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END OF YEAR THROWBACK: A Conversation with Luthier Paul Becker
14 Plays2 years ago
A top-tier orchestra might well have tens of millions of dollars–worth of instruments on stage. Many of them are antiques. And there are few people who know these instruments more intimately than Paul Becker. He’s the fifth-generation owner and director of Carl Becker and Son, a 150-year-old luthier business in Chicago. He and his family have restored the most famous instruments in the world, and they’ve put violins, violas, and cellos in the hands of many of the world’s finest musicians. In a wide-ranging conversation, podcast host Ben Miller and Becker delve into all things stringed—from the the way the timbre of ancient violins compares to their modern counterparts (and competitors), the market for fakes, and the unique relationship between musician and instrument. Tune in for some great stories, and some great violin music, courtesy of special guest—and Ben's mom—Katherine Lehman.
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Transcript
Historic Violin and Musician-Instrument Relationship Theme
00:00:06
Speaker
Hi, Ben here.
00:00:07
Speaker
Hope you are having a restful and comforting holiday.
00:00:10
Speaker
We at Curious Objects are taking this week off, but I wanted to share this episode with you, which we produced originally back in 2018, but which is still one of my very favorites.
00:00:20
Speaker
And it's fitting for the season, in part because I'm spending some time with my mom this week and she is actually in this episode.
00:00:29
Speaker
It's about one of the world's oldest violins, which is fascinating all on its own, but it's also about the relationship between musicians and their instruments and how these often very curious objects connect decorative arts and craftsmanship to the beautiful and powerful music that we hear from them.
Upcoming AMA Episode Announcement
00:00:47
Speaker
One other thing before we get going, next week's episode is going to be a special Ask Me Anything episode where I'll be answering questions from you.
00:00:56
Speaker
So if there's anything you've ever wanted to ask me about the podcast or about collecting or the antiques business, antique silver, storytelling, really anything at all, now's your chance.
00:01:06
Speaker
Send your questions to CuriousObjectsPodcast at gmail.com or alternatively, you can message me on Instagram at Objective Interest.
00:01:15
Speaker
We're recording this soon, so be sure to get this to me ASAP so I can include your questions.
00:01:21
Speaker
In the meantime, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and here is Making Music, a conversation with Luthier Paul Becker.
00:01:46
Speaker
Okay, I think that's
Interview with Luthier Paul Becker
00:01:48
Speaker
enough of that.
00:01:48
Speaker
Welcome back to Curious Objects and the Stories Behind Them, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
00:01:53
Speaker
I'm Ben Miller, and today's Curious Object is one of the oldest violins in the world.
00:01:58
Speaker
not the viola you just heard me a total amateur playing.
00:02:01
Speaker
But there is a connection, because both instruments actually pass through the hands of my guest for today's interview.
00:02:07
Speaker
There's something I want to do before we get to him, though.
00:02:10
Speaker
On this program, I've talked with people who have all kinds of fascinating old objects.
00:02:14
Speaker
But how many people can say they have a relationship with an antique that's as intimate as that of a musician and her instrument?
00:02:21
Speaker
I wanted to hear from a real live musician about what that relationship is like.
00:02:25
Speaker
Is your instrument more like a tool for you or is it like a pet or a friend or a lover or how would you characterize that?
00:02:35
Speaker
I don't want to anthropomorphize it.
00:02:39
Speaker
I don't have a name for my violin.
00:02:40
Speaker
Some people do.
00:02:41
Speaker
I don't think of it that way.
00:02:44
Speaker
It's less demanding than a pet.
00:02:48
Speaker
But it is something just, it's a deeply beloved object.
00:02:51
Speaker
I should introduce the violinist for you.
00:02:53
Speaker
That's Katie Lehman, executive director of the Boulder Philharmonic.
00:02:56
Speaker
She also happens to be my mother.
00:02:59
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:00
Speaker
I could say all sorts of great things about me and my son.
00:03:03
Speaker
That really won't be necessary.
00:03:05
Speaker
Your instrument actually came from my guest for this episode, Paul Becker.
00:03:11
Speaker
What was it like to search for that instrument?
00:03:14
Speaker
How many violins did you try before you settled on this one?
00:03:18
Speaker
Well, it was actually a somewhat unusual search because I had just started to think about getting a much better instrument.
00:03:26
Speaker
And of course, that's an extraordinary financial outlay.
00:03:28
Speaker
So I hadn't yet figured out quite how all of that was going to work.
00:03:32
Speaker
So I reached out to Paul and said, Paul, you know, I'm looking for an instrument and he knows my playing.
00:03:37
Speaker
He knows my personality.
00:03:39
Speaker
He said, fine, I'll keep my eye out.
00:03:41
Speaker
And then literally, I don't know whether it was a week or two later, he called me and said, I have your violin.
00:03:47
Speaker
Just exactly like that.
00:03:50
Speaker
I said, but wait, Paul, I don't have my financing in order.
00:03:54
Speaker
I'm just starting.
00:03:55
Speaker
This is supposed to be a many months or possibly years process.
00:03:59
Speaker
What do you mean you have my violin?
00:04:00
Speaker
He says, this can't wait.
00:04:02
Speaker
I have your violin.
00:04:04
Speaker
And he's not just being a salesman.
00:04:06
Speaker
He really knew.
00:04:08
Speaker
I wish there were a matchmaking service as effective as Paul.
00:04:11
Speaker
If there were, he would be a multi-billionaire, I'm sure, by now.
