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The Joy of GMing w Corey!
19 Plays2 days ago
Welcome to The Joy of GMing, the companion series to Narrative Feats!
This week, Casey Jones sits down with Corey, the mind behind games like Tales of the Undead, Lost in Somerville Shades, and A Veiled Conundrum.
Join us as Corey dives into the inspiration behind his games, his journey as a professional GM, and the art of crafting unforgettable stories. From sparking new ideas to building immersive worlds, this episode is packed with insights for gamers and creators alike!
Don’t miss this conversation—support Corey’s work, connect with him on social media, and join our Discord to keep the discussion going.
Subscribe, leave a comment, and follow us on BluSky, X, and TikTok for more updates. Come play with Casey on Startplaying! And don’t forget to send your questions to [email protected]!
Music by Tabletop Audio
Theme by RJ Pirchinello
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Transcript
Introduction: The Joy of GMing
00:00:34
Speaker
Whether you're at a game table, in your comfiest chair reading a book, or listening at home, there's nothing like a great adventure story. but they don't happen by accident. Welcome to the joy of GMing, a special interview series on the craft of great gaming. There's just something magic about sitting down to a good table with great friends, isn't there? If you're a lifelong gamer or a newbie rolling up your first character sheet, if you're a DM or GM or just can't get enough tabletop talk in your day, this is the show for you.
00:01:08
Speaker
Each episode will bring you amazing guest speakers to talk about writing games and running them, building fantastic worlds and compelling story arcs, and oh so useful, tricks of the trade. Hear
Meet Casey Jones: Storytelling Across Mediums
00:01:20
Speaker
some amazing stories, get inspired for your next game, and join us for an hour and a half or so of lively conversation.
00:01:27
Speaker
This sister series to narrative feats, the tabletop anthology, will be released between episodes of our ongoing serialized show. We cover some making of and behind the scenes tidbits of her latest mod as well, so do stick around. I'm Casey Jones. Over the last dozen years, I've written and produced screenplays, children's animation for TV and film, graphic novels, stage plays, murder mysteries, and award-winning audio adventures.
00:01:54
Speaker
I've also been riding and running tabletop games for over 10 years. Join us as we dive deep into tabletop with experts in the field.
Corey's GM Journey and Tales of the Undead
00:02:03
Speaker
Experts like our special guest today, Corey. Hi, Corey. Hello.
00:02:07
Speaker
That was a lovely intro. Corey writes, and in his own words, makes art and stuff. He's one of many trying to make it as a professional writer. Stories and games are all he thinks about. Corey is also a pro GM on Start Playing, where he's run nearly 200 games. Nice! Corey, welcome to the show.
00:02:29
Speaker
Hello, thank thank you for having me. Very welcome. Always nice to have another GM at the mic. So you're also the creator of the game Tales of the Undead, among others. Can you tell our listeners about that? Well, sure. Tales of the Undead ah didn't have a name until I started running it online this past year, but yeah I ah tried to play D&D a couple times, had a pretty couple harrowing experiences. I just started to run the table instead. and ah Yeah, Tales of the Undead has been the one I've been working on and writing ever since. I've done little side adventures here and there, but as far as like a grand epic campaign, that's the one I've been trying to end for years.
Narrative Craft: Originality and Creativity
00:03:12
Speaker
So you describe yourself as a purveyor of narrative. What exactly does that mean to you? um I just like good stories. I don't really care what package it comes in, movies, books, television, video games, whatever.
00:03:27
Speaker
I just love well-written, well-executed stories that are, you know, trying to be original and creative and not just fall into the, you know, typical trappings. Sure. So among tales of the undead, what are some of your favorite undead to play with? That's a good question. I don't really use zombies too often. I do have a big, lich character that will be coming up soon. but um yeah they're not undead in in the sense that they're zombos or whatever they just died and were brought back to life by this drow by the name of second and uh asked to work in his guild yeah it was all inspired by dark souls i played dark souls for the first time and
00:04:16
Speaker
Among many things I love about that game, the fact that death is a part of the plot, you know, unlike in Zelda or Link never dies. Inerritably, he just dies off screen because you're bad at the game and Dark Souls, you die. Every death is remembered. And yeah, I just really I just really like that idea. And at first it was going to be exactly what you think. The party wakes up, the necromancers evil as heck and wants them to do evil things.
00:04:44
Speaker
But then, yeah, it was just kind of boring when I reread it. So I decided what if the necromancer was actually a good dude and everything developed after that decision. What if the necromancer was a good dude? I think you should put that on a t-shirt before someone else snaps it up. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, the reanimator is just the reanimator is an OK guy when you get past the glowing green fluids and the complete lack of ethics.
00:05:14
Speaker
So far, I'm always prepared for the party to say, uh, no thank you lords that can, we're going to go our own way, but I never do.
Creating Unique Worlds: Lost in Somerville Shades
00:05:23
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that's kind of surprising. Like most often in cales of reanimation, like a good chunk of the time, the, the no longer deceased is not terribly happy.
00:05:36
Speaker
with their creator, and there's a fair bit of pushback, so it's nice to see that your characters are going with the flow. So in addition to Tales of the Undead, you've also built two more worlds lost in Somerville Shades and a veiled conundrum. Man, those are great titles. um Can you tell us a little bit about Lost in Somerville Shades?
00:06:01
Speaker
One of my first and still Friday players in the Tales game, she and a couple of her family members wanted to book me for a one-shot. And they wanted to play as animals. They wanted it to be a higher level adventure. I think at that point, she was like level four or five maybe in Tales. And they kind of wanted us set in modern day. And so I pitched, what if, you know, Goodfellas meets Pixar? And it kind of just blossomed from there.
