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#3: Everyone’s invincible until chemicals are pumped into the wrong tank.
142 Plays7 years ago
Series host Jill James speaks with ‘Philly Joe’ Kaufmann, Director of Occupational Health Services for the Inspira Health Network. Joe discusses making the leap from 12-hour shifts in refinery production to the safety and occupational health role, and how his father’s severe occupational injury impacted his childhood, ultimately shaping his approach to the safety job. The conversation covers the pursuit of higher education mid-career, leaving behind the fear of reinvention, and the uncanny adrenaline rush of emergency response. You’ll hear all about what happens if you stay in a job where bad things happen to people, ethics and the state of safety denial, along with Joe’s advice for all safety professionals. Bonus? What happens when the Pope visits your block and how to plan for that.
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Transcript
Introduction and Background
00:00:10
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro, brought to you by Vivid Learning Systems and the Health and Safety Institute. Episode number three. My name is Jill James, Vivid's Chief Safety Officer, and today I'm joined by Joe.
00:00:24
Speaker
Joe is from the Greater Philadelphia area and is currently the Director of Occupational Health Services at Inspira Health Network. Welcome to the show today, Joe, and thanks for being with us. Sure. I really appreciate you having me in the Greater Philadelphia area. Still very excited over our Eagles Super Bowl champion. We get up every day with that being excited, so thanks for having me. You're welcome. Congratulations.
00:00:52
Speaker
So a long time. You can continue to live in that zone. That's awesome. Exactly. Yeah.
Career Beginnings and Philosophy
00:00:57
Speaker
Hey, Joe, so how many years have you been in the safety profession? You know, I started in various roles, but, you know, it goes all the way back to 1996, you know, when I was a volunteer EMT and eventually went paid. And, you know, even that has a component of safety to it. You know, but I started at a manufacturing plant in 2001, you know, quickly joined their emergency response team.
00:01:21
Speaker
Um, and I was at that refinery for, you know, 13 or 14 years and had had a number of different roles. Um, but I eventually went from production and I made the big jump over to safety and, you know, with safety came occupational health within a year or two, I was promoted to the, uh, the site, you know, emergency response coordinator, you know, which I really enjoyed, you know, and I like responding to things and stuff like that. And, uh, I guess as, as.
00:01:47
Speaker
Some others would know it putting out the fire and maybe figuratively and literally. But in my career, I remember seeking advice from those older than me and those that had been in the field for a while. And I said, hey, I really feel like I can make it to the next level. What do I need to do? And their response was, you have to put the radio down. And that was kind of eye-opening for me. I basically realized that meant. Yeah, what did that mean? Yeah.
00:02:10
Speaker
You had to be, uh, you had to stop responding to things and be proactive. You had to prevent them, right? You couldn't, you couldn't react. You had to be proactive. So that, uh, you know, that was what that meant. So, you know, a couple of people gave me that advice and it was, it was good advice. You know, um, my career then took me, uh, to.
00:02:27
Speaker
a healthcare facility in Philadelphia, and that facility was known as the England's House, and that was a live-in and outpatient facility where folks all had spinal cord impairments for various reasons, but they were very intact from an intelligence perspective, and so you never had a bad day there. You would really just enjoy
00:02:48
Speaker
going and speaking with people. The building was very historical in Philadelphia. So from a safety perspective, it was difficult to manage because, you know, things like ceiling lifts and stuff don't fit well in a hundred year old plus building. So yeah, right, right.
00:03:03
Speaker
And then I went over to an HVAC company that was well known in this area. And I got a lot of fleet and risk experience with that. And I would say that things were going very well there. And then a series of things happened. And basically, it's one of those the recruiter reached out to me at the right time when things were happening.
00:03:27
Speaker
I thought it was the right move for me and I ended up at Inspira and I don't regret my decisions or my path a bit. What a great story and what a winding path. Like we always say, no one really kind of got into this profession, not often anyway, with purpose. We kind of came about it through some winding path or accidentally, as is the name of our podcast today.
00:03:51
Speaker
So Joe, I want to back up just a little bit when, and I've been thinking about this for my career as well.
Influences and Career Changes
00:03:58
Speaker
Was there any time in your life, like did you grow up with safety around you or was there something that you think maybe sort of planted that first seed for safety or prevention in your mind? Oh, sure. I mean, I always tell people, you know, I just went through my birthday and uh, you know, I always tell people I hate my birthday and they say, why is that? And I said, well, when I grew up as a kid and I mean a young kid, you know, maybe five, six years old, um,
00:04:21
Speaker
My dad was a diesel truck mechanic and he was involved in an accident at work where he was working on something and basically suffered a catastrophic back injury. And then he had to go through a series of surgeries and kind of each one in my view as a kid worse than the next. And I specifically remember one instance on my birthday where my dad was going for a checkup from one of these surgeries and
00:04:45
Speaker
You know, my mom had my neighbor watching me, you know, and it was supposed to be a one or two hour thing. Next thing I know it was dark, you know, and it started to seem like, you know, where's my mom at? This was in the day of, you know, no cell phones or things like that. You know, I had found out that, you know, there had been complications in that surgery. And basically, you know, my dad was, you know, back in the hospital, you know, with more issues. And so.