00:04:16
Speaker
This is one of the ideas I really wanted to try and unpack in today's episode.
00:04:20
Speaker
What does it really take to build that relationship between a person and, well, for branding's sake, let's call it a curious object.
00:04:28
Speaker
Do you think that there are
00:04:30
Speaker
personality traits that correspond to different qualities in a musician or in an instrument that's right for a particular musician and someone who's disposed to make a lot of jokes likely to like an instrument that sounds a particular way or is it more subtle than that?
00:04:48
Speaker
Is there something deeper rooted?
00:04:52
Speaker
I would say that it's very difficult to figure out a personality trait that matches a style.
00:04:58
Speaker
That's Paul Becker of the Chicago firm, Carl Becker and Son.
00:05:03
Speaker
But the right instrument exposes the person's inner emotions.
00:05:09
Speaker
And it doesn't always match their outer, what they put out there.
00:05:12
Speaker
And if you think this all sounds pretty abstract, well, Paul at least thinks it makes a big difference.
00:05:18
Speaker
Oh, it's amazing.
00:05:19
Speaker
You hear it across the hall or down the room.
00:05:22
Speaker
I can tell when someone really attaches to something.
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:06:07
Speaker
I'll just stop there.
00:06:08
Speaker
That'll give you a little bit of a sample.
00:06:11
Speaker
Oh, well, thanks, Mom.
00:06:12
Speaker
You're welcome.
00:06:14
Speaker
A top-tier orchestra might well have tens of millions of dollars worth of instruments on the stage.
00:06:19
Speaker
Many of them are antiques, and there are few people who know these instruments more intimately than Paul Becker.
00:06:25
Speaker
He's the fifth generation of a 150-year-old business.
00:06:29
Speaker
He and his family have restored the most expensive instruments in the world, and they've put violins, violas, and cellos in the hands of many of the world's best musicians.
Visit to Paul's Workshop in Chicago
00:06:37
Speaker
not to mention my mother and me.
00:06:39
Speaker
I wanted to learn what Paul was so excited about, so I took a little trip to the exotic land of Chicago.
00:06:46
Speaker
Ladies and gentlemen, Delta Shadow Alliance will welcome you to Chicago.
00:06:53
Speaker
Local time is approximately 9.30am.
00:06:55
Speaker
For your safety, it's 8.30am.
00:06:59
Speaker
First things first, I want to say a quick word about our sponsor, America's oldest auction house, Freeman's.
00:07:04
Speaker
Located in Center City, Philadelphia, Freeman's has been telling the stories of valued objects and collections since 1805.
00:07:10
Speaker
On April 29, Freeman's will bring to auction the collection of Doran's Dodo H. Hamilton.
00:07:15
Speaker
The venerable philanthropist's collection features fine European and American paintings, including works by Paul Cezanne, Daniel Garber, and John James Audubon, as well as furniture and decorative objects and jewelry.
00:07:26
Speaker
For more information, please visit Freeman's online at www.freemansauction.com.
00:07:46
Speaker
I went to Paul's shop in the Fine Arts Building, one of Chicago's great Art Nouveau icons.
00:07:50
Speaker
It's a block from the Art Institute, and the building itself has some pretty interesting history behind it.
00:07:55
Speaker
This used to be a restaurant all the way around here, but they've been restoring all the brickwork again.
00:08:02
Speaker
This was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright as he had to do the ceiling because he lost a bet.
00:08:11
Speaker
It's a cool building.
00:08:12
Speaker
That is very cool.
00:08:13
Speaker
We're going to do a sound check here.
00:08:15
Speaker
So just keep talking.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:18
Speaker
So Herman Macklett was the first of our family.
00:08:23
Speaker
He, uh,
00:08:24
Speaker
moved here from germany and he started a music store up on wabash avenue in chicago back in 1850 something okay old enough but in the 1850s he started a violin sometime before the civil war i took over from my dad who died in 2013. so i continued the business and and uh continue making and
00:08:50
Speaker
It's funny because I remember when, you know, I have a viola from you and you had brought a number of instruments down to Tennessee where I was living.
00:09:00
Speaker
And so I was able to try out a handful of different violas and bows.
00:09:05
Speaker
And I remember at a certain point you were, I think, talking with my mother.
00:09:10
Speaker
She was trying an instrument and you had told me to play around, pick up whatever I wanted, play it.
00:09:18
Speaker
And so I was going through instruments one after another.
00:09:21
Speaker
And then I picked up a viola and a bow and started playing.
00:09:26
Speaker
And after about a quarter of a second, I stopped and I started again and I stopped and I thought, this is amazing because the sound that it was producing was completely unlike anything that I had experienced.
00:09:40
Speaker
And so I started playing around on it a bit.
00:09:42
Speaker
And after 20 or 30 seconds, you came over and you said,
00:09:47
Speaker
what are you playing?
00:09:49
Speaker
And then you took a look at it and you said, oh, you can't have that.
00:09:57
Speaker
So it was a little above my budget.
00:10:00
Speaker
It was a little above my parents' budget.
00:10:03
Speaker
But I still remember the experience of playing that.
00:10:07
Speaker
It was really amazing.
00:10:08
Speaker
And I wanted to start out there actually because you have a...
00:10:12
Speaker
Very interesting violin here for us to talk about.
00:10:15
Speaker
But to kick things off, I just want to try to get a better sense about the relationship between the musician and the instrument.
00:10:25
Speaker
Most of the people that I talk with for this podcast are...
