Transcript
Speaker: Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
Speaker: I'm Ben Miller.
Speaker: Happy Valentine's Day to all you couples and singles and throuples and whoever else might be tuning in.
Speaker: We have a great Curious Object for you today.
Speaker: But even more than that, this is an advice episode.
Speaker: Advice about what?
Speaker: Well, about that little ring you might get when you're ready to get hitched.
Speaker: And more and more people these days are thinking about alternatives to the traditional big prong set white diamond engagement ring.
Speaker: Instead, a lot of couples are looking into vintage and estate jewelry.
Speaker: It can be more personal, more intimate, environmentally conscious, and a ton of other benefits that we'll talk about.
Speaker: But for a lot of people, it could also be their very first experience wading into the world of antique jewelry.
Speaker: And honestly, that can be overwhelming.
Speaker: There is so much to think about and learn about and worry about.
Speaker: And that's a challenge not just for engagement rings, but for any kind of jewelry.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: I wanted to take Valentine's Day as an opportunity to have a real nuts and bolts conversation about whether and why and how you should shop for a vintage engagement ring.
Speaker: We'll talk about whether you need a ring with precious stones, what the pros and cons are of buying a signed ring, should you buy from an auction house, how do you know whether you can trust a dealer, how do you negotiate prices, and
Speaker: How can you avoid buying a fake?
Speaker: What do you need to do to maintain your ring?
Speaker: And so much more.
Speaker: And to do all that, I knew I needed to talk with my friend and past Curious Objects guest, Matt Imberman.
Speaker: Matt.
Speaker: And his sister Carrie are co-presidents of Kentshire, one of the most respected high-end jewelry galleries in New York.
Speaker: Long ago was actually an antique furniture business, but today they carry everything from Georgian morning rings to sleek art deco pieces to sexy designer jewelry from Tiffany and Cartier and Van Cleef.
Speaker: And Matt is a real connoisseur.
Speaker: He has seen everything under the sun.
Speaker: He knows the ins and outs of the industry.
Speaker: And he's put really deliberate thought into the history and culture and meaning around these pieces.
Speaker: So Matt, welcome back to Curious Objects.
Speaker: Are you ready for some rapid fire questions?
Speaker: I'm ready.
Speaker: What is the oldest object that you personally own?
Speaker: The oldest object that I personally own is... I own some old... I think they're ammonite fossils that were given to me...
Speaker: by my mother when I was younger.
Speaker: And those are probably kicking around somewhere and they're purported to be thousands of years old.
Speaker: But I also think that there's a certain element of, you know, preying upon tourists and encouraging them to go home with something that is potentially made of, you know, very relatively new things.
Speaker: So it could be from the Cretaceous or it could be from the 1970s.
Speaker: Yeah, either way.
Speaker: I mean, maybe 1970s.
Speaker: Yeah, that could go either way.
Speaker: What's the most valuable piece Kentshire has ever handled?
Speaker: The most valuable piece, if we're talking on the jewelry side, because on the furniture side, obviously, we had a blue chip English and continental furniture business.
Speaker: And I think on that side, we sold something for around $2 million on the furniture side, on the jewelry side, rather.
Speaker: We, shortly before COVID, sold a ring for a million dollars.
Speaker: You've been banned from dealing jewelry for reasons I won't speculate about, and you're going to have to pick a new specialty.
Speaker: What's it going to be?
Speaker: Oh, a wallpaper design.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I could happily bankrupt myself with like wallpaper and fabric designs.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I think, yeah, that easily.
Speaker: What movie has the most interesting depiction of material culture or maybe even specifically of jewelry?
Speaker: Well, I don't know about jewelry, but material culture, six degrees of separation.
Speaker: Maybe there's all these touchstones about these kinds of fetish objects that happen in it.
Speaker: And to a certain extent, I guess I can include American Psycho in there because that movie obviously does a pretty strong riff on all of these cultural touchstones.
Speaker: Jewelry maybe not figuring in as discreetly, but I think those two for me...
Speaker: even without jewelry, kind of capture various zeitgeists of the time, probably we're talking power 80s times, of how people were looking at conspicuous consumption, brand names, these sorts of things.
Speaker: What's one misconception that people have about estate jewelry that you'd like to correct?
Speaker: That it's imbued with curses of any kind that are passed down from a previous owner to a later owner?
Speaker: That's not a misconception.
Speaker: I'm pretty sure that's true.
Speaker: What one book should an amateur read to start to understand your field?
Speaker: Oh, gosh.
Speaker: That's a really tough one.
Speaker: I didn't say these were going to be easy.
Speaker: I mean, it's trite to say, and it's not specific to jewelry, but the Duveen biography is kind of, you know, weighs large in our world and hard not to encounter.
Speaker: I feel like that...
Speaker: that's a very interesting way to approach it.
Speaker: And maybe I'm dating myself then by using that.
Speaker: And there's a more of the moment reference.
Speaker: But for me, I think that
Speaker: Well, this is a podcast about antiques, so you're not.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm on brand.
Speaker: I'm on brand.
Speaker: What's a mistake that you regret making and perhaps learn something from?
Speaker: And I don't mean your first marriage.
Speaker: Oh, very funny.
Speaker: Very funny.
Speaker: A mistake.
