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"Dustings" 1-25: 2024 Snow Industry Survey Results
641 Plays25 days ago
The guys welcome back Jordan Smith of Storm Equipment to take us through the results from Storm's 2024 Snow Industry Contractor Survey. This survey was completed by over 400 snow contractors from 23 states and 3 provinces in Canada!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Winter Hiatus Recap
00:00:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right, Snow Jobs Nation, here we go. After a winter hiatus, we are back bringing you another Dustings. Dustings 1 of 2025. As always, I'm Steve.
00:00:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
And you know who's with me?
00:00:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, that's right. Jeremy Lindstrom in the house, as always. And if we're doing dustings, then you know who's joining us as well. That's Mr. Jordan Smith of Storm Equipment and VSI by Boss.
00:01:10
The SnowJobs Podcast
Jordan, how are you?
00:01:12
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:01:12
Jordan Smith
I'm good, man. I've missed you guys.
00:01:13
RICK JAMES
What's up?
00:01:14
Jordan Smith
How you been?
00:01:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
oh Been good.
00:01:16
RICK JAMES
Doing good, buddy.
00:01:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
Been good. Yeah, it's been a while.
00:01:19
Jordan Smith
yeah it's been a long time.
00:01:19
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:01:20
Jordan Smith
That's
00:01:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
Winter hiatus over. Back with the dustings.
00:01:24
Jordan Smith
right.
00:01:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
good and everybody's been asking we just keep telling them wow we took the winter off everybody's too busy during in the winter but
00:01:24
Jordan Smith
oh
00:01:30
Jordan Smith
Yeah, I got ah got a bunch of messages asking if I got fired.
00:01:31
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:01:32
Jordan Smith
and i said, I don't think I got fired. if It's been busy. haven't heard you for a while. They said, I'm like, yeah, it has been a while, hasn't it?
00:01:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
it ah the this winter was tough to even get our weeklies done it was uh it was all constant it was constant so and everybody else a lot of places were getting snow so we were having trouble meshing up with guests
00:01:38
RICK JAMES
It's been a while.
00:01:39
Jordan Smith
I'm excited to be back.
00:01:40
RICK JAMES
It's been while.
00:01:40
Jordan Smith
I'm excited.
00:01:48
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:01:52
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:01:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like we had a couple of guests that we tried to get on and we just, they were canceling Canada and
Impact of Low Snowfall on Industries
00:01:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
you don't blame them. You know, they, they're getting snow. That's priority. Like we can talk snow anytime.
00:02:02
Jordan Smith
Well, seemed like you had snow every day, Steve.
00:02:02
The SnowJobs Podcast
So, uh, we had a,
00:02:03
RICK JAMES
Not me.
00:02:05
Jordan Smith
No, not you, Jeremy. Not me either.
00:02:06
The SnowJobs Podcast
We had a good winter. We really we had a really Midwestern-style winter where we got a lot of small events, but the numbers of events were... God, I think we were... I got to look at the numbers. I haven't even done the numbers yet. I even build haven't really finished billing for February yet.
00:02:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's... ah it's um it was It was a lot. But yeah, we did we did good. We didn't have any of our normal big dumps, no Nor'easters. I think our largest total was nine inches. i was our We never broke double digits, which hasn't happened in the last seven years here, that we didn't have one storm of double digits.
00:02:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
But yeah, it was good.
00:02:39
Jordan Smith
It's
00:02:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
The guys were happy. They got a lot of hours. yeah It was good.
00:02:45
Jordan Smith
awesome. Yeah, we yeah we we wish we had a little bit of that here, but yeah, it was slow.
00:02:47
RICK JAMES
I was free all winter.
00:02:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah Yeah, you guys, that's two in a row.
00:02:54
RICK JAMES
house was free. I was of always got to work around your schedule, Steve.
00:02:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
like I understand.
00:02:57
RICK JAMES
Always around your schedule. I was free all winter.
00:03:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
I apologize. You know, not much I can do. Hey, listen, when we started this, it was all about you. You were getting snow every other day.
00:03:08
RICK JAMES
yeah I know. I know. Tables have turned. Tables have turned.
00:03:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah the tables have turned. shit.
00:03:15
Jordan Smith
i'm sure I'm sure you guys have talked about it, but it it is extremely rare for us in the upper Midwest to go two years in a row with that little snow. It just it just doesn't it just doesn't happen.
00:03:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
Crazy. Insane.
00:03:25
Jordan Smith
It just does not happen. It never has happened.
00:03:27
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:03:27
Jordan Smith
I've only done snow for, i guess it's i guess it's been almost 20 years, but it's never happened in the 20 years I've done it.
00:03:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
What does that do to like, what does that do to industries out there that rely on snow so heavily?
00:03:36
RICK JAMES
Yeah. It's crazy.
00:03:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like I know if Vermont, like around us, if Vermont doesn't get snow, it's tough on that whole, every all the the ecosystem around all the ski slopes, the snowmobile trails, everything suffers.
00:03:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like how what does that do to Minnesota?
00:03:53
Jordan Smith
Yeah, I've seen a lot of it with, I mean, obviously snow industry, but but even more than that, I think um the ski places are okay because they make their own snow. ah You know, we don't get enough powder here to to not make artificial snow, but it's really like the snowmobile, ice fishing, winter to recreational industries, a lot of like up Northern Minnesota, a lot of snowshoeing and stuff.
00:04:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:04:15
Jordan Smith
And that like, if they can't do that stuff, then they're not staying at the resorts and the cabins and Those places already have a tough time making ends meet.
00:04:20
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:04:22
Jordan Smith
So I know it's been really tough on them. I i know we, the state had like a ah drought ah emergency disaster loan program last year after last winter for all the businesses that couldn't do ice fishing or snowmobiling all that kind of stuff.
00:04:36
Jordan Smith
And they're going to have to do it again this year because they did it last year. They set a precedent, right?
00:04:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
00:04:40
Jordan Smith
But those businesses that just, they've had, they've had nothing.
00:04:41
RICK JAMES
right
00:04:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
Wow. that's yeah That's hard to imagine you guys having two down years in a row like that.
00:04:46
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:04:50
The SnowJobs Podcast
But I mean, Jeremy, too, right? Jerry, Jay, you've been under average two years in a row now, too.
00:04:56
RICK JAMES
Oh, yeah. Yeah. We used we just hit 20 inches last Sunday. So, yeah, it's ah so tight.
00:05:03
The SnowJobs Podcast
Doubled up Fargo. We doubled up Fargo this year. yeah We were right on, right on.
00:05:08
RICK JAMES
be proud of yourself.
00:05:10
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, yeah. Well, i mean listen, we're like, you can set your watch to us. We're 40 inches. We're right on that mark, give or take two inches every year. That's, you know, we could have those rare ones where we get the mega nor'easters and it jacks the total way higher. But, you know, on a normal winter, that's right where we are and we keep hitting it.
00:05:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
So crazy. But we're glad to have you back, Jordan. It's been too long.
00:05:32
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
Storm Equipment's 2024 Survey Insights
00:05:33
Jordan Smith
Thanks guys. Glad to be back.
00:05:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
No problem. So, guys and gals, tonight, Jordan is here. He's going to break down the results of Storm Equipment's 2024 industry survey. all right Storm, as you know ah you know, they're always trying to push the industry forward, get us the information we need to make snow decisions, spending decisions, et cetera.
00:05:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
you know ah They spend a lot of time and energy speaking to snow contractors. um Big, small, everything in between from all corners of the snow pushing universe there. um You know, they compile all this info for us and we're excited to have him here and he's going to give us the results. So Jordan, man, the floor is yours, bud.
00:06:08
Jordan Smith
Yeah, so this is something we've done the last couple of years. So, you know, just to be transparent, this data is from last year. So it's it's from 2024.
00:06:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
hmm.
00:06:17
Jordan Smith
So some of it's maybe a little bit out of date, but I think it's still very representative of the industry. And none of the questions were super specific about the most recent winter. They were more generic.
00:06:28
Jordan Smith
Just to kind of frame it up, I mean, obviously what we did for those that don't know is last year we put out the survey. Again, we're collecting the data for the sake of moving the industry forward, understanding the industry so we can serve it better.
00:06:40
Jordan Smith
um and And by sharing it, I think we give some insight into, you know, this podcast is all about letting people know how other people do things and what other people are up to and and that kind of stuff. I think it's just very relatable to hear some of the direct feedback and hear what type of people responded to this. So I kind of wanted to kick off with just kind of who the people that responded to this were.
00:07:03
Jordan Smith
So on the survey, we had ah just over 400 responses. which doesn't sound like a lot, but in the size industry we are, that would be very much a representative sample.
00:07:14
Jordan Smith
I don't know where this stat comes from, um but I saw you know there's professional companies that do these surveys and they do it for manufacturers and that kind of stuff. And these professional companies consider a representative sample for our industry to be 250 people.
00:07:29
Jordan Smith
So we almost doubled that number up, which is cool.
00:07:31
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:07:31
Jordan Smith
So I think the data should show, you know, really a good representative sample of the industry.
00:07:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
yep
00:07:38
Jordan Smith
And just to kind of lay it out, um, The people represented that filled out the survey cover 23 states in the US s and three provinces in Canada. I didn't count the number of cities or zip codes, but obviously there's a ton of them. But 23 states, three provinces in Canada. So really a ah really solid snow belt representation in North America.
00:08:00
Jordan Smith
um Just a few high level stats to break down even further who these people are and what their businesses look like. So the first question we asked, um besides what people's names and companies were, was what is your what's the size of your fleet?
00:08:15
Jordan Smith
um So in theory, if this is a representative sample, this should represent a majority of the industry. So of those people, 27% responded that they have between zero and five units in their fleet. So that could be trucks, tractors, loaders.
00:08:32
Jordan Smith
um Would not be sidewalk equipment, but what's the size of your heavy equipment and truck fleet? Zero to five units. So that's 27% of people responding. 25% they're in the six to 12 range. And just under 15% said they're in the 12 to 20 unit range.
