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Stoic Attention (Episode 134)
889 Plays6 months ago
In this conversation, Michael and Caleb discuss Epictetus’s chapter On Attention (Discourses 4.12). It’s an essential reading from the Stoic master on an essential topic.
Caleb and Michael also preview an upcoming conversation on Moderation…Stay tuned. It will be released in the next few weeks.
(01:04) The Importance of Attention
(06:07) Pay Attention Now
(08:48) Attention Fuels the Fire
(10:27) Always On
(15:08) What's Wrong With Phones
(20:41) Moderate Shoutout
(22:17) What Are You Attending To?
(31:45) What Else Should You Pay Attention To
(34:59) The Meaning of Life Is Game
(37:48) Attention Is a Habit
(45:31) The Soul Becomes Dyed With the Color of Its Thoughts
(48:45) Reactive Focus
***
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Transcript
Introduction to Managing Emotions and Attention
00:00:00
Speaker
I will get angry. I will be envious today. See how many evils you're permitting yourself. But if it is well for you to pay attention tomorrow, how much better would it be today? If it is to your advantage tomorrow, it is much more so today so that you may be able to do the same thing again tomorrow and not put it off once more.
Hosts Introduction and Stoic Attention
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to Estoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Montavarros. And I'm Michael Trumbly.
00:00:28
Speaker
And we're going to be talking about Epictetus on attention. So one of those episodes where we do a close reading on one of the classic Stoic texts. And this is on a topic both
00:00:45
Speaker
I think both Michael and I care a lot about, you know, attention, how you use your attention, approve your faculty of attention and such.
Epictetus on Attention and Mindfulness
00:00:54
Speaker
And Epictetus has a whole chapter on the topic in his discourses, which is excellent. And that's what we're going to be going through today. Yeah, excited to do that. I mean, attention always seemed to me when you when we're talking about living well or thinking well, it seemed to be the same thing as like,
00:01:15
Speaker
your cardio if you're running or your muscular strength if you're lifting, it's like the medium by which you think well is your attention. If you can control it, if you can maintain it, if it can be hard to be broken, then you have a leg up in terms of how you're thinking.
00:01:32
Speaker
and how you're doing compared to other people. So I'm always interested in this idea of why attention matters and how we develop it. So I thought for today's episode, we look at what Epictetus has to say about this. This is from the Discourses of Epictetus. This is book four, chapter 12, if you want to follow along or read it yourself after. I'll also be using Robin Hard's 2005 translation of Epictetus.
00:01:56
Speaker
That's one that I recommend just because it's a complete edition. It has all of the discourses, the handbook, and then the fragments, which are the little bits.
Stoicism vs. Buddhism: Misconceptions and Overlaps
00:02:06
Speaker
We're ancient sources, Quora Pictina, so we assume that he most likely said these things.
00:02:12
Speaker
And some, some copies of Epictetus just leave parts out and you don't even notice it or there'll be a bridge without displaying it or mentioning it. I haven't compared, I haven't read the recent waterfield translation of Epictetus, but that might be good too. This is just my kind of go-to again, the 2005 Robin hard. So.
00:02:32
Speaker
Another reason why I wanted to dig into this topic is I see, I always try to push back against the way I see people receiving stoicism, especially on the internet, because where I'm engaged with most people that are into stoicism. And so I see a lot of people kind of complain that there's no space for mindfulness.
00:02:49
Speaker
in Stoicism, when people talk about meditating, people often say, oh, you're getting confused with Buddhism. This isn't Buddhism. This is Stoicism. And they say, you know, you're incorrectly mixing these ideas together. But Stoicism has this tradition of really focusing on our attention, building our capacity to be mindful. And mindful is a couple, being mindful can mean a couple of different things, but it certainly means your capacity to apply your attention in the scope
00:03:18
Speaker
and the direction that you want to for prolonged periods of time. That's something I think you try to build and cultivate through any kind of mindfulness practice. And so attention, and the Greek word for this is prosok. That's something that the Stoics really cared about cultivating and building. Maybe they had different strategies for doing that. That differed a bit from Eastern practices, but it's not like this is a foreign idea.
Prosequé: The Stoic Concept of Attention
00:03:43
Speaker
Stoicism is about making proper use of our impressions, which means when situations encounter us, it's about thinking through those situations correctly, making the right choices when we're confronted with challenging difficult situations. And that requires an incredible degree of mindfulness and ability to be present in the moment and thoughtful in the moment. And that's where that idea of attention or prosocé comes in.
00:04:06
Speaker
And that pros okay, that's just Greek. It means to hold to, you know, you, they would use this term for like holding a boat in place. Um, and that's the same kind of idea as attention, which is to attend to something. It's just this idea of, I would say directing the focus in a specific location, your mental focus.
Stoic and Buddhist Attention Practices
00:04:26
Speaker
So I wanted to see what Epictetus had to say on that. And that's why we'll go into his, his chapter specifically on attention before I jump into it, Caleb, anything else to add to that?
00:04:35
Speaker
Let's see, I thought that was great. I think just on that connection between Buddhism and Stoicism, it's certainly true there's this temptation to make them overlap too tightly, but I do think there is both some useful similarities between the two.
00:04:52
Speaker
philosophies and ways that they can interact in a positive fashion with one another. And I think this focus on attention, mental vigilance, and such is one key way in which both Buddhism and Stoicism overlap and why people are often attracted to both of the life philosophies initially.