00:06:30
Speaker
where there they used to work for a crime racket, ran by the top dog, Don Gumbo. And yeah, it's just been a series of one shots. I never thought it would go past the one, but I'll actually be pulling off the fifth one. Not this week, but the next week, I think. Very cool.
One-Shot Adventures: Concepts and Goals
00:06:45
Speaker
I suspect I know the answer, but what do you think keeps you coming back to creating one shot after one shot? I mean, the players want it. They enjoy it. The the one shots, I always You know, at first I kind of went into it with a lot of anxiety because cause I've only ever done the campaign format. And so it's like, what about this possible plot thread? You know, I've got to look out for any possible plot holes. But with the one shot, I realized it's more like a movie. Like who cares? It's Mad Max Fury Road, not the Sopranos, you know? Yeah. Every time they've requested one, I just try to do something you unique. Go over the top. The last one we went to space and fought on a fake moon base.
00:07:27
Speaker
So that was fun. Wonderful. OK, so walk us through how you go about creating a one shot a standalone module. I'm sure our listeners would love to hear about your creative process.
00:07:43
Speaker
Um, it's, it's a lot of pacing around my kitchen in a circle, grabbing snacks and water. As I go, a lot of being worried, my roommate or wife will think I'm a psychopath when I'm muttering things out loud to myself. But usually I start with the concept, you know, with, uh, Watson Somerville shades or lists, they were.
00:08:04
Speaker
higher level characters coming back to their old haunt. And so it's like, well, the baby, there's a crime vacuum. And one of the first things I always try to think of when I'm making an adventure, one shot or otherwise is what is the goal? You know, what what is the player actually expected to do if they want to do anything? So like with lists, Don Gumbo asked for their help because his human owner, Sonny,
00:08:28
Speaker
was missing. And so the whole time, you know, we're looking for Sunny, where it's sunny. And then Twist, it turns out Sunny is just a 16 year old girl out on a date. But they stumbled into this whole conspiracy by Snowball, the cat trying to take over. But yeah, for for you know, any advice I would give is is come up with a goal first. I know a lot of people love open world games, but I find open world games kind of make it hard for me to ever know what I'm supposed to do at any given time.
00:08:58
Speaker
I like ah again to circle back to Dark Souls you know Dark Souls will let you explore up and down Lordran as far as you can go but at some point whenever you're done doing your thing you got to go ring the bells of awakening and progress the game so that's kind of how I try to structure it although unlike Dark Souls you know there can be different routes the party takes or if the party surprises me I'm more than happy to yes and them as long as it makes sense See, that's really interesting to me because I usually take one of two different approaches. If it's four specific PCs, then yes, I will absolutely write a mod where there is a specific task or driving mission for them to accomplish or prevent or a combination of the two. But when I'm just world building, when I'm playing in a sandbox or building a sandbox,
00:09:51
Speaker
I don't go for what it is they're trying to do and instead focus on what is the emotional impact I want this story to have on them.
Emotional Impact and Storytelling Tones
00:10:01
Speaker
Like, what kind of story am I trying to riff on with this with this module? That leads me, and again, like, you know, pacing around the apartment with a magic wand in one hand,
00:10:11
Speaker
and a 20-sided die and the other just pacing back and forth. I too love to ramble quietly about story ingredients of like, okay, well we're working on a desert island and we love the most dangerous game. The island is huge. How do we fit all the ingredients from that kind of man-hunting man narrative?
00:10:33
Speaker
How do we make that fit? And one of the answers that came up rather organically was a giant honking fence. There is something physical, but that leads to new topography, that leads to new goals for them, just like you say. I really enjoy thinking about things from the other end of the creative process of like, well, how do I want them to feel afterwards? And I start playing with the ingredients that I think will help i get them to that desired outcome.
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I have a consistent goal of trying to make my players laugh. I mean, I have a personal need to make everyone laugh as much as possible. Probably a trauma response, but that's, you know, the life I lead. But yeah, as far as emotional goals, I mean, it's up to them for how they feel after a given situation. I try to remain the objective observer. Oh, my players know how much I love a good natural one. I don't care if it's me rolling it or them rolling it. I love critical fails.
00:11:28
Speaker
Oh, they're wonderful. They're absolutely wonderful. I'm a big believer that low rolls can lead to high adventure. And we've started getting more creative with what can go wrong with a natural one or a two. Recently, just as an example, we had a combat session going on.
00:11:48
Speaker
with a living mound and the character in question had a mace that they tried to attack with and rolled a one or a two and I was like okay now the mace is grappled. You can either let go of it or spend the next turn getting it free. How have you found natural ones to shake things up for you this week?
00:12:09
Speaker
It depends on what they're going for. but Most times it'll be like the the butt of a joke or I'll just try to make something funny out of it or some sort of narrative thing to happen as a result. The the one natural one I can think of off the top of my head as one of my Friday players. We were at the gala and um there was a talent show and he was doing something. He's an artificer. I cannot remember what talent he was doing to save my life, but he was doing something and he rolled a nat one. and I was like, sorry, buddy, does it doesn't make me happy to say this, but your pants fall down in front of the whole gala. And that was really funny. He took that one like a champ. I don't know what it says about me as a person that that is immediately what I thought of as well. That is pants just fall down in performance within that one. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Exploring Themes: A Veiled Conundrum
00:13:02
Speaker
think he had heart boxers on he decided it's very funny I mean that's what I would choose honestly so can you tell us a little more about a veiled conundrum what conundrum it is and how it is veiled without hopefully without you know spoiling it for future players well a veiled conundrum is a fun one because you know tales I try not to write too far ahead. I always want my players to feel like they can sag on my zig. So like I don't have the whole thing beat by beat by beat for the next all the way up to level 20.
