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Winchester Mystery House Pinball with Karl DeAngelo
1.5k Plays1 month ago
Karl DeAngelo joins us to talk about the smash success of his debut game, Winchester Mystery House. Want to buy a Barrels of Fun game? Head to flipnoutpinball.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 180
00:00:07
Speaker
Thanks for tuning into the loser kid pinball podcast.
Joining the Winchester Pinball Waiting List
00:00:09
Speaker
If you're keeping track where episode 180 with me, my cohost Scott Larson and I'm Josh Roop and we have an excellent podcast lined up for today, but you know, Winchester may have sold out.
00:00:22
Speaker
If you want to get on the waiting list, who are you going to hit up there? Scott? So hit up Zach and Nicole, many of flipping out pinball. Also other things that that they have, they have Dune, they have Labyrinth, they have all barrels of fun and other games
Introducing Carl D'Angelo and His Game Design Journey
00:00:36
Speaker
too.
00:00:36
Speaker
But right now we have the barrels of fun guy, a new guy, new designer that you may or may not have heard of. If you are into pinball, um he, he's been playing for a few years. He's ah he's probably like, don't know. How would you rate his pinball skills? Josh scale one to 10 scale of one to 10.
00:00:55
Speaker
12 out of 10. 12 out of 10. Yeah, probably. Okay. ah So anyway, Zach and Nicole, many of flipping out pinball. If you want to get on the list or get anything, definitely give them a call. And Josh, I'm going to throw it to you and you are going to interview or introduce our esteemed guest.
00:01:10
Speaker
So Carl D'Angelo has been around for a while now. ah Competitive play. He also runs inland empire streaming, which is amazing. ah You know how most people are like, oh, I can complete a mode or two. Carl's like, nah, we're going to get all the way to the end and destroy this game.
00:01:26
Speaker
That's kind of what you became famous for, if I remember correctly, through streaming. And now you've created a game that everyone fell in love with day one, and it sold out all 525 in 48 hours, if that.
00:01:39
Speaker
yeah Two days. Absolutely insane. So I want to welcome on Carl. It is great to have you on. How are you
Carl's Inspiration from Winchester Mystery House
00:01:44
Speaker
doing? and It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on. Awesome. yeah Okay. First off,
00:01:50
Speaker
how did this even work? Did you just ran to David one day and you're like, you know, who has two thumbs and wants to design a machine? This guy, ah David got word. He, I, I was working on a homebrew machine and I was on the fast Slack channel and he saw, I was posting on there. And we also have a friend, a Shane over at a Skogi that, uh, I had mentioned I was working on a, a homebrew.
00:02:11
Speaker
And so David got word of that and wanted to meet. And we met one, i want to say it was January of 24. twenty four um Little did I know, but they had just seen Dune du Part 2 for the first time.
00:02:24
Speaker
They had ah just toured the Winchester Mystery House. But basically, I showed them my homebrew, my Whitewood. um And he liked my ideas, what I had in there, and asked if I would ah be interested in working with him.
00:02:36
Speaker
And so just we we didn't know I was going to start on a game immediately. We just ah said, OK, because I have a full-time job. I wasn't leaving that yet, so It was a matter of how much could I get done?
00:02:49
Speaker
you know What could my role in the company be? So I came on and we started and then i got put on this game, shockingly. so So the one question I have is the white wood What became Winchester or is that a different game for the the homebrew?
00:03:04
Speaker
It's completely different. So Winchester Mystery House was made from scratch based on you know the elements in the property.
Incorporating Haunted House Theme into Pinball Design
00:03:12
Speaker
So the question I have is with the Winchester Mystery House. So this is a ah very famous house, especially in you know the Western United States, specifically California.
00:03:23
Speaker
A lot of people know the story and you said you toured this uh on like 20 years ago or something like that when did you find out about the winchester mystery house jeez um i'm growing up in california i'd say i always knew about it by and i was somewhere i always wanted to go but it's one of those things i'm never in northern california it's a six hour drive from here so it was one year going to california extreme it's like 10 minutes or 15 minutes away from where that show was held so my wife and i went and toured it and that was the 20 years ago just to check it out
00:03:54
Speaker
And it fascinated me at that time. So when David brought it up that they had the license to this house, I mean, it's something no one would ever expect as a pinball machine. Right. but Even if this game leaked, who would have guessed it?
00:04:08
Speaker
No, no. So, but I was, he mentioned it and I was thrilled. like, Ooh, cause I love haunted houses. I love theme parks. It's, it just, it fit all, all the things I'm into. Yeah.
00:04:19
Speaker
And so, so what about the thing? So I'll, I'll do a quick summary if that's okay. So this is the Winchester mystery house. So this is, um this is the wife of the heir of the Winchester, ah the rifle ah that, that won the West.
00:04:34
Speaker
ah She, um now her husband died ah when he was like in the forties. Did I get that right? It's pretty young. Yeah. Pretty young and and no kids or did the kids die? the They had one child. and they had one child. Yeah.
00:04:49
Speaker
Yeah. So she was a widow in her forties and, um, she went to see, I think, see a medium or a
Game Mechanics and Player Interaction
00:04:57
Speaker
seance or something like that to try to connect. And the, the, the medium told her that, ah because of the, the association with the rifle that she was, uh, she had spirits around her.
00:05:11
Speaker
is And so to confuse or to entertain the spirits, ah she continually built on the house. And so this is the reason why the house is so fascinating is because there are things in the house, such as like a staircase that goes to nowhere or a a door that opens out on a second on a second story that would plunge you to your death and things like that. It's just fascinating.
00:05:34
Speaker
kind of this this hodgepodge of rooms to basically confuse and entertain the ghosts or the spirits, excuse me. sorry And so that is what's going to go into this haunted house motif.
00:05:50
Speaker
And so there's a lot of things that you can possibly do with that theme to explore, to have people ah go around. So how do you explore something like that? And how do you how how do you channel that storyline into a pinball rule set?
00:06:05
Speaker
I mean, it's a lot of original content in here. you know we we took the We took the house, we took the rooms from the house and thought, and exactly that how can how can we convey the spirit of the winchester mystery house into the game um we kept one of the ghosts that they visitors have reported at the house clyde he's known as the wheelbarrow ghost he's uh found in the basement um so people report that in winchester mystery house they actually have a asset for him they have you know and an image they say you can see a photo and they point out this one individual this was clyde
00:06:41
Speaker
ah In the old time photos. ah But a lot of this was just just coming up with an original story based around the the stairs to nowhere, that the doors to nowhere, all all the odd, the 7-Eleven staircase, all the odd elements that are in the house.