00:08:45
Jordan Smith
and just under fifteen percent said they're in the twelve to twenty unit range And then 33.5% said they're 20 plus. So maybe one thing to take away from that is 20 plus is a pretty big sample.
00:09:00
Jordan Smith
To be honest, I didn't expect that many people with that big a companies to respond to this because the way we incentivized
00:09:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:09:06
Jordan Smith
ah people to fill this out is we gave away a bunch of stuff, right? We gave away a storm chasing episode. We gave away a plow, gave away paid travel to Simon. We just did a bunch of stuff. And I thought maybe that that would attract smaller people more than bigger companies. But obviously in this case, lot of bigger companies responded. That's why that sample size is so big.
00:09:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, rich people are cheap.
00:09:26
Jordan Smith
on the
00:09:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
They want free shit.
00:09:28
Jordan Smith
Yeah, I guess so. That must be it.
00:09:30
RICK JAMES
that she
00:09:30
Jordan Smith
Must be it. So Pretty big chunk there is 20 plus, I think in in hindsight, it probably should have been like 20 to 30 and then 30 to 50 then 50 plus. That probably have represented a little bit better, but gives you an idea, right?
00:09:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
yep
00:09:45
RICK JAMES
Right.
00:09:45
Jordan Smith
um The next thing we asked is how people's routes and sites were set up. Again, I think this is a good relatable stat to you know for people to understand what the rest the industry looks like.
00:09:59
Jordan Smith
So the first metric was that their fleet is primarily dedicated to sites. So this means you have a job site and it's big enough where you're justifying just leaving a loader there, leaving trucks there, leaving whatever there.
00:10:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
What percent was that?
00:10:12
Jordan Smith
So 20...
00:10:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
I'm sorry.
00:10:13
Jordan Smith
I didn't say sorry. So the first that it's 20%.
00:10:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, Gotcha.
00:10:16
Jordan Smith
So 20% of companies responding said that in their business, all of their fleet is dedicated to sites.
00:10:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
Gotcha.
00:10:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
Gotcha.
00:10:25
Jordan Smith
The next stat is that the fleet is primarily dispatched from home base um and they they go out to different sites and routes. So that'd be like what you what you what you guys both do, right? That's what you guys mostly do is you park your stuff at home and you take it to the sites.
00:10:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. Yep.
00:10:37
RICK JAMES
yeah ye
00:10:40
Jordan Smith
So that was 41% of people said that that's what they do. And then the last one was just a mix of we have an equal mix of both. And that was the last 38%. thirty eight percent So 20% dedicated to sites, just over 40% dispatch from home base, and then just under 40% says they do a mix of both.
00:10:59
Jordan Smith
To me, that seems about right. That's kind of what we see in our local markets too. You know, you're going to have your bigger sites, bigger bigger contractors that are dedicating more stuff to sites, but for the most part, you're seeing a lot of companies dispatching from home base.
00:11:14
Jordan Smith
They're sort of servicing a smaller, tighter area, and they're driving their equipment to sites, whether it be trucks or loaders.
00:11:22
Jordan Smith
So then the next one.
00:11:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
So basically units or less in their fleet. of that survey is twelve units or less in their fleet
00:11:30
Jordan Smith
Yes.
00:11:30
The SnowJobs Podcast
Wow.
00:11:32
Jordan Smith
Yeah. And I think.
00:11:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
that That makes sense. I mean, that that I think that makes sense. That's definitely, that would be the demographic around me.
00:11:39
Jordan Smith
Yep.
00:11:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
So that's interesting, though.
00:11:40
Jordan Smith
I don't remember. i don't remember where I saw it, but um might have been a Simon survey years ago. i think it showed like.
00:11:50
Jordan Smith
75% of companies in the snow industry have three employees or less or something like that, or maybe it was five employees or less. Obviously, I think that gets a little bit skewed by owner operators who just have a truck and a plow and they call themselves a snow company, right?
00:11:58
RICK JAMES
I believe that.
00:11:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, a little bit.
00:12:05
Jordan Smith
But I think in general, it's it's a it's an industry with a lot of one-man, two-man shows.
00:12:14
RICK JAMES
we have We have quite a few, or not quite a few, we have guys like that that are, you know, some on with two or three pieces and that's all they have or whatever, you know, so I suppose that counts, you know, so.
00:12:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm.
00:12:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, makes sense. Hmm.
00:12:26
Jordan Smith
So then the next one, again, this one's maybe not quite as interesting, but just to give you an idea of the mix here. ah The next one was where are your de-icing materials dispatched from? This goes almost perfectly in line with people that are dispatching equipment from home base dedicated to site.
00:12:41
Jordan Smith
um But 72% of people dispatch their de-icing materials from home base.
00:12:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure.
00:12:48
Jordan Smith
So they have their salt bin at home base or their liquid at home base.
00:12:53
Jordan Smith
16% have site dedicated salt or brine. So that almost perfectly aligns with the amount of people that dispatch their equipment offsite. It would make sense if they're dispatching equipment offsite, they would also have their de-icing materials.
00:13:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
sure
00:13:05
Jordan Smith
sitting on the site.
00:13:06
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:13:07
Jordan Smith
And then the last 12% have mix both. So some of it's from home base, some is dedicated to sites. Then just the last stat here, I'll kind of rattle through it so we don't spend a ton of time on this.
00:13:19
Jordan Smith
thought this was kind of interesting. I think it gives a pretty good cross section of the industry representing like where people are working. So the next one was what type of sites do you primarily service?
00:13:33
Jordan Smith
And broke it down into six categories. So the first one is single family residential, and that was 9%. So 9% people responding. primarily service single family residential homes. 13% was multifamily residential. So that would be like homeowners associations, condo associations, apartment buildings, that kind of stuff.
00:13:56
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:13:57
Jordan Smith
23% are servicing small retail. So that would be like retail of five acres or less.
00:14:05
Jordan Smith
13% said they're servicing large retail, which would be like, you know, Walmart super center or a shopping mall, that kind of stuff.
00:14:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:14:14
Jordan Smith
22% are focused on industrial warehousing and data centers.
00:14:20
Jordan Smith
11% on healthcare and hospitals, and then the last 9% on corporate campuses. So pretty pretty even spread there.
00:14:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:14:28
Jordan Smith
I mean, if if you take retail as a whole, 23% plus 13%, that's your highest overall percentage, which makes sense, right?
00:14:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:14:29
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:14:37
Jordan Smith
You drive down main drag and you mostly see mix small large retail.
00:14:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure.
00:14:41
Jordan Smith
So that makes sense. um I was a little surprised how high the and industrial number was.
00:14:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Well, I mean, we, we talked about that on, I think you're either you're enduring snow business ones or the, the last state of the industry one where you said that industrial, ah the the industrial stuff like the Amazons and the large centers, that's what's being built rapidly the most.
00:14:49
RICK JAMES
Yeah, it was too, yeah.
00:15:08
Jordan Smith
Yep.
00:15:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
So it makes sense.
00:15:09
Jordan Smith
There's the most,
00:15:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
There there's more places to service.
00:15:09
RICK JAMES
Yeah. Yep.
00:15:13
Jordan Smith
there's the most, uh, capital in in the real estate development world. The most capital is being put into current and future development of industrial warehousing, dry goods warehousing.
00:15:25
Jordan Smith
Um, data centers are huge. Obviously data is running everything now. Um, and then I think the new one, the new one, we might see a lot of coming up here. guys still hear me? Sorry.
00:15:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Yep. Yep.
00:15:39
RICK JAMES
ye
00:15:39
Jordan Smith
Oh, weird. Sorry, we got really glitchy there.
00:15:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
yep
00:15:42
Jordan Smith
um The new one that we might see a lot of is gonna be, again, more more of the data centers. ah But then I think also potentially, depending on what happens with all these tariffs and stuff, like we might see a bunch of manufacturing come back to the US too. You you never know.
00:15:59
Jordan Smith
I mean, that stuff's all up in limbo right now.
00:16:00
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:16:01
Jordan Smith
We don't know if it's actually gonna stick or if it's not, but you keep seeing news headlines like these companies from overseas are investing talking about investing back in the US in manufacturing because they wanna avoid having to pay these tariffs.
00:16:13
The SnowJobs Podcast
Avoid the tariffs.
00:16:13
Jordan Smith
so
00:16:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:16:15
Jordan Smith
And that's probably years and years away, but it'll be interesting to see if that affects that as well. But yes, generally speaking, your anything that supports e-commerce or data is going to be your biggest growth area, which you know for 22% now, maybe if we read redo this in five years, it's 40%. It could go up pretty quick.
00:16:34
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm.
00:16:35
RICK JAMES
right
00:16:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
Interesting.
00:16:38
Jordan Smith
but So that's kind of the cross section of
Contractor Commitment and Industry Challenges
00:16:40
Jordan Smith
who we surveyed. and I think, you know, maybe should have said this at the beginning, but the idea behind this episode and the next couple we'll do on dustings is this, this was a pretty long survey.
00:16:50
Jordan Smith
Like, I mean, if you actually filled the whole thing out, I think you guys both filled it out. Like it was pretty in depth.
00:16:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
It was.
00:16:56
Jordan Smith
um So I really just,
00:16:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
I've taken college exams that weren't that long.
00:16:57
RICK JAMES
Yeah,
00:16:58
RICK JAMES
it was good.
00:17:01
Jordan Smith
well, we were giving away like 50 grand with this stuff. We had to get some value out of it.
00:17:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
I know.
00:17:04
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:17:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
We didn't win shit, though.
00:17:06
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:17:06
Jordan Smith
Sorry.
00:17:06
RICK JAMES
Yeah. I don't think we're eligible.
00:17:08
Jordan Smith
Sorry.
00:17:10
Jordan Smith
I don't know. It was random. So you never know.
