in common with anthropology and ethnographies than you know, true, you know, actual like journalism per se. It sounds like that that resonates with you as well. Yeah, yeah, 100%. You know, like I was on path.
00:20:12
Speaker
to, to becoming like a full academic, you know, like I was, you know, if geography was like, was like a discipline and a skill that I was really drawn to, primarily because like it allowed me to.
00:20:28
Speaker
to not just like sit with a community or ask questions, but also just like allow them to be who they were, right? And so the Compton Cowboys project and book was really an extension of the academic training that I had, you know, in a master's program, in a PhD program, where I was trained by so many incredible ethnographers and anthropologists and sociologists. And I kind of like mesh that with like, you know, with like journalism, right? Because I think like,
00:20:57
Speaker
what I think I do is like bridge these two worlds together right where we have like you know journalism and we have you know like academic sort of like practices so I think I'm somewhere in the middle right you know we're like I think you know that there's always this like back and forth right where like journalists will always sort of like you know push back against academics and say that you know oh they're so out of touch you know ivory tower you know that they don't really get it and then academics will always
00:21:26
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you know, push back against journalists and be like, well, you know, they're only scratching the surface, you know, it's not like rigorous. So I think like, I see both sides, and I've kind of lived in both worlds now. And I'm kind of somewhere in the middle. I think like, you know, at its at its core, I think like both journalists and academics are kind of doing the same things. They're just using different methods. So I feel like I kind of extract the best of both of those worlds.
00:21:54
Speaker
And I like that you write early in the book too when you're a kid and you see these black cowboys on these horses going down the street and how captivating that is. I wonder if maybe you can kind of paint that scene for us and what that did to you as a young kid, seeing these indelible images of these men on horseback against a backdrop that you don't necessarily associate horseback.
00:22:24
Speaker
Right, absolutely. So I'm, I'm about six or seven years old. And at the time, like my mom was pretty much like gone. Like every, every weekday, you know, she was like at UCLA, and it was about like an hour commute every single day. So I wouldn't really see her, you know, like she get home, like really late at night, and I'd be sleeping. So the weekends were like our time, right? So
00:22:49
Speaker
every weekend, I think we'd drive somewhere, we'd go shopping, we'd go buy groceries. Sometimes we would drive to Compton, which was about five, 10 minutes away from our house. And in Compton, there was a thriving black cowboy, black cowgirl community. And so seeing cowboys for the first time was such a jarring experience because they were black, right? And it was so jarring because these weren't the cowboys that I was learning about in school.
00:23:18
Speaker
we were learning about like, you know, white cowboys and John Wayne and like seeing Marlboro ads with like, you know, white guys smoking cigarettes. And that wasn't the image that I was seeing in Compton. So it felt like to, you know, to be honest, it felt like I had been lied to, right? And I think the hardest part about that was that like, it wasn't just me who was being lied to about this history, but it was like my classmates as well. So it was such a jarring experience. And I'll never forget that, you know, like I,
00:23:49
Speaker
were like driving down the street and I see these like two black men on horses. That seemed like, you know, magical and wondrous. And I had so many questions. And they're like, I look at my mom who had seen them before, like she had seen the black cowboys and she's not fazed by it at all. You know, she's like, yeah, like black cowboys, you know, it was so funny because like, it was such a watershed moment for me. And you know, I think at that age, we don't really have the
00:24:17
Speaker
the lexicon or the vocabulary to really describe how we're feeling. So I think at this age, I can kind of put words to feelings and emotions that really had no way of being described. And I love, too, that here's that experience you have when you're six or seven years old. And then as you grow up and you're an adult, and then there's this point, too, where you say, I traveled to about eight different countries and worked on 10 stories in the span of eight months.
00:24:46
Speaker
And then and yet the story that you walk into for this book is the one that was in your backyard the whole time when you were a kid like I did that just struck me how you're this globetrotter and then ultimately you're pulled back to this very This this subculture from when you were a kid Yeah, it's so ironic right that like the one story that would prove to be like the most powerful and the most inspiring and I think the most like I
00:25:14
Speaker
Far reaching was like one that was 10 minutes away from my house. It's so ironic and I think about that often. I feel like sometimes words can't describe what happened or logical reason can't really describe what happened.
From New York Times to Book Deal: Walter's Path
00:25:30
Speaker
Yeah, but it's so ironic that it was a sort of like full circle moment, right? Where like, I'm traveling around the world and I'm working on stories all over and asking people, you know, really intimate questions about their lives. And the Compton Cowboys story was the one that really kind of blew up and happened like essentially right in my backyard, so to speak.