00:05:06
Speaker
You know, all the while, you know, as a, you know, as a young kid, you're not aware of what companies are, you know, thinking or what people think or how work injuries are perceived from the outside, you know, and, um, you know, I, I now in reflection and having heard my parent, you know, my dad's story, it was really treated badly by the company, you know, that, you know, they, they just, you know,
00:05:28
Speaker
didn't do right by him. You know what I mean? And I think that my approach in safety has always been do the right thing. You know what I mean? And I think if you approach it that way, you may find yourself in conflict at times, but you, you always are good to yourself. You know, you never feel as though, um, you owe, owe it to anybody else, you know? So for, for my dad, you know, I always approach it that, you know, every injury is real. Sometimes I'm proven wrong, but you know, more often,
00:05:55
Speaker
More often than not, they are real. I don't think people set out to go to work and get hurt. Exactly. Exactly. I did workers' compensation case management for a number of years, and I applied exactly what you're saying. And essentially, it's the golden rule, right? You're treating people the way that you'd want to be treated. And sure, did I sometimes get duped?
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, was it common? No, you know, you're right. I mean, people do not set out, wake up in the morning and go, oh, I'm going to try to get hurt today at work. You know, everyone wants to be treated humanely. And it's a great way to. Yeah, it's my dad, you know, he never went back to that job, you know. So, you know, you always hear about people filing petitions and things like that to get monetary value.
Learning and Setbacks
00:06:39
Speaker
And, you know,
00:06:39
Speaker
People think, oh, they're just trying to make money and things like that. And I remember growing up with my mom being the sole provider for a while while my dad sort of reinvented himself. And he did. He went back to college. He became a chemistry teacher. And then at some point, he actually got into chemical manufacturing. And he became a production superintendent before he retired. For me, it was all about never be afraid to reinvent yourself.
00:07:09
Speaker
When that opportunity for me from a production standpoint to a safety standpoint came, I just thought, you know what, it's really not for me. It's never been about what you know. It's always about how hard you'll work to know it. You know what I mean? And so I always say, if you put two people next to each other and one has, you know, the highest degree you can get and one.
00:07:27
Speaker
doesn't, but wants it more, you know, hard work beats everything else. You know what I mean? So that's really been my approach. Yeah, right. So back to that refinery job. So you're, you're at the refinery, you're literally, you know, putting out the fires, like you say, on the radio all the time and the safety thing opens. What, what did you think it was going to be and who kind of mentored you along? Because I'm guessing you're sort of green to at that point, at least to all things, occupational safety.
00:07:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, the refinery was a 24 seven operation, you know, and safety was an eight to five job there. You know what I mean? So I had a schedule in which, you know, I was working 12 hour shifts. So there were plenty of times where, you know, I was on site when things were going wrong and there were no safety folks. So, you know, I had, I had had time to, you know, kind of progress through, you know, injuries and things like that. You know, I was always somebody that was curious about, you know, OSHA regulations and things like that, because, you know, at my
00:08:24
Speaker
At my plant, it was a collective bargaining plant. And so there would be questions raised all the time about what was a violation and what wasn't. So you had to kind of have some knowledge. It actually happened that I was going through review time and I was kind of doing a check-in. I felt like I had peaked out in production and I was questioning the person that was doing my review, who was in human resources. I said, where do you see this going? Do you have any...
00:08:51
Speaker
upward mobility because I was kind of feeling like I was stuck, you know what I mean? And, um, you know, he said, well, you know, we don't have an occupational health nurse right now. And you know, we really, uh, you know, we're really having a hard time recruiting one, you know, and you're an EMT and you treated people here before and you always do a really good job. What would you think about doing like a hybrid role between like occupational health and safety specialists, you know? And so, you know, it took me about three seconds to decide that was what I wanted to do. You know what I mean? Because it was more along the lines of, you know, how I,
00:09:18
Speaker
how I envisioned, you know, what I wanted to do. So, um, you know, so that's how I got into it. Yeah. So how long were you at that job? So I did that job for about, you know, another two and a half years, um, before I moved on, um, you know, the advice I can give people there is, you know, I was, you know, at, at a point in my career where I went back to the, you know, it was another review time, right? And I had done very well. I was an emergency response coordinator. People, uh, knew who I was. We were doing very well, but,
00:09:46
Speaker
There was an open safety manager position and it had been open for a while and they had not found the right fit. And at this point I had, you know, 13 years experience at this plant, you know, so I made the mention that, you know, I wanted to be the safety manager. And, you know, at the time I was told, well, you know, you'll likely definitely be in the pool, apply for it. We were going to really help you get there.
00:10:05
Speaker
you know, but then it came around to, you know, interview time and, you know, they just decided that I didn't have an environmental engineering degree. So then I was not qualified, you know, and that, that was unfortunate because, you know, after you have 13 years at a place, you tend to know how everything works. And, you know, um, I did, but I didn't let that demotivate me. You know, it was either you were going to sit in a position you were in and not be happy that you were told you couldn't do it, or you're going to use that as motivation to kind of go to the next place. And so that's what brought me to the, you know,
00:10:33
Speaker
the English house in Philadelphia, you know, that healthcare facility. Um, they took a chance on me and, you know, I went and took a chance on the fact that I thought that I could do it, you know, on a management level. And, you know, I started there as their safety manager. And, um, you know, I was promoted within a year to the director of safety, security and, and, uh, communications, you know, in, in, uh, you know, big city, you know what I mean? And so, um, one of, one of the most memorable things there was, you know, the Pope came to Philadelphia during the time I was there and, uh,
00:11:03
Speaker
he stayed, you know, he literally stayed probably one and a half blocks from where we were. You know what I mean? So the city was shut down. You know what I mean? There was plenty, plenty of hospitals that were living in places. And so we had to basically build a plan to live in.
00:11:17
Speaker
you know, our facility so that we could make sure people got in and out, you know, and we did. And so for me, that's one of my more, you know, really great memories because it didn't really involve anything negative. You know, you were, you were reacting to a positive, you know. Right. Right. What a, what a fun story. So not only did your state win the Super Bowl, you also had the Pope visit. Wow. Yeah.