00:13:37
Speaker
but I do know how it's going to end. I do know the twists we are taking. like I like to tell my players, I don't know what the waters look like. I don't know what waves will hit us, but I know where our island is. Veiled, those same the same player and my other one, who ah whose pants fell in front of the whole gala, they wanted to start doing a more horror themed game. And so we just kind of started that one up. I didn't really have too many story ideas going into it. ah The veil comes from, I don't know if you played Disco Elysium, but um in that game there's a natural phenomena called a pale that has slowly taken over the world. And like any good in humans, most people are ignoring it and focusing on labor unions and stuff. And so that's where the idea for the veil came from, but
00:14:29
Speaker
I mean, that game is literally, it's always sunny in Philadelphia in a spooky town. like They are so kooky and crazy. And people with dirtbags. Devil bots taking over the town. like I think the veiled conundrum is, is the party evil or not? Because they all insist they are not evil, but they've done some pretty questionable things.
00:14:52
Speaker
It sounds like it.
Influences from Video Games
00:14:54
Speaker
It is never a dull time when a party that is comfortable with being destructive decides to set their sights on something not too recently, well not too not too long ago rather, some players running Curse of Strahd trying to get their way through the Durst Manor, the death house, came across a certain item that can or cannot trigger and attack by other creatures in the room. And there are there are suggestions in the guidebooks on what to do if they touch it and what to do if they leave it alone. There are no instructions on what do they do if you if they shoot it with a ballistic pistol. So that required some improvisation at the moment as well. Sure. Oh, man. Tell us, Corey, what do you think is the most important thing that our listeners should know about your games?
00:15:50
Speaker
that I'm very, very passionate about them. I mean, I think about them a lot. You know, I really try to plan out how the scenes look much like if I were just filming it or writing it without three or four players allowed to interrupt me at any time. But, you know, ultimately, it's just about trying to make it as fun as possible for them. And then story is number two.
00:16:16
Speaker
Are horror or scary games in general your favorite genre to play in? That's a good question. I don't really have a favorite genre like that. Tales is probably high fantasy even though there is a train in there. Who doesn't love a train in their fantasy? But there's a lot of narrative gymnastics to explain that train but Yeah, I i love comedies and I like trying to make things funny. But as far as like a theme genre horror, fantasy, sci fi, I like them all pretty equally. Yeah, I think you can get any genre out of any setting personally. That's what I try to do anyway. All my favorite things, merge genre as well. That's just kind of how I've come to think of it. It's really nice, that's really that's really creative. Yeah, no, it's wonderful to hear about different locations that may or may not have certain genre expectations. For tone, like high fantasy, you don't generally expect a lot of horror in your high fantasy. Yeah, it's it's really nice to see that you can explore and experiment
00:17:28
Speaker
with different genres and different settings and locations. That's really smart. So you mentioned in your questionnaire a profound love for fiction and games, and I am sure our listeners would love to hear more about your take on that. I mean, I've been playing video games like my whole life. It started with Sonic the Hedgehog 2, and it's just been going ever since. and um I consider myself lucky because I was starting to like really become aware of storytelling right in the PS2 era when we were getting games like Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 2, inevitably Resident Evil 4, and just all these really inspiring games that, you know, see taught me that
00:18:15
Speaker
you can have your cake and eat it too in terms of writing and gameplay and in games like Shadow of the Colossus actually use the gameplay to tell your story. So ever since then, I've just kind of been locked in this pursuit of well written video games because as much as I love video games, there's not a lot of well written ones out there. So yeah, I You know, I take a lot of influence from video games and into running tabletop RPGs. to To me, they're kind of one in the same. Baldur's Gate III proved that pretty well. What would you say have been some of your biggest influences? Undertale, off the top of my head, that game influenced me a lot when I first played it back in 2016, 17. I was a little late to the party, but that game really, really did a number on me, inspiration-wise.
00:19:07
Speaker
Dark Souls, recently Elden Ring, you know, as all my players can tell you, I'm a big From Software fanboy, and Elden Ring, I just, my God, I was not expecting a game that nearly as creative as that one. Disco Elysium I mentioned earlier, I didn't play that game before writing Tales of the Undead, at least the first big chunk of it, but it has since played a huge impact on my ah um my brain.
00:19:35
Speaker
How exactly would you say it's impacted you? Like, where do you see the fingerprints from that and the other games in your own work? I mean, trying to be as good and funny and interesting as possible. I mean, Disco Elysium is a game where nearly every line of dialogue has the potential to make you laugh out loud or feel completely invisible on the inside. You know, it's a very hoity-toity, high-thinking, introspective game. and Yeah, I just try to, you know, really think about like the finer details of the scene or the situation they're in or the character I'm currently playing, you know. Yeah, love Disco Elysium.
00:20:18
Speaker
Listeners, if there's one game I can recommend it that's Disco Elysium, play it. It's great. I kind of came late to playing a lot of the bigger video games, and some of them not at all. So more of my influences, especially when it comes to horror, tend to be from, you know, not only like 80s and 90s vampire flicks, but the wonderful hammer horror of the 70s. But if I'm being completely honest, I also gotta mention Sweeney Todd, the demon barber of Fleet Street.
Horror and Musical Theater Influences
00:20:53
Speaker
the The original 80s recording of the Sondheim musical is phenomenal. It's absolutely phenomenal. But these the the story is also just a nut punch, even though it sets you up that this is going to be a horror tale. People are going to die in it. But they still managed to pull on those heartstrings and then just punch you right in the gut with them. It's glorious stuff.
00:21:22
Speaker
Yeah, Sweeney Todd's a good one. I never heard the 80s recording, to be fair. I've only ever seen the ah ahlthough it's Tim Burton weird one. yeah I ah wonder what happened to that poor man, because like he makes, you know, he makes Beetlejuice, the two Batman films, which are both fun. He makes Ed Wood, which is probably my favorite film ever. And then he makes Charlie in a Chocolate Factory, Dumbo remake.
