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Episode 498: Sasha Bonet on Not Holding Back
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"I have this desire to write as a novelist might write but write nonfiction," says Sasha Bonet, the author of The Waterbearers: A Memoir of Mothers and Daughters (Knopf).
Today we have the brilliant writer, the brilliant mind, Sasha Bonet, author of The Waterbearers: A Memoir of Mothers and Daughters. This book is a masterpiece that chronicles the matriarchal lineage of Sasha’s family, and the pain, and the struggle, and the triumph of will, of the slow, methodical, generational march forward and the residue of generational trauma, what we can outrun and we can never outrun. Damn, man, it’s something of a family epic that brought to mind A Hundred Years of Solitude to me in its scope, in its sweep. I don’t know. Maybe I have no clue what I’m talking about.
Sasha is a writer, critic, and editor living in the socialist hellscape of New York City, woot, woot!
Her essays have appeared in the Paris Review, Aperture, New York Magazine, Vogue, and BOMB, among others. She earned an MFA from Columbia University and teaches nonfiction writing at Columbia’s School of the Arts and Barnard College. You can learn more about Sasha at sashabonet.com and follow her on the gram @sasha.bonet.
This is a rich conversation about:
- Community
- The in-between place
- Not holding back
- Her influences
- Her writing practice
- And how jazz informs her writing
She’s also good friends with G’Ra Asim, who appeared on these podcast airwaves way back on Ep. 256.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Recommended
Transcript
Lecture Announcement at University of Oregon
00:00:00
Speaker
Monday, Monday, Monday. Are you ready for some lectures? Monday, November 10th. If you're in Eugene, I'll be delivering a little lecture for the U of O History Pub to kick off the series this year. It's at 7 p.m. at World Pies.
00:00:17
Speaker
And it will be, it will have, it will include my world-famous annotated reading, among a couple other things. Come on down, get a slice of Zabra and get fucking hammered.
00:00:29
Speaker
As I talk about the front runner, oh, it's going to be a banger. I don't think the U of O history department knows what it might be getting into, what it might be doing to society by unleashing this Stay Puft Marshmallow Man on Eugene.
00:00:44
Speaker
P.S. Please hire me at your next engagement. What are you doing? Look at yourself. Look at what you're doing.
Celebrating 500 Episodes of Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:00:58
Speaker
Oh, hey, bitch. We're just lobbing podcasts at you like water balloons. Here is episode 498 of the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where i talk to tellers have true tales about the true tales they tell.
00:01:11
Speaker
Listen, we're all bad at math here, but we can all figure out that 498 is awfully damn close to 500, and I've got something pretty special planned for episode 500. That's a big one.
00:01:24
Speaker
Every hundred is a milestone of some kind, but 500 it's the biggest one to date. And it won't get any bigger than that until 1,000. And that's something like at least five years from now.
00:01:40
Speaker
Oh wait, no, see, here's the bad at math part. That's like 10 years from now. Jesus. Ugh. So thanks for, and I will be 55 years old. Will podcasts, will the world even be around? I've got something pretty special. And I'm just, just thanks for being along for the ride. If you follow me on the gram, you already know what's coming, but only like.001% of people likely saw it. So it's going to be a surprise to a lot of you.
00:02:07
Speaker
That's going to drop CNF Friday.
Interview with Sasha Bonet on 'The Water Bearers'
00:02:09
Speaker
November 21st. But today we have the brilliant writer, the brilliant mind, Sacha Bonet, author of The Water Bearers, a memoir of mothers and daughters. It's published by Knopf.
00:02:20
Speaker
Can we do away with the K? but Like, we don't need to pronounce this. It's Knopf now. and and And quite honestly, there could be two silent letters in Knopf.
00:02:31
Speaker
There's a P in there. If we get ah get rid of the K, get rid of the P, we'll just call them NOF and just call them NOF.
00:02:44
Speaker
This book is a fucking masterpiece that chronicles the matriarchal lineage of Sasha's family and the pain and the struggle and the triumph of will of the slow, methodical, generational march forward and the residue of generational trauma, what we can outrun and what we can never outrun. Damn.
00:03:02
Speaker
Damn. It's something of a family epic that brought to mind 100 years of solitude to me in its scope, in its sweep. I don't know, maybe I have no clue what the hell I'm talking about. Show notes of this episode more at brendanamero.com. Hey, hey, there, you can peruse for hot blogs and sign up for my two very important newsletters, the flagship Rage Against the Algorithm and Pitch Club.
00:03:23
Speaker
Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. Also, if you care to support the podcast with a few dollar-dollar bills, visit patreon.com slash cnfpod. And speaking of that, I want to thank...
00:03:36
Speaker
ah new patron, I believe I'm pronouncing it, it's either Stephan or Stephan, Reese Williams, for becoming a full-bodied CNF-er. Welcome aboard, and thank you very much for the support.
00:03:49
Speaker
So Sasha is a writer, a critic, an editor, living in the socialist hellscape of New York City, whoop, whoop. Her essays have appeared in the Paris Review, Aperture, New York Magazine, Vogue, and Bomb, among others.
00:04:05
Speaker
She earned an MFA from Columbia University, so she's wicked smart, and teaches nonfiction writing at Columbia's, wicked smart, School of the Arts in Barnard College. You can learn more about Sasha at SashaBoney.com.
Community Support in Book Promotion
00:04:18
Speaker
And follow her on the Instagrams at Sasha.Boney. This is a rich conversation about community, the in-between place, not holding back, her influences, her writing practice, and how jazz informs her writing.
00:04:34
Speaker
She's also good friends with G. Ra Asim, who appeared on these podcast airwaves way back on episode 256. So, parting shot on the power of spec writing, but for now, it's high time we hear from the wonderful, the one, and the only, Sacha Bonet riff.
00:05:01
Speaker
Is this a podcast where I can swear? That's the dumbest fucking shit. Total ego goblin. Just kind of a sloppy person. So true. I actually would not mind just growing people's flowers for them.
00:05:11
Speaker
This is going to have to interest somebody somewhere other than me.
00:05:25
Speaker
Writing is such a kind of an act that you're doing mostly alone and you know, with a few other people. so it's a little strange to now be talking with so many people all the time. and But I've been enjoying it. I think it's been really rewarding to be on the tour and get to talk to the people who've read the book and they get to share, you know, I think what's been most rewarding is seeing what stands out to certain people, which parts of the book people connect to. And that's been exciting.
00:05:58
Speaker
Yeah, isn't that wild how... You know, maybe there are certain intentions you have in in writing the thing and things that stand out to you more directly. But as you give it away, you you know, you you're echoing that sentiment that other people might like really lock into a certain thing. Like, wow, geez, ah that might have been an afterthought for me as the writer. But like to that particular reader, like that is the thing that they really latch on to.
00:06:24
Speaker
it kind of tells you a little bit about the person. what their interests are. And also, it's nice to hear when the parts that I loved writing stands out to someone, the parts that I felt like really good about, really proud of, um which usually actually aren't the parts that people call out.
Challenges in Book Promotion and Publishing Misconceptions
00:06:46
Speaker
It's all good. Sometimes it's parts that I felt like really insecure about or felt like I could have worked on longer that people enjoyed. And so that's that's rewarding. So how have you, just with with this book and the water bearers, just started to just how are you thinking about it and embracing yeah the the public facing part of what you what you have to do now?
00:07:07
Speaker
You know, um i agree. That part is hard. i I have to say it's my first book. So I didn't really understand entirely what my role would be in the kind of promotional part.