00:05:16
Speaker
You don't want to treat them like they're the same thing, but it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive just because stoicism thought it and said it doesn't mean Buddhism or any other contemporary doesn't have anything in common with somebody else. There is a lot overlapping. What matters is you get the parts that are really unique or distinctive separate, but there's a lot of overlapping there. I think in any kind of philosophy of life.
00:05:38
Speaker
And if you want to hear more about our thoughts on Buddhism, I should say that we have that other episode that we'll drop in the links. That'd be great. We've built up like a collection of episodes now where if we say something, instead of it having to be a one-off, you can always refer back or usually refer back, which is really quite nice. Yeah, yeah. That's all the way back in episode 81, Buddhism 101.
00:06:07
Speaker
Nice.
Epictetus' Chapter Analysis on Attention
00:06:09
Speaker
So I'm going to go through most of the entire chapter on attention, say a couple lines, and then we'll deconstruct it, go bit by bit. So this is really just being an analysis as we go. So let's kick things off. So again, book four, chapter 12, on attention by Epictetus. What Epictetus says to start, he says, when you relax your attention for a while, do not fancy you will recover it whenever you please.
00:06:36
Speaker
But remember this, that because of your fault of today, your affairs must necessarily be in a worse condition on future occasions. And so what is Evictita saying here? I mean, in simple terms, he's saying, look, if you
00:06:52
Speaker
If you don't pay attention now, don't think you just screwed up now, you screwed up later too. There's consequences to not paying attention. And I think what Epictetus is pointing to here is this key idea in stoicism of the positive or negative kind of psychological feedback loop. And the way that I like to, or you know, that we've talked about this Caleb is this idea that the quality of your thinking is determined by the quality of your beliefs.
00:07:18
Speaker
And the quality of your beliefs is determined by the quality of your thinking, right? So if you don't pay attention, maybe you're watching, maybe you're reading some news and you're not reading it critically, somebody's saying something to you and you're not second guessing this idea that they're bringing up. If you're not paying attention, you're not thinking critically, that can introduce false beliefs, bad ways of thinking, and then that will actually interfere in the future.
00:07:42
Speaker
with how well you think. So there's this idea, you know, right off the bat, Epictetus is just saying, look, attention is not just about, do you perform well or poorly in the moment?
Importance of Developing the Habit of Attention
00:07:53
Speaker
But there's these downstream consequences to not paying attention to not thinking carefully.
00:08:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's also related to this just this, this static focus on habit and your this reminder that every decision involves forming your character in some way or another. And
00:08:19
Speaker
That's why there's this focus on to use another metaphor, fueling the right fires, you know, paying attention now to build that muscle of attention as it were, or build that habit of paying attention in this situation as opposed to, uh, creating a habit of zoning out in this situation and making it harder to pay attention next time it arises.
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah, well that's just what Epictetus says next. Jumping ahead. You're anticipating it. Yeah. I mean the next thing Epictetus says is first, and this is the gravest matter of all, a habit arises in you of not paying attention.
00:08:59
Speaker
And next, a habit of deferring attention. And so you get into the habit of putting off from one time to another the happy and befitting life that would enable you to live and continue to live in conformity with nature. So this is exactly what you're saying, Caleb, is I tried to argue
00:09:17
Speaker
And I think this part of this is that, look, when you don't pay attention, you think you let in poor beliefs, you get angry, you get upset because you're not being your best self. But another aspect of this is that you're actually, as you said, putting fuel in the fire of kind of being mentally lazy. You're putting fuel in, fueling the fire of, as Epictetus says, the habit of not paying attention, the habit of not being a kind of aware or critical thinker.
Attention in Leisure and Work
00:09:45
Speaker
So the first part of this is really about the consequences. He's trying to get his students, he's lecturing to his students. He's trying to get his students hooked on this idea that this is actually a bad thing. You're not having a habit of being mindful, of being attentive to what you think. This is actually a consequence. And part of that consequence is that's the kind of person you become. And who is a happy person? Well, they're somebody who's able to pay attention, somebody who's able to be mindful.
00:10:15
Speaker
So when you build the opposite habit, you move further away from the good life. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a key point.
00:10:27
Speaker
And so that's that first part. Look, clearly Epictetus thinks attention is important. And so next, he talks about why we should be attentive all the time and goes against some criticisms of being attentive. So this is a bit of a longer part. He says, now, if to defer things is advantageous, it is still more so to give them up altogether.
00:10:54
Speaker
But if it is not advantageous to defer things, why do you not maintain your attention continuously? Some student says, I want to play today. What is to stop you then, provided you attend? And by attend, Epictetus means here is you pay attention as you do it. You're mindful as you do it. I want to sing, somebody says. What is to stop you then, provided you attend? For surely there is no part of life to which attention does not extend.
00:11:22
Speaker
For will you do a thing worse by attending, and better by not attending? And is there anything in life which is best performed by inattentive people? Does a carpenter by not attending do his work more accurately?
Mindful Attention vs. Impulsive Actions
00:11:37
Speaker
Does a helmsman by not attending steer more safely? Or is any other, even of the less important functions, performed better by inattention?
00:11:48
Speaker
Do you not perceive that when you have let your mind stray, it is no longer in your power to call it back, either to propriety or self-respect or moderation. But you do everything that occurs to you. You follow your inclinations.