00:21:51
Speaker
It's like, what helps? I'm so curious. Alice in Wonderland? Yeah. If people like those movies, awesome. They they kind of scare me for different reasons. Oh, man. Yeah, I have not yet come up with the creepy chocolatier for my my take on the Barovia setting.
00:22:10
Speaker
Um, although perhaps I should come up with something along those lines because now that's, that's making me think about it. Let's have an experiment.
Collaborative Storytelling: Gothic Chocolate Shop
00:22:21
Speaker
Let's, let's play some, let's have some fun. Speaking of collaborative storytelling. So a gothic horror setting.
00:22:30
Speaker
Here's what we'll do. We'll share the reins on this. I will describe the tone that I'm looking to fulfill and I would like you to generate the goal for the characters to accomplish in this story and see where it goes from there. How do you like that?
00:22:46
Speaker
So we have got a frightening gothic horror setting in the old country. And there are villages sparsely peppered throughout a massive ah countryside filled with dark and misty forests.
00:23:03
Speaker
one of the smaller villages has a candy shop and not just any chocolate shop, an unforgettable chocolate shop. So for me, like I love the bittersweet. I, and I'm not just talking about Coco, I love the bittersweet experiences, you know, like the never ending story endings where it's not quite a clean win. You know, there are some horrific memories in there in the mix as well.
00:23:31
Speaker
So, not necessarily human, but there needs to be some kind of, like, secret, forbidden ingredient in the chocolates, and we can go we can go into that. The feeling we want to evince with this story is the terror-filled, I ate what reaction? Maybe the chocolate is cursed.
00:23:53
Speaker
Maybe the chocolatier is cursed. Maybe the kitchen is bigger on the inside and occupies a certain ring of the underworld. Who knows? But Corey, where would you start with the goal in some kind of discovered to be horrific chocolate shop as the focus of the mod? Well, I've been watching a lot of the Sopranos lately. So my head kind of went to that whoever is bringing the party together wants to put this chocolate shop out of business, but wants to learn, you know, what their special ingredient is first, their Krabby Patty recipe, if you will. And then, yeah, you just begin investigating the chocolate house. I think the twist would be its toe fungus. Oh, that's not bad at all. That's not bad at all. Some toe fungus, among us.
00:24:44
Speaker
um kind of candy in there walk and a In a veiled conundrum, I gave them the most horrifying prompt I could think of as our first kind of um sense of conflict for that game, which is your rent is due in three days and you have no gold. I'll do it. That's a strong motivator. Oh, it worked. Yeah, it paid off. As a counter offer, I would say I like the idea of someone being motivated to get our adventurers to investigate, but let's make it a little more personal. As a loved one disappeared, and the last place they mentioned they were going was over to Argh Fargo Bargh's chocolate shop.
00:25:21
Speaker
Like it could be a spouse, it could be a fiance, it could be a precocious child of 12 with rosy cheeks. it's your It's your step kid who you can't stand, but you want to impress them because it gets you in better with your spouse, you know? That does bring in some of the fairy tale elements that sadly went unmentioned, but were definitely desired, especially with, you know, sweets and things.
00:25:48
Speaker
That's really good. Okay, so the stepchild of someone. Let's say it's the town, not the town's Burgomaster, and not the sheriff, but someone important in the town lost their stepchild. And the last place they mentioned they had gone was the chocolate shop. So
Engaging Players through Roleplay
00:26:09
Speaker
our heroes reach the chocolate shop.
00:26:13
Speaker
What do they find in the shop proper? We'll get to the kitchen, but what would you propose they find in the chocolate shop proper? I mean, chocolate, for sure. Some malt in that one of them. Some waif- malted chocolate balls or something? Some wafers, you know, some British man ready to burst in song the second they walk in.
00:26:36
Speaker
Very cool. I'm picturing a cuckoo clock somewhere very high on the walls or very high on one of the shelves. And the cuckoo clock winds up being a key part of it. um was gonna stay Like the icon has to actually witness the chocolates being sold or something. If you rolled well enough perception coming in, you could notice a man.
00:27:00
Speaker
who looks like he's walking with a gate like hey like he has a gout or something making his way towards the pack. And that fits as well because gout is a disease that among other ways is contracted through the excessive consumption of rich foods and also cannibalism.
00:27:23
Speaker
um So that is definitely a clue worth rowing in. See, in my head, it's a little too easy that the the secret ingredient be the missing child, stepchild. step childd so like my first thought from there, or second thought from there technically,
00:27:44
Speaker
would be that the girl or boy has become brainwashed or compelled or charmed some way by masset and they've got smeared chocolate all over their face and lips and now they've been press-ganged into serving in the back to, you know, pour the sugar and stir the cocoa and, you know, caramelize the marshmallows and things like that. What else would you put into the kitchen of such a place?
00:28:13
Speaker
The kitchen, yeah um a mixer, definitely being an egg beater or two. Yeah, I'm not too sure. I'd have to plan it all out beforehand. But as far as the step kid goes, I would try to trick my players into thinking he's brainwash. But in reality, the step kid is just trying to get his act together. He's just he's just I did. He's just such a little turd that it's like impossible for the player to believe that. But no, sure enough.
00:28:42
Speaker
No, no weirdness here. He just got a job. I had too many free samples. That's why they've got chocolate all over my face. Oh, absolutely. No, he. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he's sneaking samples all day and night for sure. But.
00:28:55
Speaker
But then, but then you do have something sketchy that the chocolate tier is up to. Like maybe he's selling vanilla on the side or selling out chocolate can contracts to the local ah count or something like that. But none of it has anything to do with the stepson. He's just trying to get his act together.