Speaker: Ever eating any food at a rest stop in New Jersey.
Speaker: No, but more seriously,
Speaker: A mistake was initially when I got into the business, spending more time, not saying I shouldn't have spent the time, but spending more time
Speaker: with my head in the books than with the material itself.
Speaker: And I don't regret learning things.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: I still try to.
Speaker: But really, you know, the way that I think one not just develops their knowledge of this, but develops their eye for what they like is you just have to interact with a lot of stuff.
Speaker: Just look at so many different things, go to sales, go to, you know, galleries, go to see things in a restoration process, all these things.
Speaker: What was the last object or work of art that you saw that gave you shivers?
Speaker: Well, the last place where there was a lot of things that were new to me and that I didn't either look at them in my own stock or, you know, was at the winter show.
Speaker: And there were certainly more than a few items there.
Speaker: You know what?
Speaker: The last thing I saw that took my breath away, which was totally out of my field, is there was a suit of...
Speaker: of armor, I'm guessing worn by a samurai, looked like Edo period in Peter Feiner's stand at the winter show.
Speaker: And it's just not something I know anything about outside of seeing things here or there, but to get to look at it up close and learn more about it, that was certainly very cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh God, I love that piece.
Speaker: We'll be right back with the answers to all your burning questions about engagement rings and buying vintage jewelry.
Speaker: If you want to see pictures of today's Curious Object, which I think you probably do, you can find those at themagazineantiques.com slash podcast.
Speaker: If you have an idea for an episode that you'd like us to do or a topic that we should cover, or if you just want to get in touch, I really enjoy hearing from you.
Speaker: You can email me at CuriousObjectsPodcast at gmail.com or find me on Instagram at Objective Interest.
Speaker: And of course, it is my solemn duty to remind you that it is your duty if you're enjoying this totally ad-free episode to give Curious Objects a very generous five-star rating and maybe even write a review to let other listeners know what you like about it.
Speaker: That is super helpful for us to draw in new listeners, and I personally so appreciate the time you take to do it.
Speaker: Thanks for listening, and let's get back to Matt Imberman.
Speaker: Let's talk about engagement rings.
Speaker: So just to clarify, get it clarity?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: This is very good.
Speaker: This is not a conversation about how many carats the diamond should be or how many months salary you should spend.
Speaker: You can get those conversations in other places.
Speaker: But let's be honest, the traditional engagement ring, you know, a.k.a.
Speaker: a big diamond on a band feels less and less relevant these days.
Speaker: And more couples are looking at alternatives.
Speaker: One of those alternatives is estate or antique pieces.
Speaker: So, Matt, just right off the bat, why do you think it's a good idea to consider a vintage ring instead of a new one?
Speaker: Well, that's a good question and certainly something that we're asked frequently by, you know, people or couples coming through the gallery and kind of, you know, getting the lay of the land themselves.
Speaker: And our feeling is, you know, similar to just the
Speaker: way we position our businesses in general is that buying antique and estate to begin with has a nice impact and that you're not creating something new.
Speaker: These things are here.
Speaker: They're made of inherently good materials.
Speaker: They're lovely things and they stand the test of time.
Speaker: So one doesn't need to constantly create new things and add them into the supply chain.
Speaker: We like that these things are
Speaker: what's the buzzword people use now, upcycled.
Speaker: We've all been told, or not all of us, but a number of us have been told throughout all these years that, yes, you have to get a diamond and look at the five Cs, cut color, clarity, all these things.
Speaker: You have to spend a certain amount or it has to be a prong set thing that just sticks out.
Speaker: And now we're at this point where we're having this discussion that you don't.
Speaker: But one of the drivers of that also is that
Speaker: um for a very long time there was this real um effort and that is still obviously going on to convince everyone that diamonds are so rare rare rare they're so rare right yeah yeah the truth of it being they're really not there can be oversupply or undersupply and the question is always well what's the message that people are getting and so with lab grown diamonds coming into the scene and people seeing that they can get something that
Speaker: For most people, at least with their eyes, they can't really tell the difference.
Speaker: And in some cases, even very trained people can't unless they can look up reports and get lasered numbers onto them and things like that.
Speaker: That it's really affecting the way that people look at diamonds as a whole.
Speaker: When you're buying an old ring, you are, especially now, unless something's been done to it, and we'll probably get down to that later, much more...
Speaker: likely to know that you are getting an actual diamond that is an actual good stone of that period for us we think about that vintage you know already it's you know kind of standing the test of time because you know you're getting real goods in it um yeah then on top of it you have the idea of um
Speaker: For some people, you can get pieces that are signed.
Speaker: And so when you're looking at a collection, if you're going to walk into Tiffany now and you're buying a brand new engagement ring, which people do, and I'm not trying to dissuade them for doing that, but that is not our bailiwick.
Speaker: You're going to pay X amount for something that is costed out based on what each little component costs them, what their brand has to put on top of it.
Speaker: And then that creates this idea that your ring is worth Y amount.
Speaker: In the vintage world, and everyone has different models of how they run their business, but Carrie and I buy what we like.
Speaker: Carrie's my business partner and my sister as well.
Speaker: And we just look at something and the first thing we say before...
Speaker: Is it signed?
Speaker: What are the carat sizes?
Speaker: This or that is, do we just like this?