00:06:57
Speaker
And then just finding story elements that would work, make new ghosts, make new spirits, I guess I should say, and just have everything a revolve around that.
Challenges in Gameplay Complexity
00:07:11
Speaker
ah Tell us about the tower. So there's there's a feature in the playfield, the the upper right corner where the tower falls. There has to be a story about that. Right. So the house the house was originally seven stories.
00:07:24
Speaker
That's how as the at the height of it. um In 1906, there was the big San Francisco earthquake, which damaged a lot of the house. And that tower was one of the things that fell. So we decided to actually bring that back into the game.
00:07:38
Speaker
You can see it on the back glass the right hand side. You'll see like this ghostly image of the tower and we put it in the game itself and we'll have an earthquake that drops the tower among other things. We're gonna use it for more than just that specific event.
00:07:51
Speaker
So you can see the tower going up and down, but that's the reason we put it in the game. So where did the, what I really noticed and I think stands out to a lot of people is the turntable. And with the diverting and different paths, and it really makes it into a winding maze.
00:08:06
Speaker
Where did that part of the concept come from when you were building? that It kind of came organically. I wanted a way to convey how the house is confusing, how it's easy to get lost in it. So i thought, okay, multiple paths, multiple ways to get lost.
00:08:20
Speaker
The other thing was i had the staircase to nowhere that I wanted at a 90 degree angle to the player so you can see the ball come up, get caught. on that And so I needed some sort of pathway to push the ball into there.
00:08:31
Speaker
I wanted it to fall into a subway too. So that's kind of how that turntable grew over time. and Originally, it was just a two-shot diverter to get up on that staircase ramp.
00:08:42
Speaker
And then it slowly morphed into four shots and then the the eight that it eventually ended at. But yeah, it was just meant to... be a way to show how confusing that the houses and how there's hallways that go this way and that way. And you don't know where you're going pretty much.
00:08:59
Speaker
Definitely. And the other question I have too is, I mean, this is your first game. I know you were working on a homebrew and you've played a ton of games. You've obviously had your hands on and understand ah a lot of pinball machines.
00:09:10
Speaker
but the geometry just felt so good while playing this at pinball expo. Everything just felt smooth. It flowed well, didn't feel like it was very many rejects, at least from the game itself. Maybe I was shooting terribly sometimes, but how did did you take inspiration from other people? how How did you figure out the geometry and stuff? Was it just tweak here, tweak there?
00:09:29
Speaker
Yeah. A lot of it is tweak your tweak there. Uh, it's, it's just 20, 25 years of playing pinball and I used to restore games. So I would, you know, rebuild games from the ground up, you know, do play field swaps. So, or like I would modify games to make them play a little better. If I found a shot was clunk clunky, I would, you know, bend some ball guides, reposition some screws to make it play a little better. So I think just my experience in pinball overall led to what I think makes a shot work well.
00:10:01
Speaker
How many individual ball paths are there in this game? Well, there's, I actually haven't counted everything. There's eight different paths. There's three entrances to the turntable.
00:10:13
Speaker
you know Do the math, I guess. Okay. There's a lot. yeah the The one thing that that I noticed during the the gameplay was how quickly the the turntable rotated, like even between shots. it wasn't It wasn't like between balls. It was like you'd flip it, and right before the flipper, it would change the path.
00:10:36
Speaker
So how, how are you going to predict usually ah least to elite level players, not hacks like me, elite level players want to know exactly where the ball is going when they're taking the shot. So how do you anticipate that when you are, when you're, when that, uh, turntable is spinning so quickly.
00:10:54
Speaker
Well, one of the things i wanted to do was make sure that everything was open so you could see everything. So you can see and when the turntable turns, you can see exactly the ball path your ball is going to take.
00:11:05
Speaker
There's no surprises. and no I mean, the left orbit, maybe there's some hidden stuff as the ball comes down, but it's it just a straight shot down to the flipper on the left hand side. But everything else is is open and visible so that you don't lose track of the ball.
Influences in Carl's Design and Game Modes
00:11:18
Speaker
Because I know people don't like losing track of the ball, you know, shooting it in somewhere and then where's it going to come out kind of a thing.
00:11:24
Speaker
how How is it? So obviously this being your first game and whatnot, I assume this is the first time you've managed a team when it comes to pinball and you had some really great people on this team. You got Jeff Dodson who does dirty pool.
00:11:35
Speaker
Sound was fantastic. Like this was next level. I was super impressed with it. You've got Brad all by who did artwork. Did you do most of the mechanical engineering with the, the mechs and stuff like that? Or did you have someone do that for you?
00:11:46
Speaker
So I did a lot of the mechanical engineering on it. And then I also had, um, Travis and Luke help out on it over time. um, throughout the project. But a lot of it was, was on, on my plate to start with at the beginning.
00:12:00
Speaker
I was going to say, cause that, that, that turntable is smooth as butter. Like it just, like Scott said, like it's, it's like turning on a dime and it just does so quickly. ah Is that just like you said, like years of having hands on games or. No, that, I mean, that's just that just having the idea of the turntable, and we really didn't know what we were going to make it out of. And once we've, I thought let's make it like a ramp, you know, and that's basically, it's this big stainless steel platter.
00:12:24
Speaker
Yeah. If you pick it up, it's, it's a heavy beast, but it's, it's the separate motors that, that keep that. It's just a single step remodered direct driving. that turntable. So it's a really simple mechanism to overall, and it just, it it turned out so well.
00:12:37
Speaker
ah Yeah. Amazing. Does it rotate both ways or one way? It rotates both ways. That's amazing. Tell us about the dead end shot. Cause that, that certainly surprised a lot of people.
00:12:49
Speaker
So there are two dead end shots on, on the turntable, the North and the East directions. There's just two, you, and that's you're asking about. Are you asking about the staircase to nowhere? ah I'm talking about there's there, there's a, sorry, there's a staircase shot, right. That goes up and then comes back down.
