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Charlie Hamilton: From Cycling to Signed with Adidas Terrex
563 Plays8 days ago
On this Trail Running Podcast, we sit down with Charlie Hamilton as he reflects on a huge few months — from his performance at Transvulcania to joining the global Adidas Terrex team.
We cover his Boulder training block, lessons from the long game, and what it all means for Trail Running Australia.
***Don’t forget, use code PPP at Bix’s website for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):https://uppbeat.io/t/mood-maze/trendsetter
License code: K08PMQ3RATCE215R
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Transcript
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Peepershoots podcast. My name is James Sieber and today we welcome back Charlie Hamilton to the show. Charlie was last on for the Trail to Asia Pacific Trail Running Championships midway through last year and previously we also had him on after his win at UTA 50 in 2024. Charlie has been quite busy since then, specifically this year taking first place in a ridiculously competitive and tight Buffalo Stampede 20k and then going on to come eighth at the internationally competitive Transvolcania
00:00:48
Speaker
seventy three k Charlie has also had some pretty big news in that interim between Buffalo and Transfacania. And that is what we got him on today to speak about in more detail. And that is a move to the Adidas international team, leaving his past sponsor, ASICs Australia. This marks quite a significant jump for trail running in Australia because although we have had and we do have some international level athletes, Charlie is at least to my knowledge, one of the most recent for quite a while athletes to make this jump and is hopefully spearheading a future development curve for Australian trail running, which we are seeing take a really big step up.
00:01:26
Speaker
Charlie was incredibly gracious with his time in this interview and I really hope you do get as much value and interest out of it as I did. Without further ado, let's get to the podcast with Charlie Hamilton. Charlie, welcome back to the podcast. How are you doing?
00:01:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm doing pretty well. Thanks. I'm stoked to be back on. It seems like um the podcast is just jetting off. There's so many episodes and all of them are good. So I'm stoked to be back on.
00:01:51
Speaker
I appreciate it. I was listening back to your post UTA 50 and in that Simone was talking about how we need to do a long form with you soon and have you guest hosting, which has only taken us nearly 13 months to get there, but we're here.
00:02:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's nice. I'm happy, keen to have a chat. Perfect. So there's a few big things that we've kind of got you on to talk about at the moment, but i actually want to start with where you are right now because you're in Boulder.
00:02:15
Speaker
What brings you there? Yeah, yeah. I'm up in Boulder, which seems to be where every single runner that like new run in the world seems to live here. It's incredible. um I, yeah, I raced Transvolcania a couple weeks ago and then I'm here until Broken Arrow.
00:02:34
Speaker
And basically it's like, I mean, as all Australians know who want to go race somewhere else, it's a it's a long way. So i I did my 38 hours of traveling over to La Palma and I didn't want to have to go home before um before Broken Arrow. So I just thought I'd come over here, do some training, and kind of catch up with some of the people here. It's good place for running.
00:02:58
Speaker
It's at altitude. There's like a million benefits of all of it. So, yeah, a just here for, I think, maybe five or six weeks and then I'm racing. So Broken Arrow is in three weeks' time?
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah. Three weeks from tomorrow. Yeah. What made you choose Broken Arrow? Um, I'm not sure. It just looks like a gnarly race. Like I think both races, the 23 K is a golden trail series race. Obviously that's awesome.
00:03:27
Speaker
And then the 46 K is, it's like the American short trail selection for world. So it's super competitive. Um, and I just kind of wanted to be a part of it.
00:03:39
Speaker
Um, I'm in a place now where I can like, kind of put myself in a position to like learn a lot of things. And I thought racing in a race as competitive as Broken Arrow would, you know, odds are I'll either have a good run or I'll have a shocking run and learn a bunch.
00:03:53
Speaker
And um I'm pretty excited to, yeah, I'm racing the I'm pretty excited to probably get flogged by a lot of those guys, but, you know, it'll be a good experience nevertheless. Are you currently training with anybody that's doing the 23? Not doing the 23.
00:04:08
Speaker
think most of the guys I've been running with here are doing the 46 actually. They're all American, so, you know, trying to get on that world's team. Yeah. Yeah. do i Just name drop a little bit. Who have you been training with?
00:04:21
Speaker
um I had a session today, for example, got out with Jess Ransmore, who's like an Adidas teammate. um Yeah, one thing that's been awesome about the team is that everyone's, like it is very much a team, everyone's a part of it.
00:04:35
Speaker
I hadn't met Jess before I've come here, but ah he's looked after me a lot and kind of showed me around. um Cade Michael, I think his last name is, he's also did a session with us morning. He's like young. I think he's might maybe my age. He's up and coming in and Seth Ruling was out there as well.
00:04:52
Speaker
um So that was pretty cool. like you know couple of pretty bloody good runners. It was nice to do some work with them. And there's just so many so many runners here. Like kind of every run I meet someone new and and it's always someone's name I recognize, which is, you know, a couple of pinch yourself moments, but it's it's awesome. It's awesome here. Yeah. and Are you finding fitness-wise on those sort of runs absolutely fine running with those guys?
00:05:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. The altitude here is is actually – Like I'm really noticing it. um We're at 1700, which in the scheme of things isn't that high. You know, people training at Font-Remo, that's 2-2.
00:05:32
Speaker
Flagstaff is 2-1. um But I historically have been really bad at altitude, and so that's why I wanted to come here. particularly because it's not super high, but I can still get up high. Like you can run up to nearly 3000 meters from town.
00:05:45
Speaker
Um, and, but yeah, no, it's fine. Like I did the whole session with the guys today. um I'm coming off, like I raced my longest race ever three weeks ago yeah, three weeks ago. So I'm still not doing heaps of volume or nothing massive, but it's fine. Like, um, yeah, I'm running with all the guys and like,
00:06:09
Speaker
You know, i did the whole session with them today and was in control. So, you know, it's pretty good sign, I think. Pretty happy with that. Very good signs. It's curious to see, like, how you're falling in the world scene, as we're going to talk about shortly, Transvacania, and just kind of being able to actually put, okay, this is where the top in Australia lies worldwide, which is it's interesting. Like, from my perspective following the sport, I like to see it, and it's good to hear you're keeping up.
00:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, at least. If I was getting dropped in um in easy rounds and long rounds, I think I might have to have a good hard look at myself. Fair enough. Okay, we've mentioned a couple of things there. Before we do get into Transylkine, and as I think this will set the scene, you've recently announced a switch from ASICS to Adidas.
00:06:51
Speaker
It looks like, it Adidas South Africa that you're associated with? Or is that just, I found your profile on their Yeah. Oh, no. Oh, that's funny. I didn't know that. No, no, no. It's the um it's the global team.
00:07:04
Speaker
Oh, cool. Okay, sweet. I have no idea why they end up on.co.za. Interesting. um Translocania is an added race. what like Was that one of the reasons why you chose to go to Translocania?
00:07:18
Speaker
I actually wanted to go to Transylvania before I even knew Terex was on the table. um fans of Fans of Australian trail running will know that Blake Hose in 2015 had a phenomenal performance there, running 7.19 for third, beating guys like Zach Miller and Dakota.
00:07:38
Speaker
um So ever since I started the sport, it's something I wanted to do and um speak. Blake's my coach, so he always talks about it. He always talks about how hard that race is, how beautiful that island is.
00:07:53
Speaker
um And I was just super excited. Mikey as well. Last year at some point, we both planned to come. And then it's ah like it's a really expensive place to go if you have to pay for it.
00:08:06
Speaker
um So when the Terex opportunity came along and you know we basically have a calendar of team races, saw it on the calendar and i was like, all right. that's the one I really want to do that.
00:08:18
Speaker
Um, another reason it's 75 K. um I'm looking to like step up in distance and I figured 75 was like, I mean, obviously it's the perfect middle distance between a hundred K and 50 K. Uh, in the end, it turned out to be basically as long as a lot of hundred K's like, you know, it's,
00:08:39
Speaker
It's about as long as it's longer than I would expect to run it at Tawira 100 there. But I think it was a really good way to kind of dip my toe in longer races without having to jump in.
00:08:53
Speaker
Okay. That's really interesting. And one of the questions I actually was going to come to later, but it works now is your relationship with Blake. He's coached you since 2022. Is that right? Yeah.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah. Like how has his experience shaped what the way, the direction that you've got in the sport? Um, Blake is amazing at, like, I think Blake learnt some pretty hard lessons in the sport and and I think he'd say that.
00:09:21
Speaker
um And so one thing he's done really well um is basically impart, like, a sense of calm and a belief in in our in development.
00:09:35
Speaker
Like, um Blake is always about, you know There's no need to do anything stupid. you know' get You don't get good from just going out and running 200K a week or doing these massive long runs. like That's not the way to get good and that's not a sustainable way to develop.
00:09:51
Speaker
um So Blake has been amazing in just in slowly building things and I'm a massive believer in Blake. like I know firsthand how strong he is.
00:10:02
Speaker
So... Yeah, I've always just tried to learn as much as I can. And whilst I know maybe coaching me might be frustrating for Blake sometimes, um but yeah, I've learned so much of him and I wouldn't be the runner I am today, you know, if it wasn't for Blake.
00:10:19
Speaker
so In what ways would coaching you be frustrating? oh, I probably get a text, I'd say at least once a month saying, can you stop with the volume or can you stop with the extras or did you need to ride like eight hours this week?
00:10:36
Speaker
um And so I know when I get that text, you know, maybe I've gone a bit too far and I knock it back and then... Three weeks later, I'm doing the same thing and I get the same text. um So I've always got that little Blake in the back of my head. He might not know it, but yeah know every time I go for a ride, if it might be an hour, you know I'm thinking about doing two hours, but I've got that little Blake in the back of my head saying, don't be an idiot.
00:10:57
Speaker
And yeah yeah, that's helped a lot. That's given me a really interesting mental image there. Thank you for that. Yeah, yeah. I think we all have the little black in the back of our head. All right. So coming back to a bit more recent, Adidas, how did that come about?
00:11:16
Speaker
Because obviously ASICS has only been going since sort of March 24th. Yeah. Um, look, to be honest, James, like it's still really surreal. Um, I basically woke up one morning to a message from a German number saying, Hey Charlie, it's Robert from Adidas.
00:11:34
Speaker
I'd love to have a chat. Um, And like, obviously Adidas is a team that I've looked up to for years. And I literally had a five year plan in my running. And the end of that goal was to have some results good enough to get onto Adidas Terex.