00:11:38
Speaker
What's next? I was going to say, to this day, I still have the video of the Pope riding by on my cell phone. Because after we had done it and had everybody living there, and we knew he was going to the city, everybody walked to City Line Avenue and watched him go by. So it was incredible.
00:11:53
Speaker
Oh, that's interesting. What a fun story.
Education and Mentorship
00:11:56
Speaker
So you've also earned your degree in safety and health. So at what point did you decide, hey, it's time to go to school and do this? And how did you kind of walk through that? And I'm assuming maybe you were employed at the same time.
00:12:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I had never done anything the easy way, you know, I mean, I, I was not, I did not see the value of education as a high school student. You know what I mean? I did not see the value of education coming out of high school, you know, and so when I got the job at the refinery, you know, within a few years, you know, maybe five years, I'll say, when I became the supervisor, I thought to myself, well, now you need a degree. So I started to pursue, you know, a business degree and, you know, I got my associates and,
00:12:35
Speaker
Around that same time I was still pursuing business, this health and safety job came up and I thought to myself, you probably should stop and figure out what it is you're going to do because if you continue business, business isn't going to really help you in the complete sense. I sought out online schools. There's one in New Jersey called Thomas Edison State University. When I went there, it was called State College.
00:13:02
Speaker
You know, that's in Trenton, you know, and you get in-state rates, you know, and it's an online school. You go up there maybe once or twice a semester and take tests, you know, but it was really good for me because, you know, all of a sudden I went from the guy that saw no purpose in school to, you know, what do you mean you took a point off my paper? You know what I mean? And that's just kind of the way I've been, you know.
00:13:21
Speaker
your pride level and your work has changed. You know what I mean? So now I'm, I'm very much that way. You know what I mean? So, um, you know, and I, I continued that through school and through two kids being born and you know what I mean? And really just have tried to keep, keep hustling, you know, so. Yeah. Right. Right. So who over all of these years in this career path, do you have mentors or have you had mentors that kind of have walked in and out of your life that have helped, um, influence, um, you maybe, uh, one way or the other?
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from a safety perspective, EMT is kind of different than occupational health, right?
00:13:56
Speaker
You know, I was fortunate to partner with at the time at the refinery, they had an outside doctor that they had. And his name was Dr. Michael Bajarski. And he still practices today, you know, and he, in my opinion, you know, does more with less than anybody you can imagine. You know, by that, I mean, you know, his notes are fantastic. You know what I mean? And, you know, sometimes he types them on a typewriter or a computer. You know what I mean? He's not using these glorified EMR systems that
00:14:22
Speaker
give you just regular canned things. And so he really taught me a lot of stuff. And I think more importantly, he gave me confidence in what I was doing. You know what I mean? And that helped me immensely because sometimes you need other people to believe in you, to believe that you're doing well. And I think that
00:14:42
Speaker
on the other side of it, you know, my family, you know, my, my wife was a tremendous supporter of me getting into it. You know what I mean? And always has, I think sometimes even more than me felt that I can do it, you know, you know, so, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, and, and, you know, at the refinery, um, you know, when I was in charge of the emergency response team, my assistant chief, he also believed that I could do it. You know what I mean? And, um, he was a very, very good friend of mine. Um, you know,
00:15:10
Speaker
And, uh, he passed away, you know, about two years ago, um, you know, he was 39 years old and he had two kids, uh, you know, he died of colon cancer. So, you know, for those of you that, you know, have history and stuff like that, you know, it's important for you to know that, uh, you know, just because, you know, you're not 50 years old, you know, or whatever the case may
Tragedy and Responsibility
00:15:30
Speaker
be, you got to keep an eye on that, you know, and so, um, was a major loss for me. You know what I mean? And you know, like I said, that, that those are the pride of the three.
00:15:38
Speaker
big ones. But you know, at English, I had a guy who was not a safety person at all. You know, his name is Harold Strawbridge. And Harold is probably the guru of making everything you talk about in a presentation visual. Right. And so he was very good at, you know, you would go to these people who had no understanding of safety or no understanding of, you know, planning the Pope visit.
00:16:02
Speaker
And he would put pen to paper. And he would make it visual. And they would get it. You know what I mean? I think that we can probably relate to all. He sounds like a great guy. Yeah. I mean, we would speak to people. And we would be like, what do you mean you don't understand? How could you not understand this? You know what I mean? And Harold was able to kind of show me the bridge between, look, you have the knowledge. They don't. And if you get aggravated with them, they shut down. They don't listen to you. You know what I mean? So paint a picture. Yeah, exactly. That's awesome.
00:16:29
Speaker
And I think that was really a tremendous help for me there. Yeah. I had a mentor not in safety either a number of years ago. He's an industrial psychologist. And I just paths crossed in a job at some point. And he was helping with some project. And he became a mentor to me, somebody that I reached out to for a number of years. And he would listen to me kvetch about a job when I was
00:16:56
Speaker
thinking, you know, what am I doing here? Where can I go kind of struggling with it? And he'd paint these pictures in my head that helped me like decide like, what am I going to do next? And I remember one time he said to me, he said, so, Jill, you, you kind of thought that this job was going to be like, you know, like you're, you're in the, in the barn with the race horses and you get to groom the race horse and like brush it every day and make it really shiny and perfect and beautiful to be able to run its race. But
00:17:26
Speaker
In actuality, what I'm hearing you say is you're in the back of the barn shoveling the crap. And I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right. You're so right. And he goes, so what do you want to do? Brush the horse or shovel? Keep shoveling. I'm like, I want to brush the horse. He's like, yeah, out of there. OK, thanks. Nothing to do with safety. But he was just listening to my story and in a compelling way and pushing, pushing me forward.