00:29:16
Speaker
I dig it. I like that it subverts expectations in ah in a semi-realistic way. That's cool. So, Cory, from your profile on StartPlaying.games, link to everything in the doobly-doo, you made a point of saying that you focus a lot on roleplay, which is right there in the name of the game, RPG. Though, I wanted to ask you, for our listeners' benefit, what do you love so much about the roleplay aspect of a good game?
00:29:43
Speaker
Well, I mean, that's where the story meets the road, right? But part of my problem is as your DMs, I haven't played a lot. I think even now I've maybe played 15, 20 games total. Definitely have not played like one character from level one to five as an example. um So I have a hard time kind of seeing it on the player's end, especially the more and more I run games.
00:30:07
Speaker
Um, but with role play, like that's how I communicate to you, you know, without just jamming exposition down your throat. That's one thing I try to avoid as much as possible. sure Exposition, you know, it's a frenemy, right? Like you need exposition, but God delivering or delivering it can be so bad if it's not done creatively.
00:30:29
Speaker
Oh, sure. And we can talk a little bit about some of our favorite ways to work in exposition. One of the ways I've found is really effective without just feeling like it's spoon-fed is making the exposition into a complaint. If a character, if an NPC storms in in some kind of bad mood, in some kind of storm cloud,
00:30:53
Speaker
and starts griping about the thing that they're upset about. And that thing is the core issue of the day, or at least a major part of it. When you wrap it up in a complaint, it doesn't sound like why you wouldn't ask yourself, why is this person telling me this? I didn't ask them this information. This isn't something that would organically come up in the conversation. So yeah, what are what are some ways you like to put a spoonful of sugar on your exposition? Well, again, I mean,
00:31:22
Speaker
you'll You'll have to forgive me, Casey. Everything I talk about circles back to From Software in one way or the other. um I do a lot of things in the background, a lot of ah details, a lot of investigation checks. Ooh, and you notice that thing. Otherwise, oh, you don't notice that thing. I'll also just kind of place stuff in a room so I know it was there. Like, for instance, my Friday players, they were making their way through this hidden passage in a mountain being led by Hater the Seder.
00:31:52
Speaker
and they came across this they came across this clearing with like a bunch of deities carved into the cave wall and worshippers of said deity or just enjoyers of said deity would write their name and then was here so like Cory was here under a carving of Bahamut and I used that to set up a lot of stuff especially towards my amnesiac character with ah a god she used to worship or whatever but there was also another statue of a cloaked figure holding a single amethyst and none of the party could read Undercommon so they couldn't read what the name was but you know that's there and now when i when i and I call on it later it's like even if you don't remember it your brain did it's like oh what's Cory doing with this amethyst thing and yeah a lot of times i I'll set things up way like I'll plant seeds way before
00:32:52
Speaker
they're ready to be groomed just so it's kind of ruminating in the back of your brain. Sure. I'm trying to think of any time I've just jammed exposition down my players throats. I really try not to do it too often. I usually wait a really good way if if anyone's um looking to me for advice is wait for them to ask the question. I've been blessed in that regard. I have very inquisitive players who want to know everything they can about any given situation when they can think of it.
00:33:21
Speaker
Yeah. And so a lot of the times I'll have it all ready to go, you know, and if they want to know it, it's like, okay, make a history check. Oh yeah, buddy. You know this because you studied here or there or met this person in the tavern everywhere. I've also found it useful if we're doing a mod that is based around a central location. A tour is a great way to give them a bit of info about every place before they decide to really sink their teeth in. I may be using that too much, honestly, now that I think about it, because I've used it in, I want to say at least two games in the first season. But we've had a
00:34:01
Speaker
A gas mining space station, our heroes were invited onto the station by the robots that were in charge of fixing the place and maintaining it.
00:34:13
Speaker
And when they get there, the place is about to have their big ribbon cutting and they're about to open up production and whatnot. But the seat, I want to say the V, the VP of PR, Brandable Smockett is only too happy to give them the guided tour because showing off is part of his raison d'etre. A nice friendly guided tour is also a great way to pepper.
00:34:33
Speaker
the group with some exposition. Actually I actually I just remembered it. We I did a big exposition dump because they went a lot of my parties just now went to the capital city for the gala I was talking about earlier and uh before the gala proper you know they're given a chance to explore around town and and or the big city and whatnot and one of the locations is the uh museum of equality our country's name is equalia And there's a lot of exposition in there just given through like portraits, the little archaeologists they made on the road who setting up the dragon bones. They helped excavate or keep safe, I should say. Yeah, a lot of exposition there. But then, you know, but but then again, circling back to Dark Souls, I will put in all this thought, lore, whatever the hell I could care less if my players know it or care about it.
00:35:25
Speaker
It's kind of like real life. Like a lot of people didn't know that Titanic was based off of a real life event and not just a James Cameron film. And if you want to play a character who doesn't get you know care why this or that is happening in our world, rock and roll. I'm not going to hold it against you. Yeah, no, there's no way to guarantee.
00:35:44
Speaker
your players will necessarily push every button you put in front of them or notice every enchanted rod of so and so. So it's good to have backups in mind or other ways of making sure the information falls in their lap. We never want the lore to get so cumbersome. The characters have to sit through, you know, a history lesson in order to get to the play, to get to the fun of it. Right. I agree.
00:36:16
Speaker
And I admit, I have been guilty of this from time to time. But as a counter, I also try to make sure that the players have some fun things to do, you know, and poke around with and explore and maybe set the occasional thing on fire in Calamity or Mabe's Case. They do like, they are pyromaniacs and they they should be watched.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah, I, yeah you know, I usually just at least within regards to starting a session or game or whatever, I just open them in media res, you know, the story opens the second you take control of your player, kind of how I look at it.
