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Dr. Marion Orr on the Hidden Legacy of Charles C. Diggs Jr.
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A lot of us learned about Rosa, Malcolm, King… but not Charles C. Diggs Jr. — and that’s a problem. In this episode of Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony, we sit down with Dr. Marion Orr, author of House of Diggs, to unpack the life of the man who helped found the Congressional Black Caucus, showed up at the Emmett Till trial when no other federal official did, fought for DC home rule, and pushed the U.S. toward an anti-apartheid stance when presidents were still cozy with South Africa. This is Black political history at work — the kind that explains how we got Black flight attendants, Black committee chairs, and Black mayors in the nation’s capital.
Dr. Orr breaks down Diggs’ journey from Detroit to Congress, why representation on TV mattered to him as a kid, how HBCU professors shaped a whole generation of Black political scientists, and yes — we even talk about the scandal that ended Diggs’ career and why it shouldn’t erase his legacy.
If you’re into civil rights, congressional power, Black leadership, or you’ve ever said “how did I NEVER learn this?” — this episode is for you. 👉 Listen, like, comment, and SHARE — especially with folks in DC, historians, and CBC stans. 👉 Pick up House of Diggs to go deeper. #CharlesDiggs #BlackPoliticalHistory #congressionalblackcaucus #americanhistory #CivilRightsLegacy #unsolicitedperspectives
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Chapters:
00:00 Meet the Man Who Changed Black Politics Forever 🎙️🔥📚
00:19 Welcome to Unsolicited Perspectives 🎙️🔥
00:47 Why Charles Diggs Jr. Matters—A Conversation with Dr. Orr 🏛️💬🌟
03:14 From Savannah Streets to Political Science Dreams 🌟📖✊
05:44 The Professor Who Created Black Politics as a Field 🎓💡🖤
09:28 When Representation Changes Everything 👀📺⚡
11:10 The Power of Being Called 'Doctor' at an HBCU 🎯🏛️💪
12:59 Discovering Charles Diggs: The Forgotten Giant 🕵️📜🔍
16:46 Home Rule: When Congress Controlled Black DC 🏛️⚖️😤
21:23 Emmett Till's Trial: The Congressman Who Showed Up 💔⚖️✊
26:01 Courage Under Jim Crow: Five Days in Mississippi 😨🔥🎭
29:21 South Africa: The Fight That Defined His Legacy 🌍✊🔥
33:46 Fighting Apartheid When Presidents Wouldn't 💥🌍⚔️
36:23 Nixon's Enemy List and the Birth of the CBC 📋👁️💣
40:07 The Real Founder of the Congressional Black Caucus 🏛️👊🖤
44:40 The Scandal That Ended a Giant's Career 💸⚖️😔
48:08 His Fingerprints Are Everywhere You Look Today ✈️🏛️👀
58:22 Why We Can't Afford to Forget Charles Diggs 📖💔🔥
01:00:16 The Cost and Courage of Black Leadership in America 🎯✊🌟
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Engagement
00:00:00
Speaker
We're talking American history, more specifically, Black political American history. We're going to get into Let's get it.
00:00:18
Speaker
Welcome. First of all, welcome. This is Unsolicited Perspectives. I'm your host, Bruce Anthony, here to lead the conversation in important events, the topics that are shaping today's society. Join the conversation and follow us wherever you get your audio podcasts.
00:00:32
Speaker
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for our video podcasts, YouTube exclusive content, and our YouTube membership. Rate, review, like, comment, share. Share with your friends, share your family, hell, even share with your enemies.
Introduction to Dr. Marion Orr and 'House of Diggs'
00:00:45
Speaker
On today's episode, I'll be interviewing Dr. Marion Orr, author of the book House of Diggs. It's about Charles C. Diggs Jr., an important Black political figure in America's history that's been forgotten.
00:00:59
Speaker
But we're going to get into it. But that's enough of the intro. Let's get to the show.
00:01:11
Speaker
My guest is Dr. Marion Orr, the inaugural Frederick Lipton Professor of Public Policy at Brown University and one of the leading voices of race, urban politics, and black leadership in America. His new book, House of Diggs, is the first full biography of Congressman Charles C. Diggs, Jr., Michigan's first black member of Congress, a founding member of the Congressional Black Caucus, and behind-the-scenes force in the Civil Rights Movement.
00:01:36
Speaker
Diggs was the first there at the trial of Emmett Till's killers, worked along Dr. Martin Luther, the king, and helped spark the anti-apartment movement in the U.S. But his legacy is too often been overshadowed by a scandal that ended his career.
Diggs' Contributions and Background
00:01:50
Speaker
Dr. Orr's work uncovers not just the rise and fall of this powerful figure, but also what Diggs' story tells us about race, justice, leadership in America today.
00:02:01
Speaker
So without further ado, here is Dr. Orr. Okay. As I said at the top, I'm here with Professor, Dr. Marion Orr, the author of House of Digs, as well as A Terp graduate, got his PhD at the University of Maryland, College Park. Dr. Orr, I am so grateful to have you on the show today because we're going to be talking about your book and your life.
00:02:27
Speaker
And we're going to be talking about a person that's very, very important, not only in politics, but also in black politics and black history. So thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.
00:02:39
Speaker
Well, thank you, Bruce, for having me. I'm very excited about being on your show. Is it because we're Terp alum? and Yes. All right, so let's jump right into it.
00:02:51
Speaker
You built a remarkable career studying Black political leadership and urban politics. But before we dive into your book, I'd love to start with you. That's how I start all my interviews to get a little bit of background on you.