00:12:04
Speaker
And here I think it's a really, so breaking down this quote, I mean, I think it's a really kind of beautiful piece, right? And just in plain language, the idea is like, well, why do you not, I mean, the first part in plain language is, look, if attention is good, sometimes it's good all the time. If attention is not worth it, get rid of it. And if it's good, do it all the time. And then somebody provides a counter argument. Well,
00:12:25
Speaker
Sometimes I just want to live freely, live frivolously. I want to sing, I want to play. I don't want to be sitting, focusing on how I'm living, focusing on if I'm living in accordance with nature, focusing on if I'm being a good stoic. I just want to goof around sometimes.
00:12:43
Speaker
And Epictetus, his counter to that is like, well, does paying attention, does it actually impede goofing around? Does it impede singing? Does it impede playing with your friends? No, just like the carpenter does better when they pay attention. You play better, you sing better, you have actually more fun when you're mindful and attentive. So these things are not mutually exclusive, they're not contradictory to one another.
00:13:12
Speaker
And then at the end, there's just this idea again that look, there's a real consequence of losing your attention. You do everything that occurs to you. You follow your inclinations when you're not mindful, when you're not consciously aware of how you're acting. You dip into this poor behavior.
00:13:30
Speaker
That I think that's the same argument he made above. I think that's the same kind of idea. But I really like that, that new idea of look, you can actually have more fun. If you do it mindfully, these are not, these are not opposites. It's not, it's not be serious or be playful. That's a false dichotomy. What do you think of that?
Maintaining Focus Amid Distractions
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, this is a, this is a great passage in addition to that point, which is key. There's this thought that.
00:13:58
Speaker
Maybe if someone says you ought to pay attention, you have this idea that there's this duty of attending to something seriously. But your point, and the point that Epictetus is making here is that attention has different forms. So you can attend to something in a playful way, or when you're working on an art, a craft, at a social gathering, what have you. And I do think that's an important point.
00:14:27
Speaker
definitely. There's also this idea, do not perceive that when you have let your mind stray, it is no longer in your power to call it back. That brings to mind, you know, this idea of stoic freedom, managing impressions well, and not responding to them like an automaton like a robot, but instead,
00:14:53
Speaker
you know, not another way to put it, I suppose would be not reacting to the world, but responding to it after reflection, making good, excellent choices. So that's another part of the passage that stuck out to me. Yeah, I mean, I loved your first point. When we think of attention, I think if you say that, you know, even me just saying it out loud, you think of a school teacher, you know, being mad, you're not you're not you're not paying attention to the homework, you're not paying attention to the front of the board.
00:15:23
Speaker
And as you said, there's this idea of duty or respect. You pay attention to show respect. You don't get lazy or slack off because it's disrespectful to the teacher, the presenter, whoever's talking. But as you said, there's this idea of paying attention as something you do for yourself and different kind of ways. It's not something you owe somebody else out of respect. It's something you do for yourself to live well, to enjoy your life. I was just thinking of like,
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, I don't want to be too kind of old man yells at people to get off the yard here. I'm not at this stage of my life. But if you think of something, maybe it's not the best metaphor, but people with their phones out in the concert, right? I often think you're not paying attention to the moment.
00:16:11
Speaker
You're trying to film something for later, but you're not paying attention to the moment and that's not disrespectful to the performer. I think you're depriving yourself of something by thinking about how can I get the best photo rather than taking in the experience in the moment. That playfulness to attention I thought was a really good point. I think that's a good example because I think what that brings out is that there's
00:16:36
Speaker
you know, what are you attending to? And we're going to get to that later because Epictetus has some advice on that. You could imagine someone who in that situation, who
00:16:50
Speaker
in a sense is in control of their attention.
Freedom and Mindful Attention
00:16:53
Speaker
But what they're devoted their attention to is thinking about capturing the event for some other purpose instead of being there. And that's sort of a choice they've made. So there's that point. But there's also, I think, related to the phone is that phones are, of course, full of distractions. You have new messages coming in.
00:17:17
Speaker
other people are trying to show you know what how they're capturing the event and so on both in front of you or perhaps on social media what have you and that's I think analogous to what Epictetus says at the very end you're basically saying look if you're not paying attention then you're just letting whatever comes up
00:17:43
Speaker
fill your mind. You're just going to do whatever comes into your head, basically. And I suppose a phone is like that, in the sense that you're just letting your attention be dragged by whatever other people are pushing to you, messages, whatever is on your feed, and so on.
00:18:02
Speaker
And then also, you know, you're involved in this, in that very same game, pushing other things to other people, and so on, which is more reactive than reflective, I think. So I suppose that was just a long way of saying, look, there is that, what are you, the question, what are you attending to? And then, are you letting your mind wander or be captured? Yeah, I think that's a really good way of putting it, right? Like,
00:18:28
Speaker
I think you're on to something, at least it's helping me push through my understanding here. We can think about attention as just what you're consuming, right? Your head is in, you're looking at your phone or you're giving your attention to your phone.
00:18:45
Speaker
But what Epictetus is saying here, which you pointed out at the end, there's that freedom. It's like that line that's often attributed to Viktor Frankl, but isn't actually his, is that idea about, you know, there are freedom lies in the space between, you know, stimulus and response.
00:19:03
Speaker
And that's what Epictetus is saying here, right? When you lose your attention, Epictetus says, quote, you do everything that occurs to you. You follow your inclinations. So attention is not what you're looking at. It's not what you're consuming. It's a kind of, it's a mindful, as you use the word reflective,
00:19:22
Speaker
responsive. It's a mindful maintaining of the space between stimulus and response and a kind of an awareness and it's a maintaining of the freedom. It's a maintaining of kind of a participation rather than just the passive consumption.