00:11:49
Speaker
um And, you know, I, Yeah, I ah thought I was, I thought someone was kind of taking the piss or like having a joke with me and and I, you know, i had a call and it was this German guy on the end of the phone and he was telling me how he wanted to sign me and all these, all these ridiculous things that as Australian runners, you know, unless you're Lucy, like unless you're a superstar.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah. We have to fight really hard for. um And I basically jumped at it. Yeah. I had had a contract with ASICS for this year.
00:12:22
Speaker
um Eventually negotiated with them that I'd stay with them until after Buffalo, yeah which actually worked out really well. Like I had an amazing time at Buffalo. um ah got to kind of finish it off really well with a win in the 23 again or the 21. And then, so yeah, officially joined Adidas as of the start of April.
00:12:43
Speaker
yeah And yeah, like it's still surreal. Like, Every now and then I'll get an email from but asking for something or Translucania was full of it or even being here. like I always thought Adidas was the best team in the world and I'm so lucky.
00:13:01
Speaker
And I'm yes still just blown away by the fact that I get to put on that pro kit that you know I've seen Ruth Croft race in or I've seen Petter or Dan Jones and put those shoes on and...
00:13:12
Speaker
and go out and race. So, um yeah, I'm still still just in awe of it, really. yeah So, that five-year plan, what was it about Adidas back then that made you go, this is the goal? Yeah, I think I come from a cycling background and in cycling, like, the team is is everything.
00:13:35
Speaker
Obviously, for different reasons in cycling, you have team tactics and blah, blah, blah. But I just always liked about Adidas how, They always seemed so cohesive and um they all ran for each other. They were all good friends. They all would train together if they were together, whereas a lot of other trail running brands, you know, function kind of as like, here's your money, here's your gear.
00:13:59
Speaker
You're an individual athlete, go do your thing. And I totally understand how... For a lot of people, that's what they want. But I really wanted the team aspect of it. um I'm a big fan of the sport, and so I kind of wanted to be able to get inside, you know, like have be part of the culture and be part of everything.
00:14:16
Speaker
And that's what Adidas is allowing me to do. um Yeah, I just – I've always looked at their stuff. Yeah. the Apparently the shoes were really good and they are really good. So there's just so many things that I liked about the team. And yeah, I think from day one, you know, I'd always said Adidas is the goal and that's what i where I want to get to. And, you know, ah yeah, somewhat.
00:14:41
Speaker
That's incredible. but Now, having been in the team, obviously, for only for the last like two months, but getting to interact with everyone in there, from the outside looking in, everything that you just said is what it appears to be.
00:14:54
Speaker
Is that what your experience has been so far? Yeah. Yeah, pretty well. um Yeah, it was it's it's awesome. like everyone Everyone is such good friends because everyone's been on the team for so long. like you know, there's not many people that leave the team. If they do, they've been there for like six or nine years.
00:15:12
Speaker
yeah Um, everyone at Transylvania had been on there for ages. um It's just like, it really is like you take part in in the races and the events together, which is really cool. And if there's an event on, I mean, probably everyone has this, like everyone's going, everyone's congratulating each other and um it really cares about each other's running, which yeah which I really appreciate. It's awesome. And being a new guy and, you know, not having, like I have so much to learn from these people,
00:15:43
Speaker
like um like Ruth, for example, or Dimitri. have so much to learn from these people and and they're happy to share. in they and I'm asking stupid questions and they're answering them happily, which is yeah pretty awesome.
00:15:57
Speaker
Can you think of any examples of stuff that you've learned so far the top your head? um No, I can't. Before the team came over for Transvolcano, I got there like – I got to the island like four or five days early and Ruth was there as well and ended up just staying with Ruth.
00:16:16
Speaker
And we kind of just putter around for a few days. And I do, i feel sorry for her because ah would just be sitting there. We'd be sitting in the happy silence and then I'd be like, Hey Ruth, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we'd just ask her a million questions and she's like, okay, right. Give me a second.
00:16:29
Speaker
And we'd answer them and then be like, okay, nice. Think for a second and ask a bunch more. so yeah, really cool. Given that this is the first time you've been on the international team, ah Hocker and ASICs are both Australian.
00:16:42
Speaker
Is there any noticeable differences just in that respect at the moment? Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, in Australia, like we are very lucky, I think as Australians, because we're kind of our own, the Australian trial market is its own little thing.
00:16:58
Speaker
Um, we have brands that have big, you know, like Hoka has a big thing in Australia and so does ASICS and, um, and that's, that's really special.
00:17:09
Speaker
Um, but I mean, the, like it, We had to – I always had to fight for a lot. and And fair enough, you know. Like, it's a smaller market and I like didn't have the results or the cred or anything to kind of warrant anything. But anything I did get, we really had to to fight for. And that's, you know, things like travel and any extra supports, bonuses.
00:17:35
Speaker
But um the international team – like, Terex is just set up so well and there are so many things that are just easy and just made easy for you. At the race, at Transvolcano, I didn't have to think about a single thing. I'd get a text in the morning with like, here's what you have to do today. Here's where you have to be.
00:17:53
Speaker
um We'll drive you to X. um Here are the cruise stations, blah, blah, blah. Give us what you need. We'll look after it. um And then other things like – Things like travel, like travel running is an expensive sport and yeah I'm still a uni student. So like, I don't have that. I don't have a bunch of money.
00:18:11
Speaker
Um, and it's really expensive to do things, uh, like to, to, to get the results or to like get your name out there, or to do the things, you know, we want to do in the sport. You have to go over to Europe or you have to come to America and you have to race.
00:18:27
Speaker
And that's really expensive. Um, like a lot of us spend, Yeah, we we come over each year and we spend half of what we earn to to go and race at OCC or to to try something. And I think because so often in this sport you have to learn a lot of things and you have to fail a lot of times to to figure it out and to get the results and there's so much development that has to happen, it's just really expensive. And I always looked at it as I'm investing in myself. Yeah.
00:19:02
Speaker
But it gets hard when it's like the third or fourth year in a row and you're like, know, I need to, I don't need to, but like I'm going to go do this international trip. yeah um It's like it becomes a really big investment.
00:19:13
Speaker
And now luckily like I'm in a situation where I don't, like I have someone that has invested in me and, and, and yeah, that's incredible. Like, you know, signed a three year contract.
00:19:27
Speaker
I was told that, um, I have, there's no expectations of me, you know, for the first two years. Like Robert told me this year, he's like, He doesn't expect me to to do anything this year, but he just wants me to learn. And so he's like, pick the pick the races where you think you can learn something.
00:19:44
Speaker
and And that's my goal for this year and next year is to to do really competitive races, to do races where I think I can have an opportunity, but... like without any pressure um because I've got three years basically.
00:19:59
Speaker
And in the third year, hopefully things have gone well, 2027, like hopefully I can have have had some good results by then and maybe warrant, you know, another three-year contract or whatever it is.
00:20:09
Speaker
um But I think that's the main thing is is I've always had one-year contracts and and now I just have this this backing behind me where, um yeah, I don't have to – to pay for things as such or like I can do what I need to do to develop without the stress of worrying about money or a contract or know whatever it is yeah it strikes me that that that security of having a three-year contract must mean the world for you not to have to pick the races that you have to do versus what you need to do for yeah and there there definitely is like there definitely is an aspect of that of going like
00:20:48
Speaker
you know I fought so hard to get x amount of money like a little bit of money this year to help pay for my trail racing and if I don't do these races to kind of appease the brand or these races that you know maybe if I get a result I can I can warrant a good contract like it is really it is really hard and and you know a lot of us have been fighting for a long time and like I look around and there's so many of us like that's know I'm really proud to be from running from Australia because there are so many of us that are fighting so hard to do it and Yeah, like i it's it's it's awesome that that we all do that.
00:21:22
Speaker
and And I hope, you know, I definitely foresee quite a few more of us getting opportunities like, you know, I've been able to grab. Okay, well so thats so that's something that was coming to mind is given that your like you're not the only international athlete, like you said, Lucy is on there.
00:21:40
Speaker
Top of my mind, I wouldn't know anybody else in Australia on an international contract. Would you know of anyone? Yeah, no, maybe similar for a bit back. i couldn't really say. I'm not sure. Okay, so it's a very much ah a unique opportunity, but what do you think that you getting the contract means potentially for Australian trail running?
00:21:59
Speaker
Well, for sure. I mean, look, let's be honest. I think the reason that I ended up on the team is maybe because Australia is like a bit of an emerging market. um Like results alone, there's probably like 50 other dudes or 50 other girls that could have been signed to Adidas that have better results than me.
00:22:16
Speaker
um But the the fact that... um Yeah, they they they're looking to Australia. It means that that the market in Australia is growing, which is awesome because there will be more investment into races. There will be more investment into the athletes themselves.
00:22:35
Speaker
um And, you know, like there is, I can think of 10 Australians off the top of my head that all they need is like one pretty good race and, you know, who knows opportunities that could lie ahead for them.
00:22:47
Speaker
um So I think it is i think it is awesome. and um I'm always going to be really open about, about my contract and, um and I'm happy to talk to people about it, especially people that are ah fighting for, to to try and get these opportunities. And, you know, like Australian trail runners are worth something to these brands is, is what is kind of what Mikey and I have always talked about. Like, you know, a podium at UTA is worth something to these brands.
00:23:16
Speaker
So, um like fighting to these results in Australia, they they do matter and and you are worth something like getting a result at and a single track race or bubble blah, blah is worth something. So and anyone who's who's kind of trying to race elite and they're getting results, like if you're talking to a brand, come and talk to me. Like I've had i've been through three different brands so I can kind of talk to what it can be like.
00:23:40
Speaker
um And i really think Australians should be fighting for themselves and and fighting for what they're worth. So yeah. Hypothetically, let's say that you've just potumed at UTA, you're unsponsored, potentially newer to the sport.
00:23:55
Speaker
What we would, what advice would you give to that person to try and seek out a brand deal? I think the key thing that you said there, James was new to the sport.
00:24:05
Speaker
Um, In Australia, in particularly, what the community cares about and what the but the brands want, what the community can care about is being very involved in the sport. Like you see a lot of people come into the sport and they get one or good two good results and then all of a sudden they're like, I'm expecting X. And yeah, maybe they're worth X. But um what what really matters is being part of the community. um Yeah.
