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Episode 26 SUMMER SCHOOL: What is God really like? (Understanding the Trinity) with Patrick Schwenk
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Transcript
Introduction to Root Like Faith Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
I am so thrilled you're listening in with us at Root Like Faith. It is our deepest desire to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's word, transformed by the love of Jesus and moved by his mission in the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important.
00:00:19
Speaker
Well, on today's episode of Root Like Faith, we are answering the question, what is God really like?
Exploring the Nature of God and the Trinity
00:00:28
Speaker
Wow, I feel like we could all stand to listen to this episode. So we're wrapping up the summer series, answering this question and talking about the Trinity. This is going to be really good.
Understanding the Trinity: Personal Experiences
00:00:41
Speaker
Let's go.
00:00:43
Speaker
Well, hello there, friends. As Ruth has already mentioned, we are wrapping up our summer school series today. And so we're going to do so by talking about that question. What is God really like in particular? We're going to be talking about the Trinity. And so we're kind of ending with a bang. I mean, you'll notice that Ruth is not with me today. And so I'm flying solo, which is always kind of sad and, you know, lonely here, but you're with me. And so she is unable to join us today. She'll be back next week.
00:01:12
Speaker
So we're ending with a bang. We're ending with that question, what is God really like? In other words, what's up with the Trinity? And I don't know about you, but I mean, the Trinity is one of those doctrines that is the most difficult, I think, to understand. And so on some level, this is one of those doctrines that I think will just always live with a bit of mystery. You know, I came to faith in Christ at a pretty young age and I was, you know, reading the Bible.
00:01:36
Speaker
and interested in spiritual things as I've shared before at a pretty young age and I remember in high school really recommitting my life to Christ and in beginning to read and to talk to people and share my faith and I had a guitar teacher when I was in high school who was a Jehovah Witness and
00:01:54
Speaker
Jehovah Witnesses believe something very different about Jesus. And I remember getting in this conversation about the Trinity and feeling really ill prepared to have that conversation. And so this is one of those doctrines I feel like that no matter how long you've been following Jesus, no matter how long you've been a Christian, it's just really kind of tough to get your mind around. And so we're going to end this series, this summer school series by talking about the Trinity and hopefully
00:02:18
Speaker
Um, as we just kind of hit some highlights, this is helpful to you and hopefully I don't muddy the waters.
Engaging with Other Beliefs on the Trinity
00:02:24
Speaker
And so, um, anyways, I, I hope that this whole series has been really, really helpful to you. If you're just dialing in for the first time, then make sure you go back and listen to the whole series. We've had some incredible guests on that you've enjoyed those. We've talked about like, you know, is the Bible reliable? Uh, who is the Holy Spirit? Uh, we talked about spiritual gifts and are all those gifts even available to the church today?
00:02:48
Speaker
And so if you're joining us for the first time, make sure you go back and listen to the whole series. I really hope that it's been a great encouragement to you. And so we're going to be wrapping it up by, I think, talking about one of the most difficult Christian doctrines to understand, and that is the Trinity.
Historical Context and Core Doctrines of the Trinity
00:03:05
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You know, it was probably about 10, I don't know, 10, 11 years ago when I was serving as a pastor down in Toledo, Ohio.
00:03:12
Speaker
And we were having a pastor's hangout on a Friday night, and we were at one of the other pastor's homes. And I think we had just gotten done eating dinner. And we heard the doorbell rang. And so the homeowner, he went to the door and opened it up. And there at the door were two Mormon missionaries. And so these guys had no idea what they were walking into. They had no idea whose door they had just knocked on.