00:17:51
Speaker
So your job right now is in occupational health. Is that a clinic setting, Joe? Well, so I basically have switched teams, so
Current Role and Strategies
00:18:01
Speaker
to speak. We have gone from trying to keep people safe to I am now in charge of developing a treatment of work injuries plan for a hospital-based system. OK.
00:18:14
Speaker
Um, you know, we're using an urgent care model to bring folks in that are injured, you know, and from other, from outside employers. Correct. Yes. So, you know, one of the things that I think helps me is, you know, I go out to these employers, you know, and I ask questions like, do you have job descriptions, you know, and, you know, what, what are the types of injuries they're facing? You know, how can we help them? How can we partner with them? You know, and I, I, you know, I know about the OSHA logs and things like that, that they're, they're suffering from, you know, where.
00:18:42
Speaker
You know, maybe they have somebody who, you know, is written as an OSHA recordable, but that's because they can't lift more than 50 pounds, but they were a desk worker who was answering a phone and it's not really a restriction. You know what I mean? And for us, you know, like I said that we, we, we genuinely, I think in my group want to be the best. You know what I mean? And, um, it's still a relatively new program, you know, and we're, we're, we're in the South Jersey area.
00:19:04
Speaker
Um, but you know, I think you have a lot of ambitious people who see this as an opportunity to, to be the best, you know, and then I think, like I said, for me, um, that's how I approach everything. I always want to try to be the best at what I do. So you get to do a little bit of prevention work with the companies that you reach out to, and then you're also helping guide them through the workers' compensation process when someone's injured. Is that accurate to what you're doing now?
00:19:31
Speaker
Yes, and we bring new companies on. When we bring those companies on, we talk to them about what the state laws are as far as workers' compensation. We talk to them about, do they have job descriptions? They can supply us. We give them ideas of different policies they may want to create. And some of these companies have never even thought about what happens if somebody has an injury and then they're restricted.
00:19:58
Speaker
leads them to basically say, okay, go home and when you're better, come back. And, you know, that gives them a lot of time to watch the attorney ads that flash up and say, have you been injured at work? And then the people go, you know what I have, and I've been wronged, you know what I mean? And that hurts companies. And, you know, and I think, you know, like I said, there's a, there's a time and place for that. But I also think, you know, if the company's buying in on the, on the people and they want them to get better, it's really good to get them back into work. So, you know, I have,
00:20:23
Speaker
plenty of boilerplate policies that I always say to people, if you want that policy, I'll send it to you. You know what I mean? And so I really just try to be a little bit different in that sense, you know?
00:20:31
Speaker
Right. And it also is hard on the employees' morale if they're at home, you know, not feeling like they're contributing in a meaningful way. And I think you're right. I think many employers just think, okay, so the employees hurt their off work and aren't thinking about the ramifications, you know, the ramifications of the employees' morale, the ramification of I'm paying, you know, lost wage benefits now.
00:20:57
Speaker
You know the ramification of I have to find somebody else to do that job and fill in for now and you know I think the thing employers are still on that learning curve of oh really we could bring them back and but it doesn't have to be in their current role or it could be a different version of their current role and Helping helping them helping them see that I think is really powerful
00:21:18
Speaker
And I think it's always difficult for employers to understand that in their minds, they're not saying, well, we're paying the salary technically one way or another. It may not be directly.
00:21:30
Speaker
You know, that will go to your insurance and your insurance it'll create, you know, a loss and you may have a poor loss ratio at that point. You know what I mean? So there's value in them being around, even if, you know, maybe they're not doing everything they could do. You know what I mean? So yeah. Yeah. So when you're reaching out and talking with employers now, are you generally working with management teams? You're working with safety people or who's your, who's your primary contact?
00:21:54
Speaker
So, I mean, it varies to be honest with you because South Jersey is a wide scope of different types of business. We have everything from, you know, refineries and industry all the way down to, you know, mom and pop farms that are very seasonal, you know, so it can really depend on who, what type of business you're dealing with, you know, and I think, you know, I bring the same approach to everybody that, you know, we want you to give us a chance. We want, we want to do right by you. And, you know, we also want a lot of feedback as to, you know, how we can get better.
00:22:21
Speaker
Um, you know, with the safety professionals, you know, I, I try to speak the safety language because I think that that's what they want to do. You know, they want to hear that the person that's, you know, overseeing the program understands where they're coming from, you know, and if they, if they think they're getting a sales pitch, then that's not what they're interested in. So, um, you know, I want to.
00:22:39
Speaker
I want them to understand how we're different, so to speak. Right. So are you able to spend some time in some of these employment settings with some of the safety professionals, maybe looking at some of the risk exposures, particularly when bringing people back? How can we engineer something out? How can we make an improvement to ensure it doesn't happen? The same thing doesn't happen to somebody else. Are you able to do that sometimes?
00:23:01
Speaker
When we bring on employers, I usually ask, you know, to see their facility, you know, to get an idea of a tour. And I've really seen some neat places, you know what I mean? And stuff that, you know, you really, you know, you just don't know that that's what they do, you know, on the outside. You know what I mean? So I feel fortunate in that regard because, you know, you understand at that point that some of these jobs aren't out of the scope of what they could do. And some of it is, you know, some of it is, you know,
00:23:25
Speaker
a lot harder than I think sometimes the job description say it is, you know what I mean? So it could go either way, you know. Right, right. Yeah, I worked in occupational medicine for a while as well, doing similar work exactly to what you're talking about. And, you know, my eyes being able to bring that picture back to the provider who was writing the restrictions was really powerful because the providers don't always have time to go and do tours of work environments to find out, you know, what is it that this employee is going to go back to?