00:36:53
Speaker
That's really nice. The story opens up the the minute they open their mouth. Speaking of opening mouths, you made a point of mentioning a gift for character voices, of which I am a big, big fan. Tell her on tell our listeners what kind of voices do you bring to a table for your NPCs? Um, I mean, I've been obsessed with...
00:37:12
Speaker
voice acting as a thing. I should probably pursue it as a career, but I just don't even know where to begin. But, you know, i like many people, Robin Williams completely stole my imagination as a kid. And ah I just kind of approached sometimes on practice voices, like for our big bad, a very large and imposing polar bear named King Chill. I practice his voice a lot trying to emulate Darkseid from Justice League, but a lot of times i'll just kind of go off the top of my head like talk about the nice neck or manta earlier
00:37:47
Speaker
hello there how you doing i'm second good news and bad news you know or and but la rowe who sounds like this he yeah may i please escort you to the lord author So when you have an NPC, how do you go about finding that character voice?
00:38:05
Speaker
Well, I mean, like I said, sometimes i'll I'll practice beforehand, but usually I come up with an NPC, you know, to fulfill some sort of role and I just don't even think about it until I start. I just let the character voice themselves in most cases. Fair. That's absolutely fair. As long as the character doesn't sound like this, you know, I'm happy with it.
00:38:28
Speaker
Yeah. I might suggest to our audience to keep it simple when you are coming up with characters and PCs for the first time. And when I say keep it simple, I mean focus on one detail, just one thing that sets them ah apart. You can absolutely ignore this and make them as comp complex and strange looking and, you know, they've got purple elbows and a green nose, bifurcated chin and curl top shoes.
00:38:56
Speaker
And, you know, you can throw all but whatever kind of details you want at it. But when you're starting out vocally to create a new character voice, it it it can be helpful to just focus on one speck of it.
00:39:07
Speaker
So yeah, I can, I can definitely get behind that. Like, you know, they run into an urchin in the streets who might be a little higher voiced and maybe just a little bit more energy, you know? You mean like, you mean like Tiny Tom? ah Hello there, sirs. Could I please have a cold? Cough, cough, cough? Exactly. Oh, are you guys looking for the store? My mama runs the store. You know, things like that. Just Make the eyes widen a little bit, because posture and body language and how you carry yourself can really make a difference. Not only in your energy levels, but also in just how the voice sounds. I was talking with a voice actor the other day, walking them through making a goat noise, and the first thing we did was just push your jaw all the way over to one side. And so that's already a bit distorted and go... Because every little change makes a difference. It's another little sprinkle on top of the the vocal sundae, you know? Oh, absolutely. Do you have any tips or pointers you'd like to share with our listeners about finding a character voice or choosing on how you put together a cast of NPCs for one of your modules?
00:40:20
Speaker
Well, in regards to putting together a cast of NPCs, you gotta ask yourself, what characters do you need in that given situation? like What's their role? Exactly. With voices, I kind of like to think of like what their personality is like and then try to let that be their character voice. like Rook Nier, a half-orc beastmaster, kind of talks like this, oh hey Tillywink, do you want some of the devil's lettuce? You know, kind of a laid-back bro, or the beautiful halfling who causes drama across the castle, you know, she might, hey, how are you doing? May I please have a vodka tonic? Hold the tonic. Oh, so she's got that nasal valley girl quality right? I've actually recently I've been watching a lot of bachelor the bachelor franchise with my wife lately and I was reminded of that one voice that Hi, how are you doing? Would you happen to have and scroll up sending? I was just reminded of that voice. So I'm excited to have a character for that one
00:41:22
Speaker
Oh my god, that is definitely a voice we will never hear in Barovia. Oh my goodness. Oh, man. So I wanted to ask if you had any advice for our listeners on building your own game from the ground up. It's a good
Building Game Worlds: Simple to Complex
00:41:37
Speaker
question, uh, because Tails is the only one where I really went hard as far as, I mean, I have an ending, you know, ah a lot of my players and if they're listening, surprise, like, you know, they think they've been playing the game, the real game hasn't even started yet.
00:41:52
Speaker
The game's been playing you this whole time. I mean, pretty much. Yeah, like it's going to get crazy with three A's. Yeah, I would just, you know, start off simple with goals. Like, like I said, the whole tales campaign began with ah my necromancer being a good dude, actually. And then everything from there just kind of began to like, well, how do I facilitate a world that's cool beings with a necromancer bringing someone back to life?
00:42:22
Speaker
And it's like, okay, well, if they're a guild of adventurers and then the king, you know, she recently reclaimed this land like within the past 20 years. So if you're trying to appeal to people who are probably over human kings, you would open up a guild of adventurers that could help save the day whenever and stuff like that. And yeah, it just became like a ah matter of asking questions and answering them before my party could get to it.
00:42:52
Speaker
and then just, you know, figuring out details to make it unique. Or I always try to follow, like, that's that fictional rule set you make for yourself. I try to follow the laws of physics on top of that, where it's like, OK, so people are being brought back to life. My necromancer is a good guy who's not murdering people to create his own army or whatever. Well, then most of the people would either remember their time of death, right? Otherwise you would just suspect the necromancer every time.
00:43:20
Speaker
But then it became a question of, well, how do I make my players special than John Blow NPC? Well, they don't remember their time of death. They remember their backstory, they remember their life, but that moment of dying, they just can't recall it. And of course they're suspicious, they're suspicious of the necromancer, but they meet a couple NPCs on the way who are super friendly and are like, oh yeah, I remember how I died. I got stabbed in the thorax or something. And yeah, just, just a whole lot of world building. Tales of the undead's a little,
00:43:49
Speaker
unique for me because it just grew and grew outside of my control. It is a story that's been demanding to be told since I first started writing it. Outstanding. Yeah, no, I have to ask, how does your necromancer, if they're not, you know, people that like, if they're not all fabled killers and criminals that have been publicly executed, how does your necromancer find these people? He has scouts that are famously hard to reach Uh, a lot of my players would like to else, but they're never at the castle. They're always looking for fresh corpses. You know, he looks for people who's been recently murdered or their life taken away from them. Sure. I don't think second would bring back people who were like officially executed. Um, because one of the contrivance is, is he brings you back to life with, with the, uh, he gives you a year of life back pro bono, no charge asked.