00:25:51
Speaker
And did you actually have a book in the works and then you did the feature story for the Times? Or had you written the Times story and that led to the book opportunity? Oh yeah. So like I said earlier, I think this idea of becoming an author and writing a book was something that I…
00:26:11
Speaker
I didn't really seek out to do. I think I was just like so present. And I've always kind of been present. And I think being present is like why, you know, these opportunities happen, but also like the the switching back between different mediums happen as well. Right. So when I wrote that New York Times feature about the Compton Cowboys, you know, man, it kind of just blew up. And like the next day, I had like so many emails and
00:26:37
Speaker
people got my phone number. I don't know how people were calling about the story and like, hey, like, are you represented by anybody? Do you have an agent like literary agents like TV and film agents like the story just really took off and really blew up. And to be honest, like I wasn't ready to handle all of that. You know, like I was someone who was
00:26:55
Speaker
who had just started writing for the New York Times about two months before that. And that was a life-changing sort of thing. Being a New York Times writer was such a huge deal. But nobody ever prepared me for the world of having agents or crafting a book proposal.
00:27:15
Speaker
So it kind of just happened, you know, like I met with so many agents, I was in New York, luckily. And within like a week, I had to sign up with an agent, my agent Chad, who was at Janko Nesbitt. And we had a book proposal in about a few weeks. And we had a book deal a few weeks after that. And it kind of just happened, you know, and then
00:27:40
Speaker
the book deal happened and so did the feature film deal as well. So yeah, it's kind of been a, like a whirlwind. Yeah, jeez, that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So, so as you, you know, when you're, you're playing career wraps up and you're trying to, you know, figure out what the next chapter is in your life, thinking you might be in academia and, and whatever you go to grad school and you end up,
00:28:06
Speaker
freelancing a bit, but you also end up landing at the New York Times. So let's connect the dots there. How did you end up at the Times, which ultimately gets you to Copton Cowboys? Sure. So after grad school, after graduating from Stanford, I really began freelancing then. And I remember
00:28:28
Speaker
I was in Belgium to work on a story about multiracial identity, which the Guardian picked up and that was like the first story I ever worked on that that got published. And like after being in Belgium, I moved back to LA and started researching at a think tank at USC. And it was a think tank about like that, that researched immigration and race and things like that. So I worked there for two years, like in those two years,
00:28:55
Speaker
It's when I really started freelancing for different companies. I started working for a company called Fusion for The Guardian sometimes for NPR. And I kind of just got in a really great groove for these two years. And then during those two years, it was my idea that I would eventually go to a PhD program. And so I applied to a few different PhD programs. I get into Cornell and I get into UCLA.
00:29:23
Speaker
And I kind of had this like, you know, I was at this crossroads, right, where, in my mind, I'm like, okay, if I go to Cornell, I'm going to be in this like super academic, you know, super like ivory tower, you know, role where like, I'll be like heavy into theory, or, and in my mind, I'm like, or I can stay UCLA, and kind of still maybe do the same things that I've been doing, like kind of this like,
00:29:50
Speaker
like, pseudo public intellectual, still freelance, and still be in LA, you know, where I think like, I wanted to be so I choose UCLA. And, you know, I'm in class for a week. And I'm like, Oh, man, like, this PhD stuff is not for me. You know, like, I'm still freelancing. And I'm
00:30:15
Speaker
it just felt too theoretical, you know, it felt too removed and disconnected from like, you know, the, like, I had just worked on a story in Madagascar a few weeks before, you know, my first week at UCLA, and I was I was there for two months working on this really powerful story. And it just didn't feel right. So I was at UCLA, you know, still freelancing. And I someone sends me like,
00:30:41
Speaker
This New York Times job opportunity that really kind of spoke to me. It was called surfacing and it was, it was like this like multimedia role where you would travel around the world and you would, you would write and you would, you know, take photos and you would shoot video and you would host videos.