00:13:07
Speaker
Okay. And then there's also, there's also a dead end shot too, right? Right. So yeah, there are two targets on the turntable that are dead end shots that signify, you know, the, the empty halls that you go down. There's the staircase to nowhere. That's the one that,
00:13:20
Speaker
The ball veers left on and there's a magnet on that on that ramp. It's like a very small ramp, but there's a magnet that grabs the ball so that we can turn the turntable and shove the ball down to the basement.
00:13:32
Speaker
and And now tell me about the basement, because you you don't have an necessarily an upper play field or a lower play field in the game. But we do talk about going to the basement and going to the second story.
00:13:45
Speaker
how How did you communicate that to the players that, okay, now this is where you are? Because and that can be confusing if people are like, I don't know exactly ah what the goal is on the game.
00:13:55
Speaker
It can be. and And part of that is, I mean, I'm saying that the shots that go from the staircase into the subway, I signify the subway as the basement. So no word in the game does actually say that.
00:14:06
Speaker
But at the same time, we do have a a basement mode. We have a basement room on the map. So the entire game, if you look at the play field, you have this blueprint of the house. Uh, it's got the 13 rooms are actually 14 listed there, including the foyer.
00:14:21
Speaker
Um, And that has the basement in the lower right. And that's a mode for the basement. But then we also have the wheelbarrow ghost multiball, which takes place in the basement. And that's where that staircase lock happens. That's when the ball is grabbed and and shoved down there so that you can meet Clyde, the wheelbarrow ghost, who is in the basement.
00:14:42
Speaker
You know, one thing that I really like about this game that when we first started playing that I saw in your videos and stuff like that, I like to explore a pinball machine. I know some people play for score or some like to fill out a machine and just see what nooks and crannies it has.
00:14:56
Speaker
This key concept where if you you start out with the key, so you don't have to really traverse the trails,
Future Updates and Player Engagement Strategies
00:15:02
Speaker
you can just open the rooms and you can earn more keys by hitting the drop targets there.
00:15:06
Speaker
I love this concept. when When did that come into play and what made you decide to go that route? That came in the second time I was touring the Winchester Mystery House while on this project. We went on their Explore More tour, which is a you wear hard hat.
00:15:21
Speaker
You go into the third floor of the the house where you don't normally get to get the tour. It was actually really cool to see these unfinished rooms and such. But we reached a point in the tour that we we entered a room and our tour guide tried to open the next door to get, you know, to continue our tour.
00:15:39
Speaker
And it was locked. And we couldn't go any further in the house. So she had a radio for someone to come up and unlock this door. So that gave me the idea of putting these keys in the house that you have to unlock doors to get further into the house.
00:15:55
Speaker
And so the idea was just with the game, I didn't want anyone to be locked into playing the same thing over and over and over again. So the keys are a way to add the variety so that you can use a key and explore how you want. You can go to that last, you know, you can go the furthest room on the map if you collect enough keys as your first mode, if you really wanted to. It's going to take some time to do it.
00:16:16
Speaker
It's going to be difficult, but you could do it. So walk me through the modes on this game. Did I hear correctly there are six modes that you are currently planned in the game?
00:16:26
Speaker
Did I get that right? Currently, there are six modes in the game. There are 13 planned. So thirteen there's a lot of 13 references because 13 was Sarah Winchester's favorite number. So she has 13 all throughout the house. So we have 13 targets, 13 modes.
00:16:40
Speaker
There's the 13 features. There's just a lot like that. um So yes, right now there are six modes. And we have seven more coming.
Technical Aspects and Game Balance
00:16:50
Speaker
One of the modes and for there's a room, the Daisy Bedroom actually has two modes for the one room, depending on if you visit it before you have the ah ah earthquake wizard mode or after it.
00:17:02
Speaker
So you'll only get to play one or the other in the game. You will never get to play both. um But how do do you want to walk through the what's in there right now, like the storylines and such? yeah Yeah, walk us through it.
00:17:13
Speaker
Okay. So you start off with the three rooms, the Venetian Dynogroom. the servant's kitchen and the twin dining rooms those are your options and you can unlock the basement if you go to the venetian dining room you're going to see a spirit sitting at a table uh staring at a candle and what what what we have is we there's a villain we haven't quite introduced yet named henry that he's he's kind of trapped these spirits into these tasks or they're forced to continue doing what they've been doing.
00:17:42
Speaker
So you'll see her sitting at a table with a single candle lit, and you have to finish lighting the candles to free her spirit. And then for all these, when we get the wizard modes in, the spirits you free will actually be helping you in the wizard mode. So you know if you play a wizard mode early on, you may only have three spirits. If you play that same wizard mode later in the game, maybe you've got six in the mode.
00:18:04
Speaker
So there's some variety there to make it a little more dynamic. um The kitchen, there's a she the spirit there.
00:18:14
Speaker
I'm going to forget her name right now. Dang it. Anyways, she's um she's at a stove, and she doesn't want to ever let the flames die. so you have to distract her. She goes downstairs, and you'll see her on our Pepper's Ghost display.
00:18:30
Speaker
And while she's down there, you can make shots to turn off the oven, basically to to extinguish the flames. And if you extinguish them all, then you've freed her spirit. We've got the seance room, which is the seance room at the Winchester Mystery House is a unique room. It's this really tiny room. You wouldn't actually think it's a seance room. There's no, it's it's this plain room that Sarah would go in to conduct her seances at 12 and 2, 12 a.m., 12 a.m., 2 a.m.
00:18:59
Speaker
But the trick with this room is once you exit it, there's no way to get back in the way you came. So in the mode, After you leave the room, you have to trek around the house to get back into the room because you hear the bell tolling.
00:19:15
Speaker
You hear the that the but Winchester bell, which is what she used to call the spirits at her seances. So you have to get all the way around to get back into the seance room to see what's calling you back.
00:19:27
Speaker
and that would that And if you finish that mode, it actually starts seance multi-bell for you. um The twin dining rooms, that's those are two ident nearly identical dining rooms.
00:19:38
Speaker
in the house. And what you have there is you have a spirit, the silver man that's trapped in the second room. And you have to free a spirit. So you have to break this. It's as if he's in another dimension and you're breaking through that room to set him free.
00:19:54
Speaker
What's left here? The basement is in there right now. That's where you go into the basement. The lights are off and you have to restore the power in the basement. And these angry spirits are coming at you.