Speaker: And from there we go backwards.
Speaker: And so I'd like to think that with any vintage collection, it's not always going to be for everybody, but most people can find something that they like that speaks to them from a previous time period.
Speaker: And as a result, I tend to find that most of the rings that we're talking about, these vintage pieces, are also generally made inherently better.
Speaker: Partially because we're talking about a time period where jewelry was still largely made by hand.
Speaker: It was made by people who understood all of the ways to take something from a drawing on through production and
Speaker: having that hand involved in each step of it, having this kind of, for lack of a better term, old master craftsmanship involved in it leads to an extremely well-made product.
Speaker: We've lost a lot of the ability to make things in this way.
Speaker: You see that in the end result.
Speaker: And so as a result,
Speaker: While we might have beautiful, you know, Cartier Deco or mid-century rings that I could look at and say, gosh, this is such amazing craftsmanship.
Speaker: To have it made now as well would cost so much money that it explains why when you go into Cartier today, with few exceptions, maybe their hydraulic collection, the products that they're making now aren't really that.
Speaker: successful in terms of what compared to what they used to make.
Speaker: They don't seem as well made.
Speaker: They don't seem as interesting.
Speaker: And they speak to a broader audience.
Speaker: I think when we look at, you know, vintage rings,
Speaker: Not to say there aren't things that weren't done in serial, but again, not nearly on the scale they are now.
Speaker: You don't have global marketing campaigns where you didn't then the way you do now.
Speaker: And so things were more bespoke.
Speaker: They were more interesting.
Speaker: You can feel that you're getting something that not everyone else has and speaks specifically to your style.
Speaker: And that's more of our viewpoint than just going and getting a four-pronged diamond on a band kind of vibe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And by the way, so I think I just used the words vintage and estate and antique and all of that can be a little bit confusing.
Speaker: Can we talk about what those terms actually mean?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And I think this is one of those worlds where ask five dealers get five different answers.
Speaker: I can say from our viewpoint, antique is also a legal definition, something that's over 100 years old.
Speaker: And so that now obviously goes towards into the Art Deco period.
Speaker: And so you'd be talking 1924, right?
Speaker: Um, there are then the ideas of vintage, um, something that is inherently old and you can ascribe a date to it, but it's not over a hundred years old.
Speaker: So if you're looking at retro jewelry, so something from the forties, we would more specifically call it retro than vintage.
Speaker: Cause I think vintage is a catch all term, but as a catch all term goes, we treat vintage as something that is, uh, from an older time period and we can ascribe a date to it.
Speaker: And, uh,
Speaker: with estate, you're looking at things that, you know, you might get a beautiful gold bracelet, gold Italian bracelet.
Speaker: I could look at the bracelet and I can say, well, I can make a case of this being 60s, but I can also make a case for this being 1980s.
Speaker: And without a further ability to ascribe a real date to it, we'll say estate, meaning somebody owned it before.
Speaker: It's an old thing not made yesterday.
Speaker: But, you know, we don't know specifically the time period.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay, great.
Speaker: Well, so for the purposes of today's conversation, we're going to be talking about pieces that fit into all those categories, basically anything that wasn't made yesterday that has some age to it.
Speaker: And there are so many different styles and price points.
Speaker: I mean, we're talking about hundreds of, if not potentially even thousands of years of jewelry history from
Speaker: across the entire planet.
Speaker: I mean, how should someone even start to approach looking for a ring that's going to be right for them and their partner?
Speaker: Well, that is a really good question.
Speaker: And I think that
Speaker: there's not one answer for everyone, but because we're talking about somebody who might already be interested in vintage, I can say that I, I think we're going to rule out the idea that not rule out the idea, but I guess I would ask people to nuance their thinking around it to not first think of the ring as an investment, um, specifically because, uh,
Speaker: things can appreciate they can go up they can go down but an engagement ring is a sentimental gift and it's the true idea of sentiment right it's it's given as a promise of betrothal and um understandably when people are parting with sums of money that for them seem either more than they've ever spent or a considerable amount
Speaker: It's hard to take out of it this idea of, well, what will this be worth?
Speaker: Or is this a good investment?
Speaker: Part of the idea of buying a piece is that it should be specific to you.
Speaker: And it's something that if someone's receiving a ring, they're going to be wearing all the time.
Speaker: And instead of approaching it as this cagey bet of, well, how many carrots or what are the specs or who designed it?
Speaker: All those things can be interesting and can add value to it.
Speaker: But this is physically something that people are going to wear a lot of the time.
Speaker: I mean, there's obviously cases where people say, oh, I don't wear my ring anymore.
Speaker: But more often than not, we find that clients really wear their engagement rings and we see it all the time.
Speaker: And so if that's the case, well, the primary thing you should be looking at is simply, do I like this?
Speaker: Is this something I can imagine wearing every day?
Speaker: Because it's fantastic if it has a five carat D flawless, or if it was made by Tiffany, or if it's made by Cartier.
Speaker: Those could all be interesting aspects of it.
Speaker: But at the end of the day, you have to wear that one to look at it.
Speaker: And what fades over time are the statistics.
Speaker: If you're buying it simply because of the statistics or because...