00:30:59
Speaker
I just knew, like, when I saw that, I was like, man, that's me. And I knew I would get it, you know, it's kind of crazy. I think some people say that, you know, it's like, oh, you know, when I saw that, I knew I had it. But like, I really felt it like in my soul and in my spirit. And so I applied and I kind of forgot about it. And a few months later, I get a get an email and six interviews later, I got hired and they offered me the role. And yeah, it's crazy, man, because like, and the rest is history, you know,
Emotional Investment and Objectivity in Journalism
00:31:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's amazing. So when you're on these reporting trips, what are the tools at your disposal? What are you carrying with you as you go out there and do these recordings so you can gather the information you need to come back and synthesize these stories you write? Yeah, so when I was with The Times,
00:31:52
Speaker
I would be on these trips for about like 11, 12 days, usually. And let me tell you, you know, I was supposed to write a story, take photos, shoot video. Like those 12 day trips were incredibly exhausting and grueling, right? Because, you know, there's something really great about being able to write and take photos and do all these different things. But it's also a lot of work, you know, because like you are essentially playing the role of that three people would potentially play
00:32:22
Speaker
And so I have my recorders with me, I have, you know, my DSLR camera, I have audio equipment, I have tripods, I have it all. And, you know, just like really fully immersing yourself in this story for 12 days, it's like both physically taxing, but also emotionally exhausting, you know, because like,
00:32:43
Speaker
I think one thing about me that that maybe separates me from like maybe other journalists or writers is that like I have such a strong emotional attachment to the people who I spend time with and the people who I interview in the communities who I spend time with. Like I am so incredibly grateful for you know,
00:33:01
Speaker
to them for allowing me to spend time with them. And like, I feel so emotionally attached to people. And I think like, you know, maybe in like, you know, these journalism programs or grad programs, like, they teach you to sort of have this like objective
00:33:15
Speaker
you know, fly on the wall sort of approach. But like, you know, I'm a person of color. And like most of the people in communities who I spend time with, like, are people of color. And I feel like they're family in a sense. And I know there's like, maybe some people who would be like, well, how could you write about somebody in this objective way? And I think I can do both, you know, like I, you know, am both a participant and an observer in these communities and these spaces. And so I think, like,
00:33:43
Speaker
those those work trips are like really exhausting for me because at the end of like these 12 days I feel so emotionally attached to these people and and I feel like you know like I have to write the story in the most honest and respectful way and I think that's what kind of separates me from from others.
00:33:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think that becomes especially more challenging too when you spend, I mean, you're having that kind of attachment in 12 days and here with, you know, with the Compton Cowboys, you spent the greater part of a year with a lot of these men and women and there's all the more time to be enmeshed into their lives and to have that connection.
00:34:23
Speaker
So at that point, what becomes the challenge for you to try to tell the most raw, honest, true story, but also in a way, once you're that close to them, you also kind of want to protect them at the same time. So how did you navigate that? That's such a great question. I think it was so challenging because I think you're absolutely right. Like after the course of like, you know, a year, year and a half, two years, like I've absolutely
00:34:48
Speaker
you know, like, those lines between like a subject, right, and journalist, I'm, you know, we're often blurred, because I consider, you know, a lot of these guys, like, my friends, like, I'm at their birthday parties, I'm out there like children's baptisms, you know, it wasn't hard for me, but I think it was hard for them at times, to
00:35:10
Speaker
to really like hear and to read the things that I was writing about, right? Because for a lot of these guys, you know, these men and women, this is the first time that they're being confronted with like,
00:35:22
Speaker
these types of questions, right? I'm asking questions about trauma. I'm asking questions about death. I'm asking questions about drug abuse, alcohol abuse, that they're experiencing, that their families are experiencing. And I'm asking questions about death, about deaf and their families, right? So I think the hardest part was not writing or reporting on it. But it was like being there in these moments when a lot of these like, you know, like cowboys are, are really having to confront
00:35:52
Speaker
these issues for the very first time in their lives, right? So it was like part therapeutic for them, which
00:35:59
Speaker
was a lot for me to ingest, right? So I think, you know, one of the hardest parts for me was like, what to do with all that information and all that trauma, because you know, trauma is carried and trauma is inherited, but it's also passed through, you know, passed to others. And I think I took on a lot of that. So the hardest part for me was like, how did I stay emotionally
00:36:22
Speaker
and you know like spiritually and psychologically balanced throughout that process and like that meant like finding a therapist it meant like really taking time for myself like being healthy staying active so I think you know there was a lot going on but and it was a struggle for the both of us and like I hope the book reflects that you know because I hope like you know I write about them in the most honest way but also with like a lot of tender and care you know at the same time
00:36:47
Speaker
Oh, for sure. Yeah, you write about that well. And it's a testament to your capacity to earn the trust of the people that you're around and then to be sort of entrusted with that story and to tell it in a way that is, you know, at times it's unflattering for a lot of the people involved. But, you know, as a reader, I didn't come across judgmentally or judging them for who they are. They just feel all the more human. And that's a credit to your capacity to
00:37:17
Speaker
Empathize and tell the story and as you know true and in a empathetic way as possible Yeah, and and you know that's really true. I think historically, you know, like most most sort of like like stories about people of color and in urban communities are like very sort of like one-dimensional and
00:37:37
Speaker
and very tropey. And I think my goal was to really tell the most honest story that I could and to really create these three dimensional portraits of each cowboy and each cowgirl and really paint them in the most honest way. And I really hope readers feel that.