00:20:05
Speaker
So you have to hold down your action button to make a flash, ah a light flash in order to dispel the spirit temporarily as you traverse the basement to try and get the power back on And then how many is that? Five, six.
00:20:22
Speaker
There's the Daisy bedroom. This is where we, it's a young girl named Maribel that's playing with her dolls and she needs your help finding the jewelry associated with each doll. And if you mess up,
00:20:35
Speaker
She's not very happy at all. And you'll start hearing her music box make some really odd music. um And the dolls will start to have red eyes and such. So don't mess up there.
00:20:48
Speaker
Idea there was to be creepy. And if you see the our tilt warnings, those are the dolls from that room. um I think that's the six that are in there right now. Now, there was one mode that I was watching you play where the ghost was capturing your scores.
00:21:04
Speaker
And you actually had to either catch the ghost or or exercise the goat or the spirit ah so you could capture those points. that now it's Tell me more about that.
00:21:15
Speaker
That's the play field multiplier rule for the entire game. So once you start your multiplier, there's a spirit meter on the right-hand side of the screen. You build it up with a lit spinner that goes up to 30 seconds maximum.
00:21:29
Speaker
And then there's a X target, which will activate your playfield multiplier. And once you activate that, the spirits are stealing your score. Your score is completely frozen, and you don't earn any points until that timer is done.
00:21:42
Speaker
and you collect your score and you've got 15 seconds to collect it at the spider web magnet at the right orbit. Otherwise you lose all those points that you should have gotten. is the Are these 15 seconds? Is this like a double or triple scoring? So there's there's an incentive for you to keep trying to rack it up and collect it?
00:22:00
Speaker
Well, that's what the the only time of your score is frozen is when it's 2X or 3X. Yeah, double or triple. So it's funny because like when you did the original videos on the reveal day of this, ah One of the videos you said there's only like it's only 25% code complete.
00:22:14
Speaker
And when I got my hands on the game, granted, I only played like three or four games. So I didn't get to super
Guiding New Players with Tutorials
00:22:20
Speaker
dive deep. This felt like a fully fleshed out game already. Yeah. How much more are you expecting? I mean, 75% is a lot compared to what you already have in there.
00:22:29
Speaker
I may have been a little light on the 25%. I'll admit that. But I was trying to think through, you know, we still have seven modes coming in, you know, in the house. Then we've got three main wizard modes. We've got a whole bunch of side quests, a whole bunch of side quest wizard modes, just things that, and the idea with all of this is I'm trying to plan all the wizard modes and such so everyone will be to see them, except for maybe the very final one. The very final ones, that's going to be a challenge to get to.
00:22:56
Speaker
but i think everyone should be able to play skeleton key multi-ball that's when you get 13 keys i think everyone should be able to get all 13 items in the upper right play the five modes that are associated with those and then play the multi-ball that comes after that um we have a right ramp mode that's coming in the game soon we have a super spinner it's just there's a lot of stuff that's not there right now that and that's why i said 25 initially Gotcha. Gotcha.
00:23:22
Speaker
I mean, this, it looks amazing. Just, yeah. And then it's funny, like when you said 25%, I'm like, Ooh, should he have said that? But like everyone playing the game, there was no one that was like, this feels bare bones. Everyone was like, this feels really good. No one got through everything. That's for sure.
00:23:36
Speaker
And then, and even I was paying attention as people were playing, very few people even played the ah Daisy bedroom that's in there right now because that's one of the further rooms in the house from from the foyer from where you start. so It sounds like that's for the best because you don't want people screaming and running out of
00:23:55
Speaker
The other thing I think that's really cool about this that I haven't seen very many other games do is the Ouija board for the apron and like with it lighting up with the players and the numbers and everything like that.
00:24:07
Speaker
Where did that come from? And is is there actual Ouija boards in the ah Winchester house? Or is it just, it's just part of the theme. They sell Ouija boards in the gift shop. We put a spirit board on the game because Ouija is licensed product.
00:24:22
Speaker
Gotcha. Okay. Spirit board. Yeah. um um So we always wanted something in there. I always wanted some sort of spirit board in the game. And originally we had one that had a moving planchette on it that was a magnet base and it would just, you know, you go over the entire board and spill out things.
00:24:40
Speaker
That'd be way cool. It's cool. yeah it's very yeah Yeah, and it's seeing it and the watching the planchette just move around is fantastic. But you have to stare at it to see what it's spelling. So just doesn't make sense for a pinball machine. For pinball?
00:24:56
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. so With your third eye? think Yes. So much better. and And so ah Brad came up with this idea of putting me ah you know making the entire apron the spirit board.
00:25:06
Speaker
And it just took off from there and having the lid numbers, the lid planchette, it made it look so nice. It would be hilarious, though, to still have it moving. And if someone's watching over your shoulder that doesn't know this game, right? like And someone starts freaking out. The thing's moving. What's moving? What's it spelling out? Is it saying something? Weird. For me, I'd probably you stink at pinball. Yeah.
00:25:29
Speaker
All right, Carl. The coolest part, one of the coolest parts, in my opinion, in this game is the peppered ghost effect and the ball catching back there in that back corner and just like the spiderwebs grabbing the ball and it's shaking and stuff.
00:25:41
Speaker
Where did that come into play? Because it's it's such a cool concept. Well, we have ghosts, and we needed a place to show ghosts. So it's a we tried for a while to to figure out how to put the ghosts in the house. we We knew we were going to put a large sculpt of the Winchester Mystery House inside the game.
00:26:03
Speaker
um But we had trouble figuring out exactly how we were going to display them. We had a ah projector idea. We had showing them through windows, you know, lighting up things, but we landed on that Pepper's ghost just because it's, it's such a great effect.
00:26:17
Speaker
It really hasn't been used enough in pinball. I feel, I mean, sure you had pinball 2000 and you've got some, you know, you have the like ghostbusters and dialed in, have little tiny screens, but this is a larger screen that, and because it is, we can interact with the ball with the various things that we'll have in there.
00:26:35
Speaker
Well, it looks pretty amazing. The the one thing that I i kept shooting when when I was playing was kind of the spiderweb effect. And so the spider, so the ball flips back and on the spider web, and it really took me a second to look at it and say, okay, what's going on here? Like this, I know, I
Game Design Philosophy and Community Influence
00:26:52
Speaker
know this is an image here, but I couldn't figure out how you were doing it until I realized, oh, it's a Pepper's ghost, but it looked so good integrating with the ball path.
