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Episode 499: The Post-Book Malaise is Real with Maggie Mertens
2 Playsin 12 hours
"You start to wonder was it all worth it? Or what's the point in trying to do it again? You know, if there's going to be more disappointment in the future. I think it is something that you know probably just changes as you go on, regardless, right? I want to get that second book under my belt so it's not all just on this one, this one baby, you know?" says Maggie Mertens.
Maggie is the author of Better, Faster, Farther: How Running Changed Everything We Know About Women (Algonquin Books). It’s a brilliant book that traces the advancement of women’s athletics through running. Hard as it is to believe, but it was thought that women couldn’t, nay, shouldn’t run farther than 800 meters. Running might affect their fragile constitution, they might even ruin the work place … there’s a name for headlines like that one: They’re called subscription cancellers. [Context: The New York Times ran a podcast headline with its conservative columnist asking “Did Women Ruin the Workplace?” Anyhoo …
Maggie is making the freelance workplace a good time, thank you very much, and it’s a pleasure to get to celebrate her approach to the work and her incredible book that came out in 2024.
So Maggie’s work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, NPR, Sports Illustrated, ESPNw, Creative Nonfiction, among others. She has a Substack called My So Called Feminist Life at maggiemertens.substack.com and she does much of social media-ing on IG @maggiejmertens and you can learn more about her and her work at maggiemertens.com.
So Maggie and I talk about:
- The long book writing process
- Community
- Time pegs
- Strict deadlines for the self
- How she named her chapters in Better Faster Farther
- Taking the wins
- And the post-book malaise
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Personalized Book Offers for the Holidays
00:00:00
Speaker
AC and efforts if you want signed personalized copies of the front runner for the holiday season e email me creative nonfiction podcast at gmail.com and then I will reply with a PayPal invoice and ask you how you want your book personalized it'll be $30 total and that covers media rate shipping while supplies last you know part of you is like is it worth it
00:00:31
Speaker
OACNFers, we're moving headlong, headstrong into the holiday season.
Humorous Take on New Year's Resolutions
00:00:35
Speaker
2025 is almost over, so there's still time to fulfill those New Year's resolutions. Actually, just just give up.
00:00:43
Speaker
Wait for 2026 at this point, B.O. You'll drink less and lose those pesky 20 pounds. I know it. And manifest the career of your dreams next year. I know it.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Feature
00:00:52
Speaker
It's the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to tellers of true tales about the true tales they tell.
00:00:58
Speaker
As they tattle about the tactics of typing... Fuck, I don't know. If I... hu Wow, 499. Who do we have? Kevin, tell me.
00:01:09
Speaker
It's Maggie Mertens. Maggie is the author of Better, Faster, Farther. How Running Changed Everything We Know About Women, Algonquin Books.com. It's a brilliant book that traces the advancement of women's athletics through running.
00:01:22
Speaker
Hard as it is to believe, but it was thought that women couldn't, nay, shouldn't, run farther than 800 meters. Running might affect their fragile constitution.
00:01:33
Speaker
They might even ruin the workplace. There's a name for headlines like that one. I think they're called subscription cancelers. Context, the New York Times ran a podcast headline with its conservative column that is asking, did women ruin the workplace?
00:01:47
Speaker
Anywho, Maggie is making the freelance workplace a good time. Thank you very much. And it's a pleasure to get to celebrate her approach to the work in her incredible book that came out in 2024.
00:01:58
Speaker
Show notes of this
Engaging with the Podcast Online
00:01:59
Speaker
episode more at BrandonMaron.com. Bookmark it so you can browse for hot blogs. Just published a blog called Don't Wish the Miles Away. I tell you, it's just fun to feed your website the best of you, not social media algorithms.
00:02:13
Speaker
And sign up for my two very important newsletters, The Flagship Rage Against the Algorithm and Pitch Club. Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. Also, if you care to support the podcast with a few dollar bills, visit patreon.com slash cnfpod.
Virtual Events and Membership Perks
00:02:26
Speaker
We had a great procrastizum happy half hour with five people, including me, people from Spain, Canada, Nebraska. in New York. It was an international affair and we just hung out, talked about writing, and went on our way.
00:02:42
Speaker
Become a paid member to get access to these and perhaps more structured procrastinzooms down the road. So Maggie's work
Introducing Maggie Mertens and Her Work
00:02:51
Speaker
has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, the Atlantic, NPR, ESPNW, Creative Nonfiction, among others. She has a substack called My So-Called Feminist Life at maggiemertens.substack.com.
00:03:04
Speaker
She does much of her social media-ing on Instagram at Maggie J. Mertens. And you can learn more about her and her work at maggiemertens.com. So in this conversation,
Writing Process and Nike's Race for Women
00:03:15
Speaker
Maggie and I talk about the long book writing process, community, time pegs, strict deadlines for the self, how she named her chapters in better, farther, faster, better, faster, farther.
00:03:28
Speaker
Fuck. and Taking the wins and the post-book malaise. Parting shot on our websites. But for now, i I just suppose we queue up that montage and get on with it, alright?
00:03:40
Speaker
Riff.
00:03:49
Speaker
Tell it to me like you're watching One tiny lowercase lol will fucking sail me through. Editing is about helping the writer think. This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:04:13
Speaker
You know, I think maybe a fun place for us to jump off of Maggie is like when you were ahead of the book event we did that graciously emceed at Elliott Bay Books. And we were talking about ah Faith's attempt at the at the sub for breaking for and everything. And you you wrote a really cool sub stack about it And then you had thoughts about how it was packaged and and everything.
00:04:34
Speaker
And I think it would just be kind of a fun place to jump off of. just It's got women's running. It's got a really sort of empowering goal, but it was it was it didn't really, a yeah it's something wrong. It didn't quite ring right for you about it And that might be a good place for us to just launch into whatever we're going to talk about today.
00:04:51
Speaker
Yeah, ah yeah. so yeah, pretty much the best woman's miler in the world right now. The one who keeps kind of pushing the world record lower and lower. um you know, Nike set up this big,
00:05:03
Speaker
they called it a moonshot race, ah basically an exhibition where, you know, she would run a mile with all these pace setters and try to try to be the first woman to, to run a sub four minute mile.
00:05:18
Speaker
And it was really exciting. Like there were so many exciting things about it just in terms of like, I mean, a having a ton of ah attention on a woman runner who was,
00:05:30
Speaker
doing something cool. And so many people I know watched it. like Even people who aren't like big runner fans or would like they you know because they streamed it as it happened.
00:05:41
Speaker
And it was really exciting. It's kind of like, oh, you can watch a world record in in action. And how how often do you get to do with something like that? you know but
Running and Writing as Team Sports
00:05:50
Speaker
at the same time, it felt a little bit you know like a Nike commercial in its own way, but which, of course, Nike loves to do and is very good at.