00:17:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
I even did the essay. Sorry.
00:17:14
Jordan Smith
I know you did. It was awesome. You guys crushed it.
00:17:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah sorry
00:17:19
Jordan Smith
But the idea with this is, you know, we're not going to go through the whole thing at once because it would take four hours and no one wants to listen to me talk for four hours. So we kind of, I broke it into kind of four episodes. So,
00:17:31
Jordan Smith
like those are the stats, those are the first seven items on the survey. There's 16 more, um but we're not gonna cover all those now. So those are the stats I'll stick with here. And then when we do the future episodes, we'll we'll dive into some of those.
00:17:45
Jordan Smith
um
00:17:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
Cool.
00:17:46
RICK JAMES
Yeah, definitely.
00:17:47
Jordan Smith
But just kind of based on these, you know, these are real generic basic questions to get a cross section of who we're talking to. i just wanted to go over some of the key trends and talking points. So essentially,
00:17:59
Jordan Smith
I took the responses from everyone and I found the most common trends related to just the snow industry in general, what frustrations people have, um what they're excited about, and then just kind of key talking points. And then maybe we'll even throw in some actual quotes. We'll leave names out because i didn't get permission to use people's names of the quotes, but maybe even throw in a few of the quotes that were in the survey because some of them are pretty funny.
00:18:27
Jordan Smith
So I don't think any of these will be terribly surprising. But again, I think it's always nice to break down like things that you think are a trend or you think that are an actual issue and and then to take this size data set and prove that this actually is a major issue.
00:18:35
RICK JAMES
Thank
00:18:43
Jordan Smith
ah So the first key trend that I thought was a really good thing is that despite you know going into this survey, some really tough winners for a lot of people, i think I think going into the survey was some of the tougher winters throughout the US that and had happened, especially in some of the bigger markets. But despite that, ah most contractors that filled this out said they're still all in on snow.
00:19:08
Jordan Smith
It's extremely core to their business and it's becoming a bigger and bigger focus each year. It's becoming less ah less of an afterthought, less of a necessary evil and more of like something they're actually excited about. And that's a profit center for their business.
00:19:22
Jordan Smith
And i think I think if nothing else proves that, I mean, the fact that you guys have had a wildly successful podcast built around the snow industry should tell you something that people are are pretty engaged and excited about snow and about the industry, right?
00:19:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's a good thing.
00:19:25
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:19:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
That is definitely true. a lot more people than I would have thought.
00:19:38
RICK JAMES
Right.
00:19:41
Jordan Smith
Yeah. Yeah, so so any of these key trends I read off, that means it showed up in in the survey at least 40 times.
00:19:43
RICK JAMES
I'm growing.
00:19:47
Jordan Smith
So at least 40 people out of the 400 said something similar, specifically what I said, or so or similar to that saying we're all in on snow. It's a key part of our business. We're excited about it. Bigger focus every year.
00:20:00
Jordan Smith
So thought that was cool.
00:20:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm. That is.
00:20:03
Jordan Smith
Another key trend, less positive one, but not surprising. People are worried about price pressure, underbidding and brokers.
00:20:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, that's the big three.
00:20:15
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:20:15
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:20:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
Well, if you wanted to throw insurance in there, it's probably the big four.
00:20:16
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:20:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
But, yeah, that's definitely three out of the top four.
00:20:20
Jordan Smith
Insurance is coming.
00:20:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:20:23
RICK JAMES
It's sure. Yeah, that's on there.
00:20:24
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:20:25
RICK JAMES
It's on there.
00:20:26
Jordan Smith
Right. It's kind of funny because obviously I listened to majority of your episodes and and I think as we read through this stuff, it's pretty much the stuff you guys talk about on a weekly basis. So I think that just pretty much justifies the fact that the the guests you're having on and the people you're talking to are representing the industry correctly.
00:20:45
Jordan Smith
um next Next one, and and actually i think maybe this is the one that has shifted the most since the survey was filled out, but the next one was labor shortages.
00:20:46
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sounds good.
00:20:56
Jordan Smith
um I heard a lot less people, at least people I talked to this past year that said they had major labor shortages and concerns. What i mean what have you guys heard on that the past 12 months?
00:21:10
The SnowJobs Podcast
um
00:21:11
RICK JAMES
um
00:21:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
I don't remember anybody necessarily saying they couldn't find anybody.
00:21:16
RICK JAMES
I don't either.
00:21:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
I know we haven't had that problem.
00:21:17
RICK JAMES
i mean, it's...
00:21:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
we We seem to have guys coming out the woodwork.
00:21:22
RICK JAMES
Yeah, we don't have that.
00:21:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
How about you, Jay?
00:21:22
RICK JAMES
I mean, we have we have guys, but, yeah, we have guys, but it's, you know, it's been such a hit and miss winter again. So, you know, like this last storm we had, this last storm we had, I had everything full, you know, the night before.
00:21:30
Jordan Smith
That makes it tougher.
00:21:35
RICK JAMES
And I call guys in them in the morning and, you know, a third of them slept in or didn't seem to care, so they didn't come. So, which was, it was a Sunday push.
00:21:43
Jordan Smith
Yeah. and I think it's a little different when you talk about disengagement.
00:21:46
RICK JAMES
and
00:21:47
Jordan Smith
Like when you have a bad winner, you just get disengaged employees because, you know,
00:21:49
RICK JAMES
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:52
Jordan Smith
they're ah They're called in only when it snows and when it doesn't snow off and they become disengaged, right?
00:21:52
RICK JAMES
They're just kind of checked out.
00:21:56
Jordan Smith
I think this was more around like people saying, I can't physically hire people.
00:21:57
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:22:01
RICK JAMES
Find people.
00:22:01
Jordan Smith
And I think what I heard a lot in like specifically 2022, 23 was people couldn't even offer enough money to get people to say it was worth getting out of bed. But I think part of that had to do with all the fricking money we printed and gave away during COVID, right?
00:22:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
Free money Yep Yeah that's all gone
00:22:17
RICK JAMES
Yep. Yep.
00:22:19
Jordan Smith
Right. So I think that's maybe where this has shifted a little bit.
00:22:20
RICK JAMES
I mean,
00:22:21
Jordan Smith
And I'm not saying there's no labor shortage, but I did hear from a lot of people like, oh, this is the first year that my sidewalk crews are fully staffed. This is the first year I have enough shovelers, the first year I have enough operators.
00:22:32
Jordan Smith
Like, I just haven't heard that for a couple of years. So I think that one's maybe shifted a little bit.
00:22:36
The SnowJobs Podcast
I think that's accurate.
00:22:37
RICK JAMES
I still think it's – I still think it's – I mean, just a little bit.
00:22:39
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, you don't? You disagree, Jay?
00:22:42
RICK JAMES
I still think it's hard. we're We're still having some trouble getting – you know. But once again, you get guys hired, but it's – are they going to stay engaged?
00:22:53
RICK JAMES
I guess I'm just looking at that point of view, which I probably shouldn't be. ah That's not really what talking about. But, I mean, I heard some other guys out further east from me saying they're having tough time finding guys again this year.
00:23:04
RICK JAMES
So, I don't know.
00:23:05
Jordan Smith
Sure. So maybe it's still an issue then. I just, I know locally here, i mean, I guess maybe I'll just use our snow business as an example. We have really struggled to get sidewalk guys until this year.
00:23:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
Thank you.
00:23:16
Jordan Smith
And this year we actually had excess, which just hasn't happened for a long time. Not, not since pre COVID.
00:23:21
RICK JAMES
Nice. Wow.
00:23:22
Jordan Smith
So maybe it was just situational for us.
00:23:23
RICK JAMES
well
00:23:24
Jordan Smith
And maybe I just talked to so people who didn't have the issue. I just, I just didn't hear it as much this year as I have in the past. I don't think that means it doesn't exist. I think it probably still does exist in some areas.
00:23:35
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:23:37
Jordan Smith
And the last key trend, um ah the last key trends, I should say, is rising insurance costs that continues to squeeze margins. You mentioned that one, Steve.
00:23:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:23:48
Jordan Smith
And then just general frustration with low industry standards and un uneducated competitors.
00:23:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:23:56
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:23:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
That sounds about right.
00:24:02
Jordan Smith
so So I think along with that, you know like I said, not none of this stuff is earth shattering, like nothing came out of this like, wow, I never thought about that. But um I think it's just good to, again, it's good to to to back up what we think we know with actual representative samples.
00:24:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
Absolutely.
00:24:20
Jordan Smith
and then And then from that, just ah you know a few talking points and we'll get to a few of the the quotes from from the surveys that got filled out. So the first talking point that comes out of the key trends is, I think I know the answer, but for for feedback from you guys, like, are we undervalued as an industry?
Is the Snow Industry Undervalued?
00:24:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
No, this is Jeremy's baby.
00:24:43
Jordan Smith
how how much How much undervalued do you think we are? you think we' You think we're at half the value we should be? Or you think we're 20% too low? Like, what's your gut on that?
00:24:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm. I ah go ahead, Jay. You got something good.
00:24:57
RICK JAMES
to 50%, undervalued, honestly, for what we do and for what the expectations are and the timing of everything. mean, that's my opinion, I guess.
00:25:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
I think it's very customer dependent. I think it depends on the type of customers you're servicing and what their business is or what their needs are. ah Customers with high serviceability needs, I don't think we're undervalued at all. i think they're willing to pay what we need to to make on it, and they're great.
00:25:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's the... The customers that don't care if they have four inches when they open on the pavement, they don't care if their people slip and fall or their customers slip and fall, or they're just not educated to know that they shouldn't ah but wouldn't want that.
00:25:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah But I think it's very customer dependent. I think overall, yes, I think the snow industry is seen as a necessary evil. um And I think they we don't get enough... I don't want to say credit. That's not the right word, but we don't get it. Like Jeremy says, we don't get enough respect for what we actually bring to the table. And like I think I said it on another episode, you want to teach people how important we are, have every snow contractor in a certain area just say, hey, next storm, guys, we're taking the night off. Nobody show up.
