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Epictetus on Insults, Fortitude, and Doing Your Best (Episode 153)
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In this episode, Michael and Caleb break down Handbook 42, where Epictetus lays out Socratic Intellectualism and explains why people's harsh words say more about them than you
This episode will challenge your assumptions about conflict and equip you with practical Stoic tools for navigating a world of criticism and misunderstanding.
(00:52) Epictetus's Handbook 42
(05:48) Empathy
(09:26) People's Words Say More About Them
(14:41) It Seemed So To Him
(18:48) This Applies To Everything
(23:36) Stoic Determinism
(26:22) Difficulty With Socratic Intellectualism
(33:40) Handbook 42
***
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Transcript
Stoic agency in self-improvement
00:00:00
Speaker
I think the the Stoic response is to say, well, your your agency is in changing your character over time. Your agency is in in directing yourself in the path of self-improvement. But in any situation, you're only ever as good as you are. Welcome to Stoic Conversations. My name is Caleb Montiveros. And I'm Michael Trombley. And today we're going to be going through a select passage from the handbook. Do you want to kick this off, Michael?
00:00:27
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to be talking about Handbook 42. The Handbook is a short book by Epictetus, kind of like his greatest hits. It was meant to be carried around in your pocket or carried on in your body, something you could turn to to remember throughout the day. Lots of great passages from the Handbook and we'll focus on this one today. And so without any delay, I'll just kick things off and we'll we'll dive into it. Awesome. so This is Epictetus's Handbook Part 42. Epictetus says, when someone acts badly towards you or speaks badly of you, remember that he is acting or speaking in that way because he thinks that is appropriate for him to do so.
00:01:08
Speaker
Now, it's not possible that he should follow what appears good to you, but rather what appears so to him, so that if he judges wrongly, he is the person harmed, since he too is the person deceived. For if any anyone should suppose a judgment to be false, ah the judgment is not harmed, but he was deceived about it. Setting out then from this principle, you will be gentle with a person who reviles you, for you will say on each occasion, it seemed so to him.
00:01:37
Speaker
And so any any initial thoughts on that, Kiel? Well, I think it's a nice summary of, I'm sure you'll you'll get into this, but it's a nice summary of this view of Socratic intellectualism, which is just, say I suppose,
00:01:56
Speaker
um fancy way of saying that the Stoics took seriously this idea that people do the best by their own lights. This is a another reason why you should be careful ah ah when making judgments about other people, whether they're about that person's character, or of course, um attitudes of anger and response to what others do.
00:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's great. I think it it captures that and it carries this idea that comes with that about being, as you said, non-judgmental, forgiving almost. um I'll try to run through that again and in plain language. So we'll do it one more time.
00:02:38
Speaker
so the The first part, Epictetus says, when when someone acts badly towards you or speaks badly of you, remember that he's acting or speaking in that way because he thinks that's appropriate for him to do so. All he's saying is that when when someone insults you or someone says something mean or does something bad, they think this is the best thing for them. It's like in their worldview, this seems like the right thing to do. And that's a stoic idea, right? As you were saying, Socratic, that's Socratic intellectualism. It's the idea that people only ever do what they think is right.
00:03:08
Speaker
So you know villains, bad guys, nobody's walking around the world thinking they're the bad guy. Nobody's walking around the world thinking they're the villain. they don't Nobody insults somebody and thinks, I'm really mistaken about this insult, but I'm going to say it anyway. and This is a really terrible thing for me to do, and I'm going to do it anyway. People insult you because they think it's right. either either They think you you deserve to be insulted. They're getting revenge.
00:03:31
Speaker
um Maybe they think it's right to pick on the weak people. It's kind of survival of the fittest. And if they're strong, it's it's okay for them to bully you. Whatever it is, people people are always acting in the way they think is best. And so that that's that's that's the first sentence. And so recognize that even when someone's insulting you, rude to you, mean to you, that's still what's going on.