00:03:39
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And so he invited them in, and two hours later, we were still talking about Christianity, talking about the Bible, talking theology, and just had a great conversation with these guys. And so they were just incredibly kind and gracious and humble. But for two hours, we talked about their story and talked about the Bible and talked about theology and points of similarity and points
00:04:02
Speaker
of difference. And the Trinity was one of them. There was a significant difference. And those of you that maybe have friends or family that are Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons, you know that oftentimes what happens is that the same language is used. And so while, for example, a Mormon or Jehovah Witness would consider themselves a Christian, the follower of Jesus,
00:04:22
Speaker
They would oftentimes use the same language that we use, but they might mean something very different than what Orthodox Christianity has taught for the last 2,000 years. And that became especially clear as we were having this conversation with these two Mormon missionaries. And so while they use the word Jesus, use the word Holy Spirit, use the word Bible, use the word salvation, what they meant was very different than what Orthodox Christianity has taught for the last 2,000 years.
00:04:50
Speaker
Um, I want to just highlight a couple of things that I think are important for us to remember as we're thinking about, uh, this doctrine of the Trinity as we wrap up this series. You know, the word Trinity is a word that does not appear in the Bible. And so, um, it's a word that really was maybe the best word, uh, at the time to be used to describe what the Bible teaches. And so while the word doesn't appear in the Bible, it's really a word that, that expresses what the Bible teaches about the character of God or the nature of God.
Defining the Trinity: Essence and Nature
00:05:21
Speaker
There was a guy by the name of Tertullian who lived in Carthage, and I believe he lived in Carthage his whole life, but he was born somewhere in the middle of the second century, so kind of the 150s AD. And he's considered really the first guy to use that word, Trinity. He's, I believe, most often considered the father of the Trinity.
00:05:43
Speaker
And he was really writing and interacting with another Roman Christian teacher by the name of Praxius, if I'm saying his name right. And Praxius was a guy that was, again, trying to work out what the Bible teaches about the nature of God, who the Holy Spirit is, who Jesus is. And in the process, he ended up kind of coming up with a doctrine about the nature of God that is considered today, a heretical view of God.
00:06:09
Speaker
And so, Tertullian was really writing in response to what Praxius was teaching. There's a word called modalism that describes what Praxius taught, and it's basically the idea that God reveals himself in different modes. So, for example,
00:06:28
Speaker
a modalist today, which there are some still around in different corners of the church today, but a modalist would essentially say today that God has revealed Himself in different modes. And so sometimes God reveals Himself as the Father. Sometimes God reveals Himself as the Son. Other times God reveals Himself as the Holy Spirit. I mean, this is what Praxius was working out.
00:06:53
Speaker
And what he ended up coming up with, and there are still Christians today that would hold to that view of God, that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he reveals himself in different modes. That's what's known as modalism. And that view today goes all the way back to the second century and even before that.
00:07:13
Speaker
but it's most pronounced in the writings of Praxius, who again, Tertullian was writing against or with. And it was then Tertullian who helps us clarify, along with others, this teaching on the Trinity. And so if you are a history nerd like I am, that just a little bit of a historical background about how the conversation even began. And there's a lot more that we could say about that.
00:07:39
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But essentially, Tertullian is the first one to use that word, Trinity, is considered the father of the Trinity. And he was really writing and reacting to what Praxius and others were teaching on. Now, I want to give you a definition. I don't want to say it's a simple definition because it's not, but I want to give you a definition of what the Trinity is. And I'll say it a couple of times, and this is just one, maybe you just kind of go back right down and sort of think about and
00:08:05
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and mull over, but to say that God exists as Trinity is to say that there is one God with a unified essence who exists eternally in three co-equal and co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Scriptural Support for the Trinity
00:08:19
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I'll say that again. I know that's a lot to sort of take in.
00:08:22
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Don't tune out. Stick with me. But to say that God exists as Trinity is to say that there is one God. And so when we talk about the Trinity, we're not saying that there are three gods. We're saying that there's one God with a unified essence. In other words, God is one in His nature. God is one in His essence. And He's always existed eternally.