00:26:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
but
00:26:14
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:26:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
And you see things grind to a halt, then, you know, then you would then you would say, OK, yeah, we actually need these guys.
00:26:16
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:26:21
The SnowJobs Podcast
But I think because we're so most of the people in snow are so dedicated and so proactive that you never so you rarely see problems develop.
00:26:23
RICK JAMES
We're in sharing. We're in sharing.
00:26:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
Everybody's just so used to, oh, it wasn't that bad a storm. wasn't that bad a storm because you had a snow company on site two hours before it started pre-treating and then servicing it throughout the flakes so that when you showed up a half an hour after it ended, it was already black pavement.
00:26:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
it wasn't very It wasn't a very bad storm for you. you know So I think because we're so proactive and so good at what we do, a lot of us, that you know we make it hard for them to understand the value.
00:26:51
Jordan Smith
yeah.
00:26:59
Jordan Smith
yeah I agree with that I think those are all points that that were in my mind, I think the only other thing that I know we've talked about on some of our previous dustings but. The amount of capital that we invest to to provide these services is crazy.
00:27:17
Jordan Smith
Like, like think about the bill out rate for what's the average plumber?
00:27:18
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm.
00:27:23
Jordan Smith
175 bucks an hour, something like that.
00:27:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, easily.
00:27:26
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:27:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:27:27
Jordan Smith
And I'm not discrediting a plumber. Like they probably have what? Five grand worth of tools in their, in their van or whatever they drive.
00:27:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
Easily. Yep.
00:27:35
Jordan Smith
Okay, so five gram worth of tools for $175 an hour. We got guys out there running $100,000 pickup truck and plow setups charging $80 an hour.
00:27:47
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. If that.
00:27:48
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:27:49
Jordan Smith
That is insane.
00:27:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah that's It's a horrible investment.
00:27:53
Jordan Smith
It doesn't make any sense.
00:27:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
It doesn't.
00:27:56
Jordan Smith
and that And to me, like that' that's the definition of undervalued is like people won't bat an eye at a plumber with a blowtorch and a crimping tool at 175 bucks an hour.
00:27:56
RICK JAMES
It doesn't.
00:27:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah
00:27:57
RICK JAMES
its
00:28:08
Jordan Smith
But all of a sudden you're at 175 an hour in a pickup and it's like, whoa, that's double the other guy. Like, how is that possible?
00:28:15
RICK JAMES
yep
00:28:16
Jordan Smith
That's just nuts to me.
00:28:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
Well, because I think people can deal with having snow on their parking lot or driveway a lot more readily than they can deal with their toilet bowl overflowing and flooding their house.
00:28:28
Jordan Smith
I guess.
00:28:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
know it like I think it's just perception. Honestly, i think that's what it is like.
00:28:32
Jordan Smith
guess.
00:28:33
RICK JAMES
oh that's yeah that's true but i mean these are these are the same people i that i'll bitch about an inch of snow on their lot too though one but they don't want to pay the you know pay the pay us what they what we deserve too so
00:28:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's like.
00:28:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
it It's like if you were going to be a doctor, don't be a regular MD specialized, either be an optometrist or a dentist, because people are not going to mess around with their eyesight or when their teeth are hurting everything else.
00:28:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
They'll put off for months, weeks, whatever, to not go to a doctor and pay a doctor. But you know, it's that it's yeah, but you're right.
00:29:07
Jordan Smith
Yeah. I think
00:29:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's a horrible investment. I don't know why we do it. It's so stupid.
00:29:12
Jordan Smith
it's, well, yeah, I mean, it's, it's crazy, but but I think to Jeremy's point, like, I think some people might dispute like, oh, 40, 50%, it's not that much, but I think that's,
00:29:14
RICK JAMES
and So silly.
00:29:25
Jordan Smith
problem as an aggregate, that's probably right. that Now that doesn't mean everyone is off by that much. I think there's guys that are pricing correctly and they're making great margin.
00:29:30
RICK JAMES
No, no.
00:29:35
Jordan Smith
Like you can make a lot of money in this business, but there's just there's just way too high of a percentage that aren't. And when we say undervalued as an industry, that doesn't mean everyone is, it just means too many are.
00:29:46
Jordan Smith
um But I do also think you could argue that unless the industry gets to a point where it's if not a seasonal contract model, at least a retainer model, like we're still gambling every single year.
00:29:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. 100%.
00:29:56
RICK JAMES
Yep. Yep.
00:29:58
The SnowJobs Podcast
hundred percent
00:29:58
RICK JAMES
Oh, yeah.
00:29:59
Jordan Smith
So much gambling. Gambling with, even in the best winner, you can have some rockstar winners and make great money, but I still don't know if it makes up for two year two winners in a row like we've had in Fargo and Minnesota. I just, you can't, unless you have seasonal contracts, you can't make up that ground and in one good winner. It takes multiple.
00:30:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, and you're robbing Peter to pay Paul in your business.
00:30:17
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm.
00:30:21
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:30:21
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah it's Yeah, I agree with that 100%. ah percent
00:30:26
Jordan Smith
So next talking point, um this one is a slippery slope that we talk you guys talk about all the time on the podcast. We talked about it in dustings last year. um But the rise and hopeful fall of the broker model.
00:30:40
Jordan Smith
ah So brokers were obviously part of the key trends um leading to low quality work and price pressure and everything else. ah any Any new thoughts besides the normal ones on brokers and and if if they're here to stay or if we think they actually could go away in this industry?
00:30:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm.
00:30:59
RICK JAMES
a I think they're here to stay, honestly. There's always going to be, like, these big companies are going to hire somebody to manage all their stuff so they don't have to worry about it, my opinion. I mean, unfortunately, that's just the way it is, and they're going to get their cut, and they're going somebody to do it for a little or nothing and think they got something, to be honest.
00:31:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
i I agree with Jeremy that I think the brokers, you're never gonna you never going to get rid of them. They've already seen that they can make money doing no work ah by farming it out.
00:31:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
What I think you are going to see, and I think you've already seen it with some of the smarter companies, ah some of the companies that listen to this show, ah guys have been saying, we've heard more than once that guys have gotten what they've asked for.
00:31:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
for doing sites broker broker wise this year. And whether that's guys not knowing what the hell they should be asking for, i don't know, but they, they've met their, you know, what they wanted to get for a property.
00:31:48
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:31:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
Um, so I think that the, the brokers that aren't clowns that aren't banking on no snow models, um, I think that they're adjusting and they're realizing, hey, we can no longer take 50% of this.
00:32:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
We can take a normal broker rate, 15% off the top, and you know let's make it up in volume. ah Let's treat these guys better. ah you know They're making us money. We're not doing anything. Picking up a phone and sending a couple emails and getting some e-signs, e-signatures.
00:32:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
you know it's ah
00:32:28
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:32:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
you know I think they're realizing that to keep doing what they were doing, It's not going to work. there's There's light shed on it now. You got this podcast that you know we bang the drum pretty hard, and you got people talking, and the industry is younger.
00:32:43
The SnowJobs Podcast
So the young guys don't want to work for peanuts. They're all about money, making money, and and amount more money and flash. they They want their money. So I think they had a lot of – Jeremy, we were getting things sent in late December that brokers were still looking for major sites that weren't filled.
00:32:57
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:33:00
RICK JAMES
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:33:03
The SnowJobs Podcast
So, I mean, guys, we're not saying yes.
00:33:03
RICK JAMES
Yeah. think I think like you say, a lot of guys are getting the money, like you said.
00:33:07
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:33:10
RICK JAMES
like that they Obviously, like we always tell them, always reject the first offer because you know that's never right, whatever. But they might be getting the right money, but these brokers are still looking for a loophole if you don't take that right picture or something like that.
00:33:26
RICK JAMES
So yll you know there's they might give you the right price, but they're still looking for a loophole somewhere where they might catch you.
00:33:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
100%. Are they going to pay? You're right.
00:33:32
RICK JAMES
Are they going to pay? I mean, that that's the problem with it. you know. there's you know i don't know the The site got pushed.
00:33:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
But then that only takes another year.
00:33:39
RICK JAMES
It's easy to see.
00:33:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
But that then that only takes another year for them to get that word out now that, hey, listen, these guys, will they'll pay you what you want contractually, but then they're not going to pay you.
00:33:40
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:33:49
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like you said, they're going to find any way to so to loophole you and not pay, or they're going to make you wait six months for your money and until guys just... as a whole, just say no more.
00:34:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
I think they're going to be around. I think they're going to have to, to survive and keep making their money for doing no work whatsoever and assuming no liability and having no skin in the game. They're going to have to be happy with tape.
00:34:12
RICK JAMES
so bad.
00:34:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
Well, I mean, it's true. Like, right.
00:34:14
RICK JAMES
and no I know, I know.
00:34:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
Am I, is anything I'm saying inaccurate?
00:34:15
RICK JAMES
It's so ridiculous the way you say that.
00:34:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
You know, they, they, They have no liability.
00:34:19
RICK JAMES
Yeah, but what's your name?
00:34:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
They're doing no work and they have no no investment in the game. And all they're doing is taking money from the contractor. So if they want to continue to be able to do that, they have to do it at a reasonable broker rate for any industry. Real estate brokers, anything is, you know, between eight and 15 percent.
00:34:36
The SnowJobs Podcast
So they're going to have to be happy with that and make it up in volume, I would think.
00:34:39
Jordan Smith
Yep.
00:34:42
Jordan Smith
Yep. And I completely agree with both of you. i think they are here to stay. So I think for anyone thinking that they're going to disappear, it's not going to happen.
00:34:52
Jordan Smith
I think they're going have to adapt.