00:03:52
Speaker
And then the second piece, Epictetus says, now it's it's not possible that he should follow what appears good to you. And that's all they're saying is that everybody follows, everybody does what they think is right for themselves. they know even that's the That's why you're disagreeing, is you both think something different is is the good thing to do. Maybe in this case, it's it's a silly example. You think it's right not to get insulted and you think it's right it's right to insult you. But everybody does what they think is best. The whole world, other people, they're not gonna think what you think.
00:04:20
Speaker
Right? Other people aren't all going to agree with you. They're going to do what they think is best. And that's something you need to accept. It's like that Marcus Aurelius line where he says, you know, other people when I wake up in the morning and recognize that other people are going to feel differently about things, but they don't understand good and evil. They don't understand right from wrong. Like I do. People just see the world differently.
00:04:38
Speaker
um And then then he has this other part, you know if he judges wrongly, he is the person harmed since he too is the person deceived. And so that's what Epictetus brings in empathy, and Epictetus is saying, look, um people people insult you because they think that's the right thing to do. But if they're if they're incorrect, then they're actually being harmed because they're confused about the world.
00:05:05
Speaker
They're mistaken about the way things are. And that's bad for them. You don't want to be mistaken. You don't want your friends and family to be mistaken. You don't want your friends and family to go around making fools of themselves, insulting people that don't deserve to be insulted, acting in poorly.
00:05:21
Speaker
So um when someone is confused and they're hurling insults at you, they're in a way they're suffering too. It's like this, this, this, this, this empathetic jump where, you know, if somebody is a bully, I'm not the victim because they're trying to bully me and in a way they're the victim because they have to live with themselves. They have to live with this mistaken conception of the world. They have to live with this bad character. um That's that second part.
00:05:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's an interesting it's an interesting form of empathy because sometimes when you think about that term, you think on taking on the feelings of others, of course, but I think here it means something slightly different, almost like the kind of empathy a parent might feel for a child who's suffering and may perhaps mistaken about the causes of their suffering. It's, I think, taking on what Epicatus says later, a gentler attitude, but isn't, a you know, of course, it isn't just taking on experiencing the world as the other person experiences it or something like that, or trying to get into the other person's head. It's more the understanding that whatever's driving their behavior is, in a sense, the same thing that's driving your behavior, or trying to do one's best, trying to come to correct judgments.
00:06:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's like empathizing with the human condition, ah which we share with the other person, which is that we're all just these these little brains walking around trying
Empathy and forgiveness in Stoicism
00:06:54
Speaker
to make sense of the world. And we never quite get it right. We're often confused. And oh, it's embarrassing when we're confused. And it's and it's painful when we're confused. And so that person, if they're insulting you incorrectly, if you don't deserve to be insulted, you didn't do something that warranted it.
00:07:12
Speaker
They're insulting you incorrectly. um you know theyre they're they're They're hurling some sort of slur or you know this just a prejudice thing, just something that you'd you'd be like, that's just a sad thing for them to be saying. It's like, well, they're a human trying to make sense of the world, and they've gotten the world wrong. right it's It's ended them up in this place where they think the best thing to do is to ah you know call you some sort of slur or insult you for some for something that has no good reason or basis.
00:07:42
Speaker
And that's a kind of a sad thing because we're all trying to be happy. We're all trying to live well. And this person is failing to do that. so This person is failing to do well. And so I think the empathy, as you said, like with the child, the child is like, I think it's, I don't think you meant it patronizingly. And I want to reiterate that I don't think it's patronizing because I think what happens with the child is you say you see them as a whole person.
00:08:04
Speaker
You're like, I know you, I know you how you were raised, I understand where you're coming from, but you're getting this wrong. And so I think you extend that empathy also to other humans, other adults, which is like, you're just another human trying to be happy, trying to live your good life. And you're failing right now, right? You've become, ah whether that's like, you know, racist, sexist, other kinds of prejudice, whatever the insult is, you've kind of got things twisted.
00:08:30
Speaker
And um that's a sad that's a sad thing for you because you're not achieving what you want to achieve. Yeah. the I think the paternalist example can fit sometimes, but perhaps a better analogy for most of these types of situations is the one that Seneca uses in one of his letters where he says, look, I'm i i'm all and i'm i'm in the hospital bed right next to you. I have the same disease. It's just progressed a little bit longer. And that that's probably a little a little bit closer to the situation where we're in with other people. It's not not that large of a gap.