00:03:04
Speaker
What was your upbringing like? What was your upbringing like? And what experience led you to study the intersection of race, politics, and power in America? Well, my upbringing was a working class upbringing. I'm from Savannah, Georgia, born and raised in Savannah.
00:03:20
Speaker
And my mom and dad would be working class folk. In fact, my daddy could not read nor write. They got married very young and had three children.
00:03:31
Speaker
But I'm with the youngest of their three. so I was born and raised in Savannah. And I suspect I got interested in government and politics around high school.
00:03:45
Speaker
I was cool into my civic classes and history classes. Bruce, when I was in high school, ABC News hired the black journalist Max Robinson.
00:03:59
Speaker
that's probably shame Max Robinson was the first black man to anchor a national news program, ABC Nightly News. ah He anchored it.
00:04:13
Speaker
That's right. He co-anchored. And and you know Lester Holt was when one that recently was the anchor of NBC, but way back in the late 70s, ABC hired Max Robinson, a black broadcast journalist.
00:04:28
Speaker
And that thing so impressed me that I would run home every weekday evening to watch Max Robinson read the news from around the world and from the US.
00:04:43
Speaker
And I've become somewhat convinced and that watching Mr. Robinson each evening piqued my interest in government and politics. As I said, I excelled in civics and history in my high school, and I got involved in local things in Savannah.
00:05:01
Speaker
I helped some people run for city council when I was in high school, and I went to college also, Bruce, in Savannah. I'm a graduate of an HBCU called Savannah State University.
00:05:15
Speaker
It was called Savannah State College when I was there. And so, real quickly, and Savannah State University, We had on the faculty, perhaps one of the country's most brilliant political scientists, a man named Haynes Walton.
00:05:35
Speaker
Haynes liked the t-shirt company Haynes, his last name is Walton. your listeners might, viewers might want to Google Haynes Walton Jr. He was at Savannah from 1967 1992 before he got lured away to the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.
00:05:56
Speaker
Haynes Walton was a political scientist who taught black politics. He in fact helped create the subfield that we now have in political science that we now call Black politics.
00:06:11
Speaker
It was Professor Walton who really, in the late 60s, early 70s, began to write about Black politics and Black American politics. In fact, he published and wrote the first in the field textbook on Black politics.
Discovering Diggs' Story
00:06:30
Speaker
Wow. And I had the wonderful opportunity to work with Dr. Walton since I was 18 years old when I first met him until he died about 10 years ago.
00:06:46
Speaker
And Walton took me under his wing and I wanted to be just like Professor Walton when I was a young man. He published a lot of books. And as I said, literally created the subfield of Black politics. So um so I attributed in large part to for to but my my interest here, as you the question you raised, to my early interest in high school and and having the real blessing to connect with Professor Walton at Savannah State.
00:07:17
Speaker
And he became my mentor and friend. And I wouldn't be here talking to you if I had not been for... Dr. Walton and the other professors at Savannah State.
Diggs' Political Achievements
00:07:28
Speaker
So, yeah. So it seems like what you're saying to me is one representation. You saw a representation. You saw somebody that looked like you on the nightly news.
00:07:39
Speaker
And because you saw somebody that looked like you at the nightly news, you were paying attention to what he was saying and what he was saying and what he was talking about piqued your interest. And then when you get in college,
00:07:51
Speaker
you have a mentor that you revere and skyrockets. Is is that the basic? That's the end of the nutshell. Right. So you said your parents or at least your father could barely read and you're the youngest of three siblings.
00:08:08
Speaker
How was education pushed in your household? Because I know my grandfather was only able to finish high school to 10th grade before he had to go out and start working to help support the family. And then he raised three children, two of which has their masters. All of them have their bachelor's degree because education was so very important.
00:08:29
Speaker
And then the education trickled down. So I just want ask you in your household, how important was it as a foundation that started from your parents and then your older siblings?
00:08:40
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it was it was stress. Let me just say I'm the only one of the three to vote who have gone and finished college. Yeah. In fact, my my daddy used to say that he had one son who would not stop going to school. That's me because I got my BA, my master's and my PhD.
00:08:59
Speaker
And then he would tell his friends he had two who would not go to school. or check So I was i was really just lucky too. You hit it right when you said representation.
00:09:10
Speaker
When I walked on that campus at age 17 at Savannah State,
00:09:23
Speaker
and met those professors, those black professors out there, man, they blew me away. They really did. They were leaders in the Savannah community. Many of them on the school board, city council, various commissions.
00:09:38
Speaker
Growing up in a working class, almost poor community, I knew where they lived. They lived in some of best neighborhoods in Savannah for black people, I should add. So I knew where they lived.
00:09:50
Speaker
So they just so impressed me when I was in, and it was, I'll tell you this. I was 18 years old when I went home and told mom and dad I wanted to be a political science professor.
00:10:03
Speaker
those those Those people out there on that campus just really blew me away. They were very impressive. they are very smart. They care for their students. People like me who probably didn't have the strongest background, but they nurtured us, they cared for us, they wanted us to succeed.
00:10:22
Speaker
And for me, it was just a wonderful experience to be on that campus. And I was out there five years because I had to work and pay my way through college. My mom dad couldn't ah mom and dad couldn't afford to do that. So I had to work at night to get through Savannah State.
00:10:39
Speaker
But the bottom line is Those professors were so i impressive. They were very smart. I was 17 years old and I was like, my goodness, these people are just really something else.
00:10:51
Speaker
And I want to be just like them. okay so That's really what happened. I tell you no why. and they' were all you know At the black colleges, Bruce, everybody is called Dr. So-and-so.
00:11:01
Speaker
and the In the big white schools, you know people called their first names, but At Savannah State, at Morehouse, at Hampton, everybody who was a faculty member was referred to as Dr. So-and-so. Even your colleague called you Dr. So-and-so.