00:24:34
Speaker
Like really at the end of the day, we're kind of here to sell shoes or here to sell kit. yeah um And you need to be a part of you need to be a part of it to do that. So spending time in the scene, going to races that you might not even be racing at or when you're at a race, hanging around after the finish line, talking to everyone, getting to know everyone, I think that goes a really long way because – the network effect in in Australian trial running is real and um investing like yeah investing yourself and your time into the sport is probably one way I'd go about it.
00:25:10
Speaker
yeah um And then by meeting people, you know, the people that but sponsor runners are usually at events or they're around, so you'll just end up meeting them and then you you'll kind of – things will happen from there.
00:25:24
Speaker
But I think you can't expect – No one can expect a contract just because you have a result or two. like um You do have to to spend the time. you know I think what you said there is really important that you are part of the marketing budget for a brand. is yeah they're not Brands aren't giving people money out the goodness of their heart to go and run for fun. like It is to sell product and yeah raise awareness or so for some community activation perspectives. i think that's really, really important. Do you get the impression that there could potentially be an Australia or Oceana Adidas team in the near future?
00:26:01
Speaker
No, I think that's not the way that the Adidas function. I know that we are, yeah, they're they're based out of Germany and they're and like I could be wrong, yeah but I'm pretty sure that there's no plan on having like, um, local based teams.
00:26:16
Speaker
yeah Um, but who knows that might change, but you even look around like different brands are kind of changing how they function. Like I know in the U S for example, Solomon, um, now only have Courtney, I think as a U S based athlete or they don't have any people on the local thing. Like they're focusing more on their international team. Um, um,
00:26:37
Speaker
So yeah, yeah, I'm not really sure. No, no, it makes sense. And there was a really good, there's really good newsletter called trail mix where they broke down what Salomon was doing in terms of, they just had this abundance of athletes all over the place, but not really gaining anything and stripping it back to that core group. So that definitely runs through. When you had that first phone call, what did they say it was about you specifically that they wanted?
00:27:04
Speaker
I don't know and I still don't know. I actually i still can't tell you how my name came across Robert's desk. I've spent a lot of time thinking about that. I don't know how Robert, who is involved at the highest level of the sport, heard about a guy who like maybe won UTA 50, you know, like. yeah um But, yeah, it's it somehow came across his desk and, you know, pretty happy that it did.
00:27:32
Speaker
No, it's very, very cool. would be a very great but it Okay, let's move on to the the running side of things. The last time we had you on the podcast was for the Trail 2 series for Asia Pacific Champs.
00:27:44
Speaker
That didn't go quite as you had to plan by all accounts. How did what happened there inform the rest of your season? Because you did mention that you had an entry to Kepler that you didn't take.
00:27:57
Speaker
yeah Yeah, no. um I needed a big a big time off. I even think running that career race, I was tired. Like um last year, you know, I had a really big first half of the year with Tara Weera into Buffalo, into UTA.
00:28:13
Speaker
And I went, you know, i invested so heavily into into those three races. um There were three races that were really important to me. And so, you know, when I – get really excited about a race it's it's all I can think about and I invest yeah oh my but got so much thought into like the training of it and and and how to do things right how to do all three races and so I think I recognised after UTA that I was just tired you know and when you're tired not just you know tired because I've done a hard session or a big long run just more like exhausted um it becomes harder to turn up to do a session to run hard or
00:28:53
Speaker
to to be like to think about you know where is the best long run for this and then, all right, I've got to drive an hour and a bit out to this long run. um I find that quite hard. And so I think I'd recognise that I was kind of at my limit um and I just wanted a big switch off. After I came back from...
00:29:11
Speaker
career ah I didn't really think about running for a month. I don't think I ran. ah didn't even jog for three weeks. I just rode my bike. I did big bikepacking trip with my dad. I did a couple of bike races and then kind of came back into running on my own terms.
00:29:25
Speaker
and And I'm so glad I did because I came back so refreshed. And then, you know, once I picked a race and once I'd found some direction after having that complete time where I didn't think about running at all, um I was like really ready I was really ready to get back into it. and And then you can kind of have a nice build back in where you don't have to start flogging yourself straight away.
00:29:48
Speaker
um ah had a long enough time between the races. Like after I had my month, I still had, I think, four months or something until Transylvania. Yeah. yeah I could really spend the time to to build back up.
00:30:00
Speaker
And I'm so glad I did that. And I think that's something I'll aim to do every year at least is to pick, right, here's a time when, you know, I don't have ah four or five months between races and I can really back off.
00:30:12
Speaker
I think that's hard for Australians all lot of the time because... We race towards the start of the year in Australia and then we go to Europe and then we come back and then we have, you know, there's GPT or COSI or something at the end of the year. And then it's Taraweer time and you need to start training for Taraweer and then the cycle happens again. So it's hard to do, but I think it's really important to schedule that time off.
00:30:36
Speaker
Yeah. If you weren't doing any international racing, when would you structure a down time in your year? Probably after UTA, I'd say, for an Australian runner. Like that first start of the year, you know, you can do Tarawea or UTA or you can do Buffalo UTA or, I mean, there's there's a million other races you could do.
00:30:56
Speaker
um If UTA is a big goal or if Buffalo is a big goal, then that's probably a good time to do it. Okay. doing the actual race at age Pacific, aside from coming in potentially a bit, a bit just needing a rest, was there anything that that race highlighted that you needed to work on going forward?
00:31:15
Speaker
Yeah. I'm so bad at technical stuff. Um, like Rocky technical stuff. I always know I'm bad. Like, Um, and, and especially when I get tired, I get really bad at it. And that race was technical, like right towards the end.
00:31:31
Speaker
Um, and in fact, it just, it just wore me down. Um, that's something I really need to work on, especially for racing in Europe. Like. These people just – and even training with Mikey and Blake, like these guys are so good. If it's technical, they just don't skip a beat. They never miss a line.
00:31:50
Speaker
And I just find myself labouring through it. So that's something that I'm really going to work on, especially like if I have races where it's a need. um I really need to spend time on on that.
00:32:01
Speaker
Okay. ah The rest of the race, because obviously there were some pretty steep, long climbs in there, you felt – how did you feel for that that kind of stuff? I felt strong. I actually think my downfall in that race, i put myself mentally out of it.
00:32:16
Speaker
I had a really bad descent. I fell over a couple of times. um This one descent, like, into one of the aid stations was so long and crazy. It wasn't even a trail.
00:32:27
Speaker
It was a riverbed that had running water down it and sharp rocks. And John Afina, the Stingray, came flying past me as um I thought I was moving pretty well in this one section. Yeah.
00:32:39
Speaker
And he came past me like I was walking. like Like I was someone walking on the trail and he was doing a session. like He flew past me. And i think i think i Yeah, mentally i put myself out of that race, which is something that can happen in these races. I think the best the best runners are are really mentally strong.
00:32:59
Speaker
And that's something that I really recognize need to work on is is being consistently strong mentally the whole time. um So, yeah, I think that was that was what went wrong there among a couple other things.
00:33:14
Speaker
But that's cool, you know. Sorry, are you actively doing anything like either in the race or or outside to work on that mental resilience? Yeah, yeah, of course. It's something I've been thinking about a lot. And my plan is when i get back to Australia to to ah we start working with a sports psychologist because, you know, now I've got budget to do that kind of thing. um But so over the over the break, over my kind of off season and and working back on did this race, I thought a lot about that.
00:33:43
Speaker
um And, you know you know, we'll get to Transvolcania, but there were sections where, you know, maybe that that beat me for a little bit there, but I was able to come back and I was able to work through that. And so that's a ah step in the right direction, which I'm really happy with.
00:33:56
Speaker
Let's take it to Transvolcania. You can touch on sort of Buffalo as part of that that build as as we talk. The standout feature from Transbukane this year was the weather. It was expected to be hot and instead half the field sounds like they got hypothermia. So you're coming in, like doing heat training. i thought you I saw you were doing some active heat training in there. You were doing some hot cars, which sounds that sounds like pretty miserable. yeah And then you've switch into this. like How much lead up ah knowledge did you have of what the conditions were going to be like?
00:34:29
Speaker
Oh, it was chaos. Yeah, like I did so much heat training. Like I was so ready for a hot race. um And, you know, Mikey and I had been talking about, you know, ah like Australians, we have this advantage in these first half of the year races where Europeans and Americans are coming from the cold and they're going to struggle where we've been running in the heat for six months.
00:34:50
Speaker
In the days leading up, You know, like we were kind of – we'd look at the weather and where the hotel is was hot as – it would be like 33 degrees. like and the day The day before, it was hot as.
00:35:01
Speaker
Every now and then it'd get a bit windy or like some other parts of the island would be a bit cold. And the top of the island, the whole time I was there, the whole week, was in in the cloud. But it was just assumed that it would be hot.
00:35:13
Speaker
And then we were looking at this weather and it was like, oh, it's just meant to rain. Like, no way. You look up at the sky and its blue skies. Like – There's no way it's going to rain tomorrow. It couldn't possibly rain.
00:35:25
Speaker
And ah so I decided the night before to bring a pack because I was like, oh I'll bring a little thin rain jacket just in case it gets really bad. um I was going to wear a belt and decided to wear a pack. And then we literally get to the start line and it's pissing down on the start line.
00:35:40
Speaker
And everyone's kind like, what the hell? Like, this is not this is not what I signed up for. I signed up for a hot island race. And that's what everyone was talking about. Like, you know, I was running with the front pack for the first like two hours. And the whole time we were like,
00:35:50
Speaker
but the hell? Why is it raining? But it was weird where it was like sometimes it would be fine, but then sometimes it would be this like, and this is in the first two hours, there'd be this like massive gale and hail would come across in the rain and it was freezing. It was so cold. So you put your rain jacket on and then because you're running uphill, you get hot. The rain would stop and you get hot. So you take it off.
00:36:11
Speaker
and have to put it back on, take it off. Like it happened, I reckon I took my jacket four or five times in the first two hours. Yeah, that's a very tough, because especially if you're your heat acclimized, the last thing you want is for it to be cold.
00:36:25
Speaker
You're going to just feel that so much more. ah Aside from the conditions, the actual lead in, kind of the travel, and then you were over there for about seven days before the race started, how had all of that gone? like how were you feeling about the race?
00:36:40
Speaker
I think it went as well as it could. um Like I said, i could ah could, like I got over there as early as I could. i finished uni basically and the day I finished uni left and and that got me there seven days before the race.