00:07:19
Speaker
I thought that, you know, the publisher would handle that, the publicist, the marketing team. And I've really had to call on my community a lot, um which is not always easy, but I think is a good practice. It's a good muscle that I'm using. And I've also spent so many years building up this beautiful community which I love and actually it's strengthening that because I'm able to call on them and people wanna be called on. you know People want you to include them and and everyone wants to be useful and helpful. So um it has been a struggle to kind of request certain things from people that are really just like, I just need you to help me promote this thing. Can you post this? Can you share this? Can you invite me onto your show?
00:08:06
Speaker
And then also there are the people who are just offering And doing doing things, maybe people who i have already been in a circumstance like that I'm in right now, other writers, other artists.
00:08:18
Speaker
In that way, it's it's really strengthened my relationship with my community in ways that I hadn't anticipated. Yeah, community is so huge, and I think it's maybe an undervalued or maybe ah maybe a harder thing to to cultivate.
00:08:36
Speaker
But it is so integral to this because we are in our heads for long time, and fostering that degree of community is really what being a literary citizen is about, really. So at what point did that switch turn on for you?
00:08:50
Speaker
that switch turn on for you I think the the time in between finishing the book and the book coming out, which was a torturous time. I mean, you're just kind of waiting.
00:09:03
Speaker
And my idea was that, oh, I'm i'm going to be writing my next book. I'll start working on that. And I have not been able to do that at all. Like everyone I tell that to who's published a book, they kind of laugh. They're like, you can't do anything during that time. It's it's an awful time.
00:09:19
Speaker
um And I'm just kind of like, why didn't anyone tell me? No one said that this time would be as awful as it is. You're kind of just sitting and waiting for something to to be born. I guess it's kind of like the book is the birth and that kind of That time is really nerve wracking, but you also have to start strategizing with the team and they wanna know who you know, and they wanna know who can blurb. and And the blurb process also is, it feels very archaic and really silly. And as a person who is a reader who does read blurbs and certain people do influence me, I'm like, if Maggie Nelson says that this is a good book,
00:10:02
Speaker
I'm going to read this book because she doesn't blurb that many books, you know? So, so in that way, i I understand the necessity of them, but it was such a tedious act to try to reach out to so many writers who are also working on books, you know, and and there's a short timeframe that they have to get back to you to give you the blurb. And, and that process in between of really, that's when you, I really had to turn on the, who all do I know? And then they actually send you a questionnaire that's like,
00:10:31
Speaker
Who do you know? who can we contact? Send us their contacts. And that was an interesting process of kind of just going through my memory, going through my Instagram, going through my contacts and trying to pull on threads. But then once you kind of see them all written down, i did feel a sense of um of joy and gratitude and saying, wow, I've really um created this life that i dreamed about with all of these other artists and thinkers and people who i who i really admire.
00:11:06
Speaker
that maybe I wouldn't, otherwise I wouldn't have the opportunity to really reflect on that in that way. Yeah. Something you said a moment ago about, um, ah about your, your community, the people wanting to be called on, you know, and I'm someone who always just, pre you know, preternaturally feels like I'm a burden to everyone. And if I ask for a favor, I'm like, I'm putting them out.
00:11:28
Speaker
But I loved hearing you say like your community was like, yeah, we're ready to help you. And was that kind of a something of a mind fuck where you're like, oh, wow, like, yeah, my my people are are ready to be called on for me. and likewise, when they need to me to be called on, like, I'll be there for them, too.
00:11:43
Speaker
Totally. And when, and and, you know, people have called on me many times in the past and of course I'm, I'm very happy to help, but for some reason, why don't I think about it in in the opposite terms? Like I agree. I feel like I'm a burden. I feel like, oh no, I don't want to.
00:11:59
Speaker
you know, inconvenience anyone. I know she's really busy or I know he's tied up and they just had a kid and the books, his books coming out, you know, I'm thinking of all these reasons why i would be a burden and kind of talking myself out of why I should ask.
00:12:12
Speaker
um But in the end, I've learned a valuable lesson in in understanding that it's a gift to call on someone actually. And ah towards towards the end of the book are or the end it um ah sort of the the back quarter, i I saw that you're you're you're good friends with ah Jira.
00:12:33
Speaker
um Is it Asim? Does you pronounce their names? Asim. Asim. It is Asim. Yeah. Like Jira was on the show ah a few years ago for his mixtape book to his brother, which was just an awesome book. But I love seeing his name in there. And I just wanted to get like, yeah you know, how how did you guys meet? Because he he and his family, they're just such brilliant artists and writers. um Yeah. So how how did you guys meet?
00:12:55
Speaker
Totally. Jira
Friendship with G. Ra Asim and Its Influence
00:12:56
Speaker
is absolutely my best friend in the world. And um he and i'm i'm his family is sober, all of them, you know, all of them. It's kind of incredible to spend time with them and just understand that these people grew up having dinner together and having conversations that were so different from Maya bringing.
00:13:17
Speaker
But we met at at university in grad school and we met on the like accepted students night where you you're in between if you accept the offer or not.
00:13:28
Speaker
And I have to say, Jira was like really pursuing me as a friend. And I was kind of just like, I'm i'm in a zone. I'm here to do something, you know, really kind of head down. And he just kept saying, you know, we need to hang out, need to hang out And we were to we were two of three black students in the graduate program for um nonfiction writing.
00:13:51
Speaker
So, you know, obviously that also bonded us and our experience. And I really, i we became like kind of creative counterparts.
00:14:02
Speaker
You know, he's kind of my main interlocutor when I have an idea, when I'm trying to tease something out. um And of course, with this book, he really helped me to develop what it is that this book was trying to do And really, it was him who said to me, you know, this book is brilliant. This idea is brilliant because America has not reconciled its reality with its image of itself, um which which aligned somewhat like that is in the book. And that that became the kind of thesis of the book.
00:14:36
Speaker
And he also said, you know, what you're creating is you're pushing back against moynihan the Moynihan report that suggests that matriarchy is the problem with the black family in America.
00:14:52
Speaker
um And he's like, even if you don't, he suggested that even if you don't mention the Moynihan report, you can keep that in your mind as a as the concept that you're pushing up against. That's the theory that you are trying to debunk.
00:15:06
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, okay. So he really um is constantly my champion and telling me that the idea I have is worth exploring. And I'll try to talk myself out of it and say, okay, this isn't really interesting. And he's like, these are all the reasons why.
00:15:22
Speaker
um i would say from the conception all the way to now, um you know, with the, with the publication of the book and And he's like, I guess I'm just going to have to be the person that calls you and tells you that this is the thing that you said you wanted for so long. And you should be really proud of yourself. And you should take some moments to celebrate because I think in this process, it's easy to forget to celebrate because it's you're going, you're going, you know, there are interviews, there's the tour and
00:15:54
Speaker
um It's all very high energy and not a lot of time for reflecting. So he's that for me, the person who just calls to remind me that he remembers when I said that this is what I wanted to do and that this is the dream I had. And he's reminding me that I've arrived there, which is that everyone should have a person like that in their life.
00:16:16
Speaker
Yeah, oh, for sure. It's so hard to slow down and to your point, like to reflect on it because the the machine has to keep moving. But yeah, but you have to remind yourself, what my God, like what you pour into these projects and then to see it actually come to bear is we so rarely, you know, take a moment or days or weeks to even like pat ourselves on the back for having finished these things and then it's on to the next thing and then the ocean washes away those footprints and suddenly there's like all right well I gotta start over and but you never took the time to like enjoy it totally totally I'm trying to do that I'm really really trying
00:16:59
Speaker
And even with getting reviews, you know I'll find like that one line that it's like a great review. And I'm like, but but why but why did she say that? like you know And it's like, i have to do that thing.