00:11:15
Speaker
And as a young 17-year-old watching those black people out there being called Dr. This and Dr. That, I was like, my God, I could be Dr. Too, you know? That's how it happened. I tell you no lie.
00:11:26
Speaker
And you did. And you became a doctor at the greatest institution, the University Maryland College Park. Yes, yes, yes. So I was really blessed. Let me just say thisious this is a strong sort of recognition of the role that HBCUs have played and continue to play in out in our country.
00:11:47
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. So... I love to tell the people how I'm a historian, how I have my history degree from the University of Maryland. And I love to tell the story that I didn't learn about the Tulsa Massacre. And I had a really good, I went to three different high schools. One of them was a private school. I had a really good high school education, but I did not learn about the Tulsa Massacre until I took an African-American history class at the University of Maryland. Sure.
00:12:13
Speaker
I'm interviewing you because you wrote a book about a man that I had actually had heard nothing about, but he is so vital and so important in not just American history, but Black history as well.
00:12:25
Speaker
What first drew you to Charles C. Diggs Jr.? And was the moment that you discovered that... What was the moment that you discovered, this is a story that I want to tell?
00:12:39
Speaker
Well...
00:12:42
Speaker
I discovered Congressman Diggs at Savannah State College in Professor Walton's classes. And Walton taught many of the courses at Savannah State because there's no huge faculty. you know so He's doing a lot of teaching, you see, and a lot of research and publishing. there was a He was a remarkable man. He taught a lot, taught well, and he also got books published.
00:13:05
Speaker
Charles Diggs came up... frequently in many of the courses that Professor Walton taught. If it was on Congress, he came up because Charles Diggs was the founder of the Congressional Black Caucus.
00:13:22
Speaker
If Professor Walton was teaching a course on city politics, Biggs would come up because Professor Walton would tell us about Washington, D.C. and how unique D.C. was compared to other cities because Congress controls Washington, D.C.
00:13:41
Speaker
And he would explain to us about home rule that Biggs helped develop in in Washington, D.C. Professor Walton taught a course called African Politics.
00:13:53
Speaker
The only course I ever had on African politics, quite frankly. And in that course, but Charles Diggs came up. And not as some sort of fly-by-night person, but a serious leader, a substantial player in Professor Walton's courses. So I learned about Diggs as an undergrad at Savannah State College.
00:14:18
Speaker
I'll go on to graduate school to study political science, Bruce, and I still learn more about Diggs and his contributions. And so after graduate school,
00:14:31
Speaker
and going through the tenure process, I just realized that no one, that no one had published or written a book on this person who I understood to be quite substantial.
00:14:45
Speaker
I discovered that He had left his papers at Howard University, the archives there. And once I discovered that, I began to think, well, maybe I should write this book. And and about almost 10, 11 years ago, I set out to write the first biography of Charles C. Diggs, Jr. And in this book, Bruce, I document that Diggs was the most consequential black person ever, ever to serve in the United States Congress.
00:15:21
Speaker
So that's the origin of the book. it It started way back as an undergrad when I learned about his contributions at Savannah State College. And I'm gonna cut the audience off before they even start to think it, because we're gonna get into the contributions of of Mr. Diggs.
00:15:38
Speaker
But everybody's gonna say, well, didn't Obama serve in Congress? Yes, and he did become president. However, when you understand everything that Charles Diggs did, you'll realize, yeah, no, this isn't hyperbolic.
00:15:54
Speaker
Dr. Orr is absolutely right. Diggs is the most important black person to ever serve in Congress. But you said something that I know my listeners here because I'm here in the D.C. area and I have a lot of listeners and watchers here in the D.C. area.
00:16:11
Speaker
You said something about House rule. This is the first time I'm actually hearing about that. Can you describe what Mr. Diggs came up with with the House rule in Congress? No, a home rule.
00:16:22
Speaker
Home rule. Excuse me, home rule. Yeah, home rule. Yes. Home rule for Washington, D.C. Should i explain that to your listeners? Yes, please. Oh, sure, sure. And I learned this in Professor Walton's class when he talked about city politics. He would always make the point that D.C.
00:16:39
Speaker
is different. How is it different? Well, it's a city of 750,000 people, just about, but it's a city that is a seat of a national government.
00:16:51
Speaker
It is the seat of our federal government. And if you read our constitution, the U.S. Constitution, it makes very clear that the Congress has, quote, exclusive, unquote, control over the federal district, which is Washington, D.C.
00:17:10
Speaker
And so, Bruce, many people don't know this. But listen, for about 100 years, The president of the United States appointed the local officials in Washington, D.C.
00:17:28
Speaker
That's right. The president appointed the mayor, the president appointed the city council members, and other high-ranking officials in the District of Columbia.
00:17:41
Speaker
That was not always the case. Here's the quick story. After the Civil War, I'm sorry, prior to the Civil War, you had what was called local democracy there.
Restoration of Home Rule to D.C.
00:17:54
Speaker
That is, the Congress and the President allowed local officials to be elected in the District of Columbia until the Civil War. When the Civil War came, more Black people moved to the district.
00:18:09
Speaker
They became free and became able to vote. And so during reconstruction, you began to see blacks gaining power and influence in the D.C.
00:18:21
Speaker
government. And it would be, this would be a problem for many whites. And so what would happen is they would take away local democracy from D.C.
00:18:31
Speaker
following Reconstruction. And the bottom line is that Congress did not want Black people, Black Americans, to run the federal district.
00:18:43
Speaker
And so for a hundred years, For 100 years, they stripped home rule away and allowed the president and other federal officials to appoint local officials for D.C.