00:36:55
Speaker
um I got super lucky. I didn't feel jet lagged. I was sleeping well. I felt really good running straight away. um I think the lead in went about as well as it could go. And then, like I said, when the team got there, like, I don't have to think about anything. I can just put my legs up in the hotel room or go hang out with some of the guys. Like, yeah, I felt, i felt really good and I felt really calm leading into the race. I think because, because, you know, a seven and a half hour races is not something I've ever done. I i had no idea.
00:37:27
Speaker
ah had no idea and I had no expectations and, I kept, that's something I kept repeating to myself. He's like, no expectations, no expectations, just do what you have to do. um I felt really calm because of that, because I was at the start line. I was like, contract wise, it doesn't matter.
00:37:41
Speaker
No one else here knows who I am. So no one expects me to race. Well, um, i don't know what's going to happen. I'll just kind of start racing and see.
00:37:53
Speaker
So I felt really calm, which was felt amazing. Like starting race, feeling calm. I've never felt like that before. You know, you're always anxious. So yeah, I think that was awesome. um I don't know how I got into that headspace, but I'm going to try and bring that headspace into all my other races.
00:38:10
Speaker
I was actually wondering, after what happened at Buffalo 2024, and you even mentioned that that might have been the race of your life up to that point. It's just, unfortunately, in a bad initial start issue. I was wondering if you were somebody that actually raced the best with heightened emotions and that that kind of helped get the most out of you. But it sounds like actually it's almost the opposite. It's that calmness.
00:38:33
Speaker
that's what i always thought. When I raced in Australia, I liked it. I like to put pressure on myself. yeah Um, and I liked, I liked that. I have to feel pressure. um you know, I feel like I have to do it for X reason or, and that's definitely a good thing, but it was interesting. But also the racing was so different because it's a longer race.
00:38:52
Speaker
You're not on the gas from the go. It's very calm. Yeah. Um, and in fact it's easy for the first little bit. So i think that was just different. Okay. So Transfocania, for anyone that does know has heard of the course or followed it, essentially it's uphill for what looks like fifty k Yeah. ah you've already mentioned the first two hours you're running with a pack. How, aside from the weather conditions, how are you feeling at that point?
00:39:16
Speaker
Yeah, I felt amazing, actually. i was i was confused because I was like, this is so easy. And in the end, we were running 345, 350 gap for that first two hours. So, like, we weren't running that – we were running fast. But um I was just having a great time, like – you know I'm in a group, there's like Andreas Ryder, there's Peter Frano, there might have been kind of Haydn. Matt Daniels was there. So I ran with him a lot and the Euros don't love having a chat in a race, but Matt and I were having a yarn and I was saying I was coming over to Boulder, so he was telling me all about Boulder, which was really cool. um
00:39:54
Speaker
And yeah you basically start and it's... you know, 12% for the first two hours. And then there's, you know, 20 minutes of flat running and then you run uphill again for another two and a bit hours.
00:40:06
Speaker
um And we were just kind of cruising. It felt really good. And and that was that was really nice. I kind of, one thing I had worried about a lot coming into the race was like, am I not going to be able to even run with these guys for the first hour?
00:40:24
Speaker
And, you know, if so, you know I've got this new contract, I'm on this site big new team and what if I can't even hang on for the first bit? like How embarrassing.
00:40:34
Speaker
um And so i I was able to kind of calm myself down and just run and just have a good time. um I knew that it was going to get a lot, it was going to get hard later but for those first two hours there, it was it was amazing. like was just running with this group.
00:40:53
Speaker
It was dark. My head torch didn't work. So I had to like follow someone really closely and try and like watch where their head torch went. Like my nutrition was going down well. I was having an amazing time and it hadn't gotten too, it was cold and hadn't gotten too cold yet. So yeah things went really well. And yeah, for the first little while.
00:41:10
Speaker
What was the start time? 6am. Okay. So not too bad. Not not too bad. And i just looking at your Strava now is sort of there, that first first two hours, 1000 meters, 403 gap, was the intention always to go with the pack, regardless of what that meant?
00:41:28
Speaker
um No, no. i i wanted to run. I wanted to be calm and I wanted to run to an effort that I thought I could run to for a long time. Like my mentality was right now, could I do this effort for another seven hours?
00:41:42
Speaker
That was all like until the finish, that was what I wanted to think about the whole time. um They were like every now and then Matt Daniels like attacked, you know, and and or I would like – be running with someone and we're a little bit off the front and I'd be like, why am I doing this? And I'd drop back and they'd run off by themselves for bit then they'd come back. Or like at one point, Andreas Ryder like sprinted up one of the steep hills.
00:42:05
Speaker
Um, and we all kind of like looked around and like, that's weird. And so we just settled back into it. And I was, I was really happy that like, it it felt, it felt rather than just like a full gas effort. Like it actually felt like a race. Like people were, people would push here to see what would happen or, um,
00:42:25
Speaker
And I was just able to be really settled and really calm and just focus on my nutrition and trying to stay warm, yeah which, you know, went pretty well. How does that front pack dynamic compare to Australian trail races?
00:42:39
Speaker
Well, see, in Australian trail races, like, I'm a little bit of an idiot. So, like, I like to be at the front and I don't like to have anyone in front of me at all ever. um And so it was nice because I didn't have to worry about it I was like – You I'm just running like it doesn't matter if I'm eighth in this group or whatever it is like I'm just just running. Yeah.
00:43:01
Speaker
Okay. ah You alluded earlier that it hadn't got too cold yet. After that two hour point, you you could go downhill for a little bit, but then you like said you keep climbing till the 50k mark.
00:43:13
Speaker
When did things start getting a little bit hectic? Yeah, so just before 20K, you about get above 2,000 metres and you're up on this, like, one of the first volcanoes.
00:43:25
Speaker
um And up there, it was crazy. Like, there was this – at one point, there was ah there was a headwind and it felt like – I reckon and I would have been running, like, seven minutes a K, like – you know, squeezing, like working hard. and then And then the wind would like switch and it was pushing you from behind and you'd be flying.
00:43:44
Speaker
um Wow. It got really got really cold up there. um You eventually drop down back into a forest and then run on a flat bit for a little bit. But that was the first place where I was like, I'm actually, like I'm already starting to feel really cold.
00:44:00
Speaker
um And there was a really steep sandy pinch. Yeah. And that's what I think ah David Sinclair attacked up there. and so I kind of let five guys, like there was five of them, I let them go. um i told myself, I was like, ah know two of these guys up the front here will blow up. la um like So I'm just going to to try and run by myself and get settled.
00:44:28
Speaker
And if I can run strong to the top of the climb, like hopefully I can pull them back and run. you know, who knows what happens from there. But that's when it got really cold. Like once ah I was by myself, this like wind started coming across and the rain was so cold.
00:44:44
Speaker
um Then we came into this aid station and there's a little bit of running and I was able to settle down and kind of start taking it over. But, that That section there was kind of a ah a little prelude to like what was going to happen on that ridge. And we're on the ridge from 30 to 50K for two and a half, three hours.
00:45:02
Speaker
um And that was, once we got up there, it was terrifying. It was so scary. ah At any point were you thinking like this is not safe, I need to stop? Well, there's nowhere go. Like okay you're you're up on this ridge and like, and even if, you know, that the island does safety very well and and anyone who did end up pulling out um got out safely, but there's no way to go up there. like you're out yeah and Also, even if there wasn't even a guy, I couldn't see.
00:45:32
Speaker
like You could could barely see the trail ahead of you. The fog was that heavy. so I didn't know if I'd... Maybe there was a road 20 meters to the left. I couldn't tell you if there was or not. Jeez.
00:45:44
Speaker
When the weather gets bad like that, it must be very easy for things like your nutrition, your hydration, just to completely go out of mind, whether it's just like you can't access it or or it's you're just kind of so hyper-focused.
00:45:55
Speaker
Did you start to fall off your nutrition plan during this period? No, that's something that actually I managed to keep going really well. And that was coming into the race. Like that's one of the major things I wanted. You know, I'm on that classic, like I'm trying to rip 120 an hour now. yeah And, and you know, that's something I'm going to have to do. And so that's something I really wanted to do very well. And throughout the whole, like I managed 122 grams or something an hour for the whole race.
00:46:24
Speaker
Um, So that managed to to to be nailed. But I think once we got up on that ridge, looking back now, it was definitely the altitude as well because you kind of get to 2,000 metres and you slowly climb up to 2,400, but you're above 2,000 metres for a long time.
00:46:41
Speaker
um And so i wasn't moving very fast. It was really cold. I moved pretty well until – until maybe 44K and then things kind of like really fell apart because I'd been cold. I think once I'd been cold for two hours, two to three hours, that's when it started getting bad. Like it's okay when you just get cold on a run. Yeah. um But when you when you've been cold for hours and um the altitude was whooping my ass, I started to feel pretty sorry for myself and –
00:47:12
Speaker
um Things got really hard. And for a while there, actually, was going to pull out at the 50k aid station at Rock Dilemma Chachos, which is the top of the volcano.
00:47:23
Speaker
um Because I'd been passed by quite a few people and I just felt, I felt terrible. I was shivering, like my jaw was shivering. it just, it was so hard up there. It was so hard.
00:47:37
Speaker
What was the terrain like underfoot? Oh, it'd be beautiful to run if was it wasn't freezing cold. to i it b yeah I really want to go back and do that race again just so I can see it. like Apparently, Blake talks about the views being beautiful. It's really nice run. like It's not too technical. The descent is kind of technical, but it's not too bad. Okay, so you're freezing, but at least you're not having to navigate ah highly technical terrain at the same time.
00:48:02
Speaker
You said you've been passed by a few people. Did you have anyone to run with around that sort of 44 to 50K mark? Um, like, no, i'm not really. Like I got someone who passed me and I'd run with them for 10 minutes and then, then that dropped me. Like I was running really well. Anything that wasn't steep, I was moving. i was able to move really, really well.
00:48:22
Speaker
Um, and in, in, better, like I could tell i was running, i was able to run better than the guys that were past me. But it as soon as we would start climbing, um I was just like, I wasn't strong enough.
00:48:33
Speaker
Yeah. Was the issue. And so they all came past me and then, um yeah, we got into that 50k station, which is the start of the descent. And basically from there, you disc descend the whole way home. Yeah.
00:48:45
Speaker
And like I said, I pretty much planned was going to pull out up there. um But I came to this aid station and up there was Dmitry Mutyev and Rob, basically like a big tough German bloke and a ridiculously fast, super tough Russian bloke.