00:10:29
Speaker
buying and selling or handling in some capacity or other antique furniture, antique paintings, antique jewelry, pieces that certainly people might develop an attachment to.
00:10:41
Speaker
But maybe it's not the same level of intimacy as the relationship between a violinist and a violin.
00:10:49
Speaker
That is a very special connection.
00:10:52
Speaker
And I wanna dive into that and sort of, and see if I can better understand, if my listeners can better understand what that relationship really looks like.
00:11:02
Speaker
And so I just wanted to start out by asking, how do you go about matching a musician with the right instrument?
00:11:10
Speaker
I mean, there's price of course, but aside from that, how do you find the right qualities and the right features for the right player?
00:11:21
Speaker
very basic.
00:11:21
Speaker
It's done by listening and by opening up how I feel.
00:11:28
Speaker
Because music affects your emotions.
00:11:32
Speaker
So you have to be open in your emotions to create connections with your, with the players that you're working with and with the items that they're using.
00:11:44
Speaker
So there's a depth of knowledge for inventory to understand how each item works
00:11:51
Speaker
Our business and our family has always tried to make each instrument play at its best, not play according to what we wanted to hear.
00:12:00
Speaker
So it's, we've always worked so that I have this array of how instruments work and how they, how fast they play, how quickly they respond to vibrato, how clean their sound is compared to how dirty their sound is.
00:12:18
Speaker
And then I listen to that player play an example of an instrument that I'll start out with.
00:12:25
Speaker
And usually it will be an instrument we made so that I know the instrument very well.
00:12:30
Speaker
It'll be a Becker.
00:12:31
Speaker
These qualities you're talking about, the response to vibrato, is that a sort of an implicit idea or do you have charts?
00:12:41
Speaker
Do you have graphs?
00:12:44
Speaker
To what extent is that just something you're intuiting versus something that you're really sort of grading or measuring?
00:12:51
Speaker
Well, I like to say that measurements are the blood for inspiration.
00:12:56
Speaker
So we do an intense amount of measurements.
00:13:00
Speaker
But it is still the educated guess at the end.
00:13:06
Speaker
But the ones that are right make my heart swell.
00:13:11
Speaker
You can't help but hear it instantly when someone has the right item.
00:13:16
Speaker
And everybody in the room will know instantly that it's the right item.
00:13:21
Speaker
It just plucks the right emotional strings and it creates a sound that everybody wants to listen to, whether it be a scale or a phrase or a masterpiece that was written.
00:13:37
Speaker
It really doesn't matter because there is a connection to the person's soul that loves that exercise.
00:13:46
Speaker
And does it always work that way that when it clicks for the musician, everyone can hear it?
00:13:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's like we have a tecla cello that is being...
00:13:59
Speaker
purchased by the Mr. Lee who was buying it for the Detroit Symphony Orchestra for the principal cellist.
00:14:08
Speaker
And we're right in the middle of that.
00:14:10
Speaker
It's just finishing off.
00:14:12
Speaker
But when the principal cellist came in, he was looking for a cello that would sell for maybe $300,000 to $400,000.
00:14:23
Speaker
This was his budget.
00:14:29
Speaker
He was looking at things and he already played on a Galliano cello, which is probably the same price, but he wanted something that would project out in a principal position way.
00:14:41
Speaker
So we showed him what we had and then my salesman had played this wonderful David Teckler cello, it was made in 1770.
00:14:53
Speaker
100 and He said that's the cello for this guy.
00:14:58
Speaker
I said yes, but That cello sells for 1.35 million dollars.
00:15:03
Speaker
It's a little bit out of his budget And my salesman against my wishes took that cello and showed it to him and Made me pretty angry because how can this person
00:15:18
Speaker
quadruple his price range.
00:15:19
Speaker
Being a bit of a tease, isn't it?
00:15:20
Speaker
Of course.
00:15:21
Speaker
But the cello was not a nice sounding cello.
00:15:25
Speaker
The cello was a little, it's a little mean is the way to put it.
00:15:30
Speaker
Really?
00:15:30
Speaker
It has a little edge to it.
00:15:33
Speaker
Hans Jensen said that it sounded like a monster.
00:15:37
Speaker
A monster.
00:15:38
Speaker
And the player is one of the sweetest personality people, the kindest in every respect that you could ever meet.
00:15:48
Speaker
The cello he played on was a very sweet sounding voice.
00:15:53
Speaker
I would never have guessed that to be exactly right.
00:15:55
Speaker
But he showed it, he played it, and I was up against myself saying, what am I going to do about this?
00:16:01
Speaker
And that was last October.
00:16:05
Speaker
And now today, we've gone through a cycle of letting him play an instrument.
00:16:12
Speaker
That instrument, he played the all guard for the
00:16:16
Speaker
the orchestra he practiced on that cello for two weeks and He got one of these performances.
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah, they're really jump out of their seats playing the Algar.
00:16:26
Speaker
Yeah, and just in two weeks of practice the cello was his Wow, it was a wow, it was not pretty he had he struggled to understand it but That fight that took up took place created an immersion an emotional
00:16:45
Speaker
Volcano that came out of that place.
00:16:48
Speaker
I listened to this I went to the first rehearsal because I was very concerned he was going to try and play this piece in two weeks and that's just no no that's too fast and so I sat there to see if I needed to do an adjustment or something and He came out and it was their first rehearsal there in their jeans and t-shirts and very loose and
00:17:10
Speaker
He started to play and the A string sounded a little bit weak and C string didn't sound, it sounded really big and powerful.