00:09:02
Speaker
Yeah, we're like, we're not perfect, right? Even as, you know, I'm not perfect. I don't think you're a perfect Caleb, no offense. And so when you see someone else making a mistake, when you see someone else making a mistake here, it's the same. As you said, we're in the same hospital bed and you see them suffering and you're like, oh, well, that's got to hurt. I know what that feels like. ah Even if they're not realizing they're sick yet,
00:09:26
Speaker
um So the next party says, if for if anyone should suppose a composite judgment to be false, the composite judgment is not harmed, but he who is deceived about it. um Which is just to say that like if you think some if you think something false, you didn't hurt the thought. you know The harm isn't to the judgment. The harm is to is to the thinker. um The harm is to you. um so something like if i If I think a square is a circle, ah nothing nothing bad has happened to them to the square, just you. You're the one who didn't understand the situation. and so if i you know Caleb, if I call you all kinds of mean things that you don't deserve to be called,
00:10:09
Speaker
Nothing bad has happened to you, Caleb. Only something bad has happened to me because I've been deceived. I've gotten things wrong. And that's the that's the point of that sentence, which is just you know the the person who mistakes the things, the one that gets harmed, not ah not the one that they're mistaken about.
00:10:26
Speaker
And that's a really, it's another way of just stepping back from this idea of insults, conflict. There's still this nice way of reducing those to to judgments, right? it's say you your Because so often we connect, you know, we connect the things people say about us to our self-worth.
00:10:45
Speaker
If they insult me, I'm harmed in some way. If they think poorly about me, I'm harmed in some way. And all we're really doing is stacking up on a scale, a set of judgments, and a set of facts. And if you if you insult me, and that's a judgment, and that's false, nothing bad has happened to me, is the stoic line.
00:11:01
Speaker
just you, something bad has happened to you because you're confused about the world. um And then maybe something bad has happened to you a long time ago and that you've become the kind of person that forms these nasty judgments that um is quick to judge, that is not very ah empathetic or kind. And so that's the real harm in the situation, not the mistaken judgment. that means That means nothing to me, right?
00:11:26
Speaker
Obviously, I mean, the the the the counter by a non-stoic is going to say, well, I don't care what somebody says about me in a vacuum. I care if it harms, if it isolates me from my friend group, right? Like they're spreading rumors or it harms my reputation at work um and so on and so forth. And, you know, there's something there's something to that. the the The hard stoic line again is going to be that this is um that There will be practical implications of what people think about you, but this this is the stoic distinction is to take it back to um really ultimately what matters is is ourselves and we are not harmed. Our status in a friend group might change and that is very sad.
00:12:13
Speaker
But maybe it's sad for the friends who have all been deceived. Maybe it's sad for us too. But the the stoics are going to keep that perspective. I mean, it just depends on how hardcore you want to be in your stoicism. There's going to be practical implications, but often they're they're not as ah extreme as most people take them to be. Yeah, I think that's right. It's it's an interesting argument. i You sort of get the sense that um Arian, who compiled the this handbook, is leaving part of the argument implicit.
00:12:43
Speaker
What I mean by that is, the the the statement is, you know, the composite judgment, if someone so would suppose a composite judgment to be false, the composite judgment, that idea is not harmed, which in a sense is is somewhat obvious, I suppose. Ideas can't be harmed.
00:13:03
Speaker
But then, you know, I suppose that the the thought that's perhaps as implicit is that we usually think the objects of the judgment ourselves when we're being insulted in this case, that's what's hard. But your example of thinking a square is a triangle is a good one here. I think it's an easy case to see it where, well, look, if that judgment is just mistaken, then in what sense is the object you you know whoever is insulted, harmed. Of course, there are these upshots with indifference, your so your status in a friend group, they may also be deceived. But the then the harm is located in you know the people who are deceived. So I suppose what's what's implicit here is just searching for who's harmed. It's not in the judgment. It's not in the object of the judgment. It's in the people who hold it.