00:49:02
Speaker
And so I came in and I was shivering. And i like went to whinge. Like I just wanted to whinge to someone. You know, when when you feel tired, you just want to have a whinge. And I was like, I'm so cold. And that Rob was like, shut up.
00:49:15
Speaker
There's four dudes within 30 seconds. They're just there. and then Dimitri literally like pushed me out of the aid station, like put my bottles in and then pushed me out of the aid station.
00:49:26
Speaker
And I was just kind of like, I guess I've just got to run like back downhill. Like I've just got to run might as run home now. Like it's going to be easier way to get back. So I'm really glad I got out of that aid station. Yeah.
00:49:39
Speaker
Because things just turned around and i I actually felt really good. And I did, I caught, know, I think it came into that aid station 12th and I caught a bunch of people straight away. um i came into there with ah an Adidas Terex teammate called um Pablo Villa who,
00:49:56
Speaker
You know, he's had some amazing results there. and he had passed me on the climb. He probably passed me four or five K before. And I really felt like I got a lot of encouragement seeing him in that aid station at the same time as me because I'm like, I thought I was moving terribly.
00:50:12
Speaker
If a guy like this, you know, hasn't been able to put that much time into me, I mustn't be moving too bad. So I've just got to keep moving and who knows what can happen on the descent.
00:50:23
Speaker
Before we go into the descent, something that just reminded me of in an old cosy film, you mentioned how going to Europe sort of taught you how to climb. And I want to do so if you can remember that, it's going back a couple years now, but to talk about like what the lessons that taught you and then you still said there that you weren't climbing well, obviously altitude probably was a really big factor. But if there's anything particular that you'd noticed that you weren't doing well on the climbs.
00:50:48
Speaker
I don't know. i think um i think maybe like I'm not necessarily super strong. Like a guy like Mikey, you know, he's a big, strong guy and he's able to just climb really well and really consistently. Whereas like I'm like i'm a runner. Like that's where my biomechanics fit.
00:51:05
Speaker
um That's just kind of what I know I'm good at. Like I can run and I can run do runnable climbs really well, but steep climbs is something that I find tough. Um, and especially like when I get tired, I start climbing not as fast.
00:51:18
Speaker
So that's just something that you kind of have to work on really like with, with races like this when the climbs are so long. Yeah. i Having to work on it for you. Does that just mean literally practicing it Yeah, I think so. i think.
00:51:34
Speaker
it's just getting onto these climbs. Like we don't have heaps of them around Canberra. We have really good climbs. I can go and climb for 30 minutes. Um, but I can't go and climb for an hour or an hour and a half, which is like, you know, OCC is three or four hour long climbs.
00:51:49
Speaker
So it's just something I need to do. And look, it's, that's just something that, um, I know I need to work on and I just will, um, over time, like I can get there. I know I can. So,
00:52:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It speaks to you don't have to do everything in and one go trying to get better at all. Yeah. Okay. So you've come out, well, you haven't, you haven't come out, you've been shoved out of the A station, started the the rundown.
00:52:13
Speaker
do you start to feel better at this point? Yeah, yeah. Like I said, I think because my nutrition had gone so well, I actually wasn't flat for energy. i was just I just felt flat climbing. um And we you drop altitude, like, very quickly.
00:52:27
Speaker
And so there's lots of sections. Like, that the the descent is for basically ah fifteen k It's like it's like running down It's actually a lot like running down Bungalow Spur for any of those who know Bungalow Spur.
00:52:44
Speaker
There's like some really rooty sections that are like quite technical and rocky, but it's very runnable and you can run very fast. And whilst like I caught quite a few people very quickly um and and I knew straight away, I was like, I'm running better than a lot of these guys.
00:52:59
Speaker
I ended up descending with Pablo for quite a lot because he was moving really well in the technical stuff. So he'd go in front and I would just, you know, if I got dropped by 20 meters, I'd just, then as soon as it came to something runnable, I'd catch back up to him and I'd come past and then he'd follow me on the runnable section. And so we swapped over like quite a few times.
00:53:19
Speaker
Um, and that was really good. Like I felt really encouraged again by the fact that like I'm running with Pablo who I know is, is strong. Um, And yeah there was a guy that was maybe maybe a minute ahead of us, like most of that descent.
00:53:33
Speaker
And I just told myself, i was like, I just wanted to ah want to fight and like fight to catch someone um because that's something historically haven't been very good at late in races is like often in Australia or if I'm by myself, if there's no one ahead of me, like I'm just running. But if there's someone ahead of – there was someone ahead of me. And so I just told myself like I've got to catch this person. Yeah.
00:53:56
Speaker
Eventually, I like dropped Pablo for a bit. and um just yeah like I felt like I was running really, really well. but You descend for like an hour and a half. It's such a long time to be running downhill like that. and You lost 2,400 meters in that time.
00:54:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And you'd lose you lose 1,000 metres in the last 3K basically. like So you go you go down this that really nice runnable descent. You can run really fast. There are some technical sections.
00:54:25
Speaker
But then your legs are tired, right? And then you have to go down this like – ridiculous, not even cobbled climb. Like it's just rocks. It's so steep. It's so steep.
00:54:36
Speaker
Yeah. And it's, so it's so long. Like it's so steep for so long. It's hard running. And by then I'd caught that guy that I was talking about. He's this German bloke. He was actually really nice. Um, I caught him.
00:54:48
Speaker
He was moving really well in the technical sections. Um, and so I just stuck with him through there. um Then you you get to the bottom, so done the descent. You're at sea level. You're at the sea.
00:55:02
Speaker
but Then you have to run like on this like little false flat road and then up this like 2K 20% basically climb up to the finish town where it's like this race would be really nice to finish here at the sea. It would be lovely. I've got to run up hill. Yeah.
00:55:23
Speaker
ah So i just came out of there and I was a bit of a mess, um but I was still running okay. And then that's when Pablo, who I dropped on the descent, caught me on the climb oh and all bets were off there.
00:55:39
Speaker
he he was actually, he was amazing. um He's so experienced and you he's done, lo he's he's won TDS. like Yeah, he's world class. He knows how to do these races. So i was i was a mess. Like I was climbing so bad and everything was just hurting. like Like it's an ultra, you know, like stuff just hurts.
00:55:59
Speaker
And there was a guy who was maybe a minute behind us less. Like an honest climb, like he's not very far back. and And Pablo basically didn't let me get dropped. Like he was moving really strong and I was just behind him.
00:56:12
Speaker
um And any time I fell off the pace, like I would go, I can't hang on anymore. i can't hang on. He would just yell at me. He was like, he's like, um you will not get dropped. You will not get dropped. Come with me.
00:56:23
Speaker
If you get dropped, he will catch you. um And he probably did that four or five times up that, you know, 10 minute climb, like I was really feeling sorry for myself, but he just didn't let me get dropped. And, and I, that was, that was amazing. And I think that also just taught me that like, doesn't matter how shit you feel, you can, you can still just rip like yeah it's there. And then you come and then we've kind of got to run a false flat uphill for 2k into town.
00:56:51
Speaker
Um, And that was really special because it was so hard. Like we were still running solid we running from this guy who was behind us. But, you know, was running with him. like Like this is a new teammate. This is a guy who I'd met this week and spent heaps of time with. And it felt – it was such a special feeling. Also, like he's a celebrity on that arm. The Spanish athletes – are celebrities.
00:57:12
Speaker
they would have been There would have been, you know, 200 people call his name out in that last two Ks at least. Like, they're yelling for Pablo and so I was like, it was so amazing. the whole Because the whole town comes, the whole island basically comes out supports the race. yeah um And whilst, you know, I've always said,
00:57:32
Speaker
you know I'm not a believer in the hand-holding coming over the line. yeah It was the eighth. If it was for a win, it might have been a different story. um But it it was it was such an amazing feeling coming over with yeah with a new teammate, a new friend.
00:57:48
Speaker
um yeah It was just was so special to kind of and finally be finished. you know like i was I was over the moon. Yeah, when I saw the photo of you guys at the finish, i'm i agree with you i'm not a I don't like hand-holding, especially if it's for first.
00:58:04
Speaker
yeah we're here We're here to race. And I understand that you go through a lot in ah in a long race, but you're still here to race. But for eighth, it is different. And just the emotion on both of your faces, it was a very like beautiful moment to see and hearing you talk about it.
00:58:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. i um I'd been giving Dimitri a lot of shit that week about hand-holding with Tom um and then I did the same thing. So, anyway. I guess until you're in that situation as well, you never quite know how you're going to… Yeah, because I tell you like I had no energy to out-sprint that dude and I know he had no energy to out-sprint me.
00:58:36
Speaker
So, even if we had it sprinted, it would have just ended up in two guys falling over the line probably next to each other. Yeah, right. I think it's interesting what you said before though, that it's showing you that there's essentially there's always more, even when you think that you're you're tapped out. And that's that's something that I've always had to remind myself and people I coach that when you think you're done, you are very unlikely to actually be done.
00:59:00
Speaker
Reflecting now on that whole experience, like you said, you've essentially run the duration of a 100K. You've lived a life in a day there by the sounds of it. how How are you feeling about that performance?
00:59:11
Speaker
Um, i I'm really proud of a lot of things in that race. I'm really proud of how, like how I was able to stay strong and to run really strong towards the end. I'm really proud of how my nutrition went.
00:59:29
Speaker
I'm really proud of my mentality. I'm really proud of, um, yeah, a lot of things, you know, I wanted to run the 720. Like I wanted to run a bit faster.
00:59:41
Speaker
i think on a different day, i could i could have done that. yeah um You know, maybe even on, maybe not on the same day with the weather, but I was fit enough to run a fair bit faster. I could have descended 10 minutes faster and I should have run a lot faster up top.
00:59:55
Speaker
And so that's a little bit disappointing um because i know, like I know i'm I think I'm i'm better than that. I think I'm better than the result I had, but that's cool. Like that's what I did on the day.
01:00:08
Speaker
yeah i managed to do it and it we wasn't a terrible result. Like I still ran okay. still came top 10. um So i'm I'm really happy with it I've learned a lot from it.
01:00:21
Speaker
It's really made me feel like, such a novice, um like, you know, you look around and and all the people that, you know, are running 100Ks all the time and not even not even people that are racing them, like, just the people that are getting out and doing UTA and like, 15 or 16 hours, like,
01:00:42
Speaker
I just, I really tip my hat to them and I really have so much to learn off so many of these people, whether they're racing for the win or just racing to finish. um And that's really exciting.