00:27:01
Speaker
I thought that was brilliant. And that that's the idea. And we're going lot more in there coming up. Of course. like Who came up with that? With the spider web, I mean, I had the magnet in the game. The spider web, I think, it might have been Eric that made a graphic and then Trent spruced it up.
00:27:18
Speaker
I agree with you that Pepper's ghost effect has not been utilized enough in pinball. The first night that I actively remember getting like seeing being exposed to pinball, I got to play a circus Voltaire, Simpson's pinball party, whitewater, uh, uh, twilight zone and Adams family considerably all the best games. And this was 2012.
00:27:39
Speaker
So this was like before so the modern that we know now the LCDs, the game that stuck out the most to me was revenge for Mars. And that's the game that hooked me in because destroying those little aliens on the play field and blowing up the ship and, and the big chicken on the play field and stuff like that was mind boggling to me. And shout out to ah Douglas Smith. If you haven't checked out his recent video, he took a revenge from ours and put it in a new modern cabinet. okay Yeah. It's a really, really cool video.
00:28:08
Speaker
ah Like I said, I'm, I'm nostalgic. That's like the game that hooked me. Right. But I totally agree with you. This pepper's effect. And it's, it's funny too. Cause it's also it's pepper's ghost, right? So like it even is a little on the nose of,
00:28:20
Speaker
winchester house even though you're not supposed to call ghosts they're spirits but spirits yeah so but no seriously this is just such there's so many cool ideas in this game one thing that makes me slightly nervous though because in one of the videos david's like carl i let you go ham on this game this isn't what you're always going to be doing so do do we need a temper expectations going because you're making another game that was what was announced Yeah, I'll be working on future projects for barrels. Absolutely.
00:28:48
Speaker
But yeah with this having pretty much the kitchen sink in it, do we have to temper expectations? He he was talking more about having the freedom to do what we wanted to do with it. The licensor was very open for ideas and and did not push back on...
00:29:01
Speaker
Pretty much anything. i mean, just one or two things. They were fantastic to work with. That's amazing. but one One of the things was the ghosts, right? Yeah, yeah. ghost They called the client the wheelbarrow ghost. That was something jeff Jeff thought of for some reason. And I didn't correct him at the time. And I should. All right.
00:29:19
Speaker
Okay. We're dispelling rumors right now. There you go. Now, the real question I have is, Carl, um you're one of the best players on the planet. Right. So designing a game that you can shoot is a little different than a game that I can shoot.
00:29:36
Speaker
So how do you find that balance for the normies out there who just, who who are playing pinball and we don't have the skills that the Carly Angelo has? I mean, there's a combination of of shots in this game. So I think some of them are easier and some of them are harder.
00:29:52
Speaker
Like the spinner shot is definitely one of the hardest shots in the game. But the the center shot, the center hall where the the modes are started primarily, that's one of the easier shots. The inline drops are an easier shot. So it's just it's just finding a balance of you know what's nice to shoot on the flipper and make sure that the code is aligned with those
Overcoming Design Challenges and Storytelling in Pinball
00:30:10
Speaker
shots as well so people can progress even if they can't find those more difficult shots in the game.
00:30:16
Speaker
I do, I do feel like your main mech or one of your main mechs, the, the, the turntable was very good to shoot as well. And I think that is, is a good idea because then ah you interact with that mech a lot more. Right.
00:30:27
Speaker
Same with, I like that the keys didn't feel as dangerous to go after because of where they're located. um The one that is dangerous that I did like and had to get used to was the inlines. And it feels like they're a little tighter.
00:30:41
Speaker
What made you decide to put inline targets since, I mean, they're always iconic, like Metallica. That's one of my favorite parts, but like you don't see them enough outside have like that and TNA. You know what I'm saying?
00:30:51
Speaker
People love inline drops. That's And watching people play at expos often, the first thing they would shoot for in the game. I see the inline drops. They want to get behind them. And so it's, Just I enjoy inlines and yeah, they're underutilized in games overall.
00:31:06
Speaker
And I wanted a way to have a hidden passage behind some sort of shot. And that was a great way to do it. It's very thematic though, because if you're going to be, you know, opening doors and opening passageways, that's a a great integration into, into that process.
00:31:21
Speaker
That process. So when now barrels of fun, this is the question I have with barrels of fun games. So with other games, so like Stern games, they're, they're pretty easy to update at least for an entry level player like me.
00:31:36
Speaker
So how do you make that this process easy for code updates on barrels of fun? Because I have no idea how the barrels of fun like the ah the operating system works and how it how it gets that so tell me about that so there's a usb update and a wi-fi update although i think the wi-fi updates are offline at the moment um but it's a it's a download a single file to single file unzip it put it on a usb drive and then just put it in one of the usb ports on the pc that's in the back box and it automatically updates everything
00:32:09
Speaker
the wifi updates when they're working, when they're back online, it's, it's going to the menu and it won't automatically update. You do have to go into the menu and select it and then it downloads and restarts and everything. So it's a, it's a simple process either way. It's none of the imaging stuff that you see on some other games.
00:32:26
Speaker
Okay. So you did talk about, and I did notice too on the, uh, on the tutorial and when people were, were flipping, you did mention that left out lane is a drain monster. And I noticed a lot of balls going out there. So ah how do you prevent that?
00:32:42
Speaker
Because if you if you look at the way, you know, okay, the the game to me, when I look at it, it has a little bit of a, you know, a ah deep shot on the right, short shots on the left. So I would say if I were comparing it to other games, Jurassic Park is similar that way.
00:32:59
Speaker
Simpson's pinball party is similar that way where there's a lot of close things up there. But how do you prevent, ah you know, if you continually are draining out that left side, how are you going to prevent people from doing that?
00:33:10
Speaker
So we, the lane is adjustable, the in lane. So there is a post in there that you can, you can, so you can make it bigger. You can make it smaller. You know, you get, yeah. You can make it so it shouldn't drain as much, even though it probably still will.
00:33:23
Speaker
um ah the the The other thing is is the kickback to make it easier to light. So we have changed the plan ah based on player feedback. And so the kickback, there are more opportunities to relight it throughout the game.