00:38:00
Speaker
And you write towards the end, which I think the author's note of the book too, which is at the end, at least in terms of my galley, was at the end. And it really pulls back the curtain a little bit.
Identity Challenges and Healing Through Writing
00:38:13
Speaker
And I think it goes to your point of towing that line between the writer and friend. And specifically when you were going to see Kenneth and he struggles with alcohol,
00:38:27
Speaker
And, you know, you went to see him, you know, you had your recorder and everything, you know, and you could just smell the alcohol on him. And it's just like, as a writer, you know that that's good stuff and good tension and character. But at the same time, you were like, at some point, you turn the recorder off because you're like, no, at some point, I need to be more human than writer in this moment. Yeah, absolutely. I think that was like one of the challenges, right? Because like, you know, there is like
00:38:55
Speaker
these that the people in the story are so beautiful to me and and and so incredible and so complex and so flawed and and it was really hard sometimes right because it's like I know this scene would be really important to like set up tension or like to like set up conflict in the book but there were times where I'm like you know what like I think their humanity to me
00:39:16
Speaker
is and preserving that is more important than what this book means. And this book is really important, but I think overall in the grand scheme of things, who they are as humans is way more important to me than anything.
00:39:31
Speaker
And in moments like that or in times when you might have to talk to Kiara about the sexual abuse when she was younger and then her brother was murdered and then she's into drugs and everything because of all of this trauma.
00:39:49
Speaker
Like how do you you know and also with Kenneth's alcoholism and and and so forth you know How do you signal at least you know signal to them? You know okay? This is Walter in reporter mode or you know or this is Walter You know as a friend like how are you? Navigating these conversations, so I don't I don't know so there's trust involved yeah, I think the
00:40:14
Speaker
the sort of rapport and relationship was established really early on.
00:40:21
Speaker
most people, generally speaking, have a really great read on people's intentions, right? And I think most of us, like, know when someone's intentions are pure, and know when someone's intentions are not. And so I think with me, most people when they meet me, kind of like, you know, feel this like really sort of like, you know, that my intentions appear that like, I really believe in this story. And I think their stories are really important and they matter.
00:40:46
Speaker
And I think people sort of feel that in me. So I think with Kiara and with Kenneth, it helped that we had established a relationship of trust, right? But I think it also helps that I am not naive about any of this, right? Like alcoholism and death and drug abuse are things that I've experienced in my own life and people in our family and community continue to experience and are victims of.
00:41:12
Speaker
And so I think with that understanding, it really helps in telling this story, right? Because I'm not approaching this in this sort of voyeuristic way where I'm sensationalizing accounts of death or drug abuse or violence, but I'm just reporting it as I see it and also understand it. So I think with them,
00:41:31
Speaker
It was both trust, rapport, but also they felt that I knew what they were saying. They didn't have to code switch around me. They didn't have to give me a sort of performative version of themselves. They were speaking to Walter, who is both a friend, who is someone who lives in the community and who also happens to be writing a book about them.
00:41:54
Speaker
And you write also about how with respect to say someone like Randy and other people who were able to sort of redefine who they are on the ranch. They were able to find and kind of reconstruct a new life on the ranch and be protected by the horses in that subculture.
00:42:20
Speaker
And you also write too that you've experienced a deep sense of survivor's guilt and you felt isolated from friends and family that had crystallized into bouts of depression as you write. So I wonder if maybe you could speak to that because it's something you've experienced and also something that I think was reflected in just using Randy as an example. Yeah. I think Randy is a really great example of someone who was obviously born and raised in Compton.
00:42:48
Speaker
who got the opportunity to go to a really great liberal arts college here in L.A. And I think he's someone who is really, you know, understands the sort of power and redemptive quality of horses and the ranch, right? And I think he's someone who, you know, could live anywhere, you know, but he's chosen to come back to Compton and to really lead this ranch into the future. And so I think
00:43:18
Speaker
With that idea of survivor's guilt, I think Randy definitely experiences that. There were so many emotional moments that I experienced interviewing Randy, spending time with him.