01:00:55
Speaker
um That, yeah, there's just so many things to learn and to nail. um i know it's going to take me a long time to do that and I'm like really excited about it.
01:01:08
Speaker
What's kind of the one thing that you're going to start working on and implementing first coming out of that race? I think I need to do more. i think I need to do a little bit more running. Um, I think.
01:01:21
Speaker
Actually, I don't know. i just, I think I'm pretty happy with the course that I'm on, to be honest, James. Like there are a lot of things I need to start to get better at and that's cool. Like I can just do that. Like I can, I can learn to get better at climbing.
01:01:34
Speaker
I can learn to um be mentally stronger. I just need to do the work. And I'm in a position where like I have the space to do the work. Like I have ah budget behind me. I have,
01:01:48
Speaker
really like a really good team of people at home i have people to lean on i have people to learn off um yeah and ah it's gonna it's gonna take a while like I mean you maybe I'll never figure it out but I'm excited to to see what it is you know You've mentioned on other podcasts that you take quite like an analytical approach in the sense of you're seeing how much weight that you can save. You're reading into the course to look at how things are training and and like fine tuning on your nutrition and the heat strategies.
01:02:17
Speaker
Is there anything else in that respect that you feel like the top of the sport is doing that you're not? um No, it's funny. Like, you know, when Mike, when Mike here in Australia, sometimes are like, why, like why are we doing this? Why am I trying to cut four grams? Like what this jacket's four grams lighter. Why I wearing that? Who cares?
01:02:35
Speaker
But it's just, it's just what people are doing, you know? Um, maybe as I spend more time in it, I'll learn a lot more about it. Um, but I've only really had one race.
01:02:46
Speaker
yeah Um, Yeah, I plan to lean on kind of the Terex team and everyone else around me as much as I can to try and figure out what else I need to be doing. But I think in terms of that, like, I think I'm doing that pretty well. Obviously, it can get better. Yeah. But, know, I'm happy that I'm doing that.
01:03:03
Speaker
And you said as well in the lead up to Age Pacifics that you were working quite closely with Precision. on working out a heat strategy and fine tuning your nutrition, the relationship you've with precision now has been going on for a while. How that evolved how you were planning towards this race? like you had also said that you were sort of at about 105 now you're at 120. Yeah. Is anything that's kind changed there?
01:03:25
Speaker
yeah is anything else' kind of changed there Yeah, so i I just decided one day after Korea, I was like, I'm going to do 120 grams an hour for all my races now.
01:03:37
Speaker
I just decided. And then like like in in training, i just did it. like it's you know It feels shit and it went wrong in a couple of training sessions, but it's fine.
01:03:48
Speaker
All long runs, i would do it. I would just... do 120, you know, all my workouts, I'm i'm fueling really big. um And it was fun. I had no stress. I probably actually had too much caffeine. I had 1,100 milligrams of caffeine, which is about 22 shots of espresso over seven hours, which is actually makes me feel sick. And like my fingers were tingling by the end of the race. so I might not go that heavy yeah ever again because that was scary.
01:04:17
Speaker
um But... I think while you can do the nutrition, you might as well. There's obviously going to be a point of diminishing returns, but I haven't found that point. Um, and some, I find, you know, not to, not to sponsor plug, but I really liked the precision stuff.
01:04:35
Speaker
I find it so easy. Um, I put 180 grams of carbs in this little 250 mil soft flask and that's an hour and a half's worth of carbs. And that's all I have to worry about for an hour and a half is like, finish this.
01:04:48
Speaker
And then that's done. And then I just grab another one and then we'll start working on that one. um and so So that works really well for me and it's, yeah, I'll continue to do that.
01:04:59
Speaker
The simplicity of these bigger packets, whether it's the precision 90 gram, even seeing brands coming out with 40 gram gels rather than 30 grams, it definitely makes it easier to hit those targets. Something you mentioned there about fueling or your workouts to quite a high degree. I'd like you to expand a bit on that because I think this is something that people maybe miss still is that we've got used to fueling our long runs, but that's the only time that you're at this number. Whereas you're doing, especially someone trying to be at your level or even a couple steps below.
01:05:29
Speaker
doing 80 to 90 minute total duration workouts and potentially taking a caffeine gel before you start, maybe. How do do you approach workouts like that?
01:05:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i take it as another opportunity to... I mean, obviously, fueling the workouts is good, but if you look at it as another opportunity to just practice fueling, it's even better because in these races, obviously, the intensity is higher. You're not long running at the intensity that you race, and where the issues in the gut and with nutrition come is during intensity.
01:06:04
Speaker
So um i just take – and look, i'm i'm very I'm very blessed, and I recognize how – like he you know, it might be a little bit out of touch with the amount of nutrition that i have access to.
01:06:20
Speaker
um But like, say for example, the workout I did today, I did 10K tempo and then into some 800s. yeah I had a gel at the start of the warmup.
01:06:31
Speaker
I had a gel at the end of the warmup before the session. I had a gel in the tempo. ah had a gel soon as we'll finish that. And then i had a gel straight after.
01:06:42
Speaker
So like, Just taking the opportunity to obviously one, fueling them is going to make you feel better before, during, and after. um But two, if you can take a gel when running a threshold, you're going to be able to take a gel when you're racing at a 50K race.
01:07:00
Speaker
yeah So um practicing that is something that i I think is really important and it's so beneficial. Like I now have – I used to find it really hard, but I now find no issues – in a 30-minute tempo, taking two caffeine gels. Like, it's fine. It's just, it's no it's no issue. And I think that really goes a long way.
01:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. And obviously, there's an allowance there with the fact that you are sponsored. So, financially, that's a bit different. But... It is interesting. I just, the quick calculations, it sounds like assuming that the 30 gram gels, that's 150 grams throughout that start to finish the session. It's, it shows what you do need to be doing to train. Like you said, it just makes all the difference for, for the race day.
01:07:43
Speaker
Um, yeah your You're currently studying physio, sort of started off with sports science. What you've learned in your studies, is that implement are you implementing that into your training at all?
01:07:55
Speaker
Somewhat. I think mostly what uni has taught me is is just appreciation for the research. like I've become a little bit of a nerd, especially in terms of, you try or any specific research or research into other sports.
01:08:11
Speaker
um And just understanding that, understanding where the research is moving. Like it's not a stagnant thing. If you read a paper, that's not the the final story on that. You know, you, you then read that, then you look at the team that that did that work. What are they working on now? Because that's where the research is going.
01:08:29
Speaker
I also find sometimes like you have to look around to find out where things are happening. They might not necessarily be happening in the research because the research hasn't gotten to it yet.
01:08:40
Speaker
yeah They're often happening in sports like cycling and triathlon. And these are two sports that I'm really big fans of. So like you can see a trend, whether it's a training trend or a nutrition trend, start to happen in these other sports.
01:08:53
Speaker
um Odds are everyone will be doing it in trail in a few years. Like people have been doing it. big nutrition numbers in triathlon for probably four to five years, if not longer.
01:09:05
Speaker
In cycling, it's about the same. You know, it's just coming to trial running now. Everyone's like, oh my God, 120 grams of carbs. Triathletes are doing 180 grams of carbs an hour on the bike for like five hours, six hours.
01:09:16
Speaker
Cyclists are doing 150 grams of carbs six hours every day during a grand tour. So like... This is old news and you're kind of like looking to these sports, that's where you really see the thing, that the big trends in whether it's heat training big one. you know Cyclists have been doing that for a long time and now it's in in trial running. So kind of just um'm I'm a fan of endurance sports and I'm an endurance sport nerd. So i spend a lot of time kind of like looking around and seeing what I could be doing to kind of make myself better.
01:09:50
Speaker
Is there anything that you're seeing at the moment that you think trail hasn't caught onto to yet? um I think, well, bicarb's obviously coming yeah in quite quickly. Something I'm actually really interested in is I've heard word that a lot of cyclists are starting to take bicarb during events, low dosage,
01:10:13
Speaker
Very curious about that. Like just slowly low dosing bike hub during this thing of a bike race. Not quite sure about the mechanism of that. Curious about it.
01:10:24
Speaker
um But no, nothing else that's sticking out right at the moment. ah That's interesting because we we saw UTMB three, or four years ago, Kilian taking mid race and yeah doesn't seem to be that much talk david roach is obviously one of the preeminent in this space on it or but he's not talking about it as far as know taking it during i did see think it was caitlin fielder at uta she was experimenting with it um taking it mid-race don't know how that what that went for her for her but yeah that's cool i like it do you you tried it
01:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I'm big fan. I think a couple reasons. One, um apparently the sodium dumping is really beneficial, obviously. yeah um i find, say, for example, a race like um like I did it for Buffalo,
01:11:20
Speaker
The first 40 minutes of these races now are full gas, like basically full gas. And if you can buffer your lactate a little bit there, you might have a little bit towards the end where you're not quite as fatigued, hasn't quite built up as much.
01:11:35
Speaker
um But I find i find it, I actually find it amazing. Like if I take it for a long run, without a doubt, I feel amazing. And it might be placebo, like who knows. But oh I'm a really big fan of it actually.
01:11:49
Speaker
Do you use the Morton system? um I haven't been able to get it in Australia. Yeah. um So no, I use this brand called By Carb. By Carb, yeah. um It's a British brand.
01:12:01
Speaker
i like you it's You can't really get it sent to Australia, but you can. um And that one is so much cheaper. The Morton is like $30 a serve or something. It's ridiculous.
01:12:12
Speaker
yeah But this one, is I think, works out at $12 a serving, that's pretty good. Interesting that you use it for – for Buffalo because like as we saw being there it ended up very very close with you and and James Barnett for that that's that final bit did compared to when you've you've done those 20k races in the past did you feel any difference in the fatigue level as you went through kind of what you were able to buffer I don't know To be honest, I think think if I hadn't have taken it, I wouldn't have been able to climb with James on that first climb. He was flying.
01:12:44
Speaker
um And so who knows? who knows like you look There could be a million things that happened. ah Who knows? I'm a big fan of it. I will continue to use it.
01:12:55
Speaker
um yeah I think it's definitely worth people experimenting um because it's something you definitely have to experiment with. Don't get it and just do it for a race. Do not do that. like You feel weird in a couple of practice runs.
01:13:09
Speaker
You will shit yourself, um but you learn to figure it out. Okay. so you you you did have some some gut distress from it. Yeah, 100%. I took it once before, id weigh before like maybe half an hour before I'd had breakfast. The issue with it is is you have to have it two hours before a run.