00:17:19
Speaker
And I met him during the break.
00:17:22
Speaker
We were supposed to go to lunch and he said, uh, well, I, I, I love the cello.
00:17:30
Speaker
It sounds fantastic on the A, but the C sounds a little stiff.
00:17:35
Speaker
And I said, well,
00:17:37
Speaker
That's the opposite of what I heard.
00:17:39
Speaker
That's so funny.
00:17:42
Speaker
And the audience, the A was very weak.
00:17:44
Speaker
It definitely goes, well, I've been holding back on the A because it's so strong.
00:17:47
Speaker
And I said, well, I can hardly hear it.
00:17:49
Speaker
And the C string was booming everywhere.
00:17:51
Speaker
It was filling the hall.
00:17:52
Speaker
And that made him really concerned.
00:17:55
Speaker
He goes, you know, I've been practicing in a practice room and in my house.
00:17:59
Speaker
This is the first time I played it in the hall.
00:18:02
Speaker
So I said, I don't want to go to lunch.
00:18:03
Speaker
He decided to practice through lunch.
00:18:06
Speaker
came back for the second half of the rehearsal and he played this.
00:18:14
Speaker
He started to play and play the A string and it was coming out stronger and stronger and stronger and the C string was just the same.
00:18:25
Speaker
But all of a sudden it felt like it was blowing my hair back.
00:18:28
Speaker
It just screamed out in that hall.
00:18:33
Speaker
And they played through the all guard and the orchestra stood up and gave them a standing ovation in their t-shirts and jeans and the conductor was tapping his baton.
00:18:44
Speaker
That's not a common thing for an orchestra.
00:18:46
Speaker
No, that's not where you get your standing ovation.
00:18:48
Speaker
It's not during a first practice.
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:52
Speaker
And I met him after that performance because you know that cello
00:18:58
Speaker
As I pushed on it and as I played this, it just helped me.
00:19:02
Speaker
This cello helps me.
00:19:04
Speaker
And he goes, it's not my personality, but it brings something out of me.
00:19:12
Speaker
And everybody recognized it.
00:19:15
Speaker
And so he had to have that cello.
00:19:17
Speaker
So the orchestra went through a fundraising thing for their nonprofit to try and buy this cello for him.
00:19:25
Speaker
We got the time from the owners to
00:19:27
Speaker
allowed this to happen and finally a gentleman came through and was buying this cello for him.
00:19:32
Speaker
So in the end, he's ending up with this cello despite all the barriers that we ran into and every time he gives a performance he's getting these overwhelming responses for his play.
00:20:11
Speaker
Paul and his colleagues don't just buy and sell instruments.
00:20:13
Speaker
They also make new ones.
00:20:15
Speaker
And they use some of the great instruments they've worked on over the years as models for their own creations.
00:20:20
Speaker
Why don't we take a little wander around?
00:20:23
Speaker
You can show me some of your tools, some of your setups.
00:20:27
Speaker
Maybe I'll snap a couple of pictures if you don't mind.
00:20:29
Speaker
No problem.
00:20:31
Speaker
OK.
00:20:34
Speaker
So I'm just going to carry this around in case someone says something interesting.
00:20:45
Speaker
So I feel like I've just stepped into a safe deposit vault in a bank.
00:20:51
Speaker
Paul took me on a walk around his shop, which is full of instruments in various states of construction and restoration.
00:20:58
Speaker
So you have, it looks like there are a dozen or so cellos in here, probably 50 violins.
00:21:09
Speaker
There's more like about 200.
00:21:10
Speaker
Oh really?
00:21:13
Speaker
And those are violas down there.
00:21:14
Speaker
Okay.
00:21:15
Speaker
Paul showed me some of the firm's files, generations worth of precise diagrams of incredibly rare and valuable instruments.
00:21:22
Speaker
There were blueprints showing the thickness of the wood of a violin at every point across its surface.
00:21:27
Speaker
They actually looked a lot like navigational maps, which makes sense when you consider that Paul's father was a pilot in World War II.
00:21:34
Speaker
He also showed me their off-site workshop.
00:21:37
Speaker
That's where they do the rough cutting.
00:21:47
Speaker
I like making furniture, so I also have some of those tools.
00:21:53
Speaker
It's mostly stringed instruments, of course, but given Paul's expertise with wood, maybe it shouldn't come as a surprise to see him meddling with some very old furniture.
00:22:00
Speaker
Those are pretty valuable.
00:22:01
Speaker
Henry VIII, huh?
00:22:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:03
Speaker
Wow.
00:22:04
Speaker
Now you don't see too much furniture from the 15th century.
00:22:09
Speaker
No.
00:22:11
Speaker
I've heard, is it true that some of the old violin makers were using wood that had been chopped many years before?
00:22:20
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:22:22
Speaker
I've got some wood from 1480.
00:22:25
Speaker
It comes out of an old church.
00:22:28
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean, we're wood collectors.
00:22:31
Speaker
We go way back.
00:22:32
Speaker
Yeah, we've collected wood.
00:22:40
Speaker
Paul was moving things around the workshop while we talked.
00:22:43
Speaker
I was asking him about how different woods affect the instrument and why very old woods are often sought after by luthiers.
00:22:50
Speaker
I mean, what is physically happening to the wood over time?
00:22:55
Speaker
Why is it useful to have old wood?
00:22:57
Speaker
It's like the walnut.
00:22:59
Speaker
When they cut walnut these days, they kiln dry it because they want to get it ready for the market quick.