00:19:38
Speaker
So I think that's like a critical distinction. It's one I was working with under the surface, but I think that's like really important for what the Stoics mean when they talk about Proseque. You know, regardless of what the English, what we think attention does or doesn't mean, that's what they're talking about with the Proseque is like the vigilant maintenance of that space, of that freedom.
00:19:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. If you think about this in terms of still psychology, I suppose you have impression, reflection, and a sense and the ability to attend is, you know, that awareness of impressions so that you can actually reflect on them and assent to them in a skillful way.
00:20:16
Speaker
Yeah, and that's why you follow your inclinations is just this idea of just impulse ascent, impulse ascent, stimulus response, stimulus response, and attention is maintaining that gap, which you don't need to act in, right? Like sometimes you're not going to do anything. You're just going to do the response you would have done anyway if you weren't paying attention, but at least the freedom exists and you're participating in it.
00:20:36
Speaker
Well, you were jumping ahead again. You were anticipating Epitetus here. Well, one other thing I wanted to say about this to call out, which is really cool. We had that conversation on moderation and how
00:20:49
Speaker
Stoics break up the virtue of moderation into their different parts. And I spoke about the text from Arius Didymus. And we mentioned that the big three Stoics don't break things down cleanly as he does. Here are the four virtues. You are there four, five, what have you, subcomponents. But they do talk about the subcomponents that Arius Didymus names.
00:21:16
Speaker
which suggests there was that common tradition. And you do see it here where Epictetus is talking about some of those parts of moderation, propriety, self-respect, and what's translated by heart as moderation. So I think that's really cool.
00:21:36
Speaker
Yeah, so you so the your the idea kill is that whatever Tita says, he says, you know, don't don't think that when you've let your mind stray, you'll have the power to call it back to propriety or self respect or moderation. And the idea is these these are
00:21:52
Speaker
moderation is moderation, but then propriety and self-respect are sub-components of moderation. We talked about that in our episode, but Epictetus is just calling back to these specific stoic ideas of ways that you should be moderate. Once you lose attention, you can't do that because you're not in
Social Pressures and Stoic Values
00:22:09
Speaker
control anymore, as we were saying, your input-output stimulus response.
00:22:15
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, great point. So then, let's move on to the next paragraph by Epictetus. And this was, as you said, well, okay, there's different things you can pay attention to. You can pay attention to your phone or the concert. Both might be attention, but what matters is the content of that attention. To what are you attending? You were asking, Kiela, we're bringing up that idea. So again, anticipating Epictetus, he says next, to what then must I attend?
00:22:42
Speaker
Why, in the first place, to those universal principles, which you must always have at hand, so that you do not sleep, or get up, or drink, or eat, or approach other men without them, that no one, namely, these are the principles, that no one is master of another's choice, and it is in choice alone that good and evil lie.
00:23:07
Speaker
No one, therefore, has the power either to procure me good or to involve me in evil, but I alone have authority over myself with regard to these things. Since these, then, are secure for me, what need have I to be troubled about externals? What tyrant can intimidate me? What disease? What poverty? What obstacle?
00:23:28
Speaker
A student asks, but I have not pleased so-and-so. Epitee responds, is he my action then? Is he my choice? Is he my judgment? No. Why do I trouble myself any further about him then? He's thought to be a man of some consequence. He's thought to be important. That's why I'm worried about him.
00:23:48
Speaker
Abitita says, let him look to that and they who think him so, but I have one whom I must please, to whom I must submit, whom I must obey, God and after him myself.
00:24:03
Speaker
And so I think Epictetus is providing this lovely example of the benefit of attention. So in plain language, what should I attend? First, I always keep in mind, I always keep on hand, and the handbook
00:24:20
Speaker
from Epictetus was literally the tool for keeping these things in your hand, in your pocket. I must always keep in hand the primary principles of Stoicism, namely that the only thing that's good or evil is good choice and bad choice, good character and bad character. And because of that,
00:24:38
Speaker
Nobody can give me anything good or force me to do anything evil because I make a good life or I participate in evil, but no external things can harm me. And then I think what we get after there, that second part about, you know, I've not pleased this important man. And then you kind of engage in this question and answer, what does that matter? Well, people think he's really important. Well, so what?
00:25:04
Speaker
And that's kind of a question and answer. I think Epictetus is showing what it's like to kind of think and reason through this when you have these principles on hand, when you pay attention to these principles.
00:25:14
Speaker
If you go through life without paying attention to them, some question about your reputation, about your possession comes along, and it's scary, it's worrisome. You get caught up in these issues concerning externals. But Epictetus is showing, look, if you pay attention to these stoic ideas, if you keep them on hand in the front of your mind, pay attention to them, then you're already prepared to reason your way through these situations and end up on the right side of them.
00:25:43
Speaker
I think they're also like just last thing, just a really cool kind of key summary of the universal principles to keep on hand. That idea that no one's the master of anybody else's choice and in choice alone, good and evil lie. So no one can give me good. No one can involve me in evil, but I alone have power over myself with regard to these things. That's a great two or three lines about stoicism and what Epictetus thinks you should be paying attention to.