00:08:43
Speaker
as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, they're co-equal and they're co-eternal, meaning that the Father is not more God than the Son and the Son is not more God than the Holy Spirit. They're co-equal, but they're also co-eternal. There's never been a time when Jesus didn't exist as the Son or that there's never been a time when the Holy Spirit didn't exist.
00:09:05
Speaker
And so again, to say that God exists as eternity is to say that there is one God with a unified essence who exists eternally in three co-equal and co-eternal persons, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, to say that God is a person or that the Holy Spirit is a person or that the Father is a person, what we mean by that is that God thinks
00:09:28
Speaker
He feels, he acts, he speaks. And so what we see, for example, in the biblical teaching about the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit's not an it. It's not a force. It's not an impersonal force. But the way that the New Testament describes the Holy Spirit is with a personal pronoun as he and the Holy Spirit thinks, he discerns, he sets apart, he feels, he can be grieved. And so the idea of God being a person or the Holy Spirit
00:09:56
Speaker
Father being a person, what we mean by personhood is not so much that God has a body, but it's that God thinks and feels and acts and speaks. And so what you see throughout the Bible is that the Father is referred to as God, the Son is referred to as God, and the Holy Spirit is referred to
00:10:16
Speaker
God. That's been really the Orthodox teaching amongst both Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox for 2,000 years that God is triune. And by triune, again, they mean that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Now, I want to give you a couple
00:10:34
Speaker
passages of scripture to look up. And I'm going to link to these in the show notes. And so go back at some point and open up your Bible and dig into these verses and take a look at them. But I want to give you some passages of scripture that you can go to, first of all, that teach the Father is God. So John chapter six, verse 27.
00:10:55
Speaker
John chapter 17, verse three, or 1 Corinthians chapter eight, verse six, or 1 Peter chapter one, verse three. Those are all clear biblical teachings that the Father is God. Here's a couple that refer to Jesus as God. So Jesus is clearly called God throughout the scriptures. Matthew chapter 28, verse nine is one example. I always love to go to John chapter one, excuse me, verses one through four.
00:11:21
Speaker
is a great example. So John chapter 1 verses 1 through 4 is referring to the Word and how the Word became flesh and the Word was always with God and the Word was God and then you come to verse 14 and John tells us who he's talking about when he refers to the Word. He's talking about Jesus and the Word became flesh. It's one of the the clearest New Testament teachings that Jesus
00:11:46
Speaker
is God and he always has been God. And so John chapter 1 verses 1 through 4 is a great place to go as you're having that conversation with a friend or a family member. John chapter 8 verse 58 is another great example. John chapter 10 verses 30 through 33. Colossians chapter 1 verses 16 through 17. And then finally, here's a couple to look up later that are clear teachings from the Bible that the Holy Spirit is God.
00:12:13
Speaker
Acts chapter 5 verses 1 through 4 is a great example. It's the story of Ananias and Sapphira and how they sell some property and they keep some of the money for themselves. And there in that passage, the writer talks about how they've lied to the Holy Spirit. And then just a couple of verses later in verse 4, the writer says, you've not lied to human beings, but you've lied to God. And so this passage where
00:12:36
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Clearly the writer is saying you guys have lied to God and you've lied to the Holy Spirit, equating God with the Holy Spirit in those four verses.
00:12:48
Speaker
very clear teaching on the Holy Spirit being God. 1 Corinthians chapter 3 verses 16 through 17 is another example. In the Old Testament, we see references to the Holy Spirit being all powerful. Micah chapter 3 verse 8, or in the New Testament, Hebrews chapter 9 verse 14 talks about the Holy Spirit being eternal.
00:13:09
Speaker
Um, or Isaiah chapter 40 verses 13 through 14 talks about the Holy Spirit being all knowing or all present in Psalm 139 verse seven. And so again, I'm going to link to all of these passages in
Practical Applications of the Trinity Doctrine
00:13:23
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the show notes. So you have them, but these are just some of the biblical teachings that God is one in essence, but he is three in person that God, the father, God, the son, and God, the Holy Spirit are all called God. And while the.