00:23:05
Speaker
So they steam it.
00:23:07
Speaker
And it does two things.
00:23:09
Speaker
It gets the sap out of the wood quickly, but it also makes all the colors steam through so it turns into one color.
00:23:20
Speaker
So walnut doesn't really grow that way.
00:23:22
Speaker
Walnut looks a lot like rosewood where you have white next to dark and there you have streaks through it and these purples and reds and when you think about walnut you're thinking of brown color but that's not true in a walnut.
00:23:35
Speaker
If you look at that, that has the streaks like mahogany and old rolled walnut.
00:23:42
Speaker
Paul has accumulated a collection of multiple tons of wood over the years, enough, he says, to make 3,000 violins.
00:23:50
Speaker
Some of it is extremely old.
00:23:52
Speaker
But the way he works the wood is different from the old masters.
00:23:56
Speaker
Paul actually incorporates a computer-guided router to form the rough shape of each piece.
00:24:01
Speaker
This is what I machine a scroll to before I carve it.
00:24:05
Speaker
It just gets rid of some of the rough wood.
00:24:07
Speaker
but he still relies on his own hands for the more sensitive parts of the process.
00:24:12
Speaker
Tell me about hand crafting versus mass production.
00:24:19
Speaker
Well, mass production could work just fine if the person behind the design understands.
00:24:27
Speaker
And you can bring it down to a very small window of what works, but still it's never going to have that...
00:24:37
Speaker
that perfect refinement to get that last bit of human voice in it, regardless to what you do, you can get it close, you can get it to respond well, you can get it to be stable if you use the right materials, if they're aged long enough and you can go a long way with modern technology.
00:24:56
Speaker
I mean, you can make exact copies of things, but still not the same piece of wood and it's still not the same varnish.
00:25:03
Speaker
Little differences can make a huge amount of difference.
00:25:07
Speaker
are very very good at measuring uh our instruments we right now i'm i'm working to a tighter tolerance than dad did and he used to work to a half a tenth of a millimeter half of a tenth of a millimeter yeah half a tenth of a millimeter was his tolerance that's what uh wood thickness less than a finger modeling oh it's less than a human hair less than a human hair yeah wow grandpa used to use his fingers but he
00:25:33
Speaker
He didn't even have a caliper to use.
00:25:36
Speaker
He'd use his fingers, but when we measure some of his older instruments, he's within one-tenth of a millimeter in all the measurements.
00:25:43
Speaker
He was incredibly accurate because of how sensitive his touch and his eye-hand coordination was.
00:25:49
Speaker
He was very, very good with the way it felt.
00:25:56
Speaker
So I was taught how to measure, how to feel, how to see.
00:26:02
Speaker
and how things sounded as you were cutting on them as to what to do.
00:26:09
Speaker
So it's, you have to use all of your senses to create a violin that works.
00:26:16
Speaker
Unfortunately, no matter what I do, some things sound great, then another one will sound not as great.
00:26:23
Speaker
And it's on the same wood, same bass bar, a little bit of difference in spring.
00:26:28
Speaker
And what you think is going to happen doesn't always happen.
00:26:33
Speaker
It's somewhat predictable.
00:26:36
Speaker
You can get close.
00:26:37
Speaker
but you cannot achieve 100%.
00:26:40
Speaker
So you're not afraid that robots are going to take your job.
00:26:45
Speaker
I'm not worried about that.
00:26:47
Speaker
People think because I use these machines to start off that mine can't be as good in certain respects, but that is not accurate.
00:26:58
Speaker
without the intuition in the end they wouldn't have a voice that they have and so they're still made entirely by hand so automation will take you to a point but it will never finish the product.
00:27:12
Speaker
Yeah, this is maybe an impossible question but how many hours start to finish do you put into an instrument?
00:27:24
Speaker
When I was learning it took me 200 hours.
00:27:28
Speaker
start to finish for a violin.
00:27:31
Speaker
Now that I'm much experienced, I get it done in about 80.
00:27:36
Speaker
That's still quite a lot of time.
00:27:40
Speaker
You're going to have to ramp it up if you want to.
00:27:58
Speaker
Let's take a quick break.
00:27:59
Speaker
Coming up, we'll hear about one of the great old instruments Paul has been restoring and how it's different from modern violins.
00:28:06
Speaker
We'll also talk a bit about the sensitive subject of fakes and forgeries.
00:28:10
Speaker
And my mom might even squeeze in another word.
00:28:13
Speaker
Stay with us.
00:28:14
Speaker
Once again, I'd like to thank our sponsor for this episode, America's oldest auction house, Freemans.
00:28:19
Speaker
Located in center city, Philadelphia, Freemans has been telling the stories of valued objects and collections since 1805.
00:28:26
Speaker
With international experience and comprehensive knowledge of market conditions, the Special Asset Freemans work closely with consignors and collectors to offer unparalleled assistance in the sale and purchase of fine art, furniture, decorative arts, jewelry, books, and more.
00:28:42
Speaker
On April 29, Freemans will bring to auction the collection of Doran's Dodo H. Hamilton.
00:28:48
Speaker
Upcoming auctions in May include Modern and Contemporary Art on May 8th, Fine Jewelry on May 9th, British and European Furniture and Decorative Arts on May 22nd, and on May 23rd, a special sale entitled Gentleman Collectors, the Lucas Family of Baltimore.
00:29:04
Speaker
For more information, please visit Freeman's online at www.freemansauction.com.