00:18:57
Speaker
And it would not be until 1973, through the efforts of Charles Diggs Jr., that home rule would be restored, restored in Washington, D.C.
00:19:10
Speaker
Wow. Wow. And as you probably know, your listeners probably know, that home rule currently is under attack by the Republicans in Congress and john Donald J. Trump, the president of the United States.
00:19:27
Speaker
So home rule right now is really under serious attack. In fact, the Republican form, the party platform, makes very clear that they would like to strip home rule away from the voters in the District of Columbia.
00:19:44
Speaker
Wow. Yeah, I knew something ah knew something like that was going on. i did not know this was part of the platform, but it actually makes sense. it's in there It's in their platform. Your listeners and viewers can go read their 2024 platform.
00:20:01
Speaker
They want to wrestle control away from local officials in the district.
00:20:14
Speaker
So that's one example of Charles Diggs. importance in not only American politics, but also black politics. But let's go all the way back to when he was elected to be a representative.
00:20:31
Speaker
And there was a major event that happened in this country that kind of woke people up and might have been the catalyst for white Americans to really see why the civil rights and movement was so important.
00:20:47
Speaker
And that's the murder of Emmett Till. Now, he pops up at the trial of the two people that murdered Emmert Till. And it was fascinating learning about this because, once again, I knew nothing about this. But you go into detail about this in your book. Can you explain just how important it was for him to go there and really be the only...
00:21:12
Speaker
representative from Congress to be there, correct? It's just true. The only person, only member of the federal government to sit there in the trial. Diggs, as you said, Bruce, was elected in 1954, November 54.
00:21:28
Speaker
He goes to Congress, takes the oath of office in January of 1955. fifty five In the summer of 1955, there's an important trial taking place in a small town called Sumner, Mississippi.
00:21:46
Speaker
And as you indicated, two white men were on trial down in Mississippi for the murder, the lynching of Emmett Till.
00:21:58
Speaker
Emmett Till was a 14 year old black boy from Chicago who went to Mississippi in the summer of 55 to visit his relatives there, and he was murdered murder for apparently whistling at a white woman or something just to this effect.
00:22:16
Speaker
Anyway, Congressman Diggs, who just arrived in office, he was 32 years old, very young, relatively speaking, he decided that he would go down to Mississippi and sit in the courtroom and observe the trial of these two white men who allegedly murdered Emmett Till.
00:22:43
Speaker
Let me quickly add that after the trial, they confessed to to the killing of Emmett Till. Diggs' presence at the trial had a number of important factors that make his presence so significant down there.
00:22:59
Speaker
Number one, the black witnesses who saw the murder take place. were frightened to death because this is Mississippi in 1955.
00:23:11
Speaker
And any black person who accused a white man of murdering a black person, their life was threatened, okay? So these witnesses were really frightened about what they had witnessed and the fact that they were being now asked to come forward and and publicly testify at the trial and to you know accuse these two men of doing this.
00:23:37
Speaker
So Biggs' presence in the courtroom gave the Black witnesses the courage, the stamina, the support they needed to go through with their testimony.
00:23:56
Speaker
And I know this because the witnesses are quoted as saying after the trial that seeing the black congressman in the courtroom gave them the courage.
00:24:10
Speaker
Seeing the black congressman with power and influence gave them the courage to come forth. So he had an impact on the black witnesses who were frightened to death.
00:24:23
Speaker
Let me just add that Diggs, working with another Congress member, William Dawson of Chicago, had to work and arrange for those witnesses to leave Mississippi.
00:24:36
Speaker
Okay? They had to leave because they knew that they would not be able to survive. They would have been killed. And so Diggs helped arrange for the witnesses after their testimony to find a new life in Chicago.
00:24:51
Speaker
So, a big impact on the witnesses. And here's the other factor that he, impact he had, Bruce, that your viewers should know about. Diggs' presence, and you're right, he was the only federal official in the courtroom at the trial.
00:25:07
Speaker
Diggs' presence as a newly elected Black member of Congress, I argue, elevated the media interest in the trial.
00:25:19
Speaker
the His being down there, having the courage to go down there. Let me just say that this was, he wrote, Diggs later wrote about his experience down there during those five days. He wrote a series of essays for the Pittsburgh Courier describing the five days he was down there.
00:25:43
Speaker
And he says very clearly that he was frightened. They didn't allow him to, they they forced him to still, even though he is a elected official,
00:25:57
Speaker
A congressman. They still forced him to fall in line with the Jim Crow laws. And i think I read somewhere that he wasn't even allowed. He had to sit where black reporters were sitting. yeah This is true. The courtroom was segregated and the sheriff made it very clear that he said to bitch, I don't care if you're a congressman or not.
00:26:19
Speaker
You're going to observe the segregation policies we have here in Sumner, Mississippi. And so he, like the others, had to sit in a segregated section of the courthouse.
00:26:32
Speaker
In fact, they weren't going to let him in the courthouse at all at first. he had to He had to, the sheriff initially blocked him from coming into into the courthouse.
00:26:43
Speaker
It was only after Diggs got word to the judge that the judge allowed him to come in and the judge and the sheriff would sit him, as you said, in the Jim Crow section of the, of the courthouse.
00:26:54
Speaker
So Diggs' presence there was very significant. And let me just say this. Diggs going down to Mississippi just a few months after taking the oath of office was also sending a signal to America.
00:27:11
Speaker
about the role he planned to play as a new member of Congress. Diggs was saying right out of the box.