00:43:27
Speaker
You know, it was maybe the first time that he's cried in front of somebody else. And I think he trusted me with that. And so with, and for me personally, I think survivor's guilt is something that I continue to experience. You know, like I'm, you know, a man of color, you know, I have a black father, Mexican mother. I sort of identify with like both, both groups and not everyone in my family or my peer group or my community has had the opportunity that I've had in my life. And not everyone has a passport or has
00:43:57
Speaker
left LA. And I'm someone who has really done all of that. So I think these are things, if you don't come from this experience and from this environment, you know, like you have no idea what survivor skill means or what it stands for. And I think, you know, that's kind of one of the things that that that bonded Randy and I was that both of us were experiencing this and both of us were, you know, around horses, and it was a really healing process.
00:44:23
Speaker
And you have a great TEDx talk about that, the multiracial identity that you've experienced. And I wonder how long it took you to fully embrace both sides of your identity. Because I know you speak about struggling, having one boot in one and one in the other, and sometimes not fully being able to embrace one or the other. You speak about far more eloquently than I am. But I was wondering if you could speak to that and how you've learned to embrace both.
00:44:53
Speaker
Totally so I think you know it's it's been a process right and you know if I were to sit here and tell you that I fully figured it out I think I'd be lying to you because like you know race and identity is so nuanced and it's so complex and especially living in somewhere like LA which has a really sort of like segregated history between ethnic and racial groups like in Los Angeles and
00:45:17
Speaker
like, you know, there are territorial lines around race. And as someone who is both black and brown, like navigating them has not been easy, right? When, you know, like the world really does a great job of trying to put us in boxes. And as someone like myself, like I don't fit in any of these boxes, you know, because there are multitudes, right? And I think like, you know, identity is like so much about
00:45:42
Speaker
not so much about who we think we are, but how the world sort of thinks about us and places us, right? So I think it's something that has been really challenging. And in regards to this book, I think, you know, like, African American and Mexican racial violence is something that is, is still a thing in Compton. And there are moments when I think I was able to write about that in ways that were honest in ways that were realistic, right. And I think that's one thing that
00:46:10
Speaker
I can't speak to this idea of black and brown identity and black and brown violence in LA. I have a personal and journalistic background in that.
Cowboy Culture and Community Healing
00:46:21
Speaker
with the with respect to the book to it's got um... all these wonderful you know sketches of all although you your core characters throughout but but yet the book itself doesn't have what you would call it a traditional through line you know it was it's not like you know beginning the farms in jeopardy and at the end of farm is saved you know it there are just it there's still it's still fluid in there still the the future i think is still somewhat on
00:46:50
Speaker
You know rocky rocky ground because it's just hard to find the right funding especially with my Asia retiring so you know what for you what became the the challenge in sustaining thrust over the course of the great sketches that you were able to you know you know bound between these two covers.
00:47:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, in terms of like form and in terms of narrative arc, I think it was really hard to your point, you know, I think there are so many individual stories that like weave through the ranch. And there's like, so many different ways to have told a story. And so for me, I kind of want wanted the ranch to be this like central protagonist, right? Where we're like, you know, the characters and the experiences
00:47:34
Speaker
And the events throughout the book are these sort of different arteries that essentially all lead back to the ranch. And so, which is really challenging too, right? Because like, I think you're absolutely right. I think this book doesn't follow this traditional linear chronological sort of approach, right? Because I think I didn't want to do that, because the Cowboys don't live their lives in that way. And, you know, they aren't these sort of like,
00:47:59
Speaker
ABCD, you know, chronological ways of living. So I really wanted to emulate how people live their lives and like how complicated like living for the ranches. And yeah, it's something that I hope wasn't wasn't confusing to readers, but that maybe kept kept people, you know, like on alert, you know, because I think that there are so many different names and experiences that are we've taught the book that I can see it being a bit confusing, but
00:48:29
Speaker
The ranch is like the center of the story, right? And like what happens to the ranch is this like what I wanted people to really come away with.
00:48:38
Speaker
Yeah, and I think a part of the central tension also is this an old-school, new-school thing between the outgoing Maisha and Randy being young in his early 30s-ish as he's trying to take over the ranch, trying to secure more funding to keep this ranch in the center of Compton as a refuge for healing.