00:29:13
Speaker
I also really want to thank you for listening and for sending me your feedback.
00:29:18
Speaker
I'm always looking for new ideas and suggestions.
00:29:21
Speaker
And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, subscribe, rate us on iTunes, and tell your friends to listen.
00:29:28
Speaker
Let's get these stories out there in the world.
00:29:30
Speaker
Okay, let's get back to
Historic Instruments and Their Significance
00:29:32
Speaker
Paul.
00:29:32
Speaker
You have a very interesting violin here for us to talk about.
00:29:36
Speaker
So this is Amadi.
00:29:37
Speaker
That's right.
00:29:37
Speaker
It's a violin that's made in 1620.
00:29:38
Speaker
1620.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:39
Speaker
He was the son of Andre Amadi, who was the grandfather of violins.
00:29:54
Speaker
Right, because the modern violin really was just coming into being around this time, right?
00:29:59
Speaker
That's right.
00:30:00
Speaker
So these are the earliest examples of the modern violin.
00:30:05
Speaker
This instrument's made by Antonio and Hieronymus, which are the sons of Andre.
00:30:09
Speaker
Okay.
00:30:11
Speaker
And Andre is the one you're referring to as the grandfather of the violin.
00:30:16
Speaker
Exactly.
00:30:17
Speaker
He worked in Brescia.
00:30:19
Speaker
and was thought to work for Gaspar Di Salo.
00:30:21
Speaker
He made the first violin-sized instruments.
00:30:24
Speaker
Before that, he was making their violas.
00:30:27
Speaker
Violas are actually before violins.
00:30:30
Speaker
And when you say viola, are you talking about a viola da gamba or what kind of instrument are you describing?
00:30:38
Speaker
Yes, a lute is one.
00:30:42
Speaker
Which our name comes from, luthiers.
00:30:44
Speaker
Right.
00:30:45
Speaker
I never put that together.
00:30:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:47
Speaker
So a lute is the predecessor to the viola, if you will.
00:30:53
Speaker
And from there came the violin by Andre Almaty.
00:30:59
Speaker
And then...
00:31:00
Speaker
came his two sons, Antonio and Hieronymus, who made these instruments.
00:31:05
Speaker
The one I hold in my hand is one that traveled to Russia and was played there for most of its life.
00:31:14
Speaker
Really?
00:31:15
Speaker
Yep.
00:31:16
Speaker
It has a great deal of its originality.
00:31:19
Speaker
It's original in all its parts.
00:31:22
Speaker
Does that include the neck?
00:31:24
Speaker
The neck is replaced because it was a Baroque style neck.
00:31:28
Speaker
Right, which are shorter.
00:31:30
Speaker
So they're shorter and a steeper angle and as a result it had a different projection to its sound.
00:31:39
Speaker
Ah, right.
00:31:40
Speaker
And they call that a modern setup which is...
00:31:43
Speaker
basically something that started in 1780 was the modern violin.
00:31:49
Speaker
Modern being a relative term.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:52
Speaker
So, so, uh, this was a Baroque setup though.
00:31:56
Speaker
It had traveled to Russia and, uh, was involved very interestingly in a stagecoach accident where it had run over the case and
00:32:06
Speaker
and put a series of stagecoach ran over the violin case and broke the instrument into smithereens on the lower end oh no and so it went through a huge restoration job which and what what are we talking about here i can show there's there's a whole series and it ran across right here wow and so it has a series on the top that matched the back yeah
00:32:32
Speaker
and uh otherwise it survived quite well okay it has this like track of cracks from a stage coach that's that actually you know it's funny i mean we we sometimes have um
00:32:47
Speaker
You know, in the silver trade, of course, you see damaged pieces all the time that have been repaired.
00:32:51
Speaker
And usually that detracts from the value.
00:32:53
Speaker
But sometimes if the damage has a story behind it, like the tankard that had a hole shot through it by a musket ball during the Revolutionary War, you know, that actually can add value.
00:33:05
Speaker
to the piece.
00:33:06
Speaker
I don't know in this case.
00:33:07
Speaker
It doesn't add value, but it is a neat story.
00:33:12
Speaker
I don't have any other instruments that were run over by a stagecoach.
00:33:15
Speaker
Really?
00:33:15
Speaker
This is the only one?
00:33:17
Speaker
The only one I know of.
00:33:18
Speaker
So it's great.
00:33:19
Speaker
I love saying it.
00:33:21
Speaker
And the instrument's gone through a tremendous restoration.
00:33:25
Speaker
So the restoration was done skillfully, I assume.
00:33:28
Speaker
And it was done in Russia at the time.
00:33:31
Speaker
And how long ago was that done, do you think?
00:33:34
Speaker
That was done, I believe, in the late 1800s.
00:33:39
Speaker
Oh, right.
00:33:39
Speaker
You know, the 1870s, 60s, somewhere in there.
00:33:44
Speaker
So even at that time, this would have been considered a valuable enough instrument to warrant a really significant amount of labor to restore it.
00:33:53
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:33:54
Speaker
And I certainly respect the work they did.
00:33:58
Speaker
So I had the opportunity to
00:34:00
Speaker
to do some work on this instrument myself, uh, that, that, uh, basically restored some, uh, about three or four open cracks, but I was able to really review the work that was done and it was perfectly fine.
00:34:17
Speaker
There was, there was nothing wrong with it.
00:34:18
Speaker
So I was able to really study this instrument inside and out and what a tremendous, you know, I just loved working on it.