00:27:22
Speaker
that I plan to be a Congress member for all of Black America. That I know Detroit sent me here, I know I represent the 13th Congressional District of Michigan, but I am going to be a leader, a spokesperson, a representative for all of Black America. And when you look at his record,
00:27:48
Speaker
After you know his moving forward, you can see that is simply what he set out to do. he became one of the strongest voices of civil rights in this country, and he would go on in Congress and a lot of amazing things.
00:28:05
Speaker
Well, let's talk about some of the stuff that he did in civil rights and in Congress, because he worked with Dr. Martin Luther, the king. That's what I call him. Dr. Martin Luther, the king.
00:28:16
Speaker
And he also was a founding member and chair of the Congressional Black Caucus. When you look at his political career, what do you think is the most defining moment for him when it states of of him being a leader?
00:28:37
Speaker
me Well, yeah file yeah if if someone would push me on this on his on his legacy as such, it would have to be Africa.
Opposition to Apartheid
00:28:50
Speaker
It would have to be Southern Africa. Okay. Because he was banned from South Africa, correct? And here's why I say this. When Diggs was elected 1954,
00:29:02
Speaker
This is after the Brownlee board decision. He got elected in November. Brown was, I think, in May. okay Harry Truman has already moved toward desegregating the military and other efforts.
00:29:19
Speaker
You could see, Bruce, that our country was moving so ever slowly toward incorporating blacks into the political system and to our system, generally speaking, with the civil rights laws being passed.
00:29:37
Speaker
So my point is, he was a beach was a major civil rights leader, but I could suggest to you that some of the things he worked on was sort of moving in the right direction toward desegregation, for example, if you will.
00:29:52
Speaker
and You understand what saying? Yeah.
00:29:55
Speaker
Africa was different. okay especially Southern Africa. When you look at the record, it's very clear that had it not been for Congressman Diggs,
00:30:09
Speaker
using his position in Congress as chair of the Africa subcommittee, that it was Biggs who was the one who pushed and pushed and pushed until this country recognized that it had to sever its ties from the racist apartheid regime in Southern Africa.
00:30:32
Speaker
And my point is this, unlike civil rights in America, where you can see maybe the nation moving in the right direction from Brown, from Harry Truman to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, you don't see this in Southern Africa.
00:30:48
Speaker
Democratic presidents, Republican presidents, all were aligned with the South African regime. And they all were trying to work with the South African regime, largely because of the Cold War imperative.
00:31:04
Speaker
South Africa was strongly anti-communist, you see. So my point is this. I don't think our country would have moved in the direction away from South Africa had it not been from the pressure that Charles Diggs helped bring about in this country in the 80s, and eventually in the 1990s. So if I were pushed on this, I would say clearly his efforts in Africa, and particularly South Africa,
00:31:36
Speaker
were just monumental. And it was clear that he had a role in literally changing our policy. Listen, then I found letters and in the Nixon papers where President Nixon was trying to pull us closer to South Africa.
00:31:54
Speaker
Okay? Gerald Ford was trying to pull us closer to South Africa. Reagan was not someone who was you know trying to pull us away from South Africa.
00:32:05
Speaker
So my point is, Bing's work in this area was so critical because it really reoriented our national policy towards Southern Africa.
00:32:19
Speaker
So with the research you did for the book, uncovering FBI files, conducting interviews with families and colleagues and digging to the archives, obviously going through the stuff at Howard, did you know about his...
00:32:34
Speaker
the his importance of fighting apartheid beforehand? Or was this something that as you did the research for the book, you kind of honed in on and said, yes, he is very, very important in American history and Black political history.
00:32:50
Speaker
Extremely important. yes she But this... This is what's the most important thing. And was that discovered during the research? It it came upon reflection. It came upon reflection. Yes, as I just said, when you think about the arc of the movement in this country in terms of civil rights, clearly Dr. King and and and Congressman Diggs played a big role.
00:33:13
Speaker
But when you look at Africa, in particular Southern Africa, Diggs was trying to loosen the bonds between the two countries when Republicans in Congress, Southern Democrats in Congress, and the White House was trying to strengthen the bond.
00:33:32
Speaker
So for me, it's sort of upon reflection, I say, wow, when you look at this guy, he was really somewhat radical. on the issue of South Africa in terms of pushing our country away from the racist regime.
00:33:47
Speaker
Ruth, very few people knew about apartheid. And Diggs was talking about apartheid in the late 50s, early 60s, and the 1970s.
00:33:58
Speaker
So he he he was the person who really galvanized this nation around an anti-apartheid movement. And I lay out in the book how he facilitated that by helping create the organization that became known as TransAfrica. So he was phenomenal in this particular area. that's why think if I would push, I would say it's his work in South Africa that was so vital and so critical.
00:34:30
Speaker
Yeah, because what you're describing is a 25 to 30 year fight. That's right. Yeah. um's sad Okay. So you brought up Nixon.
00:34:40
Speaker
And Nixon actually had a list, an enemies list. Not unlike our current president, but we're not going to get into that. But Nixon had an enemy list.
Scandal and Legacy Impact
00:34:51
Speaker
And Mr. Diggs was on this enemy list.
00:34:53
Speaker
Yes. Now, I'm not going to make the correlation that this is what led to the scandal and imprisonment. But I will say that it happened not too long after Nixon put him on the list. yeah So can we talk about a little bit, and because I think this is the reason why He doesn't get talked about a lot in history.
00:35:22
Speaker
It's because of the scandal and going to prison. But he's maintained his innocence. He maintained his innocence until the end of his life, correct? Yeah, he did, although if you read the trial transcripts, and I read every 1,200 page of it, it's pretty clear that he that he violated he violated congressional payroll rules at the time.
00:35:48
Speaker
Let me just say this, you mentioned Nixon and the men enemies list. You see, Diggs was the founder of the Congressional Black Caucus. okay And I want to underscore this, because a lot of folk talk about the 13 founding members.