00:13:38
Speaker
The word Trinity does not appear in the New Testament. It is the word that best describes what the Bible teaches about the very character of God. And so I want to end this episode today by just now turning kind of pivoting and getting a little bit more practical. You know, if Ruth were here, she'd be saying, OK, what is this?
00:13:56
Speaker
What does this mean? Like, why does this all matter? And so just we want to end in that way and talking about just talk about a couple very practical takeaways as we think about this doctrine of the Trinity. Now, here's one that that might take a little time just to sort of get your mind around and to wrestle with a little bit. But here's the first practical takeaway. I'll just offer a couple for us on the episode. But number one is this. It resolves the tension between God's love and his self existence.
00:14:26
Speaker
Um, I'll say it this way that there was always been love between the persons of the Godhead. So check out John chapter 17 verse five, verse 24. I mean, God is, is an eternal relationship and love has existed between the persons of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit for all eternity. And so there was always love between God, the father, God, the son, and God, the Holy Spirit.
00:14:52
Speaker
And so this doctrine of the Trinity really does explain how God can be eternal, but not solitary. So in other words, if God is just one and he's not three, then we have a little bit of a challenge in terms of how God can be loving. And so the doctrine of the Trinity explains how God can be eternal,
00:15:15
Speaker
but not solitary, that this loving relationship, this life-giving, self-giving, loving relationship has always existed between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. He's always had relationships, and expressing love is central to his character.
00:15:35
Speaker
And so one of the questions that they have to wrestle with if you don't believe in the Trinity is how can God be loving and personal without having relationships? And so this very question is really left unresolved in Judaism and Islam.
00:15:49
Speaker
Now here's another sort of practical takeaway for us. The Trinity really provides for us a basis for personal love relationships. So when you think about just our own desire to love one another and to know others and to be known, that really is a reflection of who God is in his character. And so because we're made in the image of God and because God is an eternal relationship,
00:16:14
Speaker
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it explains our longing for personal relationships, love relationships. And so the Trinity really provides for us an example and also a basis for the loving relationships that exist in our life, whether that's between a husband and wife, or in a family, or between friends, or within the local church.
00:16:35
Speaker
I mean, human-love relationships, they're not an accident. They really are a reflection of the very nature of God in ultimate reality itself. God is a community of love relationships. And so we bear the image of God in the way we relate to one another. Thirdly is this, that the Trinity provides for us a model or a basis for humility.
00:17:00
Speaker
When you think about the work of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it's the Father who really initiates salvation and He sends the Son. Jesus comes to accomplish the will of the Father. Jesus says, I didn't come to do my will, but I came to do the will of the Father. Jesus in great humility and
00:17:21
Speaker
submission to the Father obeys what the Father asks him to do. And he comes and out of love for the Father and love for you and I, he shows humility by coming to do the Father's will. And Jesus accomplishes the work of salvation on our behalf. He dies the death that we deserve and he goes to the cross and he suffers out of love for us so that we might be saved by our faith in him. But Jesus accomplishes that salvation that the Father initiates.
00:17:51
Speaker
And then the Holy Spirit applies that salvation. And the Holy Spirit, the scriptures teach, is always pointing people back to the work of Jesus. I mean, the Holy Spirit is a humble God and he's always working to bring about that work of salvation that Jesus accomplished for us on the cross. And he's sanctifying us and growing us and transforming us from the inside out. But one of the works of the Holy Spirit is he's always pointing us back to Jesus and who Jesus is and what Jesus has accomplished for us.
00:18:21
Speaker
And so we see great humility, not only love between the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit, but we also see great humility between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And so when we think about passages like Philippians 2 verses 5 through 11, where we're commanded to do nothing out of selfish ambition, but to consider others better than ourselves.