00:49:05
Speaker
And also central to that tension, too, is writing Western versus writing English. And maybe you can speak to that about that dichotomy. Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's absolutely this like generational divide, right? Between this like old-school Meisha and the founders and the board and their sort of approaches to writing and how to maintain the ranch and, you know,
00:49:34
Speaker
their writing style was English style writing, right? And which is more sort of like formal. And you have Randy and his peers who, you know, really love Western writing, which is more sort of like edgier and rougher and really has like a different sort of connotation in the horse world, right?
00:49:57
Speaker
And it was just so clear that there was like such a huge divide right between like the old school and the new school. And I think that was like such an important part of this story is that, you know, there are questions, right? Like, well, Randy wants to sort of like, re-inject this Western approach to writing, but that also means that potentially there's going to be less funding and less money for the ranch. It's also going to bring in like a different type of rider to the ranch because like Mahisha really wanted like,
00:50:27
Speaker
you know, to, to have is like highly disciplined, very like formal styles of writing. And like, that essentially meant a different type of kid. And I think Randy really speaks that in the book where he's like, you know what, like, those kids are great. But a lot of those kids who who write in that way are middle class and upper class. And Randy really wanted horses to be cool in the hood again. And so it's like such a central theme in the book about like, and it's also, you know, I think universal, right? Because I think
00:50:56
Speaker
universally speaking, this idea of like, the old school and the new school is something that a lot of people can relate to, right? Because like, you know, like, older folks usually think that young people don't know what they're talking about, or like, have no experience, or like, young people think that, you know, older, older generations are washed.
00:51:14
Speaker
And they don't really get it. So I think that tension kind of flows throughout the book. And then there's also moments when there's synergy between Randy and Maisha and the new school and the old school. And I think Randy, towards the end of the book, kind of realizes that they're all trying to do the same thing. And it's not easy running a ranch.
00:51:34
Speaker
Right, and the fundamental core of this that everyone can agree on in the book is that they want to save as many kids as possible, at least let these horses do the work that they've been able to do since they developed as a species. We've kind of evolved along horses. We've been able to, for better or worse, conquer the world on horseback, for lack of a better term. That's right.
00:51:59
Speaker
Yeah, and there's definitely a kinship there and I think to Randy's point, you know, making it, you know, trying to make it cool to a new generation of child on the street. If the streets are raising them as you guys write and horses can save, then this is the way to save the most kids if you can appeal to them on their level right now.
00:52:25
Speaker
Right. And like, you know, Randy's a really smart guy, you know, he's a really bright guy who understands like, you know, marketing and branding. And I think he really gets all of that, you know, and I think at the end of the day, there is like, this like collective fear, right? And the collective fear that is like, so deeply embedded into each of the cowboys and cowgirls is that they, if they don't make writing cool again, if they don't make
00:52:51
Speaker
you know, like bringing more kids that they could potentially be the last Cowboys in Compton. And I think like that's one of their fears and they're doing everything in their power to ensure that that doesn't happen.
00:53:03
Speaker
And you also write that every cowboy rides for different reasons, but each rode horses because it healed them and healed members of their families and their communities. How powerful was that to just see how this majestic giant mammal could save people? Yeah. I mean, I think I really had no idea of the sort of
00:53:28
Speaker
redemptive and healing properties that that that riding horses creates. I think like when I was a child, you know, I only understood horse horses and horse riding as like, this really cool aesthetic, right. But I think being on the ranch every single day just like really made it so clear that like,
00:53:48
Speaker
that is it is incredibly therapeutic equine therapy as historically been studied and there are so many studies that prove of its healing benefits people who have experienced PTSD.
00:54:02
Speaker
people who suffer from autism, et cetera, really choose equine therapy as a way to heal. So I think the ranch has showed me that, yes, in fact, every cowboy rode for different reasons. But in a city that is incredibly economically deprived and marginalized, I think therapy is really expensive. So a lot of people can't afford
00:54:32
Speaker
traditional therapy, but they can go to the ranch and ride and they can't go to the ranch and be around horses who teach them how to be soft and teach them how to heal from a lot of the wounds. I saw what happens when the cowboys don't ride for a week or two weeks or three weeks. There's a physical change in their bodies. I think this really showed me about how powerful it is to ride horses and also looking past Compton.