00:36:05
Speaker
okay And there were 13 founding members, of which Diggs was one of them. But everybody can't be the founder. okay Let me make that very clear. right okay all right And so when you read my book, House of Diggs,
00:36:21
Speaker
I lay out very clearly how Charles Biggs became the individual to help create what became the, who created it what became the Congressional Black Caucus.
00:36:34
Speaker
In the Biggs papers at Howard University, I discovered a letter. Bruce, a fascinating one, really took me away. A letter from John H. Johnson, Jr.,
00:36:49
Speaker
who was the founder of Jet Magazine and Ebony Magazine, Johnson Publishing Company. Your listeners may have heard of these before, viewers. In 1957, John Johnson writes to three Black Congress members, Adam Clayton Powell,
00:37:11
Speaker
from New York, William Dawson from Chicago, and Charles Diggs from Detroit. Johnson writes these three Congress members, and what he does is suggest that they should form a, quote, Negro caucus, unquote.
00:37:27
Speaker
Then he was suggesting that three of them should come together and form a caucus, a group among themselves, so they can sort of coalesce in solidarity and work together.
00:37:38
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Okay? Well, when you dig through the archives, here's what you find. Adam Clayton Powell wrote a dismissive note to Johnson's idea.
00:37:50
Speaker
Powell essentially was his own man. You know, he didn't believe in working working together. So he quickly dismissed Johnson's idea about a Negro caucus.
00:38:02
Speaker
Bill Dawson, the black member from Chicago, was very conservative on race issues. He stayed away from race issues. okay So in the archives, there's no response from or from Bill Dawson.
00:38:17
Speaker
I guess Bill Dawson probably simply ignored Dawson's, I mean, Johnson's idea. okay So Powell dismisses it. Dawson ignores it.
00:38:30
Speaker
But Congressman Diggs takes the time to respond. And he wrote a very thoughtful letter to Johnson on his idea of forming a Negro caucus.
00:38:44
Speaker
And essentially what the young Congress member said was that great idea. However, there's only three of us. Perhaps once we grow the numbers, more blacks in the house, perhaps then we might consider forming a caucus, okay?
00:39:06
Speaker
And so a few years later, Diggs would take this up. He would take Johnson's idea and implemented, forming in 1969, a group that he called the Democratic Select Committee.
00:39:25
Speaker
And what Diggs did was he began to have informal meetings with the now six people who were in the House because you had Adam Clayton Powell, Dawson, Diggs.
00:39:36
Speaker
In 1958, Robin Nicks came in from Philadelphia. In 1962, Augusta Hawkins came in from California. And in 1964, John Conyers joined Diggs as the second Black member from Detroit.
00:39:51
Speaker
So now you have, you know, seven or eight members and Diggs would pull those people together informally. and they would meet. and in nineteen sixty nine And in 1969, he would solidify that group into a an organization he called the Democratic so Select Committee.
00:40:11
Speaker
Because in 1969, you had three more members come in, Stokes from Ohio, Shirley Chisholm from Brooklyn, and Bill Clay from Missouri.
00:40:23
Speaker
And so Biggs formed the Democratic Select Committee, and then, Bruce, in 1971, the Democratic Select Committee became the Congressional Black Caucus.
00:40:34
Speaker
This is why I say Biggs was the founder of Democratic of the caucus. Okay? He was one of 13 founding members.
00:40:45
Speaker
It was really Diggs who acted on John Johnson's 1957 proposal. nineteen fifty seven proposal so And it would be the Congressional Black Caucus push toward Nixon that would lead Biggs and other CBC members being on Nixon's enemies list.
00:41:11
Speaker
yeah but Which is funny because I thought I read somewhere that that at one point before the Nixon-Kennedy election that Nixon and Martin Luther King were actually friends. Yes.
00:41:27
Speaker
Yes. You're right. Nixon was the vice president in Eisenhower's administration. Right. And he was considered a moderate president. on civil rights issues. He used to he was the person in administration and that civil rights leaders could could could talk to on civil rights it matters.
00:41:45
Speaker
And what happened is that Nixon will run for, he lost ah the race against John F. Kennedy. Well, he didn't he didn't lose. they That's the one election. 2020 wasn't a stolen election. But that John Kennedy election, because, you know,
00:42:05
Speaker
family is from Illinois, from Chicago. can say. Okay, the okay, the Democratic machine gave the race to JFK. That's what you were telling me, Bruce. That and some some mafia folks, but they, paid that's the reason why Nixon was a little bitter, because they stole that election from a what But yeah go ahead, continue. And so he ran in 1960,
00:42:28
Speaker
And he ran a somewhat moderate race on so on campaign on civil rights. But when he ran again 1968,
00:42:38
Speaker
Nixon took a much more right-wing conservative position on civil rights, on welfare and all these kinds of issues. and And he literally sort of flipped the strip, if you will.
00:42:50
Speaker
and and and and And instead of being a more moderate person on race, he became much more conservative and would use welfare reform and civil rights as a effort to ah to hurt the Democratic Party.
00:43:15
Speaker
Now, the audience is going to be upset. They're going to be upset because we touched on a nugget and we left a cliffhanger. And I thought that he was framed, but you're confirming Mr. Diggs did actually break the law and the the prison sentence and conviction was legitimate.
00:43:36
Speaker
yeah let me let me let me lay this Let me lay this out clearly here.
00:43:42
Speaker
Diggs got involved in a payroll kickback scheme. He increased his secretary's salary and the increased salary came to Diggs, was given to Diggs to help pay his bills.