00:26:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's really cool. This is an excellent summary of the Stoic principle. So I suppose that's just his answer about what you should attend to in each moment are these core Stoic ideas and this mindfulness of what's up to you and what's not. And then so I suppose as you say that that next part is just a
00:26:35
Speaker
Example of what does this look like by you know through interacting with a student and a situation they are encountering And you can see that This you know, he the student pushes back and says, you know, well, what about this? This person I haven't pleased this high status maybe famous important type person And I think that's an example of
00:27:03
Speaker
how if one isn't paying attention, you'll tend to do whatever occurs to you. And socially, that's following the status, following whoever's important, famous in your circles, and so on. And Epictetus is saying, well, attention with these stoic principles can free you from
00:27:33
Speaker
that natural cycle or just blindly walking down that natural path. Yeah,
Attention in Social Contexts and Role Ethics
00:27:42
Speaker
exactly. It's like this thing of like try to enter into a public space and not do what other people do.
00:27:48
Speaker
If you're not really intentional about it, you know, if somebody if somebody enters a room and they're famous or rich or Powerful, everybody kind of gets quiet or everybody thinks acts like oh, I really want to impress this person You're gonna do the same thing. You're gonna care about the same thing. It's gonna mirror the people around you so you have to intervene you have to and this I think is the the battle of the intermediate stoic right is you're caught between the sage doesn't have to
00:28:17
Speaker
The perfect stoic doesn't have to battle with these thoughts because they just don't have these thoughts. They just don't occur to them. The non-stoic doesn't have to battle with these thoughts because they think it matters what the important person thinks. What they're battling with is the best way to gain favor. But the intermediate stoic knows on one level that it doesn't matter if you impress so and so, but on another level is still
00:28:42
Speaker
socially susceptible to these kind of to these cues still has some beliefs about the importance of externals. And so, what makes the difference is how you, how you pay attention to it right. You think about that in any sort of skill development.
00:28:59
Speaker
The professional athlete, LeBron James doesn't have to think about how he shoots his shot. Somebody who doesn't play basketball also doesn't care. The intermediate person has to pay a lot of attention to their form and to get that technique correct. They need attention to intervene in that intermediate level of skill development. I think that's, I mean, as you were pointing out, I think that's what's going on here because otherwise you'll just do what other, you'll fall to the floor basically instead of reaching your ceiling.
00:29:29
Speaker
Which is another reason why I think it's generally good advice to be careful of your peer group because I think attention is hard. And so if you don't have good attention, you're going to do what other people do.
00:29:45
Speaker
Yeah, as Epictetus says, you do whatever occurs to you. Well, it's better to be around in those moments of weakness. It's better to be around people who don't propose bad ideas, I guess, or don't make bad ideas occur to you. So that's the value. If when you lose attention, you fall to your floor, well, then who you're hanging around with, who you spend time with changes who your floor is, I think.
00:30:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point. I suppose you, I suppose in this project, you're trying to improve your ability to pay attention, but also, you know, ensure that you do the right thing when attention, attention fails. And you can do that by changing your friend group. Maybe I'm sure there, there are other examples about if you know, you're not going to be paying attention as well when you're tired.
00:30:34
Speaker
how can you either become less tired, which at some point is going to become an impossible project. And so then make sure that you don't make important decisions when tired and so on. Yeah, exactly. I guess that's kind of the flip side.
00:30:52
Speaker
Because Epictetus, he's trying to argue that attention is important, but then once you're like, I know attention is important, but I'm just not perfect, what do I do? Then I guess that flip side is like, okay, well, there is some ways to actually, if you think it's important, but you're not gonna be able to do it all the time, there's some ways to kind of mitigate the damage that comes from being thoughtless, I guess. So that was what Epictetus has as the most important thing to pay attention to.
00:31:17
Speaker
And again, I'm just going to say it again because I think that is such a great summary of stoicism. That no one is master of another's choice and it is in choice alone that good and evil lie. No one therefore has the power either to procure me good or involve me in evil, but I alone have authority over myself with regard to these things.
00:31:38
Speaker
That's great. I just wanted to read that out again for those that don't have the text in front of them. What a great summary of Stoicism. So Epictetus, next he says, the next passage is this idea, well, those are the most important things, but what are the other things you should pay attention to? Because it's not just that.
00:31:53
Speaker
And he says, quote, in the first place then, these are the principles we must have at hand, what he was mentioning previously. And we must do nothing without them but direct our soul to this mark, to pursue nothing external, nothing that is not our own, but rather to pursue, as he who has the authority ordained, things that lie within the sphere of choice, without reservation, and other things insofar as they are granted to us.
00:32:19
Speaker
So that's again, just a rearticulation of what we should pay attention to that key idea. In addition to this, we must remember who we are and what name we bear and endeavor to direct our appropriate actions according to the rightful demands of our social relationships. We must remember what is the proper time to sing and to play and in what company and what will be out of place.
00:32:42
Speaker
lest our companions despise us and we despise ourselves. When to joke and whom to laugh at, when to associate with others and with whom, and when we do associate with others, how to preserve our own character. Wherever you deviate from any of these rules, the damage is immediate, not from anything external, but from the very action itself. What I like about this, again, it's a really concise summary of Epictetus running through the educational program of Stoicism. First,
00:33:11
Speaker
character is the only good, it's the only evil, you focus on that no matter what. But then you also focus on your social rules, role ethics, how to navigate the world of externals appropriately. And we understand our social roles and the appropriate actions that come from them. And then again, there's this idea about attention
00:33:34
Speaker
So, well, you know, if I'm worried about who I'm hanging out with and who I laugh at and who I joke with and who I not, it kind of sounds, Epictetus, like you're talking about socializing like the people were before. Why do you make fun of the person who cares about impressing that powerful politician? But now you talk about
00:33:51
Speaker
who to laugh with and how to socialize. And Epictetus reminds us at the end, wherever you deviate from any of these rules, the damage is immediate, not from anything external, but from the very action itself. And Epictetus's point there is that when you socially misbehave, when you don't live up to your roles, it's not a consequence because you're going to become unpopular.