00:17:11
Speaker
um so I'm working on that. I'm working on trying to have more gratitude for the whole process. Overall, it's incredible. And I'm learning so much. And it's really exciting.
00:17:23
Speaker
um But I am constantly thinking about my next project, I have to say. here Oh yeah, for sure. Cause you want to like take the, the, the burning embers of the previous one and try to light the next one as fast as possible. Right. Just keep that momentum going.
00:17:38
Speaker
ah Exactly. That's perfect. That's a perfect metaphor. And I love getting a sense of ah the practice that we put into place so we can get work done amidst our various responsibilities.
00:17:51
Speaker
and ah yeah And just for you, Sasha, like, you know, what is your your your typical you know practice on a given day or or a week when you're you know looking to get stuff done? Yeah, my writing practice is pretty, pretty strict as far as like I do kind of the same thing, which is just waking up really early, 4 four a m ah go and i go to my, I have my coffee and all of that. I go to my altar. I do my little meditation.
00:18:21
Speaker
um and then I, and in my my meditation is really kind of a ah calling you know, you know, people who who have passed, people who support me, and just kind of a spiritually opening myself up to be guided and opening myself up to my own subconscious and trying to have the the courage to access that. So I do like a little ah little meditation that's basically like, show me the way and I will go.
00:18:59
Speaker
I will be brave. I will have courage. I can do this, essentially. and then i And then I get to work. But that's like the actual writing process. But of course, so much is happening before I sit down to write, which is this kind of turning ideas over and really talking to a lot of people. I think before I'm sitting down to write, I'm talking about these ideas and kind of trying to work them out and tease them out.
00:19:23
Speaker
And Jira is a person that I do that with a lot. And other friends is just, you know, these conversations we have trying to pull coals in each other's ideas and like help them grow and and help find what's not working.
00:19:38
Speaker
So all of those things, I think the talking process is really helpful before I sit down to write. But then once I sit down to write, I'm able to access that zone pretty much whenever I need to, if I go through my ritual.
00:19:53
Speaker
And I guess that can kind of happen anywhere, but I have a little office, but it can also be that I'm traveling. and So I can kind of carry that, that practice with me wherever I am. But the morning time is my, my special time.
00:20:09
Speaker
And yeah, given that we're so bombarded with various stimuli coming at us from any number of directions, uh, physical or digital or whatever, how do you sort of honor your attention?
Writing Techniques and Influences
00:20:21
Speaker
So you get the most out of these, know, these sessions on a given day. I mean, I have to not have my phone, um, because it is like the biggest distraction for all of us, but especially for a writer. I mean, there are a million things that I could do,
00:20:38
Speaker
other than writing. you know Everything starts to take precedence. The dishes, the laundry, everything's like it has to be done um to talk myself out of writing. But yeah, i put these locks on my phone and then I and then i write without the internet. um So I just try to restrict myself as much as I can. And I have to put all these like reinforcement locks, you know, like, you know, it's it's not just one lock, it's like double locked so that I just, it takes a long time to access it so that at least at some point when I'm trying to get to my phone, between all of the locks, something will trigger in my mind that says,
00:21:21
Speaker
What are you doing? Look at yourself. Look at what you're doing. You're going through all of this for what? What you even been trying to do? you know, yeah and usually I'm not doing anything it's it's I'm just trying to distract myself.
00:21:36
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that's so true. like putting those ah Putting friction between and distance between like us and the supercomputer in our hands, it's like i just it upsets me that we even have to play these games with ourselves.
00:21:52
Speaker
It's so embarrassing. It's embarrassing. It's like you're a grown adult, have some discipline, put it down, you know, it's ridiculous, but it's, and and you know, what's, what's interesting is this process that I'm in now, which is the kind of promotional time is all about the phone.
00:22:11
Speaker
I'm on my phone nonstop, you know, I'm checking, I'm emailing, I'm messaging, I'm On my Instagram, like trying to be a ah social media person, which is not natural to me. i don't know.
00:22:23
Speaker
You know, the marketing team at the publisher, they have to try to help me and send me things that I can post because I have no mind for that. I don't have that that kind of intelligence.
00:22:34
Speaker
um which some people have it really naturally and some people cultivate it but i I really struggle with knowing how to have a presence online. um But that helps me when I'm writing because I'm like, I don't and don't need to post anything or share anything. But in this process, I feel like, oh, I wish I had more of a social media presence right now Or I wish I knew how to navigate social media better, more effectively.
00:23:03
Speaker
So it's interesting that these two different parts have to operate separately. And I'd like to try to find a way to strike a balance there. In reading The Water Bears, i was just so struck by, know, your voice and style and how really, you know, your sentences really, you know, just they snap, crackle and pop, you know, throughout the whole thing. And it just makes it a very, ah just a a stimulating reading experience on top of just what you're writing about.
00:23:32
Speaker
And um who who might you identify as some of the influences that went into, you know, the soup that would become, you know, something that's uniquely Sacha Bonnet? and All of the things, I feel like there's so many things that I read that kind of lead me, led me here.
00:23:50
Speaker
But I would say i have this desire to write as a novelist might write, but to write nonfiction. That feels to me like my That feels like my the place where I feel at home and where it feels most true to what i what i what i what i like.
00:24:09
Speaker
I love to read fiction, but I also really love criticism and I love nonfiction. Like, as I mentioned, Maggie Nelson, who does a really great job at talking about culture while also because she's a poet being able to do it in this poetic way.
00:24:28
Speaker
um i love I love that style. Also Hilton Owls also does that, um is able to have this kind of intense scrutiny and exploration and examination of things.
00:24:42
Speaker
while also not losing the reader in a kind of academic style writing while still employing beautiful prose and metaphors and really poetry within it. And and what I love about Hilton is that he's able to also skirt the line of what is fiction versus nonfiction, like the way that he he is not bound to these these barriers that that are really like the hard lines.
00:25:11
Speaker
I love all writers who kind of stay and stay in that place between what genre is this? Like when you're reading it, you don't really know. and I think um Claudia Rankine does that. I think that Jamaica Kincaid is also another one. When I'm reading her work, it's labeled a novel, but it's also like very clearly her family that she's writing about.
00:25:35
Speaker
I feel like Valeria Luiselli is also a writer that I deeply admire. she She's also on that line. fiction Is it fiction? Is it nonfiction? lot of the things in her fiction are actually true. So, you know, I just love being in that in-between place. that's That's where I like to live on the page and off the page.
00:25:57
Speaker
um Of course, Toni Morrison um really kind of, provided a way of showing me as a reader that the people in my life, the people I live amongst, the women in my family, my community, my surroundings, my mother, that these people have lives that are worth witnessing and they have lives of deep interiority and that they they're interesting.
00:26:26
Speaker
I think in reading her work, I was able to see my family and then I was able to say, oh, like these lives are also interesting too. How can I explore what's right around me more deeply, even though we I don't come from a community that is often speaking about their interiority?
00:26:49
Speaker
They're usually doing lots of things to avoid speaking about their interiority. And so you have to kind of read these gestures and and read what's not being said.
00:27:00
Speaker
And I think because I grew up in that type of environment, it does help me, i think, as a writer to be able to write about what's not said and to be able to show on the page without having to use dialogue.
00:27:16
Speaker
So the way these women carry themselves, what's what's unspoken, the look in someone's eye, you know the posture, all of the things that tell a story without words.
00:27:27
Speaker
um I mean, I have i have so um obviously Jira's work, The Boys in the Void was also wonderful because it's also a blend of this criticism and and memoir. Leslie Jameson,
00:27:40
Speaker
who is not afraid. i was reading Splinters while I was writing the last parts of the book. And it really helped me to go into that place that's really scary, where you write about the things that are not flattering, um where you write about these deeply personal moments ah with a lover and the kind of fracturing of that relationship and and and how you both behave when that relationship is falling apart.