01:13:26
Speaker
yeah So like sometimes that's annoying if you're – I do most of my sessions at 6, 6.30. So I find it hard to do it for a session or a long run. Yeah, anyway, I took it really early before I'd eaten.
01:13:38
Speaker
That was a miserable day. It didn't go too well. Yeah. um Okay. I'd like to step back a bit. Like, thank you for going through that race in so much detail. It's really cool to listen. It's the same when I spoke to Mikey, just the way you guys do think about the event and of looking back at it and breaking it down. I find it really, really interesting to go through.
01:13:58
Speaker
you have said and previously on the podcast that you started off in cycling i actually found it interesting that you just mentioned that your running mechanics is what you think is your kind of strong point because you haven't been running for that long at least not at this like in the trails competitively i'm going to ask about okay when you first started running but i didn't expect that to be your answer because i would thought there's probably still a lot of development that you've got to go there but Your cycling, how old and for how long were you doing that for and kind of what level did you get to?
01:14:29
Speaker
um I cycled, you know, my dad raced bikes when I grew up and so to me like that's what, that was the cool thing to do. Like dad would come home on a sad day and he'd done the kids in sad day world in Wagga which is like, you know, they they ride pretty fast for an hour and then there's a sprint and every now and then dad would win and to me that was like, that was crazy that he'd won the sad day morning kids in world championships.
01:14:54
Speaker
um he'd ridden i thought that was crazy so i always wanted to go to cycling and dad tells a story about um to race on the track in walker you had to be five and it was on a wednesday night and my fifth birthday was on the wednesday night and all i wanted to do so my fifth birthday date was go to the track and get on the track bikes um i love like i loved it like racing bikes, I think it's like the most raw form of racing. I think, you know, you can talk about, I'm not about like an exercise contest. Like I don't, and that's kind of what trail running is. It's like whoever's defeated wins.
01:15:30
Speaker
But I really like, you know, the thought that goes into these races and, and, and the mentalities and and attacking, like what's tactically the best thing to do. Siking is also a big team sport and I've got to ride an an awesome team for a few years.
01:15:43
Speaker
Um, I loved it. Like I raced, I wasn't, wasn't one of the best around, but, You know, I was able to race at a pretty high level in Australia. and um Sorry, for someone that doesn't doesn't know cycling, what does what does a high level mean? Like, and and being on a team, is that like, are you getting any money for it or is it just you're just part of a team? No, no, no.
01:16:03
Speaker
We got, yeah, we got, if i was on a team and it's pretty low budget team. Like it was a local Australian team. ah um We got, you know, like all our kit for free. Got to go to travel to some races, which was really special, like traveling as a team, doing training camps.
01:16:16
Speaker
um i One of the coolest things as a 16-year-old, like I got to race in the National Road Series, which was like Australia's kind of, at the time, was Australia's biggest kind level of cycling event. And I got flogged, obviously. I was a kid. I was 16. But, like, I loved it. It was great.
01:16:36
Speaker
um Yeah, I always, like, look back. I kind of, this is always a shame I quit cycling. But it's such a great sport and I really did love it. What happened there? what Why did he quit?
01:16:48
Speaker
It's hard when... like Being a kid, being 17, 18, when you're training at a really high level and like you're also a kid, like I would find i ah wasn't going to hang out with my friends or going to any parties because, well, I've got to train tomorrow. like I'm not going to come out on a Saturday night because I've got to train.
01:17:11
Speaker
And i was i started getting to the point where... you know I was able to get some really good results and I was starting to get to a really high level. um But it i just it was just exhausting. And like a lot of other things, like the mentality at the time in cycling around things like eating was really not good and that's something that I definitely struggled with at the time.
01:17:32
Speaker
um And to be honest, it was just exhausting. And really, like I just wanted to go and have a beer with my friends. I was an 18-year-old kid. like That's all I really wanted to do. Yeah. I trained hard for nationals one year and I said, I'm going to have three weeks off the bike. Um, had an okay nationals.
01:17:51
Speaker
And then I, I think I didn't touch my bike for three years. Like, um, yeah, like I, I wish it's it's hard. And I think it's like any, like any kids coming into sports, um it's ah it's a hard point where you want to be performing at a high level and to do that needs a lot of investment but you were also want to be able to do things that other kids can do um and like juggling that line is is is tough. i think I think it's a lot more known about now so i think kids are a lot better at it.
01:18:19
Speaker
um But at the time, I just wasn't bad. And I'm not good at doing two things at once, you know. I'm either riding or I'm having beers. Like I couldn't do both. So, um yeah, looking back, it's definitely sad I gave it up. But, you know, I i did and that's where I chose. And now I'm here.
01:18:38
Speaker
I get to, you know, run around the world. So it's, I guess, kind of all worked out pretty well. And a couple of years ago we spoke and you told me that the period after riding before running, said you kind of, you became more of a typical late teens, early twenties drinking, you put on a bit weight as much as you're happy to kind of talk about that time. Like what, what was kind of going on then that then brought you back into running?
01:19:06
Speaker
Yeah. Well, like, Yeah, that I actually really like enjoyed a lot of that period of my life. Like in that time I was in a band and I i got to travel around playing music, which is still one of the coolest things I've ah've got to do.
01:19:21
Speaker
um i was kind of just working, living in Canberra. I had a lot of really cool friends, like, yeah, playing a lot of music. I really enjoyed it. But I found, like, I started to – I really knew I missed, like, being outdoors because that's something I grew up with and and my whole family is – my whole family is very fit and and everyone – it's It's normal on a Saturday morning that everyone's out.
01:19:49
Speaker
My sister's training for footy. My dad's running. My mum's swimming. My other sister's got gone to the gym. like That's just what we do. and And I kind of just felt a bit a part of that. like I just wasn't doing that. And I i knew that that wasn't me.
01:20:02
Speaker
like um so one I just decided I'd start running. i was just like, I'll go for a run. And I did. And it was like I would i would walk down to to this like track, like footpath from my house and there was a tree that was probably less than a kilometer away and i'd say all right i'm gonna run to that tree i'm gonna run the whole way and i'd like start running and i wouldn't make it like i i'd run for two minutes and i couldn't run i was i was big guy i was 100 kilos at that point um and i wouldn't get to the tree and up there i'd be exhausted hands on knees and i'd turn around it and i'd go all right i'm gonna run back to that spot that i ran from and i just
01:20:41
Speaker
run and it was like maybe six seven hundred meters like it was it was shocking it's horrible but um eventually like i would just go i'm gonna run further and further and faster and then um it just kept going and then once i started like you know i dropped a lot of weight very quickly started running a lot this was during covid um like So we're talking 2020 is when you started this. Yeah.
01:21:07
Speaker
so there's not much, it wasn't much to do. ah just started running and started obviously really liked running hard. um And I was just like decided one day on I want to be good at running. like Yeah. um And I was pretty lucky I think because it was COVID like,
01:21:26
Speaker
I grew up, I grew up, I knew how to train obviously. Like I've, I've seen what it's like to train at a high level. I knew what, what you have to do. And I just would do that. And then eventually like it came time to do my first ever race, which was a self time race.
01:21:41
Speaker
Um, and I came second. It was like a local race in Canberra. i went out, did this like 20 K trial race to self time to put my time in and I come second. I was like, Oh, Oh, this isn't too bad. i don't mind this. and Did like, you know, my first race in Canberra when the first races came back and just started to love it and got to go to so many cool places.
01:22:00
Speaker
Eventually won my first race. It was up at Cozzy. was like the trial run Australia one up there and I was like, this winning thing great. I'm going to do more of this.
01:22:11
Speaker
So then, yeah, just kind of got really into it. Your band was called Parklands. Are you guys disbanded now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not playing anymore, which is really sad because, it's such a, like, playing music with, like, your four best friends is is is the most special thing you can do. It's crazy. When, you know, whether we'd be playing to 20 people and one person singing lyrics or, like, you know, like our biggest gig we maybe played to just under 800 or 900 people or something supporting Hands Like Houses. Yeah.
01:22:45
Speaker
um So special, so cool. um It is sad we're not playing anymore. It came to a point where my running started going quite well. um And when you play a show you know in Sydney one night and Wollongong the next night and you play at 12 o'clock and then you have to do a three-hour long run the next day, that becomes pretty tough pretty quickly.
01:23:07
Speaker
um So, yeah, just kind of – I had to kind of choose and I chose running. And um we're not we're not playing anymore, unfortunately, which is pretty sad. But I've still got like all those – I've got heaps of photos and ah music's on still on Spotify and stuff so I can go listen to that. And, yeah, was really good.
01:23:26
Speaker
You were the bass player. Do you still play? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, still play. I actually, when I came to Boulder within the first few days, like I'm here for five weeks. I don't have that much on. I'm just running.
01:23:36
Speaker
I went and found a guitar on Facebook Marketplace. Like I always have to have a guitar. So I went and bought this like shitty $50 guitar that I've had while I'm here. So I'm just kind of running, playing my guitar and yeah, always still.
01:23:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's cool. I think that it's easy to think that people are a bit one dimensional at the top of the sport and that because you just, I'm assuming to get to the level you have to get, like you said, you have to be all in, but there's always so much more to people than than that. I think it's really, it's really cool. And I listened to the music and it was really good.
01:24:06
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. really enjoyed it. um Okay, cool. And you just said you're in Boulder now, there Broken Arrow. you Your five-year plan was to get on the Adidas team.
01:24:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm. What's the next step? Well, really like this year and next year, my plan is to just learn as much as I can, um do a combination of like, like we're very lucky we get to choose what races we want to do. We can do any race we want, but there's a calendar of,
01:24:40
Speaker
12 or 13 really amazing races and they're the team races and they're what they prefer to do. My goal over the next few years is to pick one or two really competitive races and one or two races where I can i can be competitive myself and I can try and win and you know i may hopefully grab a little bonus. The bonuses are pretty sweet, another thing being an international team.
01:25:02
Speaker
um So just learn as much as I can and then hopefully 2027 can get a good result and, you know, that that would be that's it that's the year I finish uni at the end of 2027.
01:25:16
Speaker
um I will yeah hopefully be in a spot to get another really – hopefully you get a great contract um and see what happens. Or if not, if if I get the same contract I'm on and I can work in Australia and then come and race, do some races, or whether or not that contract is good enough to kind of try and go all in for a few years, who knows. Yeah.