00:34:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:34:54
Jordan Smith
If, you know, again, I, The snow industry is so young. You know, we touched a little bit on some of the history of the industry in one of the dustings last year. it's It's a really young industry.
00:35:04
RICK JAMES
Yep. yep
00:35:05
Jordan Smith
Like when you, but again, you talk about it compared to other trades like plumbing, electrical, HVAC, it has not been around in a commercial, scaled commercial industry. scale, I should say, like those industries have. So it's it's still immature, it's still young.
00:35:22
Jordan Smith
And because of that, brokers are taking advantage of people, which as standards increase, and as we become less undervalued and as an industry that will help sort itself out. But
00:35:33
Jordan Smith
The reason it's here to stay and the reason we know that is look at every established industry. Real estate is dominated by brokers who manage facilities, who manage all procured services, like very established industry.
00:35:46
Jordan Smith
look at You look at plumbing and HVAC and electrical. Like a lot of that work is brokered out by giant national companies, but they're not in a position to rip people off because there's standards in those industries, right?
00:35:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. 100%.
00:35:58
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:35:59
Jordan Smith
But the reality is the reason they're here to stay is you think about a company like Walmart, They set a budget for the year. And if they were to rely on every store manager to hire a snow contractor, their budget would be all over the place because one guy would get ripped off and pay way too much.
00:36:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
00:36:13
Jordan Smith
One guy would have no idea what he's doing and take the low bid and service would be bad. So like when they budget, they need it. They need to hit the budget. So they need people at corporate HQ buying these services at a set price because then they know they're going to hit their budget.
00:36:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:36:27
Jordan Smith
So it's just, it's always going to be there.
00:36:28
RICK JAMES
Thank you.
00:36:29
Jordan Smith
It's just exactly like you guys said, it is a matter of us becoming valued properly as an industry and and a matter of education, like what you guys are doing in this podcast for contractors to know what they're worth and what they should take and what they shouldn't. And once we get to the point where 80% plus the contractors know enough on what they should take and what they shouldn't, then the broker model will fix itself.
00:36:51
Jordan Smith
And it's here to stay, but it it just needs to get better. Exactly what you said, is Steve, 10 to 15% as a transaction fee, and that's what it should look like.
00:36:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
00:37:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
Jordan, do you think like a like, I mean, a Walmart, for example, because you just said it. Do you think they don't know what goes on or they just don't care? Like like ah let's let's say Walmart budgets one hundred thousand dollars to do the the location in my town.
00:37:16
The SnowJobs Podcast
Do they do they know that the contractor that's actually doing it is only getting 50 and that's why their slip falls are up? That's why their liability, you know, well, they don't care because they're basically hold harmless.
00:37:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
You know, the contractors assuming all the liability.
00:37:27
RICK JAMES
Thank you.
00:37:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
So it works for them. But do you think that they they are aware that, listen, you're getting subpar service because the broker that you hired is taking half the money for doing nothing?
00:37:39
Jordan Smith
You know, from experience, personally, many years ago, personally, and from people I have worked with in the industry, I don't think most of them have any idea. So my personal experience, this goes is way back, but we were servicing a Verizon call center for, you're going to laugh, but Ferrandino and Son.
00:38:00
Jordan Smith
so
00:38:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
Okay.
00:38:01
Jordan Smith
This is probably 11... eleven
00:38:02
The SnowJobs Podcast
I've heard the name.
00:38:03
Jordan Smith
10 or 11 years ago, right? So like you couldn't go on Snowplaw Mafia and find out that they're horrible, right?
00:38:05
RICK JAMES
We do one.
00:38:09
Jordan Smith
There just wasn't any information on them. You go on Google and they show up as a reputable company from New Jersey and seems like it's fine.
00:38:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
00:38:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure.
00:38:17
Jordan Smith
So we took a contract of what we thought was a pretty fair price. It was good for us at the time. um in hindsight, it wasn't that good, but at the time it was good for us and we were servicing. And at one point the facility manager came out and I just started talking to him and And he was saying like, no, we need this and this and this and this. And I said something like, God, for an $80,000 contract, I just like, we can't like, it's not in our contract. Like our our contract at Ferrandino says it's a two inch trigger and this and this and this and this.
00:38:49
Jordan Smith
And he said, wait, how how much was that? I said, 80,000. thousand He goes, oh, we're paying them 220.
00:38:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
Wow.
00:38:56
RICK JAMES
Oh, ho, ho, ho,
00:38:58
The SnowJobs Podcast
Wow.
00:38:59
RICK JAMES
oh my
00:38:59
Jordan Smith
So, you know, that was kind of a light bulb went off and I'm like, okay, I understand now.
00:39:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
Get the lube.
00:39:04
Jordan Smith
So Ferrandino gave me a two inch trigger contract. You wanted first flake. They said de-iced by request only. You want it de-iced nonstop, like multiple times per storm.
00:39:14
RICK JAMES
and we
00:39:15
Jordan Smith
Like the expectations are different and thus the pay is different, right?
00:39:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah Yep.
00:39:19
Jordan Smith
So that was my personal example, but I've heard from other people too. Like, I don't think most store managers know, but the ones that are in the know on what their store budget for services are, it seems like it's usually about half of what the broker's getting paid.
00:39:31
Jordan Smith
And that makes sense, right? Brokers are looking to make 40 or 50%.
00:39:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:39:34
Jordan Smith
So, which is ridiculous.
00:39:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure.
00:39:36
RICK JAMES
Yep. Yep.
00:39:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
It is ridiculous.
00:39:40
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:39:42
Jordan Smith
All right.
00:39:42
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, man.
00:39:43
RICK JAMES
for
00:39:44
Jordan Smith
Enough on brokers. We could talk about them all night.
00:39:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
Moving on.
00:39:48
RICK JAMES
Yeah, we could go on.
00:39:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah
00:39:50
Jordan Smith
Next talking point that came out of the responses is we kind of
Labor and Seasonal Employment Challenges
00:39:56
Jordan Smith
already covered a little bit, but um skilled labor is hard to find and keep. What are people doing to adapt to that?
00:40:06
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm.
00:40:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
Well, I think you need snow.
00:40:09
RICK JAMES
for skill labor?
00:40:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
I think you need regular snow as we keep hearing.
00:40:12
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:40:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
um Just, I mean, take care of them as best you can find out what their, what their needs are, what they, you know, pay them well, make sure they don't want for anything while they're working for you. ah I don't know. I mean, that's, I don't know.
00:40:31
The SnowJobs Podcast
You hearing anything different from guys, Jay, what they're doing?
00:40:33
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
00:40:35
RICK JAMES
No, it's pretty much echoing what you say. You know, you try to you try to take care of your guys, like you said, when they're here and, you know, boost them up and do whatever you can. And, you know, it's it's ah it's ah it's a tough industry, honestly. I mean, it's like we've talked about this a million times, but it's, you know, you never know when you're going to work.
00:40:55
RICK JAMES
you know, you got to work in the worst conditions, and and we expect you to show up. If you don't show up, it is what it is. We got to figure it out one way or another and get it done. So, yeah, it's just try to take care it the best you can.
00:41:03
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:05
Jordan Smith
So
00:41:07
RICK JAMES
Unless we got, what do you got, Jordan?
00:41:09
Jordan Smith
i was going to say, so, you know, for you guys, I think I know the answer, but maybe not everyone listening does. So are the people working for you guys, are they people that are trades people that are laid off? Are they what are they like? what What do these people do full time? Cause they obviously don't work.
00:41:28
Jordan Smith
Well, not maybe a glacier. There's some full timers. I think there are some full timers year round at glacier, but what are the most of these people doing when they're not plowing snow?
00:41:37
RICK JAMES
To be completely honest, our full-timer guys here are mainly salt truck drivers. We don't have... None of the full-time guys drive loaders. They're all either farmers or you know college kids or...
00:41:50
RICK JAMES
You know, guys work at elevators or wherever, you know, they all have, this is their second or part-time job whenever they can make it. now So that's, that's pretty much her our crew. Our side rock guys are all college kids, stuff like that.
00:42:03
RICK JAMES
Honestly, I see Elon's coming out with the robot. I wonder if he can get them to drive these loaders and shovel, you know, I think we 20, 30, $20, $30,000 Tesla robots.
00:42:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
Uh.
00:42:13
RICK JAMES
They're called. I might have to get a fleet of them here pretty soon.
00:42:17
Jordan Smith
That'd be cool.
00:42:19
RICK JAMES
It would be cool.
00:42:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
oh
00:42:20
RICK JAMES
Be a lot less stress.
00:42:23
Jordan Smith
Steve, about you? What are your guests?
00:42:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
Uh, my guys, my guys are all firemen, mostly, uh, nine, nine out of 10 are firemen.
00:42:28
Jordan Smith
Oh yeah. That's great.
00:42:31
The SnowJobs Podcast
And then, uh, my sidewalk kids, they they're phenomenal. The, like, I know everybody says that's unskilled labor. I could put just about anybody that knows how to run a machine in a machine and say, plow the snow from here to there.
00:42:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
And then, And they're they're okay. ah you You can't find hand labor to do you know the SSVs and the snowblowers and the shovelers. you're you're not You don't have a business in this day and age because that's where your highest liability is. We've talked about that.
00:43:00
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:43:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
Having those guys, um those guys are not firemen. Yeah. i was I took a shot on a kid ah three years ago, and ah he has i mean he has been so worth it. He works his ass off. He works with extreme quality.
00:43:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
He understands the time crunch. He never fails to not show up. And he brought, i think he's up to like 12 or 13 of his friends. that he knows what we're looking for. He knows the level that we want it done to, and he runs them. Like, I don't micromanage them at all. None of my guys do. they The sidewalk, you know, those ninjas do their own thing.
00:43:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
they You just press go, and they know what has to be done. You give them a time, you know, to start, and they're on it. And all his friends, he i don't even have to make phone calls.