00:43:57
Speaker
The congressman, and this is not an excuse, I'm just explaining what happened to him. The congressman got into serious financial problems. And he decided the one way to get out of this financial problem is to be involved in this payroll kickback scheme.
00:44:13
Speaker
Let me just add that other members of Congress have been involved in similar kinds of practices. It was just as well known. I laid out in the book that other members of Congress were doing this.
00:44:27
Speaker
Some got in trouble. Some got some like Diggs got convicted and and sent to prison. So Diggs maintained his innocence, yet yet when the when he was on trial, the jury of 11 Blacks and one white, most of the 11 Blacks were women,
00:44:52
Speaker
convicted Diggs of all 29 of the charges that he that he was brought against him. ah He had a very weak defense. um He simply came to trial and said that the secretary voluntarily allowed him to to take the salary. so it it So what what what what what what Diggs would argue was that he was selectively selectively prosecuted.
00:45:19
Speaker
that that because he was an African-American, a black man, that the Justice Department decided to you know to take him throughout all the way to trial and could convict and convict him.
00:45:31
Speaker
But if you read the book, I lay out what happened to Congressman Diggs, and it it's it's a sad story, but it happened, and but it doesn't diminish the impact Diggs had on this country and in Africa.
00:45:49
Speaker
It impacts him personally. It really did. But in terms of his historical contributions, his his conviction of the payroll kickback scheme, I think it's just evidence of his imperfectness and the frailties and weaknesses that all of us have as complex human beings.
00:46:13
Speaker
Yeah, it just sounds like it's just Human. Human. Well, he got it. Well, he said, dear, was this. Again, not excuse. Just explaining it. He got in financial trouble. And being a powerful congress member, he was able, he had access.
00:46:27
Speaker
He saw opportunity to sort of get this money, and and he took it. and And he shouldn't have, obviously. Yeah. If you look at today's generation of black politicians from congressional black caucus to city mayors, the grassroots leaders, where do you still see Diggs's fingerprints?
Legacy in Congress and Coalition Building
00:46:46
Speaker
What parts of the political DNA still live on in today's society? Well, when I, when I, when I, when I look at the current almost 60%
00:46:59
Speaker
Over 60 members of Congressional Black Caucus, I see Biggs' legacy. The group that at once was 13 members has now grown to 62 members.
00:47:12
Speaker
And the CDC, the Congressional Black Caucus, is, I think without question, one of the most powerful Black political organizations in and the nation. When I look and see Congressman Gregory Meeks from New York, he's currently the ranking member of the Foreign Affairs Committee.
00:47:35
Speaker
If the Democrats become the majority, he will become chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Diening was, and he's a black man, Diggs was the first black person to ever serve on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. So when I see Gregory Meeks, and when the Democrats were in charge, he at one point was the the chair.
00:47:55
Speaker
Again, I see Diggs. His legacy is just so phenomenal. Listen, when I get on the airplane and fly,
00:48:06
Speaker
And I see black flight attendants and black pilots. I think about the efforts of Charlie Diggs in the 1950s and 1960s to open up commercial air travel and employment to black Americans.
00:48:24
Speaker
okay I see Diggs. I don't fly anymore and not consider Diggs when i but I get on the airplane now, you see. because of because of Charlie Diggs.
00:48:35
Speaker
When I look out and I see Muriel Bowser, the mayor of Washington, D.C., in the Oval Office next to Donald Trump, I see Diggs and his role as bringing home rule and representation and democracy to Washington, D.C.
00:48:55
Speaker
Okay? So his his legacy is just phenomenal. I got to ask this, because you said Marion Bowser, and you know there you know I live here, so she's and made some decisions that, yeah you know. Oh, yeah. um she's in a tough She's in a tough spot.
00:49:12
Speaker
She is. Tough spot, because I just told you and you your viewers that Congress Congress has exclusive control over the District of Columbia.
00:49:25
Speaker
yeah Okay, she's in a tight spot, man. But go ahead. kick It's called now the Congressional Black Caucus, but originally it was, the you said the name of the the group had Democratic in it.
00:49:38
Speaker
Democratic Select Committee, yes. Democratic Select Committee. Throughout the history of the Congressional Black Caucus, Have there been black Republicans? Because Byron Donalds isn't in the Congressional Black Caucus, is he?
00:49:55
Speaker
Historically, the Republicans, black Republicans, have not really been involved in the CBC. um When the CBC was formed, Bruce, there was a black U.S. congressman from Massachusetts, a Republican.
00:50:12
Speaker
His name was Edward Brooks. Okay, he was a black man. He was in the US Senate. um And Senator Brooks was not a part of the Congressional Black Caucus.
00:50:25
Speaker
If he were, he would have been it would have been one of 14 founding members. Okay? So historically, historically, the black Republicans have have steered away from from the CBC because the CBC has...
00:50:42
Speaker
historically been largely a democratic organization represented by, you know, democratic members. So no, people like the guy from Florida you mentioned would not, would not be a part of the caucus in large part because they don't, you know, align with some of the policy issues that caucus stand for.
00:51:01
Speaker
Yeah. To kind of go away from the political aspect of Mr. Diggs, was there something that you discovered about Diggs, the man, not the congressman, not the activist, that helped you understand his motivations, his flaws, or his humanity in a deeper way?
00:51:21
Speaker
Well, one of the things I would say is that Diggs got along with almost everybody. Mm-hmm. It really is. I talked to many of his colleagues who served with him, and they liked him a lot.
00:51:35
Speaker
So he had the kind of demeanor and and whereby he was able to work with a broad range of people. He was, by nature, a coalition builder.
00:51:47
Speaker
That's the other thing that I sort of came away from, sort of opening my eyes, that here's a guy who really had the capacity to build coalitions. The Congressional Black Caucus, in a way, is a coalition of black members of Congress.