00:28:10
Speaker
and you're kind of your worst self and being able to put that on the page. And I think she, she I was like, wow, how is she doing this? I need to just do I have to just tell the story in a real way. I can't hold back.
00:28:24
Speaker
So all of these writers kind of have shaped me in many ways. And of course, many others, matt Margot Jefferson. But these are these are probably the ones that are coming to me just right now.
00:28:37
Speaker
the fact that you're reading, know, say splinters while you're generating pages for the water bearers, yeah what is that? ah What is the, the maybe the the strength in doing that, but also maybe the the danger in doing that as well?
00:28:53
Speaker
I hear a lot of writers say that they don't like to read while they're writing. i don't really see the danger. i don't feel the danger. I feel like my I feel quite confident and in my own practice and that I have developed a voice that feels good for me or an approach that feels like my own.
00:29:14
Speaker
So I don't feel like I'm in danger. when i was When I was studying with Philip Lopate, who I love, He would say, you know, sometimes when you can't get started, you need to open a book that you love and you need to just write the pages, like just copy the pages down and just to get that generative flow going.
00:29:37
Speaker
And it doesn't mean that if I, you know, open a book by, you know, Simone de Beauvoir that I'm going to turn into her. You know, if I, you know, if I'm reading her, I'm, I'm, I'm absolutely not going to turn into her. I don't have the capabilities of becoming her on the page.
00:29:55
Speaker
I don't feel that danger. And I need something while I'm writing to, help me see myself and to help me see what I don't want to do and to help me see what what's possible, what what the the limits of ah of language are, the possibilities of language are. Because I think you can forget, sometimes you can be so in your own work that you forget about what language can do.
00:30:23
Speaker
And ah sometimes I need these reminders of, or also looking at, um ah different approaches, like how can you approach something in a different way? It's kind of like youre you're stuck in a corner and you're trying to go and you're trying to get through. And it's like, obviously, someone looking over your shoulder would say, hey, why don't you turn around and try to go in a different direction?
00:30:45
Speaker
But yeah that person's not there with you. So in the reading, it's kind of helping me to turn around and see ah see some different paths um and try some different openings. And sometimes you'll try an opening that you see another writer doing And then that'll lead you to another path.
00:31:01
Speaker
um So I don't think that there's much danger in that for me, but I have heard writers and friends say that they will start to mimic the writer that they're reading. And I don't know that I feel that danger as much as I feel the benefits.
00:31:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think a good way of reframing it, if if writers think that they're yeah there's going to be that voice creep that's going to trespass on their style or they're going to come across as mimicry, um i think musicians all the time will be like, if they're a bit stuck, they're just going to pull down a record that inspires them and just get that music into their brain. Be like, oh, okay, this is...
00:31:44
Speaker
going to push me and my style into the direction I need to go I'm not going to copy that band but they they've inspired me they informed me and that's going to push me into maybe the the the direction we need to go in you know the like you said the different paths like the paths are there you just need to be pointed there and that's a great way to orient yourself Yeah, yeah. I'm glad you brought up music because music is also really helpful to my practice.
00:32:13
Speaker
I feel like it informs my work. Visual art also really informs my work. So I'm seeing a lot of art while I'm while i'm working because that also kind of opens up my my mind and my heart.
00:32:25
Speaker
And also music, especially jazz. um Jazz just feels like, to me, it it it's what I want to do on the page. Jazz is, it's taking from all of these different forms and all of these different ways. It's breaking rules that exist.
00:32:42
Speaker
and And it's like this kind of like a collage and i and I see the work kind of like that, like a collage or or like jazz. And so that really helps me to also kind of open up the possibilities. So music and visual art are just as important to me as reading while I'm working.
00:33:06
Speaker
Well, there is with the water barriers, even a collage kind of um element to it, even though there's a linearity, you know, coming from, you know, Betty Jean right through, you know, basically your daughter.
Cultural Narratives and Historical Roles
00:33:18
Speaker
a And then and even the book ends with a little collage that you made. And so, like, how are you thinking of ah almost like a structured collage, if you will, if that makes any sense, because there is order to it, but there is also patchwork.
00:33:33
Speaker
Yeah, I do. When I was having my talk with Doreen St. Felix at The Strand, which was like the launch, she said something that I hadn't thought of, but she said that she felt like the book read like a shoreline.
00:33:46
Speaker
in that there's like this, the the water approaches and then it recedes. And so even though it is linear in that the the three sections, it's still going forward and backward in time. And then she felt like the book itself mimicked the flow of water and the ways that it it it moves forward and retreats. And i was like, oh, that's brilliant. Like, I love that. that's I didn't think about it in that way, but I do think that that's kind of what's happening.
00:34:13
Speaker
And I do think that... The jazz is such a great embodiment of the Black experience um in the Americas. I feel it's pulling from so many different places. And, you know, my family is from Louisiana. So there's like the French, there's the Spanish, there's the Creole, there's the...
00:34:34
Speaker
There's the African, there's the people, the indigenous people who came from Canada who were forced out and like pushed to Louisiana to do another French colony because Canada wanted to push out all the blacks. And so they took them down to Louisiana. So there's, it's really like pulling from so many different places.
00:34:56
Speaker
um culturally. And I think that is the embodiment of the Black experience, including like the Irish and and, of course, the English. There's like all of these different things happening that are impacting the way the culture that the that exists in America.
00:35:12
Speaker
And specifically for the Black experience, because we're all kind of like really mixed up. And so I feel like jazz is is really the musical embodiment of that. And the thing I was always asking myself was, how can i turn that into ah literary practice?
00:35:29
Speaker
How can I bring in all of these elements on the page while still keeping it focused, you know, and not... making it too confusing or too jumbled up. And and that's, ah you know, it feels like, for example, in Louisiana, we have something called a goulash, ah which is basically like you're mixing all these different foods together to make like a big pot of something.
00:35:53
Speaker
and And it's delicious, you know. um but it But it is that. It's like you're you're blending from all of these different places that you pull from. and creating something beautiful out of it. and And once you do that, it creates a whole new form. you know Jazz is like this mix of so many things, but then it becomes like this very American art form that feels really representative of the American experience, because that's what we are. We're just a mix of so many different things.
00:36:21
Speaker
And that's what I wanted the book to reflect, which is really ambitious, especially for a first book. But that's, that was what was in my mind all the time is trying to, trying to show how something can, something can be created from all of these little parts.
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah. ah And and ah later in the book, ah you write page 238 of my galley. You know, you write when I began writing this book, I knew I wanted to write about black womanhood, but I kept being pulled back to motherhood and I couldn't understand why. And I think I just want you to kind of run with that and why it was that you were pulled back to to motherhood. And maybe you've come to and a satisfactory answer at this point.
00:37:05
Speaker
Well, the the research was pulling me there. So I was trying to, I was reading and I'm trying to pull, you know, um oral histories and pulling things from the past and trying to understand the kind of origin of Black women's relationship to each other and to this country. And i that's when i I kept seeing that the role of Black women was always motherhood in this country, which is where this kind of concept of race is was was was made and born. you know This concept that you know I feel is very much not real. i don't believe that
00:37:51
Speaker
race is real, but I do believe that the culture that was built around this this this mythology is what what I was trying to explore. So these women were
00:38:06
Speaker
What was interesting to me, one of the main things I found that was interesting is that there were so many Black people who were born here in in the U.S., which is different from, for example, Brazil or from the Caribbean, where so many enslaved people were taken there.