Speaker: you know oh your friends all expect xyz or somebody else got something or it where it's part of this kind of zeitgeist of like competitive um you know uh ring buying i'm not saying that it's a real thing but that people do tend to clock others um you know engagement rings that like that's probably not going to be long-term very joyful for you yeah yeah yeah
Speaker: And then from there, you can add in variables if you want, based on what your desires and your budget are of.
Speaker: Is it signed?
Speaker: Is it not?
Speaker: Does it have an important stone?
Speaker: Does it not?
Speaker: You know, does it even need to have a diamond, which increasingly we find is not a requirement and something we push people towards is looking outside of, you know, the traditional, even if it's a non-traditional gathering outside of just a diamond based ring.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, okay, there are, I mean, there are so many guides out there already for buying diamonds.
Speaker: And we hear about the five C's and gemology certificates and conflict free stones, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: And, you know, it can almost be formulaic, you know, for X dollars, you got Y combination of attributes, but.
Speaker: Yes, we can go to Blue Nile and figure all that out.
Speaker: Not a plug for Blue Nile.
Speaker: No, we'll do that on a different episode.
Speaker: But it's a lot more complicated when it comes to buying a vintage piece.
Speaker: And, you know, as you've already alluded to, it's not always about the quote unquote value of this tone.
Speaker: So I want to talk about some of the attributes that you might want to look for.
Speaker: And we've actually got a great example, I think, to help illustrate that, which is today's curious object.
Speaker: And this is a ring that
Speaker: from the 1930s that Kentschire sold as an engagement ring.
Speaker: And it's set with a large diamond and a large sapphire and then some smaller diamonds and sapphires.
Speaker: But it's a really interesting design and definitely not a conventional engagement ring design.
Speaker: So could you tell me a bit more about that ring, Matt?
Speaker: Yeah, certainly.
Speaker: So that ring was designed for Boisvin by Juliette Moutard, who came in slightly after Suzanne Belperon left to go on her own way to do Harris Belperon.
Speaker: And what you see in terms of design there is obviously like strong machine age influence.
Speaker: We're looking at a lot of the kind of...
Speaker: other aspects of Art Deco that go kind of towards art modern.
Speaker: You're not looking at this kind of chinoiserie, Japanese offshoot of Art Deco.
Speaker: You're not looking at necessarily things that are, you know, using platinum to try to create lace-like patterns that kind of hang over of Edwardian.
Speaker: You're looking at like strong, gutsy machine-age design.
Speaker: And to begin with, I think what's interesting to us about the piece is when people think of engagement rings, they often think of these more delicate things.
Speaker: It's, it's, um, you know, something that, that feels daintier that, um, specifically evokes some kind of, um, feeling of, of like femininity of your, uh, or, or a specific, a specific time period.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: with this, it's not making apologies for itself.
Speaker: It's not trying to be that.
Speaker: It's a great gutsy ring.
Speaker: And I think a ring that most people wouldn't think of as an engagement ring.
Speaker: We sold it to a client and friend of ours who, you know,
Speaker: She has very interesting tastes and looks at things not as just, oh, it has to be this kind of thing, but tries to figure out what does she like.
Speaker: And so for us, that was the starting point is when she was looking for rings, looked at it and just said, I just think this would make a fantastic engagement ring.
Speaker: And that for us is the spark of joy there when the client looks at it and says, I really could imagine wearing this all the time.
Speaker: yeah but i also like that viewpoint that again you've got a link to something that for the woman who's buying it that that could be an interesting component it could be that oh isn't it so great that we're looking at something that isn't just some guy locked away you know in an accounting office figuring out well if the diamond cost us x the ring is going to cost us y but this is a piece that was designed specifically by a jewelry designer somebody who just looked at
Speaker: how do I make this beautiful?
Speaker: How do I make this appealing and interesting?
Speaker: And at that time, those stones, yes, would have been valuable, but that's not what's driving the price and rarity of the ring.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I want to talk about the stones because it is a large sapphire and a large diamond and some other stones.
Speaker: But as you say, if this ring had been designed with semi-precious stones instead of precious stones, it still would have had that strong, appealing design.
Speaker: But, you know, when you're shopping for, let's call it a vintage engagement ring, you know, you are going to be looking at pieces that have stones in them.
Speaker: I mean, not necessarily, but you might want a piece that has stone, you know, precious stones in it.
Speaker: How should you be thinking about the value of those stones?
Speaker: That is a great question.
Speaker: And I'm going to back into it in a sort of funny way.
Speaker: which is to say, I think that when people are buying something that has specific commodities in it, even if it's an historic piece and buy someone famous, they still think of it in terms of, well, but the diamond alone, what would the diamond be worth?
Speaker: And those numbers can be important, but it's the same way where I might have a beautiful, very rare Van Cleef gold necklace.
Speaker: And somebody will ask me, what does it weigh?
Speaker: And I always say, well, it sort of doesn't matter because you're not going to melt this down for scrap.
Speaker: And in the same way, and looking at the rings, you're not going to break out the stone to get your money out of it.
Speaker: You're buying the whole thing.
Speaker: And people do not factor into this, that when we buy these things that ostensibly make us happy, you get something out of owning them.