00:44:45
Speaker
And if you'll agree to work for his guild within that year, just to prove you're not a threat to the realm or whatever. he'll restore the rest of your natural lifespan. And of course, you'll be paid and rewarded with magic items and the interim. Oh, that's a really interesting ticking clock. Right, right. And it's cool because I kind of set myself up completely on accident. I was not trying to do this, but I kind of set myself up for both ways because either the parties all blessedly do what they have been, which is accepting second at his word, start working for him, earning gold, magic items. We world build through the various missions or
00:45:20
Speaker
adventures as second likes to call them or they say no thank you second we're out and then they leave the castle and they're like okay well we got to figure out how to not die in a year so it kind of has kind of a good hit hook for whichever direction the party wants to go. 100% agreed. See, I was curious earlier as to why are these reanimated people so chill with their necromancer and it's like, oh, they're kind of obligated to if they want to see more than a year. Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, absolutely. Plus the gold and the magic items.
00:45:54
Speaker
Like the gold players are like, okay, cool. Gold magic items. What now? What's a chest of chance? It's like, Oh yeah. Most of my players are working for seconds. Guild to earn second books, which they can cash and for magic items more than gold. I would say that makes sense. Do you home brew your magic items as well? Yeah, I sure do. From the chest of chance I do. I made up a handful of items for our in fiction store fantasy shack. And then I, um,
00:46:21
Speaker
caved and started allowing in some more D and&D items. Fantasy Shack had a recent merger with Wizards at a Roast that said how I got some D&D items in the store. But anytime I give the the the party like a special magic item from your DM, the bearded man in the sky, I'll homebrew it. Yeah, I love picking up items for him. That's wonderful. That's really nice. I have a shit ton of magic items now.
00:46:48
Speaker
Like, how do you decide how much loot to duel out to your characters in a given mod? probably i don't want to say that shops are the weakest arrow in my quiver i would think I try to give my players plenty of chances to use their gold, but I am bad about refilling because I'm always giving them special items directly from God. I mean, I wasn't strictly referring to filthy filthy lucre. I see. Yeah, it just depends on on where they're at, what situation they're dealing. Most of the times I'll have stuff prepared if they roll well enough to spot it or find it. Other times they'll catch me off guard.
00:47:26
Speaker
And I'll just make something up. But yeah, I have a pretty solid control on how much do you think it at any given time. But I mean, like I said, I was raised on PlayStation Final Fantasy games that let you break them as soon as you know how to. So I'm not worried about players getting super powerful or whatever, as long as no one's stronger than the other one. You know, as long as no one becomes Eric Cartman from the Ninja episode of South Park, I could care less.
00:47:53
Speaker
how often they destroy me with reckless abandon. I just want everyone to get their turn. Save your reckless abandon for the GM NPCs. Yeah, no, it's it's a great point, making sure that, you know, one member of the team does not distinctly out-stat the others. Otherwise, that becomes, you know, the one-PC show with all of these sidekicks, and that's not as fun for anybody. Yeah, that's how my first game was, because ah a fellow wanted to play a homebrew. But my first game was very surreal because I you know I was expecting it to be more Lord of the Rings elves dwarves halflings copyright safe hobbits you know and then they all wanted to play anthropomorphic characters I'm like okay sure and then one guy played like a super homebrew class that was just very absurdly broken um and then as a result the two other players didn't get a turn in combat
00:48:48
Speaker
as much but so I learned my lesson there but yeah I always try to make sure everyone gets a chance to highlight themselves if they want to or if they get prompted every now and then try to leave no person behind exactly one of the things I always strive for when I'm putting together a mod or the next session of a campaign Like, I make sure I check my list of, like, player one can do so-and-so, player two can busy themselves with so-and-so, player three can contribute by doing so-and-so, by leaning on their individual strengths and making sure that they all have something to do, or at least the base outline of things that they can use their hard-won talents and skills on, you know? Oh yeah, for sure. Because with a balanced table, players are going to be coming to it for different things.
00:49:39
Speaker
Someone may be showing up to a table looking forward to a lot of combat while they're partnered with, you know, two or three other people that are really looking forward to the role play, while the fifth person at the table can't wait to start doing investigation checks because they love and they love exploring and poking things with sticks and questions.
00:50:00
Speaker
So yeah, it's always a good idea to make sure you plan ahead, not necessarily have to like write out the whole mod, of course, but like make sure you have an idea of what kinds of things that your players based on their likes and dislikes can look forward to doing in that particular mod.
Campaign Storytelling: Pacing and Tone
00:50:18
Speaker
Yeah, i you know, it's it's funny. i When I go to write a session, I just kind of And I hope this doesn't sound too hoity-toity or whatever, but I just try to give myself to the organity of the storytelling, like what the story wants to be versus what I want it to be.
00:50:35
Speaker
that's That's how a lot of stuff, like all today I've been working on a little side bit that just kind of entered my head. Yeah, I just try to, you know, flesh it out with what makes sense to be there. For this particular party, my my Wednesday party, one of the players is about to get a whole bunch of backstory stuff happen to her in a Half Beach, her hometown.
00:50:57
Speaker
Um, and so it's like, okay, well, what can happen at the side bit for the other two players, you know, kind of set some seeds for their backstory stuff. And, uh, yeah, just kind of go from there. Yeah. It can get a little tricky when I'm running five, six games in the beginning. It's kind of like, um, I'm sure, I don't know if you have, I'm sure your listeners have, but it's kind of like Zelda 64, where.