00:33:37
Speaker
to to So you should not, you know, if you see it's unlit, you should have an an immediate opportunity to relight it if you choose to. At all times, the left orbit will always relight it, and that's part of the plan. But now we've also added a mystery award in case that, you know, because often it'll be lit. Your your kickback's off.
00:33:55
Speaker
You know that if you shoot the orbit, you'll get your kickback lit, but then the magnet, the spiderweb grabs it. So we've added another mystery award, so the spiderweb will actually award it. So you're not always stuck going, damn you, magnet. Why'd you grab my ball?
00:34:09
Speaker
that Okay. the The one question I have is it if you have the control over being able to light the left out lane for like a ball save, would it be, would you consider saying, okay, if you don't light that, you can actually get more points because you're playing dangerously. You're living dangerously, baby.
00:34:33
Speaker
You could, but it's a matter of how do you implement that mechanic and how do you, Figure that out. Oh, come on. There's a lot dangerous stuff over there, like the captive ball. It's all the way on the left-hand side of the game. So that will often, if you're not careful, drain you out the left out lane by design.
00:34:49
Speaker
so So I know one thing that people um get nervous about is when there's a lot of mechanical moving parts on a play field whatnot, um it breaking down. is What's the kind tests that you guys go through to make sure that these are still going to be robust and and people are go to be happy with them for years to come?
00:35:08
Speaker
I mean, it's a lot of it's a lot of play and a lot of design, pretty much. Just making sure that things are, you know, just just bang away on the game once they're ready and and test, test, test, test. test like Like anything.
00:35:20
Speaker
I know like other companies have like, they set up a game just for the mech and it just plays and plays and plays like hours on end. Do you guys do something similar? we We haven't yet, but it's on the list to do on future games.
00:35:32
Speaker
To have a ah you know, just just bang away on a target or whatever 100,000 kind of a thing. Absolutely. um I think we would be lying that anyone was going to guess that this was going to sell out in 24 hours.
00:35:44
Speaker
So the real question is, when do we get another chance at a Carl D'Angelo game? Like, when do we get to see? I know we shouldn't be asking when, like, what's the next game? I don't want that. Like, I think a lot of people are actively like, when do I get to buy like another chance of getting a Carl D'Angelo? When is the next one not sold out?
00:36:03
Speaker
I mean, it'll come. It's, it's, you know, it's, I can't say any specifics of course, but, but yeah, definitely, definite definitely working on projects. So, okay. And then one thing I asked, asked you at a expo, but I don't think a lot of people have asked or thought about is you live in California and you have a full-time job and barrels of fun is in Houston, Texas and is a full-time job.
00:36:26
Speaker
So, uh, is it going a while? Like, are you going are you going to quit your job and move there? are you going to retire? what's What's the game plan? I am working my way towards a pension after being where I am for 25 years. so I'm trying to get that just the last little bit so I don't waste those 25 years working there. And then we'll see ah where things take us at that point.
00:36:49
Speaker
And what does that mean for like never drains and stuff like that too? it's It's a lot to juggle right now. It's absolutely a lot to juggle. We want answers. No, I'm joking. we need you to have this figured out all right now well you know i i was i was juggling at the last 18 months already so i know i can do it i know i can manage it it's just it's it's a lot so i was looking for some help with the software or see if i could pass it along to someone else um for now i'm just reducing the number of tournaments that are able to use it so i do occasionally say no now which is something i rarely ever used to do in the past
00:37:26
Speaker
It's weird boundary. You can't get busy. Yeah. Okay. um Now, what else do you want to bring up about Winchester that we didn't think about?
00:37:38
Speaker
Just the team that knocked it out of the park, I feel. you know the Josh and Julian on the display assets, they're they're fantastic. the Great stuff coming. Josh really, he modeled all these rooms. you know He took pictures of the rooms in the Winchester mystery house in He's got some great detail in it, especially in the Grand Ballroom, which will be featured on the Wizard Modes. There's this beautiful organ in there. And he spent so much time modeling this organ so it would look great in the game.
00:38:05
Speaker
um And then we'll have some organ music coming from Jeff, too, to to match that for for the Wizard Modes, which is going to be really exciting to see. um We have a tutorial that's coming very soon.
00:38:17
Speaker
um So you'll if you have never played the game before, the idea is to give players a quick overview. You'll hold down the action button, and they'll our tour guide will narrate, along with lights on the play field and instructions on the screen. yeah So how to tour the house, how to start your mode, how to start Sands 30, 40 seconds. Just just thirty forty seconds just very brief just for complete beginners and then for the homeowners we'll have an option to turn it off so you won't even be asked so you know you won't be bugged when you start the game because otherwise you'll hear is this your first time here kind of a thing well they may ask that after i've played a few times either way um okay the but we see you're struggling would you like some help like like on the mario games now like when luigi dies or yeah when you die too many times as mario luigi's like do you want me to help you we can give you some stars here to get you through the level
00:39:12
Speaker
Okay, that that was like Super Mario World, like because my kids were really young at the time, and they're like, do you just want God mode so you can get through this? Okay, so Carl, you've been doing this for a long time. Everybody has that one game that hooked them into pinball.
00:39:30
Speaker
What was your game that you remember connecting with? Jeez. Jeez. I mean, i want to say the first game I ever played was a cyclone, and I was big in into theme parks and roller coasters, so I'd almost say that, as funny as that is. I do remember...
00:39:47
Speaker
um my family to take trips to vegas uh every summer and me and my brothers would get a roll of quarters each and they would go play arcade games i would play pinball and one year circuit circus i remember terminator 2 being rolled out right there brand new i sat on it for three hours playing it on the you know my 10 bucks i had so that's another one that was ah big influence on you know keeping me going on this but But then at the same time, I had a break in college where I didn't play anything, really. Not until i me and my wife bought a house and had space. I went, oh, maybe I can buy pinball machine. Yeah.
00:40:23
Speaker
Bought a whirlwind. And so I'd say one of those three, ah Cyclone, T2, or Whirlwind are the ah the ones. Which is amazing because that's all three design different designers. and And I love the diversity there, especially.
00:40:38
Speaker
So are you taking, i guess, knowledge from those favorite games and stuff like that to implement into your games as you move forward? i I don't know. I don't know what my style is yet.