00:06:00
Speaker
And, you know, framed it as this thing that felt, you know, that sounded impossible, right? And that, like, it must be impossible for a woman to run a four minute, sub four minute mile, um you know, which in some ways, I think, sort of sets up this idea that like, oh, well, why has it taken so long when, you know, a man first ran a sub four in the nineteen fifty s and So you kind of like end up with this whole women trying to prove themselves as athletes only by achieving the things that men have achieved. Right.
00:06:34
Speaker
um So some of that sometimes bothers me just because it's, you know, it women athletes are amazing for what they do and we don't have to like achieve the same things that men do.
00:06:45
Speaker
And, you know, that like sort of felt like, well, if a woman is going to do this sub four minute mile, like she needs all of this help. Like she needs these like special shoes and special, you know, clothes and a sports bra that's like 3D printed and all of this stuff. And she couldn't possibly do it without them and this cadre of like male ah pace runners.
00:07:08
Speaker
um So that part was a little bit to me also fed into this idea that like, oh, well, a woman would never really be able to do this. This wouldn't be like a real record. She needs all this help just to try to do this thing that, you know, men do all at the time now.
00:07:23
Speaker
Well, it harkens back to even when Roger Bannister broke yeah the four-minute barrier. He needed a lot of pacers to get get him through it, too. So it's, you know, it's, yeah, he you've ah back back then, I guess some people think these things were manufactured. or like, well, yeah, that that was very much manufactured, as as was Faith's attempt. it it doesn't it it It doesn't discredit the achievement that was made, but, it yeah, it sometimes it does take a village to take aim at these records.
00:07:52
Speaker
It really does. And, you know, that's really one of the things that I learned about running while I was um researching this book is that, you know, people think of it as an individual sport, but it's such a team sport in so many ways. and And it really does depend on, you know, who you're running against, you know, who is setting the pace, who is running out front, what's your style, um all of that kind of thing all plays into it because running isn't just like press play and it happens.
00:08:18
Speaker
There's so many other things that, that go into it, which is why like it might seem, i don't know, straightforward or boring to some people, but it's in fact just so complicated.
00:08:29
Speaker
Well, speaking of ah ah the team sport aspect, you know, i often liken, you know, writing and this mess we've gotten ourselves into as the as a kind of team sport too.
00:08:40
Speaker
So in what ways do you see writing and writing community, especially freelance writing as as a team sport? Oh, 100%. ah hundred percent um
00:08:52
Speaker
You know, I think when you when you yeah, when you start right as a freelancer, you do feel really kind of on your own. And you you are right, you're like reaching out to editors, you know, you're just a, you're just a person that you have to like convince them of who you are all of that. But you know, eventually you start to create I mean, it becomes about relationships, right? People always ask me, oh, how do you write for these places? How do you write for the Atlantic or Sports Illustrated or whatnot? and It's because I've made relationships with those editors, right? And those are people that then come back and ask me to do other things after I've done something like pitch them a story 800 times 10 years ago, you know.
00:09:34
Speaker
Then they know, oh, this is something you're interested in. And we know you can you can turn around and do this. And then the other thing is also having other, you know, peers and friends who are interested also freelancers and who can um commiserate and relate. um I have really a really close friend from grad school who is also a freelance writer and a nonfiction book writer. And she and I have just kind of made it our work day is that we check in with each other. you know We check in and we make we see what we're all working on, if we can support each other in any way, that kind of thing. And that's just having someone else to be like, you're not crazy.
00:10:12
Speaker
yes, they should have gotten back to you by now. oh Or like, no, this is actually a good idea and you should send it to someone um is really helpful, right? And i think as I've gotten older and more experienced in this, you know, I've been doing freelance writing now for more than 10 years.
00:10:30
Speaker
I've really come to respect and understand that like, it's not... it's not, it's not about talent, right? It's not about like, just like, who's the best writer gets all these assignments. It's so much about what connections are you making? You know, um what are you going for? Like, what are you like, I, there's so many things I don't even try for because I'm too nervous or don't think it's for me. um And, you know, you don't know.
00:10:57
Speaker
these things until you try and and having that community support is really helpful in terms of people keeping your head on straight and just like knowing that, okay, just because you didn't win some prize or a grant or whatever, it doesn't mean you like you should quit at this point, which is, I think often how we feel.
00:11:15
Speaker
For sure.
Maggie's Writing Journey and Challenges
00:11:16
Speaker
Well, what can you point to as an early win in your writing career? oh Oh, well, I mean, I think you have to have those wins, especially early on, to keep you going, right? Big time, yeah.
00:11:30
Speaker
So I'm thinking about a few different ones. One of the actually really early things that happened was when I was still um in undergrad, i so this was like mid-2000s,
00:11:44
Speaker
Had, um i studied abroad in Italy and I had um like a blog because this was like blog days.
00:11:53
Speaker
And, you know, this was just kind of something I always did was, you know, write online or write in a journal or whatever it was. And I knew I wanted to do this as a, you know, for a living.
00:12:05
Speaker
And really the blog was mostly for like my family back home to know that I was like there. And um someone, an editor at actually like an alternative weekly in San Diego, they kind of at the time were publishing like blogs.
00:12:22
Speaker
but It was one of their things was like, oh we're going to find like blogs of people doing cool writing and publish some of them. And And so they published a few of those from, from my time abroad, which was really fun.
00:12:34
Speaker
And was one of those things like, Oh, I could be a writer. And I got paid like a few hundred dollars. And it was like very exciting because I hadn't even graduated yet. um Then of course I like, graduated into the recession and things were very not easy but were good. um But then later on, I think starting out as a freelancer, my big win was what's placing my first piece with the Atlantic, which was actually all about women's soccer. And, you know, this was kind of the time before the fight for pay equality.
00:13:06
Speaker
And it was sort of a call out of like, we need people to know like how poorly, these women are being paid ahead of the World Cup. And at that time, you know, it was, it was pretty striking. And the NWSL was very, very new, very fledgling. And, ah you know, these women were being paid in some, some places like $12,000 for the season and things like that. And, you know, so it was kind of this call out looking at, at soccer, at women's sports as more of a feminist issue and more of like
00:13:39
Speaker
you know, that this pay gap that we're all concerned about in you know, all of our economy is something that's like happening at an extreme level in women's sports.
00:13:51
Speaker
You said like when you were starting this starting this blog and, you know, you got a sense that this was something you wanted to do, you know, what was that that moment or the the the the impetus? You're like, oh, yeah, i do want to make make a career writing.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah, for me, it was pretty early on. When I was in high school, i joined the school newspaper because I had to fill a class. ah And like it was like some credit I needed. And i was like, sure, I'll do the newspaper.