00:34:14
Speaker
It's not a consequence because people are going to stick their nose up at you. It's a consequence because you're not being as good of a person as you could be. You're harming yourself by not acting appropriately, again, giving your social roles and the appropriate social rules. Sometimes when you deviate from those, that's a good thing to do. Sometimes it's good to be unpopular.
00:34:36
Speaker
But when you break the ones that are good rules, you know, like being kind to others, not being disruptive unnecessarily, remembering to check in on your family or to live up to the rules you have as a family member, when you don't live up to those, you're actually harming yourself. You're making your own life worse. So great, great ideas there. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot there. It's hard to know what to follow up with. I've got an Epictetus summary of Stoicism and then
00:35:06
Speaker
Here's a summary of Epictetus. It makes me think of the analogy of life as a game and one way to understand what the Stoics are.
00:35:21
Speaker
up to is they're saying, look, everyone is not paying attention to the simple fact that they're playing a game, and they're not paying attention to winning. We're sort of like people going about muddling about and have forgotten that, you know, the way you win the game of life is by having an excellent character. That's that first principle. And then
00:35:46
Speaker
Epictetus says, once you have that in mind, then what he adds in this passage is, okay, you're paying attention to winning. Now, what does that look like in practice? What are the rules? Who are you? What are your talents? And that's where role ethics comes into play. How are you specifically going to show your character? Are you specifically going to
00:36:10
Speaker
when the game was going to come down to role ethics for the Stux or exhibiting their virtue in different situations. Yeah, I'm going to stretch this metaphor a bit too far. It might start ripping at the edges, but like, you know, we're all playing a game of soccer and the people who aren't caring about character and stuff like this, they're
00:36:33
Speaker
I mean, when I was a kid, I didn't like soccer. I used to, you know, chase the butterflies in the field. You know, I used to pick out the weeds in the grass. You know, some people like this, they're just not playing. They just don't realize what's going on. Then once you start playing, you don't want to be like all the kids chasing after the ball at the same time.
00:36:50
Speaker
Somebody's got to be the goalie. Somebody's got to be the offense, the defense. You've got to understand your position in the game to be a good player and to play well. Maybe that's the content of your roles.
Habit Formation and Immediate Actions
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. That's a great example. All of us are to life as nine-year-olds are to a soccer game. Don't be
00:37:17
Speaker
You know, don't be, don't be picking weeds out of the grass, but don't be the ball hog either. You gotta pay attention to both these things. And you can't be the ball hog and be like, well, I was trying to win. The goal is to win. And that's like the person who's like, well, I only care about character, you know, externals don't matter. And because of that, they're rude to other people and you know, they don't socially fit in. It's like, no, you're missing, you're missing how to play the game. You got the right goal, but you're missing how to play the game well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Anything else to add on that one? No, that's perfect.
00:37:48
Speaker
Okay, so jumping into the end of the chapter, a pretty short chapter here. And Epictetus is dense. That's what I like about this kind of thing is, you know, you could read this chapter really quickly and kind of move on to the next one, but there's a lot to dig into.
00:38:01
Speaker
So next he's talking to his students and he says, so is it possible to be altogether faultless? No, that is impracticable. But it is possible to strive continuously not to commit faults, for we shall have cause to be satisfied if, by never relaxing our attention, we shall escape at least a few faults.
00:38:23
Speaker
But as it is when I say, I will begin to pay attention tomorrow, you should know that what you're really saying is this, I will be shameless, inopportune, abject today. It will be in the power of others to cause me distress. I will get angry. I will be envious today. See how many evils you're permitting yourself.
00:38:45
Speaker
But if it is well for you to pay attention tomorrow, how much better would it be today? If it is to your advantage tomorrow, it is much more so today so that you may be able to do the same thing again tomorrow and not put it off once more to the day after tomorrow.
00:39:04
Speaker
Boom, that's a bit of a mic drop at the end there. We come back to this idea, I think, again, that Epictetus, we were talking about high and mighty, about characters, the only thing that matters. But at the end of the day, Epictetus is talking to his students. He's talking to regular, flawed people that are wrestling with the idea of stoicism. I, myself, include myself in that category. And Epictetus just kind of pulls it back down to Earth, and he says, look,
00:39:26
Speaker
Are you going to be perfect at this? No, you're not going to be perfect at this. But if you try and you make a few less mistakes, it was worth it, right? That's the first thing. Second, when you treat attention like it's trivial, like if you say, oh, pay attention to moral, you should flip it. You should say the opposite. Oh, yeah, today I'll get angry. Today I'll be shameless. Today I'll let other people control me.