00:40:49
Speaker
you know what what what What common aspects you'll see between games. ah Well, you have four flippers in this one. so I do have four flippers, yes. So I do like i do like multiple flippers. i more I'm not a big fan layout ah fan, so...
00:41:06
Speaker
the I was going to say the only game, because it's funny because like games come out and the first thing that happens is comparisons, right? Because a lot of people want to they want to be able to, I guess, play it without playing it. You know you see some pictures you're like, oh, I think oh this will make more sense once you do this and that.
00:41:21
Speaker
I do feel like this game has like a little bit of a whirlwind with the the cross shot with the drop targets and that. ah Maybe a little bit of Foo Fighters, little bit of um Judge Dredd with those inline, or not the inlines, with the the drop target with that flipper up there.
00:41:35
Speaker
But honestly, overall, I mean, we're really nitpicking because I feel like this is like, it's kind of like that. this It's funny because like your first game really feels organically different and new. It feels different.
00:41:47
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it does. And so I'm just curious, if this is your your freshman attempt, I'm just curious and like excited to see where you move on from here because this is just amazing in my opinion.
00:42:00
Speaker
Thank you. it's it's it's ah It's kind of scary to... you know, think about what comes next. Yeah. I get you. Try to do something different and be, you know, not the Let him breathe, Josh. he He's enjoying the success. He, he just barely spiked the football. like worry he We're already looking for a 10-5 to see how. yeah It was funny, though. So we did our Expo episode.
00:42:23
Speaker
And, I mean, you guys by far stole the show, in my opinion, with Winchester. That's my personal opinion. Winchester and Dune. Those yes were my two favorites. And and and and yeah my top ones, Winchester, Dune, Portal, and Harry Potter.
00:42:38
Speaker
yeah And in all of those, really felt like they leveled up. the The companies they were represented, all of them took a big step up, which is which is a big deal because everybody's competing with Stern, which is you which is making so many games compared to everybody else.
00:42:55
Speaker
it It felt like everybody really stepped up to the plate and really hit home runs. But it made me laugh because like we did a 23-minute piece on Barrels of Fun because it was just such a good show for you guys. It was good showing. yeah And someone was like, why are you guys hyping on a game that no one can get a hold I'm like, we're not hyping. It's just a good game. like Well, we were here. We got a hold of it. We played. yeah So we shouldn't talk about Beetlejuice at all because it's already sold out. So ah you know there's if you can't get it, there's no reason to talk about it. Exactly.
00:43:27
Speaker
know Okay. that The best part about this though, is that in even talking to David, this was, this was a, an experiment really.
00:43:38
Speaker
And he even talked about it saying, look, we took a risk on a, it's a licensed game, but for all intents and purposes, it's, it's pretty much a, as close to an unlicensed game as you're going to get in today's day and age.
00:43:52
Speaker
And then he's like, and you know, it's Carl's first game. Carl's ah an elite level player. He's great. And this is taking a risk on things and all three things together. He's in, even he admitted if we can get two of those things really to, to gel, then, then we can have a ah good showing.
00:44:12
Speaker
ah Even he didn't expect like, you know three or four, four things to level up so quickly and for it to be such a ah great show. So, In anything, that is like a big take. it's a It's good for the future of pinball that there are more options out there and everybody is leveling everybody else up.
00:44:32
Speaker
Because in having someone who is an elite level player like yourself, you're going to look at things way differently than I will. Because you're goingnna you're you're going to see, you know, it's it's like the Matrix.
00:44:46
Speaker
You're the one who sees all the code that's going up and down. and i and I'm still just just trying to, you know, trying to not drain down the center most of the time. Well, I mean, at the same time, like I said earlier, it's it's it's my job now to make sure that anyone can play the game and anyone can have fun. All skill levels. You know, if someone steps that up to the game and doesn't know what they're doing or doesn't understand it, doesn't have fun, then I have failed.
00:45:11
Speaker
so So my next question is, um do you need like some testers maybe in the Utah area who are willing to to work out the code, maybe find some space? don't know, it's Vernal or or Salt Lake. you know Either one of those options would be really good.
00:45:29
Speaker
I think you can talk to Dave. I have to talk to Dave on that. It's funny too. Cause like I, you know, the fun house is fantastic. Haunted house is one of the games I was kind of first introduced to when I got into the hobby. Oh, that five level monster. oh Yeah. Yeah. Cause I bought an amazing Spider-Man. My friends like, while you're out there, buy a pinball machine for me. And i was like,
00:45:47
Speaker
I don't know. and The guy had a haunted house. He's getting rid of. So i was like, we're buying that. Wait, wait, you bought Spider-Man and haunted house. Those are like the two worst functioning games. Anyhow, they blow all the time. But it's funny. Cause like I didn't put two and two together till like Winchester came out and we're at expo.
00:46:03
Speaker
And I always tell people I'm from dinosaur land, but the one thing after Winchester, like, Oh, I also live like 20 minutes from skin Walker ranch. I didn't realize skin Walker ranch is as big as it is. Cause I grew up next to it.
00:46:14
Speaker
You know saying? Like, Yeah. Anyhow, i Carl's looking at me like, have you heard Skinwalker? Okay. It's like a movie. Then no Winchester, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds creepy.
00:46:26
Speaker
um Yeah. we We won't go down that road. But those that know what Skinwalker is, actually got to go work on the ranch here in the next week. So, oh yeah. I should give an update. You need heating air heating and air conditioning on the Skinwalkers.
00:46:40
Speaker
Yes. Yes. So the aliens and the, uh, the shape shifters still need heating and cooling as well. I guess it's modern comforts. If there were aliens would have the technology. Yeah. Really? Who's boiling water nowadays? Not, not even aliens want to boil water. So they had enough technology to get to earth, but they can't, no right they can't boil water.
00:47:01
Speaker
Anyhow. Okay. We're going down a rabbit hole. I apologize. Okay. Okay. How many, i didn't get to this. How many balls are in the game? Six balls. Six balls. And are the multi-balls, do they actually, do you have a six ball multi-ball in there? There will be. Six balls is partially because we have a three ball physical lock so that we could still have three balls, you know, or you've got two locked on there. So we could still have at least four balls and a regular multi-ball without releasing those kind of a thing.
00:47:26
Speaker
But there will be some multi-balls in there that use all six balls depending on various things that you've done. You may have a three ball, you may have a six ball. it depends on how you've have've done in the game.