00:38:23
Speaker
um In the U.S., there weren't actually that many ships that came directly to the U.S., ah many Black people were born here and kind of bred here and how the U.S. really made their, made a kind of industry here of procreation So these women were giving birth to 20 children more, and they're starting as soon as they you begin menstruating, 12, 14, and they're giving birth their entire lives. and um And they're giving birth, but they're still working physically.
00:39:01
Speaker
and then the grandmothers are the ones who are raising the children. And these women that are giving birth are also raising the children of the of the plantation, the white children of the plantation. you know They're suckling them.
00:39:16
Speaker
They're raising these people. So they're not just mothers to Black children, they're mothers to the white children. And so in that way, I was like, oh, these women are just, this is what they were meant to be in the creation of the empire. This was always their role.
00:39:32
Speaker
and And that hasn't stopped today in how we think about Black women, even for myself, I was like, i was so resistant to it because I was like, I'm so tired of that narrative, but i didn't understand where the narrative began. I just knew that I didn't want to write something that was like stereotypical.
00:39:50
Speaker
But i I needed to understand where the stereotype began and why the the this kind of mammy figure even exists. And that was really kind of where things opened up and where i was like, oh, this is the book.
00:40:04
Speaker
This is what I'm trying to get at. Like, this is, I i have to write about motherhood. And then, of course, as I continued and applied what I was finding through the research to my own family, i was able to understand us better.
00:40:19
Speaker
myself and also these women, my aunts, my mother, my grandmother. Yeah, at one point you're right, just echoing a lot of the sentiment. You said like the most precious and valuable tool of the empire was the womb of the black woman.
00:40:32
Speaker
In order for America to reconcile its reality with its image of itself, it has to reckon with this history first. And it's just one of those real, real sobering insights to to really have to to face that and to hear you articulate it. You're like, damn, that is that is something that this current administration would like us to very much erase and turn away from.
00:40:53
Speaker
but I love that your your, your, your book makes us look at that and metabolize it in a way and really stare it, stare it down and, and be stared down by it really.
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah, totally. I think, um, we're in a We're in a place of that kind of erasure, but it it's very historically American anyway. in In the research and trying to find information, so much of it has been erased and lost. and And so what this administration is doing is kind of a calling back to the past.
00:41:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Even later in the book, you know, there's another thing I said, you like American sis, forget where you come from, forget your languages, forget your rituals, I believe religions, homelands, but the past is all I can think about these days. i learned to mother through remembering. And I just remember like that was, ah that was just like one of those slam dunk sentences. Like I learned to mother through remembering. i was like, that is, that is just electric there.
00:41:54
Speaker
Thank you so much. Yeah. That was a quote from Eduardo Galeano, um, who is, really kind of help helped me to unearth what it is that this, and he's from South America, but still it's the same kind of concept, but yeah a brilliant thinker and,
00:42:13
Speaker
Really, all of his work is getting at this, these ideas. And I think there was someone, I can't remember which president, when ah Barack Obama went to South America, one of the presidents gave him a copy of Eduardo Galeano's book, where he has this line and says, you know, if you really, if you really want to understand South America, you need to read this book.
00:42:37
Speaker
And I think it applies, of course, it applies to all the Americas. this This idea of forgetting, it's a collective forgetting. It's how we built our nations and how we built this kind of pride is in forgetting. You come here, you forget everything and you become American.
00:42:56
Speaker
earlier in our conversation, you you referenced this Moynihan report. and And for those who who might be unfamiliar with it, you'll get familiar with it through reading the book, but ah maybe just explain what that is a bit, a kind of as a, yeah really as a big touchstone of the book and, ah you know, central to, you know, your framing of the story in ah in a way.
Moynihan Report and Cultural Visibility in the South
00:43:16
Speaker
Yeah, he was the Secretary of Labor. I can't remember the years, in the nineteen fifty s i think. But essentially he was tasked with creating a kind of summary of what's going on in the black community. What's the the black problem?
00:43:30
Speaker
What is the black problem? Um, and he. he came to the conclusion that the problem with the Black community is that it is matriarchal in nature and therefore will never be able to succeed. That's why they they stay in poverty. That's why the Black family is destitute.
00:43:51
Speaker
There is no redemption for the for the Black family as long as um they are matriarchal. And that is, of course, counter to what the American, the white American structure suggests, which is that it is a patriarchal nation.
00:44:11
Speaker
And in that way, I'm thinking, of course, when I'm reading the report, so there's no mention of enslaved labor being the the descendants of enslaved labor. There's no mention of the education in Black communities, the lack of funding for the education in Black communities. There's no mention of mass incarceration. i mean, none of this is mentioned. It's like it's because the women are leading the families, um which is just of absurd, of course. But
00:44:42
Speaker
But what the what the report also doesn't include is that why are these families inherently matriarchal? um And a lot of that, of course, comes from the origins that we spoke about already.
00:44:55
Speaker
And i think there is this impulse to say, like, I'm so tired of talking about slavery. Like, what that was so long ago. But, you know, what I really wanted to show in this book is that it really wasn't that long ago.
00:45:08
Speaker
I mean, my grandmother was raised by enslaved people, people who had been enslaved, and she raised me. So think it's very clear to see that even though it was many generations ago,
00:45:22
Speaker
My grandmother moved from a cotton plantation. She was still a cotton tenant. in her youth um in Louisiana. And it was the same plantation where her family had been enslaved that just they became tenants.
00:45:37
Speaker
And she was raised by her, and and she lived with her great grandmother who had been born enslaved. So it's it's interesting that that erasure is like, there's an insistence on erasing that, but those lessons were very much passed down to me through my grandmother who received them in her youth.
00:45:57
Speaker
um And that's just my family. There's also like, and there's more kind of institutional things that are have been passed on and um cultural things. And there are so many different ways that we're still very much connected to that history and that that history is not just mine.
00:46:18
Speaker
um The idea that it's a black problem is something that I also wanted to kind of deconstruct because it's out it's all of our problem. It's impacting all of us. It's not just impacting Black people. It's impacting white people. It's impacting brown people who migrate here. So, yes.
00:46:36
Speaker
So, the report is is just a way to kind of go into the concept of an understanding that the families are matriarchal by nature, because that's how they were structured.
00:46:48
Speaker
That's how they always been structured. And the families were always separated, you know, to to not encourage bonding. So, you know, and the women had value because they were able to reproduce.
00:47:00
Speaker
So it's it's a dark history that I think we have to acknowledge in order to move forward. And I guess that's what the book is doing. It's like, look back and look forward and see how these histories are connected to our everyday experience today.
00:47:19
Speaker
And what's interesting is like, for example, here Philadelphia, Brooklyn, this super liberal place, um at the playgrounds, all of the nannies are Black.
00:47:31
Speaker
All of the nannies are Black. um There is a way that that feels like home, that feels like natural. You know, these women have children. There are so many people here from all over the world.
00:47:44
Speaker
why not Why not a Polish nanny? You know, why not? You know, why why do you feel so drawn to that? And I think it's you can read certain books and of women and it's just because that feels like home. That feels comfortable. That feels natural. It feels like the woman who raised that mother.
00:48:03
Speaker
um who then hired this woman, you know. And the South is can sometimes feel like it's very far away from the North as far as culturally. but i But I also wanted to kind of explore that in the book, that the South is is where the heartbeat of America is, as far as if you want to really see the truth, because it's less concealed.
00:48:25
Speaker
There's less shame and there's less of veil. So you can really see the histories of that in in the South today. for sure. I'd love for you to to describe the the generational evolution of motherhood in your family from from your your your grandmother you know to to your mom and to yourself. And it's how you you beautifully illustrate it in your book. But I'd love to hear you just you know just talk about that evolution from ah from Betty Jean to you know basically did to you.