00:43:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
I just call Brandon and say, hey, 4 a.m., okay, where are we going you know where are we going first? You want guys at Fox? You want guys start out west and move back? Where do you want to go?
00:44:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
And then they split up into two groups, and they knock it out. And I don't even have to make a phone call. He calls them all in. They all show up. They all work their butts off. I pay them well, and...
00:44:14
The SnowJobs Podcast
They work for basically chicken and for chicken fingers and French fries. That's all they want at five in the morning, six in the morning.
00:44:19
RICK JAMES
ah she says
00:44:21
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like, I'm like, hey, what do you guys want? You guys want egg sandwiches something? You know, and they're like, no, chicken fingers and, you know, 10 chicken fingers and French fries from Smokehouse. Okay. As soon as they open, that's always a funny phone call because ah I'll be usually everybody's ordering egg sandwich and I'm ordering chicken fingers and French fries.
00:44:38
The SnowJobs Podcast
But listen, I don't give a shit what for the work they do. i They want lobster. I'll get them lobster. It doesn't matter. they Like I said, you don't have a business without those guys. They're the ones that make you look really, really good.
00:44:47
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:44:48
RICK JAMES
Right.
00:44:51
Jordan Smith
Yep. hundred percent.
00:44:52
RICK JAMES
Or bad.
00:44:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
so But that's what you know but there they're seasonal. ah Only three of them work for me outside of snow. The rest of them come back. And now I think we out of the 13 we had this year,
00:45:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
It was only the first year for four of them. So the rest of them have come back two seasons, three seasons now, and they keep coming back. They keep doing their thing.
00:45:17
Jordan Smith
It's good. And I think, you know, obviously, Jeremy, your your situation's a little little little unique because Glacier you guys do some stuff in the summer, but it's it's mostly a snow business. Right.
00:45:29
Jordan Smith
um
00:45:29
RICK JAMES
Yeah. Yep. ye
00:45:30
Jordan Smith
And Steve, I mean, you guys do some landscape maintenance and stuff, too.
00:45:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:45:35
Jordan Smith
ah You use the same guys in the summer as you do in the winter.
00:45:36
The SnowJobs Podcast
We do. ah For the most part, yeah. I got a couple that only do winter. um We've downgraded quite a bit on like we're not really mowing large volume commercial lawns or or residential lawns anymore. We've gotten rid of almost all of them. We will do our we'll do our commercial lawn, ma weekly lawn maintenance on commercials that we need to do to keep the snow.
00:46:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
And then, you know, we'll do installs and we'll do, you know, sod, hydro seating, heavy equipment work, that kind of stuff. But as far as bulk lawns, we've got that ship has sailed. I'm done with that crap.
00:46:14
Jordan Smith
so So I think, yeah. so So I think the main difference with probably a lot of the listeners is just that they likely have some kind of summer, like primary summer business, whether it be full scale lawn maintenance, stuff like, I guess, like what you have, Steve, but or landscaping or concrete or asphalt or something like that. Right.
00:46:35
Jordan Smith
So for them,
00:46:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:46:37
Jordan Smith
The summer spring and summer and fall season is actually less challenging because they have everyday full-time work for all those people. The challenging part is when you do get to winter and you can't do all that stuff, if it doesn't snow often enough, that's when what happens to what happened to Jeremy happened.
00:46:51
Jordan Smith
like People get disengaged and all of a sudden they're not wanting to get ah out of bed because you haven't had them come in all winter and they've gotten complacent with playing their video games and going ice fishing or whatever they're doing.
00:46:58
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep.
00:47:02
Jordan Smith
And then even your loyal people who usually work really well in the summer aren't all of a sudden showing up.
00:47:02
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm.
00:47:07
Jordan Smith
So it's it's always that challenge. Like back when we had the landscape division in our company, like we we always tried to guarantee everyone full time year round work. But in a slow winter, it was like, eventually you can only mop the floor and wash the loaders so many times before it's like, we can't have you come in today because we just have nothing to do.
00:47:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
00:47:30
Jordan Smith
You know, fortunately in Minnesota, that doesn't happen often. But the last two years, I'm i'm sure there's a lot of guys in this upper Midwest market. who have those full-time summer businesses and full-time people that are just hurting because either they had to lay them off or they've just been scrapping by and trying to keep them busy. I mean, that's that that's ah that's a
Regional Variations in Snow Industry Dynamics
00:47:48
Jordan Smith
tough part of the industry. if you don't keep them busy, they're probably going to try to find something else.
00:47:51
Jordan Smith
And if you do keep them busy, you're probably going broke doing it. You know, that's that's the hard part.
00:47:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
hundred percent
00:47:56
Jordan Smith
So last talking point, I won't stretch it out too much longer.
00:47:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
hundred percent
00:48:01
Jordan Smith
We're we're at about 50 minutes here already. Time goes fast with you guys here.
00:48:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
All good.
00:48:06
Jordan Smith
But last talking point that came up often was just kind of talking through some of the regional differences in contractor confidence and client expectations.
00:48:16
Jordan Smith
So like, what do we see in the Northeast? You know, even the difference between New England and the Mid-Atlantic, and then what do you see in the Midwest? And then what do you see in the West? And figure you guys are pretty qualified to talk about that because you talk to all the people from everywhere.
00:48:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah I don't have the slightest idea, honestly. Like, that's what we bring you in for. we We're only in our own little bubbles. I mean, yeah, we talk to people, but I couldn't honestly, i could give you like points of view from one guy. ah i mean, it depends. Like we talked to Mikey and they're in New Hampshire and Massachusetts, ah but that's one company.
00:48:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Like, I don't know how the rest of New Hampshire, Massachusetts is. Yeah. My, i mean, from my region, I think you have, as far as contractor confidence, what do you mean contractor confidence?
00:49:08
Jordan Smith
Just just like um like, for example, in in the Northeast, there was a period there, and when I say Northeast, that leave you out, Steve, because you always get snow. But like there was, i would say, Mid-Atlantic and Lehigh Valley and like you know further south than you, Steve. like People said, ah it's not going to snow here anymore.
00:49:27
Jordan Smith
It's global warming.
00:49:27
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:49:28
Jordan Smith
We're not going to get snow anymore. never It never snows anymore. It doesn't snow like it used to. all that that You always hear that, right?
00:49:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, okay. I got you.
00:49:34
Jordan Smith
So that's what that is, contractor confidence.
00:49:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
so So confidence in the in actually getting snow.
00:49:38
Jordan Smith
Right. Right. Right.
00:49:39
The SnowJobs Podcast
Gotcha. um Yeah, I mean, my area, where we're pretty firm on that. I think in New York City and like the Metroplex where they've had, I think this year they had Six inches, maybe, but it was the first time in three years they had any accumulating snow in New York City.
00:49:57
Jordan Smith
right
00:49:57
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah So I think if you're doing snow in New York City, yeah, you probably have a lot less confidence that you're going to get regular snow every year. And then as you go south... I don't know. I mean, I know Virginia found out that they could still get snow this year.
00:50:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
and that was
00:50:13
Jordan Smith
Yeah, they did.
00:50:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
didn' They got hit bullseye with both of those, right, Jeremy? That was where you went for the first one.
00:50:19
RICK JAMES
Yeah. Yep. Yep.
00:50:21
The SnowJobs Podcast
so
00:50:21
RICK JAMES
That was, that was good. Yeah. No, I think it's to be honest, I, a lot of guys I talked to nobody's confidence that it's going to snow anymore. it just doesn't, you know, we've had so many down, we've had so many down years, even like even us in the Midwest, we're just kind of,
00:50:30
The SnowJobs Podcast
It's true.
00:50:37
RICK JAMES
fuck is this just doesn't snow anymore i mean we it's been two years but still it's i mean you come off 100 inch year yourself jordan and you've had nothing the last two years i talked to guys in illinois you noise stuff like that and they haven't snow forever even this year they know they haven't got a lot either it's it's just like nobody has confidence is gonna snow anymore i just mean it's it's tough it's it's very tough but you gotta you gotta
00:50:56
Jordan Smith
right
00:51:05
RICK JAMES
least dreaming your head is gonna snow to keep wanting to do this, I guess.
00:51:07
Jordan Smith
Yeah. Yeah. it's it's And it's cyclical too, right? Like unless the hard part about 10 year data is it's, it's 10 years old or some of it's 10 years old. Right.
00:51:19
Jordan Smith
So like, if you look at the 10 year data, we're getting the same amount of snow we got 50 years ago.
00:51:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
ye ah Yeah, that could be.
00:51:23
Jordan Smith
Um, But it doesn't feel like it because it it does seem like the last, maybe the last four years, um a lot of areas have been below average.
00:51:35
Jordan Smith
But if you think back to, i might i might be butchering these dates, but I want to say like 2018, almost every major snow market was above average. that Is that the year 2018, 2018?
00:51:46
Jordan Smith
I know Minnesota, Fargo. i know I know we were for sure.
00:51:49
RICK JAMES
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:51:50
Jordan Smith
That's when Boston got like 100 inches.
00:51:50
The SnowJobs Podcast
That could definitely be the year.
00:51:51
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:51:52
Jordan Smith
I mean,
00:51:52
RICK JAMES
I think they got, yeah.
00:51:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, that that could have been our massive Nor'easter year.
00:51:54
Jordan Smith
There was three nor'easter.
00:51:54
RICK JAMES
Seems like I remember. Yeah.
00:51:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, where we got 56 inches from two Nor'easters.
00:51:56
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:51:58
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:51:59
Jordan Smith
Yep.
00:51:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep, that could be it.
00:51:59
Jordan Smith
pretty Pretty sure that was the year. But I think that's the last time we've really had a snow dump. And I think that's maybe part of it is I think confidence, you know, even if people are getting average or just below average, like they haven't gotten one of those giants in a while. So then they lose confidence.
00:52:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, I think it's, ah you know, Rob from the weather pros when they came on and did their winter outlook. ah He was actually saying like the history of weather recording is so young, basically in the grand scheme of history that we're so hyper focused on a, like a five-year block or a 10-year block.