00:47:37
Speaker
Will that would be lock stealing? No lock stealing, no.
00:47:42
Speaker
I guess one other question I do have too, because we've talked about this a little bit on and off for this episode is as you're moving forward, you're going to want to make a game that is more that everyone can enjoy. How do you do that code wise too? Because like sometimes you can get overcomplicated with the code as well.
00:47:59
Speaker
Right, so like this, i I took some risks, I feel, with though with the mode setup, with how you pick your room and then you don't go straight to your room to actually play that mode. So players do have the option to hold down the button and it'll skip them straight to the room.
00:48:13
Speaker
So whether that's complicated or not, I don't know. um But we're going to instruct players about it. And again, that's part of the tutorial to teach players that they could do that to try to make it easy enough to understand.
00:48:28
Speaker
I think outside of Jersey Jack's Pirates of the Caribbean, has there ever been a game that's really had a tutorial? And really, that's just a compass pointing you what shot's the best to do. you know what I'm saying? Right, right. And so it's it's so it's just weird because modern pinball is so in-depth nowadays.
00:48:42
Speaker
This tutorial concept, it's weird to me that this is the first time it's really being implemented. I used to do the video tutorials for Stern you know on the attract modes with the arrows pointing everywhere. sure So I kind of started on that. We built that originally for the heads-up championships that the IPA was running um so that we can convey to the stream you know what the goals on the games are so the kind of it's ah It's an evolution of that, I'd say, except it's player-controlled now.
00:49:09
Speaker
yeah Shout out to Tom Graff. So you're very busy, man, because I was i was chuckling. i don't know if you saw the picture, but um the tournament at Expo supposedly was streamed by Pinball. I saw that, yeah.
00:49:24
Speaker
And Tom Graff's no respect. Yeah. And they have the do not disturb Carl signs, too, which I thought was funny, also. Yeah. which is hilarious but i just saw his i don't know if you saw his meme but it was 18 innings of baseball ah six hours long hold my beer because then you know because at the time they took the picture was like one in the morning on saturday so anyhow yeah we know let's let's take on cricket you know yeah well cool um i i feel like we've asked all of our questions scott did you have anything else you wanted to ask
00:49:55
Speaker
You know, i I'm just really excited for this game. i I love that we have more options out there, more options for all the different people out there. It lets you explore these smaller themes that a lot of people aren't going to get.
00:50:09
Speaker
It shows me that barrel barrels... of fun is going in a great direction. And really all three games have been solid games. i i was I am not an early adopter.
00:50:22
Speaker
And so when Labyrinth came out, I'm like, I'll see, I'll see what's going on. This expo was the first time I got to play Dune and also get to actually get my hands on Winchester.
00:50:33
Speaker
And I will say all three of them felt solid. They felt thematically immersive and they felt very much a finished product of the big leagues.
00:50:45
Speaker
So I, I can say at this point, Barrels of Fun is a product that I would say, go ahead and buy. Buy with confidence. the Everything seems so good. And I'm really excited getting you, Carl, on board, ah ah such an elite level player that understands geometry, understands code, and being able to do this going forward. I'm really excited for the things that you guys are going to bring to us as fans.
00:51:13
Speaker
because ah right now it seems super bright. The the future seems bright. Absolutely. And we're super excited too, the future. Everything's going to be great. lot coming.
00:51:24
Speaker
Love it. I'm excited. Well, if someone wants to get a hold of you, Carl, or even though it sounds you're super busy, how do they get a hold of you? i do stream occasionally still on IE Pinball. So check that out.
00:51:36
Speaker
Come join the chat and put some definitely watch. If you want to learn how to play pinball the right way, watch Carl. That's the bottom line. Like I can barely like Godzilla's over my shoulder and I can barely get, you know, 500 million on it. And Carl gets that before like the first city. It's crazy. Yeah.
00:51:56
Speaker
yeah i I will not lie. It did hurt my brain when you got Avengers and you'd done... oh I'm trying to think what it was. You were you were linking some kind of center... it had to have been like the Soul Gem. The Soul Gem. The 8-flip Soul Gem or whatever that was, yeah I think. Yeah, and it was insane. And it was like...
00:52:13
Speaker
this The score was just blowing up. And I'm like, how how do I do that? you were advancing your timer. So it was pretty much like an infinite timer. Oh, yeah. And you were shooting like the the loop for the the hurry up with the gauntlet, I want to say.
00:52:27
Speaker
And it was just insane to watch you just like butter, man. like ever it The time gem underutilized in that game. People do not like to use it for some reason. They want every other one. But I lie love the time gem for that reason.
00:52:39
Speaker
Yeah, that game is underrated. i still don't fool it. <unk> It's funny because it's got to be Keith's easiest playing layout, in my opinion. And yet people like, it's just the most complicated game ever. it's like I still have it. it's It's actually in storage right now. And I still love the game. But yeah. ah yeah So Carl is the Steph Curry of of pinball right now. He's able to hit shots from everywhere in the field. He's hitting threes every day.
00:53:04
Speaker
ah If you want to get a hold of us, we are LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. Also hit us up on all the socials LoserKidPinball. Silverball swag if you want a jersey like us. It is World Series time, baby, so you might as well get your jersey to represent.
00:53:16
Speaker
LoserKids are in it this year, I guess. ah ah Toronto. I sympathize. We're from Utah, so the little guys going up against the big guys. I might not be rooting for either or, but man, I can sympathize for both sides.
00:53:29
Speaker
And I stayed up late for that Dodger game for that dodger game the 18th. I fell asleep like five times. Oh, it was insane. Absolutely insane. Also, are flipping out, if you want that disc code for the fun house, 500 off, Loserkid at checkout. And same with if you want that portal, 1,000 off at checkout, Loserkid in the discount code.
00:53:51
Speaker
and Scott, you got anything else for us? Yeah, yeah we'll do we'll do a future episode on Portal since now we've been able to play it. ah We wanted make sure this one was focused on on Carl and his excellent game and Barrels of Fun.
00:54:02
Speaker
But yeah, look for that in the future. But there that production is ramping up too. So that that deal is still going on. So please reach out and absolutely go play pinball. Go check out Barrels of Fun and watch watch Carl learn how to play.
00:54:21
Speaker
Thank you.