00:48:58
Speaker
um Yes. So Betty Jean is my grandmother. As I mentioned, she was she she was a cotton tenant. And it's hard to imagine because I didn't know that part of her life. I only knew her in the city in Houston, which is very much a kind of metropolitan city and, you know, has like very large port.
00:49:25
Speaker
it's And it's Texas, of course, you know, so um There's a lot of industry. and my grandmother migrated as a part of the Great Migration to Houston and lived in this and urban enclave, which was one of the few places where Black people could buy homes and and and not just buy homes, but even rent homes and live there.
00:49:48
Speaker
She had 11 children. with nine different men and she refused to be married. She refused to what she felt like would be being tied down by a man or to be responsible for a man because in growing up on the plantation, she needed to take care of the men.
00:50:10
Speaker
It was her job. And when her grandmother died, she was the woman of the house and she had to drop out of school to take care of her grandfather and her brother. And I think that that really kind of radicalized her and made her say, I never want to be in this position again um because she loved school and and really was upset that her brother got to continue going to school while she had to stay home.
00:50:32
Speaker
And I think that that radicalized her. So when she decided when she decided to migrate, she decided that she wasn't going to be giving her life over to a man and dedicating herself to a man in the way that her grandmother had.
00:50:45
Speaker
And so um my mother was born in Houston and she had my mother in Houston. and And what's interesting is that I really do see them as being kind of like from it's almost like they're from different countries in that they speak different languages because my mother was a part of integration and um my mother was was raised during the affirmative action civil rights era. So it's an era where black people are saying, hey, now we actually deserve more.
00:51:16
Speaker
And my grandmother never really had that thought. I don't think she ever, she just kind of went along with this is the way that it is in this country. And then so my mother's faced with this idea of, my mother tells this story and this isn't in the book, where she was going to buy her first car and she bought she brought her mother with her.
00:51:37
Speaker
And the man at the car dealership who was selling the car was a white man. And he in you know he was telling my mother something that she knew wasn't true.
00:51:47
Speaker
And she said, I don't think that that's true. I don't think you can do that to me. And my grandmother shushed her and was like, that man knows what he's talking about.
00:51:59
Speaker
and and And my mother being so upset because she felt like, Why? Because he's a white man. He knows what he's talking about. Like he's, he actually doesn't. And so there's this way that my mom is kind of pushing back against the idea that whiteness is right and whiteness is the authority.
00:52:18
Speaker
And my grandmother kind of trying to shush her also because she knows there are consequences of pushing back against, against white men in a way that my mother doesn't have the context for. Right.
00:52:30
Speaker
Like my grandmother has seen people being lynched, you know, and she has seen her family members having to flee um the neighborhood or the the town in Bossier Paris where she's from in Ellen Grove.
00:52:44
Speaker
because of the threat of white men. So my grandmother has a different context and my mother's like, no, actually I deserve this. i I can fight for this. So there was this constant conflict which made my mother feel betrayed and it made my mother feel like her mother didn't support her, which they just had different different ideas about that. And so my mother raised me in that way of saying,
00:53:09
Speaker
Anything you want, you can have. Don't feel like because you're Black that you can't go after something. Don't feel like because you're Black that white people are always right. um You can also learn and you can also, you know, pursue whatever you want, but you have to work really hard for it.
00:53:25
Speaker
and it will be and you will be kicked and knocked down a lot along the way. And because of her own experiences, there's a chapter in the book called Railroads where I talk about her experience with affirmative action. and even in the 70s, there were still like,
00:53:41
Speaker
separate colored bathrooms and water fountains that she had to deal with at work. um And so she raised me in a completely different way. You know, she she raised me in an all-white suburb quite far outside the city and um wanted me to learn how to have whites speak, how to know how to navigate that because she struggled so much during integration.
00:54:05
Speaker
with that experience. And she, but there are so many things that come along with that that she couldn't have known about, you know, that she couldn't have anticipated. In the same way that I feel like a lot of my first generation friends, when they tell me stories, it sounds like my mother and she's from, she's from the U.S. So it's interesting because there's this kind of immigrant mentality that, that my mother has and the way she raised us.
00:54:34
Speaker
And that like, you have to do your best. You have to make all A's. Like I didn't fight to get you here so that you can be mediocre. You know, it's like, there's there's no, um the the expectation is that you you work hard and and you become the best and,
00:54:50
Speaker
and And that the idea of fairness and and is not real to her. She's like like, some of my friends would say, oh, that's not fair. And she's like, fairness doesn't mean anything. Like, what is fairness? Like, don't even say that word, essentially. She's like, you're going to have to fight.
00:55:06
Speaker
And she really kind of raised us as these real, like the idea of fighting. It's like, when you leave your house, you're fighting. and And it's this idea of constantly being in conflict and and being able to have an armor to protect yourself.
00:55:20
Speaker
And I think she wanted to help us build up an armor, but in that in that in that way, she was there was a lot of harm in that. in In trying to help us build that armor, there was a lot of harm and in in the building of those scabs.
00:55:37
Speaker
And so then there's me who who goes on to become a mother. And I decide that I'm going to do it in a different way.
Family Cultural Legacies and Motherhood
00:55:44
Speaker
But a part of the way that I was able to, that I'm able to raise my daughter is that I had to look back instead of this idea of looking forward and creating a new way.
00:55:57
Speaker
My way was more looking back and pulling from Betty Jean and pulling from my mother, the things that it felt really useful and really beautiful and trying to disentangle it from a lot of the fear that causes us to harm our children and um a lot of the violence that was a part of the ways that they were raised, unfortunately, in these really challenging, difficult times um and trying to extract that those things from the beauty and and put that into my daughter.
00:56:32
Speaker
Yeah, there's a moment later in the book where you your daughter talks back to you and you you call your mom for counsel and she was like, break her. You know, like, you know, and yeah it was a moment where you're like, that's not the counsel I want. But in that counsel, I got what I didn't want to do in ah in a sense. And that was like a really, you know, a major inflection point, really.
00:56:53
Speaker
Totally. Which is like, you know, direct language from the Willie Lynch letter. It's like you you have to break the man down in order to have enslaved people who obey you.
00:57:04
Speaker
And so the idea of breaking her, it's like it's like a one-to-one, you know, where that's coming from, this idea that you need to break people into submission in order to um raise them up in a way that that they can survive.
00:57:22
Speaker
Yeah, and there's also um ah what what struck me was, let's say, you know, your your mom had a real ah sort of adversarial relationship or like a conflicted and complicated relationship with your grandmother.
00:57:36
Speaker
um And so and when she saw the way your grandmother was saying, like, holding you or loving you, it's kind of like yeah she was, your your mother was seeing the love that she wished she had rained on you. And I think similarly, when you saw like, you know, your daughter in the hands of your mother, you're like, you're starting to see the love you craved, like skip a generation. i was just like, I don't know that it was that something that you just truly felt looking back, but also looking to your presence.
00:58:08
Speaker
Yes, totally, totally. i um it's It's still very complicated. it hasn't yet i see um a certain level of patience that my mother is able to have with my daughter that she still is unable to have with me. And I think that there's something about when a relationship has already kind of established its grooves.
00:58:28
Speaker
that it's harder to undo them than to start a new relationship. um And of course, there are still there are still ways that ah that my mother engages with my daughter that I don't agree with, but she's much more patient and much more gentle.
00:58:45
Speaker
um And she gets to show up as the person she is today versus the person she was 30 years ago when I was a child. and And, you know, a part of the love is forgiving and a part of it is also understanding that my mother will probably leave here and never be what I would like her to be, what I need her to be.