00:39:51
Speaker
And he's like, if you flip it like that, you realize it's not a very casual thing to say. I'll start paying attention. I'll start being mindful of my behavior and how I think about things tomorrow. There's consequences to come with that. And then the last point, which I think is like really
00:40:04
Speaker
lovely idea about any sort of habit setting is that, look, if it's worth doing tomorrow, it's worth doing today. At least, at the very least, you'll stop tomorrow saying, I'll do it the day after tomorrow. At the very least, if you start today, you'll at least be developing the habit. You'll be breaking the habit of deferring, deferring, deferring. So even if you don't, even if no real work happens today, you've at least begun the project and that's really cool.
00:40:29
Speaker
So that's kind of how he closes things off. The whole chapter, this discussion of the importance of attention, the role of attention, and how that's something that we have to treat as important. Here's what it looks like in practice, and here's why we got to get going, and we can't just push this out any further.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. What devotees is good at is motivating you because of the contrast. It's what happens when one doesn't pay attention. And it's, it is powerful to bring to mind, instead of like, you know, the thought, I'm not going to pay attention. The idea that, you know, I'll be shameless and opportune abject, you know, I will get angry, I will be envious, whatever it is, you know, I'll do whatever comes into my head, even if
00:41:18
Speaker
The statement, I will not pay attention is very similar to, I'll let whatever comes into my head rule me. It's not what's top of mind when we, or at least I make these sorts of decisions. So I think bringing that contrast between what paying attention looks like and what acting inattentively looks like is motivating. Yeah. And, and, and I think, yeah, so I think at the end there, we get this idea.
00:41:47
Speaker
When we get this idea of attention as being kind of this, I don't want to say it's the most important thing in stoicism because I think as you laid it out, it's like you need the stoic principles to go along with it. So clearly attention is.
00:42:02
Speaker
on its own useless or not even useless but just like maybe not necessarily valuable. You need to pay attention to the right things but as you said without if you're not paying attention it's whatever comes in your mind is what you're going to do and if you do that
00:42:19
Speaker
If you do that, you're going to be shameless. People are going to make you angry. People have control over you. You have all these things. So attention is really this linchpin of stoic practice. And I would say it is the way that we typically frame it or I frame it at least is it is the practice thing.
00:42:34
Speaker
So when people talk about like, what are the exercises you can do in stoicism? Well, one of that exercise is just building that attention, building that habit, building that muscle, starting small, learning what it looks like to really think critically through a situation.
00:42:51
Speaker
and then building it up over time because when you say, well, what's the value of that? What's the importance of that? Well, you just need to look at the opposite, as you said. You just need to look at what is your life like if you don't do that. Well, at the best, it's just
00:43:09
Speaker
Thoughtless whatever comes into your mind and maybe what comes into your mind is good, but at its worst. It's all these bad things. So Yeah, so attention is one of the most important things in stoicism it's one of the most important things to cultivate because
00:43:25
Speaker
It is the tool by which we develop our minds and like weights are the tools you develop your body and so it's essential for, I don't think you can't be stoic without this idea of attention, I don't
Navigating Life's Events with Attention
00:43:42
Speaker
think. Yeah, yeah. I think that's absolutely right. One connection to
00:43:50
Speaker
what could make to other stoics and some other stoic ideas is, you know, Seneca is always talking about fortune and the fact that everyone is going to face adversity, prosperity, and because of chance at some level. And
00:44:14
Speaker
what a stoic does is they remove their happiness, or they don't invest their happiness in things outside of themselves. So in that way, they secure themselves against the happenings of chance. And I think the stoic use of attention is one way in which you do that. Because if you aren't paying attention, it's
00:44:40
Speaker
you know, maybe something that distracts you will be, you know, very pleasurable, or you just happen to get lucky or something like that to you. But another day, it will be the opposite. And over time,
00:44:57
Speaker
you become someone who can't control their attention and is hostage to whatever the outside world is presenting to yourself. So I like that connection of attention is in a way a fundamental mental skill from often what's the practical
00:45:19
Speaker
sort of psychological aspects that Seneca is discussing in his letter, but it's the same principle, I think, animating what both Seneca and Epictetus are talking about. Yeah. And I'm paraphrasing this by Marcus Aurelius, but there's the idea that the cloth of your mind or the wool of your mind is dyed by the color of your thoughts. And so the idea here is the quality of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts. And the quality, if you're not attentive,
00:45:49
Speaker
The quality of your thoughts is determined by things outside of you. Whereas when you're attentive, you're able to actually participate in your internal life. You're able to construct an internal life that is high quality.
00:46:06
Speaker
And you think about inattentive, like what does inattentive actually mean in practice? I'm trying to think, but I think about times when, when, when I, my past, I think like ruminated on certain things. So gotten into thought patterns or gotten into that are unhealthy and nonproductive or gotten into periods of like consuming a source of news or consuming a piece of information. Um, you know, sometimes I know myself, I'll become like,
00:46:37
Speaker
I think this is almost this ironic idea of it seeming like you're giving your attention to something, but you're actually kind of being inattentive in the fact that you're not creating any sort of space. I know I was maybe tracking the number of COVID cases for a while, or maybe you pay attention to the stock market or that kind of stuff more than you should be. And these are just kind of moments where I'm
00:46:59
Speaker
giving my attention up to something and it feels like I'm doing something, it feels like I'm interacting or I'm participating, but it's really just giving myself over to the highs and lows of something else, same kind of thing with news consumptions in certain ways. That is, so yeah, so inattention, I guess this is the point we mentioned, but I guess what I'm trying to pull back to is this idea that inattention isn't contentless.