00:52:01
Speaker
TransAfrica, which beings played a big role in creating a coalition of activists interested in bringing down the apartheid regime.
00:52:12
Speaker
Working with civil rights leaders. outside of Congress. He was very, very keen on linking up with entities and organizations outside of Congress so that those folk can put pressure on Congress from the outside.
00:52:31
Speaker
So one of the things I guess taken away and learning about this man. It's just the extent to which his demeanor and the way he carried himself attracted people to him People really liked working with him.
00:52:46
Speaker
And you can't say that about everybody who served serves in Congress. Let me just add that a lot of people could not work with Adam Clayton Powell. many of the Many of the leaders of the Black organization talked about Powell as being unreliable, out for himself.
00:53:05
Speaker
So meant so when when it was time to get could connect with a Congress member, they were more likely to call Diggs than danny Adam Clayton Powell because Diggs was a reliable, serious, policy-oriented Congress member.
00:53:22
Speaker
There's no question about that. Yeah. So we've talked a lot about Mr. Diggs' life. You have detailed so much about his life and career in your book, House of Diggs.
00:53:38
Speaker
What do you want not only the readers of your book, but the audience of the show to walk away with thinking, not just about his work, well but about the story of Black political struggle and the part and the progress in America?
Reflections on Civil Rights Impact
00:53:55
Speaker
Yeah. i the the The House of Diggs, this bargantry I've written on Congressman Diggs, really gives the reader a close-up view or many of the important events in our nation around civil rights from 1955 to 1980. You're sitting there looking at what's happening with the Emmett Till situation.
00:54:21
Speaker
You're there working, he's there working with ah well Dr. King around passage of the 64 Civil Rights Act, passage of 1965 Voting Rights Act.
00:54:32
Speaker
voting rights yeah Diggs, we didn't mention this, but Diggs was a veteran of World War II. So going through Diggs, you can see the challenges that Black military men, discrimination they face during World War II.
00:54:49
Speaker
And then of course, you get to see the movement, the civil rights movement in this country spread, not only here in this country, but to Southern Africa, where we're Blacks now in the 80s and 90s are mobilizing to help in Southern southern Africa.
00:55:09
Speaker
So what you see through the life of Biggs is a gentleman who's key in many of these major, major things.
00:55:20
Speaker
historical periods in American, Black American, Black American life. so So you you get a close-up look and at American political life from the 1950s until his resignation Congress in 1980. Wow.
00:55:37
Speaker
nineteen eighty wow Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Marion Orr, author of the House of Diggs, and once again, a graduate from the University of Maryland College Park. That's right. Terrapins. That's right.
00:55:51
Speaker
Dr. Orr, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and giving us a lesson, not only in American history, not only in black history, not only in American politics, but also in black politics and African politics. Yes, yes. I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and enlightening us and and engaging in this very great conversation and helping us grow knowledge about more of this country than we knew before. Well, thank you, Bruce, for having me on. and I really enjoyed it. You asked some really, really great questions. I appreciate it.
00:56:31
Speaker
Well, thank you. You know, I like to give myself a little pat on the back. That's that University of Maryland education. You did. Thank you, sir. like Thank you. You and your audience for but listening. It was my pleasure.
00:56:43
Speaker
Man, that was a hell of a conversation. and And like I said, I'm a historian. Man, I knew nothing about Charles Diggs. Nothing. I'm actually kind of embarrassed.
00:56:55
Speaker
to two To interview Dr. Orr and of and to do the research before the interview and to learn about Charles Diggs,
00:57:06
Speaker
And to be a historian where my wheelhouse is literally World War II to the Clinton years, that's that's my bag. And to not know who Charles Diggs is, is an indictment, not only on me, right, as a historian, an indictment of our education system, not only middle school, high school, but also in college.
00:57:33
Speaker
It's an indictment of us as Americans to not know how consequential Mr. Diggs was in American history.
00:57:45
Speaker
Dr. Orr's work reminds us that history isn't just a set of names in a textbook. It's a living map of how we got here. Charles Diggs wasn't perfect.
00:57:56
Speaker
None of our heroes are. But he was bold enough to challenge the system from the inside, when the inside wasn't built for him. He stood at the crossroads of civil rights and political power.
00:58:09
Speaker
And his story forces us to ask, what do we owe to those who open the doors we now walk through? If you wanna dig deeper into that question, and I really think you should, go pick up Dr. Orr's new book, House of Diggs, The Rise and Fall of America's Most Consequential Black Congressman.
00:58:28
Speaker
It's not just about one man's journey. It's about the cost and courage of leadership in America. I wanna thank Dr. Orr for his time, for his scholarship, and for bringing Charles Diggs' story back into the national conversation.
00:58:45
Speaker
And for everyone listening, I want you to stay curious. want you stay honest. And I want you to keep asking those questions that sometimes won't ever get asked and search for the answers to the questions that don't get asked, but that need to be asked.
00:59:05
Speaker
Charles Dix is an important figure that should not be forgotten. And I feel it's the work of Dr. Orr. as well as Bruce Anthony, the host of unsolicited perspectives to make sure that he is remembered freedom and celebrated for all the work that he's done. over cycle stays this I want to thank you for listening.
00:59:33
Speaker
I want to thank you for watching and until next time, as always, I'll holla.
00:59:42
Speaker
That was a hell of a show. Thank you for rocking with us here on Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. Now, before you go, don't forget to follow, subscribe, like, comment, and share our podcast wherever you're listening or watching it to it. Pass it along to your friends. If you enjoy it, that means the people that you rock will will enjoy it also.
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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