Speaker: They bought it because they liked it ostensibly, and they want to continue wearing it, and it brings them happiness when they're alive.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And this is a drum that I'm constantly beating about antiques in general is they, I could talk about this with furniture, anything that, that we, we've made everything, you know, kind of boiled down to like, well, will I, if I need to sell it, will I make money on it or will I get my money out?
Speaker: And I always say, well, if buying this piece means that you're really risking something financially in other areas, then please do not buy it because that is not, I believe the way that one lives their life is.
Speaker: you know, particularly well in terms of, you know, sound financial planning.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But if we're talking about, yeah, if we're talking about discretionary purchases that are ostensibly meant to bring you happiness and you've already decided that you want something that speaks to you personally, that isn't a mass market ring that everyone else might have, that has, you know, inherent rarity and beauty and, you
Speaker: Then I think that to look at it from this crass way of like, well, is it worth it?
Speaker: Discounts part of the reason that you surround yourself with beauty and interesting objects to begin with, which is they enrich your life.
Speaker: There are certain obvious things about, you know, specifically vintage rings and stones that we're going to talk about that I think are good to know as, you know, for the layperson coming in.
Speaker: um the first being that a lot of people even if they're interested in looking at vintage pieces they've still had drilled into their head the engagement ring you know pecking order of well what's the quality of the stone what's you know do you have a gia report we had this recently with a deco ring we sold and we had to explain which we're happy to do we want to educate people that to begin with if you're
Speaker: Getting a cert on an old stone, the GIA, which is still the larger in the US body that is going to authenticate the stones, they're harder on old stones to begin with.
Speaker: That's a number of reasons, partially because one old stones were not cut the same way as you're looking at modern brilliant cuts or stones cut with much more advanced tools and technology now as they were there.
Speaker: So there's irregularities in them.
Speaker: If you're looking at old miners and old euros, they're not going to be this, you know, not to say there aren't examples of it, but they're not going to be this perfect commoditized stone that the GIA envisions when they grade contemporary stones.
Speaker: If people do want something vintage, they need to get out of the mindset of just I'm buying a commodity because you're buying not just the pieces broken apart, you're buying the entire piece together.
Speaker: And it's a very different idea than what people have been taught about engaged earnings.
Speaker: Yeah, and so maybe along the same lines or similar lines, what about makers, signatures?
Speaker: You know, this ring is, as you mentioned, by René Boivin and by a known designer, and that's great.
Speaker: That's all well and good.
Speaker: But, you know, the farther back you go historically, the more likely it is that a piece is not going to be signed.
Speaker: It's not going to have a Cartier mark or a Tiffany mark or something like that.
Speaker: What are some of the pros and cons of buying a ring that's signed by a name brand jeweler?
Speaker: Well, I will say that we generally, it's not that we don't care if something has a maker, but we primarily care, is it good design?
Speaker: Is it well made?
Speaker: Does it represent authentically the time period in which it's made?
Speaker: Is it some of its parts?
Speaker: And is it beautiful?
Speaker: Now, if it's signed, can that increase the value?
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And I don't mean that then to say that people should only buy signed things because again, the signature will also move the price.
Speaker: And for somebody who's interested in pre 19th century jewelry, and there were obviously houses of note making jewelry then,
Speaker: But there were so many more small, very skilled jewelry workshops making pieces, bespoke pieces for specific well-heeled clients or for a rising middle to upper middle class that was coming about in the end of the 19th century, all these things.
Speaker: And if you're going to say, well, I'm only going to buy signed pieces, you're going to really limit the scope of what you could get.
Speaker: But also the signed pieces in that period don't mean, oh, this is better than, and I would argue the same for the majority of 20th century jewelry.
Speaker: are not better than the unsigned pieces.
Speaker: They have a signature of a jeweler.
Speaker: Now, could I say that some of the best pieces made were by some of the major houses?
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: But we've had through our collection the most incredible pieces that do not have a signature.
Speaker: It always makes me wonder why.
Speaker: I think even if they weren't designing for a Boucheron, a Cartier, what have you, how somebody didn't
Speaker: make this piece and then think, gosh, this is so wonderful, just like an artist, I'm going to sign my name.
Speaker: That does confuse me.
Speaker: But I'll start off in my long-winded way of saying that I don't think that people should focus just on signed pieces.
Speaker: Because again, you're cutting out huge numbers of pieces from every time period that are incredibly beautiful and merit people admiring them.
Speaker: So I think one thing that might turn people away from this whole idea is that jewelry, let's be honest, it's a really intimidating and complicated business.
Speaker: And I want to try to pull back the curtain a little and talk about some of the nuts and bolts of how to actually shop for a piece like this.
Speaker: So...
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Speaker: Just first of all, I mean, where should you actually start looking?
Speaker: Should you just be, you know, doom scrolling Instagram or?
Speaker: Oh, no, you should start at kenshire.com, of course.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I would say that
Speaker: You know, obviously there's a lot more information online around this now, and there's so many different kinds of dealers.
Speaker: And it depends what one's prioritizing.
Speaker: You know, if somebody wants a look of an old piece, but they don't need it to be inherently old, then that already means that they can look at a variety of different sources and they have more to look at.
Speaker: If we're talking about somebody buying, you know, an inherently old and, you know,
Speaker: period ring, then I think, and somebody comes in with no knowledge about it, then the education around it's key.
Speaker: And I think part of that is going into galleries and seeing things in person.