00:52:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
You could go back to, you know, 1850 and it might've not snowed in Fargo at all, you know, from 1850 to 1853. And but nobody was there to record it, you know, to to know.
00:52:44
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:52:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
So we don't know. So he says there could have been lows, low snow years and in the history of, of areas that we don't even know about or aren't aware. so that's a, I thought that was an interesting point.
00:52:55
RICK JAMES
think part of I think part of the issue too is we've advanced so much in equipment and our efficiencies in the last so many years that we obviously maybe want to snow more than we ever have too just so we can you it to do what we do.
00:53:04
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh yeah.
00:53:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sure.
00:53:14
RICK JAMES
but mean and Our efficiencies are skyrocketing from what they were.
00:53:20
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:53:20
RICK JAMES
you know
00:53:20
Jordan Smith
Oh yeah, for sure.
00:53:21
RICK JAMES
Just from five years ago, we're 100% better than we were. you know It's
00:53:24
Jordan Smith
but
00:53:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
So as our investments and overhead.
00:53:27
Jordan Smith
Right.
00:53:28
RICK JAMES
Yeah, you know i you exactly.
00:53:28
Jordan Smith
Well, that's true. and
00:53:29
RICK JAMES
Exactly.
00:53:31
The SnowJobs Podcast
Which is why we want it to snow even more.
00:53:31
Jordan Smith
I think, I think
00:53:33
RICK JAMES
Exactly.
00:53:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
my God.
00:53:34
RICK JAMES
Exactly.
00:53:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
Please snow so we can pay for these stupid investments.
00:53:36
RICK JAMES
Right. Pay for this stuff.
00:53:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. ah
00:53:39
Jordan Smith
think that's, that's a really good point that I hadn't thought about. Like, I think that's right. i don't know what, there's obviously no tracking on productivity. Um, at all, but you're probably right.
00:53:51
Jordan Smith
I would guess as an industry, where we're probably at least 30 or 40% more efficient today than we were five or six years ago. So even if we get 30 or 40% more snow, it feels like we didn't get as much because now a 10 hour route's only taking six hours, right?
00:53:59
RICK JAMES
I'd agree.
00:54:00
The SnowJobs Podcast
Easily.
00:54:05
Jordan Smith
Like that's probably part of it.
00:54:05
The SnowJobs Podcast
Easily. I believe that.
00:54:06
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:54:08
The SnowJobs Podcast
I believe that.
00:54:08
RICK JAMES
Mm-hmm.
00:54:08
Jordan Smith
Huh. So
00:54:10
The SnowJobs Podcast
A lot more Artics out there.
00:54:10
RICK JAMES
We're more efficient and we're... yeah yeah she sis I mean, we're just we're just so much more efficient.
00:54:13
Jordan Smith
yeah, that's gotta be what it is.
00:54:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
and Gotta get it in.
00:54:18
RICK JAMES
So, I mean...
00:54:18
Jordan Smith
Well, I mean, that
00:54:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. No, that's 100%. 100% right. I mean, think about the last 10 years, how many more machines versus trucks are on the road.
00:54:25
Jordan Smith
right.
00:54:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
You know.
00:54:26
Jordan Smith
Yep. Yep.
00:54:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
So you're plowing 20 feet instead
00:54:32
RICK JAMES
yeah our efficiency built in but are also our customers are demanding more too at a quicker pace than they ever have least in our area
00:54:32
Jordan Smith
if you If you really want to track...
00:54:40
The SnowJobs Podcast
the... very true
00:54:41
RICK JAMES
well
00:54:42
Jordan Smith
if if you really wanna track ah increase in efficiency in the snow industry, I think all you gotta to look at is hydraulic oil sales over the last five years, because you know more more and more metal plus plows, more and more hydraulic oil sales.
00:54:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
hundred percent hundred that is the That is the benchmark.
00:54:55
RICK JAMES
there you go there you go
00:54:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
That is the benchmark right there.
00:55:00
RICK JAMES
That's for you, Kyle.
00:55:02
The SnowJobs Podcast
Better hope they don't shut down any refineries for maintenance during the winter. yeah
00:55:08
RICK JAMES
Got plan ahead.
00:55:09
Jordan Smith
But,
00:55:09
RICK JAMES
Got to plan ahead.
00:55:10
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah
00:55:11
Jordan Smith
I had to get that in there for Jeremy.
00:55:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
That's great.
00:55:12
Jordan Smith
would It would not be a a dustings episode without a reference to hydraulic oil.
00:55:13
RICK JAMES
yeah
00:55:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
I was waiting. I mean, he's very he's very quiet tonight with
00:55:20
Jordan Smith
Yeah, he hasn't said it, so I had to bring it.
00:55:21
RICK JAMES
um i've been I've been pretty good. I've been pretty good.
00:55:22
Jordan Smith
You've
00:55:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
You've been very good. It's shocking. Oh, shit.
00:55:26
Jordan Smith
been a good boy.
00:55:26
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
00:55:26
RICK JAMES
I get so much hate mail, and I love that, too. But yeah.
00:55:31
The SnowJobs Podcast
oh oh shit
00:55:33
Jordan Smith
so So I think the last thing along with that, you know, the contractor confidence and is is the client expectation.
00:55:33
RICK JAMES
makes my day
00:55:35
The SnowJobs Podcast
yeah
00:55:39
Jordan Smith
So I think what I've observed again with our customers and with two down winners and with people I've talked to who've had down winners is when there is less snow,
00:55:52
Jordan Smith
when when it actually does snow, the client expectations are higher because they feel like they've been paying, especially on seasonal contracts.
00:55:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, sure.
00:55:59
Jordan Smith
Oh, we've been paying for this all year. And if you're not here to catch every snowflake, we're not happy or and it's not acceptable. I've heard that from a lot of people saying that expectations are just a lot higher. And, you know, I've historically always said like expectations on the East Coast have always been higher than the Midwest.
00:56:15
Jordan Smith
Like I even had people from the East Coast come here and look at some of the snow sites around our town. Like these sites would be unacceptable in the East Coast. There's there's a little bit of snow along the curve. I'm like, yeah, that's what that's what every site looks like here.
00:56:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, yeah. True. true
00:56:27
Jordan Smith
But in the Northeast, it doesn't happen. um But I think even with our low snow years here, the last couple of years, we've been feeling that same thing. Like they're just a lot pickier and have higher expectations because they feel like it's not snowing that much. It should be perfect. Whereas three years ago with 100 inches, they were pretty lenient. We even had clients saying like, oh we just got a dusting last night. Just leave it. Like it's it's snowing every day. Just take a break. Like that would not happen in the last two years. They would expect you to be there catching every flake, you know.
00:56:53
RICK JAMES
Oh yeah. Yep. yep
00:56:54
The SnowJobs Podcast
I think it's ah also a generational thing. ah You're getting younger younger owners of businesses that they've grown up in a generation where they want everything now and they want it fast and they don't you know they don't understand what goes into things because it's always been done for them. ah you know that That's big. like The average owner of the properties we're doing now is like mid-30s is the high.
00:57:18
The SnowJobs Podcast
like There's a lot of sites that have very young ownership groups.
00:57:18
Jordan Smith
yeah
00:57:22
Jordan Smith
Yep.
00:57:22
The SnowJobs Podcast
And ah I think they have different expectations because of the generation they grew up in.
00:57:26
Jordan Smith
That makes a lot of sense. I think that's exactly right.
00:57:30
RICK JAMES
Like Jordan just said, you know, like, like i was going to say, like you just said, lot these customers, like you said, maybe if there's a dusting and you got a big year, they're not going worry about it.
00:57:30
Jordan Smith
So last thing,
00:57:39
RICK JAMES
But like on a year like this, it's not even just customers. We kind of feel like we have to go out just to show them we're servicing them, if you know, so we can try to get this contract back again, you know, because that could be something they'll say, well, you weren't here when we got,
00:57:50
The SnowJobs Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:57:54
RICK JAMES
10th of an ant or know whatever. It's like, it's a double-edged sword either way.
00:57:56
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
00:57:58
RICK JAMES
you know, you gotta, you gotta play both, both sides of the coin there. So
00:58:03
Jordan Smith
Well, and I think as contractors, like, you know, we talk about retaining labor and keeping people happy. I mean, we're we're going to jump at every opportunity to service too, because we want to get the guys hours, right?
00:58:12
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, 100%.
00:58:13
RICK JAMES
get the guys out.
00:58:13
The SnowJobs Podcast
um ever since
00:58:14
RICK JAMES
Yep. Yep.
00:58:14
Jordan Smith
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely part of it is, is luckily in that, in the case of low snow, if client expectations are high, that's good because now we can justify sending guys out a little bit earlier than we normally would because client expectations are high.
00:58:15
RICK JAMES
Yep.
00:58:26
Jordan Smith
So that, that can help play into our favor a little bit. Obviously still, we would much prefer a strong winter than that, but I think that's a hundred percent right.
00:58:33
RICK JAMES
ye
00:58:34
Jordan Smith
I've, I've even noticed that with our, with our team this year, like we're probably going out a couple hours earlier than normal, just because like, well, we haven't been out all year. Might as well get out early and get ahead of it, you know?
00:58:44
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. yep
00:58:45
Jordan Smith
and Even more than we normally do.
00:58:45
RICK JAMES
river right
00:58:50
Jordan Smith
So last thing I had, guys, just it's ah pretty quick, but I just I pulled a couple of quotes from the survey. So if anyone listening had these quotes, we we thank you for them. Some of them are ah pretty low key, but some of them are are pretty funny.
00:59:04
Jordan Smith
Now, they're all in line with everything we just talked about. So the first one just in line with contractors being all in on snow and the quote is, ah we are all in on snow in our area. We don't slow down and snow is key to our revenue and profitability.