00:14:23
Speaker
and like the first few things that I wrote, it was so amazing that like I would write something and people would ask me about it. Like people would read it. And then later, you know, i was just like, this is too, this is too cool. Like I, I just loved it. And it was always like, you know, weird stories about like calling out hypocritical, like rules at the school or things like that, you know, speaking truth to power, that kind of stuff.
00:14:51
Speaker
ah And yeah, you know, it really did. it was kind of addictive to be like, oh, this is a thing I can do. I'm not like a organizer or something like that, but like writing as a way of like spreading ideas and pointing things out that are wrong was just like very addictive for me. and um,
00:15:14
Speaker
Yeah, so i knew ah journalism was something I really wanted to at least consider as ah as a career path. And as I kind of ah continued on in college doing school newspaper stuff, that just became like, okay, like this is something that I'm like fairly good at and enjoy. And there is like, I think it felt like a very real career path like okay there's a skill I'm learning it and then I'll get a job to do it like that will be great I will take all these steps and you know of course it didn't really turn out that way but um but that's what I really really loved about it at first
00:15:53
Speaker
you know In this line of work, there are just myriad frustrations, that and they're always like looking for the off-ramps of this freeway we've gotten ourselves on. And I've looked at any number of off-ramps over over the years, and it always pulls me back on.
00:16:10
Speaker
I always get back on the highway. But and so like, you know, just for you, what are some frustrations that you deal with ah as a freelancer? Yeah, that sometimes really wants to pull you off the highway, but you still find yourself in it.
00:16:24
Speaker
ah like Isn't that an everyday? yeah i know. like oh We don't have five hours to talk about it. too so What other career can I have with my skill set?
00:16:36
Speaker
but When can should I go back to school? ah All of those things. Yeah. I mean, i mean, honestly, like the biggest frustration for me right now is the fact that the industry is not.
00:16:50
Speaker
I mean, of course, it's like contracting, but it also has done such a poor job of keeping and maintaining talent, right? Like not just like paying well um for writers, you know, to stories that you know I've had stories on huge national magazine platforms that do really, really well.
00:17:13
Speaker
And I turn around and I cash my $800 check for it. you know And I'm like, I know that this is not a fair trade. right This is not how I should be being treated for this.
00:17:25
Speaker
And I think honestly, like if the general public knew how little freelancers were paid for these kinds of like huge national magazine articles, they would be shocked.
00:17:36
Speaker
Like, this
Financial Dynamics in Freelance Writing
00:17:37
Speaker
is just like, it's so absurd. And it's really like the pay rate for me. um And it hasn't, I mean, i will say in some places it's gotten better um over the past 10 years.
00:17:48
Speaker
And what has really gotten better over the past 10 years is payment, just like actually getting payment and getting payment on time has gotten so much better. And I think because New York passed all these laws that actually,
00:18:03
Speaker
had teeth to them and so then all these publications had to figure out how to actually pay freelancers on time and keep track of it but I will say when I was starting out that was such a huge problem I mean you could have had something that published six months to a year ago and and you were still chasing payment for it and that was like absurd right um but it just goes to show that you know as when journalism and and non-fiction writing became this kind of freelance marketplace, I mean, it was a race to the bottom, right? Like real quick. And it just makes you as the writer feel like totally disposable.
00:18:44
Speaker
Like, okay, well, I'm not doing this for the money. I'm not doing it for the fame and glory, but it is something I believe in. So I guess I'll keep at it. And yeah, so I guess that for me, the the lack of stability, you know, i have, I have two kids, so I am like responsible for, for other humans.
00:19:03
Speaker
And, you know, for now, like my partner has had a good steady job, but you know, there's always that in the back of your head of like, what happens if that goes away?
00:19:16
Speaker
um I don't know whether I'd be able to continue on doing this. I know what you mean. it's ah like my My wife is the breadwinner by far, and she has the health insurance and the steady job.
00:19:29
Speaker
i love I love that you brought that up, and I love bringing it up whenever I can because it's something that's not talked about very often about you know there's often this the the steady paycheck, and that health insurance is what kind of allows us as writers to weather these ups and like big valleys and then, okay, something comes in and it's more like seasoning and in the the household budget.
00:19:52
Speaker
And, uh, in some ways in that regard, it's, uh, it's good to hear. It's just good to hear you talk about that. Cause I, a lot of people just feel so crummy that, uh, like, how is that person doing, doing that? Like, it's like, uh, well, yeah, well, there's some domestic institutional support that allows, allows it that yeah to happen. Most, most, uh, most cases.
00:20:13
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um I try to talk about that too as much as I can because I think it's really important. And I do think you know it's important to look at at marriage as like a business partnership as much as it is an emotional and other another support kind of partnership um because it is, right? Legally, that's kind of what you're getting into. Yeah.
00:20:36
Speaker
And I think for women, often we're kind of like taught like, oh, it's like almost shameful to be like depending on your spouse for something like this um at this point when, you know, like we are also expected to like be career people and all of that.
00:20:51
Speaker
But
Balancing Family and Freelance Work
00:20:52
Speaker
you know it's like it's the system. It's not us. not it's not my It's not my personal failing that this career that I'm in is you know very unstable, but you know that it is worth talking about and and um and not feeling bad about, but but figuring out what it is that you are both bringing or like responsible for.
00:21:14
Speaker
um and I do. i like We often consider my my salary like what I take home. is the extra stuff, right? It's like, and okay, do the kids get to do piano lessons and swim lessons? And do we get to go on vacation this summer? Like, those are the kinds of things where like, he's paying those study bills that happen every month because yeah at income is study and that's what makes sense, right?
00:21:36
Speaker
For sure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so often too with women, such as my understanding, is like a lot of caretaking falls to you. And that could be with children, but it could also be with like aging parents too. And that's just a whole other wrinkle that can just befall, you know, women in general, but especially like freelancing women. It's like, I don't know how anyone gets any work done or anything fulfilling done.
00:22:01
Speaker
i had a friend, i have a friend who's ah a writer, a novelist, and she told me a long time ago, Um, she's like, watch out because if you're the freelancerator of the, of the family, like everything will fall to you because people assume you don't work for real.
00:22:18
Speaker
yeah You don't have a real job. So when your mom is sick, you're the person that has to take care of her and go to the hospital and all of that. And it's so true. Like when I have family in town, I feel so like, okay, well, I guess everyone's expecting me to take care of them and take them around because I don't have a real job.
00:22:35
Speaker
even though I'm like sitting there with 800 things in my to-do list. But um so yeah, that's always an interesting one is is figuring out those, you know, having a flexible job is awesome for those reasons. Like it is great to be able to take the day off and, you know, take your family around or or whatever. but um But at the same time, like you actually do have to have some work in there sometimes.