Speaker: I think that Instagram is a wonderful tool.
Speaker: Obviously, it's something that we use for our business and something that personally I use.
Speaker: again you're just looking at a picture and you don't similar to how people say like oh instagram isn't real life well it's also not real jewelry uh the number of times where i've seen a video of something and thought gosh that's so beautiful and then i've gone to look at it in person and thought that thing uh it's it's similar to how and i'm sure you've had this experience and maybe your viewers have you get an auction catalog from one of the big houses and i think oh god i could buy half of this sale
Speaker: And I go look in person and I'm like, that diamond is a.k.a.
Speaker: a piece of chewed up gum.
Speaker: And so so I'd say you have to go see this stuff in person, partially because something that looks great on Instagram, it may be beautiful in real life, but it may not be for you.
Speaker: It may not be the scale you imagine.
Speaker: It might not fit the way you want.
Speaker: And that's where and I like to use the word intimidating.
Speaker: That's where I think.
Speaker: dealers differentiate themselves and where I, when people ask me if I have friends, I say, you can absolutely come into us.
Speaker: Again, we don't carry traditional engagement rings.
Speaker: We might have the odd one here or there because we think it's an interesting example and we just think it's a nice ring, but we're not buying rings just for the idea of betrothal.
Speaker: But I can point them to colleagues of mine and say, you should go here and you should look at this because I know that when they go in, they'll have an experience where they don't feel like they can't try things on.
Speaker: And at the end of the day, if you're going to be wearing this on your hand for a long time, but you
Speaker: the place where you're shopping feels like something where you can't test out a bunch of things and you can't look, then it's not the right place.
Speaker: And then I would argue that dealers doing themselves a disservice, which is why I think that auction houses are pretty challenging.
Speaker: I don't mean to pick on them, but you really, while you could go to a sale and preview things, there's a high barrier to entry for all of those things for the lay person in the public.
Speaker: Similarly with, there's a tremendous number of Instagram dealers, a number of which are great dealers and have beautiful things.
Speaker: And I'm not at all picking on people who are selling on Instagram.
Speaker: I think it's been a really interesting change in our field and I really value what's happening there.
Speaker: But again, if you're buying from somebody who says, no, you have to buy this, I don't take it back.
Speaker: If I do, it's credit.
Speaker: Well, if that's your comfort level, great.
Speaker: But I would, for me at least, and the way we buy our jewelry, I want to be able to look at it and see it in person and turn it around and see if it suits me.
Speaker: And I think that that should be part of it, too.
Speaker: So so obviously, depending on where someone is, that changes the situation, because in New York, where we are, we have a lot of different places to go to.
Speaker: And if you are in a place that's more remote or there is not a great number of dealers in that area, it might be more challenging.
Speaker: But I still think it's worth the effort to see.
Speaker: So if you are going to dealers and looking at their inventory and considering a purchase, that sticker price is one thing, but the amount that you actually pay to purchase it could be another because it is a business that's full of negotiation.
Speaker: And that's another element that I think can be really intimidating and maybe off-putting for people who aren't
Speaker: in it, who aren't accustomed to it.
Speaker: But what would you say to somebody who hasn't done that before about, you know, how should you think about negotiating?
Speaker: There's this idea of how am I being swindled or that I've been told that I could be swindled or I've been told I should ask for a price.
Speaker: And there's all these things that come up and there's use cases and real reasons why.
Speaker: But I always think of, well, those apply to depending on where you're going.
Speaker: And so should someone be going into a dealer they don't know that is not a very well-known dealer?
Speaker: Let's use an example here.
Speaker: There are wonderful dealers on 47th Street who have great things of historical merit.
Speaker: And then there are people who are outright crooks, right?
Speaker: This is, of course, the infamous diamond district.
Speaker: Knowing which is which is very challenging.
Speaker: And it's the same way when people talk about used cars.
Speaker: Oh, well, the guy sold me a lemon.
Speaker: Well, at the end of the day, what you want to do is find a dealer who's got a track record, who's been around, who is known in their field, and who has specific policies in place to insulate you.
Speaker: Meaning, as opposed to an auction house or some people who sell online or some 40-something dealers, I'm married to every piece I sell and every piece that we sell for the rest of our lives.
Speaker: Our clients expect us to be able to repair it for them.
Speaker: If something happens to the stone, to bring it back.
Speaker: If we got something wrong and it's not what we say it is and they bring it back, we're going to give them their money back.
Speaker: All of these things that let people know that we're people of integrity and that we want them to be happy and that they have recourse for us to help them should something happen.
Speaker: And I say those things are important because...
Speaker: If you buy something from somebody and they say, well, no, everything's final sale.
Speaker: And then you discover, well, something was wrong with it.
Speaker: Or for instance, they bought a diamond ring and it's got six stones in it and five of them are real.
Speaker: But one of them at some point fell out and somebody replaced it with a CZ, cubic sarkonia or moissanite or something.
Speaker: And I bring it back to the deal and the deal says, well, you bought it for me like that.
Speaker: And believe me, this weirdly happens.
Speaker: And I'm always surprised that these places stay in business.
Speaker: Well, you want to do business with a place that has a track record of servicing their clients.
Speaker: They've stayed in business a while.