00:13:54
Speaker
Yeah. It's like somebody, what's the bad thing that's happened here? Well, it's the, it's the viciousness. It's the mistaken. It's either the ignorance or the downright viciousness of the the bad character that's produced the ignorance. That's the bad thing that's happened here. I think bad has happened to you in isolation,
Responding gently to insults
00:14:14
Speaker
as you pointed out. Yeah. but Bad things can happen or the bad things, but, um, things you don't prefer could happen to indifference would be the stoic lines.
00:14:22
Speaker
Things that you know you'd prefer there not to be rumors about you. That's that that's true. you can You can do what's in your control to stop those rumors and correct those rumors. But the only bad thing that's happened, the only true harm to any of the people involved is the ignorance or the vicious character producing that ignorance.
00:14:40
Speaker
ye um And then the last line by Epictetus is he says, setting out then from this principle, you'll be gentle with a person who reviles you, for you'll say on each occasion, it seemed so to him. And that's just the idea of um don't be mad at the haters. Don't be mad at the haters, because they're just because haters are going to hate, I guess, is the view. um But if you're if if somebody seems that way, if somebody seems to Somebody wants to hate you, they will, and that's the way that that's the way that it seems to them. And like anybody else in the world, they're going to do what seems right to them. And if they happen to be a confused, mistaken person, they are going to be acting and confused in mistaken ways.
00:15:23
Speaker
And so again, you can intervene, you can set boundaries, you can cut off, somebody you can you can remove yourself from situations where someone's being toxic to you, bullying you, things like this, stand up for yourself, do all these things. But while you're standing up for yourself, also forgive this person or don't hate this person because you know they're lying in the hospital bed with the sickness, right? And that sickness is making them do nasty things. It's the thing, Epictetus has another line, it'll be paraphrasing, but it's something about, you know We don't judge blind people for being blind when they make mistakes when they're blind we are very Kind we're very forgiving about that because we say well look you're just trying to make your way around the world But you've got this problem where you can't see and that leads you to make mistakes, right?
00:16:09
Speaker
And it's the same thing with, the I think he talks about that in the case in criminals and thieves, which is say, look, you're just trying to do, you're just trying to achieve happiness, but your distorted view of the world is leading you to do it this way. And that's kind of, that's sad. And I'm i'm not going to be mad at you. I'll try to help you if I can. I'll protect myself from you if that's necessary, but I'm not going to be mad at you. And I think that's another thing that goes a long way to this idea of why the Stoics don't believe in anger.
00:16:36
Speaker
Even against those who are insulting you even against those who were trying to harm you because ultimately that person doesn't deserve punishment from you Because they're already getting punished. They're already sick in the hospital bed as you were saying
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's well put. um I like the Robin Hart translation, where you're reading from. I was also taking a look at the Robin Waterfield translation. And the way he puts this last sentence is is interesting too. He says, or he translates it as, if your inclinations to act are based on these principles, you'll be gentler with anyone who maligns you. Because whenever that happens, you'll tell yourself that's what he thought it best to do.
00:17:19
Speaker
ah Across both, you have the same translation using gentle gentleness, which I think is interesting, ah properly uniform. And then ah I like how he he highlights the inclinations to act, because I think what Waterfield is pointing out here is your you know your impulses.
00:17:41
Speaker
you know, are reminding us that if if you're grounded in these principles, your how you tend to behave will be in a gentler fashion.
00:17:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's almost the the, you know, the way I've described it at this point is very like, don't take it personally. And the way you're describing it, which um I mean, I assume the the word there is Hormé. They don't have the Greek in front of me. But that's talking about not not just how we feel about it, but what we go out and we do in the world.
00:18:11
Speaker
and What do you do when someone insults you? Do you say, hey, screw you too? Do you hit them? you know what do you how do you How do you respond out in the world? And so focusing on that on those inclinations to acts as when you not only should you not be offended,
00:18:28
Speaker
But you should not go out and try to punish. You should not go out and try to hit back. You should be gentle with them because it seemed best to them. um I like that. I like that focus on not just not just yourself, but how you go out and act with the other person. Yeah, yeah. like Another important or did you want to add something?