00:55:02
Speaker
I think one of Randy's missions is to really sort of like create this model of this like urban ranch and try to replicate that. And I think like Randy's goal is, you know, in his mind, he's like, listen, like these horses have healed us, have healed us, right? And so we believe they can heal others. And so I think the, this really starts with healing and it ends with healing. And I think that's something that they hope to continue to expand.
00:55:30
Speaker
And in the book, too, you wrote that when you were 14, your best friend was shot and killed. And over the course of your life, too, you've known high school friends who have been murdered, too. And that's just deeply, deeply traumatic. And for one, I was just saying, like, I'm really sorry you had to go through that. I'm sorry for your losses there. In what ways, given what you've been through, too, how have you
00:55:59
Speaker
process that and maybe how has maybe writing helped you and how has maybe being around the ranch and being around these these really empathic animals helped you too.
The Discipline and Privilege of Writing
00:56:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was it was it was really helpful. I think like, you know, I had never consistently saw a therapist before writing this book. And I had never really been around horses as much as I was for these two years, you know,
00:56:24
Speaker
So I think in thinking about my own experiences with trauma, I think it was really helpful. I think writing about this was really a way to release a lot of demons and also to heal a lot of wounds and scars. And the goal was that other people who have experienced similar things can also maybe see themselves in these pages and see,
00:56:50
Speaker
the complex nature of healing and complex nature of what it means to be human. So I think like, it was a really sort of therapeutic experience for me. It was really tough at times to write this book. There were like questions about like my own identity and my own experiences growing up that I had to really sort of confront, you know, experiences of like different forms of abuse and, you know, drug and alcohol.
00:57:18
Speaker
experience and also like that for my own family or friends. So it was really challenging. And it was something that, you know, writing is already writing a book is already a really tough process, right? It's really isolative. And it's sort of put you in this emotional roller coaster. But I think like, writing this type of book, just really magnified everything to an extent that I can't really explain. And I'm really grateful I was able to finish it.
00:57:46
Speaker
And with respect to the writing of the book too, how did you go about setting up a writing practice and writing discipline so you were able to get the pages done, you needed to get done? And I get into that groove and that flow state that is so important to finishing a book.
00:58:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's so important, you know, like, I before this book, I never wrote a book before, you know, and as a New York Times writer, I was so used to writing like, you know, a 1500 word story or a 2000 word story. And like, you know, writing an 80,000 word book is not comparable to writing a 1500 word story, you know, it's like, such a seemingly daunting task. So I was never really someone who
00:58:32
Speaker
who like to like, you know, create this like structure or like, or like frame my writing before writing a story. Like I just kind of write and, you know, for better or worse, like some people would say that's crazy. Some people would say, yeah, cool.
00:58:44
Speaker
But I really had to change my approach for this book, you know, because like writing an 80,000 word book is not an easy process. And so I really had to think about structure and form and like, you know, sections of the book, you know, like I didn't want to repeat myself in any way. So my goal at one point was to write 1000 words a day. And I think I did that for about six weeks. And I think like after
00:59:12
Speaker
a large chunk I kind of lessened right but at one point I think for about two months like I was writing a thousand words a day and it was really helpful because it was like a goal that I set for myself sometimes I write more
00:59:27
Speaker
But I would wake up really early. I'm an early bird. So I'm naturally about like five or six every single day. And I just start writing sometimes like I just start like I knock out, you know, like 300 400 words, I go exercise, I come back and eat breakfast, and I would write with in flow and rhythm, you know, like I'm, I'm someone who if I don't, if I don't feel that flow that that creative energy, I won't write like I won't force it. So I really just try to like be patient and
00:59:55
Speaker
show that creativity and inspiration flow through me. And I'm really fortunate it happened throughout this book. How have you tried to appease any feelings of overwhelm over the course of the project? How do you keep your focus in such a way where you don't get overwhelmed by the scope of the book so you can get maybe that thousand words done on that day?
01:00:20
Speaker
I don't know, you know, I think like I've had those conversations with like other friends who are authors and writers. And I think like, I'm someone who who doesn't come from a family, you know, like my family are mostly working class people, you know, who come from really impoverished, you know, situation. So I think for me, it was really helpful to know that in the grand scheme of things like what I'm doing, right, like writing a book is is challenging and it's tough.