00:23:00
Speaker
Yeah. Well, how do you impart structure on your day, you know, so you can get those things done and to, yeah, make it feel like, you know, you're able to get some things done around, know, the nooks and crannies of, you know, your dayto day to day?
00:23:14
Speaker
Oh, this is the question ah my life is how to impart structure on my day. um When I When A, like, I do love structure, like, I crave structure, but I also feel really, like, claustrophobic around structure.
00:23:30
Speaker
So I think that's part of why I, like, I never loved having, like, the few times that I did have real jobs and had to go into offices, I hated it. Like, I, it, it drove me crazy to be like, why do I have to do this if, like,
00:23:45
Speaker
I don't have anything on my schedule today or I can finish this work in three hours. Why do I have to sit here for another five? All of that. So yeah for me, it's really been about, i mean, A, I have like an actual office in my house that I can like shut the door and i have to like remind myself on most days to just like leave everything there. Once I do like school drop off, I i just kind of like,
00:24:13
Speaker
leave the breakfast dishes out, don't clean the kitchen, i have to shut the door and like figure out my day first, or just like dive right in. And I'm a big like list maker.
00:24:24
Speaker
I do a lot of like, this is my to do list. These are the things that I'm going to get done today. and it depends like if I have big projects, either big freelance projects, or like when I was working on the book,
00:24:36
Speaker
I'm very like calendar oriented. it was very like, I need to break this all down into whatever it is. If I have a big feature due, you know, when do I have to have the interview done by? Okay, I'll do this.
00:24:47
Speaker
Then I need to find all of my sourcing by this date. that i need to finish the writing by this date, right? So that's often how I'm working, which feels really good to me because it kind of changes all the time and sort of depends on my workload.
00:25:00
Speaker
But having like, I wish I was more organized in terms of like overall workflow and all of that. um The other thing I try to do is um I try to break up my day in terms of like getting a big chunk of stuff done in the morning, then either like taking a break to exercise or to, you know,
00:25:21
Speaker
make myself lunch, something like that. And then like getting back into it for like a little afternoon session. And sometimes that's more like reading and research and stuff like that in the afternoon. I like to do that because yeah, then, then the kids come home and it's really hard to get anything else done.
00:25:38
Speaker
But
Overcoming Interview Anxiety
00:25:39
Speaker
yeah. Is it kind of like the the morning is in terms of your rhythms, that's where you get a lot of maybe your active stuff done. And then in the afternoon is maybe more, yeah, more passive research or passive work.
00:25:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. i i mean, if I have like actual writing that needs to get done, i try to do it in the morning. Often I get really pulled into email. I think email is like the death of all but all creativity.
00:26:12
Speaker
but Yeah, that and social media for sure. yeah Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, I've had to just like, I have to like just not be on social media for the most part. Like it's just really hard for me at this point to get, I think, yeah, because it just pulls you in and you're like, oh, well, I'm working.
00:26:28
Speaker
I'm like building my platform. I need to do this. But yeah, it's been the death of of creativity or like having actual time to sit and write. But giving myself like actual time, like timed sections to like, okay, going write for 20 minutes. I'm going turn my timer on and I'm going take five minute break and I'm going do it again is often how I have to kind of like get that stuff done until I'm in, in the rhythm and in it. And sometimes that means I can come back to it in the afternoon if I'm like mid flow.
00:27:01
Speaker
um But then, you know, with a lot of the freelance work I do, I need to do so many interviews. And it's like scheduling those is always like, okay, well, that's going to interrupt your day. like Like, and it's on them, right? It's like, it's their schedule usually that takes precedence. So I hate that when you're like, you're trying to leave a few voicemails and then, but you don't want to get too deep into anything else because they could call back at any time.
00:27:26
Speaker
yeah and it's just, there's no way to get into that rhythm. Yeah. is got ah Unless you just expect, you're like, okay, I'm giving you, I'm giving these people a three hour window to call me back. and What can I do? That's not going to matter if I get taken out of that. It's, yeah, it's, you're always doing the math like that.
00:27:45
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because it is. And for me, I get really like, I get pretty anxious about interviews, not while I'm doing them, but before they happen, I get a little anxious.
00:27:56
Speaker
So I have to kind of like prep and prep and prep. And then, yeah, if they don't answer, you're like, great. Now what? Now I'm all amped and ready to go. What can I do with this with this energy? um Yeah, it is hard. It is hard. That's often when I turn to email.
00:28:12
Speaker
Yeah. I know. Oh my gosh. I think we're really vibing here because like I have such anxiety around phone calls. Oh God, we're journalists and we have like, isn't that like the basis of the job? Like it sure is. And it sucks.
00:28:27
Speaker
and ah Cold calling. I will put it off. I'll put off a call for days. I mean, if I'm not like on a super deadline, I haven't been on a super deadline for a long time, but If I don't have that extra depth, I will i'll write it down and then i will stew over the call for a long time before I actually just say, like fuck Brendan. like Fuck you.
00:28:49
Speaker
Make the damn call. What's the worst thing that's going to happen? have to have these like halftime pep talks in my head to make a frigging phone call. So stupid. Yes. Yes. No, I think it's, i what's so strange is I do think it's pretty common when some of it is, right, like, actually that's a huge part, like, that's kind of what our work um hinges on is making sure that we can, like, have these interviews and do well and get what we need out of them. And sometimes you only get one shot.
00:29:18
Speaker
And so there is a lot of pressure. But, you know, then... I almost kind of take the like, I just trick my brain into I'm not doing anything. and just like dial the number without like looking. And, ah you know, then once you're on, you're like, oh, I know how to do this.
00:29:34
Speaker
I've been here before. ah For the most part, you know, there's some that don't go so well still, but like that's just part of the job. Yeah. I know, like, if – this is such a weird analogy, but if i if i have to drill wall anchors into my wall, I'm always a bit, like, skittish at first.
00:29:54
Speaker
But then I do, like, five or six them. like, oh, this is pretty easy. and But that's, like, the same thing with cold calling. If if I get one or two done – and most often I go to the voicemail anyway because my number is weird and people are like – And so you're off the hook most of the time.
00:30:09
Speaker
And then you just do like three, four or five. you know, when I was in book research, you know, a dozen a day, almost no one picked up. It's like, oh, this is easy. Just do it. This is the job. I'm doing it. Be up. Be, oh, you're doing it. you're You're an awesome writer. You're an awesome journalist.
00:30:24
Speaker
But if I go a couple of weeks without it, I'm like, how do you drill the hole into the wall again? i don't want to do this and have to spackle over it It's just like anything. It's just repetition. Yeah, no, totally. It is. it is repetition. And it's like you, you do, you, you forget it as soon as you, ah soon as you turn it off for a minute, it's like, oh crap, I don't want to start this again.