00:18:48
Speaker
Well, I was going to say it's a separate point. But another point from this is that, you know, Epictetus is using the example of insults and I assume, you know, Roman culture is probably a pretty prideful culture. It's probably a lot of instances or somebody insulted me in public and now we have to fight about it. Now I have to get back ah my honor and things like this. But the the hidden implication of this is that this applies for everything anybody does ever.
00:19:15
Speaker
right That's the full implication of Socratic intellectualism. So it's not just insults. It's not just verbal harassment. It is anything anybody does. It seems best to them. And so when you should be gentle towards the person who insults you, yeah, that's like that's a good thing to remind yourself if you're really sensitive to insults. But anything that promotes in you anger,
00:19:39
Speaker
a lack of gentleness, a desire to get back at people. I think it's important to come back to this perspective from Epictetus, this view of um you know if if this person if this person's right, well then you deserved it. If they're wrong, then they're mistaken. If they're mistaken, then they've been harmed. If they've been harmed, they don't need the kind of anger response, they need a gentle response. They can still be corrected, they can still be helped, but they don't need to be punished further, typically. Not on a moral level, right? Maybe, you know, maybe we have to punish people to make a point, but not on a moral level. Morally, they're already being harmed just by being a bad person. Yeah, yeah, it's a radical view, really.
00:20:26
Speaker
So much of the focus on stoicism is on changing your orientation towards other people, the world. And I i see this focus of stoic teaching as trying to deprogram people from responding to insults, any other kind of wrongdoing with immediate anger or you know immediately losing one's cool And then there is that separate issue. Now that you can know that you can expect this kind of thing from people, now that you've internalized these principles, you how you respond is still a complex matter, and to some extent, um a different one. But it's getting this orientation right that I think is essential.
00:21:23
Speaker
That's the main focus of this. a stoic ideas, focusing on that internal and orientation. And then if once that is set, um then you know, once inclinations to act once so behavior will be in a better spot.
00:21:41
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. I like just that reminder of, of again, not about yourself. it It is about yourself, but it doesn't end with just being resilient. It doesn't end with just being the statue that everything bounces off of. As Epictetus says, we shouldn't be unfeeling like a statue, but we should go out and act well.
00:21:57
Speaker
And so you know if your brother, your parents, ah your coworkers insult you, it's not just, I'm a statue and I don't feel any of this, nothing matters to me. It's though, okay, I hear you. I'm going to now act, but I'm going to act in a gentle way without anger towards you. um That's a pretty cool disposition to develop. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense.
00:22:21
Speaker
It reminds me of this, this is actually a song lyric um where it goes something like, um if your old man did you wrong, well, maybe his old man did him wrong. um And it's just this concept of, i think I think about the same thing as this perspective shift, right? Where you're insulted, you think about yourself. you know Your dad has treated you bad, you think about yourself. And it's like, well, what about them? Why did they treat me bad? Well, probably because maybe they were abused by their father. Maybe they were treated poorly by their father. And it's just that that's what I mean by empathy is that like next order perspective shift. And it's the same thing here of like, OK, he's he or she's insulted me. they didn' they They're angry. They've done something bad to me. Well, why did they do it? Well, because it seemed best to them and because of the what's happened to them in their life has made them think this is the right way to live. This is the right way to be happy.
00:23:17
Speaker
And if they're wrong about that, that's sad. um and i just it it's a it's a Yeah, you said shifting your perspective, shifting the way you respond to things, that's a difficult shift to maintain. But if you can, it's such a so much more grace in how you treat other people.
Stoic determinism and understanding
00:23:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think a related idea here is, of course, Stoic determinism. The Stoics were determinist, so they thought whatever happens was essentially necessitated by the past. And as such, people cannot act other than ah the way they do. and and And if people believe in determinism, many people respond to that by ah in a similar fashion, you know, seeing people as, you know, this person is acting like this way because ah that's just how the world has been set up because of their past experiences because of how their character has been formed and such. And
00:24:21
Speaker
I think it's intuitive, at least for for many people to to see that as a reason to be less immediately reactive, responsive and such to to other people's actions.