00:59:12
Speaker
And that's just going to have to be okay. um And coming to terms with that is really difficult. It's really challenging because I want to kind of try to shape it. I want like, like we can do this, let's make it better. um And kind of applying those same tools that we've applied to essentially our careers, which is like, work harder, work harder um to to our relationships, our intimate relationships. And sometimes that doesn't always work.
00:59:40
Speaker
But I saw my mother forgive her mother and accept her for who she is. And so I think in that, I was able to learn how to get there on my own. And and it's an it's an active It's an active learning. it's It's not like you arrive at the finish line.
01:00:02
Speaker
I'm still actively engaging with that. It's interesting to to witness a person with your child, how your mother can be with your child versus how she is with you.
01:00:15
Speaker
I imagine and that there probably could be, you know, some resentment in that too. Like, like, why couldn't you provide that for me? Like i desperately, I so desperately needed that. And like, and I can see you're capable of it, but you didn't give that to me.
01:00:33
Speaker
Right. i so I mean, there's so much resentment there and it's not just what I needed in the past. It's what I need today. i don't think that that ever, we're all kind of,
01:00:44
Speaker
something actually that Jira says, he's like, Sasha, we're all literally just nine-year-olds walking around in these big bodies. And he's like, I just treat people like that. Like, I just understand that they're just a nine-year-old. And like, I think that's really helpful. And we laugh about that, but it's true. I think that's really what we are ultimately. And so um and that way, I do still need that. But also I have to think about my mother's nine-year-old self and,
01:01:14
Speaker
And that allows me to have so much more empathy because I understand she was completely emotionally neglected. Like emotional care was just not available to her. And she never learned how to receive it. And she never really learned how to give it either.
01:01:32
Speaker
So with that, it helps to break down that resentment. very At the very start of our conversation, you were saying there were parts you loved writing and then parts you were very insecure about.
Favorite Lines and Literary Reflections
01:01:43
Speaker
And um yeah can you just take us to maybe what were some of those parts that yeah you really did love writing and then how you wrestle with the the tough stuff? You know, I can't say that there were sections necessarily. There were just certain sentences that I really was like, oh, I i got there. i got to that place that I wanted where I felt like this sentence is perfect.
01:02:06
Speaker
You know, yeah um um like there's a there's a sentence where I say all human malevolence is muscle memory. That sentence felt like it was something that I had been trying to say throughout the book. And then finally I got to it and I felt really good about that sentence.
01:02:26
Speaker
And I also, yeah, it's, I mean, it happens like once every few years or something, you know, it's so rare that I'm like, ah, I arrived, you know?
01:02:39
Speaker
And then of course you want to feel that you're chasing that that high all the time. um But I also really felt strongly about the prelude, the the kind of opening prelude, which I was able to write kind of, that kind of came to me all in one moment. I wrote that all at once, one one day, and it felt like i needed I needed that as a kind of foundational place for the book to begin.
01:03:05
Speaker
um And then i think the places where I struggled were in the In the places about my own life, I think I feel much more confident in creating a portrait of other people. Even in my work outside of the book, that's my job. Like that's what I do. I write a lot of profiles and I write about other people. So taking it and being able to create a portrait of myself felt a lot more challenging.
01:03:36
Speaker
So the part three section of the book was the last part that I wrote
01:03:42
Speaker
And it was the most challenging part um because I was also writing about my daughter and I was sensitive to how I wanted to do that. And then also writing about her father and knowing she's going to read this one day. And so trying to be delicate with that in a way, because, you know, I interviewed my mom, I interviewed my grandmother and my aunts.
01:04:04
Speaker
I never asked my daughter for permission, you know, and she's a child. So, She doesn't understand completely the the stakes.
01:04:15
Speaker
and And so that part was really challenging. The last part was challenging and also knowing where to end the book. It was really hard.
01:04:27
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, very nice. well Well, Sasha, as they bring these conversations down for a landing, i always love asking the guests for a recommendation of some kind. just like anything you're kind of happy about ah that you want to share that's bringing you some joy. So I would just extend that to you.
01:04:41
Speaker
any Anything? Anything. yeah Yeah. It could be, you know, a brand of socks, a cool fanny pack, a brand of coffee, like anything anything that's there god like, oh, this thing's making me pretty damn happy.
01:04:54
Speaker
Mmm.
01:04:57
Speaker
That's a great question.
01:05:03
Speaker
Pretty happy.
01:05:07
Speaker
huh
01:05:10
Speaker
I'm sorry. i know that I should have prepped for this, but I'm like, what does make me pretty happy right now?
01:05:22
Speaker
I would say
01:05:26
Speaker
I'm reading, well something that's bringing me a lot of joy right now is the um Nicholas Boggs Baldwin book. Oh, cool. I've got that on my, on my shelf to read.
01:05:38
Speaker
That, that book is bringing me, that book is bringing me a lot of joy. um because it's essentially Baldwin through the timeline of his loves, the loves of his life, which it's almost like, how could this book never have been written before? This is brilliant, you know? And um and the the reason that i am ah i i the reason that I am loving it so much is because I'm also very much in love.
01:06:11
Speaker
And you know, when you're in love, you want to like read about love all the time. And so i feel like I had this idea that love, similar to my grandmother, that love can be such a burden, such a distraction, it can get in the way of your work, it can get in the way of your process processing, it can get in the way of everything.
01:06:34
Speaker
and and as ah as And I've never been so in love as I am right now. And so in reading the book, I'm like, oh, I had it all wrong.
01:06:45
Speaker
the love is actually the thing that improves everything. And in in in the book, Baldwin is saying that kind of over and over again, he's like, the love is actually all we have.
01:06:57
Speaker
The love is the momentum and the power for everything we touch. It is, um you know, it helps with the writing, but it's also helps with how we love everyone around us and how we see the world. And And how we see ourselves like actually we can't see ourselves if we don't do love, because we're constantly being challenged and constantly we're mirroring each other. And it's that's the hard part about love really is is that and so this book is kind of.
01:07:27
Speaker
mirroring a lot of my experiences that I'm having right now, but also um it's showing me that I had it wrong the whole time. ah It's the other way around. And what a beautiful feeling in life to be wrong, um to to not know something because then it shakes up everything. The trees look different. The sky looks different.
01:07:47
Speaker
Everything that I thought was something is now something different. And so it it really awakens all the senses. And so I'm having, I'm, I'm, getting towards the end of the book and I'm really sad and I'm slowing down because I i don't want to finish the book yet. It's it's a brilliant it's a brilliant book and and i didn't know how much Baldwin loved love.
01:08:09
Speaker
I didn't know how much he sought love. And in in the book, he's kind of also constantly looking for love in places that don't love him back fully. And it's heartbreaking.
01:08:21
Speaker
But then in my instance, I'm like, wow, I'm so blessed that I'm able to experience this love that that loves me back in my lifetime. Because you see that that sometimes people are trying and trying and it and they never get there.
01:08:35
Speaker
And so in that way, um that's bringing me so much joy. Oh, fantastic. Well, Sasha, The Waterbearers is a masterpiece. It is it's such a brilliant book, and i'm I'm so glad that we got to have a conversation about it and how you go about the work.
01:08:48
Speaker
And um I look forward to a more conversations like this in the future as your work comes out in the in the years ahead. So just thank you so much for carving out the time, and thank you so much for the work you you've brought to the world.
01:08:59
Speaker
Thank you. i'm so grateful to be here. I appreciate you. Thank
01:09:08
Speaker
Awesome.