00:51:21
Speaker
You have the first three baby adventures. Get to get the thing. And then Ganondorf kicks beast of crap out of you. Things are getting a little weird. There's zombies. You have to jump back and forth through time to figure stuff out. That's kind of like how Tails is where you wake up. There's the first, you know, a hook instigating thing between you and second or whatever.
00:51:42
Speaker
And then, yeah, we go on this baby's first adventure. Then we go on the second venture where things get a little weirder. so A lot lot of world building happens the second adventure. They meet a princess for the first time. And then the third adventure is where we meet the creator of the train and learn that he is not interested in taking part in any future wars ah because he blows himself up at the end of that adventure.
00:52:07
Speaker
So now we're at a point where things get weird and, you know, second might not have an adventure for you to go out on. What would you like to do in that kind of situation? So it gets a little muddled to ride it out. But as long as I breathe and take it one beat at a time, it's not too bad. but Yeah, things are starting to get weird before it finally gets the stuff I want to do. Because that's the biggest enemy for any would be campaign writers out there is pacing.
00:52:36
Speaker
figuring out how to pace this whole thing to where it means anything. Because if you do it too soon, it's like, OK, cool, Cory. That was cool, I guess. Or if you do it too long, it's like, so what are we doing? what What's the point here? Where's this all headed towards? It's all about finding that perfect balance. And the last time I did it in real life,
00:52:59
Speaker
I kind of messed up. I kind of went for things a little too fast, got too excited. But now I've learned after the adventure I mentioned where homeboy blows himself up at the end of it, home NPC blows himself up at the end of it, kind of take a breathe, kind of take a breather and let the characters backstories and let the player characters figure out their place in the world before things start going crazy with three A's. Oh, it's gonna get so crazy. I can't wait.
00:53:28
Speaker
Yeah, no, i I cannot overstate the usefulness of the action story quiet drama scene to catch breath and, you know, let the characters rest for a hot moment before you pit them against yet another challenge. And narratively, it's as crucial as is the character's health.
00:53:54
Speaker
because the attention needs that time of rest. And, you know, you don't want just the same note of the story just groaning on for too, too long. Like, you know, comedy is great, but one does eventually get tired of laughing the same way that terror can be gripping, but sooner or later, you know, it just turns into exhaustion.
00:54:19
Speaker
So by breaking it up, by making deliberate choices and putting choices in your character's way so that they do end things on one note and step into another for a bit, I find that incredibly helpful. Hell yeah. Like, we've had a pretty consistent structure. You know, you get get an assignment either from second, his head butler row. Things really change up on the third one, when the king comes to the castle to give you a clandestine
Continuity and Future Storylines
00:54:49
Speaker
assignment. Oh, what's going on there? Oh, a clandestine assignment. But between every adventure, they'll come back to the castle. They'll get paid. They'll get their second book, which is always a fun moment. You know, new magic item. And then there'll be a castle bit. There'll be something going on amongst the NPCs at the castle. The the ah the party, a lot of times will have little things they want to do at the castle, which I found interesting. And yeah, they've they've become really fun.
00:55:15
Speaker
downbeats in between the ah high-flying cities falling into volcanoes, adventures, love the castle boats. Yeah, we use similar plot devices with Anywhere But Now. With few exceptions, most episodes begin with the team on the TARDIS between adventures. So that they've had a chance to reflect on the last thing and, you know, relace their boots and get back it on their feet and so forth. So that, you know, when we do say, oh no, it's time to go, that they're ready to leap into action. But at the same time, at the end of the adventure,
00:55:51
Speaker
the get a chance to decompress back in the TARDIS that they made it safe and sound and either reflect on the day's tragedies and triumphs or to get sucked into something by a sequel hook or a plot hook for their next adventure or a cliffhanger. These are the some of the tools in our toolbox that we can use to not only give our characters a sense of continuity and consistency but also you know give them a little treat.
00:56:20
Speaker
at the end and something to look forward to the next time but yeah and it's been a great great chance to you know castle bits are a great chance to set things up get an idea and and a lot of the characters or the player characters i feel like develop themselves within the safety of the castle because with with very rare exceptions you're not going to go into combat your life's not under threat in the castle so yeah castle bits have been have been really fun and interesting uh Interesting thing to write. I mean, we've gone to underground clubs, the Wayfair, which that that that went awry. I'm trying to take the last big castle bit. Everybody did. Oh, we put on a play. What was it? A Neverwinter? A Neverwinter's Dream, I believe. That's fantastic. So Corey, how can our listeners get in touch with you?
Connecting with Corey and Casey
00:57:09
Speaker
And where can they support you? I have a couple of games. I've got a couple of fresh Tales games scheduled on startplaying.com backslash dungeon husband. All one word. I have a YouTube channel. Startplaying.games listeners. Oh, startplaying.games. Thank you. I got a YouTube channel, Dungeon Husband, but I don't i need to post more things up there. I don't know, I'm kind of thinking about like maybe making another YouTube channel to make re-uploads of MrBeast's content. Cory, I wanted to thank you for being on our show today. It's been a real treat talking with you and hearing about your experiences building your own games. Yeah, thank you for having me, but it was a fun time for sure.
00:57:46
Speaker
And finally, to our listeners, another big thank you for sharing your precious time with us. If you feel it's been well spent, please share the joy of GMing with your friends who are looking to enjoy themselves. And if you'd like me or Cory to run a game for you, you can reach us on startplaying dot.games. And don't forget to join our Discord! Links to everything in the doobly-doo.
00:58:11
Speaker
From all of us, I'm Casey Jones. There's exciting things to come, my friends. I'm glad you're along for the ride. Thanks so much, and have a great day.