01:25:38
Speaker
um I've got a lot of the time. I'm 25, which like whilst in a lot of other sports is washed up if you know I haven't made it by 25. But in this sport, I've still got a lot to learn and a lot to do, a lot of time, um and just soak up all that I can. like I've got this amazing opportunity right now.
01:25:59
Speaker
um that basically I get to get paid a little bit of money to travel the world and and race and meet some incredible people. So I'm just going to make the most of it and see where it takes me.
01:26:12
Speaker
I realize that you'll probably have to have signed an NDA for your contract, but it sounds like you're not at a position where you're where you don't have to find a job as well. Is that correct?
01:26:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's not. like let's say Let's just say it's a ah a really good uni job. Okay. Yeah. yeah Yeah. Okay, cool. That makes sense. so And after Broken Arrow, kind of talking more short term, you're going to be going back to OCC?
01:26:39
Speaker
That's right? No. No? Oh, okay. so I'm coming home. I want to have a little bit of a rest. I'm actually, after Broken Arrow, um i'm i'm I am going to Europe. Going to do a bit of traveling with my girlfriend.
01:26:50
Speaker
um And then I've got some testing at the Adidas headquarters over in Germany. um Then I come back to Australia. have a little bit of a rest and then I want to, my next big major goal is Tawira 100k next year. Okay.
01:27:08
Speaker
And then in the lead up for that, I'll do Hounslow short um and go over to Cape Town for the 50k there. Yeah. um But basically like once I come back from Europe and I'm ready to get back into it,
01:27:22
Speaker
I really want to have ah really good Porsche at Tarawira. I think it's a race that can suit me. I've been there twice already. So that's kind of where I will start to look to. Dan Jones better watch out.
01:27:34
Speaker
um I don't think anyone in the world beats Dan Jones in February. Yeah, definitely not on that course. the I'm going to come back to your season a little bit i just before I forget.
01:27:45
Speaker
What's the drive to go longer? um I don't know. It's just, i mean, that's ultra running, right? Like, we always want to race further.
01:27:56
Speaker
And, oh but like like I get it. And I've listened to Boulder boys podcast, for example, and you hear them talking about like, if you wanted to get a contract, you had to do a hundred milers back in yeah mid teens.
01:28:09
Speaker
But now seemingly you don't. And like you said, you're not being pressured to do any particular race. What is it that ah specifically specifically like attracts you to ultras rather than staying in that sub ultra to 50 K distance?
01:28:21
Speaker
I think right now it's the it's the unknown. Like I don't know what lays there. i'm I'm pretty confident that on any given course, if it's a 50K race and it's a running it's a running race, I ah could probably tell you where my level is. I could probably tell you what I could do.
01:28:37
Speaker
i could tell you how I would train for it. And obviously I have a lot of steps to move. Like I have a lot of growing to do. I need to get a lot faster and a lot better at a lot of things. But I've always wanted to race longer.
01:28:50
Speaker
um Blake, you know, in in his infinite wisdom has has held me back. He didn't let me race 50Ks for like three years basically. And then I told him I wanted to race 100Ks and he says, just kept saying no and no and um But it's what I've always wanted to do.
01:29:07
Speaker
the The beauty of those races, it's not just who's the fittest, it's who can nail the most things. yeah um they just It just really excites me. And I'm not, you know, my plan isn't to just do 100K races and it's not just do longer races. I want to be able to do a lot of other things, but I ah want to be able to do a hundred k races.
01:29:27
Speaker
That's where I see, I think, like a runnable 100K like Tarouille, I think that's where I see myself. kind of that's where I think my skills will lie um and yeah it just really interests me and I want to be able to jump into these races like you know Black Canyons this year was look super competitive looked like a great race I want to be able to jump into that race and then jump into a 50k or whatever it is you've also mentioned there a couple of golden ticket races let's say i think tower has it again for next next year but just let's just say they they do you get top two you get the golden ticket to western states are you taking it
01:30:07
Speaker
Well, I don't think ah don't think I could answer that. I haven't ah don't think I could answer that. Okay. um ah yeah I wouldn't be in a place to answer that.
01:30:19
Speaker
Fair enough. Okay, and coming back, so the reason why I mentioned OCC was that you didn't apply for Worlds and my assumption was that that was because you were doing a UTMB major final event.
01:30:31
Speaker
Why then didn't you apply for the team? um Look, that race looks amazing. And besides, I mean, we had the Australian team around at Asia-Pacific, which was amazing.
01:30:46
Speaker
And I've heard so many great things about the world's team, like having such a different range of athletes from Australia and all over the world. It looks so special. And it's something that I really want to nail one time in my career.
01:30:58
Speaker
um Like, right now, it's just not the time it's just not time and place. I think one thing for us Australian athletes, like, we basically have to pay our way over there, and and that's totally understandable. Like, trail running's not a very big sport.
01:31:12
Speaker
um It's very expensive to go and race. But to be honest, like, I'm now very lucky in a situation where... pretty much any race I want to do, I don't have to pay a cent for.
01:31:26
Speaker
um And so, like, I could go do any race or I could do worlds where I have to lay out, you know, it's 10 grand for a couple of weeks at the end of the day. Like, you've got flights, you've got accommodation, is at altitude, you want to go there to train.
01:31:41
Speaker
um It's really expensive. And like like I said before, like, I'm at uni, like, i I'm not just... I don't have 10 grand spare to go and lay out to go do one of these races where otherwise I could go to a race that is supported and there's an opportunity for a really good bonus that I could try and fight for. So, um I'm sad, like...
01:32:03
Speaker
I've heard, ah know Australia will do really well. I know we have a really good team. um It is a shame. i wish I was there with the team and like I would love to be able to show off what Australia can do and and try and fight for that.
01:32:17
Speaker
But now it's just, it just wasn't the time this year, unfortunately. I respect that and thank you for being being honest there. and um idiot you're You're right. it It is a shame, even down to the fact that that compared to Asia-Pacific Champs where your kit was included, you have like they're there having to pay for the kit, which is not not cheap, and and the team levy. and It is the reality of being a minor sport, but it's just it is a shame that the the financial aspect is what's deterring people from from doing it and representing Australia, which, as you've experienced, um I can only imagine is a very incredible experience.
01:32:51
Speaker
yeah for sure sure and the world is amazing like it's continuing to evolve it's getting bigger every year so there when although i have heard that course is so hard daniel sands lives there and he says like you start with the 1600 meter client which is no joke yeah and after what you've you've told me on this this call it sounds like that course potentially would be yeah not your wheelhouse obviously you just trained for it but yeah exactly All right, Charlie, that's been ah incredible. It's been great to get to know you bit more and to kind of hear about your journey in the sport. I think you you specifically at the moment, as we've already spoken about, Lucy's been on an international team with Salomon for a while, but you're kind of the, you're the emerging international level athlete that we've got and it's,
01:33:34
Speaker
be really It's really exciting just to watch you learn and progress and um hopefully share share some of those learnings with your fellow Australians trying to trying to trying to make that transition. But is there anything that we haven't had a chance to chat about yet that you would like to share or talk about?
01:33:51
Speaker
Not particular. I think though you say I'm – I wouldn't say I'm the emerging person. I'd just say I'm like in a position where I'm ah um'm a product of everything that Australia is doing at the moment and we have like a really good contingent and of runners who are – starting to fight like races in Australia are not easy to win anymore.
01:34:11
Speaker
Well, not that they ever were, but like, i mean, you saw Buffalo, like I had to die to beat James. Like everyone is getting so good. um We have incredible men. We have incredible women. We have incredible people over long. We have incredible people over short.
01:34:24
Speaker
So I think like, I'm just lucky that like I'm I'm a product of what Australia trail running has come to. And I think, um you know, in two years, let's look around and let's see how many,
01:34:37
Speaker
ah Australians are on um international teams and are getting international results and I guarantee you it's going to be a lot more than there is now. um So yeah, I think we're in a really good space and Peak Pursuits is doing an amazing job in pushing that and and helping us because you know like doing a podcast like this is something you have to learn to do really if you want to be doing these races. So all these young kids that are getting their results, like you know you you want to fight to get on the podcast because then you get to talk about your running. and yeah So I think it's really special and like you guys are definitely a big help to us and
01:35:12
Speaker
Yeah, we're all, everyone's really fighting to kind of do what we can do, you know? Yeah, we appreciate that. And and I'm glad um gladd you corrected me there because you're you're right. The whole, we're seeing the depth especially of Australian trail running really evolve and and grow. And you are the person that at the moment has has made that that step, but you are just the front of a pack that's coming through. And hopefully we do see that that growth. Yeah.
01:35:39
Speaker
In terms of Australian running, you might may have already answered this, but just to leave us with, is there anything that's particularly exciting you for the future? Well, little Paddy Clark, man, who I couldn't – it took me an hour to catch him at Buffalo. That was crazy. I still close my eyes and – have nightmares about that.
01:35:58
Speaker
He was flying so well. He's like 16 or something. Like he's unbelievable. Um, it is really exciting. And now the GPT is a um, a world trail series major. Like that's just going to be amazing for the sport in Australia. And the amount of people overseas that we're talking about, like results in Australia do matter. Like Robert, the head of Adidas was talking about results at UTA. So like,
01:36:25
Speaker
um keep fighting for these things because brands like people do care about tarawira they do care about buffalo they do care about uta um we just need to keep doing what we're doing and it it'll just keep growing beautiful thank you cool all right charlie thank you so much for coming on it's been great to actually get a chance to go long form with you i'm sure will definitely not be the last time that we uh we hear from you but for now thank you so much enjoy your time boulder and good luck at broken arrow
01:36:56
Speaker
Yeah, cool. Thanks, James. Cheers. It's been good to talk to you I said at the start that Charlie was going to give us a lot of really deep, valuable insights into his world and what it is like at the sponsored athlete point of the sport.
01:37:10
Speaker
And Charlie definitely did not disappoint. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I learned so much. and not just about Charlie, but also about the sport in general. And I really hope that there's some valuable insights, whether it applies to you or you just pique your curiosity about what it is like to be sponsored in Australia and Charlie's experience at Transylvania as well in what was a very challenging, turbulent race for him to take on one of his first key international experiences after OCC in 2023.
01:37:40
Speaker
If you've enjoyed the podcast with Charlie, please consider sharing it around. Let somebody else that you run with know about Charlie's story. And please do give us five-star review wherever you listen to your podcast. It means a lot. It helps more people find the show. And it just tells us that you are enjoying it.
01:37:54
Speaker
Thanks so much for listening. And we will catch you on the next one.