00:18:41
Speaker
You know, we're, we're commanded to be humble and to lay down our life for one another. I mean, all of that is a reflection of who God is or John chapter 16 verses 13 through 14. I mean, the Christian life, the way you and I relate to one another is a reflection of who God is and his very nature. He's a loving God, a self-giving God. And we see that between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, but he's also a God of humility, which we see again.
00:19:07
Speaker
in the relationship that exists between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And then maybe one more that's probably very closely connected to the last one we just talked about. But the Trinity is also a basis for unity. I mean, God is one, but He is three in persons. He's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So we see great unity in the nature of God, but we also see great diversity.
00:19:29
Speaker
But the Trinity really is a basis or an example for what it means to be in relationship with one another, to have a relationship that's not severed or not broken or divisive. I mean, we see great humility, love, but also unity that exists between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. And this is what we see, I think, you know, in the life of Jesus, when he's at the end of his public ministry, his earthly ministry,
00:19:58
Speaker
And as you already know, I mean, John chapter 17, he prays for the unity of his followers. I mean, that's Jesus's prayer in John chapter 17 is that you and I might be one as he and the Father are one. And so we see great unity in the very nature of God, the very character of God, that he's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And there's such a close intimacy.
00:20:21
Speaker
a great love and great humility, but unity that exists between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And that's what God desires for us. It's what he desires for his church. It's what he desires in a marriage, in a family, in a relationship with friends. I mean, God's heart is grieved when there's brokenness and division in the severing of relationships, whether that be in a marriage or a family or friendship, or even within the local church. And so what we see in this doctrine of the Trinity
00:20:50
Speaker
is something incredibly practical. We see unity and we see it as a basis for our own unity, that that's who God is and it's really what God wants for us. It's what God wants for our relationships with one another. And so those are just maybe a handful, I think, of very practical implications of this maybe heady doctrine of the Trinity.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:21:10
Speaker
Again, one that's really hard for us to kind of get our mind around fully.
00:21:13
Speaker
But it's also incredibly practical as we think about what it means to follow Jesus and to be in a relationship with him, to be in a relationship with other followers of Jesus. The Doctrine and the Trinity is also incredibly practical. And so I'm going to just going to stop there. I know that's a lot and I'm going to link in the show notes to these passages that I've just talked about.
00:21:36
Speaker
But again, I want to just thank you for joining us in this summer school series. I know it's been a very different kind of series than we've done in the past. And so hopefully it's been incredibly helpful to you. Hopefully it's, it's just enabled you to feel more equipped in what you believe and why you believe it.
00:21:52
Speaker
And so we'd love to answer any questions that you might have or if you've got maybe a question about a previous podcast that we did, previous episode, one of the guests that we had on, if there's a resource that we can point you to, don't hesitate to reach out, send us a message on Instagram or Facebook. And we'd love to just continue to see God further equip you and empower you to live the life that he's called you to live.
00:22:20
Speaker
Well, friend, we're so grateful you've joined us. If we haven't met yet, we want to get to know you. I love when you send messages to me on Instagram and introduce yourself. We want to know you because you're a part of our family here at Root Like Faith. So be sure to follow us on Instagram at Patrick W. Schwank and at Ruth Schwank, or you can also follow us on Facebook. We hang out there as well.
00:22:45
Speaker
Don't forget, everything we talked about today will be at rootlikefaith.com forward slash podcast. That's where we keep all the show notes for today's episode, as well as like any links that we mentioned. And you can see those for today's episode and for past episodes as well.
00:23:02
Speaker
Again, we welcome you into our family here at Root Like Faith and we would absolutely love if you left us a review or rating and shared this podcast with your friends. It just takes a second and it is a huge help to us as we spread the word about Root Like Faith. We love it. I mean, there are so many of you who are telling your friends about Root Like Faith and it's so fun. Be sure to tag us on social media when you do that. We're so grateful for your help in getting the word out.
00:23:30
Speaker
All right friend, well we will chat soon and we hope you have the best week.