00:23:54
Speaker
But our eyes get to do that. We can paint that picture to be that partner between the employer and the provider. And that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So in all the years you've been doing this safety, I've got to ask this question because I think this is sometimes a funny answer from different people.
Engagement and Passion
00:24:13
Speaker
What's the craziest thing you've ever done to build street cred with your workforce in different jobs?
00:24:20
Speaker
You know, I think that I've always been a hands-on person, you know what I mean? Cause I came from that refinery where I was a production worker, you know? So at the refinery, it was easy for me. I would just go out on the production floor and talk to people and, you know, listen to what issues they were having and things like that. You know, it became more difficult for me, you know, at the healthcare facility, cause I had never done healthcare before, you know what I mean? And so that meant, you know, walking unit to unit, talking to residents, you know, talking to everybody and actually.
00:24:48
Speaker
Believe it or not, as I said, those residents were very, very smart. You know, they just unfortunately were, you know, quad and paraplegic. So, um, I would actually ask them to tell me when they would find safety issues, you know what I mean? And they actually became reporters for me, you know what I mean? So that was very powerful. Um, you know, when I, when I got the job at, you know, the HVAC company, you know, I had a quick company truck and I would just go to places, you know what I mean? I would go to locations and I would talk to people and I would talk about, you know,
00:25:16
Speaker
how, you know, I want to make sure that they don't get hurt, you know, they have to think about what they're doing, you know what I mean? And, you know, I really just always, again, tried to do the right thing, you know, and I had a lot of risk experience there too, you know, so when we would have, you know, significant losses, you know, or a water loss or a, you know, a loss like that, that I felt it was very significant impactful on someone else's life, you know, I would even go out to those and talk to those people because, you know, the last thing you wanted was, you know,
00:25:41
Speaker
Here's an insurance adjuster, and the company doesn't really care about you. You know what I mean? And so I always wanted to put myself in the position of how would I feel if that was my house? Or how would I feel if I got hurt at work? So I've always approached that. In my current role, it's still new, but I think a lot of my experience is carrying over into this role because it's stuff that people don't really know. In the order of operations, we'll say,
00:26:06
Speaker
how to approach an employer and what are the things you can say to get them to listen to you, you know, and have them, you know, you know, come on board or at least wanna meet with you, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Joanne, your and your path, career path and safety, I'm interested to know, like, how did you go about, or how do you think it happened, maybe accidentally finding what your niche is in safety? You know, when we look back at,
00:26:32
Speaker
at our career and all that safety and health encompasses, it can be so vast and often overwhelming to people like, am I ever going to learn it all? And the answer is no, you won't. And, you know, sometimes you kind of have to sit with yourself and go like, you know, what am I really good at or what do I really like? And what what does what did that look like for you in finding that niche, assuming you've found it now?
00:26:57
Speaker
And I think I have, you know, I do enjoy the occupational health setting because, you know, it really is kind of impactful to people that, you know, have already, um, unfortunately had an incident. You know what I mean? Hopefully you can prevent those, but you know, where I'm at now, you know, you're dealing with folks that have been injured. You know what I mean? And so for me, um, you know, like you said, uh, you know, it's such a wide scope of things, you know what I mean? And I, I,
00:27:24
Speaker
I enjoyed a lot of different aspects of safety, but I just knew what I liked the most, you know what I mean? And I just say when, you know, people are getting into it, you know, try to figure out what the parts are that you like, you know what I mean? Because there's a lot of different parts, you know, and I think that, you know, um, you can worry too much about trying to learn them all, you know what I mean? And unfortunately it's, you know, you can see those job descriptions that have, we want a safety manager that has 30 years experience in those process, safety management and occupational health and everything else. But the reality is, you know,
00:27:54
Speaker
that, you know, everybody starts somewhere, you know what I mean? And you have to start and be good at what you do and take that with you. And then maybe you're on to something that's a little bit different, you know, and you take that with you, you know, and you build up a portfolio of things that, you know, you know, and are good at, you know, and I think it makes you better overall, you know, so yeah, agreed, agreed. Yeah, absolutely. I can see that. I mean, for me, I think the most important thing, you know, in safety, you know, regardless what, what direction you go in,
00:28:23
Speaker
is you have to be passionate about it, you know what I mean? So like if you go and you see these speakers sometimes at the conferences, there are some that just really do a fantastic job, you know what I mean? And they're very passionate about what they do. And sometimes I watch them in all of how passionate they are because they're way better than me, you know what I mean? But you can't, to me,
00:28:47
Speaker
Safety in general is not a job. You know what I mean? It's the responsibility. You know what I mean? So you got to understand there's people relying on you to do the right thing for them. You know what I mean? So it's a much higher level of responsibility than, hey, we have to make that widget and get it out by the end of the month.
00:29:03
Speaker
Yeah. Safety is a job is a, is a responsibility, not a job. That is, that is awesome. That that's a quotable quote, Joe. I love that. I love that. So when you are, um, when you're stuck and you need some help with who, what are your resources?
Networking and Communication
00:29:19
Speaker
Where do you usually go for information? You know, how do you, how do you, how do you find answers to things that you don't know?