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:37
Speaker
it's something It's something I try to do. I mean, this one is something that I try to do. yeah And I always try to... um That idea about determinism, that idea of, look, that that person could not have acted differently in the moment. Maybe they could have acted differently hypothetically. like they Obviously, most people can do a different thing in the moment. um but they couldn't But in one sense, you know they kind of kept their mouth shut and not insulted me or not done that thing that was painful and mean. um But on another sense, they were who they were in that situation, responding to the stimulus they were responding to. And in that sense, they they're kind of pre-built. The reaction is predetermined. um It's a
00:25:24
Speaker
i think some people I think some people respond to it negatively because it almost seems to take away the sense of agency. right there's this um There's this view of like I'm mad at you because you could have done something different. If you couldn't have done something different, I wouldn't be mad at you. And I think that there is i think the the stoic response is to say, well, your your agency is in changing your character over time. Your agency is in in directing yourself in the path of self-improvement. But in any situation, you're only ever as good as you are.
00:25:54
Speaker
And so um that person has a responsibility. It's up to them to cultivate their character over time, but but it's not up to them to be a different person in the moment than they are. And that both both expecting people to improve and and hope the best for themselves and also meeting them where they're at, again, is another difficult difficult balance to hold. But yeah, one that I'm working on.
00:26:22
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's a good one. Something I've struggled with with both Socratic intellectualism and some of these arguments about determinism is that... I think you you sort of have this thought, this person is doing the best they can, therefore you ought to be gentle with them. But I sometimes wonder, does that does that really follow? so So if the person is doing the best they can, but they have a vicious character and they're exhibiting that in their actions,
00:26:53
Speaker
you know I think there there are so there are separate stoic arguments that we should that I think mean we should be skeptical about these kinds of judgments we have about others. you know They have a vicious character and so on. ah Many of our judgments about others might be too quick. you know If we draw comparisons between them and ourselves, yes, we also have vicious characters, but at least in some of the I mean, you can say some people, they do the best they can, but they have a terrible character or something like that. So so why why would it follow that you ought to be gentle with them? It isn't how you should treat them determined by their character. In the same way that you you know we explain whether a given pleasure is good or bad by how someone
00:27:40
Speaker
is experiencing and how you know what situation they're in, essentially, by ah their character. you know the sad The pleasure of the sadist is bad, the pleasure that someone feels um when they're creating beautiful music. That's that's good. And that that you know I think that that refers to, of course, facts of the situation, but also ah in some way grounded in their character. so that's um you know I've wondered about like is the Socratic intellectualism, determinism, if you take this really strong sort of character type base of you that I think you can find some support in stoicism, does both Socratic intellectualism and these arguments for more empathy because of determinism become less relevant? I'm not sure.
Character and treatment in Stoicism
00:28:26
Speaker
I'm not sure I'm following the argument. but I mean, I guess maybe I'm missing something, but I see the, you know, how you should treat people. Yeah. I guess your view is that, is that everybody should be your view or your argument is that, look, if if this, if the determinism and its crack intellectualism is true, then everybody deserves to be treated the exact same way because everybody is just only ever doing the best they can.
00:28:48
Speaker
which is And then you're saying that doesn't make seem to make sense. Some people should be treated better or worse. ah Good people should be treated better and worse people should be treated better or worse. people should be treated worse um And i guess I guess in the view is that worse people are treated worse or worse people do get what's coming to them. It just doesn't come from you.
00:29:13
Speaker
Comes from their own life and better people do get treated better and do you have better lives? It just doesn't come from you either um Maybe that's an answer. That's how people get what they deserve You're just not the one to dish it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah I just I just thought of that though. So I might be wrong. I think I was sort of maybe mixing two things together, which is I And I think you've you've partially answered one of these concerns, which is the first is just a question. you why what's you know What sort of grounds the move from people are doing their best to therefore you should be gentle with them. you know People are determined in their actions to therefore okay you should be gentle with them. you know what Why not just say, okay, people are determined.