00:30:45
Speaker
might yeah
Journey into Book Writing and Success
00:30:46
Speaker
might drill the hole in the wrong spot. Yeah. I'm going to hit some wires. Like, oh
00:30:54
Speaker
shit. So, when did you start getting, you know, ah book ambitions and wanting to, yeah, to take, take up that kind of a project?
00:31:04
Speaker
Yeah, ah well, so the other thing that I did when I was kind of floundering trying to
00:31:14
Speaker
get a job in my post-college career, i ah I ended up going to an MFA program that was an evening program so that I could kind of like still work.
00:31:27
Speaker
But i needed i knew I needed something that would like continue to make me believe like, okay, I can write. I might have something else. And part of that was that I was, I've just always been a big, ah big book person, um a big creative nonfiction person. And so part of like, also the struggle for me in finding a job in journalism was that like, I didn't want to be a newspaper reporter, you know, I wanted to do these like more magaziney or like long form or all weekly style, like things that are, you know, a little bit more conducive to book writing.
00:32:01
Speaker
And so I kind of saw the MFA as like a way to learn that skill or at least like convince myself that I could find an avenue for this, even though like all of the everything else was sort of dying at the time.
00:32:15
Speaker
And so I did that while I was doing kind of a web production job. And um wow during the program, it was two years and I kind of started writing like my first book project, which never got finished or or published.
00:32:31
Speaker
oh but yeah yeah But taught me how to like, think about ah book, right? And think about chapters and think about flow and narrative and all of that. And yeah, I mean, really since then, i was always like, oh, what might I write a book about? And oh when I got pulled into kind of this whole idea of writing about women athletes and all of this inequality, i was like, well, I know there's a book here somewhere.
00:32:57
Speaker
ah um yeah But it took a long time. I mean, it took a long time of of writing about it freelance and then you know i I ended up having an agent reach out to me who really wanted to help me ah come up with a project together. And that was just a godsend because, I mean, as we all know, like just I think the agent process is so backwards and so messed up for like most writers is like, oh, you have to come up with your own idea.
00:33:25
Speaker
and know how to write a book proposal on your own so that an agent thinks it's good enough to sell. Like, no, like that's what an agent does but like make the book proposal and like make sure your idea can sell and all of that kind of stuff. So um I've been really, really lucky in that regard and and especially lucky because she worked with me kind of for years.
00:33:48
Speaker
And as I sort of plugged along in this research of like women athletes and where was this going to go? And, you know, would just kind of send her things every now and then. um and we finally, took, I think it took, let's see, five.
00:34:06
Speaker
I was pregnant with my first kid when we first started working together and he was in kindergarten. He was four when the book sold.
00:34:17
Speaker
Yeah, he was four when the book sold. so It took four and a half, almost five years to just get the idea like together and the book proposal done. And that I think that was like my third or fourth version of the book proposal um that finally sold. And and and then, yeah, another like two years of writing it and all of that.
00:34:37
Speaker
before it came out. So it was something that I just really liked doing. And I know a lot of people like really don't like the book writing process, but I love it. I felt like this is like, what my brain is is good at is this kind of like really big picture, you know, chop it up into little pieces and, you know, dig into every single one.
00:34:58
Speaker
So that's just it was really joyful for me. Nice. Well, yeah, take us to that that process of how yeah just the the mechanics of writing a book really resonated with your taste and your your makeup as ah as a writer. yeah just yeah well As you were leaning into your first book on women in running, i yeah how did yeah how did the the work look like for you, the the whole process?
00:35:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean it was really it was really amazing because ah because I'd been doing the research for so long. I had such a good kind of handle on the context that I wanted um to tell, like, all of this his history that I knew kind of, like, belonged in the book.
00:35:43
Speaker
And it was really about, you know, in those first... kind of weeks with my publisher just sort of like nailing down, okay, these are the narrative elements.
00:35:54
Speaker
These are the the dates and the the moments that we're going to zoom in on. And this is the way that it you know the the story is going to be told and lay out. And it really felt fell together in that way. like The organization of it felt really natural, probably just because I'd spent so much time in it in the topic.
00:36:13
Speaker
And then you know for me too, i I'm like very almost kind of like mathematical about it in terms of like this is what it is going to be in each chapter. like this amount of like history, this amount of story, this amount of like scientific context. And like, these are the, you know, one or two characters that I'm going to follow.
00:36:32
Speaker
um And so I really had like a like a, ah a bulletin board of, of index cards that were very like color coded. Like these are each section for each chapter.
00:36:45
Speaker
and this is how I have to go through it. And I also was working on pretty, I mean, a normal deadline, which was like 18 months, but it was pretty firm because i knew I wanted it to come out in the Olympic year ah for the summer. And once i then found out, too, that it was going to be 2024 going to be the forty s anniversary of the first ever women's Olympic marathon. I was like, okay, we need like, this has to come out at this point and writing a women's sports book. Like this is like, I've already been told this is going to be impossible to like sell. So, you know, I need some hooks in this and you know, the Olympics is just one of those times that I knew I needed, it um i knew I needed it to come out then to get like any kind of grip on anyone.
00:37:35
Speaker
So I had really strict deadlines for each for each chapter, um for myself. And um I turned them into my editor kind of on a rolling basis. And and we went from there. But um yeah, it was really, liked that because it felt very like, I knew what I needed to do every day. knew what I needed to do every month.
00:37:59
Speaker
I could do it. um you know And then it was just, I liked the process of it all. It felt very like, good for me and my and my workflow, which is like, you know, like I said earlier, i sometimes I just struggle with like, if you're not sure what you're supposed to be doing that day, like it's gone.
00:38:17
Speaker
It's just a constant email refresh loop over and over again. god Yes, yes. So I love that about the book. Yeah. Well, I love how, how you structured it. Like, so you're like, your introduction is like women can't run, but every subsequent chapter it's like, but not more than a hundred meters. And it's like, but not, but only white women, but not a mile, but definitely not a marathon. And it it builds and builds and builds like that.
00:38:43
Speaker
So how did you lock into that as your, your central spine that the structure through which you were going to funnel all this information? That's so funny because it really just like came to me immediately and I wrote it out to my my editor and i I really thought like, oh, they're going to change. like We won't really call those chapters this. like And then it just stayed through throughout the whole process. And I was like, oh, actually, I guess it does make a lot of sense.
00:39:09
Speaker
And yeah, so many people have told me, oh, I really love the way that those chapters are called that. um But yeah, I mean, it just felt like because... Because what ended up, you know, being kind of obvious about how we wanted the book to be laid out was that this was a book about, you know, myths about women and gender, right? And that these kind of stories that have been told about what women can and can't do have always been a shifting goalpost. And like, that's how we know that they're fake, right? it's It's just not real.