00:29:25
Speaker
Well, you know, there's a couple of different things that I've done. You know, I, I have a big presence on LinkedIn, you know what I mean? And so that gives me a wide variety of people I can talk to. Um, you know, I think that, you know, you could never be afraid to talk to your boss. You know what I mean? That that's a relationship you need, you need to have, because sometimes the things you're up against have nothing to do with safety. They have to do with workplace politics or things like that, you know, and ultimately.
00:29:50
Speaker
If you're the one leading that charge on that battle, you might be the one that's identified as the problem. But if you escalate it through the proper channels, you a lot of times can have meaningful progress on that. And I think that everybody has varying degrees of aggravation and safety. I mean, I don't think there's anybody that can say they haven't been told no, or they haven't been aggravated with the way that somebody's done something or any of that.
00:30:16
Speaker
You have to turn that into something constructive, you know, and you have to kind of learn from when you did, you know what I mean? And so for me to see her and say, I've never done it, you know what I mean? Would be foolish, you know what I mean? And I think that that's, you know, you have to learn and better yourself each time.
00:30:31
Speaker
and say, well, these are the areas I can improve on next time. Yeah, your point on not being afraid to reach out to your boss, I think is really good advice to anyone listening. I know I've made that mistake a number, maybe three, four jobs ago.
00:30:48
Speaker
that I can think of. I really was kind of afraid to talk to the administrator of the place where I was working. Sort of felt intimidated, like maybe I didn't have a right to have a voice with that particular person. And the manager that I was reporting to at the time carried, she was the one carrying my message to the ultimate decision maker. And that didn't work so well. You know, it's kind of like playing that telephone game with the cups and the yarn.
00:31:15
Speaker
You know, like what's the message going to be on the other end? And I learned very much the hard way that having someone else carry your message doesn't always work. Right. And I made a promise to myself after that job. I'm like, I will never do that again.
00:31:31
Speaker
I will, I will, I will be uncomfortable, but I'm going to get comfortable being uncomfortable and I will, you know, I will make those relationships and I will find ways to be able to speak directly to the decision makers. And it's, it's served me well, but gosh, it's hard, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, like you said, it is intimidating. Um, you know, but.
00:31:54
Speaker
your message gets diluted, you know what I mean? Sometimes, you know, if you don't do it, and sometimes, you know, the only message that they've gotten is, hey, you have a sense of urgency, they have no idea why you have that sense of urgency. And it sounds like you're yelling, the sky is falling when really you have a very good reason for what you're saying, you know, and it's being missed by that person, you know, and I think
00:32:16
Speaker
you know, you talk about going, you know, talking up to people and making sure they get the message. But, um, one of the most important things I learned, you know, when I was at the refinery in charge of that emergency response team was to also talk down to your folks, make sure those that report to you know what you expect from them, you know, and I'm by, by example, I would have meetings with my emergency response team every month, right? And I would always say to people, you know, the exact same statement over and over again,
00:32:43
Speaker
If we ever get into a situation where there's, you know, a fire, there's a spill, there's some sort of, you know, incident and you can't find the person that's missing.
00:32:52
Speaker
and you can't safely get into that area, then you need to protect yourself and get back out. You know what I mean? Because there's no value in having two groups of people that are lost. And so, you know, it would almost seem like people would look at me like, yeah, right. Nothing's ever going to happen. And, you know, that's just complete silly. We're invincible. Yeah, we're invincible. It's never going to happen until, you know, I can remember one specific morning, you know, we had an incident where, you know, chemicals were pumped into the wrong tank and there was, you know, a hydrogen explosion. You know what I mean?
00:33:21
Speaker
you know those chemicals created you know a cloud you know what i mean as soon as the tank exploded right and if the cloud you know pretty much blocked the entire view of a camera within seconds so you know it was very difficult to know what was going on i wasn't at the plant i was actually at home right and i remember you know i was responding to the plant because i heard them you know dispatch the local fire company and stuff and i
00:33:43
Speaker
On my way in, I could hear, you know, my team operating, you know what I mean? But they were doing all the things I told them to do. You know what I mean? So they were searching for the person and they pulled back out. You know what I mean? Well, here we had lost two people in that incident that we couldn't account for, right? But they had ended up going out the back door. You know what I mean? And then, you know.
00:34:01
Speaker
If I had sent my team in to try to find them, you know what I mean? We would add more problems. And so then once those people were accounted for, everybody was still in that really hyped up mode that we got to go in and we got to solve this problem now. You know what I mean? But the thing is your responsibility is to your people. You know what I mean? And to make sure they're safe. And the reality was there was nobody in there that was, you know, at risk. You know what I mean? We had a building that was damaged. We had problems.
00:34:24
Speaker
You know, we need to just slow down and make sure that when I sent people in, it was safe, you know, so we had to shut all the utilities off. We had to shut, you know, all the, uh, you know, things that were coming through the pipes off, but then we went in and it was safe. You know what I mean? And I.
00:34:37
Speaker
To me, that was one of the more meaningful things that I realized, wow, you have to say things over and over and over again until it gets into somebody's head because saying it once doesn't mean anything. Right. Yeah. So repeat, like you said, the message, remembering to carry our message upstream, but also downstream as well and being repetitive about it, you know.