00:34:27
Speaker
It was,
00:34:30
Speaker
I made patterns of it so that I can make a copy of it like my grandfather did.
00:34:34
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:34:35
Speaker
A bench copy.
00:34:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:37
Speaker
Well, the whole thing is, I mean, it's I don't look at enough violence on a daily basis to, you know, to be able to point to exactly what differentiates this.
00:34:45
Speaker
But it's certainly an attractive and proportional piece and the color of it is spectacular.
00:34:52
Speaker
Yeah, and that's one thing.
00:34:53
Speaker
I mean, it looks like an old piece of furniture, like a really excellent piece of 17th century furniture.
00:35:00
Speaker
The patina, the color, it's wonderful just as a visual object.
00:35:06
Speaker
Right.
00:35:06
Speaker
I mean, it's got a tremendous amount of original varnish and the finishes has really survived.
00:35:13
Speaker
What does it sound like?
00:35:15
Speaker
It sounds fantastic.
00:35:17
Speaker
It has a full open voice, responds very quickly.
00:35:22
Speaker
Tonally, it deserves a great reputation.
00:35:26
Speaker
Do you have a bow around?
00:35:28
Speaker
I'm not a player.
00:35:29
Speaker
So that's not going to happen.
00:35:33
Speaker
Oh, that's a shame.
00:35:35
Speaker
So I need to cut in here and say that sadly, we don't get to hear the Amadi being played today.
00:35:41
Speaker
I talked about that with Paul, and he made the point that without time for a professional violinist to grow accustomed to it and a studio recording environment, it just wouldn't sound its best.
00:35:51
Speaker
And I get it.
00:35:53
Speaker
Perfectionism is a pretty important part of the business, and that goes for a lot of dealers.
00:35:59
Speaker
What are some common misconceptions that people have about your business or your industry?
00:36:09
Speaker
That older is better.
00:36:11
Speaker
That's not true.
00:36:14
Speaker
I've proven that over and over again.
00:36:16
Speaker
You do not have to play things in to get them to sound better.
00:36:20
Speaker
I think that's a big misconception.
00:36:22
Speaker
The modern instruments do take on a voice.
00:36:25
Speaker
The complexity is difficult to understand.
00:36:29
Speaker
Some of these old instruments, they've achieved that complexity.
00:36:35
Speaker
You can get that in modern instruments, but people don't come in droves to see a Becker violin being played as a solo instrument.
00:36:45
Speaker
They will come in droves to see an Antonio Stradivari.
00:36:50
Speaker
being played for people to witness.
00:36:54
Speaker
It's half the instrument and half the player in many instances that draw the crowd.
00:37:00
Speaker
And I wonder, I mean, should people be coming in droves to see a Becker?
00:37:05
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:37:05
Speaker
They sound terrific.
00:37:07
Speaker
They work.
00:37:09
Speaker
They fill a hall.
00:37:12
Speaker
they can create all these complexities in sound that you get from the old Italians because that's who we learned from.
00:37:20
Speaker
My grandfather learned from restoring old fine instruments.
00:37:25
Speaker
And there was an Amati cello that he restored and he made a cello alongside that Amati cello.
00:37:31
Speaker
A copy of that cello, that's how he learned how to make
00:37:37
Speaker
His instruments.
00:37:38
Speaker
And someone from the Chicago Symphony came in and saw the cello that grandpa had made and left.
00:37:49
Speaker
And that had come back the next day and grandpa was actually delivering the real Amadi to the member of the Chicago Symphony that was playing it.
00:37:58
Speaker
And he was playing it and he called out to that man that walked in and said, Hey, how does the cello sound?
00:38:05
Speaker
And he goes, Oh, it sounds fantastic, but you can tell it's new.
00:38:09
Speaker
So that was a great, that was a great moment.
00:38:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:17
Speaker
For my grandfather.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:19
Speaker
This made it seem like it might not be too difficult to trick someone into thinking that a new instrument was actually an extremely valuable old one.
00:38:28
Speaker
I wanted to ask Paul about fakes and forgeries.
Dealing with Fakes and Forgeries in Violin Making
00:38:31
Speaker
This next part was recorded in the workshop, so the sound quality is a little rough, but Paul had some pretty interesting thoughts about the issue, so bear with me.
00:38:40
Speaker
What kind of a market is there for fakes and forgeries in the instrument world?
00:38:46
Speaker
I mean, are there a lot out there?
00:38:48
Speaker
Are they hard to identify?
00:38:52
Speaker
Well, some people, that's how they make their living.
00:38:56
Speaker
A violin maker will, like Douglas Cox from Vermont, does it regularly, copies instruments, puts that label in, a facsimile of the original label, along with his label, that this is the violin he copied.
00:39:10
Speaker
And he tries to match the wood, antique marks, everything.
00:39:16
Speaker
Would I ever get fooled by it?
00:39:18
Speaker
No.
00:39:19
Speaker
I mean it just does not have the patina that you have in these old instruments.
00:39:25
Speaker
It's fake, you know it.
00:39:28
Speaker
Someone else might get fooled by it.
00:39:30
Speaker
No.
00:39:30
Speaker
Not anyone that has any level of expertise.
00:39:35
Speaker
It's not what it's meant for.
00:39:37
Speaker
So they make copies basically for the modern musician and he sells his stuff for $20,000 compared to
00:39:45
Speaker
two to six million, you know?
00:39:47
Speaker
So, yeah, but they don't sound the same.
00:39:50
Speaker
It is not an exact copy.