00:59:18
Jordan Smith
And then there was a longer part of that quote basically saying like, it doesn't matter if it snows or not, like we're all in on it. It's our business. We're seasonal contracts. We're building it building an enduring business. They even use that term. So that was cool.
00:59:29
Jordan Smith
That's why I picked it because I was liking that they used my quote.
00:59:31
RICK JAMES
if
00:59:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. I like it.
00:59:34
RICK JAMES
Use your quote.
00:59:34
Jordan Smith
Um, next one is, uh, there's still way too many uneducated contractors hurting the market underpricing, not knowing their numbers at all and selling the wrong way. It makes our industry look incompetent.
00:59:48
Jordan Smith
And that is why we don't get the respect we deserve.
00:59:51
The SnowJobs Podcast
Hmm.
00:59:51
Jordan Smith
So I think, you know, I think what they're going for there is it's somewhat what we talked about, like, I think some people may, maybe they're just pretty green at it and they're not approaching things the right way. They're not maybe expressing to their clients, ah you know, how hard the work we do is and why it costs what it costs and how much we're investing in our iron and that kind of stuff. So I think that's what they're kind of aiming at there.
01:00:15
Jordan Smith
Next one, i put this one in because we talked about it in some of the dustings last year's, but we talked about how snow is an emergency service. So the quote is snow is an emergency service, but many companies price it like they are paper boys. This is stupid.
01:00:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
um
01:00:30
RICK JAMES
Yeah, I like that.
01:00:31
The SnowJobs Podcast
um I agree with that.
01:00:31
RICK JAMES
Yeah. yeah
01:00:33
Jordan Smith
And then the last one, this one's pretty pretty boring, but national brokers are killing the quality control and reputation our industry. Oh, and all the profit too. So just some of the quotes I pulled out that back up some of these points.
01:00:41
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh.
01:00:44
Jordan Smith
So if anyone submitted those quotes, thanks for that. And again, thanks to all those that did participate in the survey.
01:00:49
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh.
01:00:50
Jordan Smith
um i spent literally days reading through all this stuff. When we get to some of the other episodes and go through some of the essay responses, like there's some really... good stuff that people spent a lot of time thinking about that was really, really fun to go through and read.
01:01:06
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. You know, that last one, Jordan, the national brokers are killing the quality control reputation in the industry and the profit to the one thing that that's all true.
01:01:06
RICK JAMES
cool
01:01:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
The one thing that is not there and really needs to be thought about is all these insurance companies that are getting out of snow.
Insurance and Broker Model Impact
01:01:23
The SnowJobs Podcast
and the the hikes that we're seeing, that is a lot because the majority of slip and falls, I mean, are on these big box stores.
01:01:33
The SnowJobs Podcast
They're on these broker held sites because the guys can't afford to service them properly. And, I don't have slip and falls, but I'm paying for the three idiots in my town doing the property, you know, doing a Sam's Club and a Walmart for fucking 40 grand, you know, that have eight slip and falls a year or the Gold's Gym Plaza.
01:01:52
Jordan Smith
right
01:01:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
You know, it's it's ridiculous that that's what's happening, you know, and that's, I think, so a byproduct that people aren't aware of or maybe not as aware of is that the reason our insurance is going up, a lot of it is because of that that model.
01:02:08
Jordan Smith
what And I think to tie that back to brokers a little bit, one of the challenges that is creating some of the insurance issues is that when you, typically when you sign a contract,
01:02:19
Jordan Smith
with a broker, I think you already mentioned this, Steve, but they're going to have a hold harmless clause for both the broker and for their client.
01:02:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah.
01:02:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
And the client. Absolutely.
01:02:29
Jordan Smith
So now when there is an incident,
01:02:30
RICK JAMES
Yep. Mm-hmm. Go through the...
01:02:32
Jordan Smith
The insurance company or the contractor is bearing the entire burden. There's no subrogation, there's no split, there's no, like it is literally whoever was servicing the site has 100% the liability. it doesn't matter if the concrete was junk, doesn't matter if the sprinkler, if the the the fire hydrant broke or the fire suppression system was leaked.
01:02:53
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah. No, it's on you.
01:02:53
Jordan Smith
contractor is a hundred percent liable. So it's almost like our insurance companies are taking liability for property issues too.
01:02:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yep. Sure.
01:03:00
Jordan Smith
And some of it is service issues, but not all of it is like some, some slip and falls are because the property is in horrible shape and and it's not possible to get it cleared properly.
01:03:01
The SnowJobs Podcast
sure
01:03:09
The SnowJobs Podcast
Listen, there are people that that trip and fall or go down in big box store parking lots in August on dry pavement.
01:03:10
RICK JAMES
Right.
01:03:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
you know it
01:03:18
Jordan Smith
Yep.
01:03:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
But if that happened in January, even if it was still dry pavement, it were you know you're screwed.
01:03:23
RICK JAMES
Yep.
01:03:24
The SnowJobs Podcast
You're going to get sued, and the insurance company is going to settle it.
01:03:24
Jordan Smith
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Right.
01:03:28
The SnowJobs Podcast
They're not even going to investigate it.
01:03:29
RICK JAMES
Yep.
01:03:29
The SnowJobs Podcast
We all know that because it's cheaper to settle.
01:03:30
RICK JAMES
And this is not a lot.
01:03:32
The SnowJobs Podcast
And then you're getting dinged if not dropped.
01:03:34
RICK JAMES
Ding.
01:03:35
Jordan Smith
yeah
01:03:35
RICK JAMES
Yep.
01:03:37
Jordan Smith
ye
01:03:37
The SnowJobs Podcast
And that's that's the that's the world we're living in right now. And there's, you know, monopolies are supposed to be illegal. But what these insurance companies have figured out is so many of them have dropped out of snow.
01:03:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
That is almost a monopoly. There's so few companies offering it that they know now they can jack you 800%.
01:03:50
Jordan Smith
right
01:03:55
The SnowJobs Podcast
You don't have a freaking choice. You got to be grateful and down on your knees thanking them. Thank you for letting me pay, you know, 800% more than I did last year without a a single claim, you know, because I need the insurance.
01:04:08
RICK JAMES
Right.
01:04:08
Jordan Smith
and I think, you know, to expand on that, the companies that are still writing the insurance, they're not writing it for new companies either. So like, for example, for us, we when we got out of landscaping, we we we rebranded our snow business
01:04:15
The SnowJobs Podcast
No. Mm-hmm.
01:04:23
Jordan Smith
from Smith Lawn and Landscape to Storm Snow Services. And Storm storm is a separate company from Smith Lawn and Landscape. We can't get snow insurance for Storm Snow Services because it's a new company. um Even though it's the same people, same ownership, same everything, on the books, it's a new company.
01:04:38
Jordan Smith
So what we've had to do is we've had to keep the insurance policy for the old company and list Storm Snow as an additional insured. So like we can't even get, we have to keep that old company intact just so we can have insurance that we can plow snow with.
01:04:45
The SnowJobs Podcast
Wow.
01:04:52
The SnowJobs Podcast
Crazy. It's absolutely crazy. I don't know what's going to happen with that.
01:04:54
RICK JAMES
It's ridiculous.
01:04:54
Jordan Smith
Yeah.
01:04:54
RICK JAMES
Yep.
01:04:56
Jordan Smith
Something's got change for sure.
01:04:56
The SnowJobs Podcast
ah can't keep It can't keep going the way it's going. States are going to have to pass laws to, I mean, because we are an emergency service. And if we all disappear, ah what what's going to happen?
01:05:04
Jordan Smith
Right. Right. Right.
Future of the Snow Industry Series Introduction
01:05:10
RICK JAMES
ye
01:05:11
The SnowJobs Podcast
Oh, well, we could beat that drum to death all day, all night long.
01:05:17
The SnowJobs Podcast
So got anything else, Jordan, on that one?
01:05:19
Jordan Smith
I don't, I think we can wrap up boys. And like I said, we got a prepped a little four part series here. So next episode, next month is the next part of the survey was about what people think the future of the industry looks like.
01:05:36
Jordan Smith
So I kind titled it, what's coming, snow industry in 2030.
01:05:36
The SnowJobs Podcast
That'll be interesting.
01:05:38
RICK JAMES
Yeah.
01:05:41
Jordan Smith
So where is the industry headed? What's some of the technology people see actually getting adopted? So not just pie in the sky dreams of what it is, but what what does this cross section of the industry filled out the survey actually think is going to be in their snow operation in 2030?
01:05:56
Jordan Smith
So I think that'll be fun ah to go through some of that stuff because there's some pretty interesting responses.
01:05:59
The SnowJobs Podcast
Yeah, that's interesting.
Conclusion and Acknowledgments
01:06:02
The SnowJobs Podcast
I want to see what the ah want to see what people had to say on that, actually, knowing snow guys like I do.
01:06:02
RICK JAMES
yeah
01:06:06
Jordan Smith
There's a fair Well, there's a fair amount of stuff about insurance too. So we ended on that and we will, we'll get back into it, but there were some pretty, some pretty cool ideas on insurance, which may or may not be possible, but I think it'll be fun to talk about.
01:06:19
The SnowJobs Podcast
Sweet.
01:06:19
RICK JAMES
Nice.
01:06:20
The SnowJobs Podcast
you Jay, you got anything else?
01:06:22
RICK JAMES
don't think so. It's been another good one with Jordan, like always.
01:06:25
The SnowJobs Podcast
Absolutely. Glad to have you back. Dustings is back.
01:06:29
Jordan Smith
Glad to be back.
01:06:30
The SnowJobs Podcast
All right. All right. Well, then thanks, boys. That's going to do it. Then we are out of this dustings episode. Good to have Jordan back. Thanks to Jordan and the whole team at storm for all the hard work, you know, putting this together on behalf of, ah you know, all of us out there and snow jobs nation. So everybody have a great weekend.
01:06:48
The SnowJobs Podcast
Be safe. Keep pushing.