00:34:57
Speaker
the airlines do that really well, right? Yeah, absolutely. We're getting that message every time. Put on your own oxygen mask first before you help someone else. Right. And all those messages, which essentially is part of what the message was for you that day and how proud you must have been of your team. I definitely was. And like I said, to me, that was one of the larger successes, you know, with emergency response. You know, like I said, you know, for me, it was a valuable lesson in teaching people. And I think, you know, I don't know
00:35:26
Speaker
you know, about your career, but I always never, I never thought I was going to be a teacher or the educator. You know, that just seems so foreign to me. You know what I mean? And I was just not going to do it. You know what I mean? And then, uh, you know, I became a CPR instructor and you know, I've emerged the response team. I was doing classes with them for me. It was very important at that point to realize that, you know, I was no longer the, the new guy or the young guy anymore. You know, it's important to pass knowledge down. You know what I mean? And, um, you know, that has been something I really try to do now, you know,
00:35:56
Speaker
It was a realization that's probably come to me in the last, I'd say maybe four to five years where I have less and less mentors and I become the one that people are reaching out to. And it's a big responsibility and sometimes it's really hard and you think back, did I answer that correctly?
00:36:18
Speaker
Or, you know, someone was asking me questions last week, I was guiding an employer through a workplace fatality they had had. And there were some things I had, you know, hung up the phone, I'm like, oh, I need to tell them that, you know, I'm like, the onus of being the one with the knowledge is a pretty big responsibility. So I ended up picking up the phone, I'm like, okay, and this and this and this and this. And they're like, okay, thank you. But
00:36:44
Speaker
But it feels, it feels sometimes like a bigger responsibility to be in that, that teaching mode. Then I was in the learning mode way back, way back when, which seems kind of crazy.
Prevention and Ethical Considerations
00:36:55
Speaker
But you know, our work and our work and safety is preventative. You know, you've worked both on the reaction side in the work that you've done and in the prevention side. And you're talking about, you know, this chemical release you had in the plant, you really leaned into your prevention work.
00:37:09
Speaker
And I think it's one of the hardest things in our profession to try to sell or convince people that prevention is where the rubber meets the road. So when things go sideways, you've got that to lean into. And I think that's such a hard concept for us to continue knocking on the door every day and talking about prevention when everybody thinks it can't happen to them. Right. And I think that that is true. People think it can't happen to them. And then, you know,
00:37:39
Speaker
I think to a certain degree, depending on how you're wired. And, you know, I think emergency response people are wired this way. Response is fun. You know what I mean? And it really does hype you up. And I think anybody that's ever, you know, had the tones hit or been dispatched can tell you that there's just an uncanny adrenaline rush that you get from it. You know what I mean? But it's not sustainable either. You know what I mean? And eventually, you know, you burn out from that. You know what I mean? And so, you know, for me, you know, the calls that
00:38:09
Speaker
9, 10 o'clock midnight, 1, 2 in the morning, where you're hearing about all these incidents.
00:38:14
Speaker
You know, they, they can wear on you. You know what I mean? And so like, you have to make sure that you're doing everything you can do to prevent those things, you know? Right. Right. Fighting fires, literally and figuratively, um, it's, it's, it's good. It's important work. We need it, but it also doesn't build anything long-term. Sure. Absolutely. And so we have to find that balance in our careers, right? Where we're building things that are sustainable and, uh, and lasting at the same time.
00:38:40
Speaker
So, um, Joe, we, we, you and I have both been talking about different jobs. We've had a career changes we've made. Um, and I, I know that sometimes I'm getting questions from other people in our, in our career, um, who are asking like, when do I know, when do I know it's the right time to move on? How do I make those decisions? What, what has that looked like for you?
00:39:01
Speaker
Well, you know, actually, it doesn't always smack you in the face. You know what I mean? Sometimes you put up with a lot before you realize it's too much. You know, and, you know, I listened to a podcast by you actually. And in that podcast, you know, there were there were things that were said that and it was like my aha moment at this job, you know, and the job it was basically, you know,
00:39:23
Speaker
When you're not being listened to, you know, there's no sign of change, you know what I mean? And I think, you know, you're being sort of rebuffed in all of your ideas. You know, there is, you know, it's time to look elsewhere because, you know, your impact is not meaningful, you know what I mean? And so, you know, for the other thing, I think, to be more specific was, you know, I think when you talked about ethics being compromised, you know, and I think that
00:39:47
Speaker
In safety, we're asked to be flexible at times, right? Sometimes we can't always solve every single problem at that exact moment and keep things running because we're, you know, we need our companies to make money, but at the same time we need them to be safe. So it's always that delicate balance, you know, but if you can check all three boxes, you know what I mean? That not being listened to, there's no sign of change and your ethics are being compromised. I think that you have to start to think maybe this isn't the place for me because
00:40:13
Speaker
the corporate culture there is not conducive to your success. You know what I mean? And so I just, I remember how impactful that, that those particular, I actually wrote it down and I kept looking at it and I go, is this me? Is this really what's happening to me? You know what I mean? And I realized it was, you know what I mean? And so I just decided, you know, you needed to get out. You know what I mean? And so, you know, fortunately, like I said, I had had,
00:40:36
Speaker
you know, another opportunity to come along and it worked out well for me, you know, and that's, you know, that's what I can tell people. I mean, you're going to encounter no a lot as a safety professional. And just because you encounter no, that doesn't mean you'll leave the job because no is part of the job, right? Because ultimately, if you had your way, you would install the greatest safety system ever. And you know, you'd have no injuries, you know, you might buy all this PPE and but there's not
00:41:01
Speaker
There's a business side to that too. You know what I mean? You can't, you can't do everything. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, it's not, it's not when someone says no to you, it's when, you know, they're not willing to listen to you at all. You know what I mean? They're not willing to listen to the problem either. They're in denial that the problem even exists and you know, that, that becomes when you have to start to think to yourself, well, if my purpose is to identify problems and solve problems and now no one's listening to me, you know, no one's willing to,
00:41:28
Speaker
solve those problems with me, what am I really here to do? I think that it impacts you professionally if you stay at a place that bad things happen to people solely because they stayed around. Think about any of these major incidents that involve companies and you start to think, well, what about their safety professional? What happened to them after all that? I'm sure.