00:39:44
Speaker
And so like,
Women in Sports: Progress and Media Portrayal
00:39:45
Speaker
let's go through these stories that have been told about women, because, you know, you would bring up one thing maybe in an article or something like that. And people are shocked to know that like, oh, women weren't allowed to run more than 800 meters. And like, this is crazy, right? It's crazy to think that.
00:40:01
Speaker
um And they were told they could, they would literally, you know, not be able to have children or they might die or whatever. And so one thing, right, is shocking or, but you know, not, you're not able to wrap your head really around it. But if you see it,
00:40:14
Speaker
in order, right? And like ah in that historical timeline and how things changed, that made kind of, it just made a lot of sense to me in terms of like, okay, this is a book that's, yes, it's about women and running and it's about sport, but it's also just about, you know, the stories we tell about gender and how wrong they've been.
00:40:33
Speaker
What was the most illuminating part of your research for this book? Oh gosh. um Great question.
00:40:44
Speaker
It's hard to remember. um I mean, I think for me, like one of the things that really just shocked me and sort of like made me realize like, oh, this is this is why this book is important, which I think is another thing we deal with as writers is like, as you're writing it, you're like, is this actually important? Like, does anyone care about this or not know about any of this yet?
00:41:12
Speaker
was putting together the like the marathon chapter and seeing how yeah that women's olympic marathon did not exist until 1984 like that is crazy um and then to think that like these women who were sneaking into marathons in the 60s like that was my mom's childhood and so like that to me was really the illuminating moment was i was like oh like my mom is one generation removed from me.
00:41:44
Speaker
She wasn't athletic. She didn't do sports. She didn't have any of those opportunities. Right. um But she loved sports. She actually loved baseball. She wanted to be a baseball player when she was little.
00:41:54
Speaker
I was definitely off limits. um And, you know, and then one generation later, you know, I was this like, sporty spice girl generation girl being told like yeah you can do anything and like of course you are gonna play soccer your whole life and all of that and that to me was like oh okay this is why societally we still have this like huge complex about women athletes and like paying them what they're worth or even like
00:42:26
Speaker
seeing them as impressive and things like that, because this is really recent history. And so that to me was really, was really amazing. And even, you know, some of the women in the beginning of the book from the early 1900s, you know, I mean, some of them hadn't died that, that recently, you know, or that long ago. um And I was able to talk with, you know, their children or their grandchildren. And that,
00:42:49
Speaker
you know, in and of itself is, you know, more proof that like, this is just really the last hundred years that we've been kind of figuring out how this all works. Yeah, and one of the more gripping chapters, it just for me, just that was the one you wrote with on yeah Mary Decker Slaney and just the arc of her career and the trajectory of her career.
00:43:13
Speaker
which you in ah just when you're When you're writing something like that, and again just how are how are you going about telling that story, building that chapter, and and what does she represent? Yeah, that was a really that was a hard one to write just in terms of of topic, right? Because it is really emotional and it's really, you know, it's close to home. It's it's what so many women athletes of my generation have gone through is this kind of like struggle with, um,
00:43:42
Speaker
body image and eating disorders, um, and things like that. And, um, you know, building her story was really a matter of, uh, doing a lot of archival research. I mean, you know, as well as I, that she's a little bit of a hermit.
00:43:58
Speaker
Um, and so, you know, that was about looking at, at what, and, and it kind of worked too for the chapter that like, um writing about sort of what the media said about her throughout her life became a really important component of it. So that was really, you know, i I did hunt down, there were a couple of books um that I read about her and then just so much archival newspaper and magazine research sort of putting together her timeline and finding those, those things of like, okay, what did we think of like,
00:44:36
Speaker
this girl who came on the scene as a runner, you know, when meanwhile, like women are still trying to like prove they can run marathons over here. And then she comes on as like this 13 year old running marathons and like breaking all of these records. And how did that jive with, you know, this societal picture we had of, of what little girls should look like or,
00:45:01
Speaker
you know, what, what athletes look like. And so, yeah, her story was very interesting. seeing um And then, you know, as with all of the chapters, it was kind of also about figuring out what, okay, well, what are those, you know, contextual pieces and, and historical pieces and scientific pieces that are going to come in and kind of compliment that story.
00:45:23
Speaker
um And, you know, for her, obviously, it really became about that whole, era of, you know, women athletes who were just totally under the microscope, um, in terms of what they looked like and, um, you know, how much they weighed and like these just things we would never feel out and should not say about women athletes today.
00:45:46
Speaker
um so yeah, putting that all together was, was was really great because she was covered so much. There is like a ton of information about her.
00:45:57
Speaker
And some of these, you know, other things that have been written about her were really helpful. At the same time, I knew I was kind of coming at it from a different perspective because I'm coming at it from a different era um and talking about like things like, you know, Red Us and relative energy deficiency syndrome and looking at her injuries you know sort of through that lens when you know we don't we don't know that that's really what happened to her.
00:46:27
Speaker
We don't have her medical records or things like that, but like you know she fits the she fits the frame of this this problem that was like very, very ever present.
00:46:37
Speaker
And yeah, she suffered so many injuries. And today, you know that those would be huge red flags. And yeah, and being able to kind of tie her story to to then like the Mary Kane story, which which people know, i think a lot better these days was for me, you know, kind of an obvious choice. And then, you know, it wasn't until later that I found out that like, actually, Mary Decker had been, you know, often asked about Mary Kane when she was on her way up. And um they did have all of these different connections that I hadn't, you know, even realized. And so
00:47:14
Speaker
you know It's one of those things that was kind of like the magic came came together as it as I was doing the writing. Yeah, I know i when when we spoke in Seattle, you know, you and I both said, like, we we we tried to reach Mary for our various projects. mean, I couldn't, ah and and you couldn't either.
00:47:33
Speaker
you know, what were, know, we were talking about phone calls earlier, and maybe the one shot you get at people. You know, what were some things that you would have, threads you really wanted to pull on with her if she was going to give you an hour on the phone?
00:47:45
Speaker
Oh, gosh. I mean...
00:47:50
Speaker
I know. Well, the one thing was she had been asked about kind of like, oh, do you think you're, do you think you were overtrained? Like she was asked that in her later careers because she did try to keep running. Like she kept trying to come back.
00:48:04
Speaker
And at some point people started asking her, oh, do you think you were overtrained? And she was always like, no, no, I wasn't overtrained. And so I felt like, you know, she probably wouldn't say anything different at this point, but you know, who knows? um And I would have, yeah, wanted to ask her about just like,
00:48:20
Speaker
you know, were you ever told things about like how much you should weigh what you should be eating? Like runners were just never taught like real good nutritional advice until like very recently.