Speaker: And part of how you stay in business a long time is by being people of your word, of wanting to make people feel comfortable and wanting to demystify the process.
Speaker: So I would say...
Speaker: It's no mystery that if you're buying something from somebody, they need to make money.
Speaker: That's how they keep their business open.
Speaker: And I only say that not to be pedantic, but because I think there's this feeling sometimes of people coming in and it's like, how do I have a transaction whereby they make the least amount possible?
Speaker: In the same way you want to be able to part with your money and get the object you want and have it be nice, everybody wants a happy and nice transaction.
Speaker: So when it comes to bargaining, we always say,
Speaker: you know, you catch more flies with honey.
Speaker: We absolutely entertain, offer some people.
Speaker: We recognize that people see value where they see it and they have a lot of options.
Speaker: And so we make every effort to try to have a client go home with a piece of ours.
Speaker: That includes sometimes offering an incentive without them asking if they're having, if they're maybe on the fence about it, they'll make us an offer and we'll say either, yes, we can do that or no, maybe we can find a number we both like.
Speaker: But we think of the old maxim of these kinds of situations as a fair deal is when both parties are happy or both parties are unhappy.
Speaker: And so for us, we look for the failed deal when both parties are happy.
Speaker: That happiness is somebody likes a ring.
Speaker: They don't like the price.
Speaker: We want to sell a ring.
Speaker: And we say we can take less.
Speaker: Everyone agrees.
Speaker: And they're fine.
Speaker: The unhappy part is where we say, I'm sorry, we can't sell it at that price, as does happen more frequently than people want to think.
Speaker: And the other person who wanted the ring walks away unhappy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Beyond finding a dealer that you can trust, do you have any other specific advice for avoiding that dreaded fate of buying something fake?
Speaker: The dreaded fate of buying something fake.
Speaker: Well, that's a more challenging thing because part of working with someone you trust is, and every dealer
Speaker: Every dealer who's been in this business, and I can't say every, but I would say the vast majority, everyone has made a mistake at some point.
Speaker: Everyone's bought a ring that they were sure was inherently 1880s.
Speaker: And then when they started to loop it again, maybe something had been changed or it was a button conversion or there was a little round brilliant that snuck in or what have you.
Speaker: if they're not willing to accommodate you and make you happy based around that and, you know, to service you after sale, I would say that's a reason for pause.
Speaker: You want to know that, you know, again, we're talking about a world that is not scientific in the way that, you know, other areas are.
Speaker: But it's similar to if you bought –
Speaker: a painting from a dealer and it was meant to be by Degas and then it was discovered it was not, you'd want to buy that from a dealer who had recourse to go back to and say, hey, I think you made a mistake here and then say, you're right.
Speaker: Let me make you whole here.
Speaker: That's an important thing.
Speaker: So that's the beginning part of it.
Speaker: The other part is if you're going to be casting a farther net and looking into areas where it's maybe somebody who has a smaller business, is just online and newer to this and you have concerns, the best way is to educate yourself.
Speaker: To know what you're looking at, it doesn't mean you have to be a gemological expert, but to understand, you know, what are the common things that could be done.
Speaker: And that's a very challenging way to approach it.
Speaker: I think more realistically is to be upfront ahead of time when you buy something and ask for the protection that you need.
Speaker: So if you're unsure to say to somebody, you know, I want to buy this ring, but I want to show it to somebody afterwards and have it looked at, you know, somebody who is capable of authenticating this.
Speaker: Not, you know, we've had an instance where we sold an antique piece and the client wanted to get it appraised and brought it into like a mall appraiser.
Speaker: And the person had no idea what they were looking at.
Speaker: And they called us up in a panic.
Speaker: And we said, hold on a second.
Speaker: We will pay to have this appraised by a proper appraiser so you can see what this is.
Speaker: And then their mind was put at rest.
Speaker: But there are these areas of recourse.
Speaker: And we say, if you're really worried about that because you're worried about who you're dealing with, and that's what it comes down to, is that you're worried about who you're dealing with.
Speaker: If that's the case, then you want to say, look, could I have this independently verified?
Speaker: We sold during recently and the client said, I really want to know what this done is.
Speaker: It's important to me.
Speaker: And we said, for us, this ring, the price of it is not because of the cut color clarity of the diamond.
Speaker: That's not what's driving it.
Speaker: It's an historic piece.
Speaker: It's important.
Speaker: But we absolutely are happy, if you want to pay, to have it certified by GIA.
Speaker: Let's talk just quickly about a few straightforward practical questions that people might have around buying vintage estate antique jewelry and engagement rings in particular.
Speaker: How often can you resize an old ring?
Speaker: You can often resize old rings and I would say that an important misconception to clear up is most of the time it's not going to affect the value of it at all.
Speaker: And I say most of the time because if you're sizing something that has marks in a specific place, like it has French marks or it has a maker's point song or it's got a signature and the jeweler either because of the piece itself or because of their inability can't resize the ring without cutting out the marks, then yes, that could affect it.
Speaker: And we've had pieces where a client
Speaker: brings a ring to us and we know that because of that model it's a van cleef ring we've seen it before but it's been resized and the marks are gone so that is one use case where i'd say you know you want to go slowly and either work with a very skilled jeweler to see if it's possible
Speaker: or not, but people will look at rings and say, oh, I don't want to resize, it's going to lose value.