01:09:12
Speaker
Thanks to Sasha for coming on the show. That was very fun. I liked that. That was good. That was great. And thank you for listening as far, CNFers. Be sure you're following and are subscribed to the show wherever you dig your podcasts. And you can follow on Instagram at Creative Nonfiction Podcast.
01:09:29
Speaker
And there you can also maybe think about the newsletters, the Rage Against the Algorithm, and Pitch Club. Welcome to pitchclub.substack.com. And don't forget to possibly attend my History Pub talk on Monday, November 10th.
01:09:45
Speaker
If not, then I'll be doing something similar but a little different at HodgePodge Books, also in Eugene, on Thursday, December 4th. Both are at 7 p.m. And then I'm done. I'm done 2025.
01:09:58
Speaker
understood. i was talking to a hero of mine, truly a hero. And this was, uh, it was a virtual talk, of course, as most of these podcasts are. And sometimes maybe you shouldn't meet and talk to your heroes.
01:10:14
Speaker
ah but this one didn't let me down at all.
Preview of Upcoming Special Episode
01:10:17
Speaker
Uh, just an amazing, amazing person for episode 500. You'll hear that in a couple of weeks, November 21st, I believe is when I'm running that.
01:10:27
Speaker
Yeah, And way back when, when I'm going to use gender neutral pronouns so I don't tip my hand too much, ah when they were trying to break in, they wrote and reported several essays or not even essays, reported stories on spec.
01:10:43
Speaker
Meaning they didn't get a contract to go and pursue the story with any guarantee that there would be payment and accepted once the piece was done. Now, as journalists or freelance writers, the thought of writing with this degree of uncertainty, putting in all that work into something that might not be published, might strike us as a waste of time and resources.
01:11:07
Speaker
In theory, it it would be if you see it truly as ah the outcome, the only good outcome being publication. Of course, that's the goal.
01:11:18
Speaker
ah But as I've said on the show a number of times with respect to writing long features, you know why I got into this mess in the first place, it seems damn near impossible to make a living doing it.
01:11:30
Speaker
and Just with the contraction of magazines and websites and the folding up of magazines and websites with a seemingly fractured attention span that doesn't want to celebrate and put in the work to do great long-form stories.
01:11:47
Speaker
You have to treat treated as the way short story writers do, which is to say they don't expect to really make a living writing short stories. They do it for the love of craft, for love of story.
01:12:00
Speaker
And maybe getting getting those stories published gets them like teaching jobs and and whatnot. So you practice what you preach and you preach what you practice. I don't know. And they write stories and and try to shop them around once they're done and polished. And yeah, they might change a bit, but they submit them whole.
01:12:19
Speaker
Some of the best stories that come across the Atavist editors' desks are spec stories. and Why is that? Because they've done, the writer has done a lot of the hard work of getting access to key figures, of shaping a story.
01:12:34
Speaker
And the proof is in how they created something from their commitment to these stories. ah Many of the questions that Sayward and Jonah have for writers are often answered in a spec story.
01:12:46
Speaker
Do you have access to the people you say you have access to? Do you have access to these archives? Are you speaking from a place of certainty or a place of hope The former is what gets green lights.
01:12:58
Speaker
This is especially the case for those who might not have a great big body of work. Or if you really want to break into a specific publication, it might behoove you to do the spec work.
01:13:12
Speaker
And bet on yourself. You hear athletes sometimes in a contract year, maybe when they could ah sign elsewhere for a little less, but if they play out of their mind, they might even get a bigger contract. And they bet on themselves.
01:13:25
Speaker
If nothing else, it's great practice. On a great day, it might even lead to an acceptance, something that is really concrete that you can parlay into something else. And the real rub in journalism circles is getting sources on board for a story that might not be published.
01:13:42
Speaker
And the more high-profile the person, the less likely they're going to say, sure, I'll give you a few hours of my time with no certainty that I'll receive the publicity the story might grant me.
01:13:54
Speaker
And honestly, just as an aside, and this isn't in my script here, and I almost don't know why any high-profile athlete or celebrity signs up for to have a journalist write about them when they have more control of how they broadcast their message through their various social media platforms and everything.
01:14:15
Speaker
and It gets to maybe this ah this degree of affiliation that Seth Godin talks about, like You tug on the ego and the status like, oh, so-and-so got a cover story on Esquire. Like, I want to be on the cover of Esquire. i' like, that that's the juice for them, but that's not what I'm getting into here.
01:14:33
Speaker
You know, how do you lobby a person that they should talk to you or let you shadow them when you might not be able to confidently land the story with a major magazine or website? You can pitch them and say, I think your story fits the mold for this kind of publication.
01:14:49
Speaker
and we're going to go there first. If they say no, we're going to go right down the chain. You know, we're going to land this. You know, when what we put this thing together, it's a great story. You know, not everyone, there's subjectivity involved. And it might not land in the place that we ideally want it to, but I am confident it'll get somewhere.
01:15:05
Speaker
And maybe that'll work. That's how I would pitch them. Sometimes I think I could save time. It may be some frustration by doing more work on the spec side of the spectrum because I'd be getting better at my craft and I'd be doing the legwork necessary to lobby editors to take a bet on me.
01:15:23
Speaker
Now, doing the legwork lowers the odds in your favor. You want editors to be chalk-eating weasels. They are chalk-eating weasels. and what does that term mean? That's a term levied against bettors at the horse track who bet sure things, what's called chalk.
01:15:39
Speaker
And don't take the risk on longer odds horses who have a good shot at winning and a better payout, but there's more risk involved. Chalk is chalk for a reason.
01:15:51
Speaker
Editors love chalk. And to give them chalk, you need to do more research. You might even have to give them the entire damn thing. And if they say no, well, in a way, you still won.
01:16:04
Speaker
In a way. Because you just got a whole lot better in the process. And you have this thing you can shop around to other publications. Or you can throw it in your portfolio as an unpublished clip. Now, honestly, okay, yeah, it didn't get the the green light that you hoped.
01:16:19
Speaker
But... If I saw someone put that much work into something that is halfway decent, halfway competent, that wasn't published, I'd be like, this person is industrious and clearly has a love for it.
01:16:31
Speaker
yeah What might they do? What might they get done with the backing of an institution and a good editor? In a sense, that's what I'm doing with the next book. i And I have some longer magazine stuff in mind that I just might write the damn things and try to shop them around.
01:16:48
Speaker
But that takes focus and a kind of rigor I often lack. But also it's a headspace thing. you know Writing as if. Writing as if it's going to be accepted gives you the juice to to do it. But if you're writing with like, yeah this might not work.
01:17:03
Speaker
With the right, but yeah, with that kind of tone. Like, oh man, this might not work. You get mushy. You're not really all in. But if you're like, well, this might not work, but I'm going to write as if.
01:17:15
Speaker
That posture
01:17:19
Speaker
that That energy and posture, you bring that to your research, you bring that to your reporting, you bring that to your writing. I don't think it's possible for that energy not to palpate and levitate off the page, which will lead to more skill and ideally better bylines, more bylines and more money and beautiful women.
01:17:40
Speaker
Maybe what holds us some of us back is the fact that many of our heroes that we modeled ourselves after could make a go of this kind of work, be it on staff or just on pitches. And maybe like 0.001% of writers out there can do such a thing and be okay these days.
01:18:02
Speaker
But for the rest of us, a longing for days gone by just pisses us off. yeah We were schooled on a certain playbook and then spat into the world with that playbook in hand only to discover that this playbook has no forward pass.
01:18:19
Speaker
It's all fucking run plays up the middle with like leather helmeted Ivy Leaguers. This is some bullshit. That playbook is trash now. So we keep writing new ones.
01:18:32
Speaker
Okay? Okay. So stay wild, C&Evers. And if you can do interviews. See