00:48:33
Speaker
oh yeah So that would be, you know, one thing I would have really wanted to talk to her about. Of course, I would want to talk to her about Alberto Salazar, but I'm sure she would not also want to talk about that since they had a very close relationship.
00:48:46
Speaker
And, you know, just kind of Yeah, where she sort of sees herself. I think the other kind of tragic part about Mary is, um you know, that by the end, she really can't can't run at all anymore. And that was really this thing that brought her so much joy. So that would be another thing I would I would want to ask about.
00:49:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's a. The way men wrote about women and girls back then was so icky. And i know with Fran Worthen, who we grew up in Coos Bay, was a sprinter, who was a few years younger than Steve Prefontaine.
00:49:25
Speaker
she had a story written on her in sports illustrated ah because she's a brilliant sprinter and a long jumper and like in the lead it was just something like the 19 year old fran speakulle ah the the the 19 year old freckled lovely or something it was like how we describe i'm like ew it was like so gross yeah and that was like i mean integral to the storytelling of women in athletics was how they looked and how cute they were and it was yeah and even you know I mean it's still I mean that was a
Publishing Reflections and Future Projects
00:50:00
Speaker
problem just like 10 years ago right like still like okay like Alex Morgan got the most like sponsorship money because she was considered the prettiest one on the team you know like it's just like these this this stuff that like we are still dealing with maybe in different ways and like that has been kind of like called out finally but yeah I mean you think about even just like
00:50:24
Speaker
Yeah, 10, 20 years ago, the way people were allowed to talk about women in general, you know, who were on their TVs, like it's it's shifted a lot. Yeah. Well, and when you finished, you know, finished the book and went through, you know, the the publicity and the promotion of it and then you've been away from it, you know, a better part of a year, i more or less. It came out in 24.
00:50:46
Speaker
um Just how how are you thinking of books and book writing now that you have this one under your belt? And the how long did it take you to kind of come out of this one to maybe think about another?
00:51:01
Speaker
The million dollar question. oh I mean, it's been a roller coaster. I think you know that books are, they're an interesting process, right? There's so many.
00:51:13
Speaker
i mean, when you, I used to like, I used to hate listening to writers talk about um like the terrible things about writing books because like before I wrote a book, I was like, shut up. Like at least you wrote a book and you've got it published.
00:51:27
Speaker
yeah You are the, you are the goal, right? So I say this with a grain of salt and like knowing that like I know this was for me like this was a lifetime goal. Like and and I feel so happy and so lucky with the way that it all turned out. And at the same time, you know, it's really it's a really difficult industry.
00:51:45
Speaker
um You know, I have these these talks with my agent all the time now about like no one buys nonfiction books. And, you know, this is just like, you know, the numbers are fine for you.
00:51:56
Speaker
for the time period we're in and like also being like a women's sports book is like whole other thing that's like you're in this totally niche like okay good job if you sold any um so yeah you kind of like get pushed through this roller coaster of like okay but what's the next thing you should be worried about in terms of your book like are you gonna get the right publicity are you gonna like sell enough copies is anyone gonna come to your book events all of that stuff oh yeah And it goes up and down, right? It's like, oh, I have one great event and it's perfect. And then I do something else and I am like, no one came or no one, you know, it's like, so you have to kind of, for me, it became very much like, okay, like, this obviously isn't about me.
00:52:43
Speaker
There there are there are bigger issues happening. um And you take the wins where you get them, you know, when you have a really great event or, get someone who writes to you about how much they love the book, like, oh my God, what a gift. And like, what a thing to like be able to do. And, um you know, and making sure like see my therapist a lot just to like get through these like questions of like, maybe it was all a waste.
00:53:14
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, i think I knew that I wanted to keep writing books and I've definitely sort of struggled with I think in the last several months as I've been like, okay, I think I'm starting to get ready to like dive into more research and maybe we start a proposal again. And you know, part of you is like, is it worth is it? Is this gonna be but like, what am i what am I gonna get out of this one? I don't know. i do think that there's still something so special about, about books and about writing a book. And you know, to me now,
00:53:52
Speaker
knowing that like, A, this is a really hard time. i mean, it's a really hard time to like be alive, let alone like be a book writer. um That, you know, hopefully you're writing books that people are going to pick up 10, 20 years from now, right? And still read.
00:54:07
Speaker
And so I think that's what's really special about it, especially after being, you know, this freelance writer who's written mostly online for my entire career. And, you know, sometimes you put so much of yourself into that work and it it kind of like is a drop in the, in the bucket of the internet and you never hear about it again.
00:54:29
Speaker
So, so I think the book is special for that, that like, oh, this is something that ideally stays in print. And if I write another book, um, you know,
00:54:40
Speaker
Maybe people will love that book and then find this book because of that, you know. So, you know, thinking about it as something with a ah much longer tail and and hopefully, you know, lasting power, i think does make it make it worth it. But yeah, the industry is definitely big question mark and does make me kind of wonder what else I might have to do down the line.
00:55:05
Speaker
Did you experience kind of ah a post-book malaise or a funk? I just, as you know, just, yeah, after it was published and you thinking about something else is the, yeah, that's something I've experienced. And I just wonder maybe, maybe how you've wrestled with it.
00:55:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think there was maybe like three or four months after, you know, there's kind of, You have those little bums or like I did a little like fall tour like during marathon season and then had a couple like holiday market things. And like post that, like, yeah.
00:55:41
Speaker
I mean, yes you want you start to wonder and yeah, like was it all worth it or... um
00:55:50
Speaker
What's the point in in trying to do it again? You know, if like, oh, this, you know that there's going to be more disappointment in the future. So yeah, for sure. For sure. I think it is something that, you know, probably just changes...
00:56:06
Speaker
as you go on regardless, right? Like, and hopefully, I mean, you've written two books, so maybe you have a different perspective, but I'm like, I kind of want to get that second book under my belt so that I have like, it's not all just on this one, this one baby, you know?
00:56:22
Speaker
but Yeah.
Research and Mental Health Recommendations
00:56:23
Speaker
Yeah, there's there's so much, um just the idea of, because I just know how much research goes into it, and you're like, oh my God, got to start over with like, you know, i have the a monster master spreadsheet. I think we kind of talked about this well, where organize the work, and it's just like thinking of like populating that all over again.
00:56:43
Speaker
For another project, like, oh boy just the the inertia of trying to get it started. It's sometimes overwhelming to the point where like I just don't want to do it, but I know I have to, and and I know it's fun. It really is fun work when you're in a groove of good research. You're like, oh wow, this is so cool, and I'm going to be able to cook with these ingredients and really shape something together.