Speaker: Not the case.
Speaker: Most of these rings were resized in their lifetime, and if they weren't, the jeweler making them never thought, how dare you resize my ring, now you should throw it.
Speaker: It's not the case.
Speaker: So these things are meant to be resized.
Speaker: Now, what's more challenging is to say, how much can something be resized?
Speaker: There are obvious rings that we could never resize because of the way they're designed.
Speaker: They have, you know, the mount is designed in such a way, and the back of the band that
Speaker: to resize them would alter the design of the ring overall.
Speaker: It wouldn't have the integrity it has.
Speaker: It wouldn't look the same way.
Speaker: It wouldn't, it would just wouldn't cease to not work as a ring in the same way.
Speaker: And so that's, those are the more rare use cases.
Speaker: What about maintenance?
Speaker: What kind of upkeep and maintenance do these pieces require?
Speaker: So one tip is you want to, if you have a stone, a ring with a stone, whether diamond or not, that features a prong set, you know, exposed stone, you want to have that checked out.
Speaker: You know,
Speaker: I think some people say, oh, I have it every six months.
Speaker: I would say if you can get it done once a year, that would be a good thing, because I've had examples of people never looking at.
Speaker: The prongs wear down, they get bent, and it's an easy way to lose a stone, regardless of how hard the diamond is, it can fall out.
Speaker: So just like if you owned a vintage watch or a vintage car,
Speaker: you would bring these things in to get overhauled.
Speaker: They're working in good maintenance.
Speaker: If you're buying something that's vintage, you also want to have the same attitude.
Speaker: I'm buying something that's old.
Speaker: I expect it to require some care within its lifetime.
Speaker: You want to have them looked at.
Speaker: And there's a reason, again, to work with a good dealer.
Speaker: And I mean dealer here.
Speaker: This is why I will be hard on auction houses and certain kinds of business models that are online only and don't have, they're not involved in anything past selling you the ring is because
Speaker: something goes wrong, you want to know that you can have that fixed.
Speaker: And the majority of these pieces, if they're vintage, require a different kind of skill set than you're going to find on any kind of jeweler just on the block.
Speaker: Now, yes, if it's a simple fix that somebody who's trained in, you know, jewelry repair can do with a laser, great, but that's not always the case.
Speaker: So most dealers and galleries worth their salt have access to the kinds of tradespeople that don't work with the public.
Speaker: They're not out there with their shingle hung up saying jewelry repair.
Speaker: They're working in a specialized field dealing with a number of dealers and retail shops that work just on vintage pieces.
Speaker: And so when you're buying something from a reputable dealer, you're also buying, generally I'd hope, with that
Speaker: you know, all of the ability to have things fixed and repaired as need be, which is important.
Speaker: And rings get the most wear out of anything that we have because they're on our hands.
Speaker: And the number of times I've had, you know, we've had clients come up to us and say like, something happened to my ring and I can see that like their puppy was chewing on their finger or they wore it to the gym and like a kettlebell compressed the back.
Speaker: You know, simple things.
Speaker: Take your rings off if you're doing something that risks the ring being damaged.
Speaker: And not because it couldn't stand up to it, but because do you want to find that?
Speaker: Do you want to do a pressure test?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I would love to just wrap up by asking what happened with this Bois Van ring that you sold.
Speaker: It's happily used as an engagement ring by one of our friends and favorite clients who, you know, just has a real vision for what she wants to do.
Speaker: And, you know, it's wonderful.
Speaker: I love the idea that she wears it happens engagement ring, but also sometimes doesn't wear it, you know, that she has other rings that she wants.
Speaker: Other things come out to play.
Speaker: I think that, you know,
Speaker: to, you did not ask this, but I will say when I first got engaged and I gave my then wife an engagement ring, which obviously being in the business, I put a lot of thought into, I didn't take into account that it really wasn't her thing, not the ring specifically, but the idea of engagement ring.
Speaker: And she said to me, not coming from a background of wanting some kind of engagement ring in this way and her family not having done this, it didn't matter to them, her saying, oh, well, it's so nice, but it's a shame I only wear this while we're engaged.
Speaker: And I thought, ah, I see.
Speaker: And it really opened my eyes towards the idea that we all define what these things mean for each of us.
Speaker: And I would say,
Speaker: the best thing that people can do specifically if they're buying an engagement ring, but just in the process in general is look at what getting engaged means to you and then try to work backwards from those feelings and emotions.
Speaker: And I hope that the feeling and the sentiment overrides the financial aspect of it, both in terms of an investment or what someone's spending to look at them, what speaks to that feeling, what encapsulates that feeling.
Speaker: And then to understand that you are not, sorry for the pun, married to that ring the rest of your life.
Speaker: Well, Matt Emberman, thank you so much for joining me and for sharing your wisdom on every aspect of this process.
Speaker: It's, I think, going to be very helpful.
Speaker: You're very welcome.
Speaker: And, you know, thank you for your patience with my long-winded answers.
Speaker: Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati with social media and web support by Sarah Belata.
Speaker: Sarah Holt is our digital media and editorial associate.
Speaker: Our music is by Trap Rabbit.
Speaker: And I'm Ben Miller.