00:29:57
Speaker
I'm determined. You sort of have that that that funny story about Zeno who's, you know, a servant steals his shoe or something like this. And then he says, the servant says, I was fated to do this. And Zeno says, you know, I was fated to beat you with a shoe once I recovered with it or something like that. ah So you you have you have that sort of version with it. And then the second thing I was trying to say, which maybe got muddled in a bit, which is that usually when we're thinking about how to respond to insults, maybe it's dependent on someone's character, which I think is a further view and it opens up a, it's a decent heuristic, but and I think there's probably a lot more to say there. And it's probably that the first one where we can make the most, most progress here.
00:30:35
Speaker
Well, is the view to be gentle with the person, is that also about yourself? So, I mean, I understand your point, which is like, if everybody's only ever doing their best, then it almost becomes like a mute point, right? Like, okay, everybody's doing their best, fine. Now, because that that's built into every argument ever,
00:30:51
Speaker
That's built into every conflict ever, and then so it almost cancels each other out. And then we're back to just judging people, well, is your best good or is your best bad? And if your best is bad, I'm going to get you, I'm going to get revenge. And if your best is good, we're going to be best buds. It almost cancels each other out. But I think this advice is about you, right? It's like, yeah be gentle with them.
00:31:10
Speaker
um I mean, maybe because they're already sick in the hospital bed with their ignorance and their confusion and don't want to double down, but don't become the kind of person that's angry and bitter and jaded at ignorant people in the world. um that's not a good That's not a good way to live.
00:31:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's well put. I suppose this comes back to the idea that, look, this idea about gentleness, it's a shift in you. It's okay it's a perspective shift. That's what's demanded. and And then what comes next? It should be grounded in that attitude. And it it can maybe it takes what you do next depends on you know demands of justice, ah demands of compassion, and so on.
00:31:53
Speaker
um but
00:31:57
Speaker
just because someone's determined, just because someone's doing their best doesn't mean that everyone should be treated equally or that's where these questions about, you know, what should Zeno do when his servant steals his shoe ah come into play and these sort of questions about fate and determinism sort of drop out and you need to pay attention to the concrete situation.
00:32:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's worth reiterating. So the idea, if somebody steals your shoe, there's there's the question of what kind of disposition should you have to thieves. And the stolen responses have a gentle disposition, at least in in terms of how you judge them and think about them. But then maybe that's a separate question to, OK, now, as you were saying, what does justice demand? what How practically do I go about punishing them?
00:32:44
Speaker
So but there's this kind of disposition, this emotional reflex that has to be a gentle one. And then there's this actual, this logistical, practical, ah cultural, contextual question of what punishment is deserved. And if we can separate those, I can still punish somebody while having a gentle disposition. I mean, we we talk about this all the time and in our episodes about anger and forgiveness, but think about the the Seneca example of, you know,
00:33:09
Speaker
you cannot hate a child and punish them. You cannot hate a child and scream at them because if if what they need from a parent is to be punished and to be screamed at, then your role demands that even if you're not angry on the inside. Maybe it's the same kind of thing here. Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's well put.
00:33:28
Speaker
Awesome. yeah Did you have any other shots you want to take away from this passage? No, I mean, I just think that's a that's a great, lots of great ideas there. I'd like to read it one last time before we finish. Let's do it. So now with that context in mind, although we've talked to that, we'll do it one more time. Savita says again, Handbook 42, when someone acts badly towards you or speaks badly of you, remember that he is acting or speaking in ah in that way because he thinks it is appropriate for him to do so.
00:33:57
Speaker
Now, it's not possible that he should follow what appears good to you, but rather what appears so to him, so that if he judges wrongly, he is the person harmed, since he too is the person deceived. For if anyone should suppose a composite judgment to be false, the composite judgment is not harmed, but he who is deceived about it. Setting out then from this principle, you will be gentle with a person who reviles you, for you will say on each occasion, it seemed so to him.
00:34:26
Speaker
Awesome. Thanks, Michael. Thanks, Gil. Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become more.
00:34:50
Speaker
Stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyer.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.