00:39:53
Speaker
So you would say it would be more or less impossible to make a really convincing... No, it's been done.
00:39:59
Speaker
It's like Fent did it.
00:40:02
Speaker
He took a Strad cello and took the top off, made a new top for the ribs and back, and then made a back and ribs for the new top and made two strads out of one.
00:40:12
Speaker
And that's an easy one.
00:40:13
Speaker
And it was convincing.
00:40:15
Speaker
He did it and sold it.
00:40:17
Speaker
How did it get discovered?
00:40:18
Speaker
Because both cellos got put together at the same time.
00:40:23
Speaker
And then they figured it out, Charles Beer figured it out actually.
00:40:26
Speaker
So it was kind of... The Wohler brothers would copy instruments so well, that was their downfall because they copied every imperfection in every instrument.
00:40:38
Speaker
When it's really only a number of imperfections per instrument and they just...
00:40:43
Speaker
put it all in each instrument, that's how they got figured out.
00:40:48
Speaker
And there's a few other, those are the most famous.
00:40:53
Speaker
Those are the great ones.
00:40:55
Speaker
When you realize that if you have a German copy of a Guarneri compared to a Guarneri, I mean that's an eight million dollar mistake.
00:41:02
Speaker
Right.
00:41:03
Speaker
That's scary.
00:41:05
Speaker
I don't need the business that unsure.
00:41:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:08
Speaker
And as you say, I mean, who's to say?
00:41:12
Speaker
Exactly.
00:41:25
Speaker
I started out in this episode trying to understand the relationship between a musician and an instrument, but it's becoming clear that the relationship isn't really a duet.
00:41:35
Speaker
It's a trio.
00:41:37
Speaker
The musician uses the instrument to create something wonderful, but the instrument itself is something wonderful on its own terms, a work of art created by the luthier.
The Musician, Instrument, and Luthier Relationship
00:41:46
Speaker
And of course, there is even another partner in this relationship, you and me, the audience.
00:41:52
Speaker
The ultimate craftsmanship of a person like Paul consists in his ability to tie it all together, from the wood and the measurements to the mood and the sound and the personality.
00:42:04
Speaker
to bring about a moment of beauty and wonder?
00:42:09
Speaker
I think we have a unique business in this respect.
00:42:14
Speaker
Violins in their construction are considered art, sculpture work or artwork.
00:42:22
Speaker
However, true art can't be used.
00:42:26
Speaker
So it's the only artwork that is usable that creates another art.
00:42:33
Speaker
Well, I will say as a silver dealer, I take exception to that because I would say that, you know, a lot of what we buy and sell is sort of in a similar category.
00:42:42
Speaker
And when we see a coffee pot, a silver coffee pot in a museum, it can be lovely and it's nice that people get to see it.
00:42:49
Speaker
But it can also feel like a bit of a shame that it's never going to have coffee in it again.
00:42:56
Speaker
What I mean by what I'm saying is that
00:42:59
Speaker
that you get a violin construction is a beautiful piece of sculpture work.
00:43:06
Speaker
Sure.
00:43:06
Speaker
You can put it that way.
00:43:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:07
Speaker
Inside and out, and it has a function.
00:43:11
Speaker
Without a player and a luthier working together, they can't create the sound that turns into another art form.
00:43:20
Speaker
So a violin is then played to create...
00:43:24
Speaker
another art form that you can only hear you can't keep even recordings don't capture uh what happens in a performance which is the true art form you get a you get a fine musician and you remember probably five great performances in your life that you've heard
00:43:46
Speaker
where people just jump up and applause and and and they are screaming out of their seats because it's such a fantastic performance yeah and everybody will remember that for the rest of their lives yeah but if you think about that that's you know if you get to 10 you're amazing but if you have five performances in your lifetime of those kinds of things think of the musician how many times they've played those pieces and they get those reactions
00:44:16
Speaker
very few times in their life and they have studied they have practiced eight to ten hours a day they have studied for 16 years and they've tried to pursue playing gigs and all kinds of situations to get into the situation to play a performance and then only have one out of 500 that create that it's it's an amazing amount of effort that goes into that one performance
00:44:46
Speaker
to get that one that everybody remembers.
00:44:49
Speaker
Wow.
00:44:50
Speaker
And it's there's nothing else like it.
00:44:52
Speaker
Makes me think about an astronaut, you know, spending years of training to go around the earth a couple of times and come back down again.
00:44:59
Speaker
Exactly.
00:45:00
Speaker
Exactly.
00:45:01
Speaker
It's a pursuit for the wellness of your soul.
00:45:22
Speaker
It is all the sensory experience of being with that instrument.
00:45:25
Speaker
It's the vibration of holding it and playing it, the smell of the varnish and the wood, the beauty of it as a physical object.
00:45:34
Speaker
All of those things are just deeply meaningful to me.
00:45:37
Speaker
You're getting poetic on me.
00:45:38
Speaker
Oh dear.
00:45:40
Speaker
It's hard not to when you are literally holding a work of art.
00:45:52
Speaker
I think that's a good note to close on, so to speak.
00:45:55
Speaker
Thanks, Mom.
00:46:06
Speaker
I don't know about you, but I feel like I've been on a real journey, and I don't just mean to Chicago.
00:46:12
Speaker
I really hope you enjoyed being along for the ride.
00:46:14
Speaker
Today's episode was produced and edited by Sammy Delati.
00:46:18
Speaker
Our music is by Trap Rabbit, and I'm your host, Ben Miller.