00:47:23
Speaker
Inattention is just mindlessly consuming and then not reflecting on or not introducing or comparing any sort of stoic ideas or principles about how you want to live well against the things that you're consuming or the things that are taking up the space of your mind.
00:47:41
Speaker
Like a movie, right, where you're just observing it, that's your mind, as opposed to attention, which is this ability to recognize, well, I'm a person observing this movie and I can have other thoughts about it. I can interject, I can interrupt these processes or these thinking patterns and things like that. So that's what inattention is. It's not being lazy.
00:48:06
Speaker
It's not focusing on something. I guess what I'm saying is you can inattentively focus on things and that's important. That's not getting you around this problem. Attention here.
00:48:21
Speaker
is mindfulness, it's awareness, and that goes a step above just observation, right?
Reactive Focus vs. Mindful Awareness
00:48:31
Speaker
And so that's what we're looking, we're looking to move past observation to, I guess, mindful interaction and engagement. Yeah, and that's a key, that's a key, that's a keystoke idea to good life and good mental health. Yeah, that's a, I think that's a great point. What that makes me think of is,
00:48:50
Speaker
I suppose you know you have this idea you can be absorbed in the movie but if something else comes up in your environment you should be able to shift that your attention as you need to and not be slow to do so. Sometimes athletes will talk about
00:49:05
Speaker
like hard focus, which is, or like being in, I think Josh Waitskin says being in the hard zone or something of this sort, where he says, look, you know, sometimes you'd be playing chess or doing martial arts. And there's a kind of focus where you're narrowly centered on the activity, but
00:49:29
Speaker
as soon as something in your environment happens, you're sort of knocked off course, you're playing chess, you hear loud phone call, and you can't get back into the game. And I wonder if that's often connected to when it feels like you're in that focus state, say on the chessboard, you've actually just sort of very reactive and responding to
00:49:55
Speaker
your impressions without as much reflections as you think you have. And that's why when you hear that loud phone call, you aren't able to move back to the game. I think that there might be a useful idea there. Yeah, I mean, I think we're getting on to a bit of a
00:50:17
Speaker
I don't think it's connecting some other ideas, but the Stoic idea of the sage, there was arguments in Stoicism about if the sage could retain their character, even if they were drunk or sleepwalking or these kinds of things.
00:50:34
Speaker
And I think one of the arguments for saying that they could do this while they were drunk is if you use a craft analogy, as you would say, well, the sage is just so skilled at their craft that they don't actually have to pay attention. They just kind of perform in a flow state. And what I was hearing you to be saying was that
00:50:53
Speaker
some of these great skilled people, they ironically get so good that, like Epictetus says, is the craftsman made worse by attention? Is the pilot made worse by attention? But I think some people actually get so good that they can actually perform better in a flow state, which can seem like attention, but wouldn't be the kind of mindful awareness that we're talking about that Epictetus is hitting on, which is not actually flow state.
00:51:21
Speaker
It is more self-aware, I guess. Is that fair? That's what I was thinking when you were saying that. Is that accurate? I don't think so. I think we are getting a bit far afield, so maybe I'll edit some of this out if it's too far afield. This will be the next episode. Yeah, yeah.
00:51:46
Speaker
What you are saying is that sometimes it looks like you're paying attention or can even feel like you're paying attention to something, but really you're being reactive sort of in a focused way. Yes.
00:52:02
Speaker
I don't think necessarily elite performers can be in flow states. And that's one thing. But I think there are, you know, there are obvious examples of reactive focus. And that's maybe social media or video games, or gambling can have this sort of effects. But they're probably also more subtle ways where I think like the chess example, you're so zoomed into the game.
00:52:30
Speaker
But in a sense, you've become reactive. And that's shown by the fact that your attention is knocked off course by these external interruptions or your foot. And a lot of the languages here is unclear, but sometimes you will talk about being in a flow state or having like an open attention, which can handle distractions as they appear.
00:52:59
Speaker
The stoic way to talk about that I think is having the ability to attend to impressions and reflect on them appropriately. In a way, you haven't become unbalanced or immoderate in your attention on the chess game. And that's why you can quickly react if there's some emergency in.
00:53:23
Speaker
at the tournament or just gently bring your attention back to the game if there's some loud distraction. Or alternatively, like keep your attention so focused that, you know, nothing can disturb it because this is and you you know, you have good reason to approach the game like that.
Conclusion and Community Engagement
00:53:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think that was really well put this idea of reactive focus
00:53:50
Speaker
Contrasting that with what we're talking about, which is maybe like a mindful attention and that those can seem similar, but one has more fluidity and the other is a bit more rigid. I think an interesting distinction to end on and kind of builds on what Epictetus is saying here.
00:54:08
Speaker
All right, cool. Well, do you want to end by calling out any of, uh, I bet he does his lines from here or any other ideas? I mean, I was, I was going to go back to that, but, but, but, um, I mean, let's just end with the ending again. Um, you know,
00:54:27
Speaker
as Epictetus says at the end of this, but if it is well for you to pay attention tomorrow, how much better would it be today? If it is your advantage tomorrow, it is much more so today, so that you're able to do the same again tomorrow and not put it off once more to the day after tomorrow. And I just like that idea, that applies for any, that applies for attention or anything else. Do it today, it is worth doing tomorrow, it's worth doing today, and then
00:54:56
Speaker
even just to not off put it, even just to not delay again like we always do to the day after tomorrow. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Michael.
00:55:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become.
00:55:27
Speaker
more stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyre.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.