00:57:05
Speaker
that it should be evocative and fun and propulsive. ah Like that's where the juice is a lot. But to get started again, when you realize how much work, you know, you know, better, faster, farther was for you like, oh my God, it's so much. And you gotta, you gotta to start somewhere. You can't write the book in one go. it's It's the whole like running metaphor of it being a marathon and not a sprint is very on point. It's just like, it's just these little drops, one little step.
00:57:30
Speaker
And it does. it It adds up if you trust that process. it You get there, but it can be hard to start again. Oh, yeah. Now I have like piles of. I do another, another part of my like research processes. I go, I like go online and buy all these like used like old academic books and stuff on topics.
00:57:50
Speaker
And so I've done that for like my next, like what I think I'm going to be writing about. And so I have like the piles of books that I need to read, but I bought them. So that is the first step I like have them and I'm looking. Yeah.
00:58:01
Speaker
Oh, cool. Well, I can't wait to see what you might turn those into Maggie. So, uh, But so I want to be mindful of your time here. And as I bring these conversations down for a landing, i always love asking the guests for a recommendation for the listeners. and that's just like anything you're excited about.
00:58:15
Speaker
And ah so I'll just extend that to you, Maggie. What would you recommend for the listeners out there? Oh my gosh, put me on the spot. Well, i recommend working out.
00:58:28
Speaker
Can I say this? Running, even if you like don't consider yourself a runner, is very fun. I've actually like, that's been one of the best things from getting the book out and like becoming a little bit more of a runner myself, but also like hearing from people who are like, oh, I never thought of myself as a runner. And I just kind of like wanted to try it out after I read your book or like, you know, got into one of these little couch to 5k programs. And it's like, I think we all need like so many more endorphins at this moment in time just to like survive what we are all going through.
00:59:03
Speaker
And for me, that's meant like A, running and like B, lifting weights. And I think if you've never ever not done either of those, you should try them because I think we all need just like A, I mean, if you're a writer, like, you just, like, have to get out of your head sometimes.
00:59:23
Speaker
And you also
Final Thoughts and Website Importance
00:59:24
Speaker
probably need some, like, good ah routine, like, endorphin making. um So that is my that is my recommendation because it is what's been working for me in terms of just, like, staying on top of mental health and, like, not falling into those, like, deep, deep ravines of ah self-doubt.
00:59:43
Speaker
Doing this work not because you're, like, yeah, trying to win a race or like whatever, get super buff. But it's like, I just want to like, feel like strong enough to do the things I need to do. Right. And like, and like feeling strong in your body actually does like really boost your confidence, really help you like, just feel like more capable.
01:00:07
Speaker
um and yeah, I, I, I can't recommend it enough. Yeah, we need more of that energy in the world for sure. so But oh Maggie, so so great that we got to talk on the mics for this. you know As you know, I loved your book and um yeah I can't recommend it enough for people. So just that thanks for carving out the time and sharing sharing your time and sharing your work with us.
01:00:28
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Brendan. It's been a joy to to get to know you over the past few months.
01:00:39
Speaker
Oh, yes. Oh, that was awesome. Yes. What a nice time with Maggie. She interviewed me at Elliott Bay Book Company back in July to an audience filled with CNF pod listeners Sam Jeffries and Mark Armstrong.
01:00:54
Speaker
I desperately needed to return the favor for Maggie. This podcast will reach more than five people in theory. Don't forget about ordering signed, personalized copies of The Front Runner.
01:01:06
Speaker
For the reader in your life, email me and I'll invoice you through PayPal thirty but an invoice for $30. That includes media rate shipping. And be sure you're subbed at Pitch Club or The Rager. Ideally, both.
01:01:23
Speaker
There are any number of people out there raging against the algorithm. I think Seth Workheiser of Social media escape club. Like, I think of him, among others.
01:01:33
Speaker
I like his thinking, as it resonates and rhymes with my own. He's just more popular, so his ideas have a bit more reach. But I've long been raging, you know that. And a lot of the things he he says is like, yeah, it's like, nothing new under of the sun, let's say let's say that.
01:01:50
Speaker
I remember back in the day when I was frustrated when blog posts didn't get much traction. No comments. And it just seemed pointless. But now I don't care at all, really. i like that my little internet garden gets the best of me and that people who might seek me out will have a library worth of stuff to browse with not a whiff of an algorithm. You can just dig around. can search around for any number of terms in the little search bar and you might find something cool.
01:02:19
Speaker
You know, nothing nefarious, no data tracking. You may find some inspiration or a cool writing hack or maybe just a philosophical riff. Something probably spawned while i was out jogging.
01:02:32
Speaker
For many years, we stopped giving our websites the best of us because our websites weren't optimized to spread and connect the way social media is engineered to do and lock us in.
01:02:45
Speaker
For a long time before Facebook really re-engineered things, people just like, oh, I'll just set up an author page and put all my shit on Facebook and then As everybody knows by now, they change things so that even the people who follow you, you got to pay to get them or pay to appear in their feeds.
01:03:05
Speaker
Even these people who elected to see you. Just so shady. But that's the inshittification of the Internet. And speaking of that, we we'll have Cory Doctorow on the show with his new book, Inshittification, coming up in December sometime.
01:03:22
Speaker
So we started shoveling coal into that furnace and as a result we have these fallow, untended, outdated websites that are websites in name only. They're ghost towns. Who lived here?
01:03:33
Speaker
What happened to this place? Fact is, next to nobody is seeing our shit on social media anyway. So we might as well fully own it, right? Honestly, I don't trust Substack.
01:03:45
Speaker
I don't even trust Beehive, my two newsletter services these days, which is why I'm basically publishing first to those platforms, what what I normally do on the first of the month.
01:03:57
Speaker
then publishing them on my website as blogs. This way if Substack gets all weird or they start changing or they make you increasingly invisible unless you pull in money, I'll always have my content on my property.
01:04:13
Speaker
I'd like to spruce up my web website a bit, but then I think, well, why? It's pretty lean as it is. It's pretty slick. It doesn't have a thousand tabs on the menu.
01:04:24
Speaker
It's got a rail of things that I like to peruse myself and that I think is an easy jumping off point for people who might just be visiting. Oh, here's a good place to start. I wish I could separate my podcast show notes from blog posts.
01:04:38
Speaker
And I'm sure there's a way, but I might need to hire someone to optimize that. and yeah Or not. I don't know. We all know that on some level, it's better to own than to rent. And social media overlords are slumlords.
01:04:50
Speaker
And we pay them we pay them data. Sometimes we pay them money. And we definitely give them too much of our attention. And for what? There's an illusion of connection.
01:05:02
Speaker
An illusion of reach.
01:05:06
Speaker
So don't give them the best you've got. Easier said than done, but fight it as best you can. I'm doing my best. It's not always great, but I'm trying.
01:05:19
Speaker
So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interviews, see ya.