00:41:54
Speaker
from a professional standpoint, it's very damaging to your career. But remember I said, for me, it's always been about confidence, right? And if you felt a certain way and you felt like somebody wasn't agreeing with you, and maybe it's as simple as this needs to change, or maybe it's as extreme as you think there's gonna be a fatality there, and you express that and somebody does not respond to you,
00:42:21
Speaker
You're really in a position where that is not doing anybody any good. And if what you think is going to happen happens and you're not being listened to, you've damaged yourself, you know? Yeah. I mean, beautifully said, you know, no is definitely a part of the job. And then what do we do with those no's as we're learning and figuring out how to build business cases to redirect, represent,
00:42:47
Speaker
uh you know what needs to happen and i think you're right when we get those hard no's repeatedly and our ethics are being compromised because of it um yeah it's time to it's time to move on and the you know the great thing about our our profession
00:43:02
Speaker
is that there are opportunities. If people have the ability to be flexible maybe with their geographics and depending on where they're living, there are so many safety positions right now. There's so many people retiring out that started in the way back when OSHA was first being adopted. I'm contacted pretty often
00:43:25
Speaker
for people who are like, how do we recruit? Where do we look? Where do we go to find safety jobs? And so I think the good news is that there's a place for us and there's opportunities for us to figure out what's our niche and how can we get there? How can we get there?
00:43:42
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. So Joe, um, you've, you've done a lot of things. You've done a lot of things to be proud of, um, what's maybe, maybe we can close with, um, sharing a story of something that you've accomplished that you're really proud of. Yeah. I think, you know, um, you learn, you know, uh, both professionally and personally that, you know, there's a right and wrong way to do
Personal Growth and Reflection
00:44:05
Speaker
things. You know what I mean? And I think that for me, you know, I've grown as a person, you know, as I've gotten
00:44:12
Speaker
older, especially after the loss of my friend, you know what I mean? And it really had a very negative impact on me. And I would say that be kind to people, understand where they're coming from, understand that everybody's fighting a battle. And so the approach you need to take
00:44:33
Speaker
professionally as a safety professional is that, you know, maybe they're not wearing their safety glasses because they're so flustered that their kid had something happen to them that morning, you know what I mean? Or, you know, maybe they forgot that valve was open because something else is going on. And that doesn't mean you don't, you know, follow through with discipline and things like that. But, you know, sometimes you have to walk a mile in someone else's shoes to really understand that, you know, people don't, like I said before, people don't intend to screw up, you know what I mean? I don't think anyone has ever woken up and said,
00:45:02
Speaker
I'm going to screw up today, you know what I mean? And I think that that has been probably the most important thing both personally and professionally I've learned because I have two kids and I think that my wife and I, we constantly are
00:45:18
Speaker
uh, you know, interested in, you know, how they're doing in school and all the various, you know, activities they do, you know what I mean? And I think that for us, we know when a mistake happens, you know, it's, it's a learning opportunity, right? You know, and so, you know, rather than yell and scream and all that, sometimes you have to kind of revert to just teaching and teaching is really important. Yeah.
00:45:38
Speaker
Right. What is this? What is this here to teach me? Exactly. Why is this happening? What is what is the message? Yep. Yeah. Sounds like you're very proud of your growth in your own humanity. And what a perfect, what a perfect, what a perfect reflection on yourself. I think that's great. And meeting people where they are. Exactly. Meeting people where they are. That's wonderful.
00:45:59
Speaker
You know, be humble, right? Because I always say to people when I, when I go from job to job, I've had a number of times where I walk into an office and somebody says, is this okay? And I always say to them, you know, I started on a refinery floor that was a hundred degrees.
00:46:12
Speaker
I moved into an office that had a center block wall. My next job had windows, you know what I mean? And so be appreciative for what you have because every little bit of it is something. It's a mark on how you've progressed, you know what I mean? And like you said, always reflect at where you came from, you know what I mean? Because if you don't, it may feel like you've made no difference whatsoever. But like I said, there's a lot of people I've learned a lot from in various organizations
00:46:43
Speaker
are all over, you know, talk, listen to the ASSE and listen to the national safety council and, you know, listen to your, um, you know, messagings. And you can learn a lot by just approaching any of these, you know, webinars or, you know, um, you know, podcasts by simply thinking to yourself, I'm going to learn something, you know, by being here, even though I think I know everything about this topic, I'm going to sit and learn, you know, and that was the approach I took when,
00:47:09
Speaker
I realized it was time to get out with that job because it was sort of, you know, what does the new safety professional need to know? And I remember thinking to myself, well, I'm not a new safety professional, but this sounds like a good podcast. I'm going to listen to it. You know what I mean? And I walked out of there with the most important message of my career. So, you know, that's awesome. That's awesome. Joe, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge. Um, I know it's going to resonate with people. Thank you so much.
00:47:36
Speaker
Cool. Yeah, I definitely appreciate you guys having me and always available on LinkedIn for anybody that wants to connect. I am not somebody that filters. I want to try to have as many connections as I can, and I want to try to be as impactful as I can. So thank you.
00:47:49
Speaker
Excellent. Thanks, Joe. Thank you all so much for joining in and listening today. And thank you for the work you all do to make sure your workers make it home safe every day. You can listen to all of our episodes at vividlearningsystems.com or subscribe in the podcast player of your choosing. If you have a suggestion for a guest, including yourself, please contact me at social at vividlearningsystems.com. Until next time, thanks for listening.