01:00:49
Speaker
but it's not backbreaking like manual labor. And I think for me, and you know, it was a really helpful reminder that there are people in my family and my community who really have to go out there and work 12 hours a day doing backbreaking stuff, using their bodies and putting their bodies in their minds through things that I would never imagine. And, you know, I think that really helped me write this book, right? Because, you know, writing a book and being a writer and a journalist is like a really privileged experience. And at the end of the day, you know, like I'm,
01:01:18
Speaker
I'm not working 12 hours in a factory and my health isn't jeopardized and I'm just writing the book. That's what I'm doing. What would you say as a journalist, as a writer, even a reporter, what do you feel like you struggle with that you have to constantly find yourself overcoming and maybe working a little bit harder to be proficient on something?
01:01:47
Speaker
I'm great with deadlines. I'm really good with story ideas. I think it's hard to sometimes put down a story and to really just let it go because I think as writers,
01:02:04
Speaker
We can work on a story for one story for the rest of our lives. Like we never think it's done or it's finished. I think for me, you know, that's kind of the hardest part is like learning how to step away from the computer or like keyboard, whatever you use. So for me, that's kind of been the hardest part, you know, like I.
01:02:22
Speaker
as a journalist and as a writer, it's like learning, like when to step away and let go of the story and just like trusting that, you know, the work that you put in and, and the research and the time will speak for
Continuing the Cowboy Legacy and Conclusion
01:02:35
Speaker
itself. So I think that's one of like, it's maybe a fear and it's also a worry and concern I think for me and for a lot of people, right? Is that like, you know, um, once we put something out in the world, like we are completely vulnerable to how the world thinks about us. So for me, like it's like both.
01:02:52
Speaker
letting it go, but also, you know, knowing that once it's out in the world, especially a story, you know, that you are susceptible to criticism and to ridicule and to scorn. And I think for me, it's like, you know, before becoming a New York Times writer, I never really cared about that, right? Like, I never really cared about what people thought about my stories. But I think, you know, being a New York Times writer like comes with
01:03:18
Speaker
a lot of responsibility and pressure. And so, like, I, as soon as the story goes live, for example, you know, I feel incredibly, like, emotional, and incredibly vulnerable. And I don't feel safe, you know, like, I feel like, like, maybe it's like these, like, inner demons, I don't know what it is, but it's like a lot of pressure sometimes. And, you know, I'm sure other people feel that way too, maybe people don't speak about it. But that's how I feel. And so I think it's like,
01:03:48
Speaker
It's hard sometimes to put so much of yourself in these stories and to expose them to the world.
01:03:57
Speaker
And you wrote, too, that you went from being a reporter to someone who was considered part of the group, perhaps the 11th cowboy in the book. And so I wonder now, like, was the book book done about to be launched? Granted, it's in this coronavirus thing. So I'm sure your book tour has been canceled, I'm sure. But it has.
01:04:19
Speaker
Yeah, so in a sense, what's your relationship with the ranch and with Randy and all the guys there, given that the book is officially done and ready to be consumed by the world? We're still friends.
01:04:36
Speaker
And at the ranch as often, um, partly because like I'm really busy doing a lot of life stuff and work stuff. And the Cowboys are also busy too. I think like they've really blown up, you know, like they have a lot of like modeling opportunities now and they're in a lot of different campaigns for brands.
01:04:52
Speaker
But we're close and I consider them family. And I'm here for them in any capacity that I can. And I think they know that and I know that too. And it feels really good because this is something I write about them in ways that can potentially expose them to the world. And I think it's my hope that there's
01:05:18
Speaker
a lot of dignity and like self respect and knowing that that they are human, right? And that a lot of people will like hopefully see themselves in them. And so I think what we're all really, really focused on that part. And yeah, we're all still really good friends. Luckily.
01:05:34
Speaker
Well that's great. Walter, we're up against our time here and I want to be mindful of your day ahead of you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking about your great book. I wish you the best of luck with it. Where can people find you online and get more familiar with your work?
01:05:52
Speaker
Yeah, great. I have a website, wthdz.com. I'm on Twitter and Instagram. You can find me at Walter Thompson Hernandez. You search for me. Yeah, and I'm pretty much there. Thanks a lot, Brandon. You've asked some really great questions.
01:06:10
Speaker
We did it. We made it CNF-ers. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure you're subscribing to the show. Of course, this crazy show is produced by me, Brendan O'Mara. I make the show for you. I hope it made something worth sharing. And if you really dig the show, leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Show notes are at BrendanO'Mara.com.
01:06:30
Speaker
Follow the show on the various social media channels at cnfpodacrossamall. Get that newsletter at my website. Win books, win zines, hang out with your buddy BO. Once a month, no spam, can't beat it. Are we done here? We must. Because if you can do interview, see ya!